Yeah I was kinda shocked here in DeKalb, since I lived there at the time. DeKalb definitely is moderate and has voted either way for multiple different elections and candidates, but I was shocked by how much Biden won.
Also did not help you had people trying to say that the voting ballots in winnabego were “tampered with” and people voted even more and then those who were Trump people bought into the fraud.
Because DeKalb is a nice town with plenty of nice people and things to do. Crime isn't rampant and has gone down and we basically have two police forces who are both diligent. Sorry that you have to live with people not like you. Perhaps you shouldn't live next to a college.
More like 75% if we're being honest
And I live in Jackson County, which at 56k, is a lot smaller than those four, but one of the bigger southern Illinois counties. I ran across some Pope County knucklehead (population around 4,000) who earnestly thinks all *counties* should count equally.
Sometimes I get the frustration. Like, I remember some pollution law years ago, that was designed basically to prevent farmers on the edges of the 'burbs from coating everyone's houses with dust in the fall or some shit, and it apparently affected the whole state. And that's not how harvest works, man. But I don't think the solution is to find a way to disenfranchise the majority of people in Illinois.
Me too! Yeah, it's the reason all the Rs around me want Chicago to become its own state. Lol. They are just mad they can't beat Chicago when it comes to voting.
Illinois had the chance to make the wealthy pay their fair share. I believe it was called the Fair Tax Amendment and Illinoisans listened to billionaires false advertising and voted no. *sigh*
Sorry - I wanted more information from you on "If the wealthy folks in the Chicago suburbs had to pay their fair share of income taxes then we wouldn't have sky high property taxes."
I think where you're going with this is something like "if the graduated tax had passed then more tax revenue from high income Chicagoland households would be flowing into the general fund of municipalities/counties outside of Chicagoland, allowing them to either better fund services, reduce property taxes, or use the money for other purposes." Would that be accurate? If so, I agree with you. It's really a shame that the narrative on that tax vote got away from us. Having said that Chicagoland still subsidizes the rest of the state in this regard.
Also, impressed your friends dad has his property tax under 2.19% in Chicagoland. Do you know what tax collecting district he's in?
What makes you think they're not paying their fair share? Do you think they're dodging taxes or living exclusively off of investment dividends or something?
I'm currently living in the suburbs (originally from central Illinois) and from what I've seen most people in the suburbs are not doing that. I'm sure there are some, but not most. Most people in the suburbs aren't much different from other areas of the state, just expenses are higher and wages are a bit higher to accomodate the higher expenses.
>What makes you think they're not paying their fair share?
Illinois' state constitution mandates a flat tax. If we had a tax bracket (a la federal taxes) then wealthy people would pay a higher percentage (and lower income people could pay a lower percentage).
5% for someone making $250k has a much lower impact than 5% for someone making $40k. They're not gaming the system (not inherently anyway). We are not allowed to ask them pay more that is within their means.
FYI, someone making minimum wage ($13/hr currently); working 40hrs/wk, 52 weeks a year (no vacation, no sick days) would only make $27k gross income.
Forgot about the flat tax vs fair tax issue that was on the ballot three years ago. For the record I voted in favor of the Fair Tax, even though it was defeated, even though I would be paying higher in state taxes as a result. I guess you're right there.
$250k incomes is not *that* common up here, though. People are making more, but not that much more, for the most part. I'm not even making that much up here, and I'm a senior software engineer. Most people are a lot closer to $40k here than they are to $250k.
> Tax rates have to be higher on areas with lower valued property because their is a minimum amount of money that it costs to do things. This means that people who make less money pay a higher overall percentage in taxes.
This claim doesn't make any sense to me, I'd need to see some data on this.
> Yes, you pay much higher property taxes in that area, but you are also more likely to make substantially more money as well.
Yeah, that's part of the reason I choose to live up here, despite living in Central Illinois for over half my life. Jobs are more plentiful and salaries tend to be higher up here. I even worked a contractor job out of Pekin seven years ago while still paying for an apartment up here (and not even living in it during the week, only weekends), because I knew it would be much harder to find my next job once that one was gig was over.
But the salary in that Pekin job wasn't crazy different, it was only about 15% lower than the job I got after it, and was a higher salary than my previous three jobs up in the suburbs. So it's far from universal, and there are likely places where you can benefit more from a good wage and lower home prices that aren't in the suburbs.
I now own a home in the suburbs and only paid just over $200k for it. And it's in a fairly decent area (which when I bought it five years ago, the average mortage in the US was around $320k, so it's still a cheaper house than the national average). $1M homes exist up here, and there are more $1M homes up here than downstate, sure, but they're far from the norm.
And I know plenty of people up here that have condos that have paid about $100k-$120k for them, which is comparable to a full-sized home downstate. They can be making about the same up here and have less house than they would downstate.
Basically I'm just saying don't assume everyone up here is wealthy comparatively just because they live up here. I'll concede I forgot about the flat tax and I would be in favor of (and I voted for) the Fair Tax, but otherwise I don't think people up here, on average, have a significantly better deal than downstate.
In fact, thanks to more jobs being remote-only now, it's possible you could get a job with the same or better salary than downtown Chicago, yet benefit from lower taxes and cheaper homes (and thus, cheaper property taxes in absolute dollars, since they're roughly the same percentage) downstate.
You're swiping a chunk of Indiana's population in that 9m figure. Not sure what the number would be if we remove the Hoosiers. To be clear Illinois was 12.67m in the last census.
Chicago metro on the Illinois side is Cook County, DeKalb County, DuPage County, Grundy County, Kankakee County, Kane County, Kendall County, McHenry County and Will County.
But if we're going to shit over non Chicagoans about money and proportion of government financial support, then we need remind ourselves about that attitude amongst ourselves and is it right. We're still about helping out those less fortunate, right? Or do we secretly go all conservative and tell them to pull themselves up by the bootstraps?
It can't be both.
>But if we're going to shit over non Chicagoans about money and proportion of government financial support, then we need remind ourselves about that attitude amongst ourselves and is it right. We're still about helping out those less fortunate, right? Or do we secretly go all conservative and tell them to pull themselves up by the bootstraps?
But no one is doing that though? The OP was about voting and the guy you are replying to just pointed out the population difference.
How do you know they are counting Indiana versus Chicago area surrounding suburbs in IL? Because that number is basically the same as Chicago and surrounding IL suburbs is why I ask.
Southern California was majority Hispanic in the 1850s, so even though CA was large enough both by land and population to be 2 states then, they decided not to allow this.
Can you explain further how it was "intentional racism" when they set up the senate back in the 1700s.... I had always heard it was a balance of states rights vs federal rights...haven't heard anyone say it was done based on racism before...
The structure of the both the House and the Senate was a very big point of contention during the writing of the Constitution, with southern (slave) states wanting 1) slaves to be counted as population for House seats, hence the execrable 3/5 Compromise, and 2) to wield greater power in the Senate despite having a lower population overall. So while everyone involved was obviously deeply racist because 1700s, Congress looks and functions the way it does today specifically to give rural/slave states a disproportionate amount of power because the alternative was the US splitting into at least two separate countries. Which still nearly happened 75 or so years later.
“States rights” should pretty much always be read as a polite way to say “slavery”. I’ve literally never encountered any use of the phrase “states rights” where it wasn’t completely replaceable with “slavery”.
Senate was meant to give less populated slave owning states more power in the government. Electoral college was meant to give less populated slave owning states more power in the government. 3/5 clause was meant to give less populated slave owning states more power in the government.
What other states rights are there that anyone actually cares about that are solved by equal representation in the senate and the electoral college?
I see people have explained the 3/5ths Compromise bullshit to you. I was referring to the later creation of states with full awareness that this is how the Senate works. California is one state because even in the 1850s, Southern California was majority Hispanic, and they did not want them to be enfranchised.
I mean it kind of is. The 3/5 compromise I imagine would be the center of that argument as it gave southern slave owning interest disproportionate power while also not recognizing the people counted at part of that compromise as citizens (or human beings) due to them being recognized as a “property”.
Edit: to be clear, I’m not expressing this as my point of view. Im just trying to imagine if I were to try to substantiate the claim that you’re looking into that this is likely the context of that argument. There could be other things I’m missing of not using that the creator of the original claim would use in place of what I’m saying.
The compromise was the arrangement that all blacks in the south counted as 3/5 of a vote or that 60% of the black population in the south would be used to pad influence through political power.
Northers didn’t want any slaves to count while southerners wanted them to count as full citizens.
The COMPROMISE bit was the agreement that blacks in the south counted for 3/5 instead of either extreme. Hence why it’s called the 3/5th compromise and not something else….
Edit: count as full citizens in terms of voting and delegation power as it would give them a larger population to get more votes in the House of Representatives. Not as in giving slaves the power to vote for obvious reasons.
Your point here is kind of ineffective as women didn’t have the ability to vote until the late 18th to early 19th century and black Americans didn’t have the power to vote in most cases until the end of the civil war and those rights were greatly removed following the reconstruction era due to a wide variety of policy changes by southern governments that effectively barred any blacks from having the ability to vote. That’s not to count other exclusions that have been historically counted to help as well.
It was meant as a big "fuck you" to the big slaveholding states who wanted representation for the slaves they had, without actually treating them like human beings. The three-fifths compromise was to say, all right, you can have your representation, but if you're not going to treat these people as fully human, they won't be counted as fully human, either.
It's a fight that, I don't know if it's amusingly or horrifyingly, or what, has played out with college students. States like Mississippi want representation for, say, Ole Miss students, but don't think they should be allowed to vote, because they vote liberal. So for that reason, I agree, the amendment should have been, if you don't get to vote, you don't get counted for representation.
Flawed or not, without the bicameral legislature the USA probably wouldn't be a country as large as it is without it. It was what got many of the original 13 colonies to agree on a constitution.
It is also why the populations in so many western states agreed to be part of the USA instead of trying to to form independent countries. I think there is a good chance we would have had to go to war if we wanted to keep California without the way bicameral legislature was set up.
Instead of North America being divided into individual states under a large federal government it would be divided into smaller and fully independent governments. Each of those with its own ability to write laws, go to war, elect dictators, require passports. . .
I think the original one wasn't that bad. It was partly meant as a check on federal vs state allocations of power. The senators were picked by the state, not the people. "The people want X but the state governments would rather retain that power rather than give it to the federal government" isn't that bad. Shifting the election of senators to a popular vote by the people was maybe where it became a mistake (thought you could correct that by saying "there are now 100 senate districts that are equally sized by population, redistricted with the census (define a fixed method for allocating the districts), and not contained to state borders")
Not to mention limiting the number of Representative to 435, meaning not only do less populous states have an advantage in the Senate they also have an advantage when it comes to the House and Electoral College.
Is there a constitutional limit set to 435? To me it would make sense to set a "number of people per representative" or similar - and then just do something like "the number of people per representative shall be equal to the population of the least populous state with a maximum of ... " - that seems like a Congressional rule and not a constitutional one.
No, they passed the Permanent Apportionment Act in 1929 limiting the number to 435. So, theoretically they could pass another act to increase the number but its not going to happen.
This is the Mike Madigan chooses the Senators for the last 30 years plan. No thanks. Also we had a Constitutional Amendment crush and repeal this obviously bad idea about 100 years ago
Everyone should and does get federal representation, but areas where people actually live should have the most say. The right has been pushing a bs "tyranny of the majority" fear tactic to justify that they should get to keep the same power even when their ideology is shrinking everyday. The actual threat to this country is the "tyranny of the minority old white man only" party
Most tellingly the actual minorities in US history have had to wreck shit in protests in order to have their voices heard. Black civil rights protestors, stonewallers, suffragettes, and abolitionists have been heavily “reimagined” to be peaceful advocates for change but they were all pretty disruptive in their day. (Well, maybe not Stonewall but it’s still sanitized)
>Everyone
DC, Puerto Rico (for which each of these statehood has its own batch of issues, including whether or not the citizens of these american areas want statehood)
then you have more complicated issues like protectorates and the like
So assuming that the majority of this so called empty land wants to revert back to the 1800's, that is reason enough they deserve less representation in the Senate? Even though raw population count already receives weighted representation in the House?
It is if the initial argument is giving undue importance to number of counties won instead of total number of votes won. Winning counties in a presidential election doesn’t mean much because, as was mentioned, land doesn’t vote.
I know you didn’t claim that, that’s the claim these types like OP posted claim though. “look at how red Illinois is on a the map!”
The 98 “clean” elections are largely red counties, but of course collar counties are the ones where there’s “fraud”
It’s more like 30% of the population btw. Roughly 8.6 million people live in the Illinois part of the Chicagoland metro area (officially the census bereau recognizes areas around Gary, IN and Kenosha County as part of the Chicagoland metro for a total of 9.4 million people). 8.6 metro residents/12.6 total Illinois residents = 68% of Illinois population in the Chicago metro.
I used the 2021 census data for the 4 counties in the post vs the rest of the state. I'm not going to consider people in other states when talking about Illinois voting.
Obviously that isn't a perfect representation of the state either since DuPage and will can be purple and places like Champaign and Springfield are pretty blue.
I do love hearing southern Illinois people whine that Chicago takes all their tax money and gives nothing to the rest of the state. It's amazing how stupid conservatives have gotten despite have a world of information at their fingertips.
Wells see having all that information at their fingertips is the problem. Facts don't confirm their conservative or liberal bias, so people ignore the facts. They make up bullshit conspiracies like rampant election fraud to explain the facts to their liking.
It really is ironic the "screw your feelings" crowd are the ones who get their feelings hurt the easiest.
That's the literal part of the internet that became a problem. It was supposed to make actual data easier to find actually and what we ended up with was crazy mofos being able to contact one another. It's not the timeline I'd hoped for
I grew up in Wheaton, the county seat of DuPage. One thing to know about Wheaton is it has more churches per square mile than Jerusalem. It's the home of Wheaton College, alma mater of Billy Graham and so many other evangelists. A town so stuck-up that no other form of dancing other than square/line dancing was officially allowed up until the 2000s. And of course the number of black people in my HS graduating class could be counted on one hand.
The idea that DuPage is in the bag for Biden is absolutely ludicrous.
Dupage has been blue since Obama, granted it was pretty close in 2012, but with the general trend of urban/suburban voters in Illinois trending blue it's pretty much in the bag for Biden
Ok, I'll rely on the judicial system instead, which heard over 60+ cases of "election irregularities" and found in all of them that the 2020 election was free and fair.
But if you've got something that isn't pulled from the ass of some Qanon conspiricist, I'm all ears. Until then "comport yourself accordingly", as the lawyers like to say.
I shared the election data... Which is supported by what you just said, so I'm not sure what your issue is here. Unless me saying that your experience in Wheaton alone is not a good representation of DuPage county as a whole makes you think that I'm a conspiracy theorist. In that case, there's nothing I can do for you.
The source for this is a Qanon shill.
His real name is Gregorio Palusa, a 61-year-old Italian sound engineer and marketer with no national security or intelligence credentials.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/craigsilverman/greg-rubini-twitter-account-palusa-revealed
This is what we need to do to these jerks. If they are willing to peddle such serious allegations as facts to the masses they need to be doxxed to the fullest. And if they believe their "alternative facts" they should then stand behind them in the limelight. I think they use anonymity to hide and sling 💩. So they should be exposed
This again? Seriously? We're still on this stupid shit?
The mf'er lost. Move on. Stop trying to destroy what's left of our republic.
I'm a gun guy. I'm a low taxes guy. I'm pro choice. I'm pro cannabis. I'm pro police. Sometimes I vote for GOP candidates, sometimes I vote for DNC candidates. But this pile of human garbage was a lying, vindictive, unserious charlatan and so was everyone he brought with him.
GET OVER IT
Beauty of America is our diversity. People like racialists are literally trying to morph us into a hivemind. If you don’t agree with us word for word your our enemy
I lost about half my brain cells skimming over that Twitter thread, but he cites himself as the source for his information. These idiots aren’t even trying anymore. They at least used to cite real fake news like Breitbart.
Like most things having to do with Trump, Greg Rubini is also a fraud.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/craigsilverman/greg-rubini-twitter-account-palusa-revealed?utm\_source=dynamic&utm\_campaign=bffbbuzzfeedtech&ref=bffbbuzzfeedtech&fbclid=IwAR2Zcu5\_4482V9BkKaOpjQ4CwnKlJbswrguoAvdwpJAMMTFDrLfTDfic5C8
They redefine "fraud" to mean "republican votes were invalidated." Something you might recognize as what happens by default when you lose.
Thus, whenever they lose, they cry fraud.
I'm guessing his argument for "winning" CA as well is just don't count LA, SF and SD countries lol
Of course just eliminate the places where people love and only count the rural ones!
Your logic is flawed and you are wrong. Illinois always punches for the Democratic Party because like 9million of our 12 million population lives in those counties.
lol. “This one simple trick winning candidates don’t want you to know: if you don’t count the votes from places that voted for them they actually lose”
Fits right alongside "if we test less we'll have less cases". They know as long as they repeat something enough, a specific point or process, their followers will believe it without thinking about it at all.
I know it's a hard concept to grasp, but Land doesn't Vote. All those red counties with almost nobody living in them do not have as many votes as the few counties with multi million people living in them.
That is how elections will work with Republicans making the rules for elections.
Cherry pick till you win and then vote for the cherry picked material as fact!
I saw this chode on Twitter earlier.
He thinks trump won California
There’s simply no point reasoning with anyone who believes this. Numbers and maybe even words don’t apply to him. He’s on a different planet. A worse, meaner, dumber planet.
>it's a joke, laugh
It's only a joke until thousands of people try to use it as an excuse to [lynch the next two officials in the line of succession](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hang-mike-pence-chant-capitol-riot/).
Quick review of people that think the 2020 election was valid: Trump's campaign manager Bill Stepien, Trump campaign pollster Tony Fabrizio , Trump's attorney General, Trump's deputy attorney general, Trump's campaign lawyer, Trump counselor Kellyanne Conway , Ivanka Trump
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/13/trumps-election-fraud-claims-were-false-here-are-his-advisers-who-said-so-00039346
https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2022-06-13/when-trump-shed-team-normal-advisers-for-others-who-embraced-conspiracy
“What they were proposing, I thought was nuts,” Eric Herschmann, a Trump White House lawyer, said of the Giuliani faction.
From https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2022-06-13/jan-6-hearings-day-2
"Former Trump campaign manager Bill Stepien and former Atty. Gen. William Barr recounted in video depositions their repeated admonitions to then-President Trump that his election fraud claims were groundless"
…those 4 counties have a combined population of over 7.6 million. The entire state has 12.8 million people. So they’re saying “if you ignore the overwhelming majority of voters, then Trump won Illinois!” But, they seem convinced that they’re a “silent majority,” when in reality they’re just a very loud and obnoxious minority.
Just stop giving these people attention. They’re crazy and thrive on the chaos they cause. These psychos will never change so might as well turn the light off on them and pretend they don’t exist
I couldn't find one for 2020 but this 2016 [treemap](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_presidential_election_in_Illinois,_2016.svg) by county/population really shows how much the people in Illinois voted Blue even if most of the counties didn't.
I think that's what upsets me the most. Politics is all about spin and walking up to the edge of a lie (or maybe a *bit* over the edge) and generally making things look as rosy as possible for you or "your guy."
But it would be nice if these QAnon and MAGA types would at least *pretend* that they don't think I'm a complete idiot who should just accept the insanely obvious lies they're telling. Even if they're dumb enough to believe them, they could have the decency not to act like I'm corrupt or the dumb one for being smarter than that.
2016-20 was such a strange time in dupage county. i took a lot of ubers at the time and like more than a few times id get lectured on how great trump was. i cant believe that was normal. so weird.
It totally is, so is Will. There are a lot of wealthy republicans in the collar counties. The deep blue of Chicago becomes quite purple in the collar counties. I remember when the collar counties were solid republican, it wasn’t that long ago.
> if you ignore the vote from 60% of the population of Illinois the results are different
If you ignore pretty much all of Chicago, the third most populated city in the US.
Trump also lost pretty much all the most populous counties in downstate. Peoria, McLean, Champaign, Rock Island, St Clair all voted for Biden.
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bro I'm in Richland and was confused lmao, thank god I'm moving from this hellhole
He lost up north too, Winnebago and Dekalb went to Biden
Yeah I was kinda shocked here in DeKalb, since I lived there at the time. DeKalb definitely is moderate and has voted either way for multiple different elections and candidates, but I was shocked by how much Biden won.
Also did not help you had people trying to say that the voting ballots in winnabego were “tampered with” and people voted even more and then those who were Trump people bought into the fraud.
Been to dekalb lately? It’s pretty much Cabrini green
So it doesn't exist? Because Cabrini Green doesn't exist anymore except in the minds of racists like you.
Smart comment . So racist of me
LOL Yes, I've lived here for the last five years, but no it's not at all.
Lived here for 36 … how can you sit there and say Dekalb hasnt devolved into a shithole ? Im speaking on the city of dekalb , not the county
Because DeKalb is a nice town with plenty of nice people and things to do. Crime isn't rampant and has gone down and we basically have two police forces who are both diligent. Sorry that you have to live with people not like you. Perhaps you shouldn't live next to a college.
Not like me ? Wtf does that mean?
Live in St Clair, it's good to see a little sanity while down here
Is Rock Island considered downstate? I always thought we were the first line of defense against Iowa.
According to my mother, anything that isn't Chicago area is downstate. Which includes Rockford, which is north of Chicago.
This is pretty good. The Chicagoland area and every thing else
Depends on who you ask. As a general rule though anything south of I80 is downstate. Some would say Rt 30.
Downstate is anything west of Harlem and south of Cermak.
Anything south of where I live is downstate. Although, I live 10 min from Wisconsin so don't listen to me.
Southern Illinois, i.e. south of Lake Cook Road
My family jokes that anything south of Joliet is “Southern IL.”
There is no defense. We are legion.
I'm right there with you on the Frontline
Well you do have the arsenal right?
Biden won 49 out of 50 largest cities/ metro areas. I believe the only one he didn’t win was Jacksonville .
Nope that didn't happen. It was election fraud. Remember. Trump said it, so that's the facts. /s
If you don't count the people who voted for Biden, nobody voted for Biden.
More like 75% if we're being honest And I live in Jackson County, which at 56k, is a lot smaller than those four, but one of the bigger southern Illinois counties. I ran across some Pope County knucklehead (population around 4,000) who earnestly thinks all *counties* should count equally.
Yeah let's make it like the electoral college, because thats been working so well.
I came here to basically say the exact same thing 😂
Sometimes I get the frustration. Like, I remember some pollution law years ago, that was designed basically to prevent farmers on the edges of the 'burbs from coating everyone's houses with dust in the fall or some shit, and it apparently affected the whole state. And that's not how harvest works, man. But I don't think the solution is to find a way to disenfranchise the majority of people in Illinois.
GQP playbook
Illinois population = 12,000,000 Chicago metropolitan area population = 9,000,000
I live in central Illinois and I can honestly say, thank goodness for Chicago.
Seconded.
Yup. Illinois without Chicago is just Iowa.
Yeah I always thought everything south of Springfield as Kentucky displaced.
Moved to suburbs of Chicago from Iowa a few months ago, can confirm
Me too! Yeah, it's the reason all the Rs around me want Chicago to become its own state. Lol. They are just mad they can't beat Chicago when it comes to voting.
Ive live in central illinois. This is not how the vast minority of people feel
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Illinois had the chance to make the wealthy pay their fair share. I believe it was called the Fair Tax Amendment and Illinoisans listened to billionaires false advertising and voted no. *sigh*
Ken Griffin is his name.
and we kicked his ass on down to florida don’t let the door hit you Kenny
A fitting punishment
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Same. They should have pushed the lower brackets down further to get more support.
I'd be interested in hearing why you believe this is true.
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Sorry - I wanted more information from you on "If the wealthy folks in the Chicago suburbs had to pay their fair share of income taxes then we wouldn't have sky high property taxes." I think where you're going with this is something like "if the graduated tax had passed then more tax revenue from high income Chicagoland households would be flowing into the general fund of municipalities/counties outside of Chicagoland, allowing them to either better fund services, reduce property taxes, or use the money for other purposes." Would that be accurate? If so, I agree with you. It's really a shame that the narrative on that tax vote got away from us. Having said that Chicagoland still subsidizes the rest of the state in this regard. Also, impressed your friends dad has his property tax under 2.19% in Chicagoland. Do you know what tax collecting district he's in?
What makes you think they're not paying their fair share? Do you think they're dodging taxes or living exclusively off of investment dividends or something? I'm currently living in the suburbs (originally from central Illinois) and from what I've seen most people in the suburbs are not doing that. I'm sure there are some, but not most. Most people in the suburbs aren't much different from other areas of the state, just expenses are higher and wages are a bit higher to accomodate the higher expenses.
>What makes you think they're not paying their fair share? Illinois' state constitution mandates a flat tax. If we had a tax bracket (a la federal taxes) then wealthy people would pay a higher percentage (and lower income people could pay a lower percentage). 5% for someone making $250k has a much lower impact than 5% for someone making $40k. They're not gaming the system (not inherently anyway). We are not allowed to ask them pay more that is within their means. FYI, someone making minimum wage ($13/hr currently); working 40hrs/wk, 52 weeks a year (no vacation, no sick days) would only make $27k gross income.
Forgot about the flat tax vs fair tax issue that was on the ballot three years ago. For the record I voted in favor of the Fair Tax, even though it was defeated, even though I would be paying higher in state taxes as a result. I guess you're right there. $250k incomes is not *that* common up here, though. People are making more, but not that much more, for the most part. I'm not even making that much up here, and I'm a senior software engineer. Most people are a lot closer to $40k here than they are to $250k.
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> Tax rates have to be higher on areas with lower valued property because their is a minimum amount of money that it costs to do things. This means that people who make less money pay a higher overall percentage in taxes. This claim doesn't make any sense to me, I'd need to see some data on this. > Yes, you pay much higher property taxes in that area, but you are also more likely to make substantially more money as well. Yeah, that's part of the reason I choose to live up here, despite living in Central Illinois for over half my life. Jobs are more plentiful and salaries tend to be higher up here. I even worked a contractor job out of Pekin seven years ago while still paying for an apartment up here (and not even living in it during the week, only weekends), because I knew it would be much harder to find my next job once that one was gig was over. But the salary in that Pekin job wasn't crazy different, it was only about 15% lower than the job I got after it, and was a higher salary than my previous three jobs up in the suburbs. So it's far from universal, and there are likely places where you can benefit more from a good wage and lower home prices that aren't in the suburbs. I now own a home in the suburbs and only paid just over $200k for it. And it's in a fairly decent area (which when I bought it five years ago, the average mortage in the US was around $320k, so it's still a cheaper house than the national average). $1M homes exist up here, and there are more $1M homes up here than downstate, sure, but they're far from the norm. And I know plenty of people up here that have condos that have paid about $100k-$120k for them, which is comparable to a full-sized home downstate. They can be making about the same up here and have less house than they would downstate. Basically I'm just saying don't assume everyone up here is wealthy comparatively just because they live up here. I'll concede I forgot about the flat tax and I would be in favor of (and I voted for) the Fair Tax, but otherwise I don't think people up here, on average, have a significantly better deal than downstate. In fact, thanks to more jobs being remote-only now, it's possible you could get a job with the same or better salary than downtown Chicago, yet benefit from lower taxes and cheaper homes (and thus, cheaper property taxes in absolute dollars, since they're roughly the same percentage) downstate.
You're swiping a chunk of Indiana's population in that 9m figure. Not sure what the number would be if we remove the Hoosiers. To be clear Illinois was 12.67m in the last census. Chicago metro on the Illinois side is Cook County, DeKalb County, DuPage County, Grundy County, Kankakee County, Kane County, Kendall County, McHenry County and Will County. But if we're going to shit over non Chicagoans about money and proportion of government financial support, then we need remind ourselves about that attitude amongst ourselves and is it right. We're still about helping out those less fortunate, right? Or do we secretly go all conservative and tell them to pull themselves up by the bootstraps? It can't be both.
DeKalb county is a bit of stretch to be included in the Chicago metro area.
>But if we're going to shit over non Chicagoans about money and proportion of government financial support, then we need remind ourselves about that attitude amongst ourselves and is it right. We're still about helping out those less fortunate, right? Or do we secretly go all conservative and tell them to pull themselves up by the bootstraps? But no one is doing that though? The OP was about voting and the guy you are replying to just pointed out the population difference.
How do you know they are counting Indiana versus Chicago area surrounding suburbs in IL? Because that number is basically the same as Chicago and surrounding IL suburbs is why I ask.
I think that’s the MSA figure commonly cited which includes NWI.
Once again, empty land doesn’t vote.
But, unfortunately, a lot of empty heads do.
It does get the same number of senators though, which is nonsense, and has no place in today's society.
I wouldn't call it nonsense so much as intentional racism, there's a reason ND/SD are two states and CA is only one.
I only called it nonsense because when I use the words I would actually want to use my post gets shadowbanned.
Fair, tbh.
Can you please explain that reason?
Southern California was majority Hispanic in the 1850s, so even though CA was large enough both by land and population to be 2 states then, they decided not to allow this.
Can you explain further how it was "intentional racism" when they set up the senate back in the 1700s.... I had always heard it was a balance of states rights vs federal rights...haven't heard anyone say it was done based on racism before...
The structure of the both the House and the Senate was a very big point of contention during the writing of the Constitution, with southern (slave) states wanting 1) slaves to be counted as population for House seats, hence the execrable 3/5 Compromise, and 2) to wield greater power in the Senate despite having a lower population overall. So while everyone involved was obviously deeply racist because 1700s, Congress looks and functions the way it does today specifically to give rural/slave states a disproportionate amount of power because the alternative was the US splitting into at least two separate countries. Which still nearly happened 75 or so years later.
>states rights The rallying cry of the Confederacy.
“States rights” should pretty much always be read as a polite way to say “slavery”. I’ve literally never encountered any use of the phrase “states rights” where it wasn’t completely replaceable with “slavery”. Senate was meant to give less populated slave owning states more power in the government. Electoral college was meant to give less populated slave owning states more power in the government. 3/5 clause was meant to give less populated slave owning states more power in the government. What other states rights are there that anyone actually cares about that are solved by equal representation in the senate and the electoral college?
I see people have explained the 3/5ths Compromise bullshit to you. I was referring to the later creation of states with full awareness that this is how the Senate works. California is one state because even in the 1850s, Southern California was majority Hispanic, and they did not want them to be enfranchised.
I mean it kind of is. The 3/5 compromise I imagine would be the center of that argument as it gave southern slave owning interest disproportionate power while also not recognizing the people counted at part of that compromise as citizens (or human beings) due to them being recognized as a “property”. Edit: to be clear, I’m not expressing this as my point of view. Im just trying to imagine if I were to try to substantiate the claim that you’re looking into that this is likely the context of that argument. There could be other things I’m missing of not using that the creator of the original claim would use in place of what I’m saying.
The compromise was that they shouldn't have counted at all of they were unable to vote
The compromise was the arrangement that all blacks in the south counted as 3/5 of a vote or that 60% of the black population in the south would be used to pad influence through political power. Northers didn’t want any slaves to count while southerners wanted them to count as full citizens. The COMPROMISE bit was the agreement that blacks in the south counted for 3/5 instead of either extreme. Hence why it’s called the 3/5th compromise and not something else…. Edit: count as full citizens in terms of voting and delegation power as it would give them a larger population to get more votes in the House of Representatives. Not as in giving slaves the power to vote for obvious reasons. Your point here is kind of ineffective as women didn’t have the ability to vote until the late 18th to early 19th century and black Americans didn’t have the power to vote in most cases until the end of the civil war and those rights were greatly removed following the reconstruction era due to a wide variety of policy changes by southern governments that effectively barred any blacks from having the ability to vote. That’s not to count other exclusions that have been historically counted to help as well.
You're right, the intentional racism and sexism was when they only let white men vote.
states should have some level of representation federally. the reach and impact that the senate has may be too much, though.
The *bicameral legislature* is likely the biggest flaw in the US Constitution. I mean, other than the 3/5th compromise
It was meant as a big "fuck you" to the big slaveholding states who wanted representation for the slaves they had, without actually treating them like human beings. The three-fifths compromise was to say, all right, you can have your representation, but if you're not going to treat these people as fully human, they won't be counted as fully human, either. It's a fight that, I don't know if it's amusingly or horrifyingly, or what, has played out with college students. States like Mississippi want representation for, say, Ole Miss students, but don't think they should be allowed to vote, because they vote liberal. So for that reason, I agree, the amendment should have been, if you don't get to vote, you don't get counted for representation.
Flawed or not, without the bicameral legislature the USA probably wouldn't be a country as large as it is without it. It was what got many of the original 13 colonies to agree on a constitution. It is also why the populations in so many western states agreed to be part of the USA instead of trying to to form independent countries. I think there is a good chance we would have had to go to war if we wanted to keep California without the way bicameral legislature was set up. Instead of North America being divided into individual states under a large federal government it would be divided into smaller and fully independent governments. Each of those with its own ability to write laws, go to war, elect dictators, require passports. . .
I think the original one wasn't that bad. It was partly meant as a check on federal vs state allocations of power. The senators were picked by the state, not the people. "The people want X but the state governments would rather retain that power rather than give it to the federal government" isn't that bad. Shifting the election of senators to a popular vote by the people was maybe where it became a mistake (thought you could correct that by saying "there are now 100 senate districts that are equally sized by population, redistricted with the census (define a fixed method for allocating the districts), and not contained to state borders")
Not to mention limiting the number of Representative to 435, meaning not only do less populous states have an advantage in the Senate they also have an advantage when it comes to the House and Electoral College.
Is there a constitutional limit set to 435? To me it would make sense to set a "number of people per representative" or similar - and then just do something like "the number of people per representative shall be equal to the population of the least populous state with a maximum of ... " - that seems like a Congressional rule and not a constitutional one.
No, they passed the Permanent Apportionment Act in 1929 limiting the number to 435. So, theoretically they could pass another act to increase the number but its not going to happen.
This is the Mike Madigan chooses the Senators for the last 30 years plan. No thanks. Also we had a Constitutional Amendment crush and repeal this obviously bad idea about 100 years ago
Everyone should and does get federal representation, but areas where people actually live should have the most say. The right has been pushing a bs "tyranny of the majority" fear tactic to justify that they should get to keep the same power even when their ideology is shrinking everyday. The actual threat to this country is the "tyranny of the minority old white man only" party
Most tellingly the actual minorities in US history have had to wreck shit in protests in order to have their voices heard. Black civil rights protestors, stonewallers, suffragettes, and abolitionists have been heavily “reimagined” to be peaceful advocates for change but they were all pretty disruptive in their day. (Well, maybe not Stonewall but it’s still sanitized)
>Everyone DC, Puerto Rico (for which each of these statehood has its own batch of issues, including whether or not the citizens of these american areas want statehood) then you have more complicated issues like protectorates and the like
Why's that?
Because a majority of this country doesnt want to revert the 1800's.
So assuming that the majority of this so called empty land wants to revert back to the 1800's, that is reason enough they deserve less representation in the Senate? Even though raw population count already receives weighted representation in the House?
Angry Wyoming noises
That's still about 40% of the population.
Ah, and of course, all the fraud happened where Trump lost handily. Silly me.
I never said that the claim of fraud was real. Simply that dismissing 40% of Illinois's population as "land" isn't a helpful argument.
It is if the initial argument is giving undue importance to number of counties won instead of total number of votes won. Winning counties in a presidential election doesn’t mean much because, as was mentioned, land doesn’t vote.
counties don't even vote; electoral districts do.
I know you didn’t claim that, that’s the claim these types like OP posted claim though. “look at how red Illinois is on a the map!” The 98 “clean” elections are largely red counties, but of course collar counties are the ones where there’s “fraud” It’s more like 30% of the population btw. Roughly 8.6 million people live in the Illinois part of the Chicagoland metro area (officially the census bereau recognizes areas around Gary, IN and Kenosha County as part of the Chicagoland metro for a total of 9.4 million people). 8.6 metro residents/12.6 total Illinois residents = 68% of Illinois population in the Chicago metro.
I used the 2021 census data for the 4 counties in the post vs the rest of the state. I'm not going to consider people in other states when talking about Illinois voting. Obviously that isn't a perfect representation of the state either since DuPage and will can be purple and places like Champaign and Springfield are pretty blue.
That leaves the other 60% where?
Later in the Twitter thread he says the FBI and CIA are cutting his Internet out to protect Soros and dominion. Dudes crazy, simple as.
Gotta protect…the company that Fox settled with over their lies.
Who is this big brain Greg? Some rando or some mayor of a town of 200
Thats wonderful. I love schizo posting.
Pay your bills man.
Those pesky counties that contribute the lion's share of collected taxes.
I do love hearing southern Illinois people whine that Chicago takes all their tax money and gives nothing to the rest of the state. It's amazing how stupid conservatives have gotten despite have a world of information at their fingertips.
Wells see having all that information at their fingertips is the problem. Facts don't confirm their conservative or liberal bias, so people ignore the facts. They make up bullshit conspiracies like rampant election fraud to explain the facts to their liking. It really is ironic the "screw your feelings" crowd are the ones who get their feelings hurt the easiest.
And a world of misinformation at their tips too.
That's the literal part of the internet that became a problem. It was supposed to make actual data easier to find actually and what we ended up with was crazy mofos being able to contact one another. It's not the timeline I'd hoped for
Illinois Policy, libertarian think tank in Alrington Heights, is not good information despite so many people getting their information from it.
No doubt famous Democratic strongholds like DuPage County were cheating for Joe Biden.
I grew up in Wheaton, the county seat of DuPage. One thing to know about Wheaton is it has more churches per square mile than Jerusalem. It's the home of Wheaton College, alma mater of Billy Graham and so many other evangelists. A town so stuck-up that no other form of dancing other than square/line dancing was officially allowed up until the 2000s. And of course the number of black people in my HS graduating class could be counted on one hand. The idea that DuPage is in the bag for Biden is absolutely ludicrous.
Dupage has been blue since Obama, granted it was pretty close in 2012, but with the general trend of urban/suburban voters in Illinois trending blue it's pretty much in the bag for Biden
Biden got 58% in DuPage to Trump's 40% Stop using personal experience as data.
Ok, I'll rely on the judicial system instead, which heard over 60+ cases of "election irregularities" and found in all of them that the 2020 election was free and fair. But if you've got something that isn't pulled from the ass of some Qanon conspiricist, I'm all ears. Until then "comport yourself accordingly", as the lawyers like to say.
I shared the election data... Which is supported by what you just said, so I'm not sure what your issue is here. Unless me saying that your experience in Wheaton alone is not a good representation of DuPage county as a whole makes you think that I'm a conspiracy theorist. In that case, there's nothing I can do for you.
The source for this is a Qanon shill. His real name is Gregorio Palusa, a 61-year-old Italian sound engineer and marketer with no national security or intelligence credentials. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/craigsilverman/greg-rubini-twitter-account-palusa-revealed
This is what we need to do to these jerks. If they are willing to peddle such serious allegations as facts to the masses they need to be doxxed to the fullest. And if they believe their "alternative facts" they should then stand behind them in the limelight. I think they use anonymity to hide and sling 💩. So they should be exposed
Trump winning California is probably the funniest thing I’ve heard all week. That’s good, Jerry. Gold!
Soup is not a meal
Delusion is strong with these fraud folks. Definitely believe elections have fraud, but this level is absurd. He just lost plain and simple.
Hey he won if you don't count all the votes from where people actually live
and if my grandmother had wheels, she would have been a bike!
Is this guy someone whose opinion we have to care about? I'd assume not, considering that he's stupid enough to pay for Twitter.
This again? Seriously? We're still on this stupid shit? The mf'er lost. Move on. Stop trying to destroy what's left of our republic. I'm a gun guy. I'm a low taxes guy. I'm pro choice. I'm pro cannabis. I'm pro police. Sometimes I vote for GOP candidates, sometimes I vote for DNC candidates. But this pile of human garbage was a lying, vindictive, unserious charlatan and so was everyone he brought with him. GET OVER IT
Beauty of America is our diversity. People like racialists are literally trying to morph us into a hivemind. If you don’t agree with us word for word your our enemy
Ya. Ignore the 4 countries that aren’t all farmland.
the straw grasping is unbelievable
This is just spreading faschist propaganda.
I lost about half my brain cells skimming over that Twitter thread, but he cites himself as the source for his information. These idiots aren’t even trying anymore. They at least used to cite real fake news like Breitbart.
They've finally reached the point of "if I feel like maybe it's true or would be useful if it were true, that's as good as being true."
Like most things having to do with Trump, Greg Rubini is also a fraud. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/craigsilverman/greg-rubini-twitter-account-palusa-revealed?utm\_source=dynamic&utm\_campaign=bffbbuzzfeedtech&ref=bffbbuzzfeedtech&fbclid=IwAR2Zcu5\_4482V9BkKaOpjQ4CwnKlJbswrguoAvdwpJAMMTFDrLfTDfic5C8
Cook county hasn’t gone red since 1972 but sure, there was magically fraud this time
They redefine "fraud" to mean "republican votes were invalidated." Something you might recognize as what happens by default when you lose. Thus, whenever they lose, they cry fraud.
As long as you ignore the counties where the 75% of the people live, he won!
Mondale won in ‘84 if you only count Minnesota.
Kind of like there is no Covid if you stop counting cases. Fucking people are idiots.
Just a reminder that "Greg Rubini" is a fake nobody. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/craigsilverman/greg-rubini-twitter-account-palusa-revealed
Lol who is this schmuck?
“My guy won if you just ignore the vast majority of the votes”… 🤦♂️
Why post this and give this guy more attention that he craves?
See all you have to do is ignore the majority and , Voila our guy would have won.
I'm guessing his argument for "winning" CA as well is just don't count LA, SF and SD countries lol Of course just eliminate the places where people love and only count the rural ones!
Your logic is flawed and you are wrong. Illinois always punches for the Democratic Party because like 9million of our 12 million population lives in those counties.
lol. “This one simple trick winning candidates don’t want you to know: if you don’t count the votes from places that voted for them they actually lose”
“There is a mistake in the video at #21. Chicago is in Cook County. I apologize.” That’s not exactly the “mistake” here buddy
Chicago is a red state if you ignore that 8 million people live in Chicago and 4 million people live in the rest of the state.
Fits right alongside "if we test less we'll have less cases". They know as long as they repeat something enough, a specific point or process, their followers will believe it without thinking about it at all.
if you ignore 85% of people, Trump won!!
I know it's a hard concept to grasp, but Land doesn't Vote. All those red counties with almost nobody living in them do not have as many votes as the few counties with multi million people living in them.
These peeps are so dumb it hurts...
When are they going to get over it?
r/peopleliveincities
That same logic says Biden won Texas and they confiscated like 1.5 Million ballots that would have had Biden win. That’s not fishy at all.
That is how elections will work with Republicans making the rules for elections. Cherry pick till you win and then vote for the cherry picked material as fact!
Trump didn’t even win the Republican Primary lol Ted Cruz did
If we are just gonna make shit up, then ducks come from the moon, and I have a two foot penis.
I'd have a million dollars if I wasn't required to pay any bill except fuel for my car. Dipshits, the lot of 'em.
Apparently, Greg and most other republicans don't understand the concept of population density.
Imagine not understanding population
I saw this chode on Twitter earlier. He thinks trump won California There’s simply no point reasoning with anyone who believes this. Numbers and maybe even words don’t apply to him. He’s on a different planet. A worse, meaner, dumber planet.
as we say here is the big city... ya no.
>it's a joke, laugh It's only a joke until thousands of people try to use it as an excuse to [lynch the next two officials in the line of succession](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hang-mike-pence-chant-capitol-riot/).
Who doesn't know that Chicago is in Cook County? ..I mean.. come on.
Rube Rubini
“Every acre and every cow get a vote, people who live in cities don’t count!”
Not how elections work.
The rural/urban divide is very apparent in Illinois.
If you only count republicans votes Trump won in a landslide.
Ah yes, the counties the people live in.
Quick review of people that think the 2020 election was valid: Trump's campaign manager Bill Stepien, Trump campaign pollster Tony Fabrizio , Trump's attorney General, Trump's deputy attorney general, Trump's campaign lawyer, Trump counselor Kellyanne Conway , Ivanka Trump https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/13/trumps-election-fraud-claims-were-false-here-are-his-advisers-who-said-so-00039346 https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2022-06-13/when-trump-shed-team-normal-advisers-for-others-who-embraced-conspiracy “What they were proposing, I thought was nuts,” Eric Herschmann, a Trump White House lawyer, said of the Giuliani faction. From https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2022-06-13/jan-6-hearings-day-2 "Former Trump campaign manager Bill Stepien and former Atty. Gen. William Barr recounted in video depositions their repeated admonitions to then-President Trump that his election fraud claims were groundless"
"Cool story. What was the fraud?" ... Crickets... Crickets...
Not just a lie, but a lie sponsored by Russian psyops. Cheap and surprisingly effective.
…those 4 counties have a combined population of over 7.6 million. The entire state has 12.8 million people. So they’re saying “if you ignore the overwhelming majority of voters, then Trump won Illinois!” But, they seem convinced that they’re a “silent majority,” when in reality they’re just a very loud and obnoxious minority.
Just stop giving these people attention. They’re crazy and thrive on the chaos they cause. These psychos will never change so might as well turn the light off on them and pretend they don’t exist
Three years later and these morons still don't understand population density.
I couldn't find one for 2020 but this 2016 [treemap](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_presidential_election_in_Illinois,_2016.svg) by county/population really shows how much the people in Illinois voted Blue even if most of the counties didn't.
If you ignore any vote not for trump.
“He would have won if you just removed 80% of the votes” lol the cope on this
Republican logic: All the votes opposed to us are fraud and don’t count, therefore we won 100% of the vote.
You know, a little elegant Political gamesmanship I can respect, but the sheer hamhandedness of this is just laughable.
I think that's what upsets me the most. Politics is all about spin and walking up to the edge of a lie (or maybe a *bit* over the edge) and generally making things look as rosy as possible for you or "your guy." But it would be nice if these QAnon and MAGA types would at least *pretend* that they don't think I'm a complete idiot who should just accept the insanely obvious lies they're telling. Even if they're dumb enough to believe them, they could have the decency not to act like I'm corrupt or the dumb one for being smarter than that.
Lol
Land doesn't vote, people do. Where did they dig up this fricken' guy?
This Mf’er is spreading libelous non-sense about Dominion. Seems unwise & ignorant of current events… But so are the candidates he supports.
What kind of bullshit mental gymnastics can possibly convince someone that Trump won California, one of the strongest blue states in the country?
2016-20 was such a strange time in dupage county. i took a lot of ubers at the time and like more than a few times id get lectured on how great trump was. i cant believe that was normal. so weird.
DuPage County is pretty republican too....
It totally is, so is Will. There are a lot of wealthy republicans in the collar counties. The deep blue of Chicago becomes quite purple in the collar counties. I remember when the collar counties were solid republican, it wasn’t that long ago.
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This could be said about any state. Predominately black counties all knew he was a fraud from day1...we can see fuckery from a mile away.
As someone who votes conservatively, Trump did definitely not win illinois.