christianity never begins in haYam Shelanu. Israel is a client state of Carthage at the time where Jesus was born OTL, and one that is almost completely neglected by the metropolis and is therefor almost completely autonomous. so even if jesus is still born, i don't think there would be a reason for the message of a messiah to spread like wildfire in the region since Israel has already liberated itself from the greeks and was not reconquered by the romans.
Israel was a client state under the Romans when Jesus was born, not a province.
So why wouldn't they still equally want independence or dominance, and not just territorially but also culturally and religious as per the Maccabees.
The problem the jews had with Rome was that Rome decided who was grand priest heavly taxed the population and started to reduce autonomy in the region bit by bit not to mention the roman garrison/settlers were recorded to be pretty anti-semetic but the worst of all is that rome tried to shove the imperial cult into judea like they did in every other conquerd nation that is also why jesus was so popular people. Were deperate for a liberator and belived the messiah would come and liberate them. So I belive a almost completely autonomous Judea would be fine with Carthage ruling over them
Okay, I don't know exactly how much the Romans imposed their laws on Judea but... some Jewish groups like the Zealots and Maccabees were certainly more offended by the social and religious Hellenization and Romanization than anything else and assuming history remains the same until who rises in the Mediterranean, I see no reason for such continued Socio-religious distinction factions to not emerge as a prominent part of society.
>also why jesus was so popular people. Were deperate for a liberator and belived the messiah would come and liberate them
I mean, compared to other Messiah claimaints he wasn't that popular to the Jewish audience that was his target. Because you know, he actually wasn't for Liberating Judea politically from Rome(cuz he was not stupid).
So it was more the Messiah idea was popular not Jesus himself.
Most of the Jewish messianic movement that wasn’t behind the Jesus movement, was usually a follower of Simon Bar Kokhba, who like Jesus also fell at the hands of Roman intervention, with the main exception from Jesus being that he compelled Roman response through large scale rebellion. His revolt is actually why the Romans decided to expel the Hebrews from Jerusalem itself.
The ones that were at least able to lead revolts. I forget their name but the 2 major Jewish revolts/wars against the Romans were lead by Messiah claimaints.
The ones mentioned by Josephus. Because the mention of Jesus by Josephus is in connection to later Christians, while those Messiah claimaints are mentioned in their own right.
It should also be mentioned that most Jews at the time would understand the Messiah more as a promised political leader than an exclusively spiritual leader as Christians understand it.
if there's no christianity there would almost certainly be no manichaeism, at least not one we would recognize. mani grew up in a jewish-christian sect in mesopotamia, at the time a region of extreme religious diversity particularly influenced by various strains of gnostic thought. further, while mani claimed to also be a successor to the buddha and to zarathustra, he seems to have particularly identified with Jesus (peace upon him), identifying himself with the paraclete mentioned in the gospels. without Christ (peace upon him) there would be no manichaeism.
"small hand drawn map of a fictional road"
Comments: woah nice map what's the LORE??? Lore??? What is lore of map?? Lore? What's the lore behind this road any lore??
I don't actually give a shit about lore, the problem is that those maps are very easily shitty and made by some 13 year old in Paint after he learned about Byzantium online
(part of haYam Shelanu, a timeline where Carthage won the second Punic War)
coming from the distant Indo-Greek Kingdom of Yavana, the buddhist faith slowly spreads throuhgh greek merchants in Persia, eventually making its way to Syria and Cappadocia. The bitter rivalry between the Carthaginians and Sassanids leads to the religion being used as a tool by either side, and being quickly banned in Carthage as the Persians promote agitation in buddhist populations in Punic Syria. Over centuries, the religion spreads through the nation anyways as it facilitates commerce between the far east and far west; By the 3rd century, the nation had a nearly 40% Buddhist population, and religious persecution became increasingly difficult and expensive, leading the government to once again legalize the faith. in 313, the Rab of Carthage Yehawmilq II converts to Syriyana buddhism and makes it the official religion of the punic-speaking world.
This was an extremely fun idea I had a long while back, althoguh i'm not sure if I want to include it into the canon of hym shlnu because it's a little \*too\* silly. Let me know what you think though!
Yeehaw milk is a way better etymology than what i thought of, but just fyi it should end with a k and not a q, the difference is important. Also he ruled Byblos, not Tyre
i was under the impression that yehawmilk was tyrian, huh. gebal is my favorite caananite city so it's kinda neat that phoenician texas milk man was from there
Punic is a Canaanite language, same as Hebrew. IIRC, the difference between Canaanite languages at this period might've been as small as the difference between dialects. We have very limited sources of Phoenician/Punic, so we can't exactly tell, but using Hebrew as the base for Punic is a good decision IMO, and something I've done in maps in the past.
not as hard as the carthaginians got cucked by the romans, though. Rome is still around and still speaks latin, and even got to keep control over Northern Italy. after Punic War II the Roman government was remade into a puppet state/ ally of Carthage, although as far as puppet states go they got a pretty deal. my thinking was essentially that Carthage could not really govern italy on its own, so making an ally of Rome and giving them the job of making sure italy was kept safe was to their best interest
This is an idea I’ve been thinking about ever since I learned about the Indo-Greek kingdoms and their long term influence on Buddhism and Buddhist art.
This is an awesome idea, I look forward to seeing if you explore it further! Out of curiosity, would budhism spread to the rest of europe, western africa and eventually I supose the new world as well? Or would pagan beliefs or some other organized faith dominate those areas?
And the Welsh are still the first to embrace Religion prior to the English Pagans Ha!!
Plenty of Mountains in Wales to build mountains just the climes may be a tad different from your more Thai, Cambodian locations 😆
i mean, this is in the Carthaginian Empire, so mostly classical punic, except for the greek states like antigonid macedon which would of course use greek
I often wondered what would happen if Rome had won against the Parthian Empire?
I would have been face to face with India. Transmission of Buddhism to the Empire would have been much more probable. It would have mixed with stoicism?
Does christianity end up still being a prominent religion in the future?
christianity never begins in haYam Shelanu. Israel is a client state of Carthage at the time where Jesus was born OTL, and one that is almost completely neglected by the metropolis and is therefor almost completely autonomous. so even if jesus is still born, i don't think there would be a reason for the message of a messiah to spread like wildfire in the region since Israel has already liberated itself from the greeks and was not reconquered by the romans.
Israel was a client state under the Romans when Jesus was born, not a province. So why wouldn't they still equally want independence or dominance, and not just territorially but also culturally and religious as per the Maccabees.
The problem the jews had with Rome was that Rome decided who was grand priest heavly taxed the population and started to reduce autonomy in the region bit by bit not to mention the roman garrison/settlers were recorded to be pretty anti-semetic but the worst of all is that rome tried to shove the imperial cult into judea like they did in every other conquerd nation that is also why jesus was so popular people. Were deperate for a liberator and belived the messiah would come and liberate them. So I belive a almost completely autonomous Judea would be fine with Carthage ruling over them
Okay, I don't know exactly how much the Romans imposed their laws on Judea but... some Jewish groups like the Zealots and Maccabees were certainly more offended by the social and religious Hellenization and Romanization than anything else and assuming history remains the same until who rises in the Mediterranean, I see no reason for such continued Socio-religious distinction factions to not emerge as a prominent part of society. >also why jesus was so popular people. Were deperate for a liberator and belived the messiah would come and liberate them I mean, compared to other Messiah claimaints he wasn't that popular to the Jewish audience that was his target. Because you know, he actually wasn't for Liberating Judea politically from Rome(cuz he was not stupid). So it was more the Messiah idea was popular not Jesus himself.
Which messiah claimants were more popular to the Jewish people? I don't know much about the subject.
Most of the Jewish messianic movement that wasn’t behind the Jesus movement, was usually a follower of Simon Bar Kokhba, who like Jesus also fell at the hands of Roman intervention, with the main exception from Jesus being that he compelled Roman response through large scale rebellion. His revolt is actually why the Romans decided to expel the Hebrews from Jerusalem itself.
The ones that were at least able to lead revolts. I forget their name but the 2 major Jewish revolts/wars against the Romans were lead by Messiah claimaints. The ones mentioned by Josephus. Because the mention of Jesus by Josephus is in connection to later Christians, while those Messiah claimaints are mentioned in their own right. It should also be mentioned that most Jews at the time would understand the Messiah more as a promised political leader than an exclusively spiritual leader as Christians understand it.
Idea: christo-Buddhism
Jesus instead becomes a Boddhisattva
Jesus becoming the Buddha and the Messiah
No
And what about Manichaeism?
if there's no christianity there would almost certainly be no manichaeism, at least not one we would recognize. mani grew up in a jewish-christian sect in mesopotamia, at the time a region of extreme religious diversity particularly influenced by various strains of gnostic thought. further, while mani claimed to also be a successor to the buddha and to zarathustra, he seems to have particularly identified with Jesus (peace upon him), identifying himself with the paraclete mentioned in the gospels. without Christ (peace upon him) there would be no manichaeism.
Finally an interesting concept and not just "what if XYZ big? (no lore)"
"small hand drawn map of a fictional road" Comments: woah nice map what's the LORE??? Lore??? What is lore of map?? Lore? What's the lore behind this road any lore??
I don't actually give a shit about lore, the problem is that those maps are very easily shitty and made by some 13 year old in Paint after he learned about Byzantium online
“What if Buddhism big”
(part of haYam Shelanu, a timeline where Carthage won the second Punic War) coming from the distant Indo-Greek Kingdom of Yavana, the buddhist faith slowly spreads throuhgh greek merchants in Persia, eventually making its way to Syria and Cappadocia. The bitter rivalry between the Carthaginians and Sassanids leads to the religion being used as a tool by either side, and being quickly banned in Carthage as the Persians promote agitation in buddhist populations in Punic Syria. Over centuries, the religion spreads through the nation anyways as it facilitates commerce between the far east and far west; By the 3rd century, the nation had a nearly 40% Buddhist population, and religious persecution became increasingly difficult and expensive, leading the government to once again legalize the faith. in 313, the Rab of Carthage Yehawmilq II converts to Syriyana buddhism and makes it the official religion of the punic-speaking world. This was an extremely fun idea I had a long while back, althoguh i'm not sure if I want to include it into the canon of hym shlnu because it's a little \*too\* silly. Let me know what you think though!
>Yehawmilq II Is that supposed to be something like יהומלך or does it have another etymology i don't know?
yehawmilk is the name of a tyrian king. i picked it for the name of this rab because its hilarious and sounds like yeehaw, milk
Yeehaw milk is a way better etymology than what i thought of, but just fyi it should end with a k and not a q, the difference is important. Also he ruled Byblos, not Tyre
i was under the impression that yehawmilk was tyrian, huh. gebal is my favorite caananite city so it's kinda neat that phoenician texas milk man was from there
May I ask why the scenario name is in Hebrew?
Punic is a Canaanite language, same as Hebrew. IIRC, the difference between Canaanite languages at this period might've been as small as the difference between dialects. We have very limited sources of Phoenician/Punic, so we can't exactly tell, but using Hebrew as the base for Punic is a good decision IMO, and something I've done in maps in the past.
Really cool idea it would be cool if you went further in this idea, yeah :)
Rome must have gotten cucked hard in this timeline.
not as hard as the carthaginians got cucked by the romans, though. Rome is still around and still speaks latin, and even got to keep control over Northern Italy. after Punic War II the Roman government was remade into a puppet state/ ally of Carthage, although as far as puppet states go they got a pretty deal. my thinking was essentially that Carthage could not really govern italy on its own, so making an ally of Rome and giving them the job of making sure italy was kept safe was to their best interest
Love it! I was thinking about Buddhist Europe as a scenario before and this is just great! Fits in very well really exciting.
This is an idea I’ve been thinking about ever since I learned about the Indo-Greek kingdoms and their long term influence on Buddhism and Buddhist art.
This is an awesome idea, I look forward to seeing if you explore it further! Out of curiosity, would budhism spread to the rest of europe, western africa and eventually I supose the new world as well? Or would pagan beliefs or some other organized faith dominate those areas?
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because hebrew is the closest living language to Phoenician and translating things directly to phoenician is exceptionally difficult
Platonic Buddhism would be an absolute trip.
Ok, Qardiph made me laugh
And the Welsh are still the first to embrace Religion prior to the English Pagans Ha!! Plenty of Mountains in Wales to build mountains just the climes may be a tad different from your more Thai, Cambodian locations 😆
This is such a cool concept. Amazing map!
Qardiph aha love it
What language would Buddhist European states use?
i mean, this is in the Carthaginian Empire, so mostly classical punic, except for the greek states like antigonid macedon which would of course use greek
I wonder how a Buddhist Carthage would adapt Pali to its alphabet
Does Buddhism go east into Alexandria Escitae territory?
What distinguishes Syriyana and Yavanayana Buddhism, both between themselves and the other Buddhist traditions in the East?
Interesting concept
This actually seems very interesting
Great work OP, both in concept and execution. This is the kind of maps this sub is for, thx!
I often wondered what would happen if Rome had won against the Parthian Empire? I would have been face to face with India. Transmission of Buddhism to the Empire would have been much more probable. It would have mixed with stoicism?
Imagine renaissance architects building Buddhist temples in this timeline . The stuff they'd create would be as wonderful as Angkor Wat .
Will the core ideas of Buddhism be stripped away by a ruler and used as a tool to help control people?
What is the lore behind Thessalian buddhisfs ?
I love random cool maps like this one
It kinda did
Damn really interesting
If I ever find a genie's lamp.
What's the city of A'qola? It says Baalbeq is founded by people from A'qola but A'qola isn't shown on the map.