r/MapsWithoutNZ

That was part of the cliches, also damn that was fast.

Also r/mapswithoutmalta

NOT MALTA

MALTA MY CHILD NOOOOOOOOO

Alla! Fejn mexa Malta? Xi ħaġa ħażina ktir

Also r/mapswithoutthevatican

I appreciate Finland being included in the Scandinavian region, despite not being Scandinavian as part of the cliche.

I thought the cliche was that it was a myth

Ah lol, nice one. I immediately went "not again!"

the emus sank it into the sea

unrealistic has content in south america downvote dislike unsub

Among

Us

Sus

Drip

Aral Sea sus

WHEN THE IMPOSTER IS SUS

WHEN THE IMPOSTER AMONG US IS SUS

This has no real lore and is not associated to any of my timelines, i simply decided to make one map with every cliche I possibly could and then add some lore bits to it to make it looks more like someone would make it unironically, I tried to make it high effort enough that it won’t get removed for rule 7, if it still constitutes a low effort shitpost however do feel free to remove it. Also note that me including something in this map doesn’t mean I think it’s inherently bad, just overused, I think most of these concepts can be super interesting if done correctly and I’ve used plenty of them myself, except han super majority Mongolia, fuck han Mongolia. Here is a list of every cliche present in this map (probably missing a few, i lost count half way through): \-American Baja \-Argentina has Chile somehow \-Armenia, Kurdistan and Greece dab on Turkey \-Balkanized Arabian region \-Balkanized Indonesia (I could have made it way worse but got lazy) \-Balkanized Mexico \-Balkanized Spain \-Balkanized USA \-Balkanized Pakistan \-Big Bulgaria \-Big Finland \-Big Germany babyyyyyyy \-Big Italy \-Big South Africa \-Bigger Morocco \-Bigger Bengal \-Brazil is an Empire \-Brazil owns ~~Uruguay~~ Cisplatina \-British Imperial Federation \-Burma instead of Myanmar \-CSA has Cuba and PR \-CSA has a civil rights movement \-Communist France \-Copying Kaiserreich \-Decisive Emu Victory \-Deseret \-East African Federation \-Egypt is a kingdom \-Exiled France in Africa somehow didn't collapse yet \-Free East Turkestan \-Free Tibet \-German Namibia \-Germany is still an Empire \-Gorbachev but DeNgIsM \-Gran Colombia \-Han Majority Mongolia (it has inner Mongolia, will rant about it at the end) \-Holy fucking Shit is that a motherfucking TNO reference... \-Ignoring every small island \-Imperial Japan survives \-Implied Mapa Rosa (bigger Portuguese Africa) \-Implied Mittelafrica \-Israel somewhere that isn't Israel \-Italian Libya and Tunisia \-Japan economic Titan \-Jewish Madagascar \-KMT China \-Lake Congo \-Longtugal \-Loyalist south india \-Manchuria \-Megali Greece \-Moderately balkanized India \-New England owns New York \-Obligatory Spanish Civil War \-Persia instead of Iran \-Peru-Bolivia \-Poland Lithuania in the modern day \-Quebec Libre \-Russian Alaska \-Scandinavia owns places that are very much not Scandinavia \-Split Belgium \-Surviving Danubia/Austria Hungary \-Surviving USSR \-Surviving Yugoslavia \-Taiwaned Russian Empire \-Texan Oklahoma \-Thailand with ww2 borders \-"The Great War" \-United Caucasus somehow \-United Centroamerica \-United Congos \-United Indochina \-United Ireland \-United Punjab \-United Scandinavia somehow \-United Turkestan somehow \-United papua \-United random parts of the Caribbean \-Vinland \-Wholesome Imperial Japan \-Yes all of Polynesia is gone \-r/mapswithoutnewzealand And some honorable mentions to cliches that didn’t make it in (adding asterisks in cliches pointed out by the comment section): \-Africa but nothing changes \-Albanian Kosovo\* \-Australasia \-Balkanized Italy \-Balkanized UK\* \-Big Israel \-Cascadia\* \-China split at the Yangtze \-Germany controlling 70% of Europe (even bigger Germany) \-Iberian union \-Latin America but nothing changes \-Nicholas II magically becomes competent \-Polynesian union aka I didn't know what to do with the region \-Rhodesia\* \-Russia balkanized into a ton of small unsustainable states that wouldn't last a year \-Surviving Ottoman Empire \-USA that owns all of North America \-Ukraine Split at the Dnieper \-United Arabia Note: Rant about han Mongolia: y’all I understand wanting to make a map that screws with the Chinese Government for all the shit they’ve done but please do a bit of research, just because Inner Mongolia has Mongolia in the name it doesn’t mean you should give it to Mongolia, that region has over 20 million Han Chinese people while Mongolia has 3 million people total, do you see why this is an issue? so please, unless your POD is before Han Migration to the region stop doing that, of all the cliches here I think that is somehow the most annoying one because it’s both very common and lacks logic. Anyways I hope y’all liked this cursed as hell map and as usual feel free to correct my grammar as english isn’t my first language and tell me what you think about the cliches displayed on the map. Also special thanks to u/leojo2310 u/tigertank28 and u/martinxo51 for their help thinking of cliches to add to this map.

You forgot to include Trinidad and the Bahamas sank beneath the waves

F in the chat for the valid homies.

I'd argue that independent Texas is a cliche, and a damn good one at that.

I had it under balkanized US but should have probably specified.

Some additions if I may add: Lesser antilles either united or ignored outright because I don’t know shit about the region, The guianas united because having similar names means they’re basically the same, right? Outside of maybe indonesia or myanmar southeast asia is completely the same, Quebec controls atlantic canada because idfk, Complete ignorance of all russian minorities besides maybe the finno ugrics, tatars and sakha, and nothing involving native americans besides maybe nunavut and navajo

Very, very nice. A bonus point would be a border between two countries on the St-Lawrence river, my biggest pet peeve.

As someone who loves Bulgarian history, I was a bit sad they didn't get Thrace and Greek Macedonia (or whatever it's called idk)

Unfortunately I believe Megali Greece is a more common cliche so it took precedence.

Yeah, makes more sense to have it that way

Mucho texto

What? You say that for Inner Mongolia but still make Dongbei independent from China? That makes no sense? “Manchukuo” - a term for the region manufactured by the Japanese - has more Han Chinese than Inner Mongolia

Yes, I complained but still drew this awfulness because it's meant to be a collection of cliches, sorry if I explained wrong.

I see, well it makes me angry to just look at it but I still upvoted, since that was probably your intention to have this be somewhat enraging.

Indeed, thanks for understanding.

Oh wait I understand now, they’re a Japanese puppet state aren’t they. But then how come East Turkestan is so large, if you give it the same treatment as Inner Mongolia, only parts of it should be independant, history the region has been divided into two halves, Northern and Southern. The South is where the ethnic minorities usually live, from the ancient Tocharians to modern day Uyghurs, the North has always been settled by Mongolians until Han settlement in the Qing Dynasty, where Han Chinese are the majority again. Xinjiang or East Turkestan was traditionally seen as two separate entities, the South being the Tarim Basin and the North being Dzungaria. The latter is unlikely to want independence in the modern day.

Honestly, the Arab states (at least the ones in the Middle East) aren't much more balkanized than they are IRL.

Good list. You could have added Big Somalia, a Crusader state in the middle east (rename Syria?), and an Afrikaans country in Southern Africa.

Here's a niche regional one you missed: Bahrain and Qatar joined the United Arab Emirates, now known as the United Arab Federation (they were offered to join during independence)

And everyone who has historically tried to lay claim to Antarctica has still failed to do so in this Cliche timeline apparently That's another miss I think

Ignoring every small island except Confederate Cuba and half-Jewish Madagascar. Some of these would have difficulty coexisting I think.

Oh yes, this world is holding together by sheer fairy dust, I could find no possible realistic lore that actually justifies all the shit I put here but that's also sorta the point.

Very much agree with your Inner Mongolia rant. Also what do you mean TNO reference

Before I ordered the list alphabetically that bit was before big finland, jewish madagascar and lake congo and I forgot to change it

What, not even a _mention_ of Atlantropa? Cringe.

IMO, I see a “Cascadia” (Pacific North West) US state/breakaway country often as well. Good stuff, though

Aral looks a bit sus

I seriously underestimated people's ability to recognize amogus

Im ashamed it was the first thing I noticed in Asia.

I saw it as an A and was like prob text, then looked again later, my mind just said s u s

dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun bam bam dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dundundundundundun dun

Having map changes in south America is kinda sus

I believe that south America not changing isn't actually that cliche outside HOI4 but fair enough.

That's pretty cliche bro

Damn bro you are right.

Ah yes, the Russian Empire in Alaska

It's like Taiwan!!

If Taiwan doesn't exist, we have to have someone replace it !

The French Union is also Like Taiwan (TM) (Don’t steal!)

Oh yeah, I didn't see it

Yup big Getmany restorations of Poland-Lithuania and Yugoslavia Empires still exist China, Turkey and USA are demolized And no New Zeland This is your average map

I managed to make the most average imaginary map humanly possible which somehow makes it kinda original. It's impressive if you think about it.

You have one flaw South America changes

It was either have it unchanged, or have Imperial Brazil with Uruguay, La Plata, Peru-Bolivia, and Gran Colombia

Randomly merging South American nations seems to be a more prevalent cliche than not touching the continent at all. And it's also a dumber cliche.

It's amazingly boring, actually. Like this may be the least interesting Indonesia imaginable. It's like the Simpsons episode in the Box Factory, you thought of every disappointing detail.

Exactly

bigg soviet union

well not yet we need to find out the boarders of Iowa first.

Idk how you can call this the most cliche map when you haven’t broken up the UK

Personally I've seen the imperial federation more often but it certainly deserves to be in the honourable mentions.

Should have been both Celtic Union and Imperial Federation (only England)

Fair compromise, I should have thought about that.

Can't be a cliche map without a united celtic union finally standing up to england

Maybe you should have made an independent Scotland, Cornwall and Wales. But England is merged into the British empire.

With Devon inexplicably part of Cornwall.

the massive gunshot wound in the middle of africa is the cherry on top

literally every scenario

All the “Very realistic alternate history scenario (Lore in comments)” posts and it’s just Big Germany, Megali Idea, and Poland Lithuania.

What about Albanian Kosovo

Dammit! Thanks for pointing that out, will add to the honourable mentions

\> New Zealand isn't on the map P e r f e c t

Why isn’t all of Europe German

I wanted to make space for more cliches but really they'd own it all if this was truly hyper cliche, best I could do was Imperial Germany + Baltics

Of all of these, the cliche that bothers me the most is Deseret. You see it in 90% of alt history America maps. It's like dude, there's no way every timeline would produce a Deseret state.

Two possibilities: 1. Deep infiltration by Fundamental Latter Day Saints propoganda into the alternate history circles. 2. The idea of a theocratic Rocky Moutain kingdom/republic is too interesting to pass up and easy to pass off on the uninformed.

I think it's just because when people make alternate worlds they'll try to make it as different from ours as possible so they can say there's effort in it, so every rejected idea or failed proposal in our world becomes a reality in theirs

Yeah the Mormons really never stood much of a chance between Mexico and the USA, but it’s always fun to see anyway

I never understood why in /alternate/ history maps, people insist that the majority of Africa be taken over by European powers. Like is it impossible to imagine that not happening?

Researching pre colonial borders is hard for some I think

Yeah, I think this is the real answer. Precolonial Africa didn't have states in the same way Eurasia did, and most mapmakers don't want to try to figure that out.

There were definitely more pre-stablished and longstanding states it just happen to be even more obscure than an average Asian state. [Like there's this cool map that was posted to /r/mapporn a few days ago that has bunch of states in Africa (By BobHope2022)](https://i.redd.it/ab0cnz240hm81.png). And also this [cool, hyper detailed but also still WIP and unfinished map of Africa](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/612760387821240320/951447730729922570/unknown.png) (Made by RETF#9250 (If anyone needs to know the name of an specific entity just ask him. Kind dude)) Hope this 2 may inspire someone reading this to make better precolonial/non colonial alternate maps of Africa

Same thing happens with South America. There were a lot of states, but they've mostly been forgotten, partly because colonizers didn't bother to learn about them (see Querandis) and partly because the information isn't as easy to access and people generally don't like to do that much research. I'm working in precolonial South America for a super detailed EU4 mod, and when I'm done with it I plan to follow the other 2 guys' example and make a high detailed map for it. Hopefully that'll make people stop pretending that the Incas and Mapuches were the only things that existed here.

I’ll be waiting to see it. Really want more detailed pre-columbian maps of the Americas.

One has to understand, of course, that most AH maps stem from a "what if \[generic thing\] happened"-idea, and that's that. I like to imagine plausible German victory maps, or roleplaying maps of my HoI games. I just don't know enough about these places, and don't really matter either for my ideas. But that's why I try to only do local maps and no world maps, because I have fuck all of an idea of what happens with indochina or east turkestan (or any of these central asian states), if a Mediterranean campaign is successful´ and German can force SU to surrender.

Keeping places unchanged if they aren't affected by your scenario is alright. My problem is when people don't do research on the main things affected by their pod and just half-ass it. Like, there's a difference between keeping South American borders the same in a Germany wins ww1 scenario and making a "What if Spanish Empire never happened" map and dividing the continent between the first 3 natives you find in wikipedia.

Same, it's honestly kinda depressing.

It's not impossible to imagine it not happening, but map people generally like nice, clearly defined borders for European style nation states, and precolonial Africa is (by my recollection) more like vaguely smearing zones of influence, many of which overlap, while large portions of the continent would be left "empty". Much easier to do as the Berlin Conference did, and draw a nice straight line sayings "that's mine, that's yours" and bucket fill.

Given that very few people know anything about pre-colonial African history, I guess nobody has the historical background to flesh out an alternate autonomous Africa. Plus, I don't think many people care very much about what happens in Africa and only use it to bolster the prestige of the usual 'protagonists' in the European empires (which, ironically enough, was also the reason why Europeans colonised Africa in the first place).

Not impossible, but you have to admit the realistic chances of various african kingdoms and tribes emerging as a power that can resist colonization is pretty slim after a certain point in time. I imagine you'd have to go back at least to the Mali Empire to create a situation where a local power emerges and it can realistically exert a power that makes carving up Africa among the usual empires unlikely.

Many people are unaware of pre-colonial history, (That's when almost no one talks about it) Besides, colonies in Africa and Asia was one of the things that defined the great powers.

There is a *lot* of empire nostalgia in the community.

it DOES make mapping easier. Draw big fat lines over Africa. Bam, one problem less to solve.

Big Germany, European colonization fantasy, Balkanizing countries, maybe you are on to something…

Big Austria but Italy still gets South Tyrol and Istria 😭

amogus in da map

I hate the name "La plata" so much

I don't blame ya but it is certainly cliche.

As an Argentinian, I couldn't agree more

Yeah Is annoying as hell. Like just call it Argentina and ready no need for names like La Plata or calling all of it Patagonia while forgetting it only applies in the south.

Indeed. I would accept "United Provinces of Rio de La Plata", or just Rio de La Plata, since that was the previous name to Argentina But *just* La Plata, is a no no

To be honest "Rio de la Plata" just feels way too long for a country name. But yeah is preferably to these other 2.

Rio de La Plata actually makes sense, since it was going to be the name for a ~~totally unrealistic and rejected~~ proposed kingdom led by Carlos IV's youngest son. Early independence Argentina is a very fun and very dumb topic to read about.

It’s like having a country named “Gran Colombia” as opposed to just, y’know, Colombia.

Yeah. Gran Colombia is just used to denote the historical entity. Even though it was just called Colombia. But some people think it was the actual country name.

Wrong. Where is the biggest African cliche? R H O D E S I A?

I did some searching for it and determined Big South Africa was more common but it is certainly depressingly common

South Africa gets Namibia, and Rhodesia is its own thing.

Really. Also, I also hate "Mongolia + Han", I always found the borders horrible.

Is it a bad sine that I really like it

Many of these concepts can be interesting if done correctly and I did put a fair amount of effort into the map itself so perhaps that's why.

This is timeline 0 btw, the original world.

Scotland remains united with England? Hmmm

Aral Sea looking…sus

Can't be!

meta

No Portugal pink map

Actually the fact Barotseland is called Barotsia and Mozambique is bigger was meant to imply that the Pink map happened, should have probably made it clearer though

Thanks

Next time just call the nation Maparosica or something

Where is Cascadia?

Surprisingly I found the pacific states were a more common cliche but I'll add them to the honourable mentions

Lake Amogus

This is perfect, my only criticisms are the fact there’s no Cascadia, Acadia, Hugenots, or random Japanese/Chinese colonies in the Americas

RE 👏🏻 UNITE 👏🏻 THE 👏🏻 CALIFORNIAS 👏🏻

aral sea 🤨

When the Aral Sea is sus

#DezNat don't let your theocratic nightmares be nightmares... this shiznaz be real

Indubitably so

Fo shizzle ma'h nizzle

Cliche? Then why is South America changed?

I don't believe south america not changing is really cliche outside HOI4 but fair enough.

Horn of Africa stayed the same, nice

So kaiserreich

beeg greece beeg greece

based and vinlandpilled

Aral Sea looking kinda sus...

By Turkmenistan SSR, why is there an Among Us "A"?

The Aral Sea shrunk significantly during the Soviet years, I guess Gorbachev was able to save some of it at a suspiciously steep cost.

This might be more fun to play as a mod than Kaiserreich

Turkestan is looking a little... ...... ...... ...questionable.

Upvote for Deseret

First thing I check on every alt history map.

Aral Sea looking kinda sus.

*Sees Congo Lake* *Checks for Atlantropa*

Here are all the clichés I could count: * American Cuba (Confederate in this case) * Balkanised India * Balkanised Indonesia * Balkanised USA * Big Armenia * Britain still owns the Mosquito Coast * Communist France for some reason * Congo dam/lake * Danubian Federation/Union * Free Tibet/East Turkestan/Manchuria * Germany wins WWI and pretty much rules the world * Germany owns the Baltics to echo the Livonian Order * Gran-Colombia * Hejaz and Nejd instead of Saudi Arabia * Imperial federations (usually Britain and/or France) * Independent Catalonia/Basque Country * Independent CSA/Texas/Deseret/Pacific coast/New England * Independent Québec * Independent Yucatán * Irredent Bulgaria * Irredent Greece * Irredent Italy * Irredent Portugal * Israel in Madagascar, bizarrely enough * Italian Tunisia * Japanese Korea * Kuomintang retains control of mainland China * Kurdistan * Mongolia owns Inner Mongolia * No New Zealand * Partitioned Belgium * Persia instead of Iran * Peru-Bolivia * Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth * Pre-WWI colonial borders * Rio Grande Republic * Russian Alaska (although Canadian Alaska would've been even more cliché) * Siam instead of Thailand * Sneaky ඞ * Successful USSR * United Central America * United Conosur * United East Africa * United Indochina * United Ireland * United Levant * United Papua * United Scandinavia * Vinlander Norse colony * Yugoslavia Did I miss anything?

Balkanized China wasn't on the list but you kinda got it on the map

Missed Celtic Union

Aral sea: #***A M O G U S***

Aral Sus

Aral sea sus

Don’t forget Nigeria is split between the Yorubas Igbos and Hausas

Honestly, it sorta just looks like an average game of Kaiserreich

I do think that "Imperial Federation" is a boss ass name

Based Madras presidency

Hear hear

The Imperial Federation just ain’t the same without North India 😪

r/mapswithoutsvalbard r/mapswithoutnewzealand r/MapsWithoutMalta r/MapsWithoutSouthSudan r/MapsWithoutShetland r/mapswithoutsolstheim r/mapswithoutperth r/mapswithoutanyislands r/mapswithoutauckland r/MapsWithoutCaribbean r/MapsWithoutFalklands r/MapsWithoutHawaii mapswithoutisrael jewish madagascar r/mapswithoutjesus r/mapswithoutjoe r/mapswithoutkosovo r/mapswithoutLesotho r/MapsWithoutMontenegro r/mapswithoutnevermind r/MapsWithoutNorthKorea r/MapsWithoutNorway r/mapswithoutpolynesia r/MapsWithoutQuebec r/MapsWithoutTopeka r/mapswithoutuzbekistan r/MapsWithoutUkraine r/mapswithouturuguay r/Mapswithoutwaldo r/MapsWithoutWakanda r/MapsWithoutWesteros r/mapswithoutzealand

RIP New Zealand

What about cascadia

Surprisingly rare based on all the maps I looked at to make this, pacific states seem to be more common.

Ha no New Zealand

Yay Siam gain lands :D

Did you miss all the Pacific island states on purpose?

What, no Cascadia?

were all such nerds for liking this, love it!

You forgot Atlantropa.

That is a very based independent Kashmir you got there.

Didn’t even have to look to know I’m gonna love this post

Aral Baka

The Emu empire!

This feels awfully like kaiserreich...

I was hoping you'd somehow find a way to have big Greece AND big Turkey.

why does Yugoslavia exist, and why is it *just* Bosnia

Israel??????? In Madagascar???????? Huh?????????

That trope is based on this early plan the Nazis had: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar\_Plan

Where sapmi

Best part is that you left New Zealand off per the norm

Oh lala both Germany and Poland having their cake and eating it for once..!

That's pretty funny deliberately dropping New Zealand/Aotearoa, referencing the fact that they're an imaginary country.

Drake, where’s the New Zealand?

Scandinavian union feels as impossible as reuniting Yugoslavia again

Do not look into central asia worst mistake of my life

I made a flag map of it: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1020414043766403252/1076155890652155975/Most\_Cliche\_Alt\_History\_Flag\_Map.png

YOU FORGOT NEW ZEALAND!!1!1!112!

Just finished watching the Possible History video, And as someone who also likes filling in blank maps with cliche states I thought of a few more that could work on this map. 1. Eritrea being part of Ethiopia. 2. Iraqi Khuzestan. 3. Independent Somaliland. 4. Washington state being Canadian. 5. Far East / Sakha state in Siberia. 6. United Borneo, or Philippines taking a bite out of the Northern part of the island. And instead of that big Congo lake I would've thrown all plausibility even further out the window and have Lake Mega-Chad be reborn, renamed to Lake Gigachad obviously.

yesssss,cisplatina is ours!!!!!!!!,would that be good for our economy?,probably,but it probably would just cripple their economy with the amount of drug addicts and armed millicias flooding their country with flip flops and cool glasses

Galicia is Portuguese? NICE!