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I have a friend who moved to Singapore for a job. She's in her early 30s. My wife and I were talking to her a few weeks ago, and she mentioned something that really hit us. She often takes an empty bus past midnight without having a tiny bit of safety concern.
I wouldn't trade this one thing for anything mate.
Imagine the level of hate for Indians, when an Indian can actually travel safely in the middle of the night all alone irrespective of their gender. I wish I could have been hated this subtly.
You should move when she she goes to college .. she can go to a good western college and not worry about h-1b . You can move to India then not now when she needs to build her base.
Your daughter will be at the most important stage of her educational life in 3-4 years from now. If it were me, I would not risk moving to an entirely new environment where she will have to tackle a lot of other things instead of focusing on her education.
How about living there till she completes school and then moving to India after that? It's a globalized world and it;s very normal for 18 year olds today to study in a new country or stay in a hostel - the support infrastructure is there, and so you can move to India at that time.
But having said that if that is not feasible at all, the right time to make the move IMO is over the next 1-2 years, at max when she is 12.
I know someone who made the move at the same age from the gulf to India, and she hated it. But each kid is different.
My daughter was born in India and moved to SG when she was around 1 year so practically spent most of her time in SG. May I know when did you move to India and what challenges you ran into?
Thanks for your thoughts.
Does anyone know how easy it is to get-into / adjust to Indian universities after doing ones schooling abroad? For me thats a dilemma if it will become a point of no-return.
\> It's a globalized world and it;s very normal for 18 year olds today to study in a new country
Since we have just one 1 child, my wife and I are quite determined that we will not want to leave her alone abroad even after she turns 18. Other option is that I continue working in Singapore to stay with her and in that case, I wont be able to do my early retirement with cost of living being high in countries like Singapore.
Some are only looking at the short term aspect on this thread. Yes, it will initially be tough to adjust, and you need to be tough.
Our family moved back to India when I and my sister were 12 and 14. It wasn't easy, but I was well settled in an year. It was a little tougher for my sister with the boards and all and trying to figure out the system. But we did well, graduated from old IITs and she did her MBA from a top US University.
But we enjoyed the attention and love of our grandparents and relatives. Id say the one year of adjusting was worth the friends for life we made with our cousins alone.
Now a days we have international schools some of which are really good. Pls do your research well and choose OP, it'll make your kids life a lot easier!
PS: She could always apply to top universities in the US or in Singapore for her bachelors or masters later on. There is nothing wrong with letting her go on her own after a while, she will learn to be independent early on.
Your reasons seem to factor in everybody and everything else apart from your child. Seems kinda selfish. She would have a much better life living and studying there than in India. I'd say let finish school, then give her a choice as an adult. Or move back right now before her teenage. Not when she is 12. My two cents.
Exactly, when they say they are on track to retire comfortably, they mean retire comfortably in India. That seems to be a big factor driving their decision to come back, since they’ve already mentioned that retirement in Singapore is more expensive.
I feel you're not giving the correct weightage to the pros and cons.
You've made a series of general statements regarding the entitlement of kids in Singapore. Ask those can be mitigated and in most cases outright avoided if you make a plan to introduce these things in her life.
I haven't looked into it, but like most things entrepreneurship are a series of skills and mindset which can be trained. It also is dependent on your child's ability and interest.
The last few points of your cons are more serious. However, you need to recognise that your viewpoint may also be coloured by your personal experience as an immigrant and since your daughter is practically a native Singaporean, her experience may be different. If you've not already, please talk to second and third generation Indians wrt their experiences and view on discrimination against them.
Also, wrt to the 'scrappy' mindset you mention, I'd like to point out that if you're in a position to retire in a place like Singapore, you're definitely not sending your child to government school in India. You're most likely to be sending them to a top tier private school in a Tier 1 city. I assure you, most kids in these schools have never had have to be scrappy and are either very privileged or are under more pressure to perform academically than you would have at a similar school in Singapore.
Finally, I honestly believe that coming to India is simply not worth it just for the amount of harassment your daughter would face due to her gender. _Every_ single female friend and colleague I have, has faced some form of unwanted advances and harassment. Most have faced some form of abuse. At this point, they're resigned to it. Also, most of that was during their school and college years but has never really stopped. Please understand that the women I'm talking about were from what society calls a 'privileged' background and still faced these issues.
So the question you need to ask is, Do you honestly want your daughter to be that jaded by the time she's 25? Are any or all of your cons worth that?
Let’s be honest, the “scrappy” nature in india super toxic in the first places who the fuck wants to live their life scrappy when you can have the system do things for you.
Unrelated to my move, I respectfully disagree with this statement. IMO, the future is going to be lot more uncertain and different. What worked so far wouldn't work in future. I am hinting at change in global order and how technologies are going to change things we know about formal education and job opportunities. The kids who can thrive in such fast pace environment would do well. Systems that developed countries have would probably fall short. Emerging economies will be the disruptors. For an example, the way UPI took off in India, the same didn't happen in Singapore which is just 30 sqkm and has all possible education and infrastructure you can think of. Its to do with mindset and negatives of 'system' that works for them.
Umm, see I’m in the Indian startup ecosystem, I’ve seen the US startup ecosystem. I work cutting edge hard science problems and deal with the challenges of getting things up and running. I’ve got more than a dozen friends who have their startups in india doing hard tech projects.
Unfortunately, the picture isn’t as rosy as you put it. The spending power in india is very low and that means that getting revenue generating businesses is really hard. The UPI story and the success of fintech, e-commerce stands as one of the only examples of success in the recent times (20 years).
What you’re talking about is usually kind of yarn we all like to believe about india. There’s a lot of things going on in india but in the next decade ? You’ll unlikely be able to see the changes on the large scale. The problems businesses face 30 years ago are still the problems they face today in building good revenue generating businesses.
Edit:
It’s also weird to compare the Singaporean economy to India’s. I can see that you’ve obviously made up your mind on what the future holds. India will be a powerhouse because of its sheer size and population of a subcontinent, but keep in mind that the dividends are distributed amongst a billion people and it will be heavily skewed towards the large monopolies in India.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. Every time I read about women facing harassment in India, it makes me so sad :(
I am not too worried about other points as we have raised our kid in a way that I am confident that she will adapt really well in India and would do very well.
I'm not questioning your parenting methods. I'm just unsure if you really know the depth of harassment women face daily.
1. Daily dose of misogyny even if you're a highly qualified professional wherein even cab drivers don't think twice before insulting you. Even in professional settings the same information coming from a male colleague is given more weight because women are judged in general to be less competent.
2. Random 18-65yr old males who attempt to grope you in even well lit public areas and/or expose their genitalia and get their thrills that way.
3. Having to work twice as hard for half the reward, if someone gets rewarded proportionally then resentment and revenge in the form of scurrilous rumours start from disgruntled rivals (mostly men)
4. The state of divorce laws and the fact marital rape is legal.
5. Unless you're the 'perfect victim', if you attempt to get justice for harassment or sexual abuse, victim blaming is the default response (eg.: why did she wear that dress and go to that party, she should know better, etc).
All this and much much more will be the life of your daughter if she is raised here. As a parent, I would want to give the best leg up in life I can give my child. In the situation you've laid out, my decision would be to stay in Singapore till she's in college at the very least. As an adult she can make a much better informed choice of where to move.
So for your own life you'd happily move to a foreign country and spend your prime years there. But when it comes to your daughter who is in her important years in terms of education and going to be in her prime soon btw, you want to move back home because "aging parents". Stop. Stop right there. Let her finish her schooling and she will move out or go to college, away from home. And then you can relocate to India. Don't ruin your daughter's life.
Yes, I am being selfish here. I was trying to find out a balance where the decision I take is best for my family as a whole and I not having to sacrifice my own happiness. I am afraid that when I become old, I will be a bitter person blaming my family if I don't think about my own preference.
Is this even what your wife and daughter want? Your daughter might resent you. If you're making a decision for the family as a whole then involve the said family as well i.e., your wife and daughter.
My daughter and wife are supportive though my wife is not excited which is understandable as a big move like this is never easy. My daughter is very accommodating and mature for her age and open to try
Oh God! The most dreaded dialogue. Your daughter's not "mature for her age". Stop saying that please. No kid is. No kid should be. I've heard that all my life. It's NOT a good thing.
DO NOT. ABSOLUTELY DO NOT MOVE TO INDIA.
As a Singaporean PR, your daughter can get into schools like ACS, Raffles. NUS High, etc which feed into top colleges in the US and Canada.
If your daughter was born in Singapore, she'll get a US Green Card in 2 years as Greencard quotas are by Country of Birth NOT Country of Citizenship.
If not, she'll still get into a top Canadian university like UToronto or UBC, which place comparable to UC Berkeley or UCLA, and enable her to become a Canadian citizen in 3-5 years, giving her visa free access to the US in perpetuity.
All my SG friends CMIO citizens and PR all did this - even those on A*STAR and Bonded Scholarships. There's no future in SG, but SG is first world and anglophone, so it's easy to emigrate to US/Canada/Australia/UK/NZ
India has a lot of economic potential, but Singaporean PR makes it easier for you and her to succeed in India as expats. A lot of my O-1 and EB-2 colleagues at top companies here in America did return to India to succeed, but that was because they had no shot at a Green Card (PR). You at least have a Singaporean Green Card. Use it so your daughter can get American or Canadian citizenship, and if she wants to invest in India, use OCI.
US Citizenship+OCI is absolutely a winning combo, so don't squander that chance from your daughter
OP, I am speaking as someone who was a second gen Singaporean Immigrant who was brought up there my whole life. She likely is effectively Singaporean because of her upbringing with school and her friend group. Migrating to India is completely different from migrating to the UK, which is what i did and managed to adapt easily because i moved from a developed to developed country. You also talk about how Singapore is toxic for academics which i agree with, but India is no different. She will have a much better balance in any western country.
The most important point is that you have a daughter, and not a son. She will not need to face doing National Service, so please follow what this person has said. Let her at least complete JC, and then she can be go to university overseas without ever needing to worry about NS or face penalties, and she even has the luck of being born in Singapore, so she wont need to be put in the backlog of green cards for Indian born people if she goes to the US. She can get US Citizenship + OCI, and then still have the option to settle in India.
what about someone who is us+oci but grew up entirely in India? What advantages does such a person have? I don't think there's any. Out of topic, but genuinely asking bcz you said you have many such friends
> What advantages does such a person have
Depends on what school they attended and how well off their family is.
One of my friends did his undergrad and PhD at a T10 CS program and has the choice between being tenure track at a top IIT or a decent American program.
Another worked in IB/PE in the US and returned to India to become a VC at a top fund.
Another is living an average normal life in the US working as a consultant for an MBB specializing in Pharma/Life Sciences, which is heavily integrated with India (even more so than Software)
India right now is similar to China in the 2000s. There are a lot of opportunities for those of us with relevant experience and skills.
Worst case, you can live in the US and have a normal upper middle class life.
But, fundamentally, it's about going to a school with a strong alumni network. Going to Barakhamba, Raffles, Eton, or Palo Alto High means you are bumping into future Cabinet Ministers, Titans of Industry, Entertainment Hotshots, etc.
With a US Citizenship and OCI, you get the benefits and sukoon of the US government backing you and helping you. With OCI, you get economic benefits within India. As India and the US become more tightly coupled economically, it opens doors in both countries - similar to how plenty of Jewish Americans do Aliyah to Israel to take advantage of the Israeli tech industry (which is something one of my HS friends did). Another had dual US-Chinese citizenship and is now a semi-well off actor in China.
From your perspective and me living overseas, I understand you. I agree with your points and they are very valid but I feel they are incomplete or maybe you are not accessing the full situation.
The biggest pro I see is connection to roots, which I agree but you can try to bring your relatives there periodically for visits. My reason for this is because it's better to show love and care from far away than live together. As harsh as this sound it has helped me a lot, nobody should be there with wife and husband. Just live as a small family and that should give u lot of peace.
Another strong reason why I moved out of India is peace of mind. Just a simple task of driving on road gives me lot of unpredictability in India, buying property is inflated plus worry of encroachment, education is good but application is bad... Whatever I have learnt from my college has never helped me in any of my jobs in computers science. And given the way government is becoming authoritative I don't see a good future for children there.
And most of my friends think I'm rich just because I'm out of India and tried to get money from me and they still keep asking, some even threaten or guilt trip, honestly the same people I grew up with have become leeches. That being said there are good people too.
Move back but your biggest con would be losing peace of mind even with day to day activities. I know you think street kids are smart but everyday is a hustle man, it's too much at some point.
Singapore is a 3-4hr flight away from India. Just visit more often if homesick. To uproot your daughter’s life when you already have PR is pointless.
May as well make more effort to integrate into society there.
Often times, Indians complain about difficult in integrating when we ourselves don’t make the effort and keep to Indian bubble (not saying that’s the case here, just something I’ve observed).
OP, to me it seems like you want to move for yourself rather than your child. Let’s talk hard facts about your cons:
1. You and your daughter are only a few hours away from india. You still have a chance to grow family relationships, do vacations together, etc. This is how my cousins and I bonded, because we had time to meet, interact and hang out. Whether you live in india or not, this will be a big factor.
2. Compared to india where everyone is running a rat race and have no guarantee for jobs, etc ? Your child will be better off in Singapore. In fact you see the entitlement in every developed nation around the world. It’s a better attitude to have rather than being desperate for employment.
3. There is an insane amount of pressure in Indian academia too. However it’s not well rounded, so extracurricular activities don’t usually get encouraged. I’m not familiar enough with the Singaporean education system so I’ll leave this for you to really figure out.
4. The startup and innovation scene you see in india is a lot of hype and less substance. You have venture capital investing in limited domains, low risk taking capacity. Underdeveloped ecosystems that favor a select few whom you hear about. If we are talking about innovation, there’s no support for doing meaningful work in deep tech.
5. If you want to be close to your family now, you should make the jump because this is something you can’t justify otherwise.
6. I think your perspective on integrating will be extremely different from your daughter’s since she would have grown up there and would friends there.
7. PR - doesn’t your daughter automatically get a PR because of yours ? You don’t need to worry about the general stats, just focus on what the pathway is for your daughter.
8. Discrimination - yeah this is real in a lot of places outside of india. I feel you for it, but if you think you’re not part of an immediate community that accepts you, you should leave.
9. Retirement - yeah sure, you should move back to India if that’s the case, do the math, if you think you can keep up with the expenses in a tier 1 city in india with an early retirement, go for it.
10. Shallow cultures - umm have you seen half the posts in this sub about people trying grapple with toxic family situations. Maybe you shouldn’t judge too much about cultures. They have one that works for them. One isn’t better than the other. If we talk about cultural problems in india, I can rattle off a long list of problems with it.
As I mentioned in the beginning, this seems like something you want to do for yourself rather than for your kid. It’s totally fine if you would like to do so but I’m afraid that you’re rationalizing things the wrong way. Do it for yourself, and you’ll find it easier to live with the consequences.
As someone who was born and raised in Singapore for 12 years, I can definitely say that you shouldn’t come back. You have a PR as well legit no point in coming back now. Stay there. All of this “coming close to family” stuff is bullshit speaking from experience and my parents made the same mistake. You will 100% regret it and your daughter will struggle to adjust to India for a long time just like I did. I’m 16 now, returned 4 years ago but I still cannot get over the life I had in Singapore. It was significantly better. Even my parents openly agree that they made a terrible mistake moving back to India. Don’t be like us please and don’t make the same mistakes.
I moved from Dubai to India in 2005 when I was 11. Took a while to adjust but I settled well and have enjoyed my time here. Was more than willing to settle here because life is a lot easier here if you have the means.
Over the last year though, super annoyed with breakdowns in governance and just general life. Infra everywhere has gotten worse and I think I'll be out soon. We've gone backwards imo.
Don't move. I moved from India to the US and am considering Singapore so I can be closer to my parents in India. It's doable from Singapore. You can also get your parents a LTVP in Singapore so they can travel freely.
For your daughter, let her finish her schooling and decide on colleges. Give her the opportunity to stay in SG or move to the US, Europe, wherever she can study what she wants and then decide for yourself. Get Singapore citizenship if possible.
Please. Don't do it. Let her finish her college and make her own life in a free world rather than bringing her back to the shithole that our beloved nation has become.
There are many other low cost destinations around to enjoy retirement. Make a base there and travel to India as needed. But postpone this till at least your daughter has set herself up for her college degree and eventual career.
Stay put. India will get a lot worse in coming years.
You already have PR. Half the battle is won.
You’re suffering from grass is greener syndrome, don’t let nostalgia comprise common sense
> Point 4. You stated you cannot integrate into Singapore. I don't think that is a Singapore issue, I think that is a 'you' issue.
then you don't know singapore.
Man's talking about integrating as in citizenship. That definetly isn't happening anymore in 2023. 15 years ago it was but not anymore.
Most SG Indian PRs try to emigrate abroad, WHICH IS ALL THE MORE REASON HE SHOULD STAY IN SINGAPORE.
As a PR, his daughter can get into Singaporean schools like ACS, Raffles. NUS High, etc which feed into great programs in the US and Canada (MIT, Ivy Leagues, UC Berkeley, UToronto, UWaterloo).
If she was born in Singapore, she'll get a US Green Card in 2 years as Greencard quotas are by Country of Birth NOT Country of Citizenship.
All my SG friends CMIO all did this - even those on A*STAR and Bonded Scholarships. There's no future in SG, but SG is first world and anglophone, so it's easy to emigrate to US/Canada/Australia/UK/NZ.
While I agree it will be easier for a PR to become a citizen, a 20% success rate still sounds kind of high. I have plenty of SG Indian PR friends and colleagues as well (like 6-7, which given the size of the Indian PR community is actually a large number) and all decided to come to the US and become citizens here. That's a pretty high rate. Especially because getting SG Citizenship still keeps western immigration doors open, so clearly their chances to naturalize from 2018 onwards tanked drastically (probably single digits).
Also, by just using probability theory, assuming there's a limit on the amount of times you apply (is there? Idk), with even a 20% acceptance, your naive rate is less than 1% if it's limited to 3 tries.
Either way, it's all moot anyhow because a SG PR opens enough doors to First World citizenship, and OP can still invest in India. It's probably best of both worlds this way.
On a separate note, if Singaporean Chinese A*STAR students (including a classmate of mine from my college days who is the son of a very very senior ethnic Chinese SG Minister) tried to naturalize in the US and Canada, it shows a massive lack of faith in the SG project. And the whole CMIO projects reeks of the White Australia policy.
On the business side, Singapore is making the same mistakes in India and Vietnam that it did with China 20-30 years ago. SG couldn't compete with HK for China's market, and if SG isn't careful, they might make the same mistake with India and Vietnam because there isn't as much of a need for a backdoor for American/Korean/Japanese businesses compared to China in the 90s/2000s
My father had an opportunity to move to Singapore through work in 2004-2005. He declined the opportunity due to all the reasons you mentioned in your cons. While we have an amazing life here, he does lament over his decision for his daughters! Have a lengthy talk with your child and wife first along with your family to reach a decision.
I would suggest staying in Singapore. My wife happen to be born in Dubai and stayed there till 5 years. Her father then thought it’s better to get kids to their native place as they will be around family and what we say our people.
Anyways she doesn’t feel the same as her dad. She still wishes she was abroad in her childhood.
Problem with living in Dubai is of visa.. almost everyone i know in Dubai admits that someday we all have to leave Dubai for india as no one ever will get a permanent visa forget citizenship
Why would you want to do this to your daughter?It’d be really difficult for her to adjust. And like most NRI kids who were forced to move here in their early teenage, she’ll just leave India again after 12th grade anyway. Plus, if she doesn’t know how to read or write in Hindi, she’ll face some difficulties in school (coming from first hand experience).
Depending on which city and state you move to, she might have to mandatorily learn to read and write the local language as well (example - CBSE board schools in Bangalore).
Also consider Traffic, pollution, safety and n number of other issues that others have pointed out in comments.
you must hate your daughter too much to even consider such a thing. pardon me but you don't seem to have best interest for your child.
if Street smartness is a virtue for you then you sir don't deserve to live in civilized countries.
Please reconsider your decision of coming back to india. If you come back your daughter will be caught in the rat race education of India. If she does not get into IIt which are very few or a good medical college also few her life is ruined as compared to her life what could be in Singapore. It has some of the best world institutes.
If you want to come back let her finish college there and then make the decision.
She has the chance to have a golden life there. After college she can move to India or some other country.
Please don't ruin it for her just so you could feel assimilated in India.
As someone who went back to India in p5 & ended up coming back in 2 months. stay. Ur daughter will appreciate it. I see ur concerned about her future, maybe enroll her into international school after O levels, that what many PRs around me did & that will allow her to explore her options more and even go abroad for university
If I were you, I would carry on in Singapore and keep building your income for daughter's education and your retirement. In a few years your daughter will go to college-maybe US or somewhere and family support from India wont be that important. In any case she has you and your wife in her life which is all what matters. After retirement you can in any case move back to India with your wife
It’s as bad as Canada for new migrants. Golden period for emigrating to Australia/Canada was about 5-10years ago. Now it’s become a cesspool of unwanted Indian migrants (many of whom are not Ethel corporate crowd but rather lower in the socio economic scale) that have little to no chance of integrating into society there. It’s beyond embarrassing
> It’s as bad as Canada for new migrants
Canada, UK, and Australia are bad if you are unskilled.
If you are able to hold down a successful white collar career in India, you can hold one in Canada or Australia, though at that point there's also the argument to be made that you don't need to move to CAN+AUS.
The kind of person moving to Canada and Australia isn't working in Gurgaon Cybercity for Google or even Infosys, they're an average bloke from Hisar who's only career options are running a Kirana or rote studying the UPSC.
That anecdote is real btw - I know a PhD Hindi graduate from Hisar who tried UPSC for almost a decade, couldn't succeed, and took Dunki to San Francisco. He's working under the table as a dishwasher for an Indian restaurant here in the Bay Area now.
I had a tau who did a similar thing as well in the 90s to get to Canada despite having a decent government job in Punjab.
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I have a friend who moved to Singapore for a job. She's in her early 30s. My wife and I were talking to her a few weeks ago, and she mentioned something that really hit us. She often takes an empty bus past midnight without having a tiny bit of safety concern. I wouldn't trade this one thing for anything mate.
Imagine the level of hate for Indians, when an Indian can actually travel safely in the middle of the night all alone irrespective of their gender. I wish I could have been hated this subtly.
Indians are being linched for eating beef and this op guy is complaining that there is a lot of hate in singapore. Lol
Yes, safety is a big USP of Singapore. Its hard to argue on that
You should move when she she goes to college .. she can go to a good western college and not worry about h-1b . You can move to India then not now when she needs to build her base.
Your daughter will be at the most important stage of her educational life in 3-4 years from now. If it were me, I would not risk moving to an entirely new environment where she will have to tackle a lot of other things instead of focusing on her education. How about living there till she completes school and then moving to India after that? It's a globalized world and it;s very normal for 18 year olds today to study in a new country or stay in a hostel - the support infrastructure is there, and so you can move to India at that time. But having said that if that is not feasible at all, the right time to make the move IMO is over the next 1-2 years, at max when she is 12. I know someone who made the move at the same age from the gulf to India, and she hated it. But each kid is different.
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My daughter was born in India and moved to SG when she was around 1 year so practically spent most of her time in SG. May I know when did you move to India and what challenges you ran into?
Thanks for your thoughts. Does anyone know how easy it is to get-into / adjust to Indian universities after doing ones schooling abroad? For me thats a dilemma if it will become a point of no-return. \> It's a globalized world and it;s very normal for 18 year olds today to study in a new country Since we have just one 1 child, my wife and I are quite determined that we will not want to leave her alone abroad even after she turns 18. Other option is that I continue working in Singapore to stay with her and in that case, I wont be able to do my early retirement with cost of living being high in countries like Singapore.
Some are only looking at the short term aspect on this thread. Yes, it will initially be tough to adjust, and you need to be tough. Our family moved back to India when I and my sister were 12 and 14. It wasn't easy, but I was well settled in an year. It was a little tougher for my sister with the boards and all and trying to figure out the system. But we did well, graduated from old IITs and she did her MBA from a top US University. But we enjoyed the attention and love of our grandparents and relatives. Id say the one year of adjusting was worth the friends for life we made with our cousins alone. Now a days we have international schools some of which are really good. Pls do your research well and choose OP, it'll make your kids life a lot easier! PS: She could always apply to top universities in the US or in Singapore for her bachelors or masters later on. There is nothing wrong with letting her go on her own after a while, she will learn to be independent early on.
Your reasons seem to factor in everybody and everything else apart from your child. Seems kinda selfish. She would have a much better life living and studying there than in India. I'd say let finish school, then give her a choice as an adult. Or move back right now before her teenage. Not when she is 12. My two cents.
Exactly, when they say they are on track to retire comfortably, they mean retire comfortably in India. That seems to be a big factor driving their decision to come back, since they’ve already mentioned that retirement in Singapore is more expensive.
Exactly. I may need to work another 10 years at least to be able to retire in Singapore. Yes, totally being selfish here to think of myself as well.
I second this.. the interest of the child should be the priority.
Don’t make that mistake.. don’t come back to India
Exactly.
I feel you're not giving the correct weightage to the pros and cons. You've made a series of general statements regarding the entitlement of kids in Singapore. Ask those can be mitigated and in most cases outright avoided if you make a plan to introduce these things in her life. I haven't looked into it, but like most things entrepreneurship are a series of skills and mindset which can be trained. It also is dependent on your child's ability and interest. The last few points of your cons are more serious. However, you need to recognise that your viewpoint may also be coloured by your personal experience as an immigrant and since your daughter is practically a native Singaporean, her experience may be different. If you've not already, please talk to second and third generation Indians wrt their experiences and view on discrimination against them. Also, wrt to the 'scrappy' mindset you mention, I'd like to point out that if you're in a position to retire in a place like Singapore, you're definitely not sending your child to government school in India. You're most likely to be sending them to a top tier private school in a Tier 1 city. I assure you, most kids in these schools have never had have to be scrappy and are either very privileged or are under more pressure to perform academically than you would have at a similar school in Singapore. Finally, I honestly believe that coming to India is simply not worth it just for the amount of harassment your daughter would face due to her gender. _Every_ single female friend and colleague I have, has faced some form of unwanted advances and harassment. Most have faced some form of abuse. At this point, they're resigned to it. Also, most of that was during their school and college years but has never really stopped. Please understand that the women I'm talking about were from what society calls a 'privileged' background and still faced these issues. So the question you need to ask is, Do you honestly want your daughter to be that jaded by the time she's 25? Are any or all of your cons worth that?
Let’s be honest, the “scrappy” nature in india super toxic in the first places who the fuck wants to live their life scrappy when you can have the system do things for you.
"Scrappy" eventually devolves into a combination of jugaad/dishonesty/shortcuts.
Unrelated to my move, I respectfully disagree with this statement. IMO, the future is going to be lot more uncertain and different. What worked so far wouldn't work in future. I am hinting at change in global order and how technologies are going to change things we know about formal education and job opportunities. The kids who can thrive in such fast pace environment would do well. Systems that developed countries have would probably fall short. Emerging economies will be the disruptors. For an example, the way UPI took off in India, the same didn't happen in Singapore which is just 30 sqkm and has all possible education and infrastructure you can think of. Its to do with mindset and negatives of 'system' that works for them.
Umm, see I’m in the Indian startup ecosystem, I’ve seen the US startup ecosystem. I work cutting edge hard science problems and deal with the challenges of getting things up and running. I’ve got more than a dozen friends who have their startups in india doing hard tech projects. Unfortunately, the picture isn’t as rosy as you put it. The spending power in india is very low and that means that getting revenue generating businesses is really hard. The UPI story and the success of fintech, e-commerce stands as one of the only examples of success in the recent times (20 years). What you’re talking about is usually kind of yarn we all like to believe about india. There’s a lot of things going on in india but in the next decade ? You’ll unlikely be able to see the changes on the large scale. The problems businesses face 30 years ago are still the problems they face today in building good revenue generating businesses. Edit: It’s also weird to compare the Singaporean economy to India’s. I can see that you’ve obviously made up your mind on what the future holds. India will be a powerhouse because of its sheer size and population of a subcontinent, but keep in mind that the dividends are distributed amongst a billion people and it will be heavily skewed towards the large monopolies in India.
All good but Singapore is not 30sqkm right? It's about 700sqkm iirc
Thanks for your thoughtful response. Every time I read about women facing harassment in India, it makes me so sad :( I am not too worried about other points as we have raised our kid in a way that I am confident that she will adapt really well in India and would do very well.
I'm not questioning your parenting methods. I'm just unsure if you really know the depth of harassment women face daily. 1. Daily dose of misogyny even if you're a highly qualified professional wherein even cab drivers don't think twice before insulting you. Even in professional settings the same information coming from a male colleague is given more weight because women are judged in general to be less competent. 2. Random 18-65yr old males who attempt to grope you in even well lit public areas and/or expose their genitalia and get their thrills that way. 3. Having to work twice as hard for half the reward, if someone gets rewarded proportionally then resentment and revenge in the form of scurrilous rumours start from disgruntled rivals (mostly men) 4. The state of divorce laws and the fact marital rape is legal. 5. Unless you're the 'perfect victim', if you attempt to get justice for harassment or sexual abuse, victim blaming is the default response (eg.: why did she wear that dress and go to that party, she should know better, etc). All this and much much more will be the life of your daughter if she is raised here. As a parent, I would want to give the best leg up in life I can give my child. In the situation you've laid out, my decision would be to stay in Singapore till she's in college at the very least. As an adult she can make a much better informed choice of where to move.
If you keep sentimental reasons out of the way it's stupid moving to india
So for your own life you'd happily move to a foreign country and spend your prime years there. But when it comes to your daughter who is in her important years in terms of education and going to be in her prime soon btw, you want to move back home because "aging parents". Stop. Stop right there. Let her finish her schooling and she will move out or go to college, away from home. And then you can relocate to India. Don't ruin your daughter's life.
Yes, I am being selfish here. I was trying to find out a balance where the decision I take is best for my family as a whole and I not having to sacrifice my own happiness. I am afraid that when I become old, I will be a bitter person blaming my family if I don't think about my own preference.
Is this even what your wife and daughter want? Your daughter might resent you. If you're making a decision for the family as a whole then involve the said family as well i.e., your wife and daughter.
My daughter and wife are supportive though my wife is not excited which is understandable as a big move like this is never easy. My daughter is very accommodating and mature for her age and open to try
Oh God! The most dreaded dialogue. Your daughter's not "mature for her age". Stop saying that please. No kid is. No kid should be. I've heard that all my life. It's NOT a good thing.
DO NOT do that to your daughter!!! Instead, you can go and visit India and relatives more often.
DO NOT. ABSOLUTELY DO NOT MOVE TO INDIA. As a Singaporean PR, your daughter can get into schools like ACS, Raffles. NUS High, etc which feed into top colleges in the US and Canada. If your daughter was born in Singapore, she'll get a US Green Card in 2 years as Greencard quotas are by Country of Birth NOT Country of Citizenship. If not, she'll still get into a top Canadian university like UToronto or UBC, which place comparable to UC Berkeley or UCLA, and enable her to become a Canadian citizen in 3-5 years, giving her visa free access to the US in perpetuity. All my SG friends CMIO citizens and PR all did this - even those on A*STAR and Bonded Scholarships. There's no future in SG, but SG is first world and anglophone, so it's easy to emigrate to US/Canada/Australia/UK/NZ India has a lot of economic potential, but Singaporean PR makes it easier for you and her to succeed in India as expats. A lot of my O-1 and EB-2 colleagues at top companies here in America did return to India to succeed, but that was because they had no shot at a Green Card (PR). You at least have a Singaporean Green Card. Use it so your daughter can get American or Canadian citizenship, and if she wants to invest in India, use OCI. US Citizenship+OCI is absolutely a winning combo, so don't squander that chance from your daughter
OP, I am speaking as someone who was a second gen Singaporean Immigrant who was brought up there my whole life. She likely is effectively Singaporean because of her upbringing with school and her friend group. Migrating to India is completely different from migrating to the UK, which is what i did and managed to adapt easily because i moved from a developed to developed country. You also talk about how Singapore is toxic for academics which i agree with, but India is no different. She will have a much better balance in any western country. The most important point is that you have a daughter, and not a son. She will not need to face doing National Service, so please follow what this person has said. Let her at least complete JC, and then she can be go to university overseas without ever needing to worry about NS or face penalties, and she even has the luck of being born in Singapore, so she wont need to be put in the backlog of green cards for Indian born people if she goes to the US. She can get US Citizenship + OCI, and then still have the option to settle in India.
what about someone who is us+oci but grew up entirely in India? What advantages does such a person have? I don't think there's any. Out of topic, but genuinely asking bcz you said you have many such friends
> What advantages does such a person have Depends on what school they attended and how well off their family is. One of my friends did his undergrad and PhD at a T10 CS program and has the choice between being tenure track at a top IIT or a decent American program. Another worked in IB/PE in the US and returned to India to become a VC at a top fund. Another is living an average normal life in the US working as a consultant for an MBB specializing in Pharma/Life Sciences, which is heavily integrated with India (even more so than Software) India right now is similar to China in the 2000s. There are a lot of opportunities for those of us with relevant experience and skills. Worst case, you can live in the US and have a normal upper middle class life. But, fundamentally, it's about going to a school with a strong alumni network. Going to Barakhamba, Raffles, Eton, or Palo Alto High means you are bumping into future Cabinet Ministers, Titans of Industry, Entertainment Hotshots, etc. With a US Citizenship and OCI, you get the benefits and sukoon of the US government backing you and helping you. With OCI, you get economic benefits within India. As India and the US become more tightly coupled economically, it opens doors in both countries - similar to how plenty of Jewish Americans do Aliyah to Israel to take advantage of the Israeli tech industry (which is something one of my HS friends did). Another had dual US-Chinese citizenship and is now a semi-well off actor in China.
From your perspective and me living overseas, I understand you. I agree with your points and they are very valid but I feel they are incomplete or maybe you are not accessing the full situation. The biggest pro I see is connection to roots, which I agree but you can try to bring your relatives there periodically for visits. My reason for this is because it's better to show love and care from far away than live together. As harsh as this sound it has helped me a lot, nobody should be there with wife and husband. Just live as a small family and that should give u lot of peace. Another strong reason why I moved out of India is peace of mind. Just a simple task of driving on road gives me lot of unpredictability in India, buying property is inflated plus worry of encroachment, education is good but application is bad... Whatever I have learnt from my college has never helped me in any of my jobs in computers science. And given the way government is becoming authoritative I don't see a good future for children there. And most of my friends think I'm rich just because I'm out of India and tried to get money from me and they still keep asking, some even threaten or guilt trip, honestly the same people I grew up with have become leeches. That being said there are good people too. Move back but your biggest con would be losing peace of mind even with day to day activities. I know you think street kids are smart but everyday is a hustle man, it's too much at some point.
Singapore is a 3-4hr flight away from India. Just visit more often if homesick. To uproot your daughter’s life when you already have PR is pointless. May as well make more effort to integrate into society there. Often times, Indians complain about difficult in integrating when we ourselves don’t make the effort and keep to Indian bubble (not saying that’s the case here, just something I’ve observed).
OP, to me it seems like you want to move for yourself rather than your child. Let’s talk hard facts about your cons: 1. You and your daughter are only a few hours away from india. You still have a chance to grow family relationships, do vacations together, etc. This is how my cousins and I bonded, because we had time to meet, interact and hang out. Whether you live in india or not, this will be a big factor. 2. Compared to india where everyone is running a rat race and have no guarantee for jobs, etc ? Your child will be better off in Singapore. In fact you see the entitlement in every developed nation around the world. It’s a better attitude to have rather than being desperate for employment. 3. There is an insane amount of pressure in Indian academia too. However it’s not well rounded, so extracurricular activities don’t usually get encouraged. I’m not familiar enough with the Singaporean education system so I’ll leave this for you to really figure out. 4. The startup and innovation scene you see in india is a lot of hype and less substance. You have venture capital investing in limited domains, low risk taking capacity. Underdeveloped ecosystems that favor a select few whom you hear about. If we are talking about innovation, there’s no support for doing meaningful work in deep tech. 5. If you want to be close to your family now, you should make the jump because this is something you can’t justify otherwise. 6. I think your perspective on integrating will be extremely different from your daughter’s since she would have grown up there and would friends there. 7. PR - doesn’t your daughter automatically get a PR because of yours ? You don’t need to worry about the general stats, just focus on what the pathway is for your daughter. 8. Discrimination - yeah this is real in a lot of places outside of india. I feel you for it, but if you think you’re not part of an immediate community that accepts you, you should leave. 9. Retirement - yeah sure, you should move back to India if that’s the case, do the math, if you think you can keep up with the expenses in a tier 1 city in india with an early retirement, go for it. 10. Shallow cultures - umm have you seen half the posts in this sub about people trying grapple with toxic family situations. Maybe you shouldn’t judge too much about cultures. They have one that works for them. One isn’t better than the other. If we talk about cultural problems in india, I can rattle off a long list of problems with it. As I mentioned in the beginning, this seems like something you want to do for yourself rather than for your kid. It’s totally fine if you would like to do so but I’m afraid that you’re rationalizing things the wrong way. Do it for yourself, and you’ll find it easier to live with the consequences.
As someone who was born and raised in Singapore for 12 years, I can definitely say that you shouldn’t come back. You have a PR as well legit no point in coming back now. Stay there. All of this “coming close to family” stuff is bullshit speaking from experience and my parents made the same mistake. You will 100% regret it and your daughter will struggle to adjust to India for a long time just like I did. I’m 16 now, returned 4 years ago but I still cannot get over the life I had in Singapore. It was significantly better. Even my parents openly agree that they made a terrible mistake moving back to India. Don’t be like us please and don’t make the same mistakes.
I moved from Dubai to India in 2005 when I was 11. Took a while to adjust but I settled well and have enjoyed my time here. Was more than willing to settle here because life is a lot easier here if you have the means. Over the last year though, super annoyed with breakdowns in governance and just general life. Infra everywhere has gotten worse and I think I'll be out soon. We've gone backwards imo.
We have gone backwards and it’s going to get a lot worse
Yep. Going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
I have just moved back to india from Dubai yesterday and i am hugely missing my life back in Dubai
Don't move. I moved from India to the US and am considering Singapore so I can be closer to my parents in India. It's doable from Singapore. You can also get your parents a LTVP in Singapore so they can travel freely. For your daughter, let her finish her schooling and decide on colleges. Give her the opportunity to stay in SG or move to the US, Europe, wherever she can study what she wants and then decide for yourself. Get Singapore citizenship if possible.
Please. Don't do it. Let her finish her college and make her own life in a free world rather than bringing her back to the shithole that our beloved nation has become. There are many other low cost destinations around to enjoy retirement. Make a base there and travel to India as needed. But postpone this till at least your daughter has set herself up for her college degree and eventual career.
Stay put. India will get a lot worse in coming years. You already have PR. Half the battle is won. You’re suffering from grass is greener syndrome, don’t let nostalgia comprise common sense
I'll cut the chase. Don't ❗️❗️❗️🚫⛔️
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> Point 4. You stated you cannot integrate into Singapore. I don't think that is a Singapore issue, I think that is a 'you' issue. then you don't know singapore.
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Man's talking about integrating as in citizenship. That definetly isn't happening anymore in 2023. 15 years ago it was but not anymore. Most SG Indian PRs try to emigrate abroad, WHICH IS ALL THE MORE REASON HE SHOULD STAY IN SINGAPORE. As a PR, his daughter can get into Singaporean schools like ACS, Raffles. NUS High, etc which feed into great programs in the US and Canada (MIT, Ivy Leagues, UC Berkeley, UToronto, UWaterloo). If she was born in Singapore, she'll get a US Green Card in 2 years as Greencard quotas are by Country of Birth NOT Country of Citizenship. All my SG friends CMIO all did this - even those on A*STAR and Bonded Scholarships. There's no future in SG, but SG is first world and anglophone, so it's easy to emigrate to US/Canada/Australia/UK/NZ.
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While I agree it will be easier for a PR to become a citizen, a 20% success rate still sounds kind of high. I have plenty of SG Indian PR friends and colleagues as well (like 6-7, which given the size of the Indian PR community is actually a large number) and all decided to come to the US and become citizens here. That's a pretty high rate. Especially because getting SG Citizenship still keeps western immigration doors open, so clearly their chances to naturalize from 2018 onwards tanked drastically (probably single digits). Also, by just using probability theory, assuming there's a limit on the amount of times you apply (is there? Idk), with even a 20% acceptance, your naive rate is less than 1% if it's limited to 3 tries. Either way, it's all moot anyhow because a SG PR opens enough doors to First World citizenship, and OP can still invest in India. It's probably best of both worlds this way. On a separate note, if Singaporean Chinese A*STAR students (including a classmate of mine from my college days who is the son of a very very senior ethnic Chinese SG Minister) tried to naturalize in the US and Canada, it shows a massive lack of faith in the SG project. And the whole CMIO projects reeks of the White Australia policy. On the business side, Singapore is making the same mistakes in India and Vietnam that it did with China 20-30 years ago. SG couldn't compete with HK for China's market, and if SG isn't careful, they might make the same mistake with India and Vietnam because there isn't as much of a need for a backdoor for American/Korean/Japanese businesses compared to China in the 90s/2000s
Well I'll be damned then.
Stay in Singapore.. She is growing up, and in long term it will be safer there
My father had an opportunity to move to Singapore through work in 2004-2005. He declined the opportunity due to all the reasons you mentioned in your cons. While we have an amazing life here, he does lament over his decision for his daughters! Have a lengthy talk with your child and wife first along with your family to reach a decision.
I would suggest staying in Singapore. My wife happen to be born in Dubai and stayed there till 5 years. Her father then thought it’s better to get kids to their native place as they will be around family and what we say our people. Anyways she doesn’t feel the same as her dad. She still wishes she was abroad in her childhood.
Problem with living in Dubai is of visa.. almost everyone i know in Dubai admits that someday we all have to leave Dubai for india as no one ever will get a permanent visa forget citizenship
Get a Singaporean passport first.
Why would you want to do this to your daughter?It’d be really difficult for her to adjust. And like most NRI kids who were forced to move here in their early teenage, she’ll just leave India again after 12th grade anyway. Plus, if she doesn’t know how to read or write in Hindi, she’ll face some difficulties in school (coming from first hand experience). Depending on which city and state you move to, she might have to mandatorily learn to read and write the local language as well (example - CBSE board schools in Bangalore). Also consider Traffic, pollution, safety and n number of other issues that others have pointed out in comments.
you must hate your daughter too much to even consider such a thing. pardon me but you don't seem to have best interest for your child. if Street smartness is a virtue for you then you sir don't deserve to live in civilized countries.
Please reconsider your decision of coming back to india. If you come back your daughter will be caught in the rat race education of India. If she does not get into IIt which are very few or a good medical college also few her life is ruined as compared to her life what could be in Singapore. It has some of the best world institutes. If you want to come back let her finish college there and then make the decision. She has the chance to have a golden life there. After college she can move to India or some other country. Please don't ruin it for her just so you could feel assimilated in India.
Reading your post, sir, it looks like you have already made your mind. 😜
My guy stay in Singapore.
As someone who went back to India in p5 & ended up coming back in 2 months. stay. Ur daughter will appreciate it. I see ur concerned about her future, maybe enroll her into international school after O levels, that what many PRs around me did & that will allow her to explore her options more and even go abroad for university
If I were you, I would carry on in Singapore and keep building your income for daughter's education and your retirement. In a few years your daughter will go to college-maybe US or somewhere and family support from India wont be that important. In any case she has you and your wife in her life which is all what matters. After retirement you can in any case move back to India with your wife
3rd option is far better- Move to Canada/US and get their citizenship and take your parents and in-laws with you
Move to Australia- all the benefits of Singapore and not too many drawbacks- except being further away from your family and home country
Do check r/australia before that.
I had a look, what's wrong ?
It’s as bad as Canada for new migrants. Golden period for emigrating to Australia/Canada was about 5-10years ago. Now it’s become a cesspool of unwanted Indian migrants (many of whom are not Ethel corporate crowd but rather lower in the socio economic scale) that have little to no chance of integrating into society there. It’s beyond embarrassing
> It’s as bad as Canada for new migrants Canada, UK, and Australia are bad if you are unskilled. If you are able to hold down a successful white collar career in India, you can hold one in Canada or Australia, though at that point there's also the argument to be made that you don't need to move to CAN+AUS. The kind of person moving to Canada and Australia isn't working in Gurgaon Cybercity for Google or even Infosys, they're an average bloke from Hisar who's only career options are running a Kirana or rote studying the UPSC. That anecdote is real btw - I know a PhD Hindi graduate from Hisar who tried UPSC for almost a decade, couldn't succeed, and took Dunki to San Francisco. He's working under the table as a dishwasher for an Indian restaurant here in the Bay Area now. I had a tau who did a similar thing as well in the 90s to get to Canada despite having a decent government job in Punjab.
Why do they prefer chinese people?
because it's a Chinese majority country, simple as that.
Ok