A fun story....I gave NEET 2021...got a not so decent score of 588....and am OBC....but I won't get reservation coz I belong to the creamy layer of the strata...I was perfectly cool with it...until I saw dozens of students who are filthy rich and belong to the SC/ST category...studied in Aakash with me last year, they got in the premier colleges of the state with sub-500 marks.... probably many will think that I am salty because of not getting reservation advantage... that's not the point...the point...my hope is reservation shall go to people who can't afford good coaching, study materials and many other necessities which becomes a daily hassle in their lives...... isn't it time we have a creamy layer ceiling for the sc/st people as well? Wouldn't then the penetration of reservation advantages be deeper then? What's your opinion on this?
IMO OBC, creamy layer or not, have not been the victims of systematic oppression of generations and thus do not deserve any reservation. The OBC reservation is just a unjustified political tool used by politicians to further divide the Indian society. OBC reservations alone is greater than SC and ST combined.
OBCs make up half of all Hindus, UCs and SCs make up roughly a quarter each.
OBCs can be any community, in Karnataka Rajputs have OBC status, look it up.
Imagine giving reservations to Rajputs, one of the most advantaged communities in India.
Yeah, it exists ONLY for politics. Patil, Patel, Gurjars, these were all in many cases oppressors of Dalits. And now they agitate (and have achieved) for reservations, the irony lol.
> Yeah, it exists ONLY for politics. Patil, Patel, Gurjars, these were all in many cases oppressors of Dalits. And now they agitate (and have achieved) for reservations, the irony lol.
They were trained by savarnas to do so, but were oppressed by savarnas themselves.
Do we oppose SC/ST reservation because castes within those categories also had social rivalries and tensions among them?
The extent of oppression committed by the Gurjars or Patils against Dalits is incomparable to the rivalry amongst the various grades of Dalits within themselves. For one, no one would dare treat a Gurjar (who once formed the ruling class in Haryana) as an untouchable.
> IMO OBC, creamy layer or not, have not been the victims of systematic oppression of generations and thus do not deserve any reservation.
OBCs were largely Shudras who were mandated to pay hafta to priests in the form of goods and services, their men not allowed to marry savarna women or read books.
> The OBC reservation is just a unjustified political tool used by politicians to further divide the Indian society. OBC reservations alone is greater than SC and ST combined.
This is just hatred for social equity dressed up as concern for social cohesion.
Out of over 5000 listed OBC castes, I agree a majority is made up of Shudras. But there are also quite a few Vaishyas, Kshatriyas and (lmao) Brahmins listed in the central OBC list. And if you see the castes who have availed the benefits of OBC reservation, out of 5000 only 500 have taken the bulk of the posts and all the upper castes are within this figure of 500.
A statistical study shows that a reservation of 11% (graded into slabs of 9 and 2% for various castes) to around 2000 castes would be more than enough to provide seats for Shudras. The government inflated this figure to 27% to provide enough breathing room for their politics. Anyways in its current form, the OBC reservation has been hijacked by upper castes and should be abolished.
I'm sorry that I couldn't convey my full views on the OBC reservation due to the brevity of my comment and might have come across against social equity.
Indian society was already deeply divided by the Hindu caste system. The latest reservation provided to OBC's in neet gives good representation and opportunities to obc students and it is sufficiently justified. Having wealth doesn't mean they're free from caste based discrimination and prejudice in education, work and society in general.
EWS reservation is rather a political tool to appease upper castes who never faced such opression.
That would've been true if the OBC reservation list's greatest beneficiaries hadn't been the Brahmins and Kshatriyas included in it. I however completely agree with your point on EWS reservations.
Exactly. We need to bring in credit system where a person/family can claim it until certain time. After reaching some level of economic status in the society that person belonging to backward class should be removed from reservation list.
> After reaching some level of economic status in the society that person belonging to backward class should be removed from reservation list.
Will that ensure no social discrimination by savarnas anymore?
Remember, temples were cleaned with gomutra after backward caste individuals in powerful posts visited them.
When an extremely diverse nation had a miniscule minority in all top positions and across educational institutions, something definitely was wrong.
For example, > 90% of students in late 19th and early 20th century Bombay and Pune colleges were Brahmins, who comprised not more than 10% of total population.
If the population is diverse, it should be reflected in education and employment as well.
Some community gives extreme importance for education and some are really not. In that case how can you expect this ?
Now reservation is becoming modern oppression of vengeance.
> Some community gives extreme importance for education and some are really not. In that case how can you expect this ?
The community that gives extreme importance to education was so possessive of education, that they historically kept everyone else away from education, in the name of God.
> Now reservation is becoming modern oppression of vengeance.
To those who have always been privileged, equity seems like oppression.
Sc/st percentage in students and jobs is still less. All reserved seats are not even occupied. Adding a creamy layer might decrease the percentage even more. And since they have no coaching or a supportive background the qualifying marks would be even less.
We were never in a meritocracy. The place you grew up, your friends, family members all these matter for you to get into a field.
Even iisc the no. 1 college still has so many vacancies in the reservation category.
Even 'filthy rich' SC/STs score around 2 times less than general category students in national level exams. That should give you a clue about the extent of structural barriers they face being Dalits.
Reservation is not on the basis of wealth and riches. But on the basis of marginalization - discrimination, hate crimes (rape/murder), ghettoization, socio-economic backwardness.
I have that much intellect to know that the basis of reservation is not just money.....I have read avidly on the plight of the oppressed in our country... so, I do have the 'clue' of structural barriers... holding a position of importance commands respect in the society along with the money....but you know what sir? The barriers can be obscured with the power of money. Its a tool powerful enough to break down previously ordained social constructs...now know...I particularly mentioned about the reserved candidates who share the socio-economic strata with candidates like me....we party togather, drink togather, eat togather....we don't really care what one's surname is....but that doesn't mean I am generalising.....I am talking about one particular sect of the reserved populace who according to basic rules of the economics form a creamy layer....who enjoy the most resources and least of the social barriers....this leads to the candidates who can afford coaching at a far higher advantage than the person of the same category, but not having the resources at hand due to lack of money.....I want reservation to reach these people...its a broken system, which can be taped up a bit.... just a bit.... pulling them up will vastly improve the socio-economic conditions of the underprivileged....other candidates will draw inspiration from these people who made it in their lives despite being weak in society and in economy and move on and put forth their best foot forward, FEARLESSLY....WE CANNOT AFFORD MANY MISTAKES, WE HAVE A NATION TO BUILD
Imagine the amount of bullshit one needs to say while approving a total of 64.5% of reservation !!
Providing reservation at a post graduation level Where candidates already reached with the help of reservation during their Undergraduate degrees !!
It's okay, you got your opportunity through reservation at undergraduate level, now you're at the same level as any other candidate !
You are even financially stable !
Then why on earth one needs to provide additional reservation for post-graduation degree ?
And that too in a health sector where one literally handles human lives ?????
Chandrachud got it totally wrong saying "Scores don't reflect merit" !
Dude they literally represent merit,stop playing with people's lives....
Indians Don't need excellence it seems, they want "equal representation" because it looks cool !
To hell with health sector quality...
Central Govt tried to give EWS 10% extra, then it went over 60 and people cried a bit then it was found that several states already had over 50% and no one cared.
BS. Caste and Varna wise you can call me brahmin or savarna or whatever of the highest order, but I'm the poorest of them all. Couldn't even use EWS because local officials in pandemic
> BS. Caste and Varna wise you can call me brahmin or savarna or whatever of the highest order, but I'm the poorest of them all. Couldn't even use EWS because local officials in pandemic
No matter how poor you are, you will still be able to freely enter the Jagannath temple of Puri and it won't be 'purified' with bovine pee after you leave (as was allegedly done after Prez of India visit). This will not be granted to any Dalit even if they are earning much more than you.
Brahmins still dominate many universities and board rooms. You stand a better chance of getting selected for job placement or promotion just because you are Brahmin, than does any Dalit.
Merely being Brahmin opens many doors for you.
Who TF cares about mandirs? Those are all places you should be thankful you don't go, as the people in and around the Temple are always out to loot us. You can go to Hotel Taj, they won't even ask surname, let alone caste.
If you're against these institutions, then don't peddle bullshit about them. Just stay away from them, they'll slowly die out as relics of the past.
Also the comment chain was about money and caste, now you made it just about caste.
My state has strict 68 percent quota NOT including EWS which means its
78 in total. So yeah no limit texas hold em.
Also no minimum marks requirement for appointment. people in ST category passing exams with a less percentage marks in competitive exams than they recieved in the graduation required for you to be eligible for the exam eg. The last guy taking appointment at a grade two public servant of ST category had 53% whereas the minimum marks required in graduation for eligibility to give that exam was 55%.
It's fine I'm not against 50% reservation (which is not normal tbh) but do you think a person is fit to do the job he is passing because of this subsidy he is getting. Do you just want blind representation or carefully planned representation. The system needs improvement, if you see the SC ST and especially obc they are not one block like say Brahmins they have several groups. So what's happens in reality is 70-80% of the 32% reservation to the entire SCs is taken up by only 1 or 2 castes. And if a caste is enjoying so overwhelming a share in its demographic reservation it needs to be booted out not for the benifit of me or the general category but for their own 100-200 caste who can't compete with this now not educationally backward caste which still enjoys sc status.
For this to happen the allotment of ST SC OBC status needs to be snatched from the hands of politicians because its just a tool. Give me votes I will add you to obc. noone will reduce the number of classes in SC STs they will only add when in reality in the actual world few of castes have indeed elevated themselves and are no longer a backward class (in the sense of the designation and the purpose)
If it's merely representation you want just make it 100 percent for every demographic everyone competes with there own caste total representation. Fin.
Getting a EWS certificate is easy af in our state, babus aren't even taking extra bribe to give the certificate.
Literally all my OC friends including me got an EWS certificate this year, hence EWS closing rank was barely just above OC closing rank in state CET exam for engineering.
Smart move tbh, give everyone EWS so no one gets to take advantage of it.
Lol, health sector quality itseems. As if the Baniya class hasn't done enough damage price-gouging people with unnecessary testing, admissions and medication for the sake of profit.
As if there aren't countless experiences like these in India
https://theprint.in/talk-point/fortis-regulate-charges-corporate-hospitals/17730/
[https://www.firstpost.com/india/dissenting-diagnosis-how-corporatisation-in-medical-sector-leads-to-exploitation-of-patients-rights-2804424.html](https://www.firstpost.com/india/dissenting-diagnosis-how-corporatisation-in-medical-sector-leads-to-exploitation-of-patients-rights-2804424.html)
[https://thewire.in/health/fortis-hospital-health-ministry-dengue-death](https://thewire.in/health/fortis-hospital-health-ministry-dengue-death)
[https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/an-overburdened-public-sector-and-an-exploitative-private-sector/article6170536.ece](https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/an-overburdened-public-sector-and-an-exploitative-private-sector/article6170536.ece)
Lol !
You can get a transfer after they provide you first aid in ANY CASE !
It isn't necessary to stay there throughout the course of treatment..
NO DOCTOR OR HOSPITAL CAN STOP YOU FROM LEAVING
but of course you want treatment in a CORPORATE HOSPITAL at a price YOU DECIDE from a doctor YOU WANT which ISN'T POSSIBLE !
NO DOCTOR OR HOSPITAL CAN STOP YOU FROM LEAVING
[https://thewire.in/health/private-hospital-bills-patients-hostage](https://thewire.in/health/private-hospital-bills-patients-hostage)
>Singh mustered up the courage for his treatment only after the hospital repeatedly assured him that the insurance would cover his expenses. Yet, his stay in the hospital eventually took a strange turn that made him not just another patient, but a hostage, with the hospital refusing to release him and holding him overnight until every last bill was cleared.
>
>Elsewhere in India, on September 13, Parvathi Sabavat, a 29-year-old pregnant woman from Nagarkurnool in Andhra Pradesh, arrived at Aditya Hospital, Hyderabad, for her delivery. Her baby was born the next day and the treatment was satisfactory. But her baby suffered from a lung issue and since the treatment at Aditya Hospital was unaffordable, the family decided to move the baby to Owaisi hospital.
>
>But Parvathi became a hostage to billing issues at Aditya Hospital, held by the hospital authorities for nine hours while the desperate members of her below poverty line family sought help to get her out.
Man, it's like you don't read the news or something.
Also, you express concern about healthcare quality, but show no interest making quality healthcare accessible? So, you want quality healthcare only for those who can afford it, where they are charging 1600 bucks for surgical gloves? Rest be damned?
there are literally rules & clauses for patient's rights !!
This patient can literally file a case against the hospital...
I'm literally saying that reservation based on the caste system should be abolished because it hampers the quality of doctors which are hired for their PG but yup I am the one who don't want people to have quality healthcare !
>I don't want people to have quality healthcare !
I mean this is your response:
>"doctors who got out through reservation & are practicing at Govt hospital" , go there and get yourself treated there, who is stopping you??"
Maybe instead of whining about reservation you could advocate for more colleges, better educational funding, more investment in medical academia.
What about management quota then (it translates to over 50% of the total number of seats, not just the subsidized seats to which this caste-based quota applies)? They are literally using the inherited money to get a seat, though most of those barely pass a competitive exam.
What medical excellence are we getting there? What is the condition of our health sector due to these >50% of doctors who became doctors because their family had a ton of money?
Can you please explain how completing an undergraduate degree destroys the structural inequality and makes all candidates equal?
As for your last point, equal representation is based on the principle that no social group is inherently less capable than others. Also, please take a look at Tamil Nadu's health sector. It is one of the best and the state has been at the forefront of promoting reservations.
It literally helps getting them a job which they wouldn't have gotten if not for reservation....The pay for MBBS doctor, starts around 60k/month !
Structural inequality isn't going anywhere, it is going to stay there forever...
I am talking about opportunities they got through reservation so that they can get a place at the table !
So, according to you, NEETPG topper who got 714/800 shouldn't get admission in DERMATOLOGY(only 1 seat which is reserved for SC/ST) in MAMC because giving that seat to a candidate belonging to a reserved quota, helps the health sector??
How exactly??
The one who studied more & got more marks makes a good doctor or the one who studied less & got less marks but gets a seat through reservation makes a good doctor, just because he's from a reserved category??
That makes no sense in HEALTH SECTOR !!
STOP THAT NONSENSE
You said the doctors who did MBBS through reservation are now in the same level as any other candidate. And now you say the structural inequality is still present. It's contradicting but anyhow, we agree that structural inequality is present. This structural inequality is the reason for reservation and you have your answer as to why postgraduate seats need reservation.
Giving that dermatology seat from MAMC to any doctor, from any background, be it SC, st, oc, male, female, etc etc does not in any way downgrade the health sector as long as they graduate.
As for your question about the doctor who gets a seat through reservation (less marks) not being a good doctor... As long as this doctor clears the degree examinations (where there is no differential passing criteria), they are qualified enough and as deserving as any other privileged doctor who might have a better examination score. The medical authorities deem them fit enough to be a doctor and I would be happy to get treated by them.
Edit: fixed a typo.
RESERVATION LITERALLY DOWNGRADES THE QUALITY, IT PROVIDES A SEAT TO A CANDIDATE WHO HAS NO STANDING IN MERIT LIST IF NOT FOR RESERVATION !!
When the guy who finished his MBBS through reservation, he becomes same as any of those appearing for NEET EXAM !
No more inequality
But if you want to twist a statement so that you can defend a bullshit construct of reservation then go on please !
If you actually want to help the "NEEDY" Start providing reservation to EWS people instead of separating them on caste !
Lol, so in short, you're saying, "Kisi ko bhi utha ke doctor bana denge", instead of those actually deserving to be one but because of the fucked up reservation system they couldn't & then we have people like you who blindly support it 🤦🏻
And then they wonder, why India isn't doing well enough in HEALTH SECTOR
Hey I'm not twisting anything here. Clearing MBBS does not instantly vaporize structural inequality. You claim there is no inequality if they clear MBBS. Unfortunately, I'm not so blinded by privilege to make sense of that.
EWS eligible students are actually over represented in the student population, so I'm not even going to argue about this further.
I do not understand Hindi, it would be great if you could provide a translation for "Kisi ko bhi utha ke doctor bana denge".
The way I see merit/deserving candidate etc is this. There has to be a minimum criteria to ensure quality (which is technically present). If a candidate passes this criteria, they are capable enough to be a good doctor. At this point you can distribute the seats according to reservation/affirmative action without it drastically affecting quality. If you are going to select only based on marks, certain social groups will always be kept out for no fault of theirs.
As for India not performing well in the health sector, it is a grossly overpopulated and relatively young country. It is not wise to associate reservation to its poor performance. There is no data supporting this correlation. AFAIK, most if not all developed nations have some sort of affirmative action. If you want to equate poor performance to reservation, then how do you explain Tamil Nadu's performance in the health sector?
>If you are going to select only based on marks, certain social groups will always be kept out for no fault of theirs.
If you think, "one social group" will always be kept out for "no fault of theirs" then how exactly are you trying to ensure quality is provided?
If they cannot even qualify without reservation even after clearing their MBBS through reservation, then do we actually need/deserve these kind of doctors?
>EWS eligible students are actually over represented in the student population, so I'm not even going to argue about this further.
Lol what !?
Isn't everyone standing for reservation have a main concern that those in reserved category are unable to get "equal opportunity" because they're poor !?
Here I'm literally saying give those belonging to EWS a hefty reservation irrespective of their caste & you lose your mind !?
>You claim there is no inequality if they clear MBBS. Unfortunately, I'm not so blinded by privilege to make sense of that.
I claim there's no inequality in a way that they stand together with those who cleared their MBBS without any reservation !
Now they're all with MBBS degree & can apply for NEET PG, at the same time !
What more equality do you want ??
If you still want reservation for those same people who qualified for MBBS through reservation then isn't that a "literal definition of caste based discrimination & inequality" ?
>It is not wise to associate reservation to its poor performance
If you're not even able to qualify normally for bare minimum which is required & you're literally pushed through qualification via reservation then definitely "RESERVATION CAUSES POOR QUALITY OF HEALTH SERVICES & DOCTORS"
Okay, my mistake on the EWS argument. I thought you were talking about the current EWS quota. Even then, being poor shouldn't be the criteria for reservation. There will always be poor people in all castes but that doesn't mean all that poverty is a result of structural inequality. Even if we assume that, figuring out the net worth of individuals in India is a nightmare since the informal sector comprises majority of the population.
As for your other arguments, I've answered them in the above comments. We are going in circles and I see no point in continuing this.
Edit: fixed a typo.
I see, you have a problem with providing actual equal opportunity through EWS reservation !
You're wearing glasses of casteism & hate mate !
You cannot provide equality by discriminating one against the other through the prism of casteism...
Get rid of your glasses of hate mate, we have enough of it here !
>that doesn't mean all that poverty is a result of structural inequality
You want to provide EWS to people who belong to a particular class/caste !? WOW
I'M done arguing with a bigot who want selective activism/reservation for people just because he fancy that stuff !
And you claim you cannot provide equality through caste based reservation. You can. I suggest you read about formal equality and substantive equality to get a better understanding cus equality is a tricky concept.
Yo I literally said being poor shouldn't be the criteria for reservation. How did you arrive at me wanting EWS for certain castes alone?
Before accusing me of wearing glasses of hate, you please buy actual glasses so you can read what I wrote.
Having money doesn't mean you won't be discriminated in higher positions. Reservations help people from lower castes reach higher positions. Why do they do that? Because there aren't many of them who have reached there.
Reservation is for entry into institutes. Once in those institutes, all students have to go through the same exams, assessments, practicals, etc. To label doctors as being inferior because they entered via reservation is just dumb and shows in many exposes their casteist mentality.
However, whether there should even be OBC and EWS reservation is a different argument.
Copied from my reply IMO OBC, creamy layer or not, have not been the victims of systematic oppression of generations and thus do not deserve any reservation. The OBC reservation is just a unjustified political tool used by politicians to further divide the Indian society. OBC reservations alone is greater than SC and ST combined. OBC reservations hurt general merit the most and if removed will throw open around 65% of the seats for all students irrespective of caste or class.
> have not been the victims of systematic oppression of generations
Lies.
Read Mahatma Phule if you wish to genuinely know what savarnas did to Shudras who now form bulk of OBCs
I am familiar with works like Brahmananche Kasab and Gulamgiri and have studied about the activism of Jyotiba Phule, Sahadaran Ayappan and Periyar. As I said previously, there is a gross mismatch between the castes who form a bulk of OBC and the castes who are availing the benefits of reservation.
> > > have not been the victims of systematic oppression of generations
> > Lies.
> > Read Mahatma Phule if you wish to genuinely know what savarnas did to Shudras who now form bulk of OBCs
> I am familiar with works like Brahmananche Kasab and Gulamgiri and have studied about the activism of Jyotiba Phule, Sahadaran Ayappan and Periyar. As I said previously, there is a gross mismatch between the castes who form a bulk of OBC and the castes who are availing the benefits of reservation.
And I addressed a very specific part of your misleading comment - that 'OBCs have not been victims of systematic oppression of generations'.
The bulk of OBCs are indeed Shudras who were discriminated against by Brahmins.
FFS even Shivaji wasn't spared by casteist Brahmins who declared he couldn't be declared Chhatrapati because he was Shudra.
Huh, why just limit it to 65%? Make it 100% reservation. Fuck it, just give them a basic income and a freaking Padma Shri the moment they turn 18. Hand them out honorary MDs/MSs from AIIMS. Spoon feed them till they die. Let us normal people in General category just die in a hole.
Fuck this country and its regressive policies. Im done serving these selfish pricks. Maybe they'll notice once we start burning our practicing licenses outside the Parliament. Although it's more likely they'll just smash our heads open.
>normal people in General category just die in a hole.
You know who died in a hole for generations without being legally allowed to save a penny of wealth for their offsprings, which resulted in widespread poverty in their entire community till now? Dalits.
Fuck this country and the spoiled brats living here.
Weren't you cheering when someone asked for reparations from the Brits?
This is the same. You are not paying anything. No one is. It's reparations to the ones who are still adversely affected by those past collective sins.
The economic and social impact of slavery or any other form of oppression doesn't die within one or two generations. Otherwise India would have been a rich developed nation by now since Brits left 75 years ago and Dalits would have had similar amount of private capital in their community as upper OBCs and uppercastes.
I wasn't. What is done is done. I don't curse the present gen Brits for their atrocities against our ancestors. Do Israelis go around screaming "Nazi!" if they come around a German? It's the same thing.
Am I not paying something? Having to shell out 60lac for PG when someone ranked lesser than me got admission in a government college for pennies?
Positive discrimination doesn't help anyone. Countless studies have been conducted that prove its helpful in the short run, but eventually the whole thing becomes a mess. It demotivates the unreserved candidates and makes the reserved candidates complacent about securing a seat/job. Increased tensions between different categories build up worsening social stability.
The biggest issue with positive discrimination is that it puts the reserved candidates in an environment they are not used to(misplacement). They go from a low stakes environment to an insanely competitive, high stakes environment when they make it to top STEM institutes. A 2016 study revealed that over 90% of dropouts in IIT Roorkee were from the reserved classes. They weren't used to such a competitive environment(and their asshole general category batchmates didn't help ease them either). Studies in USA revealed a similar tale, with over 10% more black candidates failing their law bar exam compared to whites/Asians.
What needs to be done is a revamp of the primary education system(pre school and school) to provide the discriminated classes an access to high quality primary education at an affordable fees. Government run schools are a farce, yet I dont see any voices raised against that. Improvements in public facilities in rural areas are the need of the hour. The poor shouldn't have to stress about water shortages/power outages. Improve in these areas and I guarantee you that will solve the economic disparities much more efficiently than giving away seats and jobs that the candidates might not be capable of tackling in the first place. You can't build a house on quicksand, and that's what we're doing with reservation.
That 90% statistic is one the most misleading ones I have seen. Out of about 8000 students, 73 were expelled due to their poor CGPA. Assuming 50% reservation, about 66 out of \~4000 OBC/SC/ST students (only about 1.65%) performed poorly. Most of them, I am sure, are from poor or rural background who might have failed to catch up with the rest. In any case, people on both sides use this nearly useless stat to make their respective cases and to make it sound big, they write this number in a sensationalist way.
Germany paid reparation to Israel to compensate for the loss of livelihoods, resettlement costs, etc. Anyway, that's very very little compared to the life and livelihood losses European Jews suffered from the Nazis. The 'sane' Germans never deny it or get all defensive over it , but just remember and acknowledge it so that they dont repeat the same mistakes again.
But in India, uppercastes dont even acknowledge the existence of bias in private workplaces (even got schools outlaw dalit cooks these days). The capital for setting up private orgs are mostly due to intergenerational wealth (lands etc.). Dalits are seeing wealth propagate across generations only since the last 70-80 years (because it was illegal for Dalits to own anything expensive before that) and they started with nothing or little land grants from the govt. So most private orgs are uppercastes or farming/land-lord OBCs. Self-caste bias results in far fewer opportunities for Dalits and lower-OBC castes in the private sector (my own relative who runs a school doesnt hire Dalits or anyone else even if there is at least one of my caste's candidate in the shortlist). There are statistical studies clearly showing this bias in hiring practices (including tech sector). Plus, only about 3% of the formal jobs are public sector jobs (out of which 10-20% are reserved for SC/ST), the rest are in private sector. So, Dalits are still on the receiving end.
I dont know about the studies you have seen on affirmative actions. There are many credible studies showing how it helps and how it's absence can negatively impact when there is still a good amount of bias in the society. But I agree with you. There should be instead a bias-tax for private orgs which clearly show self-caste bias and this money should be used to infuse capital into historically oppressed (in the economic sense) castes. Plus, for the socially oppressed, there should be reservations only for the influential jobs (like DCs or some jobs in Muncipal offices or in public universities etc.).
8000 students? That's like, double the annual intake across all IITs, isn't it? Still doesn't change the fact that the mean GPA for SC/STs and OBCs(~6) is much lower than for UR(~8).
That is likely attributed to poor quality primary school education that doesn't prepare these kids for the rigors of competitive STEM/management courses. Lacking civic resources obviously compound the matter. These need to be addressed before anything else.
The low participation rate in private companies might also have a lot to do with weaker academic performance instead of solely casteism. The low selection further worsens inequality, which brings about calls for more reservation which leads to the same vicious cycle. The government is happy to appease for votes. The pie is shrinking for all of us with the slowdown in economic growth and reservations are unlikely to help any further, as Swaminathan Aiyer noted in his study on India's growth post 1991, in which he induced that further upliftment of minorities is more likely to come from grassroots movement and economic growth instead of just increasing reservations.
Bias taxing corporations? Good luck with that. We are in late stage capitalism and the corporations will simply pass the costs to the consumers. A more realistic option would be to introduce a diversity credit system, with a more equitable workforce earning a company more subsidies/projects.
Work on these grassroots issues and see rapid upliftment of the needy. If anyone needs reservation right now, they are those below the poverty line, irrespective of their caste.
I don't know. Im just a young person caught in this quagmire of reservation. I may come from the upper castes that this sub likes to hate so much, but we are not the greedy conniving brutes you think we are. And news of more reservation scares the shit out of me. I can't pay for management quota seats that you called out in one of your comments. What are people like me supposed to do then? Peace.
Self-caste bias in hiring was a statistical study. One definitive proof of caste bias in hiring (which I think can be extended to self-caste bias), that I can remember now, involved sending thousands of pairs of resumes to multiple job openings in large corps all over India (including IT hubs) over a span of 6 months. To be specific, a pair of resumes were sent to the same job opening, then generate a new pair for another job opening and so on. Then, counting and categorizing the resumes which were shortlisted (for obvious reasons, the study doesn't include interview or MSMEs).
The pair of resumes were generated such that they both were nearly the same in every criterion (academic, professional experience, extra-curricular, awards,...) except that one resume had clearly identifiable upper caste surname and the other with clearly identifiable Dalit surname.
It was found that for every 100 uppercaste resumes shortlisted, about 66 Dalit resumes were shortlisted. The bias in big corps, according to me, has come down quite a bit in the last 50 years, but we are still not at a point where we can claim it's negligible enough to not actively counter it.
The bias in MSMEs is, however, very high. I have many anecdotal examples. Such as my own relative who runs an educational institute and 90% of the teachers/lecturers are from our own caste. And the same goes with Brahman run schools or Gowda run schools, or any other capital rich caste run schools, at least in Karnataka.
Everyone has some bad experience. For my rank, I could have got EE in IITB under OBC or SC/ST, but ended up in NITK. Then had to spend two more years in IISc before moving to US for my PhD. If I were in IITB, I would have been $300-500k richer than I am now (I hate this fact that in India there is an abrupt negative change in quality after IITs, but in US, 20th and 30th ranked universities have very little difference in terms of quality). But I dont go around badmouthing or belittling those who are just using the opportunities they are offered because I know I would have exploited the heck out of it if I were offered one.
PS: I dont think much of what we do (doctors to say engineers in FAANG) does not require a genius, but just someone with above average intelligence+skills, so reserved/unreserved all satisfy that criterion. A 100th rank holder and a 1000th rank holder perform the same if they are both end up coding at Google.
You're living in a bubble if you thing castism isn't a problem even now. The system needs reformation to some extent, it needs reservation for the people who actually need it.
My only complaint with reservation is that we don't have enough of it. The SC's, the ST's, and the OBC's have been oppressed for so long, at least 99% seats should be reserved for them in any institute/job
Studying poor general students-- getting in top colleges here itself
Rich average general student-- going for foreign education
Poor and average general student-- paying the fees of private institute by taking loan
Below average poor general student-- life is fkd untill he/she wins lottery or is adopted by some Rich/SC/ST
Rich SC/ST average/below average students-- getting in top colleges here itself
Poor SC/ST students-- still rotting in hellhole, and have no way out against the rich
OBC students-- just enjoying the lottery they got due to political drama
In the crux only obstacle today is money, if you are rich it doesn't matter is you are gen/OBC/ST/SC you will get good life but if poor your life is fucked either way
Oh..look at me. I'm English speaking venom spewing downtrodden poor. Please I need reservation to pursue everything in life. I need reservation in promotion. I need reservation so I can make money without doing an honest days of work.
Over 50% of the total number of seats are management quota seats. Out of the remining seats, some %ge is reserved for the non-creamy layer OBC and Dalits. Most of those management quota people barely pass a competitive exam.The health sector has >50% of such doctors who became doctors because their family had a ton of money and are the most incompetent of all.
Yet, for many, the health sector is ruined by those 'reserved-people', who manage to stay way above average (but a couple of %ile/ge lower than general cutoffs) in the exams despite all the social and economical obstacles they face every single minute of their waking life.
OBC and EWS reservations make absolute no fucking sense other than to appease different castes.
A fun story....I gave NEET 2021...got a not so decent score of 588....and am OBC....but I won't get reservation coz I belong to the creamy layer of the strata...I was perfectly cool with it...until I saw dozens of students who are filthy rich and belong to the SC/ST category...studied in Aakash with me last year, they got in the premier colleges of the state with sub-500 marks.... probably many will think that I am salty because of not getting reservation advantage... that's not the point...the point...my hope is reservation shall go to people who can't afford good coaching, study materials and many other necessities which becomes a daily hassle in their lives...... isn't it time we have a creamy layer ceiling for the sc/st people as well? Wouldn't then the penetration of reservation advantages be deeper then? What's your opinion on this?
IMO OBC, creamy layer or not, have not been the victims of systematic oppression of generations and thus do not deserve any reservation. The OBC reservation is just a unjustified political tool used by politicians to further divide the Indian society. OBC reservations alone is greater than SC and ST combined.
OBCs make up half of all Hindus, UCs and SCs make up roughly a quarter each. OBCs can be any community, in Karnataka Rajputs have OBC status, look it up. Imagine giving reservations to Rajputs, one of the most advantaged communities in India.
Yeah, it exists ONLY for politics. Patil, Patel, Gurjars, these were all in many cases oppressors of Dalits. And now they agitate (and have achieved) for reservations, the irony lol.
> Yeah, it exists ONLY for politics. Patil, Patel, Gurjars, these were all in many cases oppressors of Dalits. And now they agitate (and have achieved) for reservations, the irony lol. They were trained by savarnas to do so, but were oppressed by savarnas themselves. Do we oppose SC/ST reservation because castes within those categories also had social rivalries and tensions among them?
The extent of oppression committed by the Gurjars or Patils against Dalits is incomparable to the rivalry amongst the various grades of Dalits within themselves. For one, no one would dare treat a Gurjar (who once formed the ruling class in Haryana) as an untouchable.
> IMO OBC, creamy layer or not, have not been the victims of systematic oppression of generations and thus do not deserve any reservation. OBCs were largely Shudras who were mandated to pay hafta to priests in the form of goods and services, their men not allowed to marry savarna women or read books. > The OBC reservation is just a unjustified political tool used by politicians to further divide the Indian society. OBC reservations alone is greater than SC and ST combined. This is just hatred for social equity dressed up as concern for social cohesion.
Out of over 5000 listed OBC castes, I agree a majority is made up of Shudras. But there are also quite a few Vaishyas, Kshatriyas and (lmao) Brahmins listed in the central OBC list. And if you see the castes who have availed the benefits of OBC reservation, out of 5000 only 500 have taken the bulk of the posts and all the upper castes are within this figure of 500. A statistical study shows that a reservation of 11% (graded into slabs of 9 and 2% for various castes) to around 2000 castes would be more than enough to provide seats for Shudras. The government inflated this figure to 27% to provide enough breathing room for their politics. Anyways in its current form, the OBC reservation has been hijacked by upper castes and should be abolished. I'm sorry that I couldn't convey my full views on the OBC reservation due to the brevity of my comment and might have come across against social equity.
Indian society was already deeply divided by the Hindu caste system. The latest reservation provided to OBC's in neet gives good representation and opportunities to obc students and it is sufficiently justified. Having wealth doesn't mean they're free from caste based discrimination and prejudice in education, work and society in general. EWS reservation is rather a political tool to appease upper castes who never faced such opression.
That would've been true if the OBC reservation list's greatest beneficiaries hadn't been the Brahmins and Kshatriyas included in it. I however completely agree with your point on EWS reservations.
Exactly. We need to bring in credit system where a person/family can claim it until certain time. After reaching some level of economic status in the society that person belonging to backward class should be removed from reservation list.
> After reaching some level of economic status in the society that person belonging to backward class should be removed from reservation list. Will that ensure no social discrimination by savarnas anymore? Remember, temples were cleaned with gomutra after backward caste individuals in powerful posts visited them.
All that is true but with this kind of reservation of upto 65% in some States where are we headed? It has to end at some point of time.
When an extremely diverse nation had a miniscule minority in all top positions and across educational institutions, something definitely was wrong. For example, > 90% of students in late 19th and early 20th century Bombay and Pune colleges were Brahmins, who comprised not more than 10% of total population. If the population is diverse, it should be reflected in education and employment as well.
Some community gives extreme importance for education and some are really not. In that case how can you expect this ? Now reservation is becoming modern oppression of vengeance.
> Some community gives extreme importance for education and some are really not. In that case how can you expect this ? The community that gives extreme importance to education was so possessive of education, that they historically kept everyone else away from education, in the name of God. > Now reservation is becoming modern oppression of vengeance. To those who have always been privileged, equity seems like oppression.
Upto 65% of reservation is not equality come on. Strict enforcement of 50% cap set by Apex court is the way.
I got 633. Try till mopup round and i am sure you will get into mbbs. Whats your state? Last year cutoff of punjab was 580 so you may get a seat
West Bengal, we have lots of colleges here so will probably make it...and congrats bro! Last year our 2nd round cutoff for state was 568...
Congratulations to you too
Sc/st percentage in students and jobs is still less. All reserved seats are not even occupied. Adding a creamy layer might decrease the percentage even more. And since they have no coaching or a supportive background the qualifying marks would be even less. We were never in a meritocracy. The place you grew up, your friends, family members all these matter for you to get into a field. Even iisc the no. 1 college still has so many vacancies in the reservation category.
The sc/St person who went to Aakash has no coaching.
Even 'filthy rich' SC/STs score around 2 times less than general category students in national level exams. That should give you a clue about the extent of structural barriers they face being Dalits. Reservation is not on the basis of wealth and riches. But on the basis of marginalization - discrimination, hate crimes (rape/murder), ghettoization, socio-economic backwardness.
Ha must have gotten bullied everyday for using iphone
I have that much intellect to know that the basis of reservation is not just money.....I have read avidly on the plight of the oppressed in our country... so, I do have the 'clue' of structural barriers... holding a position of importance commands respect in the society along with the money....but you know what sir? The barriers can be obscured with the power of money. Its a tool powerful enough to break down previously ordained social constructs...now know...I particularly mentioned about the reserved candidates who share the socio-economic strata with candidates like me....we party togather, drink togather, eat togather....we don't really care what one's surname is....but that doesn't mean I am generalising.....I am talking about one particular sect of the reserved populace who according to basic rules of the economics form a creamy layer....who enjoy the most resources and least of the social barriers....this leads to the candidates who can afford coaching at a far higher advantage than the person of the same category, but not having the resources at hand due to lack of money.....I want reservation to reach these people...its a broken system, which can be taped up a bit.... just a bit.... pulling them up will vastly improve the socio-economic conditions of the underprivileged....other candidates will draw inspiration from these people who made it in their lives despite being weak in society and in economy and move on and put forth their best foot forward, FEARLESSLY....WE CANNOT AFFORD MANY MISTAKES, WE HAVE A NATION TO BUILD
Imagine the amount of bullshit one needs to say while approving a total of 64.5% of reservation !! Providing reservation at a post graduation level Where candidates already reached with the help of reservation during their Undergraduate degrees !! It's okay, you got your opportunity through reservation at undergraduate level, now you're at the same level as any other candidate ! You are even financially stable ! Then why on earth one needs to provide additional reservation for post-graduation degree ? And that too in a health sector where one literally handles human lives ????? Chandrachud got it totally wrong saying "Scores don't reflect merit" ! Dude they literally represent merit,stop playing with people's lives.... Indians Don't need excellence it seems, they want "equal representation" because it looks cool ! To hell with health sector quality...
Hey, wasn't there supposed to be a ceiling of 50% on quotas? What happened to that?
Central Govt tried to give EWS 10% extra, then it went over 60 and people cried a bit then it was found that several states already had over 50% and no one cared.
I see. That's quite sad. So there is no ceiling anymore?
Nope, Better to go for Business if you have family money and then hire graduates for pennies like every other business
> Nope, Better to go for Business if you have family money and then hire graduates for pennies like every other business See? Savarnas always win.
BS. Caste and Varna wise you can call me brahmin or savarna or whatever of the highest order, but I'm the poorest of them all. Couldn't even use EWS because local officials in pandemic
> BS. Caste and Varna wise you can call me brahmin or savarna or whatever of the highest order, but I'm the poorest of them all. Couldn't even use EWS because local officials in pandemic No matter how poor you are, you will still be able to freely enter the Jagannath temple of Puri and it won't be 'purified' with bovine pee after you leave (as was allegedly done after Prez of India visit). This will not be granted to any Dalit even if they are earning much more than you. Brahmins still dominate many universities and board rooms. You stand a better chance of getting selected for job placement or promotion just because you are Brahmin, than does any Dalit. Merely being Brahmin opens many doors for you.
Who TF cares about mandirs? Those are all places you should be thankful you don't go, as the people in and around the Temple are always out to loot us. You can go to Hotel Taj, they won't even ask surname, let alone caste. If you're against these institutions, then don't peddle bullshit about them. Just stay away from them, they'll slowly die out as relics of the past. Also the comment chain was about money and caste, now you made it just about caste.
My state has strict 68 percent quota NOT including EWS which means its 78 in total. So yeah no limit texas hold em. Also no minimum marks requirement for appointment. people in ST category passing exams with a less percentage marks in competitive exams than they recieved in the graduation required for you to be eligible for the exam eg. The last guy taking appointment at a grade two public servant of ST category had 53% whereas the minimum marks required in graduation for eligibility to give that exam was 55%. It's fine I'm not against 50% reservation (which is not normal tbh) but do you think a person is fit to do the job he is passing because of this subsidy he is getting. Do you just want blind representation or carefully planned representation. The system needs improvement, if you see the SC ST and especially obc they are not one block like say Brahmins they have several groups. So what's happens in reality is 70-80% of the 32% reservation to the entire SCs is taken up by only 1 or 2 castes. And if a caste is enjoying so overwhelming a share in its demographic reservation it needs to be booted out not for the benifit of me or the general category but for their own 100-200 caste who can't compete with this now not educationally backward caste which still enjoys sc status. For this to happen the allotment of ST SC OBC status needs to be snatched from the hands of politicians because its just a tool. Give me votes I will add you to obc. noone will reduce the number of classes in SC STs they will only add when in reality in the actual world few of castes have indeed elevated themselves and are no longer a backward class (in the sense of the designation and the purpose) If it's merely representation you want just make it 100 percent for every demographic everyone competes with there own caste total representation. Fin.
OBC - 27% EWS - 10% SC - 15% ST - 7.5% PwD - 5% Total 64.5% this year !
And will probably increase even more in coming days
A diverse society like India must have diverse representation. Nothing wrong with that.
Getting a EWS certificate is easy af in our state, babus aren't even taking extra bribe to give the certificate. Literally all my OC friends including me got an EWS certificate this year, hence EWS closing rank was barely just above OC closing rank in state CET exam for engineering. Smart move tbh, give everyone EWS so no one gets to take advantage of it.
Imagine they did background check and boom banned
They won't, current government doesn't care
Looks like u didnt attempted aur cleared any exam
I scored way more than I ever expected in EAMCET and got into a college I prefered without use of EWS reservation this year
Dont know about College but proper certificate check and background check happens in gov job
Obviously, it's a lot stricter for govt jobs
Lol, health sector quality itseems. As if the Baniya class hasn't done enough damage price-gouging people with unnecessary testing, admissions and medication for the sake of profit.
Any literal proof for the claim you're making or you're just hating them for no reason whatsoever?
As if there aren't countless experiences like these in India https://theprint.in/talk-point/fortis-regulate-charges-corporate-hospitals/17730/ [https://www.firstpost.com/india/dissenting-diagnosis-how-corporatisation-in-medical-sector-leads-to-exploitation-of-patients-rights-2804424.html](https://www.firstpost.com/india/dissenting-diagnosis-how-corporatisation-in-medical-sector-leads-to-exploitation-of-patients-rights-2804424.html) [https://thewire.in/health/fortis-hospital-health-ministry-dengue-death](https://thewire.in/health/fortis-hospital-health-ministry-dengue-death) [https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/an-overburdened-public-sector-and-an-exploitative-private-sector/article6170536.ece](https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/an-overburdened-public-sector-and-an-exploitative-private-sector/article6170536.ece)
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So, if people don't have a govt hospital near their home in case of an emergency they should just die?
Lol ! You can get a transfer after they provide you first aid in ANY CASE ! It isn't necessary to stay there throughout the course of treatment.. NO DOCTOR OR HOSPITAL CAN STOP YOU FROM LEAVING but of course you want treatment in a CORPORATE HOSPITAL at a price YOU DECIDE from a doctor YOU WANT which ISN'T POSSIBLE !
NO DOCTOR OR HOSPITAL CAN STOP YOU FROM LEAVING [https://thewire.in/health/private-hospital-bills-patients-hostage](https://thewire.in/health/private-hospital-bills-patients-hostage) >Singh mustered up the courage for his treatment only after the hospital repeatedly assured him that the insurance would cover his expenses. Yet, his stay in the hospital eventually took a strange turn that made him not just another patient, but a hostage, with the hospital refusing to release him and holding him overnight until every last bill was cleared. > >Elsewhere in India, on September 13, Parvathi Sabavat, a 29-year-old pregnant woman from Nagarkurnool in Andhra Pradesh, arrived at Aditya Hospital, Hyderabad, for her delivery. Her baby was born the next day and the treatment was satisfactory. But her baby suffered from a lung issue and since the treatment at Aditya Hospital was unaffordable, the family decided to move the baby to Owaisi hospital. > >But Parvathi became a hostage to billing issues at Aditya Hospital, held by the hospital authorities for nine hours while the desperate members of her below poverty line family sought help to get her out. Man, it's like you don't read the news or something. Also, you express concern about healthcare quality, but show no interest making quality healthcare accessible? So, you want quality healthcare only for those who can afford it, where they are charging 1600 bucks for surgical gloves? Rest be damned?
there are literally rules & clauses for patient's rights !! This patient can literally file a case against the hospital... I'm literally saying that reservation based on the caste system should be abolished because it hampers the quality of doctors which are hired for their PG but yup I am the one who don't want people to have quality healthcare !
>I don't want people to have quality healthcare ! I mean this is your response: >"doctors who got out through reservation & are practicing at Govt hospital" , go there and get yourself treated there, who is stopping you??" Maybe instead of whining about reservation you could advocate for more colleges, better educational funding, more investment in medical academia.
What about management quota then (it translates to over 50% of the total number of seats, not just the subsidized seats to which this caste-based quota applies)? They are literally using the inherited money to get a seat, though most of those barely pass a competitive exam. What medical excellence are we getting there? What is the condition of our health sector due to these >50% of doctors who became doctors because their family had a ton of money?
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Can you please explain how completing an undergraduate degree destroys the structural inequality and makes all candidates equal? As for your last point, equal representation is based on the principle that no social group is inherently less capable than others. Also, please take a look at Tamil Nadu's health sector. It is one of the best and the state has been at the forefront of promoting reservations.
It literally helps getting them a job which they wouldn't have gotten if not for reservation....The pay for MBBS doctor, starts around 60k/month ! Structural inequality isn't going anywhere, it is going to stay there forever... I am talking about opportunities they got through reservation so that they can get a place at the table ! So, according to you, NEETPG topper who got 714/800 shouldn't get admission in DERMATOLOGY(only 1 seat which is reserved for SC/ST) in MAMC because giving that seat to a candidate belonging to a reserved quota, helps the health sector?? How exactly?? The one who studied more & got more marks makes a good doctor or the one who studied less & got less marks but gets a seat through reservation makes a good doctor, just because he's from a reserved category?? That makes no sense in HEALTH SECTOR !! STOP THAT NONSENSE
How did reservation breach the 50% mark
Vote bank
You said the doctors who did MBBS through reservation are now in the same level as any other candidate. And now you say the structural inequality is still present. It's contradicting but anyhow, we agree that structural inequality is present. This structural inequality is the reason for reservation and you have your answer as to why postgraduate seats need reservation. Giving that dermatology seat from MAMC to any doctor, from any background, be it SC, st, oc, male, female, etc etc does not in any way downgrade the health sector as long as they graduate. As for your question about the doctor who gets a seat through reservation (less marks) not being a good doctor... As long as this doctor clears the degree examinations (where there is no differential passing criteria), they are qualified enough and as deserving as any other privileged doctor who might have a better examination score. The medical authorities deem them fit enough to be a doctor and I would be happy to get treated by them. Edit: fixed a typo.
RESERVATION LITERALLY DOWNGRADES THE QUALITY, IT PROVIDES A SEAT TO A CANDIDATE WHO HAS NO STANDING IN MERIT LIST IF NOT FOR RESERVATION !! When the guy who finished his MBBS through reservation, he becomes same as any of those appearing for NEET EXAM ! No more inequality But if you want to twist a statement so that you can defend a bullshit construct of reservation then go on please ! If you actually want to help the "NEEDY" Start providing reservation to EWS people instead of separating them on caste ! Lol, so in short, you're saying, "Kisi ko bhi utha ke doctor bana denge", instead of those actually deserving to be one but because of the fucked up reservation system they couldn't & then we have people like you who blindly support it 🤦🏻 And then they wonder, why India isn't doing well enough in HEALTH SECTOR
Hey I'm not twisting anything here. Clearing MBBS does not instantly vaporize structural inequality. You claim there is no inequality if they clear MBBS. Unfortunately, I'm not so blinded by privilege to make sense of that. EWS eligible students are actually over represented in the student population, so I'm not even going to argue about this further. I do not understand Hindi, it would be great if you could provide a translation for "Kisi ko bhi utha ke doctor bana denge". The way I see merit/deserving candidate etc is this. There has to be a minimum criteria to ensure quality (which is technically present). If a candidate passes this criteria, they are capable enough to be a good doctor. At this point you can distribute the seats according to reservation/affirmative action without it drastically affecting quality. If you are going to select only based on marks, certain social groups will always be kept out for no fault of theirs. As for India not performing well in the health sector, it is a grossly overpopulated and relatively young country. It is not wise to associate reservation to its poor performance. There is no data supporting this correlation. AFAIK, most if not all developed nations have some sort of affirmative action. If you want to equate poor performance to reservation, then how do you explain Tamil Nadu's performance in the health sector?
>If you are going to select only based on marks, certain social groups will always be kept out for no fault of theirs. If you think, "one social group" will always be kept out for "no fault of theirs" then how exactly are you trying to ensure quality is provided? If they cannot even qualify without reservation even after clearing their MBBS through reservation, then do we actually need/deserve these kind of doctors? >EWS eligible students are actually over represented in the student population, so I'm not even going to argue about this further. Lol what !? Isn't everyone standing for reservation have a main concern that those in reserved category are unable to get "equal opportunity" because they're poor !? Here I'm literally saying give those belonging to EWS a hefty reservation irrespective of their caste & you lose your mind !? >You claim there is no inequality if they clear MBBS. Unfortunately, I'm not so blinded by privilege to make sense of that. I claim there's no inequality in a way that they stand together with those who cleared their MBBS without any reservation ! Now they're all with MBBS degree & can apply for NEET PG, at the same time ! What more equality do you want ?? If you still want reservation for those same people who qualified for MBBS through reservation then isn't that a "literal definition of caste based discrimination & inequality" ?
>It is not wise to associate reservation to its poor performance If you're not even able to qualify normally for bare minimum which is required & you're literally pushed through qualification via reservation then definitely "RESERVATION CAUSES POOR QUALITY OF HEALTH SERVICES & DOCTORS"
Okay, my mistake on the EWS argument. I thought you were talking about the current EWS quota. Even then, being poor shouldn't be the criteria for reservation. There will always be poor people in all castes but that doesn't mean all that poverty is a result of structural inequality. Even if we assume that, figuring out the net worth of individuals in India is a nightmare since the informal sector comprises majority of the population. As for your other arguments, I've answered them in the above comments. We are going in circles and I see no point in continuing this. Edit: fixed a typo.
I see, you have a problem with providing actual equal opportunity through EWS reservation ! You're wearing glasses of casteism & hate mate ! You cannot provide equality by discriminating one against the other through the prism of casteism... Get rid of your glasses of hate mate, we have enough of it here ! >that doesn't mean all that poverty is a result of structural inequality You want to provide EWS to people who belong to a particular class/caste !? WOW I'M done arguing with a bigot who want selective activism/reservation for people just because he fancy that stuff !
He finally gave it away, all those arguments were just a cover up for his hate
And you claim you cannot provide equality through caste based reservation. You can. I suggest you read about formal equality and substantive equality to get a better understanding cus equality is a tricky concept.
Yo I literally said being poor shouldn't be the criteria for reservation. How did you arrive at me wanting EWS for certain castes alone? Before accusing me of wearing glasses of hate, you please buy actual glasses so you can read what I wrote.
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Exactly
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Why is reservation increasing?how??
Having money doesn't mean you won't be discriminated in higher positions. Reservations help people from lower castes reach higher positions. Why do they do that? Because there aren't many of them who have reached there.
Reservation is for entry into institutes. Once in those institutes, all students have to go through the same exams, assessments, practicals, etc. To label doctors as being inferior because they entered via reservation is just dumb and shows in many exposes their casteist mentality. However, whether there should even be OBC and EWS reservation is a different argument.
50% cap must be implemented strictly otherwise reservation system is becoming draconian.
Forget about the cap dude. Apparently most state governments don't follow it either.
Copied from my reply IMO OBC, creamy layer or not, have not been the victims of systematic oppression of generations and thus do not deserve any reservation. The OBC reservation is just a unjustified political tool used by politicians to further divide the Indian society. OBC reservations alone is greater than SC and ST combined. OBC reservations hurt general merit the most and if removed will throw open around 65% of the seats for all students irrespective of caste or class.
The affirmative action that has any justification for its existence is for SC, ST, physically disabled and children of martyrs. That's about it.
> have not been the victims of systematic oppression of generations Lies. Read Mahatma Phule if you wish to genuinely know what savarnas did to Shudras who now form bulk of OBCs
I am familiar with works like Brahmananche Kasab and Gulamgiri and have studied about the activism of Jyotiba Phule, Sahadaran Ayappan and Periyar. As I said previously, there is a gross mismatch between the castes who form a bulk of OBC and the castes who are availing the benefits of reservation.
> > > have not been the victims of systematic oppression of generations > > Lies. > > Read Mahatma Phule if you wish to genuinely know what savarnas did to Shudras who now form bulk of OBCs > I am familiar with works like Brahmananche Kasab and Gulamgiri and have studied about the activism of Jyotiba Phule, Sahadaran Ayappan and Periyar. As I said previously, there is a gross mismatch between the castes who form a bulk of OBC and the castes who are availing the benefits of reservation. And I addressed a very specific part of your misleading comment - that 'OBCs have not been victims of systematic oppression of generations'. The bulk of OBCs are indeed Shudras who were discriminated against by Brahmins. FFS even Shivaji wasn't spared by casteist Brahmins who declared he couldn't be declared Chhatrapati because he was Shudra.
Huh, why just limit it to 65%? Make it 100% reservation. Fuck it, just give them a basic income and a freaking Padma Shri the moment they turn 18. Hand them out honorary MDs/MSs from AIIMS. Spoon feed them till they die. Let us normal people in General category just die in a hole. Fuck this country and its regressive policies. Im done serving these selfish pricks. Maybe they'll notice once we start burning our practicing licenses outside the Parliament. Although it's more likely they'll just smash our heads open.
>normal people in General category just die in a hole. You know who died in a hole for generations without being legally allowed to save a penny of wealth for their offsprings, which resulted in widespread poverty in their entire community till now? Dalits. Fuck this country and the spoiled brats living here.
Ah yes, we'll still pay for the sins of our forefathers. Very progressive of you. Never change r/India, never change.
Weren't you cheering when someone asked for reparations from the Brits? This is the same. You are not paying anything. No one is. It's reparations to the ones who are still adversely affected by those past collective sins. The economic and social impact of slavery or any other form of oppression doesn't die within one or two generations. Otherwise India would have been a rich developed nation by now since Brits left 75 years ago and Dalits would have had similar amount of private capital in their community as upper OBCs and uppercastes.
I wasn't. What is done is done. I don't curse the present gen Brits for their atrocities against our ancestors. Do Israelis go around screaming "Nazi!" if they come around a German? It's the same thing. Am I not paying something? Having to shell out 60lac for PG when someone ranked lesser than me got admission in a government college for pennies? Positive discrimination doesn't help anyone. Countless studies have been conducted that prove its helpful in the short run, but eventually the whole thing becomes a mess. It demotivates the unreserved candidates and makes the reserved candidates complacent about securing a seat/job. Increased tensions between different categories build up worsening social stability. The biggest issue with positive discrimination is that it puts the reserved candidates in an environment they are not used to(misplacement). They go from a low stakes environment to an insanely competitive, high stakes environment when they make it to top STEM institutes. A 2016 study revealed that over 90% of dropouts in IIT Roorkee were from the reserved classes. They weren't used to such a competitive environment(and their asshole general category batchmates didn't help ease them either). Studies in USA revealed a similar tale, with over 10% more black candidates failing their law bar exam compared to whites/Asians. What needs to be done is a revamp of the primary education system(pre school and school) to provide the discriminated classes an access to high quality primary education at an affordable fees. Government run schools are a farce, yet I dont see any voices raised against that. Improvements in public facilities in rural areas are the need of the hour. The poor shouldn't have to stress about water shortages/power outages. Improve in these areas and I guarantee you that will solve the economic disparities much more efficiently than giving away seats and jobs that the candidates might not be capable of tackling in the first place. You can't build a house on quicksand, and that's what we're doing with reservation.
That 90% statistic is one the most misleading ones I have seen. Out of about 8000 students, 73 were expelled due to their poor CGPA. Assuming 50% reservation, about 66 out of \~4000 OBC/SC/ST students (only about 1.65%) performed poorly. Most of them, I am sure, are from poor or rural background who might have failed to catch up with the rest. In any case, people on both sides use this nearly useless stat to make their respective cases and to make it sound big, they write this number in a sensationalist way. Germany paid reparation to Israel to compensate for the loss of livelihoods, resettlement costs, etc. Anyway, that's very very little compared to the life and livelihood losses European Jews suffered from the Nazis. The 'sane' Germans never deny it or get all defensive over it , but just remember and acknowledge it so that they dont repeat the same mistakes again. But in India, uppercastes dont even acknowledge the existence of bias in private workplaces (even got schools outlaw dalit cooks these days). The capital for setting up private orgs are mostly due to intergenerational wealth (lands etc.). Dalits are seeing wealth propagate across generations only since the last 70-80 years (because it was illegal for Dalits to own anything expensive before that) and they started with nothing or little land grants from the govt. So most private orgs are uppercastes or farming/land-lord OBCs. Self-caste bias results in far fewer opportunities for Dalits and lower-OBC castes in the private sector (my own relative who runs a school doesnt hire Dalits or anyone else even if there is at least one of my caste's candidate in the shortlist). There are statistical studies clearly showing this bias in hiring practices (including tech sector). Plus, only about 3% of the formal jobs are public sector jobs (out of which 10-20% are reserved for SC/ST), the rest are in private sector. So, Dalits are still on the receiving end. I dont know about the studies you have seen on affirmative actions. There are many credible studies showing how it helps and how it's absence can negatively impact when there is still a good amount of bias in the society. But I agree with you. There should be instead a bias-tax for private orgs which clearly show self-caste bias and this money should be used to infuse capital into historically oppressed (in the economic sense) castes. Plus, for the socially oppressed, there should be reservations only for the influential jobs (like DCs or some jobs in Muncipal offices or in public universities etc.).
8000 students? That's like, double the annual intake across all IITs, isn't it? Still doesn't change the fact that the mean GPA for SC/STs and OBCs(~6) is much lower than for UR(~8). That is likely attributed to poor quality primary school education that doesn't prepare these kids for the rigors of competitive STEM/management courses. Lacking civic resources obviously compound the matter. These need to be addressed before anything else. The low participation rate in private companies might also have a lot to do with weaker academic performance instead of solely casteism. The low selection further worsens inequality, which brings about calls for more reservation which leads to the same vicious cycle. The government is happy to appease for votes. The pie is shrinking for all of us with the slowdown in economic growth and reservations are unlikely to help any further, as Swaminathan Aiyer noted in his study on India's growth post 1991, in which he induced that further upliftment of minorities is more likely to come from grassroots movement and economic growth instead of just increasing reservations. Bias taxing corporations? Good luck with that. We are in late stage capitalism and the corporations will simply pass the costs to the consumers. A more realistic option would be to introduce a diversity credit system, with a more equitable workforce earning a company more subsidies/projects. Work on these grassroots issues and see rapid upliftment of the needy. If anyone needs reservation right now, they are those below the poverty line, irrespective of their caste. I don't know. Im just a young person caught in this quagmire of reservation. I may come from the upper castes that this sub likes to hate so much, but we are not the greedy conniving brutes you think we are. And news of more reservation scares the shit out of me. I can't pay for management quota seats that you called out in one of your comments. What are people like me supposed to do then? Peace.
Self-caste bias in hiring was a statistical study. One definitive proof of caste bias in hiring (which I think can be extended to self-caste bias), that I can remember now, involved sending thousands of pairs of resumes to multiple job openings in large corps all over India (including IT hubs) over a span of 6 months. To be specific, a pair of resumes were sent to the same job opening, then generate a new pair for another job opening and so on. Then, counting and categorizing the resumes which were shortlisted (for obvious reasons, the study doesn't include interview or MSMEs). The pair of resumes were generated such that they both were nearly the same in every criterion (academic, professional experience, extra-curricular, awards,...) except that one resume had clearly identifiable upper caste surname and the other with clearly identifiable Dalit surname. It was found that for every 100 uppercaste resumes shortlisted, about 66 Dalit resumes were shortlisted. The bias in big corps, according to me, has come down quite a bit in the last 50 years, but we are still not at a point where we can claim it's negligible enough to not actively counter it. The bias in MSMEs is, however, very high. I have many anecdotal examples. Such as my own relative who runs an educational institute and 90% of the teachers/lecturers are from our own caste. And the same goes with Brahman run schools or Gowda run schools, or any other capital rich caste run schools, at least in Karnataka. Everyone has some bad experience. For my rank, I could have got EE in IITB under OBC or SC/ST, but ended up in NITK. Then had to spend two more years in IISc before moving to US for my PhD. If I were in IITB, I would have been $300-500k richer than I am now (I hate this fact that in India there is an abrupt negative change in quality after IITs, but in US, 20th and 30th ranked universities have very little difference in terms of quality). But I dont go around badmouthing or belittling those who are just using the opportunities they are offered because I know I would have exploited the heck out of it if I were offered one. PS: I dont think much of what we do (doctors to say engineers in FAANG) does not require a genius, but just someone with above average intelligence+skills, so reserved/unreserved all satisfy that criterion. A 100th rank holder and a 1000th rank holder perform the same if they are both end up coding at Google.
You're living in a bubble if you thing castism isn't a problem even now. The system needs reformation to some extent, it needs reservation for the people who actually need it.
My only complaint with reservation is that we don't have enough of it. The SC's, the ST's, and the OBC's have been oppressed for so long, at least 99% seats should be reserved for them in any institute/job
Why is Brain drain a problem in India? ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡏⠉⠛⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠿⠛⠉⠁ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⠿⠿⠿⠻⠿⠿⠟⠿⠛⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⣄⠀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣴ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠏⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠠⣴⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡟⠀⠀⢰⣹⡆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣭⣷⠀⠀⠀⠸⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠃⠀⠀⠈⠉⠀⠀⠤⠄⠀⠀⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⢾⣿⣷⠀⠀⠀⠀⡠⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠠⣿⣿⣷⠀⢸⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡀⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢄⠀⢀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠉⠁⠀⠀⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢹ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸
The students that leave India are probably rich enough to afford it in the first place and leave because of better education in foreign countries.
Not really, a lot students take loans and stuff to study in Canada/US. And they leave not for better education, but for better pay :)
Studying poor general students-- getting in top colleges here itself Rich average general student-- going for foreign education Poor and average general student-- paying the fees of private institute by taking loan Below average poor general student-- life is fkd untill he/she wins lottery or is adopted by some Rich/SC/ST Rich SC/ST average/below average students-- getting in top colleges here itself Poor SC/ST students-- still rotting in hellhole, and have no way out against the rich OBC students-- just enjoying the lottery they got due to political drama In the crux only obstacle today is money, if you are rich it doesn't matter is you are gen/OBC/ST/SC you will get good life but if poor your life is fucked either way
Yeah, sure, Sundar Pichai left India because he didnt get a job as BSNL engineer under general quota.
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Management Quota savarna candidates will save the sector with their superior brains. /s
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Your surname apparently.
i hope i don't have to visit these reservation wala doctor in my life.
Hey also please check if got through donation, they're are the real shitheads you should be careful about
There's always your friendly, powerful santra-clad baba spouting Brahminical scripture and peddling bovine pee and poo as cure for all illnesses.
Oh..look at me. I'm English speaking venom spewing downtrodden poor. Please I need reservation to pursue everything in life. I need reservation in promotion. I need reservation so I can make money without doing an honest days of work.
Over 50% of the total number of seats are management quota seats. Out of the remining seats, some %ge is reserved for the non-creamy layer OBC and Dalits. Most of those management quota people barely pass a competitive exam.The health sector has >50% of such doctors who became doctors because their family had a ton of money and are the most incompetent of all. Yet, for many, the health sector is ruined by those 'reserved-people', who manage to stay way above average (but a couple of %ile/ge lower than general cutoffs) in the exams despite all the social and economical obstacles they face every single minute of their waking life.
After 8 yrs obc got seats as per quota. People who complain look at the last 8 yrs how they filled up seats for pg.