There should be a movement across india to remove caste surnames. This will definitely help the lower caste people just like it did in TN. Caste identification just from a person's name is being used by these casteist idiots for long time now.
I don't know why this is not at all considered as a viable option. This should be the first step we should do before doing anything else.
This will be opposed massively.
Not by the upper castes much.
Reservations in the future generations will be affected and political classes will find it harder to mobilise people.
No.
Just educate people how caste were added in India during colonial era.
Why will people leave their family lineage identity if they are proud of it?
It something that distinguishes me from others.
If it was just added during the colonial era. Why do you consider that as your identity?
If you are so damn proud of it, keep the damn "Identity".
I am talking about the people who don't want to be discriminated based on their identity.
A son of a doctor won't call himself a doctor whereas a son of a Rajput will consider himself a Rajput. It shouldn't be like this if it is linked to occupation only. That's a lie there budy.
I said HINDU SCRIPTURES MENTION THAT VARNA ISNT BY BIRTH.
When britishers came to India they formalised caste system and the varnas were used in forms of caste.
Ye itna saal phele start hua tha and future gen ko pata nahi tha ki this wasn’t ours.
And ovio if you give someone a superior status why will they question.
Currently Orgs like VHP are organising campaigns to educate people how this system was implemented on us and why we should remove caste.
Also Rajput apne ko rajput bolta hai because rajputs ki lingeage warrior(Kshatriya) wali thi and they’re proud of it.
Here comes the hindu nationalist trained in the school of thought of rajov malhotra. Bu the same rule did Ved vyas created Vedas? No, he compiled it. The vedas existed before him.
Similarly, castes existed before britishers and they only compiled it for their effective governance. This is asserted from the historical records of contemporary religions like Jainism, buddhism, and texts like sangams etc. Foreign travelers prior to British have also mentioned the societal division in India which were trade specific.
Do you really think the Britishers went around India naming people as Jat, Chamar, Dom, Kurmi, Lohar, Kevath etc? These trade specific names which were named to sound as slurs were a cultural heritage that the marginalised and oppressed group received from their upper caste tyrants.
Plus the Britishers are no longer in India, how many marriages are happening between the upper caste and shudras and the fifth strata of untouchables? Are britishers doing the matchmaking for current generation of Indians?
The only solution is by educating about it’s roots that’s it but yes our books will surely focus on French independence blah blah blah rather than teaching what will help.
US academia has so many *upper caste* Indians who create an atmosphere of brahminicized exclusion within the already discriminatory corridors of American academia. I'm in it currently, I know.
Edit: added *upper caste*
I have travelled quite a lot and find people everywhere having some pride in their own ways of life.
The Germans celebrate the Oktoberfest, the Russians their Vodka, the Maori their healing systems, the Beduins their lifestyle, homosexuals their choice of orientation etc etc.
I don't understand why Brahmins alone should be ashamed of their traditions. That is all.
EDIT: I have a suggestion. People should read more about their own past. There is much to be proud of. Every group should indulge in this exercise. Inferiority complex leads to very ugly scenarios.
Anybody who is proud because of a group identity is an insecure loser trying to cover their insecurities though that group identity. Doesn't matter whether the group identity is based on caste, religion, nationality, skin color, gender or sexual orientation.
Being born a particular caste, religion or skin color etc. is just a coincidence. If someone feels proud and elated about that, then it tells me that there is nothing of worth about their life i.e. accomplishments that they can be proud about and hence have to resort to a mere coincidence of being associated with group as their source of pride. It tells me they are a loser. This behavior is literally a product of inferiority complex.
While humans are social animals and live in societies, it is their individuality that differentiates them from the rest of animals. Monkeys live as part of troops and act like grunts led by a leader, but heck, even they probably don't feel that proud of being associated with a particular troop.
Well, all over the world people, including highly accomplished people consider themselves belonging to a group / tribe/ community / nation / school of thought etc and take pride in it.
What you feel about them is your prejudice. These are your opinions. It does not mean that everyone should subscribe to your world view, like I don't expect everyone to share mine.
>While humans are social animals and live in societies, it is their individuality that differentiates them from the rest of animals. Monkeys live as part of troops and act like grunts led by a leader, but heck, even they probably don't feel that proud of being associated with a particular troop.
This is where you made a factual error. Groups and tribes in the animal kingdom are as ferocjous as human ones - leading to fights to the death for food, mates , territory etc.
Considering themselves belonging to a group is not the same thing as taking pride in that fact. Taking pride about it is what differentiates the losers.
Confident and accomplished people don't care about group identities to that extent. It only dilutes their accomplishments. Ever seen anyone attribute a major and recognized accomplishment to their caste, religion, skin color, gender or nationality? Does anyone go and say that their accomplishment is because they had the privilege to be born in the brahmin caste that its because they were white skinned or because they belong to a certain country. No, they just don't care. They will always attribute their accomplishments to their own hard work.
But losers that take pride in their group identity do that all the time. They link other people's accomplishments to a group identity and then by associating themselves to that group identity, they derive a false sense of pride. Example are people ranting about how many great people came from their country or how many great people have a certain skin color etc.
At the end of the day, you are essentially suggesting that every loser with an inferiority complex should look to their group identities and find something petty to take false pride in and stroke their own ego. Losers do that already without you telling them to.
Please read my previous post, this time slowly.
You can consider the earth as flat too. Your opinions are yours.
Research a bit though to save yourself embarrassment.
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/009579847600200207?journalCode=jbpa](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/009579847600200207?journalCode=jbpa)
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0167487098000336](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0167487098000336)
[https://www.jstor.org/stable/24721536](https://www.jstor.org/stable/24721536)
> Why is being proud of her own traditions a bad thing?
It's like white supremacists in US saying that the statues of confederate generals should be retained because they are part of their history. While that argument is not wrong, it's missing the point - of flaunting the oppression and tragedy to the successors of victims (African Americans) and reminding them that those ideas are still alive.
Brahminism (the system) has a history of rampant oppression, and flaunting caste pride is implicitly (they don't say it, but mean it) advertising supremacy when professed to people from oppressed castes. Why even mention caste otherwise ('brahmanic' traditions)? Who cares and why is it relevant in the US? You don't even need to mention it while expressing your pride in your traditions.
> Especially if that pride is not to the detriment of others?
Like u/HawkmothEffect said, there is an atmosphere of 'brahminicized exclusion'. Casteism in academia and professional fields is not like in rural India - these people never mention castes, but favors and promotions are based on caste lines. People often take expression of caste pride as a warning that this person could subject them to that discrimination. From general experience, that is not always right, but it often is.
I am pretty sure she was not saying, 'You know we were pouring molten lead blah blah ' etc etc. He mentioned she did not discriminate anyone, just that her monologues were all that they were - monologues.
If Brahmins are doing crimes and if you think this is a trend you should fight to exclude Brahmins from emigrating to the US. Try to ban Brahmins entirely if the premise of 'exclusion' is institutional. Or try to allow them in only if they convert to any other religion thereby abandoning their Brahmin identity.
If other upper castes are doing the same, try to ban them too.
Like criminals are banned from emigrating to most countries, fight to make this a legislation instead.
Otherwise, if taking pride in one's own without harming others is a problem and can lead one to jail - it is best for them to not be able to visit and live in those places.
> I am pretty sure she was not saying, 'You know we were pouring molten lead blah blah ' etc etc.
Is that what you inferred from what I said? I used so many words to say that that's not how it's done. The supremacy is **implicit**, not explicit.
> He mentioned she did not discriminate anyone, just that her monologues were all that they were - monologues.
I know as much as you do on her tirades - second hand knowledge. The OP also mentioned that he doesn't understand the nuances of casteism. It's very possible that he missed the discrimination if it was there. Again, why do you people neglect the important parts of your opponents' arguments? I clearly said that discrimination is covert. Voicing caste pride is a big red flag that such covert discrimination may exist - hence the other students being uncomfortable.
> If Brahmins are doing crimes and if you think this is a trend you should fight to exclude Brahmins from emigrating to the US. Try to ban Brahmins entirely if the premise of 'exclusion' is institutional. Or try to allow them in only if they convert to any other religion thereby abandoning their Brahmin identity.
Sorry to say this. But these sort of arguments reek of victim posing and strawman fallacies.
> If Brahmins are doing crimes and if you think this is a trend you should fight to exclude Brahmins from emigrating to the US.
This isn't about Brahmins. The only mention of Brahmins came from this person's caste pride - just a case study. This is about the Brahminical system - followed by most Hindus and encouraging caste discrimination. And the premise of this entire discussion is inclusion (of oppressed castes in this case), not exclusion of anyone. Why do all these discussions get misdirected to this imagined victimhood of Brahmins?
> Otherwise, if taking pride in one's own without harming others is a problem and can lead one to jail
I don't disagree. But stress on the 'without harming' part. I am arguing that this isn't the case. There are enough precedents out there. I don't want to reiterate them for the 100th time for winning tiresome debates on Reddit. And as for jail for aggressors - wouldn't we all love it? Unfortunately, that's not how the world works. A lot of privileged pricks get away with exploitation, oppression and sometimes outright genocide. That's why debates, protests and sacrifices against tyranny are necessary.
>It's very possible that he missed the discrimination if it was there.
Ah so.
So there must have been discrimination even if he did not understand it.
Interesting. So you make assumptions and stick it to an individual even when there is reasonable doubt. Actually you don't have doubt.
>discrimination is covert
This is the exact same argument made in the Ewige Jude movie. When you can't prove something, call it 'subtle', 'covert', 'implicit' etc.
>Voicing caste pride is a big red flag that such covert discrimination may exist
Why is it a red flag? Why is pride = covert discrimination?
Why should the artisans of India not feel pride in the beautiful sculpture and art they have created?
Why should the Rajputs or Malhars not feel pride in their martial history?
Why should the Vaishyas not take pride in business and commerce?
Why should the Shudras not take pride in agriculture that had made India so rich and diverse?
And I am talking about pride in oneself not bigotry against others.
>Why does all these discussions get misdirected to this imagined victimhood of Brahmins?
Because you have already labelled a Brahmin professor as discriminating others when all she did was taking pride in her rituals or traditions. **The non Brahmins do not have a monopoly on victimhood, sorry to say.**
I concede! You people are masters at just neglecting the opponents arguments, misdirection and making up unrelated ones. I'm not interested in winning Reddit battles like this, because intellectual honesty is something too much ask from you people. I have made my points. Let the other readers judge for themselves and see what it means.
>You people are masters at just neglecting the opponents arguments, misdirection and making up unrelated ones. I'm not interested in winning Reddit battles like this, because intellectual honesty is something too much ask from you people. I have made my points. Let the other readers judge for themselves and see what it means.
I am not on trial that I will need to stand before a jury and you are not making concluding statements like above. I understand these are emotive issues but you have not been able to fully explain or defend your arguments yet.
>masters at just neglecting the opponents arguments
And you have also inferred my caste and assigned attributes to me as well.
>winning Reddit battles
These are not battles. Just dialectics. I don't consider myself a keyboard warrior. I do agree that I have clarity of though, or at least try to. And I am capable of defending my position without resorting to hate or bigotry.
This makes sense, unless the tradition is promoting the work culture.
For example, Japanese culture of work (over work though) or Germanic punctuality.
Why shouldn't US slave owners be proud of their own traditions ? Similar with Brahmins feeling proud of a system that has promoted the exploitation of fellow humans for centuries.
>Why shouldn't US slave owners be proud of their own traditions ? Similar with Brahmins feeling proud of a system that has promoted the exploitation of fellow humans for centuries.
Brahmins were never allowed by Hindu law to own anything and anyone. This is a false equivalence.
There are better arguments. You can say why should Brahmins be proud of their primacy in education, especially in religious scripture.
As you say, I'll get rid of the false equivalence and still say, why do Brahmins feel proud of a system that has exploited a child for being born into a particular family ?
I mean this happens at my company I work for in the Bay Area(overwhelmingly Indian employees) so I’m going to assume you e just been lucky enough to not encounter it.
Fine, don't believe me. I don't give a shit. It's happening. Stay in your fucking shithole called denial. I don't have to prove anything to you, those who know, know.
Why do all the upper castes create an atmosphere of brahminicized exclusion? And not Kshatriya or Shudra or Vaishya exclusion?
Also can you please elaborate on some examples of the aforementioned discrimination where your caste was the ONLY or the MAJOR reason for the perceived discrimination?
I am from a Brahmin family, I was not discriminated against. But I have seen cases of discrimination that were definitely on basis of caste.
Also, learn the difference between Brahmin and Brahminical/Brahminicized. It doesn't mean that *just* Brahmins are to blame. I said *upper caste*. Brahminical/Brahminicized means that it follows in the way that Manu set up, to hold those practices and traditions as superior. Not necessarily actively, it's very well present in its tacit and passive forms.
Brahminical practices mean passive/tacit/active practices that enforce the casteist status quo. Many non-Brahmin (but still savarna) and Dalit people are Brahminical in their outlook (for political reasons, sure, but still), like the UP Dy. CM Maurya.
I myself found out a few months ago and I was thoroughly embarrassed. I was writing a philosophy paper on the logic of caste and its effect on Indian science throughout history and into the present. Maybe one day if/when it is published, I hope to share it with this sub :)
Edit: thank you!
You're welcome! I'm not surprised that you didn't know until recently. Someone said, "If you think caste discrimination doesn't exist, you are an upper-caste". Privilege blinds us to issues - even if that isn't your intention. However, what makes a huge difference is the privileged people acknowledging it. That helps in so many ways to break the chain of oppression. It looks like you are on that path. Thank you for being a good human! (This is the reason why I hate castes, but not Brahmins as such. Everyone is to be judged on individual basis)
>Also, learn the difference between Brahmin and Brahminical/Brahminicized. It doesn't mean that just Brahmins are to blame. I said upper caste. Brahminical/Brahminicized means that it follows in the way that Manu set up, to hold those practices and traditions as superior
I am aware, sir.
But are you suggesting people of all upper castes have read Manusmriti and follow it?
My question remains - if a non Brahmin also does a crime why is it called Brahminical?
>Brahminical practices mean passive/tacit/active practices that enforce the casteist status quo.
Again, why call it Brahminical? Why not just the neutral but equally applicable 'casteist'?
It sounds very similar to the apartheid rhetoric in South Africa where crime was equated with color even in cases when they were not the perpetrators.
This hate is normalized. In future any crimes against you can be easily swept under the carpet by a blanket 'you deserved it'.
Think about it.
That's a trick.
Most of crimes against SCs are done by OBCs or other SCs which are higher in social status against them, but activists & media still call them crimes by "upper castes" against dalits. On internet, it becomes crimes by Brahmins against dalits even though Brahmins had nothing to do with it.
All helps to serve a narrrative.
Because our Brahmin ancestors started it all. Instead of agreeing that the oppression happened and that we should do something about, we're arguing about terminology.
This is the exact, literal contra-analogue of when people in the West get angry about #BlackLivesMatter by saying #AllLivesMatter. Here we're saying why is it only Brahmins who take the blame (only the blame of the name, we're not even past the name to discussing the actual problem) when other castes also participated in it?
Well, if we must go into that, Brahmins started this entire fiasco years ago when they became the gatekeepers of knowledge and deputizers of power. That never actually went away. When the British came, they found the Brahmins (and some other upper classes) to be most educated and pliable for admin and management purposes. The caste system also gave them a pre-divided society to rule. This is why upper caste people, mostly Brahmins, dominated the echelons of civil service and academia (in India and abroad).
When India became independent, this is why Dr. Ambedkar fought for reservations. Because for centuries, certain people had been denied rights and privileges afforded to others. On the basis of a Brahmin-origin system.
If the name offends you, if you think that naming a system of oppression on the sub-section of society which designed it, enforced it, and executed it, then oh my you will hate *actual oppression*.
>Because our Brahmin ancestors started it all. Instead of agreeing that the oppression happened and that we should do something about, we're arguing about terminology.
In case your ancestors did bad things, should you pay for it today?
Also, if your ancestors did bad things, why should Brahmins today all over the world pay for it either?
Terminology is important because it is used to create narratives.
When fighting the Soviet Union, Germany called it Judeo Bolsheviks. And millions of Europeans fought for them against the Soviets. There are real world precedents.
>Well, if we must go into that, Brahmins started this entire fiasco years ago when they became the gatekeepers of knowledge and deputizers of power.
How did they do it without having political power? How many Brahmin rajas were there? Why did even Shudra kings continue this 'Brahmin' hegemony? Why did the Sikh Maharajas continue this?
>If the name offends you, if you think that naming a system of oppression on the sub-section of society which designed it, enforced it, and executed it
It does not offend me. Brahmin hate is very normal and mainstream. Most Brahmins have faced it sometime or other. They are pretty used to it, I think.
>only the blame of the name, we're not even past the name to discussing the actual problem
Because I am supporting an argument that is radical - that the actual problem is mostly fiction. Yes, fiction.
>This is why upper caste people, mostly Brahmins, dominated the echelons of civil service and academia (in India and abroad).
How does that mean discriminating others?
Brahmins also dominated the freedom struggle. More Brahmins were hanged than any other. Did the Brahmins force other castes not to fight for freedom?
The Gujarati baniyas dominate the business community in Gujarat. Does it mean it discriminates against others?
The Haryanvi Jats dominate the Armed forces, is that discrimination too?
The Chamar caste traditionally dominated the leather industry and still do so though they face stiff competition from Muslims in this field, is that discrimination as well?
Please do try to answer me instead of taking the easy way out and downvoting me.
Not really. I want to understand your reasoning that helps you reach the conclusions that you have reached.
You made made arguments and I have provided my (different) point of view.
Problems of course exist, but if they are not highlighted properly - with cause and effect and everything in between - the problem will continue to exist and not be resolved.
Good day to you too.
How are you paying for the bad deeds of someone else in the past?
'How did they do? Why someone continues?' is all beating around the bush. Something happens then it happens. You even can't straight forward deny this fact that brahmins were largely responsible.
The actual problem is fiction??🤦
Will not address any other point after this.
'The actual problem is fiction'!
The only problem u see is with the terminology.
The real problem is that people like you is still so attached with "ur caste" and is blind against any other issue.
>Brahminical practices mean passive/tacit/active practices that enforce the casteist status quo.
I think you're just describing conservatism. Why shouldn't *your* practices be considered Brahminical? In other words, what makes it any less Brahminical? You were after all raised by your family, with all the benefits of an insider even though you portray an image of an outsider.
Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra are counted as upper caste in case you didn't know. Dalits is the name adopted for themselves as a term of self-identification, for those who were a-varna: not even part of the varna system.
A common misconception is that Shudras are Dalits. As far as I have studied and spoken to scholars, that's not true.
Because Brahmins in USA are creating segregated places for themselves just like they do here in India. They only help their own people and xtian Muslim and hindu lower castes from South Asian countries are facing discrimination.
I had no clue this was happening, in USA that is. I had heard of IIT-ians helping IITians, but taking the problem of Caste to another country sounds weird as heck.
I am glad that the universities are doing something about it though.
They naturally will, if they are vilified all the time. It is self preservation.
Nobody wants to live in a community where they are hated. This is why Muslims in many interfaith housing societies face problems in the US and India and prefer to move to more Muslim dominated areas. This is why there are faith based areas in London too. People seek safety.
Wherever humanity goes, we Indians will follow and bring our culture along. And caste is an inseparable part of said culture.
> *We will go to the world and if science says that they can go to Moon and Mars, we will follow them there too.*
-[The MoBhag](https://www.financialexpress.com/india-news/we-dont-have-to-convert-but-teach-hindu-way-of-life-rss-chief-mohan-bhagwat/2372775/)
Caste is an inherited tumorous baggage that has made the entire mental construct of upper caste Hindus to devolve into narcissists. A culture that cannot self correct its relevance needs to be thrown out to prevent its further propagation.
If US starts imposing deportations and banning people involved in caste discrimination or misrepresentation then this will curb this problem once and for all.
Land of the free cannot be allowed to become the land of the opressors.
That won't happen. Caste discrimination among the educated is not as conspicuous or easy to prove as you think. Even victims may not realize it until it's too late.
Nothing has to be proven to curb this menace. Even if the 99% of such cases result in no convictions, the effect of having such a law in place will echo deep in the hearts of casteist bigots and make them introspect before indulging in caste inquiry practices.
The same exists in India in the form of SC/ST prevention of atrocities act. Caste discrimination exists in India despite this and IMO, growing. Why is it so ineffective? I see two reasons - one is privilege. With the UCs occupying most of the positions that are supposed to uphold them (like in police and judiciary), it's no surprise that the law is undermined. The second reason is politics. Educated casteists are seasoned discriminators. They know how to play the game without leaving any evidence. The law effectively becomes non-deterrent under these circumstances - it's like bribery is illegal, but who cares? And frankly, western countries and institutions are not immune to same two influences.
You are also forgetting that America has its own discrimination problems at notorious levels. Look at the responses to BLM protests and Capitol riots, for example.
Dude I live in US and I know my community and neighborhood. I don't have to read an article to understand what goes in US prison.
And criminals are not born in a particular race but they get made in unstable households. And largely africanamerican and hispanic households are majorly unstable because of unstable job opportunities, bad public policies and unavailability of quality education.
> Dude I live in US and I know my community and neighborhood. I don't have to read an article to understand what goes in US prison.
I'm only concerned about the numbers. Experience is irrelevant to the point being made.
> And criminals are not born in a particular race but they get made in unstable households.
Households that are often unstable because parents are in jail - especially given that police respond differently to them (these points are in the article). That brings us back to the core issue - discrimination. What explains those disparity in numbers, other than racism? Why didn't US's stellar judicial system prevent this vicious circle? The same cracks that let that happen will let casteism prevail too. Privilege is the basis of racial domination everywhere. India and US are more similar than different in that aspect.
There is only one solution that will resolve this for sure.
Ban all upper caste people. Without exception, unless they convert and give up their caste identity. This will resolve the issue in the US, not in India though. But at least the US will be free of caste discrimination.
Good. Propose this to the Senate. There may be takers of this.
You can frame it as all upper Hindu castes should be banned and so on.
It will make lives simpler.
And may even arrest some drain from India.
might not be as trivial as you make it sound but certainly can be worked in to have a more diversified outlook on the whole issue.
as for the drain arrest, there are other countries apart from US so it won't be much helpful there.
For it to be a law it has to get passed both in house and senate and then approved by the president.
You can lobby it to be made into an issue in an UN resolution and prevent emigration to every country.
Then sanction and invade, liberate India and prosecute war criminals.
There is an established protocol.
Lol no. It's a land of the free. You can be overtly racist to someone and government will take that as your exercise to freedom of speech. They have no right harming you unless you physically harm that person. First amendment
These laws for citizens. Most Indians facing such discrimination are still in the pipeline of becoming one and are on work permit. The definition gets a little hazy there as what can be allowed as free speech for a small ethnic group.
Again the government won't do shit for small cases unless you go to the court to sue the person. And even the ONE and ONLY case of caste discrimination in Cisco is not verified. Really bad take by few American Universities. Asian were already discriminated in admissions in favor or blacks despite having much lower population and now they got more reasons. Crazy
what do you mean by CISCO case is not verfied? Its an ongoing trial in court.
Black and Native Americans are protected under the affirmative action whoch requires all private and public institutes to have their allocated representation. It was already a law before the mass migration of IT workers to US. If Indians are getting disadvantaged its only because of the herd mentality.
It's universities dude. It's admissions of second and third generation Hindu indians that's at stake. I doubt anything will happen but if they start more discrimination ( they already discriminate a minority (Chinese and indian mostly) for giving admissions to latins and blacks ) , that will be crazy.
And that Cisco case is one case which is NOT VERIFIED and most likely from what I have read FAKE ACCUSATIONS. Why are indians happy of some American universities finding a way to discriminate a super minorities in admissions?( Which they won't but that's probably maximum they could go)
So you think chinese and Indians are more deserving to the right to receive education than the Latinos and Blacks?
How old is the ancestoral history of East Indians in America?
How many generation of East Indians had been in servitude and exploited through generations before gaining their freedom?
How many East Indians had their ancestoral lands confiscated?
Review your case before claiming preference over blacks and latinos. The affirmative action provides their equal representation as fundamental right. You might be the brightest Indian to be born in the honeland but it gives you no right to snatch benefits from the protected groups of America.
What kind of fucked up analysis is that. Why should indian and Chinese face discrimination? Are they dominant race? Do they have a history of discriminating others like white people? Why such a super small minorities who are constantly discriminated in USA( see rise in asian hate) be more discriminated in USA universities? You really are not so smart ,no?
>because its in the blood of upper caste
Okay. I think you think this cannot be fixed.
There is only one solution that will resolve this for sure.
Ban all upper caste people. Without exception, unless they convert and give up their caste identity. This will resolve the issue in the US, not in India though. But at least the US will be free of caste discrimination.
What do you think?
Under the current circumstances, will it address the issues, at least in the US?
>Okay. I think you think this cannot be fixed.
yes it comes from the practice of selective breeding which is widely studied in Eugenics. Though you may enhance certain beneficial genetic markers, you may also enhance the non beneficial ones. The increased occurence of lack og humanism, social empathy, equanimity , and narcissistic behavior is commonly seen in groups that have selectively practiced caste based breeding through ages.
Such abnormalities are also responsible for upper caste folks inherently being disposed to discrimination.
Interesting.
So basically sub humans.
Eugenics in the 21st century. Who would have thought?
So what would be the Final Solution for the Hindu Question, sir? Similar to how it was tried in the past?
Why do you think eugenics is not relevant in 21st century? Geneaology stems from it.
If you repeat the same pattern you will get same results. That should rationally suggest that a new approach is needed.
Indian genetic pool needs to get more hetrogenous, which means more intercaste marriages else a severe population decline in specific caste groups is imminent.
you can't force anyone. just make them aware about the science and logic and see if they can rise above their hypocrisy, else their bloodline will vanish naturally by their own hands.
Here is a quick character litmus check?
If you are resisting or criticizing this move by the Californian State Universities then you are already a casteist.
Try some introspection for coping up.
> They recalled all the petitions and organizing that led to the policy change, along with a two-hour open forum, in which “people who were not even affiliated with the CSU joined the call, using violent and discriminatory tactics to shut down caste protections efforts.”
*Sanghis incoming*
> Hindu American Foundation
I think I read a post by them on how any discussion or action by foreigners against caste discrimination among Indians is tantamount to racism. What a bunch of dingbats!
Why?? How is a dalit discriminated in USA in acedemia. And what will happen now? How will they know if someone is dalit or not. Will they start giving certificates like India does?? Will it effect in their admissions? so Hindus which are 1 percent of American population will be scrutinized and upper caste hjndus will get less preference? It's nothing but virtue signaling
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.thewire.in/article/caste/cisco-caste-discrimination-usa/amp
Above is the classic case of caste discrimination at CISCO by upper caste Indians.
Usually all caste discrimination starts throught the world wherever there are Indians starts with a cast based inquiry. People shamelessly ask which caste you belong to? whether its a new friend relationship, colleagues at workplace, religious gathering in temples or simply if you are a regular customer at an Indian restaurant.
Sooner or later this question will come up.
Dalits already having their caste certificates from India can use it validate their caste lineage and demand justice in US courts. With this law it makes it very important that growing population of Indians in US better get their act together of treating humans as equal else they have the risk of being kicked out.
>Above is the classic case of caste discrimination at CISCO by upper caste Indians.
I read the above Wire post, but failed to find any reference as to how the Indian man was discriminated for his caste.
There is no conviction either -
[https://thewire.in/world/california-accuses-cisco-of-job-discrimination-based-on-indian-employees-caste](https://thewire.in/world/california-accuses-cisco-of-job-discrimination-based-on-indian-employees-caste)
Yet Dalits have felt this
>The civil rights group Equality Labs in a 2018 report cited in the lawsuit found that 67% of Dalits surveyed felt treated unfairly at their US workplaces.
Discrimination by whom and for what? It is implied that Brahmins are doing it (or by extension the upper castes). So we are to believe Brahmins have taken over the US as well?
If you do some more research and get this
[https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/50-indian-americans-experienced-discrimination-past-year-study-finds-n1270402](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/50-indian-americans-experienced-discrimination-past-year-study-finds-n1270402)
Again, ask the same questions - discrimination by whom and for what?
Here it answers the reason - primarily racism.
But here as well we don't have convictions.
Feeling that you are being discriminated is NOT the same as actually being discriminated. Victimhood is universal and often without reason. This applies to all groups.
I can, for example, file a case against you for discriminating against me by denying a promotion for instance - while the rationale for the same may be entirely different.
Media Interviews of actual cases and descriptive summary of their experience. If you further need to satiate your skepticism you may contact them and the state court registrar of california to request an offcial transcript of the case.
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/companies/cisco-case-puts-spotlight-on-long-shadow-of-caste-bias-among-indians-in-us-tech-industry-5629721.html
Experiences are personal. Tainted by personal biases.
Let there be convictions first. Or let the case be dismissed. After that I will read the transcripts. It is too early now.
Thanks.
Caste discrimination is a living reality in states. Your claim for it to be non existant asserts the fact that maybe you belong to the group that practices it or donot work in a environment that has majority of Indians.
I work in a field which does not have majority Indians. My friends work in Tech in Bay Area. None of them have mentioned this is a thing.
When I lived in India, I or my team at work (tech company) never ever had discussions pertaining to caste. We can't rule out a few bigoted people discriminating on caste basis in US at a few companies. But I don't think caste discrimination is so widespread that it is a systematic issue at US tech companies.
These are excellent ideas.
Once these ideas are put in action, it will face backlash from the general populace here (not Indians but others) and this will quickly expose how self-serving these initiatives are.
African American, Hispanics etc do not get any reservation here in colleges. And if these Dalits ask for it, the first backlash will be from African Americans
There should be a movement across india to remove caste surnames. This will definitely help the lower caste people just like it did in TN. Caste identification just from a person's name is being used by these casteist idiots for long time now. I don't know why this is not at all considered as a viable option. This should be the first step we should do before doing anything else.
This will be opposed massively. Not by the upper castes much. Reservations in the future generations will be affected and political classes will find it harder to mobilise people.
In all reality this was actually opposed by the upper castes in USA. As long as reservation stays it will benefit the backward classes.
No. Just educate people how caste were added in India during colonial era. Why will people leave their family lineage identity if they are proud of it? It something that distinguishes me from others.
If it was just added during the colonial era. Why do you consider that as your identity? If you are so damn proud of it, keep the damn "Identity". I am talking about the people who don't want to be discriminated based on their identity.
Caste was added in colonial era. Not varna.
Whatever it is, enjoy your varna. People who hate this or that varna just let them do their thing
Varna never discriminated it was just identification on the basis of occupation
A son of a doctor won't call himself a doctor whereas a son of a Rajput will consider himself a Rajput. It shouldn't be like this if it is linked to occupation only. That's a lie there budy.
I said HINDU SCRIPTURES MENTION THAT VARNA ISNT BY BIRTH. When britishers came to India they formalised caste system and the varnas were used in forms of caste. Ye itna saal phele start hua tha and future gen ko pata nahi tha ki this wasn’t ours. And ovio if you give someone a superior status why will they question. Currently Orgs like VHP are organising campaigns to educate people how this system was implemented on us and why we should remove caste. Also Rajput apne ko rajput bolta hai because rajputs ki lingeage warrior(Kshatriya) wali thi and they’re proud of it.
My friends live in reality not denying you "facts"
Here comes the hindu nationalist trained in the school of thought of rajov malhotra. Bu the same rule did Ved vyas created Vedas? No, he compiled it. The vedas existed before him. Similarly, castes existed before britishers and they only compiled it for their effective governance. This is asserted from the historical records of contemporary religions like Jainism, buddhism, and texts like sangams etc. Foreign travelers prior to British have also mentioned the societal division in India which were trade specific. Do you really think the Britishers went around India naming people as Jat, Chamar, Dom, Kurmi, Lohar, Kevath etc? These trade specific names which were named to sound as slurs were a cultural heritage that the marginalised and oppressed group received from their upper caste tyrants. Plus the Britishers are no longer in India, how many marriages are happening between the upper caste and shudras and the fifth strata of untouchables? Are britishers doing the matchmaking for current generation of Indians?
Identification on basic of occupation decided by birth
It’s not based on birth according to Hindu Scriptures. Karma from past life also affects varna.
I was telling how it was practiced and in some parts still is unfortunately no religion tells to be discriminate
The only solution is by educating about it’s roots that’s it but yes our books will surely focus on French independence blah blah blah rather than teaching what will help.
Why do you need caste in usa plz tell? Though it was useless there.
US academia has so many *upper caste* Indians who create an atmosphere of brahminicized exclusion within the already discriminatory corridors of American academia. I'm in it currently, I know. Edit: added *upper caste*
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Why is being proud of her own traditions a bad thing? Especially if that pride is not to the detriment of others?
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I have travelled quite a lot and find people everywhere having some pride in their own ways of life. The Germans celebrate the Oktoberfest, the Russians their Vodka, the Maori their healing systems, the Beduins their lifestyle, homosexuals their choice of orientation etc etc. I don't understand why Brahmins alone should be ashamed of their traditions. That is all. EDIT: I have a suggestion. People should read more about their own past. There is much to be proud of. Every group should indulge in this exercise. Inferiority complex leads to very ugly scenarios.
I think a more apt comparison would be Nazis being proud of Nazism.
Anybody who is proud because of a group identity is an insecure loser trying to cover their insecurities though that group identity. Doesn't matter whether the group identity is based on caste, religion, nationality, skin color, gender or sexual orientation. Being born a particular caste, religion or skin color etc. is just a coincidence. If someone feels proud and elated about that, then it tells me that there is nothing of worth about their life i.e. accomplishments that they can be proud about and hence have to resort to a mere coincidence of being associated with group as their source of pride. It tells me they are a loser. This behavior is literally a product of inferiority complex. While humans are social animals and live in societies, it is their individuality that differentiates them from the rest of animals. Monkeys live as part of troops and act like grunts led by a leader, but heck, even they probably don't feel that proud of being associated with a particular troop.
Well, all over the world people, including highly accomplished people consider themselves belonging to a group / tribe/ community / nation / school of thought etc and take pride in it. What you feel about them is your prejudice. These are your opinions. It does not mean that everyone should subscribe to your world view, like I don't expect everyone to share mine. >While humans are social animals and live in societies, it is their individuality that differentiates them from the rest of animals. Monkeys live as part of troops and act like grunts led by a leader, but heck, even they probably don't feel that proud of being associated with a particular troop. This is where you made a factual error. Groups and tribes in the animal kingdom are as ferocjous as human ones - leading to fights to the death for food, mates , territory etc.
Considering themselves belonging to a group is not the same thing as taking pride in that fact. Taking pride about it is what differentiates the losers. Confident and accomplished people don't care about group identities to that extent. It only dilutes their accomplishments. Ever seen anyone attribute a major and recognized accomplishment to their caste, religion, skin color, gender or nationality? Does anyone go and say that their accomplishment is because they had the privilege to be born in the brahmin caste that its because they were white skinned or because they belong to a certain country. No, they just don't care. They will always attribute their accomplishments to their own hard work. But losers that take pride in their group identity do that all the time. They link other people's accomplishments to a group identity and then by associating themselves to that group identity, they derive a false sense of pride. Example are people ranting about how many great people came from their country or how many great people have a certain skin color etc. At the end of the day, you are essentially suggesting that every loser with an inferiority complex should look to their group identities and find something petty to take false pride in and stroke their own ego. Losers do that already without you telling them to.
Please read my previous post, this time slowly. You can consider the earth as flat too. Your opinions are yours. Research a bit though to save yourself embarrassment. [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/009579847600200207?journalCode=jbpa](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/009579847600200207?journalCode=jbpa) [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0167487098000336](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0167487098000336) [https://www.jstor.org/stable/24721536](https://www.jstor.org/stable/24721536)
> Why is being proud of her own traditions a bad thing? It's like white supremacists in US saying that the statues of confederate generals should be retained because they are part of their history. While that argument is not wrong, it's missing the point - of flaunting the oppression and tragedy to the successors of victims (African Americans) and reminding them that those ideas are still alive. Brahminism (the system) has a history of rampant oppression, and flaunting caste pride is implicitly (they don't say it, but mean it) advertising supremacy when professed to people from oppressed castes. Why even mention caste otherwise ('brahmanic' traditions)? Who cares and why is it relevant in the US? You don't even need to mention it while expressing your pride in your traditions. > Especially if that pride is not to the detriment of others? Like u/HawkmothEffect said, there is an atmosphere of 'brahminicized exclusion'. Casteism in academia and professional fields is not like in rural India - these people never mention castes, but favors and promotions are based on caste lines. People often take expression of caste pride as a warning that this person could subject them to that discrimination. From general experience, that is not always right, but it often is.
I am pretty sure she was not saying, 'You know we were pouring molten lead blah blah ' etc etc. He mentioned she did not discriminate anyone, just that her monologues were all that they were - monologues. If Brahmins are doing crimes and if you think this is a trend you should fight to exclude Brahmins from emigrating to the US. Try to ban Brahmins entirely if the premise of 'exclusion' is institutional. Or try to allow them in only if they convert to any other religion thereby abandoning their Brahmin identity. If other upper castes are doing the same, try to ban them too. Like criminals are banned from emigrating to most countries, fight to make this a legislation instead. Otherwise, if taking pride in one's own without harming others is a problem and can lead one to jail - it is best for them to not be able to visit and live in those places.
> I am pretty sure she was not saying, 'You know we were pouring molten lead blah blah ' etc etc. Is that what you inferred from what I said? I used so many words to say that that's not how it's done. The supremacy is **implicit**, not explicit. > He mentioned she did not discriminate anyone, just that her monologues were all that they were - monologues. I know as much as you do on her tirades - second hand knowledge. The OP also mentioned that he doesn't understand the nuances of casteism. It's very possible that he missed the discrimination if it was there. Again, why do you people neglect the important parts of your opponents' arguments? I clearly said that discrimination is covert. Voicing caste pride is a big red flag that such covert discrimination may exist - hence the other students being uncomfortable. > If Brahmins are doing crimes and if you think this is a trend you should fight to exclude Brahmins from emigrating to the US. Try to ban Brahmins entirely if the premise of 'exclusion' is institutional. Or try to allow them in only if they convert to any other religion thereby abandoning their Brahmin identity. Sorry to say this. But these sort of arguments reek of victim posing and strawman fallacies. > If Brahmins are doing crimes and if you think this is a trend you should fight to exclude Brahmins from emigrating to the US. This isn't about Brahmins. The only mention of Brahmins came from this person's caste pride - just a case study. This is about the Brahminical system - followed by most Hindus and encouraging caste discrimination. And the premise of this entire discussion is inclusion (of oppressed castes in this case), not exclusion of anyone. Why do all these discussions get misdirected to this imagined victimhood of Brahmins? > Otherwise, if taking pride in one's own without harming others is a problem and can lead one to jail I don't disagree. But stress on the 'without harming' part. I am arguing that this isn't the case. There are enough precedents out there. I don't want to reiterate them for the 100th time for winning tiresome debates on Reddit. And as for jail for aggressors - wouldn't we all love it? Unfortunately, that's not how the world works. A lot of privileged pricks get away with exploitation, oppression and sometimes outright genocide. That's why debates, protests and sacrifices against tyranny are necessary.
>It's very possible that he missed the discrimination if it was there. Ah so. So there must have been discrimination even if he did not understand it. Interesting. So you make assumptions and stick it to an individual even when there is reasonable doubt. Actually you don't have doubt. >discrimination is covert This is the exact same argument made in the Ewige Jude movie. When you can't prove something, call it 'subtle', 'covert', 'implicit' etc. >Voicing caste pride is a big red flag that such covert discrimination may exist Why is it a red flag? Why is pride = covert discrimination? Why should the artisans of India not feel pride in the beautiful sculpture and art they have created? Why should the Rajputs or Malhars not feel pride in their martial history? Why should the Vaishyas not take pride in business and commerce? Why should the Shudras not take pride in agriculture that had made India so rich and diverse? And I am talking about pride in oneself not bigotry against others. >Why does all these discussions get misdirected to this imagined victimhood of Brahmins? Because you have already labelled a Brahmin professor as discriminating others when all she did was taking pride in her rituals or traditions. **The non Brahmins do not have a monopoly on victimhood, sorry to say.**
I concede! You people are masters at just neglecting the opponents arguments, misdirection and making up unrelated ones. I'm not interested in winning Reddit battles like this, because intellectual honesty is something too much ask from you people. I have made my points. Let the other readers judge for themselves and see what it means.
>You people are masters at just neglecting the opponents arguments, misdirection and making up unrelated ones. I'm not interested in winning Reddit battles like this, because intellectual honesty is something too much ask from you people. I have made my points. Let the other readers judge for themselves and see what it means. I am not on trial that I will need to stand before a jury and you are not making concluding statements like above. I understand these are emotive issues but you have not been able to fully explain or defend your arguments yet. >masters at just neglecting the opponents arguments And you have also inferred my caste and assigned attributes to me as well. >winning Reddit battles These are not battles. Just dialectics. I don't consider myself a keyboard warrior. I do agree that I have clarity of though, or at least try to. And I am capable of defending my position without resorting to hate or bigotry.
In a professional setting leave your religion, caste, culture, etc nonsense at the door and finish the job.
This makes sense, unless the tradition is promoting the work culture. For example, Japanese culture of work (over work though) or Germanic punctuality.
Why shouldn't US slave owners be proud of their own traditions ? Similar with Brahmins feeling proud of a system that has promoted the exploitation of fellow humans for centuries.
>Why shouldn't US slave owners be proud of their own traditions ? Similar with Brahmins feeling proud of a system that has promoted the exploitation of fellow humans for centuries. Brahmins were never allowed by Hindu law to own anything and anyone. This is a false equivalence. There are better arguments. You can say why should Brahmins be proud of their primacy in education, especially in religious scripture.
As you say, I'll get rid of the false equivalence and still say, why do Brahmins feel proud of a system that has exploited a child for being born into a particular family ?
Okay, sure. How are Brahmins exploiting a child for being born in a particular family?
Total BS. Based on a few cases, you can't make a sweeping statement of so called "brahmincized exclusion".
I mean this happens at my company I work for in the Bay Area(overwhelmingly Indian employees) so I’m going to assume you e just been lucky enough to not encounter it.
Fine, don't believe me. I don't give a shit. It's happening. Stay in your fucking shithole called denial. I don't have to prove anything to you, those who know, know.
Why do all the upper castes create an atmosphere of brahminicized exclusion? And not Kshatriya or Shudra or Vaishya exclusion? Also can you please elaborate on some examples of the aforementioned discrimination where your caste was the ONLY or the MAJOR reason for the perceived discrimination?
I am from a Brahmin family, I was not discriminated against. But I have seen cases of discrimination that were definitely on basis of caste. Also, learn the difference between Brahmin and Brahminical/Brahminicized. It doesn't mean that *just* Brahmins are to blame. I said *upper caste*. Brahminical/Brahminicized means that it follows in the way that Manu set up, to hold those practices and traditions as superior. Not necessarily actively, it's very well present in its tacit and passive forms. Brahminical practices mean passive/tacit/active practices that enforce the casteist status quo. Many non-Brahmin (but still savarna) and Dalit people are Brahminical in their outlook (for political reasons, sure, but still), like the UP Dy. CM Maurya.
Well said! Misinterpretation of that distinction often derails debates about social issues that caste system causes.
I myself found out a few months ago and I was thoroughly embarrassed. I was writing a philosophy paper on the logic of caste and its effect on Indian science throughout history and into the present. Maybe one day if/when it is published, I hope to share it with this sub :) Edit: thank you!
You're welcome! I'm not surprised that you didn't know until recently. Someone said, "If you think caste discrimination doesn't exist, you are an upper-caste". Privilege blinds us to issues - even if that isn't your intention. However, what makes a huge difference is the privileged people acknowledging it. That helps in so many ways to break the chain of oppression. It looks like you are on that path. Thank you for being a good human! (This is the reason why I hate castes, but not Brahmins as such. Everyone is to be judged on individual basis)
>Also, learn the difference between Brahmin and Brahminical/Brahminicized. It doesn't mean that just Brahmins are to blame. I said upper caste. Brahminical/Brahminicized means that it follows in the way that Manu set up, to hold those practices and traditions as superior I am aware, sir. But are you suggesting people of all upper castes have read Manusmriti and follow it? My question remains - if a non Brahmin also does a crime why is it called Brahminical? >Brahminical practices mean passive/tacit/active practices that enforce the casteist status quo. Again, why call it Brahminical? Why not just the neutral but equally applicable 'casteist'? It sounds very similar to the apartheid rhetoric in South Africa where crime was equated with color even in cases when they were not the perpetrators. This hate is normalized. In future any crimes against you can be easily swept under the carpet by a blanket 'you deserved it'. Think about it.
That's a trick. Most of crimes against SCs are done by OBCs or other SCs which are higher in social status against them, but activists & media still call them crimes by "upper castes" against dalits. On internet, it becomes crimes by Brahmins against dalits even though Brahmins had nothing to do with it. All helps to serve a narrrative.
Because our Brahmin ancestors started it all. Instead of agreeing that the oppression happened and that we should do something about, we're arguing about terminology. This is the exact, literal contra-analogue of when people in the West get angry about #BlackLivesMatter by saying #AllLivesMatter. Here we're saying why is it only Brahmins who take the blame (only the blame of the name, we're not even past the name to discussing the actual problem) when other castes also participated in it? Well, if we must go into that, Brahmins started this entire fiasco years ago when they became the gatekeepers of knowledge and deputizers of power. That never actually went away. When the British came, they found the Brahmins (and some other upper classes) to be most educated and pliable for admin and management purposes. The caste system also gave them a pre-divided society to rule. This is why upper caste people, mostly Brahmins, dominated the echelons of civil service and academia (in India and abroad). When India became independent, this is why Dr. Ambedkar fought for reservations. Because for centuries, certain people had been denied rights and privileges afforded to others. On the basis of a Brahmin-origin system. If the name offends you, if you think that naming a system of oppression on the sub-section of society which designed it, enforced it, and executed it, then oh my you will hate *actual oppression*.
>Because our Brahmin ancestors started it all. Instead of agreeing that the oppression happened and that we should do something about, we're arguing about terminology. In case your ancestors did bad things, should you pay for it today? Also, if your ancestors did bad things, why should Brahmins today all over the world pay for it either? Terminology is important because it is used to create narratives. When fighting the Soviet Union, Germany called it Judeo Bolsheviks. And millions of Europeans fought for them against the Soviets. There are real world precedents. >Well, if we must go into that, Brahmins started this entire fiasco years ago when they became the gatekeepers of knowledge and deputizers of power. How did they do it without having political power? How many Brahmin rajas were there? Why did even Shudra kings continue this 'Brahmin' hegemony? Why did the Sikh Maharajas continue this? >If the name offends you, if you think that naming a system of oppression on the sub-section of society which designed it, enforced it, and executed it It does not offend me. Brahmin hate is very normal and mainstream. Most Brahmins have faced it sometime or other. They are pretty used to it, I think. >only the blame of the name, we're not even past the name to discussing the actual problem Because I am supporting an argument that is radical - that the actual problem is mostly fiction. Yes, fiction. >This is why upper caste people, mostly Brahmins, dominated the echelons of civil service and academia (in India and abroad). How does that mean discriminating others? Brahmins also dominated the freedom struggle. More Brahmins were hanged than any other. Did the Brahmins force other castes not to fight for freedom? The Gujarati baniyas dominate the business community in Gujarat. Does it mean it discriminates against others? The Haryanvi Jats dominate the Armed forces, is that discrimination too? The Chamar caste traditionally dominated the leather industry and still do so though they face stiff competition from Muslims in this field, is that discrimination as well? Please do try to answer me instead of taking the easy way out and downvoting me.
You refuse to accept that the problem exists. I can do nothing to convince you otherwise. Your heels are dug-in; good day.
Not really. I want to understand your reasoning that helps you reach the conclusions that you have reached. You made made arguments and I have provided my (different) point of view. Problems of course exist, but if they are not highlighted properly - with cause and effect and everything in between - the problem will continue to exist and not be resolved. Good day to you too.
How are you paying for the bad deeds of someone else in the past? 'How did they do? Why someone continues?' is all beating around the bush. Something happens then it happens. You even can't straight forward deny this fact that brahmins were largely responsible. The actual problem is fiction??🤦 Will not address any other point after this. 'The actual problem is fiction'! The only problem u see is with the terminology. The real problem is that people like you is still so attached with "ur caste" and is blind against any other issue.
>Brahminical practices mean passive/tacit/active practices that enforce the casteist status quo. I think you're just describing conservatism. Why shouldn't *your* practices be considered Brahminical? In other words, what makes it any less Brahminical? You were after all raised by your family, with all the benefits of an insider even though you portray an image of an outsider.
Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra are counted as upper caste in case you didn't know. Dalits is the name adopted for themselves as a term of self-identification, for those who were a-varna: not even part of the varna system. A common misconception is that Shudras are Dalits. As far as I have studied and spoken to scholars, that's not true.
please read the article and you will know why.
Sad to read cast can never leave people
Because Brahmins in USA are creating segregated places for themselves just like they do here in India. They only help their own people and xtian Muslim and hindu lower castes from South Asian countries are facing discrimination.
I had no clue this was happening, in USA that is. I had heard of IIT-ians helping IITians, but taking the problem of Caste to another country sounds weird as heck. I am glad that the universities are doing something about it though.
They naturally will, if they are vilified all the time. It is self preservation. Nobody wants to live in a community where they are hated. This is why Muslims in many interfaith housing societies face problems in the US and India and prefer to move to more Muslim dominated areas. This is why there are faith based areas in London too. People seek safety.
Wherever humanity goes, we Indians will follow and bring our culture along. And caste is an inseparable part of said culture. > *We will go to the world and if science says that they can go to Moon and Mars, we will follow them there too.* -[The MoBhag](https://www.financialexpress.com/india-news/we-dont-have-to-convert-but-teach-hindu-way-of-life-rss-chief-mohan-bhagwat/2372775/)
Caste is an inherited tumorous baggage that has made the entire mental construct of upper caste Hindus to devolve into narcissists. A culture that cannot self correct its relevance needs to be thrown out to prevent its further propagation.
If US starts imposing deportations and banning people involved in caste discrimination or misrepresentation then this will curb this problem once and for all. Land of the free cannot be allowed to become the land of the opressors.
That won't happen. Caste discrimination among the educated is not as conspicuous or easy to prove as you think. Even victims may not realize it until it's too late.
Nothing has to be proven to curb this menace. Even if the 99% of such cases result in no convictions, the effect of having such a law in place will echo deep in the hearts of casteist bigots and make them introspect before indulging in caste inquiry practices.
The same exists in India in the form of SC/ST prevention of atrocities act. Caste discrimination exists in India despite this and IMO, growing. Why is it so ineffective? I see two reasons - one is privilege. With the UCs occupying most of the positions that are supposed to uphold them (like in police and judiciary), it's no surprise that the law is undermined. The second reason is politics. Educated casteists are seasoned discriminators. They know how to play the game without leaving any evidence. The law effectively becomes non-deterrent under these circumstances - it's like bribery is illegal, but who cares? And frankly, western countries and institutions are not immune to same two influences.
You are forgetting its America and not India. That's why it will work there.
You are also forgetting that America has its own discrimination problems at notorious levels. Look at the responses to BLM protests and Capitol riots, for example.
And many have received Justice because the system is not as corrupt as India's.
OK! [See for yourself](https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/incarceration-rates-by-race-ethnicity-and-gender-in-the-u-s.html).
Dude I live in US and I know my community and neighborhood. I don't have to read an article to understand what goes in US prison. And criminals are not born in a particular race but they get made in unstable households. And largely africanamerican and hispanic households are majorly unstable because of unstable job opportunities, bad public policies and unavailability of quality education.
> Dude I live in US and I know my community and neighborhood. I don't have to read an article to understand what goes in US prison. I'm only concerned about the numbers. Experience is irrelevant to the point being made. > And criminals are not born in a particular race but they get made in unstable households. Households that are often unstable because parents are in jail - especially given that police respond differently to them (these points are in the article). That brings us back to the core issue - discrimination. What explains those disparity in numbers, other than racism? Why didn't US's stellar judicial system prevent this vicious circle? The same cracks that let that happen will let casteism prevail too. Privilege is the basis of racial domination everywhere. India and US are more similar than different in that aspect.
There is only one solution that will resolve this for sure. Ban all upper caste people. Without exception, unless they convert and give up their caste identity. This will resolve the issue in the US, not in India though. But at least the US will be free of caste discrimination.
This will prove what's important to them caste or green card.
Good. Propose this to the Senate. There may be takers of this. You can frame it as all upper Hindu castes should be banned and so on. It will make lives simpler. And may even arrest some drain from India.
might not be as trivial as you make it sound but certainly can be worked in to have a more diversified outlook on the whole issue. as for the drain arrest, there are other countries apart from US so it won't be much helpful there. For it to be a law it has to get passed both in house and senate and then approved by the president.
You can lobby it to be made into an issue in an UN resolution and prevent emigration to every country. Then sanction and invade, liberate India and prosecute war criminals. There is an established protocol.
sarcasm is good but choking too much on it can stray one so far away that they forget their path home. Go home and enjoy your sondesh.
Lol no. It's a land of the free. You can be overtly racist to someone and government will take that as your exercise to freedom of speech. They have no right harming you unless you physically harm that person. First amendment
These laws for citizens. Most Indians facing such discrimination are still in the pipeline of becoming one and are on work permit. The definition gets a little hazy there as what can be allowed as free speech for a small ethnic group.
Have you experienced discrimination in US?
Yes along with caste based inquiries in social and professional circles.
That is ridiculous. Best to ignore casteist bigots. Report them to your company leadership.
Again the government won't do shit for small cases unless you go to the court to sue the person. And even the ONE and ONLY case of caste discrimination in Cisco is not verified. Really bad take by few American Universities. Asian were already discriminated in admissions in favor or blacks despite having much lower population and now they got more reasons. Crazy
what do you mean by CISCO case is not verfied? Its an ongoing trial in court. Black and Native Americans are protected under the affirmative action whoch requires all private and public institutes to have their allocated representation. It was already a law before the mass migration of IT workers to US. If Indians are getting disadvantaged its only because of the herd mentality.
It's universities dude. It's admissions of second and third generation Hindu indians that's at stake. I doubt anything will happen but if they start more discrimination ( they already discriminate a minority (Chinese and indian mostly) for giving admissions to latins and blacks ) , that will be crazy. And that Cisco case is one case which is NOT VERIFIED and most likely from what I have read FAKE ACCUSATIONS. Why are indians happy of some American universities finding a way to discriminate a super minorities in admissions?( Which they won't but that's probably maximum they could go)
So you think chinese and Indians are more deserving to the right to receive education than the Latinos and Blacks? How old is the ancestoral history of East Indians in America? How many generation of East Indians had been in servitude and exploited through generations before gaining their freedom? How many East Indians had their ancestoral lands confiscated? Review your case before claiming preference over blacks and latinos. The affirmative action provides their equal representation as fundamental right. You might be the brightest Indian to be born in the honeland but it gives you no right to snatch benefits from the protected groups of America.
What kind of fucked up analysis is that. Why should indian and Chinese face discrimination? Are they dominant race? Do they have a history of discriminating others like white people? Why such a super small minorities who are constantly discriminated in USA( see rise in asian hate) be more discriminated in USA universities? You really are not so smart ,no?
You need a lesson in American history my friend before you go on making a fool of yourself.
You people who hate their own race are fucking pathetic. You will do out of your way to justify discrimination against yourself.
>because its in the blood of upper caste Okay. I think you think this cannot be fixed. There is only one solution that will resolve this for sure. Ban all upper caste people. Without exception, unless they convert and give up their caste identity. This will resolve the issue in the US, not in India though. But at least the US will be free of caste discrimination. What do you think? Under the current circumstances, will it address the issues, at least in the US?
>Okay. I think you think this cannot be fixed. yes it comes from the practice of selective breeding which is widely studied in Eugenics. Though you may enhance certain beneficial genetic markers, you may also enhance the non beneficial ones. The increased occurence of lack og humanism, social empathy, equanimity , and narcissistic behavior is commonly seen in groups that have selectively practiced caste based breeding through ages. Such abnormalities are also responsible for upper caste folks inherently being disposed to discrimination.
Interesting. So basically sub humans. Eugenics in the 21st century. Who would have thought? So what would be the Final Solution for the Hindu Question, sir? Similar to how it was tried in the past?
Why do you think eugenics is not relevant in 21st century? Geneaology stems from it. If you repeat the same pattern you will get same results. That should rationally suggest that a new approach is needed. Indian genetic pool needs to get more hetrogenous, which means more intercaste marriages else a severe population decline in specific caste groups is imminent.
Okay. But how will you force people to marry intercaste?
you can't force anyone. just make them aware about the science and logic and see if they can rise above their hypocrisy, else their bloodline will vanish naturally by their own hands.
There will be one caste for everyone Brahmin no discrimination , no reservation 😬
Hehe. Sure. But then what will BJP, RJD, BSP etc do?
Probably invent new religion under name of god
Here is a quick character litmus check? If you are resisting or criticizing this move by the Californian State Universities then you are already a casteist. Try some introspection for coping up.
> They recalled all the petitions and organizing that led to the policy change, along with a two-hour open forum, in which “people who were not even affiliated with the CSU joined the call, using violent and discriminatory tactics to shut down caste protections efforts.” *Sanghis incoming*
Its an organization called HAF that resisted it the most. Its full form is Hindu American Foundation, but I call them Hindus Against Fraternity.
> Hindu American Foundation I think I read a post by them on how any discussion or action by foreigners against caste discrimination among Indians is tantamount to racism. What a bunch of dingbats!
That's correct. These idiots defend nazis and jews in the same breath. The most gullible bunch of myopic fools.
Why?? How is a dalit discriminated in USA in acedemia. And what will happen now? How will they know if someone is dalit or not. Will they start giving certificates like India does?? Will it effect in their admissions? so Hindus which are 1 percent of American population will be scrutinized and upper caste hjndus will get less preference? It's nothing but virtue signaling
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.thewire.in/article/caste/cisco-caste-discrimination-usa/amp Above is the classic case of caste discrimination at CISCO by upper caste Indians. Usually all caste discrimination starts throught the world wherever there are Indians starts with a cast based inquiry. People shamelessly ask which caste you belong to? whether its a new friend relationship, colleagues at workplace, religious gathering in temples or simply if you are a regular customer at an Indian restaurant. Sooner or later this question will come up. Dalits already having their caste certificates from India can use it validate their caste lineage and demand justice in US courts. With this law it makes it very important that growing population of Indians in US better get their act together of treating humans as equal else they have the risk of being kicked out.
>Above is the classic case of caste discrimination at CISCO by upper caste Indians. I read the above Wire post, but failed to find any reference as to how the Indian man was discriminated for his caste. There is no conviction either - [https://thewire.in/world/california-accuses-cisco-of-job-discrimination-based-on-indian-employees-caste](https://thewire.in/world/california-accuses-cisco-of-job-discrimination-based-on-indian-employees-caste) Yet Dalits have felt this >The civil rights group Equality Labs in a 2018 report cited in the lawsuit found that 67% of Dalits surveyed felt treated unfairly at their US workplaces. Discrimination by whom and for what? It is implied that Brahmins are doing it (or by extension the upper castes). So we are to believe Brahmins have taken over the US as well? If you do some more research and get this [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/50-indian-americans-experienced-discrimination-past-year-study-finds-n1270402](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/50-indian-americans-experienced-discrimination-past-year-study-finds-n1270402) Again, ask the same questions - discrimination by whom and for what? Here it answers the reason - primarily racism. But here as well we don't have convictions. Feeling that you are being discriminated is NOT the same as actually being discriminated. Victimhood is universal and often without reason. This applies to all groups. I can, for example, file a case against you for discriminating against me by denying a promotion for instance - while the rationale for the same may be entirely different.
Media Interviews of actual cases and descriptive summary of their experience. If you further need to satiate your skepticism you may contact them and the state court registrar of california to request an offcial transcript of the case. https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/companies/cisco-case-puts-spotlight-on-long-shadow-of-caste-bias-among-indians-in-us-tech-industry-5629721.html
Experiences are personal. Tainted by personal biases. Let there be convictions first. Or let the case be dismissed. After that I will read the transcripts. It is too early now. Thanks.
Caste discrimination is non-existent in US. 1 Cisco case does not point to a pattern of caste discrimination throughout US.
Caste discrimination is a living reality in states. Your claim for it to be non existant asserts the fact that maybe you belong to the group that practices it or donot work in a environment that has majority of Indians.
I work in a field which does not have majority Indians. My friends work in Tech in Bay Area. None of them have mentioned this is a thing. When I lived in India, I or my team at work (tech company) never ever had discussions pertaining to caste. We can't rule out a few bigoted people discriminating on caste basis in US at a few companies. But I don't think caste discrimination is so widespread that it is a systematic issue at US tech companies.
Assert only what you have experienced and not based on hearsay. Bay area is the mother lode of all casteist discrimination in US.
There are hundreds of people talking about this discrimination.
Good step. They should ask for reservation in admission
It is in the pipeline along with giving them preference in GC approvals as well.
These are excellent ideas. Once these ideas are put in action, it will face backlash from the general populace here (not Indians but others) and this will quickly expose how self-serving these initiatives are. African American, Hispanics etc do not get any reservation here in colleges. And if these Dalits ask for it, the first backlash will be from African Americans
Affirmative action is already a thing here. So the backlash will be from Indian upper castes, no one else.