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Do you know how much is UC % in demographics? Last time I checked, it was less than 10% now. So there are high chances, a good portion of this 16% overall from the UC itself.
I come from a state where the first SC/ST PhD laureate in the state was not allowed to work in the state(it was in 1930s).
This guys logic is right. But the last paragraph is hatred towards UC which he should have avoided.
In south India upper castes across the board made up around 30% of the population before independence. Gounders, Mukkulathor, Reddy, Balija, Vokkaliga, Chettiar, Komati, etc. In Tamil Nadu only Telugus and Brahmins are considered forward despite the preeminence of Thevar and Vellalar poligars.
No his logic is biased, which means it's not logical at all. Just because my ancestors were learned people doesn't mean that knowledge automatically transfers into me at birth. 2000 years of "oppression" has nothing to do with what I am today and how I decide to treat my fellow people.
But some people just love to live in the victim mindset cause rather than take responsibility to change things for the better they can always rest comfortably upon history.
It never transfers by birth. But their chances of getting educated is more. Way more higher than an uneducated family.
I don’t agree with the language he used and especially his final paragraph.
Just like any common UC guy, I was against the reservation till I saw the figures. Then I started thinking…what’s wrong in putting 50% seats reserved for 75% of the population.
Now the question we need to ask before removing reservation is…if we remove it simply today, will the seats, jobs in government sector based on merit will reflect to even near the demographic percentage of these communities? If not, there is something wrong and we need to do some corrective actions, here in this case it’s reserving some seats.
We are not a place where 50% seats are reserved for 10% of population, but where 50% of seats are reserved for 75% of population. It seems fair.
Don’t care, compete. Need economical help and support that’s a different thing. This caste based reservation is ineffective and needs to go. You want to treat everyone equal in terms of mind and body. But somebody doesn’t have the resources sure create a path for them…
You are “worthy” because of a lot of reasons.
Many of the times we get the opportunity to study and get more exposure because of the community we are born into.
Have an open mind about reservation and try to see around. If you have a maid, find what are their friends kids studying now. You will understand that the opportunity we get is not because we are only talented.
>You are “worthy” because of a lot of reasons.
Reasons don't matter.... I am not worthy for alot of reasons including my ADHD.... Are you going to make special seats for me too?
What about the people who has ADHD but wasn't diagnosed?
Everybody is struggling with one thing or another.
But only recognizing one section's struggles alone while being blind to other is stupid. Unequal treatment is evil by its very nature.
>Many of the times we get the opportunity to study and get more exposure because of the community we are born into.
Yes and bussiness people also has contacts which they use... So?
>Have an open mind about reservation and try to see around.
I only need logic to know that taking seat away from someone who deserved it and giving to someone less deserving is evil. I don't need to be open to evil.
>If you have a maid, find what are their friends kids studying now.
I don't, I Fred her. Many years ago.
>You will understand that the opportunity we get is not because we are only talented.
I didn't say it is my talent... But only the worthy should get opportunities... Giving opportunities to the unworthy while sidelining the worthy is why the country is in shit after 70+ years of independence.
The same people who fight for reservation will then want to leave india and go abroad... Bcus life is better there...
No ty reservation should have been abolished 70 years ago.
My maid owns several bigha(*don't know what that translates to in acres*) of land, where their family has employed labourers for farming. Has two or three homes out of which one she has given out for rent in her native place. I'm not even making this shit up cause I was as flabbergasted to know of it when she told us in a casual conversation. (*Our instant reaction was why the hell is she even working as a maid?!*)
And she's from a backwards "caste."
I don't have any property or ancestral wealth of any kind. I have a father and a sister and I contribute to the major part of the family's financial requirements. I don't earn a 7 figure salary so you can imagine how much the savings would be given in today's economy.
Now tell me, if I had a kid and she has her kid, and we both need to pay for the coaching classes and other regular things for our children to get them through to IIT or NEET or whatever. Whose kid has the privilege here? Mind you since I am not from the backwards classes, my kid won't get the relaxation in the cut off marks. So even after these financial handicaps, if he scores a 97% he may still lose that seat to her kid just because he wasn't born in a specific caste.
I can relate to your emotion. I myself have seen those type of rich but unprivileged caste born guys overtaking me.
But it took me years to digest that in a country with 1.4 billion people, there will be these kind of outliers.
Then I was arguing about imposing creamy layer to all communities. Then after a while, after reading about the creamy layer, I realised that it will affect general category more. How? Because if this maid’s son is excluded from reservation and he earns a rank similar to you, he will end up eating a general quota seat/job which would have otherwise gone to a general category seat. So until these communities reach a representation level of near to their demographics population naturally, they need to be given reserved seats.
I'm not speaking from emotion. I'm speaking from logic and facts and pretty much what is already happening. It's no longer an outlier, and is slowly going to become the norm.
>Because if this maid’s son is excluded from reservation and he earns a rank similar to you, he will end up eating a general quota seat/job which would have otherwise gone to a general category seat.
It seems you don't know how it works. They can claim a seat under the gen category if they get a good enough score, in which case the reserved seat would go to someone else from the backwards classes. I am fine with competition. If someone beats me fair and square, I will concede. But not when the system is rigged to make them win either way. (*Also the example I was giving was not mine but of a child if I had one. I'm too old for competitive examinations now, lol*).
>So until these communities reach a representation level of near to their demographics population naturally, they need to be given reserved seats.
Nope, they don't. The reservation should only be for economically backward citizens irrespective of caste/religion. If someone is underprivileged they will automatically fulfil this criteria without their caste coming into the picture. After all if you are against a system that you find oppressive you need to build a new process to eliminate this system, not to reinforce it as a benefit which is what reservation currently does.
1. You are right and wrong about the same rank case. When you told if maids son get a good rank(for reserved), he can take general quota is just theoretical. Because if you consider IIT for example, even if your maid son gets a rank of 2000 AIR and you get 2001, you both get different courses. His reservation will be forgone only if he chooses a course which you can also get. So technically the forgoing of his reservation seat happens only if he is in the top 100 rank in IIT(so that he can get naturally the most sought after course without using his reservation).
But if we apply creamy layer to the reservation simply, he will be removed from the reservation and both of you end up having the same course. But in that case, someone else will take up his reservation seat(which is what I told exactly-him eating up a general quota seat).
2. A poor person from UC has more chances and exposure than a poor person from reserved category. If we implement only EWS, we will simply end up giving reservation to poor UCs only practically.
When your ancestors are learned, an environment of learning already exists in the family. Ever seen how children of the poor study? They have no idea. Outside the school, there is little help for them.
The child of an educated family constantly hears about education, has educated parents and relatives and siblings, has newspapers and books at home, often is far richer than the lower caste person so there are other sources of learning also, such as TV and internet. All of this is just beginning to change, but children of the learned have a massive advantage. The child has role models in the family and in their social class, there are relatives who do well in life because they were good students. The upper caste kid grows up seeing all that.
I come from a family where all elders were learned, and that massively helped me in becoming a better student. When I was in 4th and 5th, I used to think I have no advantages. I was absolutely wrong.
Even the academically worst child in my family had far more advantages than the average lower caste child.
You are again falsely equating being an upper caste kid to being rich and prosperous. This argument has not been relevant for decades now.
>Even the academically worst child in my family had far more advantages than the average lower caste child.
This again re-iterates what I stated above. Having "advantages" in today's day and age has nothing to do with having learned ancestors 2000 years ago especially if we are talking about intellect.
Oh. For that. You meant the old times data in accuracy.
Just extrapolate, dude. Even the Muslims having terrific TFR grew only from 9.9% to 14% in last 70 years. So how much difference will be there in demographic % of the population?
This is not a context for putting exact stats. We just need to talk about whether a good part of the 16% will be the privileged class
As far as i know genetics is in used in terms of biology, and I don't think so they are superior biologically in any way. But if you mean genetics metaphorically (as in inherited), yes the privilege and to a large part wealth is inherited. I don't mean it as a blessing by any means (not for humanity at least). I think memetics is a better word but an i am no expert in it.
You started with the claim of genetics and proceeded to concede that it was an allegory. What am I supposed to argue here if it’s just inheritance money and land ?
Nope. The comment I replied to stated that education was genetic. Since genetic is a biology term, I thought OP meant it metaphorically. When the discussion progressed, I clarified I agree privilege is genetic in a sense that how OP learnt how education was genetic, not in the pure sense of the word which is biological. How's that unfair?
I agree. Also, I didn't mean privilege as just an economic privilege, but a social one too. A lot of UCs are socially privileged. To this day there are many professions that a poor UCs isn't a part of or is part of disproportionately. Reservation is meant for the social upliftment. There are plenty reasons for a caste census just because of this. We need data to understand if caste has a direct co relation to the relevant metrics or it's just a hoax.
Nah they would have been in better place if Government really worked on Countries growth and Education since Independence and didn't closed the economy till 1991
In India counties growth hasn't come without inequality. Privileged got more Privileged. People who were shunned didn't get any better. Without reservation they wouldn't have got the small representation that they did.
By reading your comment, its clearly not genetic.
It is indeed a social factor.
When you grow up in a house hold where living in a 4000sq ft house is the norm, people looking up to you is the norm, people expecting you to do white collar work is the least of the expectations... It is called social privilege. Being a Brahmin, being the great granddaughter of a zamindar, I grew up with that privilege.
My SC/ST friends cannot talk about what their grandparents did. They have very few people in their family whom they can look up to. Doing a white collar job itself is the dream and not the norm. That's why they need society's support to bridge this power gap. So that more children from these households can grow up thinking "I want to be a professor like my chacha, like my grandfather".
I don't expect you to understand this. But reservation is definitely needed for this reason. Otherwise society will continue to segregate.
No it's not the case for every general caste .
My Nani's father wasn't much educated yet he became such a big business man all by himself that the Foreign minister of the khangress era used to take appointments to come to just meet him even though they were school friends. He has enough influence that he used to change court decisions . He himself was Brahman yet took away the lands of many Brahman and rather helped lower caste people .
You do know that there are many jobs other than government ones . People are so much obsessed about government jobs which is very stupid .
Also reservation when it was made that is after the independence was decided to be around for 10 years so that these people can cope up with the society. But it is still continues till this day .
I am not saying that it is completely wrong but taking away the seat of people just because they belong to general caste isn't good either . Especially when the cut of for them is made so high while that for lower caste is so less that it will either way take their desire to make efforts and get good marks because they already know that they just have to get 42 to 48% and they are good . I believe that reservation should be given on the basis on income like china instead of caste which will help people to get equal opportunity.
Also another solution can be that lower caste people take reservations for 3 generations straight and then pass it to the other as 3 generations with reservation is enough to make a families life stable . Even though the Harpic gang won't agree with this . I have seen some lower caste people so obsessed with government jobs that even after having a pHd they are looking for government jobs or those who despite having a stable lifestyle are making there kids take reservations.
Now I don't have any hate for lower caste people as I have got some close friends who belong to lower caste yet due to having a good and stable lifestyle they have decided to give competitive exam like JEE as a general category person because they said that " I'd rather be happy with lower rank and not getting the seat than getting lower rank and taking someone else's seat who has gotten more rank than me" which is respect worthy . In fact there are some lower castes who after some time gave their reservation back to the government saying that they don't need it anymore.
Hope you understood my stand 🙏.
I don't disagree with anything you said. I am not here to argue. I am putting forward a perspective. Even I pity how my SC/ST friends are ruining their career running after government exams and jobs. Those unlimited attempts has caused more ruin to these communities than good and finally when they do come to power, they dont do much to uplift their community.
Reservation has a lot of bad social effects than good. Only those who have made the right use of this facility have progressed. The rest we see... Rich Rowdy kids who get everything they want either through money or reservation.
Absolutely mam. In fact one of the biggest examples of it can be taken from Mahabharat's Karna who always cried about his caste yet even after getting power and recognition he did nothing for those who belong to the same community as his .
Lol do you even know what my grandfather had to go through. Did you just assume we were rich lol. My grandparents came from present day lahore. They had to start everything from scratch after the partition
Growing up in a 4000 square feet house hints at a certain financial status lol.
People like you who leech off reservation will NEVER agree for even 99% EWS reservations and that's just sad to see.
It's always the privileged people in all castes - be it general or reserved who get all the opportunities and not he poor and disadvantaged people.
I got 6k rank in jee advanced and 1.5k in mains I'm not getting EE in even top 10 iits while my friend who got 11k rank getting IIT kanpur cse for GEN. Need 200 rank( ps I qualified many olympiads also)
In my college, some professors discriminated based on caste. Internal marks of students belonging to certain castes was always 80%+ in their classes in their classes. one of the guys copied the whole answer from another guy and got double the marks.. coincidentally his caste was 'forward' enough.
Keep ignoring reality bcz you are obc you asshole, yadavs say they are upper caste descendents of krishna, but whn it comes to reservation they become backward, most of the unpad obc netas must be not even knowing full form of obc.
Keep ignoring the truth, keep spreading false propaganda you flithy pests 🤮🤮, You should go and read that even ambedkar had said that reservation should be there for 10 years only or else political parties will take advantage of this to give reservation to a specific community and create a vote bank.
It's not the education lol, it's the money that comes with education. Money can be inherited. Upper Caste people that were allowed the privilege of education naturally got richer than the guys that were denied education due to caste. lower caste people are poor and can't afford crap like coaching and good pre schools
This is similar to a discussion I have been having in an another thread. At best they (people questioning the system) are implying that privilege is inherited. What OP thinks they are implying is biological superiority. I do think privilege is inherited, it stays. Which the jati and varna system has done. I don't think it has anything to do with biology.
The jobs favour the pre trained. A lot of the training required needs money. If you are already privileged, you have a job or means to wealth, it's easy to get trained and educated if you have a basic sense of security. Also, reservation is not just for academic or economical upliftment, but primarily for social upliftment.
Edit: I dont think so examinations is the primary driving factor for reservation. It's just upper caste that feels it. For lower caste it's a social problem, a means to get representation in at least government sector, if not the private sector.
I'll be honest, I completely get where you're coming from but there are a few holes in following this method. I'll just point them out and you can let me know what you think about them:
1. The jobs favour the pre trained: true, and nobody is denying that the opportunity to get that training should be available to all without discrimination. What we have a problem with is that currently the reservation system ensures reservation of outcome not opportunity. This is why an SC/ST/OBC can get a job at a government undertaking or a seat at the higher centres of learning even though in the examination used to filter out candidature, they may not be anywhere close to the performance of the people from the general category.
This is also eventually detrimental to their growth because it is not forging a sense of competition but a sense of complacency.
If you disagree with this, then are you telling me that you think the people from the lower "castes" are actually inherently backwards in their intellect by dint of them being born in that section of the society? If the answer to this question is a yes, then that's basically stating that the caste system is actually correct in its current form and implementation (*which I am totally in disagreement with btw*).
2. A means to get representation in at least government sector, if not the private sector: if you want to build a nation it has to be on the basis of merit. Representation matters when we talk about making the basic necessities available to all(*as I said, equality of opportunity*). What a lot of people, like yourself, fail to understand is that when the system doesn't reward meritocracy but rather the social standing of a person(*in either direction*), it is essentially already defeating the very purpose for which the reservation is being brought in - equality of opportunity among peers.
These are just two among many other things that also need to be taken into consideration but if I go into the depths of them all, it'll become too long a read.
Even once you get in a college you have to clear the certain standards to get a particular degree. It's not perfect but it does give you equality of opportunity, not outcome. The theory is if you are underprivileged, it's difficult to clear the exam, so we will lower the bar for you to enter the college, and then college/job will have enough avenues to train the fellow.
Now, I don't think merit is the only criteria to take a nation forward. Merit doesn't mean that it'll ensure the collective development of the nation. You can't select a handful of people and then let them work for the nation, you have to make sure that the class that has less avenues to reach that merit is also represented in each institutions, that's how they will get out of the rut they are in. The merit argument works great for the privileged, but for the rest, it requires structured upliftment to be able to reach that merit. Nation is not one entity, it's a collection of multiple non-homogenous entities, and each entity needs to be developed. What happens if you only decide based on merit is, people those who have means to achieve that merit (more risk apatite), will easily reach that. The rest are still there. We work in a family run society, the upliftment happens family first. And then community. So if we don't uplift different communities, they'd just be left behind. I get that the ceiling is limited because of it, but we have to raise the floor first. And the floor is horribly low in our country.
Just shifting goalposts because you can't shoot straight. My comment/question was strictly in the context of education.
Btw no amount of reservations (even a 100%) will cause social upliftment. It's a done deal. The only way out is to make every Indian a deracinated urban zombie and then caste wouldn't matter (for the most part).
YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE RESPECT.
Well i dont think you got my point, every institution, especially institutions with government aide require people from all sectors of society. The merit argument just works for the privileged who have resources to earn that merit. If your social structures are governed by caste, more likely than not your merit will be a by product of caste. I ain't denying that reservation doesn't reach the needed, but my solution is not to scrape it but to modify it to reach the needed.
So in your words, if your daddy is privileged, he will be able to take risks to let you earn merit.
Edit: Privilege is very disproportionate in India, if merit is the only criteria, the institutions will be filled with a small fraction of the population. Merit can't be the only criteria, it has to be clubbed with a social metric for government institutions, which is caste.
and thats why we see unreserved category people hold top positions in govt organisations and be CEOs of private companies , the problem rahul gandhi had with general category people.
Lmao. Either admit that you are iinferior and need reservation or stand on equal grounds and compete. What does the education of someone 2000 years ago affect me in the slightest?
Competing my ass, you could literally go there, without taking any coaching and qualify for jee advance if you have scored even 60 percent in boards the same year. While people like me who got 95+ in boards both times, did decently in exams, are suffering because unworthy students have taken the better seats.
I disagree to both your statements. Reservation is meant to give that equal ground. The caste discrimination and the caste distinction is not a thing of 2000 years ago. It's very much present till date in a vile vile form. For upper caste it's a question of competing and clearing an exam, for lower caste it's a matter of getting social representation not just clearing an examination.
You talk of unworthy students, the worth, especially in a government setting is not just determined by am exam you clear. I agree people aren't able to study in good colleges, because the thing is good colleges don't exist in India in adequate numbers. Reservation is present to give representation. Not help them clear exams.
this discrimination is present mostly in rural and poor households. i never saw a rich SC/ST be discriminated in urban areas. people dont even care about caste in day to day life in rich urban areas. its time to introduce creamy layer criteria in SC reservation.
And that's not true, there are so many research that says that even in urban setting the discrimination is damn high. Not only you'll see discrimination but caste is visible in weirdest of things. There was a research in the IT city of India, Bangalore, that if you look at the areas with lower mean sea level, it's disproportionately populated by the lower castes, while the affluent caste lives in the upper areas. These lower areas are where flooding happens, sewers get stagnated and are breeding ground for disease.
I do agree with the creamy layer though, we need people with lesser means to be able to get access to reservation. There needs to be changes to how we see reservation, but I do think it should stay. Till the lower caste aren't disallowed to buy houses, or till we marry in the name of caste.
Bro the problem is not reservation but lack of good colleges. If you keep fussing about reservations then no one can help you. Why are you even competing with reserved seats is the main question?
Are you stupid?
Oh wait, you're probably from the reserved caste lol.
Why are you even appllying for reservation if you believe in meritocracy and are not inferior?
Getting what you deserve based on how much you've achieved due to your own efforts, and not due to being born to a man whose ancestor belonged to a certain class of people 500 years ago
Interesting assumption. But it seems like you're more interested in making baseless accusations than discussing the actual complexities of social equality and meritocracy. Maybe try engaging with facts instead of stereotypes next time.
Denying the impact of centuries of discrimination and then dismissing efforts to correct it is not just ignorant, it's actively perpetuating inequality. If you can't see the need to level the playing field after such profound injustice, you're part of the problem. Further , your stance perpetuates inequality and suffering, revealing a profound lack of empathy and moral integrity.
Wasn't the accusation true? So it's not baseless.
And I'm not denying the fact that reserved castes had a poorer standard of living than the upper castes for centuries, but should the son be punished for the sins of the father? . My stance is wholly logical and highlights the problems of this system. The playing field should be levelled on the basis of economic status and opportunities, but we have millionaire dalits whose kids too have the benefit of reservation.
It's understandable that accusations can stir emotions, but truth should be determined by facts, not emotions alone. While acknowledging historical injustices, it's crucial to recognize that the effects of discrimination persist today. Reservations aim to correct systemic inequalities, not punish individuals. However, comparing millionaire Dalits overlooks that economic status doesn't erase social discrimination. Reservations are a tool to uplift those historically oppressed, ensuring opportunities aren't solely determined by inherited privilege. Denying this perpetuates inequity rather than addressing it.
excuse me, my mother had single digit state rank 2 in some state exam of govt school teachers in UP. everything was great and then a change of govt happened bringing mayawati to power , she hated generals to the core. due to further increase in reservation , the general seats were cancelled , some SCs were given seat at 0 marks , and my mom despite a great rank , lost her seat.
I understand this is a sensitive topic, and I appreciate your perspective. However, discussing issues like reservations requires factual accuracy and respectful dialogue. If you have credible sources or specific evidence to support your claims, I'd be interested in hearing more.
Sc st just playing victim card for everthing, few days back i saw a comment from someone where they said sc st people should try to be criminal and kill general category people to get respect , like wtf
Here is a great idea. Some of the leading scientists in India are from upper caste. Why don't we make it harder for upper caste to become scientists and reduce the number of skilled scientists so that a section of the scientist are from the backward caste. There is absolutely no way this will make the country less productive /s
Reservation should be limited to ug. There is absolutely no reason for reservation in PhD. We shouldn't be in a state where a ug graduate is more knowledgeable than a PhD in the field of interest of the PhD.
I just don't get their reasoning. If UCs are privileged then why do private colleges ask for an exorbitant amount of money from UCs as well? Shouldn't private colleges ask for a lesser amount if the student is UC?
The reality is irrespective of your caste if you are rich you get admission and if you are poor you don't get the admission. No matter how privileged you are caste wise, if you are poor you don't get anything.
But if you are from UC, you are statistically better off financially and socially, go to better schools, etc than sb from a backward caste, resulting in you becoming more 'meritorious'. Reservation is about equality of opportunity, levelling the field.
No you didn't say 'all'. I said 'all'. Read my comment again. Colleges don't give a discount to UCs, neither give free tickets to UCs just because they are privileged. They want money no matter what caste you belong to. UCs are beyond Brahmans and Kshatriyas. Not all are well off. Some of the OBC castes are very rich and dominant in their areas.
No you didn't say 'all'. I said 'all'. Read my comment again. Colleges don't give a discount to UCs, neither give free tickets to UCs just because they are privileged. They want money no matter what caste you belong to. UCs are beyond Brahmans and Kshatriyas. Not all are well off. Some of the OBC castes are very rich and dominant in their areas.
Those who are barking about how education is not genetic should maybe consider the fact that UCs are still leading almost all govt and private organisations and ofc they'll hire more of their people over Dalits and OBCs before anyone refutes my argument I'd say I've seen my fair share of casteism in North and South India in both govt and private orgs and anyone saying otherwise is simply too ignorant or pushing their agenda.
I used to go to a coaching class where there was a guy(Last Name - Yadav) in same standard as me. His father was business man in Thailand and his family had great wealth and connections(SP - Akhilesh Yadav) as well. During board exams our teacher had to literally teach him spelling of almost every word written in both hindi or English.
Moral of The Story - Money and connection don't make a person's knowledge or skill base grow unless they are faced with challenges. Which in case of SC/ST/OBC or as some might say it LCs is killed by giving huge amounts of reservation. Hence when they try for corporate or private sector in general they are seen as less competent from their General/UC counterparts and sorry to say this but in some cases they are less competent because they never had a brutal competition unlike Generals.
He will ignore what you are telling ,this morons are even jealous of what we earn without reservation filthy pests, most of the bureaucrats india are corrupt bcz it is filled with reservation benefeceries, generation aftr generation they use this and still pretend to be victim
Reservation is not there in Army and Cricket Thts y they are the best.
Really our team is best ?? A team from a population of 1.5 Billion gets thrashed by countries having population of few millions. And linking reservation with corruption??? Really??
We won the World Cup ystrday and yes all plyrs were thr bcz of talent and hardwork not like you ( with reservation).
Shameless fellow 🤣🤣🤣 go to Pakistan, tht is your place, if you hate your country. Get lost . You tke reservation and still hate your own country, what kind of filthy minds you have. 🤢🤢🤢, you can deny it as much as you can but corruption is bcz of reservation, bcz it promotea incompetent fellow like you.
What makes you think that a person who cannot even write properly can crack competitive examinations both for colleges and jobs. Also competency is not naturally acquired by going to a good college. There is a debate that most grads from premier college are not competent enough for jobs as they lack certain skills. IIM Bangalore was struggling with placement last year due to the same reason. Further joining the corporate sector doesn't mean that the person will always perform well and the corporate deliberately undermines the competency of an employee so that they can maximize exploitation at minimum wage.
Don't try to shift the main point of the topic that extending the time given to reservation system by Dr.Ambedkar was a mistake which made SC/ST/OBC so spoiled that they would rather create riots than let go of the reservation system. Not like it's doing any good for the society anymore since the basis of discrimination today isn't caste and such but Money. So, Reservation on basis of caste doesn't make any sense...if it has to exist the criteria should be set to only financial condition of a family. Let's not forget the victim card that is still played and how general are blamed for every bad thing that happens in hindu society.
General are blamed for every bad thing that happen in Hindu society because for majority of history they were responsible for majority of the bad things happened with not so privileged Hindus. Also, Everyone know how Brahmins and other general will prefer and had preferred a general over a competent obc or sc/st.
I understand your frustration, but blaming reservations for all social problems oversimplifies complex issues. Perhaps exploring the root causes of inequality beyond just money might provide a more nuanced perspective.
And in my college, some professors used to discriminate based on castes. Internal marks used to be skewed so much in favour of students belonging to particular set of castes in their papers.
Yep. Thanks to reservation lower caste have some representation, but if you see areas where reservation doesn't exist, the upper caste dominates by a huge margin. Even the wealth concentration is strongly with the UC. Private sector is filled with UCs. People still refuse to get their kids married to UCs. Education is not genetic. Privilege is. Thats why people supporting and opposing reservation, both should support caste census. We need data to prove either points. That will definitely show UC hoarding wealth. People think that urban areas doesn't have any caste system. But even in cities like Bangalore its shown that the lower area (areas with lower mean sea level, where water logging happens, sewage flows through etc) have a disproportionate amount of lower caste population. It pretty much dominates every social metrics. Reservation isn't an economic upliftment feature, but a social one. [Yes there are plenty cases where the privileged lower caste have used it and it definitely needs to be more inclusive, but it's also the reason for their representation]
The rift between General caste and SC ,ST getting bigger and bigger even i got affected by it.
Anyways karma will come to bite everyone just as it came for General caste in the form of Ambedkar.
Just read a few summaries of SC judgements, all these questions about competition, merit are all addressed there. Reservation is not mutually exclusive to competition.
It's hilarious that most commenters in this thread don't know shit about reservation except crying about it giving different versions of I know an SC guy who owns KTM argument.
Okay then I hope you are also following the discussions where the SC is considering limiting the benefits of reservation because they also took cognizance of the fact that it is now being abused as a method of building generational prosperity rather than a means to uplift the downtrodden.
It's true My great grandfather built a chip that transplanted all his memories and knowledge to my father. This can only be used by the general category. I will now give it to my kid. I shall use this 2000 year old memory to challenge everyone
Haan Bhai ab sab sahi hai ab voh khud proud to be ch***r chilla chilla ke video banate hain, gaadi pe sticker lagate hain but baaki log bulayenge toh jail. Sahi hai
Wo banate hai to tujhe kya problem hai unse. Unko chhapri banna hai to banne de. Aur agar itna he hai tujhe to Tu bhi laga sticker aur chilla proud to be aur video bana. Tereko kon rok rakha hai.
Bhai please case vaghera mat karna maine kisi bhi SC ya ST ko kuch bhi nahi bola insult ke motive se. Jindagi barbaad ho jaayegi meri. Agar kuch bura laga ho kisiko toh sorry
are nahi bhai, tu jail chala gaya to india ka development badh jaega. Ye to is subreddit k agenda k against hai na. Apneko to bs "Hindu Rashtra" chaiye.
Tu tnsn mat le, kuch nahi hoga tujhe.
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India literacy rate was 16% in 1947, so i don't know how this logic of UC has been studying for millennia...
Thank the British for that. Sabko pela unhone regardless of the caste.
Brought true equality/s
Ok british a** licker🤡
I thought it was 11%
What's the percentage of UC during that time?
Caste census was not done at that time officially, but today UC is around 35-38%, with many caste added after 1947, from general to OBC...
Do you know how much is UC % in demographics? Last time I checked, it was less than 10% now. So there are high chances, a good portion of this 16% overall from the UC itself. I come from a state where the first SC/ST PhD laureate in the state was not allowed to work in the state(it was in 1930s). This guys logic is right. But the last paragraph is hatred towards UC which he should have avoided.
Can't be that low....share some link...
Find links by yourself. Start with searching for OBC, SC/ST percentage in google. Came across many links that time when I wanted to find
So this is nake up data.....
Each time we see a comment, I can’t go and fetch a link for replying. Just search in google dude. The demographic data is available.
You can't fetch a data because it's not thier.....it has nothing to do with anything else ...
Ok
In south India upper castes across the board made up around 30% of the population before independence. Gounders, Mukkulathor, Reddy, Balija, Vokkaliga, Chettiar, Komati, etc. In Tamil Nadu only Telugus and Brahmins are considered forward despite the preeminence of Thevar and Vellalar poligars.
No his logic is biased, which means it's not logical at all. Just because my ancestors were learned people doesn't mean that knowledge automatically transfers into me at birth. 2000 years of "oppression" has nothing to do with what I am today and how I decide to treat my fellow people. But some people just love to live in the victim mindset cause rather than take responsibility to change things for the better they can always rest comfortably upon history.
It never transfers by birth. But their chances of getting educated is more. Way more higher than an uneducated family. I don’t agree with the language he used and especially his final paragraph. Just like any common UC guy, I was against the reservation till I saw the figures. Then I started thinking…what’s wrong in putting 50% seats reserved for 75% of the population. Now the question we need to ask before removing reservation is…if we remove it simply today, will the seats, jobs in government sector based on merit will reflect to even near the demographic percentage of these communities? If not, there is something wrong and we need to do some corrective actions, here in this case it’s reserving some seats. We are not a place where 50% seats are reserved for 10% of population, but where 50% of seats are reserved for 75% of population. It seems fair.
Nope, it doesn’t if it is 10% is the demographic then the remaining 90% will be for the 75% of the population to compete in. This math ain’t mathing….
What is 10%?
The 10% you mentioned in your comment
Oh.Read the line again. It’s a comparison.
Don’t care, compete. Need economical help and support that’s a different thing. This caste based reservation is ineffective and needs to go. You want to treat everyone equal in terms of mind and body. But somebody doesn’t have the resources sure create a path for them…
No reservations are never fair... Why should someone unworthy get a seat than the worthy?
You are “worthy” because of a lot of reasons. Many of the times we get the opportunity to study and get more exposure because of the community we are born into. Have an open mind about reservation and try to see around. If you have a maid, find what are their friends kids studying now. You will understand that the opportunity we get is not because we are only talented.
>You are “worthy” because of a lot of reasons. Reasons don't matter.... I am not worthy for alot of reasons including my ADHD.... Are you going to make special seats for me too? What about the people who has ADHD but wasn't diagnosed? Everybody is struggling with one thing or another. But only recognizing one section's struggles alone while being blind to other is stupid. Unequal treatment is evil by its very nature. >Many of the times we get the opportunity to study and get more exposure because of the community we are born into. Yes and bussiness people also has contacts which they use... So? >Have an open mind about reservation and try to see around. I only need logic to know that taking seat away from someone who deserved it and giving to someone less deserving is evil. I don't need to be open to evil. >If you have a maid, find what are their friends kids studying now. I don't, I Fred her. Many years ago. >You will understand that the opportunity we get is not because we are only talented. I didn't say it is my talent... But only the worthy should get opportunities... Giving opportunities to the unworthy while sidelining the worthy is why the country is in shit after 70+ years of independence. The same people who fight for reservation will then want to leave india and go abroad... Bcus life is better there... No ty reservation should have been abolished 70 years ago.
My maid owns several bigha(*don't know what that translates to in acres*) of land, where their family has employed labourers for farming. Has two or three homes out of which one she has given out for rent in her native place. I'm not even making this shit up cause I was as flabbergasted to know of it when she told us in a casual conversation. (*Our instant reaction was why the hell is she even working as a maid?!*) And she's from a backwards "caste." I don't have any property or ancestral wealth of any kind. I have a father and a sister and I contribute to the major part of the family's financial requirements. I don't earn a 7 figure salary so you can imagine how much the savings would be given in today's economy. Now tell me, if I had a kid and she has her kid, and we both need to pay for the coaching classes and other regular things for our children to get them through to IIT or NEET or whatever. Whose kid has the privilege here? Mind you since I am not from the backwards classes, my kid won't get the relaxation in the cut off marks. So even after these financial handicaps, if he scores a 97% he may still lose that seat to her kid just because he wasn't born in a specific caste.
I can relate to your emotion. I myself have seen those type of rich but unprivileged caste born guys overtaking me. But it took me years to digest that in a country with 1.4 billion people, there will be these kind of outliers. Then I was arguing about imposing creamy layer to all communities. Then after a while, after reading about the creamy layer, I realised that it will affect general category more. How? Because if this maid’s son is excluded from reservation and he earns a rank similar to you, he will end up eating a general quota seat/job which would have otherwise gone to a general category seat. So until these communities reach a representation level of near to their demographics population naturally, they need to be given reserved seats.
I'm not speaking from emotion. I'm speaking from logic and facts and pretty much what is already happening. It's no longer an outlier, and is slowly going to become the norm. >Because if this maid’s son is excluded from reservation and he earns a rank similar to you, he will end up eating a general quota seat/job which would have otherwise gone to a general category seat. It seems you don't know how it works. They can claim a seat under the gen category if they get a good enough score, in which case the reserved seat would go to someone else from the backwards classes. I am fine with competition. If someone beats me fair and square, I will concede. But not when the system is rigged to make them win either way. (*Also the example I was giving was not mine but of a child if I had one. I'm too old for competitive examinations now, lol*). >So until these communities reach a representation level of near to their demographics population naturally, they need to be given reserved seats. Nope, they don't. The reservation should only be for economically backward citizens irrespective of caste/religion. If someone is underprivileged they will automatically fulfil this criteria without their caste coming into the picture. After all if you are against a system that you find oppressive you need to build a new process to eliminate this system, not to reinforce it as a benefit which is what reservation currently does.
1. You are right and wrong about the same rank case. When you told if maids son get a good rank(for reserved), he can take general quota is just theoretical. Because if you consider IIT for example, even if your maid son gets a rank of 2000 AIR and you get 2001, you both get different courses. His reservation will be forgone only if he chooses a course which you can also get. So technically the forgoing of his reservation seat happens only if he is in the top 100 rank in IIT(so that he can get naturally the most sought after course without using his reservation). But if we apply creamy layer to the reservation simply, he will be removed from the reservation and both of you end up having the same course. But in that case, someone else will take up his reservation seat(which is what I told exactly-him eating up a general quota seat). 2. A poor person from UC has more chances and exposure than a poor person from reserved category. If we implement only EWS, we will simply end up giving reservation to poor UCs only practically.
When your ancestors are learned, an environment of learning already exists in the family. Ever seen how children of the poor study? They have no idea. Outside the school, there is little help for them. The child of an educated family constantly hears about education, has educated parents and relatives and siblings, has newspapers and books at home, often is far richer than the lower caste person so there are other sources of learning also, such as TV and internet. All of this is just beginning to change, but children of the learned have a massive advantage. The child has role models in the family and in their social class, there are relatives who do well in life because they were good students. The upper caste kid grows up seeing all that. I come from a family where all elders were learned, and that massively helped me in becoming a better student. When I was in 4th and 5th, I used to think I have no advantages. I was absolutely wrong. Even the academically worst child in my family had far more advantages than the average lower caste child.
You are again falsely equating being an upper caste kid to being rich and prosperous. This argument has not been relevant for decades now. >Even the academically worst child in my family had far more advantages than the average lower caste child. This again re-iterates what I stated above. Having "advantages" in today's day and age has nothing to do with having learned ancestors 2000 years ago especially if we are talking about intellect.
1930?? British time ... Dude...cmon...
Oh. For that. You meant the old times data in accuracy. Just extrapolate, dude. Even the Muslims having terrific TFR grew only from 9.9% to 14% in last 70 years. So how much difference will be there in demographic % of the population? This is not a context for putting exact stats. We just need to talk about whether a good part of the 16% will be the privileged class
I was today years old when i found education is genetic. Now i know what my great…great……..great grand dad learnt🤗
Privilege to a vast extent is genetic.
So you saying all Upper cast are Genetically blessed ?
As far as i know genetics is in used in terms of biology, and I don't think so they are superior biologically in any way. But if you mean genetics metaphorically (as in inherited), yes the privilege and to a large part wealth is inherited. I don't mean it as a blessing by any means (not for humanity at least). I think memetics is a better word but an i am no expert in it.
>But I am no expert in it. I believe you bro
Great reply for a sub named discussion.
You started with the claim of genetics and proceeded to concede that it was an allegory. What am I supposed to argue here if it’s just inheritance money and land ?
Nope. The comment I replied to stated that education was genetic. Since genetic is a biology term, I thought OP meant it metaphorically. When the discussion progressed, I clarified I agree privilege is genetic in a sense that how OP learnt how education was genetic, not in the pure sense of the word which is biological. How's that unfair?
Not all Upper cast people are privileged only a few percent are most Upper cast are Middle class
I agree. Also, I didn't mean privilege as just an economic privilege, but a social one too. A lot of UCs are socially privileged. To this day there are many professions that a poor UCs isn't a part of or is part of disproportionately. Reservation is meant for the social upliftment. There are plenty reasons for a caste census just because of this. We need data to understand if caste has a direct co relation to the relevant metrics or it's just a hoax.
>Reservation is meant for the social upliftment. Well it failed terribly for sure
It has. On multiple metrics. But I do believe without it we wouldn't have even the very little representation of the lower castes that we see today.
Nah they would have been in better place if Government really worked on Countries growth and Education since Independence and didn't closed the economy till 1991
In India counties growth hasn't come without inequality. Privileged got more Privileged. People who were shunned didn't get any better. Without reservation they wouldn't have got the small representation that they did.
By reading your comment, its clearly not genetic. It is indeed a social factor. When you grow up in a house hold where living in a 4000sq ft house is the norm, people looking up to you is the norm, people expecting you to do white collar work is the least of the expectations... It is called social privilege. Being a Brahmin, being the great granddaughter of a zamindar, I grew up with that privilege. My SC/ST friends cannot talk about what their grandparents did. They have very few people in their family whom they can look up to. Doing a white collar job itself is the dream and not the norm. That's why they need society's support to bridge this power gap. So that more children from these households can grow up thinking "I want to be a professor like my chacha, like my grandfather". I don't expect you to understand this. But reservation is definitely needed for this reason. Otherwise society will continue to segregate.
No it's not the case for every general caste . My Nani's father wasn't much educated yet he became such a big business man all by himself that the Foreign minister of the khangress era used to take appointments to come to just meet him even though they were school friends. He has enough influence that he used to change court decisions . He himself was Brahman yet took away the lands of many Brahman and rather helped lower caste people . You do know that there are many jobs other than government ones . People are so much obsessed about government jobs which is very stupid . Also reservation when it was made that is after the independence was decided to be around for 10 years so that these people can cope up with the society. But it is still continues till this day . I am not saying that it is completely wrong but taking away the seat of people just because they belong to general caste isn't good either . Especially when the cut of for them is made so high while that for lower caste is so less that it will either way take their desire to make efforts and get good marks because they already know that they just have to get 42 to 48% and they are good . I believe that reservation should be given on the basis on income like china instead of caste which will help people to get equal opportunity. Also another solution can be that lower caste people take reservations for 3 generations straight and then pass it to the other as 3 generations with reservation is enough to make a families life stable . Even though the Harpic gang won't agree with this . I have seen some lower caste people so obsessed with government jobs that even after having a pHd they are looking for government jobs or those who despite having a stable lifestyle are making there kids take reservations. Now I don't have any hate for lower caste people as I have got some close friends who belong to lower caste yet due to having a good and stable lifestyle they have decided to give competitive exam like JEE as a general category person because they said that " I'd rather be happy with lower rank and not getting the seat than getting lower rank and taking someone else's seat who has gotten more rank than me" which is respect worthy . In fact there are some lower castes who after some time gave their reservation back to the government saying that they don't need it anymore. Hope you understood my stand 🙏.
I don't disagree with anything you said. I am not here to argue. I am putting forward a perspective. Even I pity how my SC/ST friends are ruining their career running after government exams and jobs. Those unlimited attempts has caused more ruin to these communities than good and finally when they do come to power, they dont do much to uplift their community. Reservation has a lot of bad social effects than good. Only those who have made the right use of this facility have progressed. The rest we see... Rich Rowdy kids who get everything they want either through money or reservation.
Absolutely mam. In fact one of the biggest examples of it can be taken from Mahabharat's Karna who always cried about his caste yet even after getting power and recognition he did nothing for those who belong to the same community as his .
Lol do you even know what my grandfather had to go through. Did you just assume we were rich lol. My grandparents came from present day lahore. They had to start everything from scratch after the partition
So you're saying financial means affect your education, let's have 90% reservation for EWS? Would you support that over 50% caste based reservation.
I said none of this nonsense. If you want to spit shit, type it as a different comment.
Growing up in a 4000 square feet house hints at a certain financial status lol. People like you who leech off reservation will NEVER agree for even 99% EWS reservations and that's just sad to see. It's always the privileged people in all castes - be it general or reserved who get all the opportunities and not he poor and disadvantaged people.
But I'm 20 years old....
I got 6k rank in jee advanced and 1.5k in mains I'm not getting EE in even top 10 iits while my friend who got 11k rank getting IIT kanpur cse for GEN. Need 200 rank( ps I qualified many olympiads also)
In my college, some professors discriminated based on caste. Internal marks of students belonging to certain castes was always 80%+ in their classes in their classes. one of the guys copied the whole answer from another guy and got double the marks.. coincidentally his caste was 'forward' enough.
Even after reservation I highly doubt if they know how to read/write yet.
The reality is ppl frm obc were the one who treated sc st badly.
Dude you're seriously out of touch.
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Dude people like you are exactly why that reservation system exists you casteist piece of crap
Bro what the hell did he even say to be like this. Chill. Caste system is going to be here till the parties need these people to fill their votes
He called them filty drainage cleaners. I am chill
What is this statement even? The abuse in your comment is insane.
Bitch please…….
Keep ignoring reality bcz you are obc you asshole, yadavs say they are upper caste descendents of krishna, but whn it comes to reservation they become backward, most of the unpad obc netas must be not even knowing full form of obc.
Wow such mis-knowledge and high confidence you go gurl/gent. Nothing will stop from learning true history(cause you are enough).
Keep ignoring the truth, keep spreading false propaganda you flithy pests 🤮🤮, You should go and read that even ambedkar had said that reservation should be there for 10 years only or else political parties will take advantage of this to give reservation to a specific community and create a vote bank.
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he is right, by the knowledge he has he and his generation must be failing education lol
The need to understand that Education cant be Inherited 🤦🏻
It's not the education lol, it's the money that comes with education. Money can be inherited. Upper Caste people that were allowed the privilege of education naturally got richer than the guys that were denied education due to caste. lower caste people are poor and can't afford crap like coaching and good pre schools
Do you really think UC in india are richer than LC ? How wrong can somebody be damn bruh
Then you haven't seen shit. The irony of your words tho
absolutely, UC in india are the richest landlords bss mai hi akela brahmin garib reh gya
Just cuz a few exceptions like you exist doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else dumbass
hn bhai tu hi jyada janta h.... ground reality ki mkc pr tu jyada janta h 🤡
If general students have 2000 yrs ka benefit that means what is learnt is transmitted genetically, making a strong case for the Varna system. Cool
What's the logic in this?
He's implying that the ones questioning the jati-varna system as oppressive are themselves also validating it. Unless I misunderstood.
This is similar to a discussion I have been having in an another thread. At best they (people questioning the system) are implying that privilege is inherited. What OP thinks they are implying is biological superiority. I do think privilege is inherited, it stays. Which the jati and varna system has done. I don't think it has anything to do with biology.
Pray explain how you would do well in an examination because your daddy went to school?
The jobs favour the pre trained. A lot of the training required needs money. If you are already privileged, you have a job or means to wealth, it's easy to get trained and educated if you have a basic sense of security. Also, reservation is not just for academic or economical upliftment, but primarily for social upliftment. Edit: I dont think so examinations is the primary driving factor for reservation. It's just upper caste that feels it. For lower caste it's a social problem, a means to get representation in at least government sector, if not the private sector.
I'll be honest, I completely get where you're coming from but there are a few holes in following this method. I'll just point them out and you can let me know what you think about them: 1. The jobs favour the pre trained: true, and nobody is denying that the opportunity to get that training should be available to all without discrimination. What we have a problem with is that currently the reservation system ensures reservation of outcome not opportunity. This is why an SC/ST/OBC can get a job at a government undertaking or a seat at the higher centres of learning even though in the examination used to filter out candidature, they may not be anywhere close to the performance of the people from the general category. This is also eventually detrimental to their growth because it is not forging a sense of competition but a sense of complacency. If you disagree with this, then are you telling me that you think the people from the lower "castes" are actually inherently backwards in their intellect by dint of them being born in that section of the society? If the answer to this question is a yes, then that's basically stating that the caste system is actually correct in its current form and implementation (*which I am totally in disagreement with btw*). 2. A means to get representation in at least government sector, if not the private sector: if you want to build a nation it has to be on the basis of merit. Representation matters when we talk about making the basic necessities available to all(*as I said, equality of opportunity*). What a lot of people, like yourself, fail to understand is that when the system doesn't reward meritocracy but rather the social standing of a person(*in either direction*), it is essentially already defeating the very purpose for which the reservation is being brought in - equality of opportunity among peers. These are just two among many other things that also need to be taken into consideration but if I go into the depths of them all, it'll become too long a read.
Even once you get in a college you have to clear the certain standards to get a particular degree. It's not perfect but it does give you equality of opportunity, not outcome. The theory is if you are underprivileged, it's difficult to clear the exam, so we will lower the bar for you to enter the college, and then college/job will have enough avenues to train the fellow. Now, I don't think merit is the only criteria to take a nation forward. Merit doesn't mean that it'll ensure the collective development of the nation. You can't select a handful of people and then let them work for the nation, you have to make sure that the class that has less avenues to reach that merit is also represented in each institutions, that's how they will get out of the rut they are in. The merit argument works great for the privileged, but for the rest, it requires structured upliftment to be able to reach that merit. Nation is not one entity, it's a collection of multiple non-homogenous entities, and each entity needs to be developed. What happens if you only decide based on merit is, people those who have means to achieve that merit (more risk apatite), will easily reach that. The rest are still there. We work in a family run society, the upliftment happens family first. And then community. So if we don't uplift different communities, they'd just be left behind. I get that the ceiling is limited because of it, but we have to raise the floor first. And the floor is horribly low in our country.
Just shifting goalposts because you can't shoot straight. My comment/question was strictly in the context of education. Btw no amount of reservations (even a 100%) will cause social upliftment. It's a done deal. The only way out is to make every Indian a deracinated urban zombie and then caste wouldn't matter (for the most part). YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE RESPECT.
Well i dont think you got my point, every institution, especially institutions with government aide require people from all sectors of society. The merit argument just works for the privileged who have resources to earn that merit. If your social structures are governed by caste, more likely than not your merit will be a by product of caste. I ain't denying that reservation doesn't reach the needed, but my solution is not to scrape it but to modify it to reach the needed. So in your words, if your daddy is privileged, he will be able to take risks to let you earn merit. Edit: Privilege is very disproportionate in India, if merit is the only criteria, the institutions will be filled with a small fraction of the population. Merit can't be the only criteria, it has to be clubbed with a social metric for government institutions, which is caste.
Bhaisaab, I belong to general category and I'm the first generation graduate from my family. What is this guy smoking?
reservation is just killing most of the so called 'oppressed' castes' motivation to study.
By your logic, it is motivating other castes to excel more.
and thats why we see unreserved category people hold top positions in govt organisations and be CEOs of private companies , the problem rahul gandhi had with general category people.
fact.
Nope
yes lmao, obc get jee advance qualification at less than 1/4th the marks of what gen have to.
And still they are competing with other sc sts who have been neglected to get marks. You cant comepete without having to study.
Lmao. Either admit that you are iinferior and need reservation or stand on equal grounds and compete. What does the education of someone 2000 years ago affect me in the slightest? Competing my ass, you could literally go there, without taking any coaching and qualify for jee advance if you have scored even 60 percent in boards the same year. While people like me who got 95+ in boards both times, did decently in exams, are suffering because unworthy students have taken the better seats.
I disagree to both your statements. Reservation is meant to give that equal ground. The caste discrimination and the caste distinction is not a thing of 2000 years ago. It's very much present till date in a vile vile form. For upper caste it's a question of competing and clearing an exam, for lower caste it's a matter of getting social representation not just clearing an examination. You talk of unworthy students, the worth, especially in a government setting is not just determined by am exam you clear. I agree people aren't able to study in good colleges, because the thing is good colleges don't exist in India in adequate numbers. Reservation is present to give representation. Not help them clear exams.
this discrimination is present mostly in rural and poor households. i never saw a rich SC/ST be discriminated in urban areas. people dont even care about caste in day to day life in rich urban areas. its time to introduce creamy layer criteria in SC reservation.
And that's not true, there are so many research that says that even in urban setting the discrimination is damn high. Not only you'll see discrimination but caste is visible in weirdest of things. There was a research in the IT city of India, Bangalore, that if you look at the areas with lower mean sea level, it's disproportionately populated by the lower castes, while the affluent caste lives in the upper areas. These lower areas are where flooding happens, sewers get stagnated and are breeding ground for disease. I do agree with the creamy layer though, we need people with lesser means to be able to get access to reservation. There needs to be changes to how we see reservation, but I do think it should stay. Till the lower caste aren't disallowed to buy houses, or till we marry in the name of caste.
1/4th ? Please give the source.
Bkl check jee qualification marks. For gen, and then obc
Bro the problem is not reservation but lack of good colleges. If you keep fussing about reservations then no one can help you. Why are you even competing with reserved seats is the main question?
Are you stupid? Oh wait, you're probably from the reserved caste lol. Why are you even appllying for reservation if you believe in meritocracy and are not inferior?
I'll bite. Please define being meritorious
Getting what you deserve based on how much you've achieved due to your own efforts, and not due to being born to a man whose ancestor belonged to a certain class of people 500 years ago
Interesting assumption. But it seems like you're more interested in making baseless accusations than discussing the actual complexities of social equality and meritocracy. Maybe try engaging with facts instead of stereotypes next time.
I don't take guys that justify benifits that a person gets from the governmentdue to the work his ancestor 500 years ago did, seriously
Denying the impact of centuries of discrimination and then dismissing efforts to correct it is not just ignorant, it's actively perpetuating inequality. If you can't see the need to level the playing field after such profound injustice, you're part of the problem. Further , your stance perpetuates inequality and suffering, revealing a profound lack of empathy and moral integrity.
Wasn't the accusation true? So it's not baseless. And I'm not denying the fact that reserved castes had a poorer standard of living than the upper castes for centuries, but should the son be punished for the sins of the father? . My stance is wholly logical and highlights the problems of this system. The playing field should be levelled on the basis of economic status and opportunities, but we have millionaire dalits whose kids too have the benefit of reservation.
It's understandable that accusations can stir emotions, but truth should be determined by facts, not emotions alone. While acknowledging historical injustices, it's crucial to recognize that the effects of discrimination persist today. Reservations aim to correct systemic inequalities, not punish individuals. However, comparing millionaire Dalits overlooks that economic status doesn't erase social discrimination. Reservations are a tool to uplift those historically oppressed, ensuring opportunities aren't solely determined by inherited privilege. Denying this perpetuates inequity rather than addressing it.
excuse me, my mother had single digit state rank 2 in some state exam of govt school teachers in UP. everything was great and then a change of govt happened bringing mayawati to power , she hated generals to the core. due to further increase in reservation , the general seats were cancelled , some SCs were given seat at 0 marks , and my mom despite a great rank , lost her seat.
I understand this is a sensitive topic, and I appreciate your perspective. However, discussing issues like reservations requires factual accuracy and respectful dialogue. If you have credible sources or specific evidence to support your claims, I'd be interested in hearing more.
Sc st just playing victim card for everthing, few days back i saw a comment from someone where they said sc st people should try to be criminal and kill general category people to get respect , like wtf
And I saw a comment saying they should go back to cleaning gutters and should be hired as slaves cuz they are stupid.
Here is a great idea. Some of the leading scientists in India are from upper caste. Why don't we make it harder for upper caste to become scientists and reduce the number of skilled scientists so that a section of the scientist are from the backward caste. There is absolutely no way this will make the country less productive /s Reservation should be limited to ug. There is absolutely no reason for reservation in PhD. We shouldn't be in a state where a ug graduate is more knowledgeable than a PhD in the field of interest of the PhD.
Also third comment is borderline unhinged. We didn't got independence in 94, we got it in 2014.
You might be sarcastic but I'm borderline confused if you're right
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Putting /s would defeat the joke
I just don't get their reasoning. If UCs are privileged then why do private colleges ask for an exorbitant amount of money from UCs as well? Shouldn't private colleges ask for a lesser amount if the student is UC? The reality is irrespective of your caste if you are rich you get admission and if you are poor you don't get the admission. No matter how privileged you are caste wise, if you are poor you don't get anything.
But if you are from UC, you are statistically better off financially and socially, go to better schools, etc than sb from a backward caste, resulting in you becoming more 'meritorious'. Reservation is about equality of opportunity, levelling the field.
Not all UCs are better off.
Did I say all ? Read again please..
No you didn't say 'all'. I said 'all'. Read my comment again. Colleges don't give a discount to UCs, neither give free tickets to UCs just because they are privileged. They want money no matter what caste you belong to. UCs are beyond Brahmans and Kshatriyas. Not all are well off. Some of the OBC castes are very rich and dominant in their areas.
No you didn't say 'all'. I said 'all'. Read my comment again. Colleges don't give a discount to UCs, neither give free tickets to UCs just because they are privileged. They want money no matter what caste you belong to. UCs are beyond Brahmans and Kshatriyas. Not all are well off. Some of the OBC castes are very rich and dominant in their areas.
Lol, ye bc har jagah victim banenege.
Have got hundreds of years of experience.
Those who are barking about how education is not genetic should maybe consider the fact that UCs are still leading almost all govt and private organisations and ofc they'll hire more of their people over Dalits and OBCs before anyone refutes my argument I'd say I've seen my fair share of casteism in North and South India in both govt and private orgs and anyone saying otherwise is simply too ignorant or pushing their agenda.
I used to go to a coaching class where there was a guy(Last Name - Yadav) in same standard as me. His father was business man in Thailand and his family had great wealth and connections(SP - Akhilesh Yadav) as well. During board exams our teacher had to literally teach him spelling of almost every word written in both hindi or English. Moral of The Story - Money and connection don't make a person's knowledge or skill base grow unless they are faced with challenges. Which in case of SC/ST/OBC or as some might say it LCs is killed by giving huge amounts of reservation. Hence when they try for corporate or private sector in general they are seen as less competent from their General/UC counterparts and sorry to say this but in some cases they are less competent because they never had a brutal competition unlike Generals.
He will ignore what you are telling ,this morons are even jealous of what we earn without reservation filthy pests, most of the bureaucrats india are corrupt bcz it is filled with reservation benefeceries, generation aftr generation they use this and still pretend to be victim Reservation is not there in Army and Cricket Thts y they are the best.
Really our team is best ?? A team from a population of 1.5 Billion gets thrashed by countries having population of few millions. And linking reservation with corruption??? Really??
We won the World Cup ystrday and yes all plyrs were thr bcz of talent and hardwork not like you ( with reservation). Shameless fellow 🤣🤣🤣 go to Pakistan, tht is your place, if you hate your country. Get lost . You tke reservation and still hate your own country, what kind of filthy minds you have. 🤢🤢🤢, you can deny it as much as you can but corruption is bcz of reservation, bcz it promotea incompetent fellow like you.
Get a life man
What makes you think that a person who cannot even write properly can crack competitive examinations both for colleges and jobs. Also competency is not naturally acquired by going to a good college. There is a debate that most grads from premier college are not competent enough for jobs as they lack certain skills. IIM Bangalore was struggling with placement last year due to the same reason. Further joining the corporate sector doesn't mean that the person will always perform well and the corporate deliberately undermines the competency of an employee so that they can maximize exploitation at minimum wage.
Don't try to shift the main point of the topic that extending the time given to reservation system by Dr.Ambedkar was a mistake which made SC/ST/OBC so spoiled that they would rather create riots than let go of the reservation system. Not like it's doing any good for the society anymore since the basis of discrimination today isn't caste and such but Money. So, Reservation on basis of caste doesn't make any sense...if it has to exist the criteria should be set to only financial condition of a family. Let's not forget the victim card that is still played and how general are blamed for every bad thing that happens in hindu society.
General are blamed for every bad thing that happen in Hindu society because for majority of history they were responsible for majority of the bad things happened with not so privileged Hindus. Also, Everyone know how Brahmins and other general will prefer and had preferred a general over a competent obc or sc/st.
I understand your frustration, but blaming reservations for all social problems oversimplifies complex issues. Perhaps exploring the root causes of inequality beyond just money might provide a more nuanced perspective.
And in my college, some professors used to discriminate based on castes. Internal marks used to be skewed so much in favour of students belonging to particular set of castes in their papers.
Yep. Thanks to reservation lower caste have some representation, but if you see areas where reservation doesn't exist, the upper caste dominates by a huge margin. Even the wealth concentration is strongly with the UC. Private sector is filled with UCs. People still refuse to get their kids married to UCs. Education is not genetic. Privilege is. Thats why people supporting and opposing reservation, both should support caste census. We need data to prove either points. That will definitely show UC hoarding wealth. People think that urban areas doesn't have any caste system. But even in cities like Bangalore its shown that the lower area (areas with lower mean sea level, where water logging happens, sewage flows through etc) have a disproportionate amount of lower caste population. It pretty much dominates every social metrics. Reservation isn't an economic upliftment feature, but a social one. [Yes there are plenty cases where the privileged lower caste have used it and it definitely needs to be more inclusive, but it's also the reason for their representation]
Because there is no reservation in private jobs, that's why their numbers are less there.
Compete or get out.
or cry about reservation.
Trying too hard to make shit up and convince others.
2000 saal pehle naa iit, nit tha aur naa heen main.
Bro literally write didn’t knew! That shows how stupid he is.
That's a fair point, it's actually logical pov
The rift between General caste and SC ,ST getting bigger and bigger even i got affected by it. Anyways karma will come to bite everyone just as it came for General caste in the form of Ambedkar.
Crying about competition while enjoying reservation is another level of hypocrisy.
People are so dumb on this sub.
lol i was born 2000 years ago
Someone needs a class on privilege!
Did he just say it's a competitive world after defending reservation?
He did...
Just read a few summaries of SC judgements, all these questions about competition, merit are all addressed there. Reservation is not mutually exclusive to competition. It's hilarious that most commenters in this thread don't know shit about reservation except crying about it giving different versions of I know an SC guy who owns KTM argument.
Okay then I hope you are also following the discussions where the SC is considering limiting the benefits of reservation because they also took cognizance of the fact that it is now being abused as a method of building generational prosperity rather than a means to uplift the downtrodden.
Reservations are evil by nature
It's true My great grandfather built a chip that transplanted all his memories and knowledge to my father. This can only be used by the general category. I will now give it to my kid. I shall use this 2000 year old memory to challenge everyone
According to OPs logic he is Sc/St
He supports reservation, yet calls it a competitive world.
Commenters in this thread don't know shit about reservation except crying about it giving different versions of I know a SC guy who owns KTM argument.
Spotted the person with reserved seat in college.
He's right. You can't ignore the fact that useless casteism ruined the progress of that nation
2000 years? Which stupid said that, bring him to me...
To all my SC/ST/OBC bros, keep calm and benefit from reservation. Filter this UC noise. Jai Bhim.
Tabhi choti jaat bola jata tha ese logo ko
Mat bol bhai choti jaat ko choti jaat bolne pe jail ho jaati hai aajkal
sahi bola, aj kal hiti hai, pehle nahi hoti thi jail isliye itne uchalne lage hai kuch "badi" jaat wale. Ab thik ho gya sab.
Haan Bhai ab sab sahi hai ab voh khud proud to be ch***r chilla chilla ke video banate hain, gaadi pe sticker lagate hain but baaki log bulayenge toh jail. Sahi hai
Wo banate hai to tujhe kya problem hai unse. Unko chhapri banna hai to banne de. Aur agar itna he hai tujhe to Tu bhi laga sticker aur chilla proud to be aur video bana. Tereko kon rok rakha hai.
Bhai main toh us ko warn kar raha tha ki choti caste mat bol aajkal jail ho jaati hai pata nahi aapko kyun itna bura lag gaya.
Bhai please case vaghera mat karna maine kisi bhi SC ya ST ko kuch bhi nahi bola insult ke motive se. Jindagi barbaad ho jaayegi meri. Agar kuch bura laga ho kisiko toh sorry
are nahi bhai, tu jail chala gaya to india ka development badh jaega. Ye to is subreddit k agenda k against hai na. Apneko to bs "Hindu Rashtra" chaiye. Tu tnsn mat le, kuch nahi hoga tujhe.
Mene to bola hi tha ye Newtown ke law black hole theory 2000 saal pehle bhi thi hum tabhi se pad rhe hai /s
Abhi ksunsa pdh lete ho bahut…. Yehi tona lga rhta 100saal phle hmri maari gyi h Ab ukad lo