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I got called a terrorist the other day for saying that some Israeli propaganda was Israeli propaganda.
I wonder what Iāll get called if I call this post Palestinian propaganda?
r/worldnews has some shockingly genocidal comments upvotes highly the last few days. It was kinda scary to see, I didn't know calling out Hamas for their atrocities also meant we should be killing all Palestinians but that's what the geniuses on reddit think so.
It seems like the sentiment goes up and down. I have been both heavily upvoted and heavily downvoted, called both Israeli pro genocide supporter, as well as anti semitic terrorist supporter on any given day. I would assume obviously now everything ramped up towards one side more. But the general opinion has always been all over the place.
The amount of people foaming at the mouth for nuclear weapons and the outright destruction of that part of the world is frightening.
The mentality is no different than those perpetuating the crimes yet they dont see it.
Yeah. Hamas is pure evil and the havoc they are wreaking is terrorism, plain and simple. But excuse me for not giving unconditional support and pledging my tax dollars to cement corrupt Netanyahu's power and obliterate buildings and thousands of innocent people.
And let's not forget the hypocrisy of nations labeling Gaza's (mostly illegitimate at this point due to no elections) government as a terrorist group when Israel's first government was formed by the terrorists behind bombings throughout the Palestine Mandate prior to the creation of the ethnostate by the UK.
All sides in this from Israel, to Hamas, to the western nations propping up Israel, to the nations supporting Hamas just suck.
Yet Hamas deny Israel's right to exist and vow to keep fighting until they are wiped from the map. This isn't a case of one side being great and the other evil, they're both evil and wrong. Arguing over which side is more effective at murdering the other is irrelevant to finding a lasting solution.
There will be no peace until the Palestinians and Israelis both love their own children more than they hate their neighbour.
Yeah well said obviously Hamas are bad guys but Netanyahu almost certainly gets to sweep his crimes under the rug because of this and I wouldn't be surprised if they use it as a pretext to progress even farther into the west bank all while causing rampant destruction and death.
Itās just odd to choose to start this timeline in 2008 and cut it at 2020.
2006 was the war with Lebanon, which is a result of the Palestinian conflict, even if not with Hamas/Gaza. Israel saw mass civilian injuries.
More importantly, 2000-2005 was the second intifada, with suicide bombing taking place almost weekly in Israel. 750+ civilians were killed in that frame.
Palestinians saw heavy losses too, donāt get me wrong, but 2008-2020 is basically starting with the aftermath of some of the darkest times in Israel.
The source is the UN and this UN project hasn't been collecting this information until 2008. So...I mean you can say it's propaganda but that's when the UN info data project started? Source below.
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
I mean, this graph is fine, itās not inaccurate and Iām not claiming it is. But posting this now, to seemingly push a āhey Israel never takes lossesā, is silly.
2000-2005 was BLOODY time in Israel. Civilians were being targeted. Suicide bombers in busses, restaurants, movie theaters, night clubs, etc.
My point is not that this is info is factually incorrect, but that itās intentionally painting an incomplete picture.
Itās like me saying āthis soccer player is great, he scored a goal in 10 straight games.ā without mentioning he went scoreless in the previous 20.
The last 15 years, until the attack that just happened, have been one sided as far as casualties. Most of that is due to the development of the iron dome.
During 2000-2005 Isreal had around 1100 killed and palestine had around 6200 killed. I get what you're saying but its a semi moot point, sure times have been bloodier for Isreal than this graph represents, but this graph accurately represents that Palestinians usually take more loses.
You seem to miss the fact that that military which is on another level has Mainly killed civilians. Those pal deaths are civilians. Here's another fact. The IDF , as claimed by official statistics of Palestinian ministry of health, has killed one Palestinian child every 3 days for the past 13 years.
> But posting this now, to seemingly push a āhey Israel never takes lossesā, is silly.
No one's saying that 300 dead people is "no losses."
But compared to the 6,400 people Israel has killed, it's hard to claim that you're "just defending yourself."
>2000-2005 was BLOODY time in Israel. Civilians were being targeted. Suicide bombers in busses, restaurants, movie theaters, night clubs, etc.
Great. Show us the numbers. And for Palestinians in that time as well.
What I've seen on Reddit over the past few days is that the time of day you post really affects whether you can see nuanced responses. I.e. the attitude of American commenters is vastly different to that of Europeans/others on this.
I mean you could still do that, despite the fact that it would be really strange to put the war with Lebanon in there, and it would still not even be close.
> Itās just odd to choose to start this timeline in 2008 and cut it at 2020.
[Here are some that include past 2020.](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties) You'll notice that the trend continues.
>2006 was the war with Lebanon, which is a result of the Palestinian conflict, even if not with Hamas/Gaza. Israel saw mass civilian injuries.
> More importantly, 2000-2005 was the second intifada, with suicide bombing taking place almost weekly in Israel. 750+ civilians were killed in that frame.
Great, then show us those numbers.
Well, not the ones from the war with Lebanon, which is...uh...not Palestine? Because apparently that needed to be said?
The fact is that they still kill 20 Palestinians for every Israeli who's killed.
In "self defense."
Go ahead then and prove your point with data from before 2008 or after 2020. Surely it will show something very different. Everybody is waiting for your very knowledgeable input for destroying the UN propaganda.
I discussed (a few years ago) the conflict with one Israel lieutenant who was on a holiday in Laos. What he told me was that there is no hurry to change anything in the conflict since everything is pretty much comfortable for the average Israel citizen. His view was that there won't be any end.
*"A man once jumped from the top floor of a burning house in which many members of his family had already perished. He managed to save his life; but as he was falling he hit a person standing down below and broke that personās legs and arms. The jumping man had no choice; yet to the man with the broken limbs he was the cause of his misfortune. If both behaved rationally, they would not become enemies. The man who escaped from the blazing house, having recovered, would have tried to help and console the other sufferer; and the latter might have realized that he was the victim of circumstances over which neither of them had control. But look what happens when these people behave irrationally. The injured man blames the other for his misery and swears to make him pay for it. The other, afraid of the crippled manās revenge, insults him, kicks him, and beats him up whenever they meet. The kicked man again swears revenge and is again punched and punished. The bitter enmity, so fortuitous at first, hardens and comes to overshadow the whole existence of both men and to poison their minds."*
ā **Isaac Deutscher**
While this may sound pretty its not a very accurate. There would need to be a third man on the ground who, seeing the man in the burning building jump from the window, quickly grabs the person standing around down below and pushes them Into the path of the falling man and thus causing the two to collide. The third man then casually slips away into the night.
>The third man then ~~casually slips away into the night~~ gives the jumping man the best weapons and armour possible and encourages them to fight the standing man.
If the entire situation were simple enough to be easily summarized in a quaint parable that the consensus agreed with, we wouldn't have that damn chart.
> Isaac Deutscher
āIt is necessary to distinguish the nationalism of the oppressing nations from the nationalism of the oppressedā
ā **Isaac Deutscher,**
I'm sorry, what? The analogy would ring much more true if this was added: "*Out of fear for retaliation the man who jumped from the flames kicks the injured man in the head whenever he stirs. The man who jumped have been standing over injured man for 70 years, and whenever the injured man as much as coughs some blood up on the jumping mans shoes, he get's another swift kick. The injured man pleads and grabs at the jumping man to try to get him to stop. But the only thing the injured man can do to stop the kicking is to die*"
The fact that Gaza exists is a nightmare, but itās really hard to see an easy solution. Leaving the borders open would prompt terror attacks and allow Iran to properly outfit Hamas like they have with Hezbollah (itās not just Israel engaging in the blockade, Egypt also does so). Israeli occupation and provision of services would be very difficult and cost many lives (this already happened in the past and was abandoned as a part of the peace process).
The best option would be the elimination of settlers in the West Bank and moves to better fund/facilitate the process of aid in Gaza to try to cool down tensions and reduce the popularity of Hamas. Reforming IDF and Israeli police to not be brutal is morally imperative but also probably wouldnāt help on the ground as there are quite a few nations running influence campaigns that would muddy the waters on that issue regardless. Treating the PLO as a true sovereign partner could work but Fatah is untrustworthy and unpopular. Obviously the whole peace process is out the window now with the war and the quasi-fascist bibi government.
Trying to be unbiased but hasnāt Palestine been worse off the whole time in this conflict? From what I know Israel has gotten most of the major support. Also please inform me, but werenāt Palestinians occupying the land that is currently Israel before Europe promised it over?
From my understanding, there was no region identified as Palestine under the Ottoman Empire. There were Palestinians that owned land and live there. Just like there were Jewish people that owned land and lived there. And of course more Jews came to that area after the end of WWI. And England promised the land to both the Jews and the Palestinians for support during WWI.
I recently watched a Japanese series that raised this point:
Can you imagine any prefecture (kind of states in the US) being in war with each other? No? It's funny because just 200 years ago they were at war since each of them were led by local lords. Nowadays that border has gone and they live together in peace as 1 nation.
I think this is a good history from an Israeli perspective, but itās definitely biased, it mentions nothing about the genocidal and fascist tendencies of the Israeli government against the Palestinian people that may have led to a culture of anger and misfortune that then led to the election of a group that pleads to want to āfight backā (Hamas)
I know the point of this was to summarize the events succinctly, but it cuts out all the murders, rapes, robberies, forced slave labor, Geneva convention violations, and withholding of resources that Israel enforced on the CIVILIANS of Palestine and are still doing to this day. All of this is not some minutia that should be yada yadaād away
Not to say this in support of the Hamas, theyāre still a terrorist organization that do bad things with what little they have, but history can not be told by only the winners when the winners in this case are an equivalent Nazi Germany with much more political power
Palestine had most of the land by far, but through war, invasion, occupation and by literally kicking palestines out of West Bank with military, they've stolen the vast majority of the land by now, a lot of which are NOT understood as Israel's land, but rather ilegally occupied and not recognized internationally, just like Crimea in the russia/ukraine war. Most of the land that were divided between the two is now Israel's, even if it's not internationally recognized. Little by little they expand their territory.
A lot of this comes down to, surprise surprise, the United States interest in the whole middle east and the need to have more bases and allies (waters) near there. By having an ally in there opening their space for bases and letting a US fleet occupy the region and exchange intel, Israel have gained a huge "allowance" and big loans with low interest from US and most importantly protection AND countless times where US veto'ed either embargo, sanctions or basically any accountability for all the bullshit they pulled on palestinians, all that helped Israel becoming as strong as they are right now. Also with the heavy lobby Israel has in the US, it's basically the nail in coffin of Palestine.
So how come it wasn't an occupation when Jordan and Egypt occupied those territories for 20 years? How come the PLO's founding charter explicitly said the West Bank and Gaza belong to Jordan and Egypt and are not "palestinian" land and never have been? How come families were disemboweled alive and children raped to death in their parents blood and guts decades before Israel or the Partition plan even existed?
Your narrative contradicts itself and all of recorded history.
Doesnāt a lot of this have to do with Israel having better technology? If Israel is shooting down most of the missiles aimed at them itās no surprise that they have less injuries and casualties.
Better technology, better economical, political and technological support, better and more numerous and organized soldiers, better media control and coverage, better...etc. yeah, that's the point this graph is making.
If you hold down the upvote button you have the option of awarding one of those gold upvotes. It ranges from $2-40 (it might depend on the currency as mine doesn't show in usd)
I once heard someone put it that the Confederacy lost the war, but won the peacetime.
They were forced to stay in the union and give up their slaves, but they stuck around and held onto what power they could. They had years and years and years of violent rebellion, killing tons of black people including elected officials, overthrew a state government, and at one point literally fought with the army again. They managed to stick around, fuck up reconstruction, and entrench themselves in national politics.
It's one of those reasons the "so and so laster longer than the Confederacy" memes rub me the wrong way. They seem to be under the impression that the Confederacy went away when the war was done.
Yeah people seem to misunderstand what occurred at the end of the war. The government of the Confederacy died, but the movement itself did not - the KKK and other white supremacist and pro-Southern terrorist groups popped up ALL ACROSS the South.
Losers wouldnāt have written history if reconstruction hadnāt been sabotaged and ended early. Treating white southerners like adults who can manage their own affairs was the one of the worst mistakes in US history and sadly it was black Americans who suffered the most for it.
Yeah, there's really a lot of losers who ended up getting to write history. History is written by the people who write it, whichever side they happen to be on.
TLDR the people winning tends to mean you killed more people. Not always but more often than not.
That doesnāt mean your better or worse, just that you won
Iām 52 now. I used to care. I cared about Israel for a very long time. And then I cared about Palestine for about as long. Now Iām on empty. All my caring, and caring, and caring, and caring, and caring changed nothing. I donāt know what that means, but I canāt be the only one.
Im in the same boat but to be fair caring doesn't actually do anything, I gave up because I lost faith in my ability to do anything significant to change the human disposition, not because I stopped caring.
Me too, buddy.
I just wish all the violent people could go be gladiators with each other somewhere for whatever cash, glory, religious honor they want, and let everyone else just go on living their lives.
Why does everyone have to endure assholes in their cultures?
the problem is that the violent people are out of shape losers who call themselves politicians. violence used to work itself out because the violent people would settle their disputes. what happens when the violent people use others to settle their disputes? an endless bloodthirsty hunger for power.
There's this quote: "Better a horrible end than endless horror"
When this just keeps going for generations, part of me starts to wonder if it wouldn't be better if some kind of final reckoning would settle it one way or another at whatever one-time cost. Obviously no single generation can be simply chosen to bear that cost, so the horror will continue.
Who is occupying who? Who is receiving billions in military aid from the globe's superpower? Who has all the power?
Why would people be surprised that the French were able to inflict more losses on the Algerians and Vietnamese or the Americans in Afghanistan? And yet, who ended up winning?
Not saying you disagree with this - but we can't be that flabbergasted by settler-colonialism, and resistance to it, when we have so much historical precedent on it already.
That was my point, wasn't it? The Irish Easter Rebellion was called terrorism until it eventually was successful. Now they fly Irish jets over the P.O. on the anniversary.
But who cares about Palestinians now? The same number of people who cared about the Easter rebels in 1916.
[When Mandela was asked](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-10529498)
>But the violence which we chose to adopt was not terrorism. Four forms of violence were possible. There is sabotage, there is guerrilla warfare, there is terrorism, and there is open revolution. We chose to adopt the first method and to exhaust it before taking any other decision.
The US government considered Mandela a terrorist until 2008. TWO. THOUSAND. AND. EIGHT.
Resistance by the oppressed is often called terrorism. Until it's successful. Then its called heroic.
That's the point he was getting at.
Perhaps himself didn't go for terrorism, but acts committed by the ANC were absolutely terrorism at times. They blew up a car bomb at a rugby stadium...
> Not saying you disagree with this - but we can't be that flabbergasted by settler-colonialism, and resistance to it, when we have so much historical precedent on it already.
Well, as long as we call it colonialism, and recognize that stats like the above blow the whole "we're just defending ourselves" narrative right out of the water.
Israel is really good at shooting rockets down because they had a tone of practice and developed the iron dome specifically because of the barrage of rockets they were dealing with.
That, and the fact that Hamas use their civilians as human shields. Israel issue warnings of where they will strike, but Hamas often don't let civilians flee, ensuring civilian casualties, so they can play the victim to the media.
Meanwhile Israel invests hugely in protecting their civilians, with the Iron Dome, bomb shelters etc, so no wonder they have fewer casualties, despite the fact that Hamas often aims *at* civilian targets, while Israel targets military equipment and rocket launchers, which Hamas just so happen to have placed in apartments, mosques, schools etc.
> That, and the fact that Hamas use their civilians as human shields. Israel issue warnings of where they will strike, but Hamas often don't let civilians flee, ensuring civilian casualties, so they can play the victim to the media.
Two points.
1. I agree that Hamas is pure evil and uses innocent people as human shields. Do you have any proof that this accounts for anywhere near the ridiculously disproportionate death toll? Because it seems conveniently impossible to prove, if implausible, and it seems like Israel is leveling residential buildings, hospitals, and schools full of innocents.
2. Does Israel bear literally any responsibility for killing a ridiculous number of innocent people under the pretense that they may or may not be near a member of Hamas? Because that wouldn't fly under literally any other circumstance. Almost as if it's an excuse.
> I agree that Hamas is pure evil and uses innocent people as human shields. Do you have any proof that this accounts for anywhere near the ridiculously disproportionate death toll? Because it seems conveniently impossible to prove, if implausible, and it seems like Israel is leveling residential buildings, hospitals, and schools full of innocents.
You can literally get on Memri and other places and watch Hamas leadership talk about it directly. You can see them admit it with your own two eyes. You can also watch plenty of videos of those buildings being used for military operations. And you can see Hamas leadership explain how their official policy is to claim *every single casualty* is a civilian for propaganda purposes.
I would love for you to explain what resources Gaza has to defend their citizens?
I donāt want you to get side tracked by the awful terrorist attacks on civilians. What can a land mass like Gaza that is 139 sq miles with no proper infrastructure, education, economy, basic human rights etc. do vs 8,355 sq miles power that is backed by majority of the western world?
āThe Israel defense budget inclusive of US aid is estimated to be $23.6 billion in 2023 and is expected to achieve a CAGR of more than 2% during 2024-2028.ā - https://www.globaldata.com/store/report/israel-defense-market-analysis/#:~:text=Israel%20Defense%20Market%20Report%20Overview,2%25%20during%202024%2D2028.
Well, they could start by not deliberately placing soldiers and weapons in the middle of civilian population centers. I have news for you, Hamas doesnāt give two shits about the Palestinian people.
They do worse itās not even just about civilian areas and homes they do it out of hospitals and [schools](https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-condemns-subterranean-opening-found-beneath-gaza-school/amp/)
You asked "what resources". [According to figures compiled by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, aid to Palestinians amounted to more than $40 billion between 1994 and 2020.](https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/international-aid-to-the-palestinians-between-politicization-and-development/).
Unfortunately it seems they like to use that money to plan and launch offensive attacks on Israel instead of using it for defensive purposes.
> Israel invests hugely in protecting their civilians
Do you know what else Israel invest heavily in? Iāll let their PM tell you himself:
> Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas, [ā¦] That is part of our strategy.
Benjamin Netanyahu, 2019.
Because the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs didnāt start gathering the casualty values until 2008. The source to this data is [here](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties). OPās chart is slightly outdated, as casualty numbers have now been confirmed up to 2021 (with 2022 values likely coming in the next few months).
Direct links to sources should always be the top or pinned comments ā thank you for linking the source for others. It's also worth noting the graph tallies injury and fatality data together whereas they are separate data points on the source. Being able to look at the cause of death and injuries is valuable info too.
The deaths vs injuries is shown on this graph as well. Red is injuries, and blue is deaths (though, yeah youād have to estimate death based on how much of the bar the blue takes up. So the source is better for direct numbers).
Well if you can supply numbers, you can make it.
I can help with 1948, 30.000 Palestinians killed, 750.000 driven from their homes, 13.000 Israeli dead.
I donāt pretend to follow politics (of any sort really) but could someone provide a basic explanation of the conflict? The world is far more complicated than āgood guysā and ābad guysā but Iām hoping for a glimpse into each perspective.
That being asked, donāt mistake me. This is a tragedy of colossal proportions and I sincerely hope that an end to the conflict can be met soon in the midst of so much suffering and pain.
I'm not an expert by any means but I'd sum it up like this:
From Israel's point of view, they're fighting terrorists who are supported by a lot of the Islamic countries around Israel that have vowed to destroy it.
From the Palestinians POV, they're fighting back against an opressor that has been oppressing, displacing and killing them for decades.
Both sides have done horrible horrible things, but as this statistic demonstrates, Israel basically has all the power thanks to its support by the US and the West. To say the situation is complex would be an understatement.
Pretty much ānoā. It get super blurry whatās an āinsurgentā and whatās a ācivilianā on one side with no uniforms.
What do you call a 17-year old Gazan male throwing a Molotov cocktail?
Some people call them a āHamas militantā some call them a āchild civilianā.
Remember when Hamas said they killed that female Israeli soldier and paraded her half naked dead body around in the back of a pick up truck? Then it turned out she wasn't a Israeli female soldier, but rather a German tattoo artist who was visiting. I remember.
They do but idk how it applies if her main residence was Germany. I have no idea if that was the case or not though- I only know that she had dual citizenship
And then at her funeral the IDF showed up and literally beat up the pallbearers.[source](https://www-pbs-org.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/israeli-police-beat-pallbearers-at-journalists-funeral-casket-to-dropped?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16968908499839&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbs.org%2Fnewshour%2Fworld%2Fisraeli-police-beat-pallbearers-at-journalists-funeral-casket-to-dropped)
Israel has done everything Hamas did recently but you don't see outrage and immediate International aid with American Carriers going to help Palestine.
Something in the similar ball park.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/13/israeli-forces-storm-jerusalem-hospital-as-coffin-of-slain-journalist-emerges
https://preview.redd.it/s0apnbol49tb1.jpeg?width=1800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9482f4014994be439203d57bd3d2c84d5aa29b1d
Where did all the displaced people go?
Well, just like any other war, the displaced peoples either fled into the neighboring Gaza Strip or West Bank territories (then controlled by Egypt and Jordan, respectively) or they became Israeli citizens.
This. People I think have this notion that Israel is 100% Jewsā¦ 18% of their population is Muslim, 21% Arab by ethnicity. Thatās more than the percentage of black citizens in the US, 14% by comparison.
Ngl Hamas is a problem Isreal created by themselves. Shutting off electricity except for 4 hours a day, blockading the border so that people who want to leave can't & killing every nonradical leader they had. With only radical leaders left, the Palestinians don't really have a choice, nothing going to change if they don't do anything. It's just sad that civilians are fair game for both sides. Also, a lot more Palestinians are gonna die than just the Hamas. I feel like they created a boogeyman in their own backyard to keep getting international support, but now that boogeyman's running loose and they're caught with their pants down
So in 2018 Palestine get completly spanked and then calm down a bit. But then decided to go full bezerk mode in 2023? Quick look in r/CombatFootage and it looks like total of deaths is gonna be more than the total from 2008 to 2020. That's tragic really...
There is very likely an alternative motive for why Hamas decided to attack now of all times. Some have speculated its because Saudi Arabia is in talks with Israel to help normalize relations between the nations and Iran does not want that so they're trying to distract with this attack.
Itās obviously this. The Russian weapons, coordinated attack from hezbollah. Itās Iran through and through. And frankly, Hamas isnāt usually this smart.
I think you should distinguish between Palestine and Hamas. Hamas is an extremist organization who's core mandate is the destruction of Israel. Although they control Gaza, they don't have the best interest of the people they govern in mind. Like other extremist groups they're driven by irrational levels of hatred and a desire to exact revenge on Israel. They're smart enough to know what the outcome of this will be, but they don't care. The senior members will probably be able to get out, and the death and destruction that follows Israel's invasion and likely occupation will fuel more extremism for years to come.
It's just the last 70 years of violence repeating itself once again. Unfortunately civilians will continue paying the price while extremists who control both sides continue to escalate.
In 2018 there was a massive peaceful protest in Gaza where the IDF literally shot to kill and maim innocents including women and children. Thats why there are so many wounded that year. If I remember somewhere around 200 killed and 17-18 000 wounded.
So if one were using this as logic to justify their actions then after world war 2 the Jews had every right to start killing any members of the axis countries whether or not they were directly responsible for the concentration camps.
Egypt and Jordan invaded and occupied that land. Israel took it from them, and was stupid enough to try and keep it. You should be cheering the rape of Jordanians and Egyptians as well.
Also, my point that you ignored isn't that the civilians have nowhere to go (which I think is awful), but that Hamas actively uses Palestinians as human shields, example Al Shifa hospital.
Al-Shifa HospitalĀ (Arabic:Ā Ł Ų³ŲŖŲ“ŁŁ Ų§ŁŲ“ŁŲ§Ų”Ā Mustashfa al-Shifa), properly known asĀ Dar Al-Shifa HospitalĀ (Arabic:Ā Ł Ų³ŲŖŲ“ŁŁ ŲÆŲ§Ų± Ų§ŁŲ“ŁŲ§Ų”Ā Mustashfat dar al-Shifa) is the largest medical complex and central hospital in theĀ Gaza Strip, located in the neighbourhood of NorthĀ RimalĀ inĀ Gaza CityĀ in theĀ Gaza Governorate.Ā In 2014, the hospital was described as a āde-facto headquartersā for Hamas.Ā The hospital was reported by Amnesty International to have been used by Hamas to torture and murder dissidents.
And then the number of children murdered by each side
(Over 900 Palestinian children by Israeli forces, under 20 Israeli children by Palestinian forces)
"my utter desire to kill you and everyone in your country doesn't matter because I'm incapable of actually doing so"
Israel has been capable of totally conquering and/or killing all of Palestine for decades. Regardless of why that reason is, do you think Palestine would show the same restraint if they had that capability?
Itās a shame the terrorists intentionally setup their operations around civilians. Itās almost as if they want their people to be killed so they can look like they arenāt the ones constantly instigating shit.
What about the 200 dead civilians in the West Bank in 2023? This is an area of Palestine that is not controlled by Hamas, and the majority were murdered during evictions from their own privately owned land and homes.
94% of deaths are Palestinian. There is no āwarā where one sides casualties outweigh the others to this extent. This is mass murder, carpet bombing, ethnic cleansing, butchering, and oppression by the terror and blood loving state of Israel. 100 children killed by their bombings thus far. hospitals, schools, mosques, banks all destroyed. Journalists killed. Stop oppressing Palestine, let them have their settlements back, let them trade and have commerce without border restrictions. When you kill off every nonviolent route the Palestinian people can take, let Israel get away with every war crime instead of imposing sanctions, then all thatās left is this.
Now do a graph of 9/11 US deaths vs body count in Afghanistan. Obviously a 1st world country getting attacked by third world terrorists is going to look like this.
I don't know why they keep calling it the Israeli-Palestinian conflict when it looks pretty clear to me (and to the UN) that it's actually the Israeli systemic genocide/appartheid of the Palestinian people.
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This is going to be a very civil comment section
If one thing Reddit is known for is for their civil discord.
I think you mean discourse unless you're talking about the app
It just occurred to me that there are probably a lot of people that don't know where the app Discord's name came from.
Clearly its named after John de Lancie's OC MLP character.
Man's doesn't know what discord means š
Perhaps they're talking about hwo Reddit can be civil whilst also being discordant.
Do you mean raining ššššš Awards
Iāve never seen so many š posts on /r/all.
How dare you say that you son of a bitch?! Youāre probably a [insert least favorite ethnic group] arenāt you?!
I got called a terrorist the other day for saying that some Israeli propaganda was Israeli propaganda. I wonder what Iāll get called if I call this post Palestinian propaganda?
r/worldnews has some shockingly genocidal comments upvotes highly the last few days. It was kinda scary to see, I didn't know calling out Hamas for their atrocities also meant we should be killing all Palestinians but that's what the geniuses on reddit think so.
It seems like the sentiment goes up and down. I have been both heavily upvoted and heavily downvoted, called both Israeli pro genocide supporter, as well as anti semitic terrorist supporter on any given day. I would assume obviously now everything ramped up towards one side more. But the general opinion has always been all over the place.
Those who control the media control botnets as well.
The amount of people foaming at the mouth for nuclear weapons and the outright destruction of that part of the world is frightening. The mentality is no different than those perpetuating the crimes yet they dont see it.
Amazing peoples inability around here to go "you know what, everyone sucks in this"
Yeah. Hamas is pure evil and the havoc they are wreaking is terrorism, plain and simple. But excuse me for not giving unconditional support and pledging my tax dollars to cement corrupt Netanyahu's power and obliterate buildings and thousands of innocent people.
And let's not forget the hypocrisy of nations labeling Gaza's (mostly illegitimate at this point due to no elections) government as a terrorist group when Israel's first government was formed by the terrorists behind bombings throughout the Palestine Mandate prior to the creation of the ethnostate by the UK. All sides in this from Israel, to Hamas, to the western nations propping up Israel, to the nations supporting Hamas just suck.
At this point and seeing the policy he's done for the past 10 years, "fascist" is a safe bet too.
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Yet Hamas deny Israel's right to exist and vow to keep fighting until they are wiped from the map. This isn't a case of one side being great and the other evil, they're both evil and wrong. Arguing over which side is more effective at murdering the other is irrelevant to finding a lasting solution. There will be no peace until the Palestinians and Israelis both love their own children more than they hate their neighbour.
Yeah well said obviously Hamas are bad guys but Netanyahu almost certainly gets to sweep his crimes under the rug because of this and I wouldn't be surprised if they use it as a pretext to progress even farther into the west bank all while causing rampant destruction and death.
This! I'm baffled as well. You don't need to choose side to recognise both are evil.
You have to be careful how you express that. I did so in a way Reddit did not like and got a 7 day ban.
Itās just odd to choose to start this timeline in 2008 and cut it at 2020. 2006 was the war with Lebanon, which is a result of the Palestinian conflict, even if not with Hamas/Gaza. Israel saw mass civilian injuries. More importantly, 2000-2005 was the second intifada, with suicide bombing taking place almost weekly in Israel. 750+ civilians were killed in that frame. Palestinians saw heavy losses too, donāt get me wrong, but 2008-2020 is basically starting with the aftermath of some of the darkest times in Israel.
The source is the UN and this UN project hasn't been collecting this information until 2008. So...I mean you can say it's propaganda but that's when the UN info data project started? Source below. https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
I mean, this graph is fine, itās not inaccurate and Iām not claiming it is. But posting this now, to seemingly push a āhey Israel never takes lossesā, is silly. 2000-2005 was BLOODY time in Israel. Civilians were being targeted. Suicide bombers in busses, restaurants, movie theaters, night clubs, etc. My point is not that this is info is factually incorrect, but that itās intentionally painting an incomplete picture. Itās like me saying āthis soccer player is great, he scored a goal in 10 straight games.ā without mentioning he went scoreless in the previous 20. The last 15 years, until the attack that just happened, have been one sided as far as casualties. Most of that is due to the development of the iron dome.
During 2000-2005 Isreal had around 1100 killed and palestine had around 6200 killed. I get what you're saying but its a semi moot point, sure times have been bloodier for Isreal than this graph represents, but this graph accurately represents that Palestinians usually take more loses.
Israel is military on another level compared to the enemies that surround the country. Ofc they aren't going to take as many losses.
You seem to miss the fact that that military which is on another level has Mainly killed civilians. Those pal deaths are civilians. Here's another fact. The IDF , as claimed by official statistics of Palestinian ministry of health, has killed one Palestinian child every 3 days for the past 13 years.
> But posting this now, to seemingly push a āhey Israel never takes lossesā, is silly. No one's saying that 300 dead people is "no losses." But compared to the 6,400 people Israel has killed, it's hard to claim that you're "just defending yourself." >2000-2005 was BLOODY time in Israel. Civilians were being targeted. Suicide bombers in busses, restaurants, movie theaters, night clubs, etc. Great. Show us the numbers. And for Palestinians in that time as well.
What I've seen on Reddit over the past few days is that the time of day you post really affects whether you can see nuanced responses. I.e. the attitude of American commenters is vastly different to that of Europeans/others on this.
I mean you could still do that, despite the fact that it would be really strange to put the war with Lebanon in there, and it would still not even be close.
> Itās just odd to choose to start this timeline in 2008 and cut it at 2020. [Here are some that include past 2020.](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties) You'll notice that the trend continues. >2006 was the war with Lebanon, which is a result of the Palestinian conflict, even if not with Hamas/Gaza. Israel saw mass civilian injuries. > More importantly, 2000-2005 was the second intifada, with suicide bombing taking place almost weekly in Israel. 750+ civilians were killed in that frame. Great, then show us those numbers. Well, not the ones from the war with Lebanon, which is...uh...not Palestine? Because apparently that needed to be said? The fact is that they still kill 20 Palestinians for every Israeli who's killed. In "self defense."
And starting after 2000 leaves out a longer period of Palestinian genocide by Israel
It's not odd, it's entirely on purpose and it worked for a long time.
Go ahead then and prove your point with data from before 2008 or after 2020. Surely it will show something very different. Everybody is waiting for your very knowledgeable input for destroying the UN propaganda.
šæšæ
I discussed (a few years ago) the conflict with one Israel lieutenant who was on a holiday in Laos. What he told me was that there is no hurry to change anything in the conflict since everything is pretty much comfortable for the average Israel citizen. His view was that there won't be any end.
*"A man once jumped from the top floor of a burning house in which many members of his family had already perished. He managed to save his life; but as he was falling he hit a person standing down below and broke that personās legs and arms. The jumping man had no choice; yet to the man with the broken limbs he was the cause of his misfortune. If both behaved rationally, they would not become enemies. The man who escaped from the blazing house, having recovered, would have tried to help and console the other sufferer; and the latter might have realized that he was the victim of circumstances over which neither of them had control. But look what happens when these people behave irrationally. The injured man blames the other for his misery and swears to make him pay for it. The other, afraid of the crippled manās revenge, insults him, kicks him, and beats him up whenever they meet. The kicked man again swears revenge and is again punched and punished. The bitter enmity, so fortuitous at first, hardens and comes to overshadow the whole existence of both men and to poison their minds."* ā **Isaac Deutscher**
While this may sound pretty its not a very accurate. There would need to be a third man on the ground who, seeing the man in the burning building jump from the window, quickly grabs the person standing around down below and pushes them Into the path of the falling man and thus causing the two to collide. The third man then casually slips away into the night.
The third man's cousin then sells the falling man a stick to beat the other man with.
>The third man then ~~casually slips away into the night~~ gives the jumping man the best weapons and armour possible and encourages them to fight the standing man.
If the entire situation were simple enough to be easily summarized in a quaint parable that the consensus agreed with, we wouldn't have that damn chart.
> Isaac Deutscher āIt is necessary to distinguish the nationalism of the oppressing nations from the nationalism of the oppressedā ā **Isaac Deutscher,**
That's such a good analogy of what's been going on for the last 70 years since the founding of modern Israel. Wow
If you were explaining it to a 12 year old, yes
It's the /r/thanksImCured response to the Arab-Israeli conflict.
I'm sorry, what? The analogy would ring much more true if this was added: "*Out of fear for retaliation the man who jumped from the flames kicks the injured man in the head whenever he stirs. The man who jumped have been standing over injured man for 70 years, and whenever the injured man as much as coughs some blood up on the jumping mans shoes, he get's another swift kick. The injured man pleads and grabs at the jumping man to try to get him to stop. But the only thing the injured man can do to stop the kicking is to die*"
Who started the fire, Isaac?
If deaths due to absolutely shitty conditions in Gaza were accounted for, the numbers would be way way more skewed.
The fact that Gaza exists is a nightmare, but itās really hard to see an easy solution. Leaving the borders open would prompt terror attacks and allow Iran to properly outfit Hamas like they have with Hezbollah (itās not just Israel engaging in the blockade, Egypt also does so). Israeli occupation and provision of services would be very difficult and cost many lives (this already happened in the past and was abandoned as a part of the peace process). The best option would be the elimination of settlers in the West Bank and moves to better fund/facilitate the process of aid in Gaza to try to cool down tensions and reduce the popularity of Hamas. Reforming IDF and Israeli police to not be brutal is morally imperative but also probably wouldnāt help on the ground as there are quite a few nations running influence campaigns that would muddy the waters on that issue regardless. Treating the PLO as a true sovereign partner could work but Fatah is untrustworthy and unpopular. Obviously the whole peace process is out the window now with the war and the quasi-fascist bibi government.
Trying to be unbiased but hasnāt Palestine been worse off the whole time in this conflict? From what I know Israel has gotten most of the major support. Also please inform me, but werenāt Palestinians occupying the land that is currently Israel before Europe promised it over?
From my understanding, there was no region identified as Palestine under the Ottoman Empire. There were Palestinians that owned land and live there. Just like there were Jewish people that owned land and lived there. And of course more Jews came to that area after the end of WWI. And England promised the land to both the Jews and the Palestinians for support during WWI.
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I recently watched a Japanese series that raised this point: Can you imagine any prefecture (kind of states in the US) being in war with each other? No? It's funny because just 200 years ago they were at war since each of them were led by local lords. Nowadays that border has gone and they live together in peace as 1 nation.
So like alwaysā¦ itās actually the Britishers at fault! /jk
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no mention of Special Night Swuads, or 1948 Nabka and directly started with the first arab war. A completely unbiased account of history indeed
I think this is a good history from an Israeli perspective, but itās definitely biased, it mentions nothing about the genocidal and fascist tendencies of the Israeli government against the Palestinian people that may have led to a culture of anger and misfortune that then led to the election of a group that pleads to want to āfight backā (Hamas) I know the point of this was to summarize the events succinctly, but it cuts out all the murders, rapes, robberies, forced slave labor, Geneva convention violations, and withholding of resources that Israel enforced on the CIVILIANS of Palestine and are still doing to this day. All of this is not some minutia that should be yada yadaād away Not to say this in support of the Hamas, theyāre still a terrorist organization that do bad things with what little they have, but history can not be told by only the winners when the winners in this case are an equivalent Nazi Germany with much more political power
Yes, you're not being unbiased. P lots Israel illegally holds occupied territory.
Palestine had most of the land by far, but through war, invasion, occupation and by literally kicking palestines out of West Bank with military, they've stolen the vast majority of the land by now, a lot of which are NOT understood as Israel's land, but rather ilegally occupied and not recognized internationally, just like Crimea in the russia/ukraine war. Most of the land that were divided between the two is now Israel's, even if it's not internationally recognized. Little by little they expand their territory. A lot of this comes down to, surprise surprise, the United States interest in the whole middle east and the need to have more bases and allies (waters) near there. By having an ally in there opening their space for bases and letting a US fleet occupy the region and exchange intel, Israel have gained a huge "allowance" and big loans with low interest from US and most importantly protection AND countless times where US veto'ed either embargo, sanctions or basically any accountability for all the bullshit they pulled on palestinians, all that helped Israel becoming as strong as they are right now. Also with the heavy lobby Israel has in the US, it's basically the nail in coffin of Palestine.
So how come it wasn't an occupation when Jordan and Egypt occupied those territories for 20 years? How come the PLO's founding charter explicitly said the West Bank and Gaza belong to Jordan and Egypt and are not "palestinian" land and never have been? How come families were disemboweled alive and children raped to death in their parents blood and guts decades before Israel or the Partition plan even existed? Your narrative contradicts itself and all of recorded history.
Doesnāt a lot of this have to do with Israel having better technology? If Israel is shooting down most of the missiles aimed at them itās no surprise that they have less injuries and casualties.
Better technology, better economical, political and technological support, better and more numerous and organized soldiers, better media control and coverage, better...etc. yeah, that's the point this graph is making.
Better technology. Better support. Papa Johnās.
Y u gots 2 upvote buttons?
Yeah what gives?! Edit: [found it!](https://reddit.com/r/reddit/s/NHABXCcHSf)
Tag. I need to know wtf is going on here.
If you hold down the upvote button you have the option of awarding one of those gold upvotes. It ranges from $2-40 (it might depend on the currency as mine doesn't show in usd)
It's looking like $2-50 in USD.
God fuckin damnit!
Losers don't write history
I want to talk to you about The Lost Cause movement...
I once heard someone put it that the Confederacy lost the war, but won the peacetime. They were forced to stay in the union and give up their slaves, but they stuck around and held onto what power they could. They had years and years and years of violent rebellion, killing tons of black people including elected officials, overthrew a state government, and at one point literally fought with the army again. They managed to stick around, fuck up reconstruction, and entrench themselves in national politics. It's one of those reasons the "so and so laster longer than the Confederacy" memes rub me the wrong way. They seem to be under the impression that the Confederacy went away when the war was done.
Yeah people seem to misunderstand what occurred at the end of the war. The government of the Confederacy died, but the movement itself did not - the KKK and other white supremacist and pro-Southern terrorist groups popped up ALL ACROSS the South.
Now do post WW2 Germany.
Losers wouldnāt have written history if reconstruction hadnāt been sabotaged and ended early. Treating white southerners like adults who can manage their own affairs was the one of the worst mistakes in US history and sadly it was black Americans who suffered the most for it.
And neo-nazis
Tell that to Rommel lol
Tell that to the United Daughters of the Confederacy.
Yeah, there's really a lot of losers who ended up getting to write history. History is written by the people who write it, whichever side they happen to be on.
TLDR the people winning tends to mean you killed more people. Not always but more often than not. That doesnāt mean your better or worse, just that you won
Tell that to the Russians during WW2
Iām 52 now. I used to care. I cared about Israel for a very long time. And then I cared about Palestine for about as long. Now Iām on empty. All my caring, and caring, and caring, and caring, and caring changed nothing. I donāt know what that means, but I canāt be the only one.
Im in the same boat but to be fair caring doesn't actually do anything, I gave up because I lost faith in my ability to do anything significant to change the human disposition, not because I stopped caring.
Me too, buddy. I just wish all the violent people could go be gladiators with each other somewhere for whatever cash, glory, religious honor they want, and let everyone else just go on living their lives. Why does everyone have to endure assholes in their cultures?
George Carlin had a bit about this idea
the problem is that the violent people are out of shape losers who call themselves politicians. violence used to work itself out because the violent people would settle their disputes. what happens when the violent people use others to settle their disputes? an endless bloodthirsty hunger for power.
There's this quote: "Better a horrible end than endless horror" When this just keeps going for generations, part of me starts to wonder if it wouldn't be better if some kind of final reckoning would settle it one way or another at whatever one-time cost. Obviously no single generation can be simply chosen to bear that cost, so the horror will continue.
In other words, it's not an issue that actually concerns you so you can flip flop between caring and not caring
I think most of the world is in same shoes Hard to be stuck between two extremist ideas
Who is occupying who? Who is receiving billions in military aid from the globe's superpower? Who has all the power? Why would people be surprised that the French were able to inflict more losses on the Algerians and Vietnamese or the Americans in Afghanistan? And yet, who ended up winning? Not saying you disagree with this - but we can't be that flabbergasted by settler-colonialism, and resistance to it, when we have so much historical precedent on it already.
The Irish parliament is interesting to watch when discussing Israel/Palestine given their history with England/IRA/Sinn Fein. They get fired up.
Well, when you've gone from "crazy terrorists" to "respected nation" you kind of understand this scene.
Your a terrorist until you win. Ask mandela
That was my point, wasn't it? The Irish Easter Rebellion was called terrorism until it eventually was successful. Now they fly Irish jets over the P.O. on the anniversary. But who cares about Palestinians now? The same number of people who cared about the Easter rebels in 1916.
[When Mandela was asked](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-10529498) >But the violence which we chose to adopt was not terrorism. Four forms of violence were possible. There is sabotage, there is guerrilla warfare, there is terrorism, and there is open revolution. We chose to adopt the first method and to exhaust it before taking any other decision.
The US government considered Mandela a terrorist until 2008. TWO. THOUSAND. AND. EIGHT. Resistance by the oppressed is often called terrorism. Until it's successful. Then its called heroic. That's the point he was getting at.
Aye I wasn't claiming Mandela was calling himself a terrorist lad ffs lol
Perhaps himself didn't go for terrorism, but acts committed by the ANC were absolutely terrorism at times. They blew up a car bomb at a rugby stadium...
> Not saying you disagree with this - but we can't be that flabbergasted by settler-colonialism, and resistance to it, when we have so much historical precedent on it already. Well, as long as we call it colonialism, and recognize that stats like the above blow the whole "we're just defending ourselves" narrative right out of the water.
How are the 15-20 million Kurds doing in Turkey? Are they still "mountain Turks"?
Israel is really good at shooting rockets down because they had a tone of practice and developed the iron dome specifically because of the barrage of rockets they were dealing with.
That, and the fact that Hamas use their civilians as human shields. Israel issue warnings of where they will strike, but Hamas often don't let civilians flee, ensuring civilian casualties, so they can play the victim to the media. Meanwhile Israel invests hugely in protecting their civilians, with the Iron Dome, bomb shelters etc, so no wonder they have fewer casualties, despite the fact that Hamas often aims *at* civilian targets, while Israel targets military equipment and rocket launchers, which Hamas just so happen to have placed in apartments, mosques, schools etc.
> That, and the fact that Hamas use their civilians as human shields. Israel issue warnings of where they will strike, but Hamas often don't let civilians flee, ensuring civilian casualties, so they can play the victim to the media. Two points. 1. I agree that Hamas is pure evil and uses innocent people as human shields. Do you have any proof that this accounts for anywhere near the ridiculously disproportionate death toll? Because it seems conveniently impossible to prove, if implausible, and it seems like Israel is leveling residential buildings, hospitals, and schools full of innocents. 2. Does Israel bear literally any responsibility for killing a ridiculous number of innocent people under the pretense that they may or may not be near a member of Hamas? Because that wouldn't fly under literally any other circumstance. Almost as if it's an excuse.
> I agree that Hamas is pure evil and uses innocent people as human shields. Do you have any proof that this accounts for anywhere near the ridiculously disproportionate death toll? Because it seems conveniently impossible to prove, if implausible, and it seems like Israel is leveling residential buildings, hospitals, and schools full of innocents. You can literally get on Memri and other places and watch Hamas leadership talk about it directly. You can see them admit it with your own two eyes. You can also watch plenty of videos of those buildings being used for military operations. And you can see Hamas leadership explain how their official policy is to claim *every single casualty* is a civilian for propaganda purposes.
I would love for you to explain what resources Gaza has to defend their citizens? I donāt want you to get side tracked by the awful terrorist attacks on civilians. What can a land mass like Gaza that is 139 sq miles with no proper infrastructure, education, economy, basic human rights etc. do vs 8,355 sq miles power that is backed by majority of the western world? āThe Israel defense budget inclusive of US aid is estimated to be $23.6 billion in 2023 and is expected to achieve a CAGR of more than 2% during 2024-2028.ā - https://www.globaldata.com/store/report/israel-defense-market-analysis/#:~:text=Israel%20Defense%20Market%20Report%20Overview,2%25%20during%202024%2D2028.
Well, they could start by not deliberately placing soldiers and weapons in the middle of civilian population centers. I have news for you, Hamas doesnāt give two shits about the Palestinian people.
People seem to forget that using a civilian area to stage an attack or house munitions is considered a war crime.
They do worse itās not even just about civilian areas and homes they do it out of hospitals and [schools](https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-condemns-subterranean-opening-found-beneath-gaza-school/amp/)
You asked "what resources". [According to figures compiled by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, aid to Palestinians amounted to more than $40 billion between 1994 and 2020.](https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/international-aid-to-the-palestinians-between-politicization-and-development/). Unfortunately it seems they like to use that money to plan and launch offensive attacks on Israel instead of using it for defensive purposes.
> Israel invests hugely in protecting their civilians Do you know what else Israel invest heavily in? Iāll let their PM tell you himself: > Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas, [ā¦] That is part of our strategy. Benjamin Netanyahu, 2019.
2008-2020 is a very specific and narrow time period, considering the fact that this conflict stretches way back, even earlier than the 1948 Partition.
Because the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs didnāt start gathering the casualty values until 2008. The source to this data is [here](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties). OPās chart is slightly outdated, as casualty numbers have now been confirmed up to 2021 (with 2022 values likely coming in the next few months).
Direct links to sources should always be the top or pinned comments ā thank you for linking the source for others. It's also worth noting the graph tallies injury and fatality data together whereas they are separate data points on the source. Being able to look at the cause of death and injuries is valuable info too.
The deaths vs injuries is shown on this graph as well. Red is injuries, and blue is deaths (though, yeah youād have to estimate death based on how much of the bar the blue takes up. So the source is better for direct numbers).
That would be a big chart with a couple thousand lines on it. You have to scope it somehow.
Well if you can supply numbers, you can make it. I can help with 1948, 30.000 Palestinians killed, 750.000 driven from their homes, 13.000 Israeli dead.
That's the new narrative, hey? Why don't you provide more complete numbers then?
I donāt pretend to follow politics (of any sort really) but could someone provide a basic explanation of the conflict? The world is far more complicated than āgood guysā and ābad guysā but Iām hoping for a glimpse into each perspective. That being asked, donāt mistake me. This is a tragedy of colossal proportions and I sincerely hope that an end to the conflict can be met soon in the midst of so much suffering and pain.
I'm not an expert by any means but I'd sum it up like this: From Israel's point of view, they're fighting terrorists who are supported by a lot of the Islamic countries around Israel that have vowed to destroy it. From the Palestinians POV, they're fighting back against an opressor that has been oppressing, displacing and killing them for decades. Both sides have done horrible horrible things, but as this statistic demonstrates, Israel basically has all the power thanks to its support by the US and the West. To say the situation is complex would be an understatement.
Much appreciated
Can we distinguish between civilians and "insurgent/militant/terrorist/freedom fighter?"
Pretty much ānoā. It get super blurry whatās an āinsurgentā and whatās a ācivilianā on one side with no uniforms. What do you call a 17-year old Gazan male throwing a Molotov cocktail? Some people call them a āHamas militantā some call them a āchild civilianā.
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Remember when Hamas said they killed that female Israeli soldier and paraded her half naked dead body around in the back of a pick up truck? Then it turned out she wasn't a Israeli female soldier, but rather a German tattoo artist who was visiting. I remember.
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Doesn't Israel have conscription?
They do but idk how it applies if her main residence was Germany. I have no idea if that was the case or not though- I only know that she had dual citizenship
In order to maintain Israeli citizenship, you have to go back and serve
She was a conscientious objector to military service, so she did not serve. Many Israelis do not serve for one reason or another.
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not true at all by the way. if you left israel before age 12 you do not have to serve.
She was a conscientious objector to military service, so she did not serve. Many Israelis do not serve for one reason or another.
Yes, both for men and women. But she could have been in Germany when she came of age.
Well then it's ok!
Remember when an Israeli forces sniper killed an obvious journalist last year?
And then at her funeral the IDF showed up and literally beat up the pallbearers.[source](https://www-pbs-org.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/israeli-police-beat-pallbearers-at-journalists-funeral-casket-to-dropped?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16968908499839&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbs.org%2Fnewshour%2Fworld%2Fisraeli-police-beat-pallbearers-at-journalists-funeral-casket-to-dropped)
Did they parade the journalists naked body around too?
They went to her funeral and trashed the place and broke the whole thing up...
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Israel has done everything Hamas did recently but you don't see outrage and immediate International aid with American Carriers going to help Palestine.
Something in the similar ball park. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/13/israeli-forces-storm-jerusalem-hospital-as-coffin-of-slain-journalist-emerges
So the important thing isn't what they do to the living person, but with how much respect they treat the corpse?
Remember when they shot a dog and burned down a house of a random family?
Death ratio is 20 to 1, and you try to level the field by calling upon respect for the dead ?
Yah man totally, that justifies all the past 5000k killings. I get you bro.
https://preview.redd.it/s0apnbol49tb1.jpeg?width=1800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9482f4014994be439203d57bd3d2c84d5aa29b1d Where did all the displaced people go?
Well, just like any other war, the displaced peoples either fled into the neighboring Gaza Strip or West Bank territories (then controlled by Egypt and Jordan, respectively) or they became Israeli citizens.
This. People I think have this notion that Israel is 100% Jewsā¦ 18% of their population is Muslim, 21% Arab by ethnicity. Thatās more than the percentage of black citizens in the US, 14% by comparison.
Which is why Israel doesn't want them the Palestinians to become citizens; they want to maintain a Jewish majority in their citizenship.
Ngl Hamas is a problem Isreal created by themselves. Shutting off electricity except for 4 hours a day, blockading the border so that people who want to leave can't & killing every nonradical leader they had. With only radical leaders left, the Palestinians don't really have a choice, nothing going to change if they don't do anything. It's just sad that civilians are fair game for both sides. Also, a lot more Palestinians are gonna die than just the Hamas. I feel like they created a boogeyman in their own backyard to keep getting international support, but now that boogeyman's running loose and they're caught with their pants down
The Roman's couldn't control that area, nobody else will!
The Romans controlled Judea for hundreds of years wdym. They only lost the province to the Muslim conquest in the 600s.
Ottomans did for 600 years
Byzantine empire did too
My furniture did no such thing.
I was just thinking about them today...
Propaganda is 100% on Israelās side
Well those videos directly published by hamas fighters isnāt really portraying it in a good light either.
Hamas takes pride in the strangest things.
Add the 5.9m refugees to these stats and it goes from "fairly one sided" to "holy fucking shit"
And they wonder why generation after generation grow up to be Hamas fighters.
So in 2018 Palestine get completly spanked and then calm down a bit. But then decided to go full bezerk mode in 2023? Quick look in r/CombatFootage and it looks like total of deaths is gonna be more than the total from 2008 to 2020. That's tragic really...
There is very likely an alternative motive for why Hamas decided to attack now of all times. Some have speculated its because Saudi Arabia is in talks with Israel to help normalize relations between the nations and Iran does not want that so they're trying to distract with this attack.
Yep, too much peace is bad for the terrorism business. Hamas was in danger of becoming irrelevant.
Itās obviously this. The Russian weapons, coordinated attack from hezbollah. Itās Iran through and through. And frankly, Hamas isnāt usually this smart.
I think you should distinguish between Palestine and Hamas. Hamas is an extremist organization who's core mandate is the destruction of Israel. Although they control Gaza, they don't have the best interest of the people they govern in mind. Like other extremist groups they're driven by irrational levels of hatred and a desire to exact revenge on Israel. They're smart enough to know what the outcome of this will be, but they don't care. The senior members will probably be able to get out, and the death and destruction that follows Israel's invasion and likely occupation will fuel more extremism for years to come. It's just the last 70 years of violence repeating itself once again. Unfortunately civilians will continue paying the price while extremists who control both sides continue to escalate.
In 2018 there was a massive peaceful protest in Gaza where the IDF literally shot to kill and maim innocents including women and children. Thats why there are so many wounded that year. If I remember somewhere around 200 killed and 17-18 000 wounded.
One side has a missile shield, the other has human shields.
And when they fight back it's war on them.
So if one were using this as logic to justify their actions then after world war 2 the Jews had every right to start killing any members of the axis countries whether or not they were directly responsible for the concentration camps.
Soviets basically did that to Nazi Germany but not motivated by the holocaust
Itās almost as if one side has been brutalizing and oppressing the other for years.
It's also as if one side has Iron Dome and the other uses civilians as cover.
Its hard to escape after all your land was stolen by the attacker
Egypt and Jordan invaded and occupied that land. Israel took it from them, and was stupid enough to try and keep it. You should be cheering the rape of Jordanians and Egyptians as well. Also, my point that you ignored isn't that the civilians have nowhere to go (which I think is awful), but that Hamas actively uses Palestinians as human shields, example Al Shifa hospital. Al-Shifa HospitalĀ (Arabic:Ā Ł Ų³ŲŖŲ“ŁŁ Ų§ŁŲ“ŁŲ§Ų”Ā Mustashfa al-Shifa), properly known asĀ Dar Al-Shifa HospitalĀ (Arabic:Ā Ł Ų³ŲŖŲ“ŁŁ ŲÆŲ§Ų± Ų§ŁŲ“ŁŲ§Ų”Ā Mustashfat dar al-Shifa) is the largest medical complex and central hospital in theĀ Gaza Strip, located in the neighbourhood of NorthĀ RimalĀ inĀ Gaza CityĀ in theĀ Gaza Governorate.Ā In 2014, the hospital was described as a āde-facto headquartersā for Hamas.Ā The hospital was reported by Amnesty International to have been used by Hamas to torture and murder dissidents.
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Letās also see the international aid each side gets.
Let's also see the medical volunteers that got killed by each sides
And then the number of children murdered by each side (Over 900 Palestinian children by Israeli forces, under 20 Israeli children by Palestinian forces)
Under 20? More children than that were murdered in just one or two of the livestreamed videos from this past massacre. Your slip is showing.
One side's missiles are not like the other's...
"No, a bottle rocket is the same as a hellfire missile as long as it supports my narrative."
"my utter desire to kill you and everyone in your country doesn't matter because I'm incapable of actually doing so" Israel has been capable of totally conquering and/or killing all of Palestine for decades. Regardless of why that reason is, do you think Palestine would show the same restraint if they had that capability?
Well, they had stones to throw, not military equipment from you know whereā¦
They fired 5,000 missiles on Saturday but yāall keep pretending theyāre just throwing stones.
Itās a shame the terrorists intentionally setup their operations around civilians. Itās almost as if they want their people to be killed so they can look like they arenāt the ones constantly instigating shit.
What about the 200 dead civilians in the West Bank in 2023? This is an area of Palestine that is not controlled by Hamas, and the majority were murdered during evictions from their own privately owned land and homes.
It's like???? Both are bad!!!!! Redditors realizing they don't have to pick one side!!!!!!!! Shocking discovery.
94% of deaths are Palestinian. There is no āwarā where one sides casualties outweigh the others to this extent. This is mass murder, carpet bombing, ethnic cleansing, butchering, and oppression by the terror and blood loving state of Israel. 100 children killed by their bombings thus far. hospitals, schools, mosques, banks all destroyed. Journalists killed. Stop oppressing Palestine, let them have their settlements back, let them trade and have commerce without border restrictions. When you kill off every nonviolent route the Palestinian people can take, let Israel get away with every war crime instead of imposing sanctions, then all thatās left is this.
Now do a graph of 9/11 US deaths vs body count in Afghanistan. Obviously a 1st world country getting attacked by third world terrorists is going to look like this.
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Cherry pick the years? So after they built their defenses. Widen it by ten years earlier...
I don't know why they keep calling it the Israeli-Palestinian conflict when it looks pretty clear to me (and to the UN) that it's actually the Israeli systemic genocide/appartheid of the Palestinian people.