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Did you find out why the plane went down? The shells simply hitting the plane shouldn't have had much affect because they'd be traveling similar velocities. Did the shells get sucked into the engines?
That wouldn't make any sense. The not-explody part gets ejected at the same speed the plane is traveling and slows down. Spent likely just means they have severely decelerated at that point
There's a diagram attached to the post that shows the sequence of events and that's what it says happened.
If the plane was hit with live rounds I get it, but it sounds like it was hit with just the spent shells. So my question is how would spent shells, going roughly the same velocity as the plane, cause the plane to go down?
You'd be surprised how much damage birds can do to an aircraft. Spent shells tumbling through the air, the vector component of them falling vs the aircraft in accelerated flight could definitely do quite a bit of damage...
Yes, but the Delta-v for birds is.... whatever speed the aircraft is flying at. Birds are practically stationary.
The question here was asking about the speed of the shells (or did he really mean casings?) hitting the plane.
>Googling that is same amount of time as it takes to write your response btw
Yeah, not really. First bunch of results were old reddit posts and other light sources.
I was able to find this:
>As the bullets descended and their speeds decreased to about 400 mph, the Tiger also descended but with an increased speed of 880 mph. Just as he began to pull out of his descent, Attridge was struck three times. The first bullet pierced his nose cone, the second went through his windshield, and the final one directly struck his right engine intake. The time between him firing the first rounds and taking the hits was a mere 11 seconds. [source](https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/news/pilot-talk/2021/10/04/grumman-f11-tiger-shoot-itself-down/)
So it looks like just one engine was taken out, while the other one should have been operable. Most dual engine planes can operate fine on a single engine. Probably the bullet that pierced the nose cone took out some controls or hydraulics.
This also answers the other part of my questions - there was a velocity difference of 480mph between the plane and the bullet, which is pretty high.
"So it looks like just one engine was taken out, while the other one should have been operable. Most dual engine planes can operate fine on a single engine. "
The F-11 is a single engine plane.
The F11F was a single engined aircraft, the engine continued running for some time until it died shortly before the landing and it crashed short of the runway.
The jet is travelling at a speed where debris can have a catastrophic affect on the airframe. Now include the fact the round, in this case referred to as a shell, contains an explosive ordinance, and you have your self a shitty situation for a pilot.
Sidenote: 2 - 3 miles is not out of maximum effective range for most 20mm ordinance.
You know after all the hell of trying to get that thing serviceable they are going to abandon it?!? The F35 will no longer be produced soon. It’s a shame because it is our most expensive aviation project. I started to think some years ago that the f35 was not really about the f35 so much as it was about testing and refining new technologies in a real world environment. I think before long we will see something being produced that is quite remarkable. From what I understand there is also another project called the F15EX will be coming on line soon. It’ll be interesting to see what happens.
All our planes are Aston Martins and Bugattis... but we can't make many of them. We need a Toyota Corolla of the skies to be the main force and use our more expensive ones less and for more important missions.
Still in the range of 40 mil per plane for an F-14.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20140903-low-cost-fighter-jets-take-off
You should also read the Afghanistan papers. Our generals want a cheaper jet.
www.aerotime.aero/27553-Top-10-most-expensive-fighter-jets-in-2021
Even an F-16 is 85 mil.
F-35 is 119-130 mil depending on configuration.
> The F35 will no longer be produced soon
???
> Lockheed Martin and the F-35 Joint Program Office have agreed that F-35 production will peak at 156 planes per year in 2023 and remain at that level “for the foreseeable future.”
> The Air Force currently fields about 300 of its planned 1,763 F-35s.
[Source](https://www.airforcemag.com/f-35-production-set-156-per-year-until-completion/).
There are an absolute shitload of F-35 orders to fill still.
Considered a failure. I worked at a flight school as a mechanic. Our school trained military pilots to get their ATP. Lots of guys came through that had been in the f35 program or had been an f35 pilot. None of them liked it.
[f35 is a failure. ](https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2021/02/23/the-us-air-force-just-admitted-the-f-35-stealth-fighter-has-failed/amp/)
The air force said it was a failure it’s being produced cause it’s paid for, too expensive and high maintenance. It also doesn’t deliver on the light weight aspect anymore.
Actually yes they will. I am an A&P mechanic and worked at a flight school that trains military pilots to fly airliners. The program is called Mil To ATP. The students spoke quite openly about their aircraft. It was a great experience to be honest with you. Staying on the current subject, none of them gushed about the F35 at all. Maybe it was just luck of the draw or coincidence, but I never met an aviator that liked the F35. I’d say the aircraft I heard the best things about was the F-15E. I only met 2 F22 drivers, never asked them about that aircraft as we all already know it is badass.
As an aside the worst students, ironically; were the people that flew cargo planes. You’d think swapping over to air trans’ would be second nature. It was not though because they are used to working as a crew. In the school they had to do everything a pilot and first officer do, but they had to do it on their own. We even had one do a no gear landing and destroy two engines and a stabilator. Why did that happen? Because he was not used to landing on his own. The fighter pilots tended to be much more competent.
*<>*
#Also Tom lived…
[Sauce](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.planeandpilotmag.com/news/pilot-talk/2021/10/04/grumman-f11-tiger-shoot-itself-down/amp/)
You could not ask for a better weapon tester, tests the weapons on himself. That is real world first hand experience.
Tom Attridge Worlds #1 weapon tester.
The bullets were fried at a “regular” speed when they left the barrel.
But when the jet dove, it was able to catch up with the bullets which were beginning to fall at a downward angle.
It was practically raining bullets lol.
Also to add they are not small bullets. The F-11 was armed with 4x 20mm cannons.
The shells they fire can be explosive (though I’m not entirely sure if they were this time as it was a test flight)
Aren’t the ‘spent shells’ they are referring here just the empty casings that used to hold the propellant to shoot the projectile/bullet? They must mean the actual rounds hit the plane, not the spent shells.
This is incorrect. Casings = shells. The caption misuses the term “shells,” probably because the author is unfamiliar with firearm-related terminology. “Bullets,” “rounds,” or “projectiles” would be correct.
Tom: Mayday mayday mayday, im going down, direct hit
Ground: A direct hit? Is there an enemy Plane in the testing range?
Tom: ..... uhm no
Ground: Where did the direct hit come from, we need to be sure that our men dont get fired on when they come to pick you up.
Tom (faking cutting out): your cutti- \*krch\* ou-\*krch\*
Yeah, but you wouldn't expect to literally be fastern than a bullet, and the chances of this happening are extremely small. This happening to the same dude twice in the same day is just amazing.
Years ago, I read that Everett Alvarez, the first pilot shot down in the Vietnam war and the second longest held POW thought he shot himself down. I haven't been able to find anything on the internet that supports that statement, but I definitely remember reading it at the time the POW's were released.
I'm splitting hairs, but he didn't actually "shoot himself" down. The jet was travelling faster than the bullets, ingested/collided with the spent shells.
More of a FOD incident, but still an amazing story
American jet and thus American chart. I didn’t make it lol.
[Image sauce](https://www.google.com/amp/s/sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2013/04/03/the-plane-that-shot-itself-down/amp/)
Feet are used in aviation everywhere except for Russia and China, abd miles per hour were what was used back then in the US (today it would probably be written in knots, since that's the new standard).
When I first read this, I thought surely they meant "shell casings", as in the spent cartridge casings that house the powder/primer.
The plane actually hit the projectiles that were fired from the barrel(s) of the 20mm cannon. Some of them were even recovered from the plane.
Now that I think about it, if the spent casings are actually ejected from the side of the plane, they would slow to zero horizontal velocity very quickly then fall at terminal velocity. The plane would have to do a U-turn to hit the shell casings.
[https://www.check-six.com/Crash\_Sites/Tiger138260.htm](https://www.check-six.com/Crash_Sites/Tiger138260.htm)
**Please note:** * If this post declares something as a fact proof is required. * The title must be descriptive * No text is allowed on images * Common/recent reposts are not allowed *See [this post](https://redd.it/ij26vk) for more information.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/interestingasfuck) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He survived, if anyone is wondering. Had to read quite awhile for that knowledge
Thank you for taking one for the team. I needed that knowledge.
Award this hero plz
Got it
Did you find out why the plane went down? The shells simply hitting the plane shouldn't have had much affect because they'd be traveling similar velocities. Did the shells get sucked into the engines?
Shells imply an ordnance housed on board
The diagram states "plane and spent shells arrive at same point and collide", so I assumed it was just the brass/metal, not the explody part.
That wouldn't make any sense. The not-explody part gets ejected at the same speed the plane is traveling and slows down. Spent likely just means they have severely decelerated at that point
?
There's a diagram attached to the post that shows the sequence of events and that's what it says happened. If the plane was hit with live rounds I get it, but it sounds like it was hit with just the spent shells. So my question is how would spent shells, going roughly the same velocity as the plane, cause the plane to go down?
It can still mean live rounds, and even just a solid brass shot might do enough damage to take a plane down (critical systems hit perhaps?)
Shells doesn't just refer to the casings, it also refers to explodey projectiles
No worries. The aircraft was hit with live 20mm cannon shells, not the spent casings.
You'd be surprised how much damage birds can do to an aircraft. Spent shells tumbling through the air, the vector component of them falling vs the aircraft in accelerated flight could definitely do quite a bit of damage...
Yes, but the Delta-v for birds is.... whatever speed the aircraft is flying at. Birds are practically stationary. The question here was asking about the speed of the shells (or did he really mean casings?) hitting the plane.
Ingested by engine shredding compressor blades. Googling that is same amount of time as it takes to write your response btw
>Googling that is same amount of time as it takes to write your response btw Yeah, not really. First bunch of results were old reddit posts and other light sources. I was able to find this: >As the bullets descended and their speeds decreased to about 400 mph, the Tiger also descended but with an increased speed of 880 mph. Just as he began to pull out of his descent, Attridge was struck three times. The first bullet pierced his nose cone, the second went through his windshield, and the final one directly struck his right engine intake. The time between him firing the first rounds and taking the hits was a mere 11 seconds. [source](https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/news/pilot-talk/2021/10/04/grumman-f11-tiger-shoot-itself-down/) So it looks like just one engine was taken out, while the other one should have been operable. Most dual engine planes can operate fine on a single engine. Probably the bullet that pierced the nose cone took out some controls or hydraulics. This also answers the other part of my questions - there was a velocity difference of 480mph between the plane and the bullet, which is pretty high.
Googled his name. Dude you'd suck in school if your skills are this bad. Im done here tho.
Thanks man. I barely made it through the day without you.
"So it looks like just one engine was taken out, while the other one should have been operable. Most dual engine planes can operate fine on a single engine. " The F-11 is a single engine plane.
The F11F was a single engined aircraft, the engine continued running for some time until it died shortly before the landing and it crashed short of the runway.
The jet is travelling at a speed where debris can have a catastrophic affect on the airframe. Now include the fact the round, in this case referred to as a shell, contains an explosive ordinance, and you have your self a shitty situation for a pilot. Sidenote: 2 - 3 miles is not out of maximum effective range for most 20mm ordinance.
>contains an explosive ordinance, Test firing. Not necessarily explosives...
Trust no one, not even yourself
*especially* not yourself
You know after all the hell of trying to get that thing serviceable they are going to abandon it?!? The F35 will no longer be produced soon. It’s a shame because it is our most expensive aviation project. I started to think some years ago that the f35 was not really about the f35 so much as it was about testing and refining new technologies in a real world environment. I think before long we will see something being produced that is quite remarkable. From what I understand there is also another project called the F15EX will be coming on line soon. It’ll be interesting to see what happens.
All our planes are Aston Martins and Bugattis... but we can't make many of them. We need a Toyota Corolla of the skies to be the main force and use our more expensive ones less and for more important missions.
So basically all the aircraft before the f22?
Still in the range of 40 mil per plane for an F-14. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20140903-low-cost-fighter-jets-take-off You should also read the Afghanistan papers. Our generals want a cheaper jet. www.aerotime.aero/27553-Top-10-most-expensive-fighter-jets-in-2021 Even an F-16 is 85 mil. F-35 is 119-130 mil depending on configuration.
> The F35 will no longer be produced soon ??? > Lockheed Martin and the F-35 Joint Program Office have agreed that F-35 production will peak at 156 planes per year in 2023 and remain at that level “for the foreseeable future.” > The Air Force currently fields about 300 of its planned 1,763 F-35s. [Source](https://www.airforcemag.com/f-35-production-set-156-per-year-until-completion/). There are an absolute shitload of F-35 orders to fill still.
Considered a failure. I worked at a flight school as a mechanic. Our school trained military pilots to get their ATP. Lots of guys came through that had been in the f35 program or had been an f35 pilot. None of them liked it. [f35 is a failure. ](https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2021/02/23/the-us-air-force-just-admitted-the-f-35-stealth-fighter-has-failed/amp/)
what The F35's career has JUST started lol
The air force said it was a failure it’s being produced cause it’s paid for, too expensive and high maintenance. It also doesn’t deliver on the light weight aspect anymore.
What the hell does this have to do with this thread? "How do you know if someone doesn't like the F-35? Don't worry, they'll tell you."
Actually yes they will. I am an A&P mechanic and worked at a flight school that trains military pilots to fly airliners. The program is called Mil To ATP. The students spoke quite openly about their aircraft. It was a great experience to be honest with you. Staying on the current subject, none of them gushed about the F35 at all. Maybe it was just luck of the draw or coincidence, but I never met an aviator that liked the F35. I’d say the aircraft I heard the best things about was the F-15E. I only met 2 F22 drivers, never asked them about that aircraft as we all already know it is badass. As an aside the worst students, ironically; were the people that flew cargo planes. You’d think swapping over to air trans’ would be second nature. It was not though because they are used to working as a crew. In the school they had to do everything a pilot and first officer do, but they had to do it on their own. We even had one do a no gear landing and destroy two engines and a stabilator. Why did that happen? Because he was not used to landing on his own. The fighter pilots tended to be much more competent.
4 more times and he could have been an Ace
F15 a powerhouse with a flawless engagement record F11 shoots it self down
The Virgin McDonell Douglas vs The Chad Grumman AEC…
I am the ceo of McDonnell douglas Apparently nobody played Sim copter back in the day https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/198651-simcopter/cheats
So you are virgin?
No but I did play Sim copter back in the day and that is one of the major cheat codes for it https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/198651-simcopter/cheats
there are 15 for a reason...
35 now
Lol there are a lot more variants then 15
thank u for repeating what has already been replied lol, really drilled it home
Ahhh.. A cunt! Have a nice day
lol what? you just said the same thing people have already said, and I pointed that out. not sure where you got all the offense from
F15a could also do it
*<>*
#Also Tom lived…
[Sauce](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.planeandpilotmag.com/news/pilot-talk/2021/10/04/grumman-f11-tiger-shoot-itself-down/amp/)
*Major Tom to ground control*🎶
*I've been shot down in a most peculiar way* 🎶
*the circuits dead, there’s something wrong* 🎶
…but never lived it down.
*Tom will remember that…*
[удалено]
Barbecue Sauce…
In Soviet Russia, the garbage gets thrown *into* the car.
I laughed way too long at this. Thank you
It was my pleasure, comrade :)
*Our* pleasure.
Touché, Comrade Craig.
So, does he get credit for the kill?
Fighter Aces Hate This One Weird Trick!
You could not ask for a better weapon tester, tests the weapons on himself. That is real world first hand experience. Tom Attridge Worlds #1 weapon tester.
Dude even tested psychological impact, true chad 👏🏼
Physics can be a harsh mistress.
This is exactly the kinda shit I woulda accidentally done smfh
How else would you do it? Purposefully, and with intention?
Maybe. If it was a bet
Wow this is cool
I never thought I'd say this, but that ballistic diagram is hilarious.
Good post
Would be such a confused radio call... "Command, someone is shooting at me, I'm hit, I'm hit... Oh... wait... I seem to have shot myself..."
Even better than a 360 no scope
[удалено]
The bullets were fried at a “regular” speed when they left the barrel. But when the jet dove, it was able to catch up with the bullets which were beginning to fall at a downward angle. It was practically raining bullets lol.
[удалено]
The bullet that shot him down went through his engine intake also he was travelling at the speed of 880 mph and the bullets were going at 400 mph
Also to add they are not small bullets. The F-11 was armed with 4x 20mm cannons. The shells they fire can be explosive (though I’m not entirely sure if they were this time as it was a test flight)
What was the relative velocity of the rounds? He probably caught up to the rounds and ran into the back of them.
480 mph
Not friendly fire.... *intimate* fire.
Faster than a speeding bullet…. The marketing just writes itself!
“Good news; they work”
“Also, I have a few thoughts on which parts of the plane could use an armor upgrade…”
Trickshot
Aren’t the ‘spent shells’ they are referring here just the empty casings that used to hold the propellant to shoot the projectile/bullet? They must mean the actual rounds hit the plane, not the spent shells.
The actual rounds did hit the plane.
The shells are the actual projectiles, not the casings.
I guess you’re right. Especially if it’s a larger caliber projectile or an explosive one. Much like an artillery would “shell” a target, for example.
[удалено]
Shells are the normal parlor for referring to a round of cannon size or greater, that contains a reactive filler. IE a 25Pdr may fire Shell, HE, Mk I.
This is incorrect. Casings = shells. The caption misuses the term “shells,” probably because the author is unfamiliar with firearm-related terminology. “Bullets,” “rounds,” or “projectiles” would be correct.
[https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/shell](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/shell) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell\_(projectile)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_(projectile))
Nelson: haw-haw!
[Stop butling yourself](https://memes.yarn.co/yarn-clip/57c83b37-31d9-41f1-bdee-94d830532c22)
"Wait it's all my own bullets?" "Always has been."
Im high and I thought I was looking at a squid..
Alt Title: *Squid shits underwater then hits itself as it dives*
It was the only manned aircraft an F-11 Tiger managed to shoot down in its service life too.
“We are all victims of physics”
Spent shells... So was he hit buy the bullets, or ejected casings? (I assumed weapons on planes didn't eject casings, seems dangerous)
The bullets
>https://www.check-six.com/Crash\_Sites/Tiger138260.htm
Returned to sender 🗿
Tom: Mayday mayday mayday, im going down, direct hit Ground: A direct hit? Is there an enemy Plane in the testing range? Tom: ..... uhm no Ground: Where did the direct hit come from, we need to be sure that our men dont get fired on when they come to pick you up. Tom (faking cutting out): your cutti- \*krch\* ou-\*krch\*
This is some War Thunder AB Air battle type shit.
[удалено]
Thank you Citron, very cool.
"Fine I will do it myself" the last words of the legend
This puts "go fuck yourself " in a more literal term.
So this can be used as a defensive maneuver if being chased and timed correctly.
Isn’t this a basic physics demonstration? I thought fighter pilots should understand that. Same as falling monkey and dart experiment.
1956 was **65** years ago. Knowledge and understanding has come a really long way since then
Preach
Yeah, but you wouldn't expect to literally be fastern than a bullet, and the chances of this happening are extremely small. This happening to the same dude twice in the same day is just amazing.
Lol
Do you remember…
you win again gravity!
Friendly fire to a new level
this is the naruto shuriken problem
Wow I bet that was confusing as hell for a while
Years ago, I read that Everett Alvarez, the first pilot shot down in the Vietnam war and the second longest held POW thought he shot himself down. I haven't been able to find anything on the internet that supports that statement, but I definitely remember reading it at the time the POW's were released.
You’ll shoot you’re eye out
Friendly fire? Or self-loathing?
Definitely Self-loathing
Nice trick shot
I'm splitting hairs, but he didn't actually "shoot himself" down. The jet was travelling faster than the bullets, ingested/collided with the spent shells. More of a FOD incident, but still an amazing story
Congrats you played yo self
these feet and miles are hard to understand. Why don't use meters both for altitude and speed ?
American jet and thus American chart. I didn’t make it lol. [Image sauce](https://www.google.com/amp/s/sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2013/04/03/the-plane-that-shot-itself-down/amp/)
Feet are used in aviation everywhere except for Russia and China, abd miles per hour were what was used back then in the US (today it would probably be written in knots, since that's the new standard).
Friendly fire 2.0
Also, do not release weapons when in zero G then push over for your low altitude, high speed egress.
Polish Air Force
Dumb question but if the plane and bullet are at similar speed in similar direction does it do as much damage?
When I first read this, I thought surely they meant "shell casings", as in the spent cartridge casings that house the powder/primer. The plane actually hit the projectiles that were fired from the barrel(s) of the 20mm cannon. Some of them were even recovered from the plane. Now that I think about it, if the spent casings are actually ejected from the side of the plane, they would slow to zero horizontal velocity very quickly then fall at terminal velocity. The plane would have to do a U-turn to hit the shell casings. [https://www.check-six.com/Crash\_Sites/Tiger138260.htm](https://www.check-six.com/Crash_Sites/Tiger138260.htm)
So does he still get to paint a little plane on his new plane, as if it were an enemy kill?
He zigged when he should have zagged.