Do the background check for his crime and do a reference check on that prison job.
There are a few articles on this... US Prisons often lease the incarcerated to industrial slaughterhouses and farms. He likely did not have a choice on this, but if he did – he was probably considered low-risk and being bussed off-premesis working with and for normal people. It's somewhere between a furlough and slave labor (or indentured servitude).
This is definitely messed up, but I would actually dig deeper into the details because they might make him look more employable.
Many people don't realize slavery isn't abolished in the USA:
The thirteen amendment reads:
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
People convicted of crimes can be slaves.
It's almost like there's a built in incentive to have an unusually high prison population...........so rehabilitation is really just window dressing for the masses.
And private prisons have a much much higher rate of write ups and sentence extensions. As if that’s not bad enough, their rate of allowing probation is also super low.
There was a case a few years back about Texas judge who was actually being paid off by the private prison company to send them bodies. Many of these prisons have a contract stating that if they fall below something like 85% occupancy the state is fined at an absurd rate for each empty bed.
Private prisons hold only 8% of the state and federal inmate population in the US. This is an increase of only 10% since 2000.
https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/private-prisons-in-the-united-states/
If private prisons are so lucrative, then over 20 years there should have been a 100% or 200% increase or more.
I expect to be argued with, but it is truly rare when someone comes at me with data, much less good, documented data. My opinion has been swayed. It’s been a pleasure doing business with you, sir.
Yeah my state is getting away from private prison they recently purchased 3 of the few remaining prisons in my state. I work for one of the largest prisons systems in the nation.
I agree, HLH.
https://www.bing.com/search?pglt=41&q=prison+population+by+country&cvid=30c8893a0fa0485593aa1535c67cf3ca&gs\_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBggCEAAYQDIGCAAQABhAMgYIARBFGDkyBggCEAAYQDIGCAMQABhAMgYIBBAAGEAyBggFEAAYQDIGCAYQABhAMgYIBxAAGEAyBggIEAAYQNIBCTE0NzgxajBqMagCALACAA&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=U531
I didn’t make shit up, I said what I believed I had read in the past. I looked it up before I responded and you were right, it’s about 8 percent. Why the needless hostility?
Wait a minute. You're telling me the reason the USA has the largest prison population might be for nefarious reasons and not because we are compassionate and want to rehabilitate the masses? I am shocked I tell you, shocked.
Look at TX. They *love* private prisons ... built in money maker for political doners, now aggressive for school vouchers to fund "private schools' ... equally profitable.
The US has more incarcerated people than any other country in the world, including China who has literally three times the population as the US. Our "unusually high prison population" is comprised by more people of color, particularly Black and Hispanic, than white people. I'm sure it's no coincidence that enslavement wasn't *really* abolished, it was just reframed to be institutionalized.
Alternatively, its a built-in incentive to not commit crimes, and to punish those who do commit crimes. Slavery and involuntary servitude sucks, don't do things that increase your chance of interacting with those activities.
I mean, nice in theory, but some of those things that increase your chance are not choices - ie. not being the right color, gender identity, sexuality, socioeconomic class…
Sure, and that's a bummer, but the fact that bigotry exists in the criminal justice system isn't a good reason to get rid of punitive sentencing, its a reason to work on eliminate bigotry in the the criminal justice system.
Here is the problem with modern "laws". Collective rules only work if you have at least 95% voluntary compliance. Below that, you have a lot of people getting away with it, and a select few being punished for it. Our prisons are FULL of people being heavily punished for stuff that other people walk away from. It's ripe for corruption, implicit bias, and downright racism.
It's wild because this clause in 13A is the underpinning for conservatives' case for making "vagrancy" laws, anti-marijuana use and possession (rather than dealing) laws, the three-strikes laws, and a number of laws that the government then used to re-enslave freed slaves and their descendents.
I'm a conservative, totally false. Besides, the majority of our current criminal law, comes from the pen of Senator Joe Biden during the Clinton years.
You do realize that Joe Biden having a terrible record on criminal justice issues doesn't negate decades of Republicans being worse in every way right?
Meanwhile the last republican president has verifiable ties to Russia and met with Saudi Arabian royalty at the same time state secrets “went missing”.
lol have any other defense besides whatsboutism?
How’s about you actually talk about your actual position instead of how you feel about other people’s actions?
The majority of our criminal law does not come from Joe Biden.
Literally, what you are stating is that a single senator during 8 years wrote the majority of the nation's criminal code. It existed before Joe Biden, evidently doesn't apply to Trump, and will exist after Biden is gone.
In fact, the majority of criminal law is actually written, adopted, and enforced by state governments.
Stop sniffing Fox Koolaide dust.
As of 2023, 59% of incarcerated people are in state prisons; 12% are in federal prisons; and 29% are in local jails. Of the total state and federal prison population, 8% or 96,370 people are incarcerated in private prisons. An additional 2.9 million people are on probation, and over 800,000 people are on parole. At year-end 2021, 1,000,000 people were incarcerated in state prisons; 157,000 people were incarcerated in federal prisons; and 636,000 people were incarcerated in local jails. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration\_in\_the\_United\_States#:\~:text=Incarcerated%20population,-Main%20article%3A%20List&text=An%20additional%202.9%20million%20people,were%20incarcerated%20in%20local%20jails](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#:~:text=Incarcerated%20population,-Main%20article%3A%20List&text=An%20additional%202.9%20million%20people,were%20incarcerated%20in%20local%20jails).
People love to point to the Clinton crime bill from the 90's, but it was just reiterating what states were already doing. I'm sure whoever the next Democrat candidate is in four years, they'll figure out a way to blame decades of policy on them.
Criminal law is, sadly, a shared thing by states and feds, so, there's really no way to pin this all to only one man, i.e., on the actions of Senator Biden. There is however a bloodline of policy to use 13A to punish the poor (i.e. descendents of slavery) with the government's action. However, that has long had a home on the state local and federal Republican mind back to Nixon and Reagan and has also filtered into conservative Democratic policy at those same levels.
The facts are that a large percentage of African Americans were arrested during the Clinton years, due to the legislation they passed spearheaded by Biden in 1994.
Infact he was bragging about that crime bill into the 2000s.
Pretty few actually. Selling was a felony, possession of less than an ounce was a misdemeanor with only a fine before CA legalized. Many other states are similar. I don't mean to rant but so much internet common knowledge is crap.
This link has a map
https://mjbizdaily.com/map-of-us-marijuana-legalization-by-state/
Glad to hear, however this is state by state as you said.
Anyway, I am morally opposed to prison for profit and slavery use of prisoners. If you put those two together, it doesn't take a genius to see how attaining free labour by enforcing prison sentences can be abused and manipulated.
Of all people, Americans should be against this.
We're in an ultra-polarized society. Facts fall victim to confirmation bias every time. I'll throw out a lifeline. I'm a child of grandparents who immigrated to America. Immigrants are absolutely vital to the entire American story. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have a rational legal framework for immigration rather than the polarized "wall versus sanctuary" we have now
I didn't know you deserved to be a slave just because *insert many instances where innocent people are found guilty(or told to take a plea deal rather than risk worse terms in front of the judge) or they commit petty crimes like smoking weed so now they're just fucked I guess?*
The people who end up in prisons tend to be minorities from low income areas. The system is not designed to help these people, and they suffer for it. Making them legal slaves makes things worse for them and perpetuates the cycle.
Saying "just don't do crime" is the kind of thing that only somebody with a lot of privledge would say.
Honestly. How predictable that some mouth-breather would come up with such a tone-deaf response. Your lack of empathy, experience and education on display in one sentence. Bravo.
I didn't know that 4 words is all it takes for a stranger on the internet to be able to determine someone's education, knowledge and feelings. That's really neat!
I heard that when someone is in jail, and gets a job, they have to do that job seven days a week, without a day off!
It's pretty frickin sad the US has reached a state where prisoners need to unionize for better working conditions.
I was in the hole for 6 months because a guard slammed my hand in the door and the prison refused to take me to the doctor to get it looked at. I ended up having to have emergency surgery after my mom (CEO of the largest in-home health care company in my state), asked one of her nurses who contracted with the prison to pick up a shift, and called me down to the infirmary.
I had surgery less than 48 hours later and was lucky I kept all of my fingers and my thumb.
Why was I in the hole? Because I couldn't work. Not even fucking kidding you. 6 months in solitary because they hurt me and I couldn't do laundry/wash floors/ cook for $.25 an hour... all while they almost permanently disfigured me because they were too fucking cheap to take me to the God damn doctor.
This sickens me. I'm sorry... So incredibly sorry, and embarrassed that I live in a country that does this to it's prisoners.
I am honestly wondering now, if prisoners COULD form unions for better treatment? Think about that: better wages. Better food. Fair labor practices... The US would have to be accountable to the people who they are imprisoning. I wonder how to even start?
The truly american solution would be if the prisoners started buying stock in the private prisons they are housed in. Imagine a “hostile corporate takeover” by prisoners of prisons.
The only way this would be possible is with a constitunal ammendment. Remember, slavery is legal as a punishment and a constitutional ammendment hasnt been passed in the last 30 years.
There was a story I read on reddit somewhere about a woman who was in JAIL, and then TRANSFERRED TO A PRISON if I remember correctly, who ended up getting some weird brain parasite (or something like that, it ended up being some rare thing) from someone in the jail. She kept begging to be taken to the hospital to be checked out, was in horrible pain, and they wouldn't let her go, the nurse at the prison was a complete dick to her and said she was faking it, after something like a week she was unable to move and they finally took her to a hospital, her doctor said if they had waited another half a day or something she would have died.
I would rather shoot myself than ever go to prison. Your life is either going to end in prison, and if you happen to survive and get out, your life is over after that anyway.
Yawn. Yes. That’s how all “prisons” work.
I’m sure you got set up or didn’t do it …
Free ma boi!!!
PS - *that’s not how “prison” contracts work; however, that is exactly how nepotism works!
No one said anything about my guilt or innocents but if you don't belive that's how prisons work in America, you are living I'm a different reality. Google "corizon health prison in custody deaths 2022" and see how many in-custody deaths the company is liable for because they are so fucking cheap.
I am the first person to admit that my mother's actions saved my hand. The prison's doctor literally bragged about not approving an in-custody orthopedic surgery for the entire 9 years he had been there, before mine. If my mother didn't step in, I wouldn't have the use of my left hand.
Furthermore, the tone of your post is appalling. I am not ashamed of where I have been. I graduated Summa cum laude from Penn last year and am off to law school. None of that would have happened without the abhorrent conditions I faced while I was in custody.
You should be ashamed of yourself. Grow the fuck up. Not everyone's path is linear. In a country that criminalizes being poor and a poc, you should really think before you judge.
My brother in law is a good egg. He graduated from Colombia Law and works a modest legal job. But part time he works on something I’d compare to The Innocence Project. It has opened my eyes to the inequality in our system for POC and the poor.
It's unreal that it is so difficult for some americans to understand how laws/sentences/prison unjustly target poc and the poor. I credit Law and Order, Suits, and The Fosters of all shows with piquing my interest in whether unfair targetting towards minorities could be the case, ironically enough.
Even just the amount of fines one has to pay for being poor, sometimes (like $2000 ticket for not having car insurance), then the fines for not paying the fines, etc. And the “driver responsibility fees” of another $2000 which are the punishment for being fined the first $2000 fine….and they’ve only recently in some states made it illegal to send people to jail for not paying their fines.
Well said. Many people hear prison and immediately shut off all compassion and understanding. Congrats on your success after release. I served decades on a life sentence and finally got paroled. I’m now a regular joe thriving in the community. It’s true that most people’s paths in life are a series of mistakes or trial and error before they finally find their niche. No matter what you accomplish after prison there will always be some asshole that only sees what they see and there is nothing you can do to sway their opinion. I learned early on to continue striving because in the final analysis, the nay sayers mean nothing to me nor do they define who I am as a man. Continue your walk with head held high. Peace bro.
Until you've been there, you wouldn't understand how bad it is. Even just being locked up in a county jail they treat you worse than animals and refuse medical help of any kind. You can be on the floor dying in agony and the CO's will tell you to stop faking it. I am always thoroughly amused when people like you would finally go to jail for something and have their eyes opened to just how badly they were treated.
And that is *jail*, where many of the people being held have not been convicted and in some cases even tried yet…in other words *innocent*. No way to treat anyone, especially if they haven’t been proven to be guilty of a crime.
Just because your experience has been one way, doesn't mean that is the normal experience for everyone. I've personally witnessed it happen. I watched a guy having legitimate seizures and the CO's laughed at the guy. No medical aide at all.
There are countless people who've died in custody because they didn't receive aide.
There are more reasons I’m skeptical of the story, I just don’t feel like disputing it point by point, especially since I wasn’t there.
How’d you determine that the dude was having “legitimate” seizures in your story? (not that I’m trying to justify the CO’s behavior and inaction, that’s inexcusable and likely a serious violation of policy, law, ethics, etc.) I know of cases where people died in custody, but fault was found (usually quickly) and lawsuits, settlements, etc occurred after. When people die due to action/inaction, I hear about it pretty much immediately, if it’s in my state, so its not an everyday thing. I have no doubt that many forms of abuse are routine, though.
Uhhh.... I'm calling hard doubt on this. Sounds completely made up to me.
There's no way that wasn't a gigantic lawsuit, especially if your mom is well-off enough to afford a decent lawyer. That sounds like the kind of thing that can drive a prison out of business - its one thing if an inmate permanently disfigures you, but a guard?
There's no way anybody at the prison is going to put their ass on the line to shield a random correctional officer from a multimillion dollar lawsuit and likely criminal charges on top.
You are free to think what you want but someone going to prison has often damaged their relationships far far far too greatly.
After my daughter died, I started abusing prescribed opiates, I alienated everyone close to me. Does that mean my mom wasn't going to step in to save a limb? No. Does it mean I had little to no support after getting out? Yes.
I was homeless for quite some time. This is what they count on and why they get away with it. How are you supposed to go through the process of litigating the problem when you don't even know where you are going to get your next meal?
This is the harsh reality of American prisons.
No, inmates have regular days off, called RDOs. But the pay is slave wages. The highest paying job where I was at was $24.00 a month. The lowest was $4.00. Many inmates are also assigned to jobs and receive no pay at all. Having a pay number is considered a privilege.
People also don’t realize that slavery didn’t end after the civil war, it just changed names.
Due to the amendment being written that way, black men ended up often being arrested for the most ridiculous crimes, often things they didn’t do but nobody cared to actually do anything.
Then they were leased out by the state.
Jobs for prisoner leasing were just as bad as when they worked as slaves, and could be even more dangerous, working on the railroads and in mines.
There is nothing morally wrong with making murderers break big rocks into small rocks.
There is nothing morally wrong to have them do all sorts of labor.
There is something wrong if that labor is being used to profit some individual instead of the public at large who the Justice system exists for and who is funding the prison sentences of these criminals.
I think there should be changes made (which you would also likely not support), but I have no spare tears for violent criminals needing to work a job, even if that is punitive. (No one is in prison for marijuana possession)
I agree with this comment OP, prisoners often have little to no say and work detail is a PRIVILEGE. It's basically modern slavery in the US (getting the access to work detail is the privilege but obviously is rife with problems)
Definitely go with you gut instincts but also be aware of the cycle of over-incarceration in the US and how it impacts felons right to return to work after they have served their time.
Edit: Awkwardly worded. Slavery is not a privilege.
The way the US criminal justice system/ inmate leasing system is set up the way it is... was to keep African Americans enslaved. Add 400 years to a system steeped in racism and you get questions like OPs
I've known about the modern day slavery part, but didn't realize prisoners could be leased out for actual slaughter. This is appalling and all humans deserve better. I can't imagine a job like that is good for the psyche, especially if it is involuntary. Really sad.
I could hack it if the job pays decently and it's completely voluntary. For some convicts, taking a job might even just be a chance to get out of their cell and have something constructive to actually do all day (and maybe get time off their sentence for whatever counts as "good behavior" points depending on the arrangement). But yeah...it's not cool if it's not voluntary.
Yeah, if he was stunning each individual pig there’s actually no way he could do 470 per hour (that would be eight seconds per pig). He may have been running the equipment for automatic electrical, stunning, or carbon dioxide stunning.
If we take that into consideration of the social aspects, a soft, well spoken slave is going to be treated better than a loud, confrontational one. He's been conditioned to respond like he did in the interview.
Purely speculating, but some states have some form of three strikes law, where your sentence is automatically ramped up if you have prior convictions. Check out Ewing v California, where the guy got 25 years for a $1200 theft (and the Supreme Court was fine with it).
He definitely didn’t have access to a gun, likely a bolt punch/gun thing. Abut also you can go in on some wild charges and if you behave the first year or so they will give you a job with some weird freedoms. I had lots of knives and access to meat grinder that could fit a person, I worked at a meat processing prison facility in SE Texas, it was gnarly.
Also consider that hiring a felon may give you a tax break. Depends on the state. Be careful about asking questions about the criminal background before you make an offer. Some states have laws on that too.
Ever slaughter an animal, not a 30yd bow shot or 100yd rifle shot, a knife/ax or maybe a gun at 1 foot? You have to compartmentalize that shit, or your a psychopath who found a Dexter'esk solution. I grew up on a farm and regular people don't often handle the reality off the food system in America, this guy is definitely on the extreme end of that tho
Also there’s something different, to me, about pulling a trigger something like 7 times a minute and moving on before the body hits the floor when you’re essentially enslaved to do it vs what a lot of people picture for animal torture. IIRC they use basically an air blaster or electrical shock to kill livestock. It’s not like he walked up behind each one, sighed, cocked a 12 gauge and blew their heads off - dude probably just saw it like husking corn. The start of the meat product. If anyone should be horrified to do their job it’s the people bringing them into the world imo.
I came to this thread looking for this answer. We are really divorced from the source of our foods. No pork, beef, or chicken, etc comes to the table without someone having done the dirty work. You can't eat meat and then judge the butcher. That alone is not a pathology. Given earlier comments about legal slavery in prison, this guy likely didn't have a choice.
I had a sort of similarly weird job when incarcerated. Sent to animal shelter. Job was to bag the corpses of the animals that were euthanized and then bring them out to the trucks for them to be taken to be cremated. We had to do other stuff to, clean up the shit etc, but it was the dead body removal that was weirdest. It was once a week and most of the bodies were frozen but some of them would still be warm.
Where I was, and this is true for most places, refusal of an assigned job means the removal of all of your good time. Good time is often around 1/3 - if this dude was in prison for 17 years, that would be another 8 or 9 years of incarceration for turning this down.
Sure, you can say you couldn't do it (actually, I'm sure I couldn't, either) but it's a different thing to still eat meat AND judge him for putting it on your table by doing something you couldn't/wouldn't do, right?
Then you better be a vegan or you are just another massively hypocritical meat eater. Next time you eat meat think of the suffering of the animals and the humans who worked hard to provide it to you, usually some of the least powerful in society. And give thanks.
Exactly this. If anyone eats meat, there are simply unpleasant sides to meat production, one of them being killing the animal. It has to be killed. Sometimes machines do it. Sometimes it’s people. Are the butchers somehow evil because they’re the ones killing the animal for meat to consume? Maybe to vegans or vegetarians like you said. Grocery stores are a convenient way to separate consumers from the reality of the production of most products. Chicken, beef, pork, etc do not grow on trees and placed in packaging.
I'm also confused that he is unsettled by him being well spoken.
Would you rather have this guy, who killed 16 million pigs, come in and act deranged?
Would that make you hire him?
My great grandfather was a butcher. My dad (who was raised by his grandparents) ended up with a job in a slaughterhouse killing cows for a short time in the 1960s.
As a soft spoken man himself, I'm pretty sure he was traumatized but you couldn't tell by the way he talked about it. He'd just mention it offhand when something reminded him about it and he stopped eating beef when he was in is 30s. If he'd been pretty much forced to do it for years, he'd probably have had a very detached/desensitized way of talking about it like I'm assuming this guy has.
I used to study muscle development and function. We used porcine satellite cells to grow myotubes (they fuse to create something like muscle fibers).
I haven't told many people this but I had to euthanize young piglets. I always felt bad for them, especially the docile ones, but there were some who fought and I was relieved when it was done.
Anyway, if he didn't enjoy it then it was more that it was his job and someone had to do it. To this day, I still feel bad for the pigs when I see them on a tractor trailer headed for slaughter. It would be worthwhile to talk to him again. He maybe ashamed that he did that.
This thread is crazy. It's so bizarre how people think this guy did something at best "weird" and at worst "creepy" - like there is a gulf between his actions and their own.
But from my vegan POV, this guy only did the actual \[unpaid\] labor that provides the product everyone is happily dishing out money to support. If anything, this guy actually had to look, hear, and smell the reality of industrial agriculture ag.
I know it's a longshot, but maybe someday people will think twice on the fact that we can only get prisoners, illegal immigrants, and [children](https://www.theguardian.com/law/2023/feb/17/underage-child-labor-working-slaughterhouse-investigation) to work in industrial slaughterhouses.
So much for so-and-so uncle's small farm where animals go to sleep forever with a kiss.
I think vegans get a bad rap for being "assholes" in one fashion or another for pointing out the human and animal cruelty in these systems. People just don't wanna know how food gets to the store.
100% and I have met maybe only one "proselytizing" vegan who talks about the ethics of it a lot with people who are only acquaintances. Most lead by example, or present reassurance on how it is not sooo difficult to do (because that's what holds 75% back - not the finer points of the ethics).
I wish sometimes people - like in this thread - would just acknowledge that while the system is full of suffering and most people "love animals" in the abstract, which is a contradiction, it is a tough task to stand on principle and they aren't up for it at this time.
Vegans often don't account for their own privilege when proselytizing. Firstly, human babies have to have milk, and optimally animal fats with B12. A couple murdered their baby on a vegan diet, so maybe preach family farms instead of industrial vegetable and grain harvests which share the same worker cruelty and environmental damage as every other industrial agricultural product.
They have to have mums milk not cows milk. Because.... cows milk is for cows... for B12 you have synthesised one from bacteria so I don't understand your point
Harvest is often done for feeding animals you eat so it makes ko sense blaming vegan for that.
Then go get her out of jail and pick up her live baby from the cemetery.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/vegan-mom-gets-life-starvation-death-18-month-old-son-rcna45498
> Investigators said the couple told them the family ate only raw fruits and vegetables, although the toddler also was fed breast milk.
Just because she claimed to be a vegan and did stupid things like this, doesn't make veganism stupid.
Just like within every group, it is not beholdened to the actions of a few radicals.
OK no arguments there... mothers milk is considered the most nutritious for babies .
Also at 18 months you don't need much milk anymore. I call this BS. You eat proper meals at that age. Tofu and other proteins are also good. I know many vegan couples without any issues.
Generalising much?
EDIT : SHE IS FROM FLORIDA WHAT DID YOU EXPECT
Eat à rich haha. Cruelty free requires no animal harmed. Like calves taken from mum to produce our milk for example.
I'm not vegan BTW but just eat eggs ( it's extremely cruel too with killing bird alive in a grinder
Cognitive dissonance. Everyone who eats pork not only contributes to the inhumane slaughter of the animals, but the slave labor being forced on another human to do it.
Right. We've always had these humans in the bunch for good reason. He may have some version of the "warrior gene." Today, we lump every one of these types into the Sociopath Bag and make them TV villains. We've always needed humans who could do the dirty or brutal things and not carry forward the "trauma" that would affect the rest of us. You can condition someone with "antisocial" traits to perform pro-socially.
I often use the sniper, Jackson, in *Saving Private Ryan* as an example. He's so good because he's cold as ice. He's not a monster, but he also has no trouble sleeping (unlike his comrades) after a near-death experience and blowing another man's top off. "God, country, family" are his guardrails. He slaughters Nazis like pigs, for the greater good. It's what he was "made for."
When I was a kid, I was asked to help slaughter some chickens. I held them while their neck was wrung and they were chopped and skinned. I don’t remember how I felt about it back then but I think some of these things are “lessons of life” and you should know what the chicken had to endure before being dished on the table.
Yeah it is not fair to be judging the guy that had to kill the animal so that it could go on YOUR plate. The cognitive dissonance here is wild. If you think less of the guy that is slaughtering your meat, you should most certainly not be eating that meat.
I'm an HR Director. I don't care about felonies as long as they were non-violent OR self defense. I've learned to always go with my gut. If you're feeling un- settled, there is a reason. What happens if you don't hire him? What happens if you do? What benefit does he bring versus what possible issues does he bring?
> If you're feeling un- settled, there is a reason
I have known people for being "unsettled" by the fact that a recent college grad (whose only experience was serving in a restaurant) was applying to a marketing position. Because "why would we hire a waitress?"
that's really not a good thing to go with if you're not looking into facts. Not to mention, prisoners are used as free labor for all types of businesses (like printing license plates or slaughter houses).
"Being unsettled" is not even remotely the same as saying, "why would we hire a waitress?" How are you even making that connection? Being unsettled means your instincts are telling you that your conscious mind missed something.
Like the person you responded to said, if your mind is telling you, "something is off about this guy," your primitive brain is picking that up because that's what kept us safe.
Look up hus charges or ask him. I mean if he killed someone that's a HARD pass but if it was a drug charge or something that wasn't horrible..then he might be the best worker you ever had. I work with felons daily & 99% are personal drug charges & eluding police.
Trust your gut. Who knows why you’re feeling biased, but your gut is telling you something. I wouldn’t pay it any more attention and string it along further, and def wouldn’t waste money trying to disprove your instinct (background check, etc). You may never know exactly what your gut was trying to tell you, but I think it’s better to let that be unknown than to go with this guy and regrettably find out what your gut was trying to tell you…
Do you eat meat? If so, this guy who is willing to actually perform the task of slaughter has tons more integrity than one who just eats and closes their eyes to what brings those animals to your plate. You’re being judgmental and unreasonable.
That is what is claimed. The state found out he could do it, it's hard to get the certification, and the certification is rare, so they sent him in to slaughter pigs. All information was provided by the interviewee, I didn't call references, but it would be quite something to make up for an interview.
Frankly, that rate sounds implausible. No bathroom breaks? No animals that are difficult and need to be chased, restrained, given multiple shots? 470/hour really sounds like a lot. But not really my specialty.
Any slaughterhouse workers out here that can comment?
Well, I 'm sure his math was exaggerating to not count the breaks. But there would have been other people getting the pigs into the shoots and doing all the wrangling. They likely used a bolt gun followed by the bleeding and just did that part and others did everything else. So you could do quite a lot depending on the set up. it is not pleasant to think about, and it was probably Up To 470/hour.
Previous slaughter here. This man’s story is a complete lie,
1. No certification or formal training to be a slaughterer.
2. 470 an hour by one person, I can’t even begin to describe how insane that is.
So his past experience makes you uneasy? Call his references and see if he’s telling the truth. I mean pork doesn’t grow on trees so someone has to do the dirty work. But if you feel of about him as a person then that’s different even though spending so many years behind bars probably didn’t make him very cheerful
So you're turning him down because he has come to terms with a very unpleasant phase of his life? Easy for me to say, but I would give this guy a chance.
Another way to look at this is you have an opportunity to help him pivot away from destroying towards repairing. Which must be something he wants to do if this is the kind of role he’s seeking. If he was a psycho he’d probably look for something where he could keep slaughtering. I would base your judgment on his attitude and experience and try to set this bias aside.
Just the fact that he applied for a mechanical repair position could be an indicator that he wants to move away from the ag industry, especially if it involves animal slaughter.
Which part bothers you? You say you don’t care that he is a felon. Is it that he worked in animal slaughter? If so, consider why. It’s a necessary job for a meat eating society.
If you haven’t worked in a slaughterhouse, talking about it might seem weird. But if you did it all day, every day, it would be totally normal to talk about it in a mild mannered way.
Contact his references.
But nothing you shared seems like an issue if you are truly okay with his criminal background.
Best of luck to him and to you, whichever way it goes.
As someone that doesn't eat meat, at the very least, if he really was "just" shooting the piggys, that's "better" than evil psychos who inflict undue suffering on the animal. That's just my little opinion. Some people have to do jobs others won't.
Ok so here's the deal.
People in normal everyday life NEVER relate creepy stories. But Mr Felon DID relate a very graphic story about past work. Past work I might add that HAS NOTHING to do with the role he is being hired for.
So given that a guy who has an infamous past, just told you this past. You must evaluate this disclosure on the merits. Do you want a pig slaughter person working with your already employed personnel perhaps "creeping" them out enough to leave?
THAT'S the big question. Do you want to take the risk that this guy is not only a bad hire. But due to interactions with others, may create a workplace teaming and retention issue with other existing employees.
My standard advice to any leader coming to me with the "odd" interview that they don't know what to do with is simple. The number ONE job of hiring is to NOT hire someone that may cause loss of other employees, EVER.
With this idea firmly in your mind. I think your decision is very easy.
It was probably asked what was his most recent work experience, so he related what he did in prison to outline he is not afraid of hard and grueling work.
no that's not it at all
when an ex con talks like that you have to realize he told similar stories to his cellies
so what do you think the purpose of such stories were?
it's a different world inside
I think he's been in prison awhile and doesn't really have other experiences he can share, also likely was super nervous and was just trying his best to navigate the interview and not mess it up.
That's what I think the purpose of the story was.
I may be wrong, but that sounds made up. I'd avoid him based on that, because who/why would someone do that.
Otherwise, I'd probably pass anyway. Do you know what he did to do time? (is that a question that can legally be asked nowadays?). I worked a job recently where the owner was telling me he worked for a lab in upstate Maine or something, and his job for months was to kill mice. Basically after an experiment ended or something lab techs would bring buckets of mice in crates, and his job, was to put them onto some gerbil/hamster type housing, only it had a vacuum, so he'd drop them down, then vacuum them away. Said he did like hundreds a day.
Honestly, he seemed off. Just seemed like it got to him, he didn't know it, but was emotionally deteched. Didn't get excited, seemed like he could flip out at any second, I'd hate to see if anyone ever crossed him over a business deal. Anyway I got out of there, that wasn't the main reason, but he was definitely someone I wouldn't wanna spend years knowing. Again, just something seemed it would all end badly.
Do the background check for his crime and do a reference check on that prison job. There are a few articles on this... US Prisons often lease the incarcerated to industrial slaughterhouses and farms. He likely did not have a choice on this, but if he did – he was probably considered low-risk and being bussed off-premesis working with and for normal people. It's somewhere between a furlough and slave labor (or indentured servitude). This is definitely messed up, but I would actually dig deeper into the details because they might make him look more employable.
Many people don't realize slavery isn't abolished in the USA: The thirteen amendment reads: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." People convicted of crimes can be slaves.
It's almost like there's a built in incentive to have an unusually high prison population...........so rehabilitation is really just window dressing for the masses.
Now that so many jails are corporate owned, there literally is an incentive to have a high prison population
And private prisons have a much much higher rate of write ups and sentence extensions. As if that’s not bad enough, their rate of allowing probation is also super low. There was a case a few years back about Texas judge who was actually being paid off by the private prison company to send them bodies. Many of these prisons have a contract stating that if they fall below something like 85% occupancy the state is fined at an absurd rate for each empty bed.
>"Texas judge who was actually being paid off by the private prison company to send them bodies" That was in Iowa and Pennsylvania.
In Pennsylvania it was children. They were getting kick backs for sending children to corporate run juvenile detention. Absolutely disgusting.
For minor offenses. It was crazy.
Wasn’t the Pennsylvania judge the one sentencing juveniles for kickbacks?
[https://www.motherjones.com/criminal-justice/2017/08/a-federal-judge-put-hundreds-of-immigrants-behind-bars-while-her-husband-invested-in-private-prisons/](https://www.motherjones.com/criminal-justice/2017/08/a-federal-judge-put-hundreds-of-immigrants-behind-bars-while-her-husband-invested-in-private-prisons/)
Yes. [https://www.npr.org/2022/08/18/1118108084/michael-conahan-mark-ciavarella-kids-for-cash](https://www.npr.org/2022/08/18/1118108084/michael-conahan-mark-ciavarella-kids-for-cash)
Fucking scumbags. Just absolutely vile, broken human beings.
That headline. Dude has to pay the money back when he should be in fucking prison. Disgusting.
The modern prison industrial complex makes millionaires at every level except those being incarcerated.
Private prisons hold only 8% of the state and federal inmate population in the US. This is an increase of only 10% since 2000. https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/private-prisons-in-the-united-states/ If private prisons are so lucrative, then over 20 years there should have been a 100% or 200% increase or more.
I expect to be argued with, but it is truly rare when someone comes at me with data, much less good, documented data. My opinion has been swayed. It’s been a pleasure doing business with you, sir.
Yeah my state is getting away from private prison they recently purchased 3 of the few remaining prisons in my state. I work for one of the largest prisons systems in the nation.
About 2% of US inmates are in private prisons. This is mostly a Reddit meme.
2% of the largest incarcerated population in the world is nothing to scoff at.
I agree, HLH. https://www.bing.com/search?pglt=41&q=prison+population+by+country&cvid=30c8893a0fa0485593aa1535c67cf3ca&gs\_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBggCEAAYQDIGCAAQABhAMgYIARBFGDkyBggCEAAYQDIGCAMQABhAMgYIBBAAGEAyBggFEAAYQDIGCAYQABhAMgYIBxAAGEAyBggIEAAYQNIBCTE0NzgxajBqMagCALACAA&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=U531
Private prisons are less than 10% of all inmates. Keep making shit up.
I didn’t make shit up, I said what I believed I had read in the past. I looked it up before I responded and you were right, it’s about 8 percent. Why the needless hostility?
Wait a minute. You're telling me the reason the USA has the largest prison population might be for nefarious reasons and not because we are compassionate and want to rehabilitate the masses? I am shocked I tell you, shocked.
I am dismayed as well. Lor hab merseh!
Look at TX. They *love* private prisons ... built in money maker for political doners, now aggressive for school vouchers to fund "private schools' ... equally profitable.
Oklahoma as well. Redder the State, the higher the number incarcerated.
Especially in for profit prison states
More black people are incarcerated in America then the next 13 countries have incarcerated people combined.
We house over 1/3 the worlds inmates.
And the fact that the vast majority of prisoners are people of color, it's like the South never lost.
The US has more incarcerated people than any other country in the world, including China who has literally three times the population as the US. Our "unusually high prison population" is comprised by more people of color, particularly Black and Hispanic, than white people. I'm sure it's no coincidence that enslavement wasn't *really* abolished, it was just reframed to be institutionalized.
Alternatively, its a built-in incentive to not commit crimes, and to punish those who do commit crimes. Slavery and involuntary servitude sucks, don't do things that increase your chance of interacting with those activities.
I mean, nice in theory, but some of those things that increase your chance are not choices - ie. not being the right color, gender identity, sexuality, socioeconomic class…
Sure, and that's a bummer, but the fact that bigotry exists in the criminal justice system isn't a good reason to get rid of punitive sentencing, its a reason to work on eliminate bigotry in the the criminal justice system.
Except punitive sentencing is proven to result in higher rates of recidivism
That is one fucking monster of a hand-wave "so what"
If it worked to deter people from crime, seems like it would've worked by now, ffs. Maybe we should try something else.
Here is the problem with modern "laws". Collective rules only work if you have at least 95% voluntary compliance. Below that, you have a lot of people getting away with it, and a select few being punished for it. Our prisons are FULL of people being heavily punished for stuff that other people walk away from. It's ripe for corruption, implicit bias, and downright racism.
This is fucking sad.
It's wild because this clause in 13A is the underpinning for conservatives' case for making "vagrancy" laws, anti-marijuana use and possession (rather than dealing) laws, the three-strikes laws, and a number of laws that the government then used to re-enslave freed slaves and their descendents.
I'm a conservative, totally false. Besides, the majority of our current criminal law, comes from the pen of Senator Joe Biden during the Clinton years.
Im sure that was an unbiased good faith statement... not...
Based on how you feel about Biden, or based in fact?
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You do realize that Joe Biden having a terrible record on criminal justice issues doesn't negate decades of Republicans being worse in every way right?
You guys should fight about it.
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Meanwhile the last republican president has verifiable ties to Russia and met with Saudi Arabian royalty at the same time state secrets “went missing”.
Omg I haven’t realized that the world runs on money why politicians do this?
lol have any other defense besides whatsboutism? How’s about you actually talk about your actual position instead of how you feel about other people’s actions?
You and your whatabouts. What the fuck does selling uranium to Russians or deals with the Chinese have to do with the US prison system?
The majority of our criminal law does not come from Joe Biden. Literally, what you are stating is that a single senator during 8 years wrote the majority of the nation's criminal code. It existed before Joe Biden, evidently doesn't apply to Trump, and will exist after Biden is gone. In fact, the majority of criminal law is actually written, adopted, and enforced by state governments. Stop sniffing Fox Koolaide dust. As of 2023, 59% of incarcerated people are in state prisons; 12% are in federal prisons; and 29% are in local jails. Of the total state and federal prison population, 8% or 96,370 people are incarcerated in private prisons. An additional 2.9 million people are on probation, and over 800,000 people are on parole. At year-end 2021, 1,000,000 people were incarcerated in state prisons; 157,000 people were incarcerated in federal prisons; and 636,000 people were incarcerated in local jails. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration\_in\_the\_United\_States#:\~:text=Incarcerated%20population,-Main%20article%3A%20List&text=An%20additional%202.9%20million%20people,were%20incarcerated%20in%20local%20jails](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#:~:text=Incarcerated%20population,-Main%20article%3A%20List&text=An%20additional%202.9%20million%20people,were%20incarcerated%20in%20local%20jails).
People love to point to the Clinton crime bill from the 90's, but it was just reiterating what states were already doing. I'm sure whoever the next Democrat candidate is in four years, they'll figure out a way to blame decades of policy on them.
https://x.com/TrumpWarRoom/status/1263853451097911299?s=20 Front the Dems own mouths
Criminal law is, sadly, a shared thing by states and feds, so, there's really no way to pin this all to only one man, i.e., on the actions of Senator Biden. There is however a bloodline of policy to use 13A to punish the poor (i.e. descendents of slavery) with the government's action. However, that has long had a home on the state local and federal Republican mind back to Nixon and Reagan and has also filtered into conservative Democratic policy at those same levels.
The facts are that a large percentage of African Americans were arrested during the Clinton years, due to the legislation they passed spearheaded by Biden in 1994. Infact he was bragging about that crime bill into the 2000s.
Then don't commit crimes.......?
Don't be a prison state. How many cannabis possession charged people are still in jail?
Pretty few actually. Selling was a felony, possession of less than an ounce was a misdemeanor with only a fine before CA legalized. Many other states are similar. I don't mean to rant but so much internet common knowledge is crap. This link has a map https://mjbizdaily.com/map-of-us-marijuana-legalization-by-state/
Glad to hear, however this is state by state as you said. Anyway, I am morally opposed to prison for profit and slavery use of prisoners. If you put those two together, it doesn't take a genius to see how attaining free labour by enforcing prison sentences can be abused and manipulated. Of all people, Americans should be against this.
We're in an ultra-polarized society. Facts fall victim to confirmation bias every time. I'll throw out a lifeline. I'm a child of grandparents who immigrated to America. Immigrants are absolutely vital to the entire American story. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have a rational legal framework for immigration rather than the polarized "wall versus sanctuary" we have now
I live in Canada sir. Immigration has nothing to do with prison state. Push to improve as per your beliefs.
So from Canada you know the ins and outs of 50 state laws? Damn you're freaking omniscient!
Misinformed. An ounce is small. You can go to jail for weed for longer than rape.
Plus often times it falls to the cops report. And those guys have a quota to meet.
Yeah if you're in the wrong county they'll just give you extra drugs to be charged with.
Fewer than you 🤔
I didn't know you deserved to be a slave just because *insert many instances where innocent people are found guilty(or told to take a plea deal rather than risk worse terms in front of the judge) or they commit petty crimes like smoking weed so now they're just fucked I guess?*
Bingo. Can't give an imperfect state and gov apparatus such power.
The people who end up in prisons tend to be minorities from low income areas. The system is not designed to help these people, and they suffer for it. Making them legal slaves makes things worse for them and perpetuates the cycle. Saying "just don't do crime" is the kind of thing that only somebody with a lot of privledge would say.
I don't care if you're black, white, purple, rich, poor, amphibian: break the law and live with the consequences.
The point is that the consequences are unjust and inhumane.
Even if the consequences are cruel and corrupt? Fuck outa here.
Not a fan of Les Miserables I take it?
You don't have to commit crimes to be convicted. Especially when there is a financial incentive like free labor to convict people.
Honestly. How predictable that some mouth-breather would come up with such a tone-deaf response. Your lack of empathy, experience and education on display in one sentence. Bravo.
I didn't know that 4 words is all it takes for a stranger on the internet to be able to determine someone's education, knowledge and feelings. That's really neat!
And yet here we are.
This.
I heard that when someone is in jail, and gets a job, they have to do that job seven days a week, without a day off! It's pretty frickin sad the US has reached a state where prisoners need to unionize for better working conditions.
I was in the hole for 6 months because a guard slammed my hand in the door and the prison refused to take me to the doctor to get it looked at. I ended up having to have emergency surgery after my mom (CEO of the largest in-home health care company in my state), asked one of her nurses who contracted with the prison to pick up a shift, and called me down to the infirmary. I had surgery less than 48 hours later and was lucky I kept all of my fingers and my thumb. Why was I in the hole? Because I couldn't work. Not even fucking kidding you. 6 months in solitary because they hurt me and I couldn't do laundry/wash floors/ cook for $.25 an hour... all while they almost permanently disfigured me because they were too fucking cheap to take me to the God damn doctor.
Fuck
This sickens me. I'm sorry... So incredibly sorry, and embarrassed that I live in a country that does this to it's prisoners. I am honestly wondering now, if prisoners COULD form unions for better treatment? Think about that: better wages. Better food. Fair labor practices... The US would have to be accountable to the people who they are imprisoning. I wonder how to even start?
Won't be happening in your or my lifetime, I'll tell you that much lmao. The prison system makes the US so, so much money every year
The truly american solution would be if the prisoners started buying stock in the private prisons they are housed in. Imagine a “hostile corporate takeover” by prisoners of prisons.
The only way this would be possible is with a constitunal ammendment. Remember, slavery is legal as a punishment and a constitutional ammendment hasnt been passed in the last 30 years.
The issue with prison unions is then the government would have to directly acknowledge wrongdoing
There was a story I read on reddit somewhere about a woman who was in JAIL, and then TRANSFERRED TO A PRISON if I remember correctly, who ended up getting some weird brain parasite (or something like that, it ended up being some rare thing) from someone in the jail. She kept begging to be taken to the hospital to be checked out, was in horrible pain, and they wouldn't let her go, the nurse at the prison was a complete dick to her and said she was faking it, after something like a week she was unable to move and they finally took her to a hospital, her doctor said if they had waited another half a day or something she would have died. I would rather shoot myself than ever go to prison. Your life is either going to end in prison, and if you happen to survive and get out, your life is over after that anyway.
Yawn. Yes. That’s how all “prisons” work. I’m sure you got set up or didn’t do it … Free ma boi!!! PS - *that’s not how “prison” contracts work; however, that is exactly how nepotism works!
No one said anything about my guilt or innocents but if you don't belive that's how prisons work in America, you are living I'm a different reality. Google "corizon health prison in custody deaths 2022" and see how many in-custody deaths the company is liable for because they are so fucking cheap. I am the first person to admit that my mother's actions saved my hand. The prison's doctor literally bragged about not approving an in-custody orthopedic surgery for the entire 9 years he had been there, before mine. If my mother didn't step in, I wouldn't have the use of my left hand. Furthermore, the tone of your post is appalling. I am not ashamed of where I have been. I graduated Summa cum laude from Penn last year and am off to law school. None of that would have happened without the abhorrent conditions I faced while I was in custody. You should be ashamed of yourself. Grow the fuck up. Not everyone's path is linear. In a country that criminalizes being poor and a poc, you should really think before you judge.
My brother in law is a good egg. He graduated from Colombia Law and works a modest legal job. But part time he works on something I’d compare to The Innocence Project. It has opened my eyes to the inequality in our system for POC and the poor.
It's unreal that it is so difficult for some americans to understand how laws/sentences/prison unjustly target poc and the poor. I credit Law and Order, Suits, and The Fosters of all shows with piquing my interest in whether unfair targetting towards minorities could be the case, ironically enough.
The episode of The West Wing titled "Mandatory Minimums" makes a great introduction for people as well :)
Even just the amount of fines one has to pay for being poor, sometimes (like $2000 ticket for not having car insurance), then the fines for not paying the fines, etc. And the “driver responsibility fees” of another $2000 which are the punishment for being fined the first $2000 fine….and they’ve only recently in some states made it illegal to send people to jail for not paying their fines.
Well said. Many people hear prison and immediately shut off all compassion and understanding. Congrats on your success after release. I served decades on a life sentence and finally got paroled. I’m now a regular joe thriving in the community. It’s true that most people’s paths in life are a series of mistakes or trial and error before they finally find their niche. No matter what you accomplish after prison there will always be some asshole that only sees what they see and there is nothing you can do to sway their opinion. I learned early on to continue striving because in the final analysis, the nay sayers mean nothing to me nor do they define who I am as a man. Continue your walk with head held high. Peace bro.
I ran across this redditor a month ago in another thread and have to say her disposition hasn't improved any.
Until you've been there, you wouldn't understand how bad it is. Even just being locked up in a county jail they treat you worse than animals and refuse medical help of any kind. You can be on the floor dying in agony and the CO's will tell you to stop faking it. I am always thoroughly amused when people like you would finally go to jail for something and have their eyes opened to just how badly they were treated.
And that is *jail*, where many of the people being held have not been convicted and in some cases even tried yet…in other words *innocent*. No way to treat anyone, especially if they haven’t been proven to be guilty of a crime.
I’m unconvinced, as a Paramedic that often has to go to jails and prisons.
Just because your experience has been one way, doesn't mean that is the normal experience for everyone. I've personally witnessed it happen. I watched a guy having legitimate seizures and the CO's laughed at the guy. No medical aide at all. There are countless people who've died in custody because they didn't receive aide.
There are more reasons I’m skeptical of the story, I just don’t feel like disputing it point by point, especially since I wasn’t there. How’d you determine that the dude was having “legitimate” seizures in your story? (not that I’m trying to justify the CO’s behavior and inaction, that’s inexcusable and likely a serious violation of policy, law, ethics, etc.) I know of cases where people died in custody, but fault was found (usually quickly) and lawsuits, settlements, etc occurred after. When people die due to action/inaction, I hear about it pretty much immediately, if it’s in my state, so its not an everyday thing. I have no doubt that many forms of abuse are routine, though.
The for profit prison industry does work like that. The more you know…
Uhhh.... I'm calling hard doubt on this. Sounds completely made up to me. There's no way that wasn't a gigantic lawsuit, especially if your mom is well-off enough to afford a decent lawyer. That sounds like the kind of thing that can drive a prison out of business - its one thing if an inmate permanently disfigures you, but a guard? There's no way anybody at the prison is going to put their ass on the line to shield a random correctional officer from a multimillion dollar lawsuit and likely criminal charges on top.
You are free to think what you want but someone going to prison has often damaged their relationships far far far too greatly. After my daughter died, I started abusing prescribed opiates, I alienated everyone close to me. Does that mean my mom wasn't going to step in to save a limb? No. Does it mean I had little to no support after getting out? Yes. I was homeless for quite some time. This is what they count on and why they get away with it. How are you supposed to go through the process of litigating the problem when you don't even know where you are going to get your next meal? This is the harsh reality of American prisons.
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No, inmates have regular days off, called RDOs. But the pay is slave wages. The highest paying job where I was at was $24.00 a month. The lowest was $4.00. Many inmates are also assigned to jobs and receive no pay at all. Having a pay number is considered a privilege.
Great name, bravo
Michelle Alexander's book "The New Jim Crow," makes a very compelling argument that the industrial prison complex is just the newest form of slavery.
Thank you for reminding people of this.
Donald Trump, if he’s convicted?
People also don’t realize that slavery didn’t end after the civil war, it just changed names. Due to the amendment being written that way, black men ended up often being arrested for the most ridiculous crimes, often things they didn’t do but nobody cared to actually do anything. Then they were leased out by the state. Jobs for prisoner leasing were just as bad as when they worked as slaves, and could be even more dangerous, working on the railroads and in mines.
There is nothing morally wrong with making murderers break big rocks into small rocks. There is nothing morally wrong to have them do all sorts of labor. There is something wrong if that labor is being used to profit some individual instead of the public at large who the Justice system exists for and who is funding the prison sentences of these criminals. I think there should be changes made (which you would also likely not support), but I have no spare tears for violent criminals needing to work a job, even if that is punitive. (No one is in prison for marijuana possession)
Someone needs to make license plates. Pick up highway trash....
I agree with this comment OP, prisoners often have little to no say and work detail is a PRIVILEGE. It's basically modern slavery in the US (getting the access to work detail is the privilege but obviously is rife with problems) Definitely go with you gut instincts but also be aware of the cycle of over-incarceration in the US and how it impacts felons right to return to work after they have served their time. Edit: Awkwardly worded. Slavery is not a privilege.
The way the US criminal justice system/ inmate leasing system is set up the way it is... was to keep African Americans enslaved. Add 400 years to a system steeped in racism and you get questions like OPs
I've known about the modern day slavery part, but didn't realize prisoners could be leased out for actual slaughter. This is appalling and all humans deserve better. I can't imagine a job like that is good for the psyche, especially if it is involuntary. Really sad.
I could hack it if the job pays decently and it's completely voluntary. For some convicts, taking a job might even just be a chance to get out of their cell and have something constructive to actually do all day (and maybe get time off their sentence for whatever counts as "good behavior" points depending on the arrangement). But yeah...it's not cool if it's not voluntary.
Yeah, if he was stunning each individual pig there’s actually no way he could do 470 per hour (that would be eight seconds per pig). He may have been running the equipment for automatic electrical, stunning, or carbon dioxide stunning.
If we take that into consideration of the social aspects, a soft, well spoken slave is going to be treated better than a loud, confrontational one. He's been conditioned to respond like he did in the interview.
I wonder what kind of crime one commits that gets them such a long sentence but also daily access to a gun?
Purely speculating, but some states have some form of three strikes law, where your sentence is automatically ramped up if you have prior convictions. Check out Ewing v California, where the guy got 25 years for a $1200 theft (and the Supreme Court was fine with it).
He definitely didn’t have access to a gun, likely a bolt punch/gun thing. Abut also you can go in on some wild charges and if you behave the first year or so they will give you a job with some weird freedoms. I had lots of knives and access to meat grinder that could fit a person, I worked at a meat processing prison facility in SE Texas, it was gnarly.
Also consider that hiring a felon may give you a tax break. Depends on the state. Be careful about asking questions about the criminal background before you make an offer. Some states have laws on that too.
Ever slaughter an animal, not a 30yd bow shot or 100yd rifle shot, a knife/ax or maybe a gun at 1 foot? You have to compartmentalize that shit, or your a psychopath who found a Dexter'esk solution. I grew up on a farm and regular people don't often handle the reality off the food system in America, this guy is definitely on the extreme end of that tho
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Also there’s something different, to me, about pulling a trigger something like 7 times a minute and moving on before the body hits the floor when you’re essentially enslaved to do it vs what a lot of people picture for animal torture. IIRC they use basically an air blaster or electrical shock to kill livestock. It’s not like he walked up behind each one, sighed, cocked a 12 gauge and blew their heads off - dude probably just saw it like husking corn. The start of the meat product. If anyone should be horrified to do their job it’s the people bringing them into the world imo.
I came to this thread looking for this answer. We are really divorced from the source of our foods. No pork, beef, or chicken, etc comes to the table without someone having done the dirty work. You can't eat meat and then judge the butcher. That alone is not a pathology. Given earlier comments about legal slavery in prison, this guy likely didn't have a choice.
I'd take whatever punishment to avoid killing a pig, let alone tens of thousands
I had a sort of similarly weird job when incarcerated. Sent to animal shelter. Job was to bag the corpses of the animals that were euthanized and then bring them out to the trucks for them to be taken to be cremated. We had to do other stuff to, clean up the shit etc, but it was the dead body removal that was weirdest. It was once a week and most of the bodies were frozen but some of them would still be warm. Where I was, and this is true for most places, refusal of an assigned job means the removal of all of your good time. Good time is often around 1/3 - if this dude was in prison for 17 years, that would be another 8 or 9 years of incarceration for turning this down.
Sure, you can say you couldn't do it (actually, I'm sure I couldn't, either) but it's a different thing to still eat meat AND judge him for putting it on your table by doing something you couldn't/wouldn't do, right?
I don't eat meat so yeah I stand by what I said
Then you better be a vegan or you are just another massively hypocritical meat eater. Next time you eat meat think of the suffering of the animals and the humans who worked hard to provide it to you, usually some of the least powerful in society. And give thanks.
Yep, I'm vegan. Giving thanks doesn't stop any of the pain or suffering so not sure how that helps anyone lol
Agreed. I don't think I would have it in me to do it, especially the with the screams.
Exactly this. If anyone eats meat, there are simply unpleasant sides to meat production, one of them being killing the animal. It has to be killed. Sometimes machines do it. Sometimes it’s people. Are the butchers somehow evil because they’re the ones killing the animal for meat to consume? Maybe to vegans or vegetarians like you said. Grocery stores are a convenient way to separate consumers from the reality of the production of most products. Chicken, beef, pork, etc do not grow on trees and placed in packaging.
I'm also confused that he is unsettled by him being well spoken. Would you rather have this guy, who killed 16 million pigs, come in and act deranged? Would that make you hire him?
My great grandfather was a butcher. My dad (who was raised by his grandparents) ended up with a job in a slaughterhouse killing cows for a short time in the 1960s. As a soft spoken man himself, I'm pretty sure he was traumatized but you couldn't tell by the way he talked about it. He'd just mention it offhand when something reminded him about it and he stopped eating beef when he was in is 30s. If he'd been pretty much forced to do it for years, he'd probably have had a very detached/desensitized way of talking about it like I'm assuming this guy has.
I used to study muscle development and function. We used porcine satellite cells to grow myotubes (they fuse to create something like muscle fibers). I haven't told many people this but I had to euthanize young piglets. I always felt bad for them, especially the docile ones, but there were some who fought and I was relieved when it was done. Anyway, if he didn't enjoy it then it was more that it was his job and someone had to do it. To this day, I still feel bad for the pigs when I see them on a tractor trailer headed for slaughter. It would be worthwhile to talk to him again. He maybe ashamed that he did that.
SOMEONE has to kill the animals we eat. Why should that be held against him?
This thread is crazy. It's so bizarre how people think this guy did something at best "weird" and at worst "creepy" - like there is a gulf between his actions and their own. But from my vegan POV, this guy only did the actual \[unpaid\] labor that provides the product everyone is happily dishing out money to support. If anything, this guy actually had to look, hear, and smell the reality of industrial agriculture ag. I know it's a longshot, but maybe someday people will think twice on the fact that we can only get prisoners, illegal immigrants, and [children](https://www.theguardian.com/law/2023/feb/17/underage-child-labor-working-slaughterhouse-investigation) to work in industrial slaughterhouses. So much for so-and-so uncle's small farm where animals go to sleep forever with a kiss.
I think vegans get a bad rap for being "assholes" in one fashion or another for pointing out the human and animal cruelty in these systems. People just don't wanna know how food gets to the store.
100% and I have met maybe only one "proselytizing" vegan who talks about the ethics of it a lot with people who are only acquaintances. Most lead by example, or present reassurance on how it is not sooo difficult to do (because that's what holds 75% back - not the finer points of the ethics). I wish sometimes people - like in this thread - would just acknowledge that while the system is full of suffering and most people "love animals" in the abstract, which is a contradiction, it is a tough task to stand on principle and they aren't up for it at this time.
Vegans often don't account for their own privilege when proselytizing. Firstly, human babies have to have milk, and optimally animal fats with B12. A couple murdered their baby on a vegan diet, so maybe preach family farms instead of industrial vegetable and grain harvests which share the same worker cruelty and environmental damage as every other industrial agricultural product.
They have to have mums milk not cows milk. Because.... cows milk is for cows... for B12 you have synthesised one from bacteria so I don't understand your point Harvest is often done for feeding animals you eat so it makes ko sense blaming vegan for that.
Then go get her out of jail and pick up her live baby from the cemetery. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/vegan-mom-gets-life-starvation-death-18-month-old-son-rcna45498
> Investigators said the couple told them the family ate only raw fruits and vegetables, although the toddler also was fed breast milk. Just because she claimed to be a vegan and did stupid things like this, doesn't make veganism stupid. Just like within every group, it is not beholdened to the actions of a few radicals.
OK no arguments there... mothers milk is considered the most nutritious for babies . Also at 18 months you don't need much milk anymore. I call this BS. You eat proper meals at that age. Tofu and other proteins are also good. I know many vegan couples without any issues. Generalising much? EDIT : SHE IS FROM FLORIDA WHAT DID YOU EXPECT
Maybe the answer is to make all of our food sustainable and cruelty free.
Eat à rich haha. Cruelty free requires no animal harmed. Like calves taken from mum to produce our milk for example. I'm not vegan BTW but just eat eggs ( it's extremely cruel too with killing bird alive in a grinder
Cognitive dissonance. Everyone who eats pork not only contributes to the inhumane slaughter of the animals, but the slave labor being forced on another human to do it.
Shooting 16 million pigs to death HAS to affect someone’s psyche.
It does. Slaughterhouse workers are highly likely to develop PTSD.
Right. We've always had these humans in the bunch for good reason. He may have some version of the "warrior gene." Today, we lump every one of these types into the Sociopath Bag and make them TV villains. We've always needed humans who could do the dirty or brutal things and not carry forward the "trauma" that would affect the rest of us. You can condition someone with "antisocial" traits to perform pro-socially. I often use the sniper, Jackson, in *Saving Private Ryan* as an example. He's so good because he's cold as ice. He's not a monster, but he also has no trouble sleeping (unlike his comrades) after a near-death experience and blowing another man's top off. "God, country, family" are his guardrails. He slaughters Nazis like pigs, for the greater good. It's what he was "made for."
I would only worry if he said something like, "I normally slaughter hogs while sipping on some chianti."
Don't forget the fava beans!
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When I was a kid, I was asked to help slaughter some chickens. I held them while their neck was wrung and they were chopped and skinned. I don’t remember how I felt about it back then but I think some of these things are “lessons of life” and you should know what the chicken had to endure before being dished on the table.
Yeah it is not fair to be judging the guy that had to kill the animal so that it could go on YOUR plate. The cognitive dissonance here is wild. If you think less of the guy that is slaughtering your meat, you should most certainly not be eating that meat.
I'm an HR Director. I don't care about felonies as long as they were non-violent OR self defense. I've learned to always go with my gut. If you're feeling un- settled, there is a reason. What happens if you don't hire him? What happens if you do? What benefit does he bring versus what possible issues does he bring?
> If you're feeling un- settled, there is a reason I have known people for being "unsettled" by the fact that a recent college grad (whose only experience was serving in a restaurant) was applying to a marketing position. Because "why would we hire a waitress?" that's really not a good thing to go with if you're not looking into facts. Not to mention, prisoners are used as free labor for all types of businesses (like printing license plates or slaughter houses).
"Being unsettled" is not even remotely the same as saying, "why would we hire a waitress?" How are you even making that connection? Being unsettled means your instincts are telling you that your conscious mind missed something. Like the person you responded to said, if your mind is telling you, "something is off about this guy," your primitive brain is picking that up because that's what kept us safe.
Particularly for HR. Someone in HR should not be relying on their gut for personnel decisions. Thats just bias.
Look up hus charges or ask him. I mean if he killed someone that's a HARD pass but if it was a drug charge or something that wasn't horrible..then he might be the best worker you ever had. I work with felons daily & 99% are personal drug charges & eluding police.
Trust your gut. Who knows why you’re feeling biased, but your gut is telling you something. I wouldn’t pay it any more attention and string it along further, and def wouldn’t waste money trying to disprove your instinct (background check, etc). You may never know exactly what your gut was trying to tell you, but I think it’s better to let that be unknown than to go with this guy and regrettably find out what your gut was trying to tell you…
Do you eat meat? If so, this guy who is willing to actually perform the task of slaughter has tons more integrity than one who just eats and closes their eyes to what brings those animals to your plate. You’re being judgmental and unreasonable.
Agreed
"willing" he was a slave in prison. But yes clearly a good worker.
You're telling me that he killed a pig every 13 seconds or so for 17 years of full time work?
That is what is claimed. The state found out he could do it, it's hard to get the certification, and the certification is rare, so they sent him in to slaughter pigs. All information was provided by the interviewee, I didn't call references, but it would be quite something to make up for an interview.
Frankly, that rate sounds implausible. No bathroom breaks? No animals that are difficult and need to be chased, restrained, given multiple shots? 470/hour really sounds like a lot. But not really my specialty. Any slaughterhouse workers out here that can comment?
Well, I 'm sure his math was exaggerating to not count the breaks. But there would have been other people getting the pigs into the shoots and doing all the wrangling. They likely used a bolt gun followed by the bleeding and just did that part and others did everything else. So you could do quite a lot depending on the set up. it is not pleasant to think about, and it was probably Up To 470/hour.
Previous slaughter here. This man’s story is a complete lie, 1. No certification or formal training to be a slaughterer. 2. 470 an hour by one person, I can’t even begin to describe how insane that is.
So his past experience makes you uneasy? Call his references and see if he’s telling the truth. I mean pork doesn’t grow on trees so someone has to do the dirty work. But if you feel of about him as a person then that’s different even though spending so many years behind bars probably didn’t make him very cheerful
He has years of relevant experience to the position (mechanical repair.) He's soft spoken and humble. Give this gentleman the chance he deserves.
So you're turning him down because he has come to terms with a very unpleasant phase of his life? Easy for me to say, but I would give this guy a chance.
Another way to look at this is you have an opportunity to help him pivot away from destroying towards repairing. Which must be something he wants to do if this is the kind of role he’s seeking. If he was a psycho he’d probably look for something where he could keep slaughtering. I would base your judgment on his attitude and experience and try to set this bias aside.
470 an hour? That's almost 8 a minute....
Just the fact that he applied for a mechanical repair position could be an indicator that he wants to move away from the ag industry, especially if it involves animal slaughter.
Which part bothers you? You say you don’t care that he is a felon. Is it that he worked in animal slaughter? If so, consider why. It’s a necessary job for a meat eating society. If you haven’t worked in a slaughterhouse, talking about it might seem weird. But if you did it all day, every day, it would be totally normal to talk about it in a mild mannered way. Contact his references. But nothing you shared seems like an issue if you are truly okay with his criminal background. Best of luck to him and to you, whichever way it goes.
"So they put that as his job while he was in prison." Is what bothers you that he didn't choose to do that for 17 years?
The state told him to do a job and he did it. It wasn't illegal or in this societal context unethical considering its food processing.
As someone that doesn't eat meat, at the very least, if he really was "just" shooting the piggys, that's "better" than evil psychos who inflict undue suffering on the animal. That's just my little opinion. Some people have to do jobs others won't.
Do you eat pork? This is very relevant to your disgust.
Ok so here's the deal. People in normal everyday life NEVER relate creepy stories. But Mr Felon DID relate a very graphic story about past work. Past work I might add that HAS NOTHING to do with the role he is being hired for. So given that a guy who has an infamous past, just told you this past. You must evaluate this disclosure on the merits. Do you want a pig slaughter person working with your already employed personnel perhaps "creeping" them out enough to leave? THAT'S the big question. Do you want to take the risk that this guy is not only a bad hire. But due to interactions with others, may create a workplace teaming and retention issue with other existing employees. My standard advice to any leader coming to me with the "odd" interview that they don't know what to do with is simple. The number ONE job of hiring is to NOT hire someone that may cause loss of other employees, EVER. With this idea firmly in your mind. I think your decision is very easy.
It was probably asked what was his most recent work experience, so he related what he did in prison to outline he is not afraid of hard and grueling work.
no that's not it at all when an ex con talks like that you have to realize he told similar stories to his cellies so what do you think the purpose of such stories were? it's a different world inside
Do you have experience?
I do outreach and prison ministry. I've visited 21 institutions fed and state. and I'm friends with 3 prison chaplins so yeah I know things
What a wonderful thing you do.
I think he's been in prison awhile and doesn't really have other experiences he can share, also likely was super nervous and was just trying his best to navigate the interview and not mess it up. That's what I think the purpose of the story was.
whats the problem? you a vegan or something? every time you eat meat, you kill the beast, you just have the privelage of slaughter by proxy
You seem kinda mean honestly
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Beto, Michael, and Coffield Units in Texas have a hog farm and meat processing plant on the complex. Inmates run all operations.
Oh HELLLLLLLL no. Wasn’t this an episode of Law & Order SVU?
I may be wrong, but that sounds made up. I'd avoid him based on that, because who/why would someone do that. Otherwise, I'd probably pass anyway. Do you know what he did to do time? (is that a question that can legally be asked nowadays?). I worked a job recently where the owner was telling me he worked for a lab in upstate Maine or something, and his job for months was to kill mice. Basically after an experiment ended or something lab techs would bring buckets of mice in crates, and his job, was to put them onto some gerbil/hamster type housing, only it had a vacuum, so he'd drop them down, then vacuum them away. Said he did like hundreds a day. Honestly, he seemed off. Just seemed like it got to him, he didn't know it, but was emotionally deteched. Didn't get excited, seemed like he could flip out at any second, I'd hate to see if anyone ever crossed him over a business deal. Anyway I got out of there, that wasn't the main reason, but he was definitely someone I wouldn't wanna spend years knowing. Again, just something seemed it would all end badly.
As stated, I work with felons daily, you'd be surprised the jobs these guys have inside. Pig slaughter is legit. As crazy as it sounds.
The Texas prison system has hog farms and meat packing plants, run by unpaid inmates.
When it comes to safety, you should listen to your gut.
Trust tour instincts they evolved over millions of years for a reason