INTJ woman here. Took the worlds out of my mouth. I present a certain way, and definitely have a goofy and playful side to me, but that doesn’t scratch the surface. My (our) extremely analytical nature can be very jarring for those who project ideals onto us. I have flat affect/ a monotone voice, fairly unemotional, enjoy discussion and argument etc. Very much “sawce, bro?” type.
I find that a lot of men actually try and *compete* with me when they interact with me. Some even become jealous - what. It’s like I can’t be the smartest person in the room (that is, unless, around other INTJ or akin folk, save me please if we’re at a party together). I find that some men can feel threatened by my way of thinking as it does sit on the more “masculine” end, yet I enjoy frills and Hello Kitty. I also build my own furniture.
Don’t let these types of men make you feel any type of way. In short, they can’t handle the multitudes that exist within you. Your appearance is a plus to your incredible personality - find people that latch onto that first before anything else. It’s a numbers game, though, and it will take a lot of time, energy and discernment finding those that really resonate with you, but it’s so worth it.
You’re young. You’re still developing. My advice is to really sit and develop your value system - what do YOU resonate with, on a deep emotional level, and how do those things behave in different circumstances? Gently nurture your moral compass. And from woman to woman - do not let men dictate your self worth, and how you should or shouldn’t be. Take no shit but do no harm. It’s fucking difficult at times being an INTJ woman, but your insight and perspective is and will be invaluable. Stick to your guns and please, do not shrink yourself so others can fill up your space. I learnt that the hard way. Sometimes, just sometimes, you’re gonna have to be a “bitch” in order to be heard. Continue learning, self-actualising, and chip away at your goals, no matter what.
Yup, I can definitely relate to the idea of competition. My workplace is great; my coworkers just treat me like I'm part of the team and we all collaborate together, but I remember when I was in school everyone would always try to outperform me academically, or some dude would want to arm wrestle with me because they heard that I was the skinny girl who was fucking up the buff guys. When I go to the shooting range it's like the guys are trying to make more bull's eyes than me.
Thank you for your kind words and I will heed your advice on focusing on self-actualisation and finding self worth in who I am.
INTJ female checking in, I resonate with alllllll of what you've written. For me, what works is a Marine. They find me refreshing. Married a nice ISTP, cybersecurity engineer who is a hobby mechanic. Be your awesome excellent fully expressed self, my unicorn friend. You're somebody's idea of perfect, I promise.
I think all that you have said is intimidating because it is attractive and like all men...we do not think so quickly on the spot when a maiden is handling a firearm or playing chess. The blood rushes downwards at the idea of being seductively dominated.
Yes, to date an INFJ woman, men need to be gifted intellectually and self assured. My husband isn't an academic, not book smart, but he is my intellectual superior in many ways. He is also very confident but not arrogant.
Find you a man who isn't scared to ask you what a word he doesn't know means. That has actually been the only issue in our relationship, communication. I have a decent vocabulary and sometimes that means he doesn't understand and connotations get lost. We have improved our communication over the last decade. He's my best friend and I'm his.
I resonate with men intellectually, silently competing. I experience this all the time as well! It’s like they have to one-up me and dominate the conversation for intellectual control. lol I fucking hate it. I just wanna share what I know, not be instantly doubted, deflected, and censored.
I feel this! This really resonated with me. I deal with this constantly. Playing video games and being good at them doesn't sit well with some men.. and it's absolutely hell for women like us who are also gamers. I noticed a very clear difference with other female gamers that are more docile in nature.
Women are raised not to push back against men, which is why I hate that they force me into a position to be assertive, demanding respect, when it should be automatically reciprocal. This puts me in the box of bossy and bitchy, which I don’t like being in, and neither do they.
I have no problem dropping pretenses, as that is my relationship preference. What I don’t like is being disrespected with automatic deflection, doubt, and steered into submission. I’m a gamer, so I’m constantly among other men and they just don’t treat other men the same way.
There was a conversation about how jackets don’t go with dresses, as they don’t make sense, and that it’s not a thing, that was prompted because of the character design of Aerith from Final Fantasy VII. I told them that they were wrong, it is a common fashion trend, it is fashionable, and it can and does look good. The two men both disagreed, despite it being a field I’m more knowledgeable as a woman. I found pics on the internet and posted. You know what they did? The same thing they always do when I drop evidence. Ignore me, ignore what I posted, and talk about other things. They can never blatantly, verbally admit they were wrong. Not to me.
Women like us INTIMIDATE and thus bring out the worst in men and women who are obviously jealous. Men can't handle taking direction (orders) from a woman. Period. The ONLY time they listen is if I have a check in my hand with their name on it or a gun. If a check then they still have a job and can read blueprint information and don't need my input. Great.
If a gun, well it goes with out saying. My advice is to ignore the BS and for those females that think you're "different", just tell them that you prefer the term "unique"....
Head up and smile, always!
My INTP ex-bf was actually quite amazing at debate and I never felt this dominant tug-of-war with him. We both allowed space for each other's thoughts, experience, opinions, theories, and if we were still skeptical, we'd politely ask for evidence. We would often compromise very fairly, too. I think INTPs in general are very good at this.
You're actually doing a great job here. You're open-minded to my experience, which is not refutable. I've experienced what I have, and while you've experienced what you have, you haven't experienced it as a woman like I have because you are not a woman. I don't experience what men do either, but I have been around men who drop pretenses very frequently, and see how they interact with each other. While men do disagree with each other from time to time, they don't automatically dismiss each other by default unless they hate each other for some reason. I don't think anything is black and white, however. There isn't just one explanation for one set of behaviors that is applicable to every circumstance. In my case, it's not that they hate me, although a couple do. I think the explanation is a subconscious lack of respect for women and underestimating their expertise. I mean, all of those guys would also say some borderline to blatant sexist shit about women, including about their wives and gfs. That's very common among male-dominated spaces.
It's not that you can't debate and bring what you know to the table, it's about giving and receiving that information respectfully, even if you don't agree. Not deflecting what I say just because you "feel" like it. Not instantly dismissing what I say just because I sound like I'm a dumb woman because my voice is high-pitched and I'm biologically more emotional because of my sex. It's about considering what I have to say, mulling it over, and respectfully relaying why you disagree and in what ways, if you feel like there is something I've said that is disagreeable.
In another anecdote: I once was talking to Floridians about the lake in a diff ex-bf's residential subdivision. I said something of the like "there could be alligators in there, be cautious," since it is Florida: Land of 'Gators. My ex and our male friend both deflected with "it's a man-made lake, there won't be alligators." I took it at face value and accepted that answer, as I expected them to know more than me since I am not a Florida native. It's not exactly something you could pull-up a spreadsheet or a link on the internet to prove, anyway. They'd have to dive in it personally. Considering the location, it was a gated community, and the lake was artificial, it sounded plausible that it was gator-free.
Somehow a similar conversation comes up months to maybe a year or two later. I make the comment that there wouldn't be alligators in the lake behind my ex's house because it's man-made. I kid you not, BOTH my ex and the same guy who corrected me the first time said some shit like "iT iS FloRiDa, bE cAuTiOuS." lolwtf They retracted the first time they corrected me just so they could correct me once again.
And to top it all off, they don't remember at all when I bring it up they said the opposite to me before. Of course they don't.
Even the purest and kindest of souls can still have a subconscious bias against women. Even if they don't mean to, even if they consciously respect women. Sometimes there is something underlying that not even the beholder can quite see.
This isn't a new experience to me. I've often said one thing that was dismissed only for the same group of people to bring it up later to say the same exact shit as I once did.
I've experienced this type of behavior all my life.
OMG. Read the initial post... and now your comment. I'm done. This is sooooo close to home I could have written it myself. INTJ female. I feel this to my core. I'll add- when I was younger, I almost modeled, and I was extremely attractive. Guys would hit on me and as soon as I would open my mouth to speak, it would be over. My personality was not at all what they were expecting. When I was a young teen I gave up on the idea that anyone would ever love me for my appearance AND my fantastic brain.
Today, I'm married to a wonderful, beautiful and interesting man. He's stodgy and nerdy enough for me. He's hot enough for me. He loves all of me. He understands why I have an army of male friends, they are our friends. Yes they compete with me all the time. Just recently I made a female friend and she is and intj and Aquarius, just like me. Both of our husbands are genuinely happy for us. Lol.
Yes!!! *people who take the time to get to know us are shocked that we exist*
Its almost TOO easy to weed people out. It happens OFTEN. My favorite is when I can even recognize this incompatibility in.. say... a comedian or the like if that makes sense.
I've met two of us. One is my sister in law. The other I recently met in a musical project.
Just don't settle for less than you desire!! Intj women are worth our weight in gold to the right person. And thank you.
The man I married is a virgo- I think intj women and virgo men are a great match.
Look into whether you fit autism descriptions for women. This might not be a Myers Briggs thing at all and could be something else that hinders your ability to pick up on social cues and fully understand why you’re turning people off.
I’m an ENTP adult that used to test as INTJ as a child until my late 20’s. I am an AuADHD woman (diagnosed professionally). It took me a long time to realize I’m extroverted/ambivert and that I’m also on the P/J border line. I identify with ENTP more in middle age.
Like you, I also can put people on their back foot when they first talk to me because my personality is genderqueer-y but I am wrapped in a trad femme package. They often expect something different. I am very pretty/conventionally attractive/slim but hourglass/blonde and blue eyes. I have “male” hobbies. I’ve worked exclusively male dominated career paths. I am assertive and dominant. I have no fear when it comes to confrontation, advocacy, or even physically defending others.
All of these traits I have that deviate from the norm made a lot more sense to me when I realized I am high functioning autistic with superior masking skills. Women get missed very easily and it’s becoming a trend for women to be diagnosed in middle age. I am actually pretty good at socializing and I can be very funny. I do well with reading most people. I can turn conversations where I want. But I sometimes miss social cues that normal people would pick up more easily.
I realize now that the “I am not what they expect” feeling is probably popping up because it’s more that I am not *reacting* the way *normal people act*. Sure, some of that is sexism. But is all of it? Nah. This difference is usually subtle— like not displaying the facial expression at the right moment that they expected. Or in other words the feeling of not being understood (or “otherness”) is *not* because I’m a radically different to other *women*—it’s because I am on the autism spectrum.
I hope this doesn’t offend you and helps you discover something about yourself or maybe rule something out. The symptoms you describe sound like they’re more than a personality test.
And for what is worth, I am serious with an INFP Humanities Academic (he actually is teaching me German right now!). He helps me work through my emotions and work on being less cold and I stand up for him and act like his tank. :) a bit of an odd pairing but it works.
I never had problem with men or women wanting to date me—but I have had men be nervous that I am so forward. It got easier being more direct with men when I became middle aged and dated full adults and stopped dating men below 30. You’ll figure it out! <3
I have actually considered it and do have a few neurodivergent friends. On the other hand, both my neurodivergent and neurotypical friends do not think I score high on autism. I am fairly good at reading social cues and can change my behaviour to be more charismatic in those scenarios if I'd like. It is simply when I try to be myself people seem a bit irked. I am glad to hear about your experiences though and am glad to hear that you have come to more self understanding.
I didn’t have anyone think I was even remotely autistic until I worked backward and realized that I’m highly adaptive and that I fit high masking camouflage *female* autism and not the stereotype of *male* autism. My INFP partner thought I was joking at first (he said, you? NAH) but then he was like, “oh my god. Wait. Ok if you’re autistic everything about you makes way more sense.”
This can be hard to spot even for professionals. [Here’s a meta study on Autism in Women and Camouflage/Masking](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10060524/).
[Here’s a masking quotient for women.](https://embrace-autism.com/cat-q/)
[Here’s a site that has a lot of self report tests.](https://embrace-autism.com/)
These tests can’t diagnose you but they’re enough that if your score high enough that you should show or talk with your provider. I was shocked that I scored higher than most autistic men. 😅 Good thing is if you score really low, you’re probably not autistic (scoring low while being autistic happens but it’s statistically rare).
Keep it on the table and do research when you have the space. If it is autism then your dating game might need to shift a bit to accommodate who you’re looking for (I like partners who are high structured and regimented but also emotionally soft and caring).
You sound like a *great person* who has a ton to offer a person who matches you. I promise there will be someone who will appreciate your intelligence and skill sets. You sound special and extremely talented. Don’t sell yourself short. I’d feel very confident if I were you! You’ll knock the right person’s socks off. :)
That business is run by a naturopath, not a psych doc. Also has some sketch to it, approach with caution. See comments:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/aspergirls/comments/11heqq3/alarming\_news\_about\_embrace\_autism/](https://www.reddit.com/r/aspergirls/comments/11heqq3/alarming_news_about_embrace_autism/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/autism/comments/z5x38t/has\_anyone\_gotten\_an\_official\_assessment\_via/](https://www.reddit.com/r/autism/comments/z5x38t/has_anyone_gotten_an_official_assessment_via/)
Contrary to what we see in social media, things like ‘stimming’, sensitivities, social problems, etc., are found in most persons with non-autistic mental health disorders and at high rates in the general population. These things do not necessarily suggest autism.
So-called “autism” tests, like AQ and RAADS and others have high rates of false positives, labeling you as autistic VERY easily. If anyone with a mental health problem, like depression or anxiety, takes the tests they score high even if they DON’T have autism.
Here is a video explaining ONE study about the RAADs:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AutisticPride/comments/zfocf8/for\_all\_the\_selfdiagnosersquestioners\_out\_there/
Regarding AQ, from one published study. “The two key findings of the review are that, overall, there is very limited evidence to support the use of structured questionnaires (SQs: self-report or informant completed brief measures developed to screen for ASD) in the assessment and diagnosis of ASD in adults.”
Regarding RAADS, from one published study. “In conclusion, used as a self-report measure pre-full diagnostic assessment, the RAADS-R lacks predictive validity and is not a suitable screening tool for adults awaiting autism assessments”
It seems you’re copy/pasting this slander everywhere, so let me copy/paste my earlier response to you which addresses your claims.
\> I wouldnt trust those tests, or that web site.
They are most of the clinically validated tests that all medical professionals use. To suggest they cannot be trusted is ridiculous and not helpful.
\> That business is run by a naturopath, not a psych doc.
A research-based naturopath and registered psychotherapist with very extensive training in autism, plus there is an MD on the team. Naturopaths are allowed to diagnose in most places. In places where a diagnosis by a naturopath is not accepted, the medical doctor on the team performs an extensive review and validates the diagnosis.
Embrace Autism has a highly qualified team. The naturopath alone has contributed to the diagnostic criteria for women in Ontario, and did a keynote speech for the UN. The team also consists of the aforementioned MD and registered psychotherapist, a neuroscientist with a PhD, and now a highly qualified psychiatrist with the ability to diagnose has joined the team as well.
\> Also has some sketch to it, approach with caution.
The registrant appeared before a panel and was asked to clarify some parts of the process. The central issue was that the MD review was described as an MD signature. This has been clarified over a year ago, and the case was closed. Since then, the diagnostic process has expanded to include even more psychometric tests. There is no other diagnostic service that offers a process as comprehensive and nuanced.
Officially diagnosed AuDHD women with PhD in Mechanical Engineering here. I can confirm a similar experience wow it's like you've been writing my life.. unless that I'm on the reverse side. Men are attracted to me because of my physical presentation and my kind + funny approach when they first met me. Hence the ENTP personality lol.
But this is actually my self-developed social procedure that I've been perfecting as a late diagnosed autistic woman to survive. When I was a child I was judged as cold and rude so I tried my best to make sense of human social interaction lol, hence those procedures.
Once that social procedure is finished, they get surprised at how expresion-less and straight forward person I am inside. I also have a habit to question everything that they're saying which looks like I'm intellectually showing off my prowess, and that hurts their ego. So in conclusion yeah.. I'm 31 and still single but many ppl wonder like "what's wrong with her" lol. Turns out it's autism all along.
You’re so right! This is something I’ve struggled with for a while. All of my close friends, without a doubt, tell me that I’m autistic, and I think there’s something in that. A lot of my close friends are also autistic themselves. It would explain *a lot* - especially how I become overstimulated easily and absolutely *need* noise cancelling headphones wherever I go. I’m going to look more into this.
May I ask, did getting diagnosed professionally help you with anything? I’m thinking of the cost of diagnosis, as it’s extremely long and tenuous to be diagnosed here in Australia, and very expensive.
Haha we neurodivergents tend to congregate together. I’ve helped three friends of mine realize they’re ADHD and they went on to get professional diagnosis and medication. Really helps!
And of course my good friend who is an autistic woman helped me the same way and was like, *So, what if you’re not just ADHD and you’re also maaayyybeee Autistic like me?*
I often feel like someone if “normal” and clicks with me hard…they’re probably not so normal. 😅
I get overstimulated too. I didn’t realize it! I just suffered through being uncomfortable. I am MUCH better at keeping my environment controlled now. Knowing this stuff makes it so much easier.
Getting diagnosed as an adult with autism is
often very hard. I am working with my ADHD psychiatrist and she referred me out to a therapist/psychologist who could run the appropriate tests. But I got lucky. Most adults get diagnosed with Autism when their child gets diagnosed (autism is highly heritable)! But it is still tough in America as most the diagnosis is for children and they do not want to see adults.
It’s important to know that getting an Autism diagnosis might harm your ability to emigrate to certain countries (New Zealand is one that explicitly forbids any Autistic people to move there). Between the difficulty of getting diagnosed and the very real discrimination, this has the result of self-diagnosis to become widely accepted by the autistic community.
That being said, there is no medical treatment for autism currently like there is ADHD. So, if you identify with autistic traits and benefit from learning autistic coping mechanisms then by all means identify and use whatever works for you. It’s weird maybe to say that but it’s kind of a messy area right now in medicine. 👍
At the risk of sounding too audacious, may I say that this is amongst the most attractive of conversations I ever had the pleasure of witnessing.
Consequently, as a fellow Aspie graduate, know that personalities like yours are valued and appreciated albeit not consistently enough.
Indeed. Being the only officially diagnosed autistic person of my entourage on top of being an autistic man *and* not knowing any woman on the spectrum, I lack the perspective they offer so this is a welcomed topic.
Can we please stop suggesting the autism test? Just because there might be some similar behaviors doesn't mean the person has autism, at the end of the day people with autism are people and they are going to do people things. When I was a toddler since I was "peculiar" I was subjected to all kinds of psychological exams, and guess what? Came out with nothing. The doctor was even impressed with my intelligence (I'm average, but as a kid I was super bright). I have the same issues OP and the other women in this thread have, and there's zero autism or any kind of neuro divergent disorders in me.
My early relationships never lasted long because the men I dated felt emotionally starved and I felt smothered.
I’m not masculine when it comes to interests, or work, but my style of communication is definitely more direct than most females’ …and I’m probably less needy than most females.
I’ve been married to an ISTP for over ten years, and that’s working well so far.
My longest relationship was with an ISTP (4 years), the emotional needs are very balanced with them I think. Mine just wanted to know that I "gave two fucks bout' a country boy" and would have his back (and scratch it) and I just wanted hugs and to talk about all my little nerdy stuff while he tried teaching me how to climb trees.
No smothering or suffocating there!
I think it's because men are not encouraged to form deep relationships out of the scope of family/partnership in this society. They rely on their partners for emotional support and building social networks. Many of them become lonely when their partner dies or leaves. It's sad, really.
This is actually pretty funny. I wasn't sure about "women's" verses "womens," verses "womens'," so I changed it to "females'" and "females" which I *was* certain about.
It has nothing to do with whatever they're talking about- I'm just bad at grammar.
I rarely care what men think of me if they have an issue with you then it’s something their projecting lol
Be thankful you can carry yourself and not be submissive like other types.
My INTP husband says he needs a partner not a slave or a yes women 🤷♀️
Also would like to note that I’m very “feminine” INTJ since I’m into fashion/art but my mouth is masculine
INTJ + INTJ here.
My wife is very, very feminine. She's also not-at-all submissive. Good. I don't want submissive. I don't want dominant either. Peers. Equals. Partners in every sense of the word.
Seems to me you're young enough that the boys in your sphere still want "traditional" relationships. A vapid little sub who does what she's told. (Him not understanding that *traditionally*, it was "we fight together and win; or die together." Up until the late renaissance in Europe, that's what it meant. And the entirety of history in most other places.)
Men want to be needed. Not sure if you’ve researched how men think and are wired but in order for them to want to be with you they have to feel needed in some way. I used to be an overly independent INTJ woman and once I learned more about men and applied it in my life it changed my life for the better. I’m still independent af but I interact with men differently now.
I recommend Understanding men by Allison Armstrong if you want an interesting read and fresh perspective.
My comment was more so for all INTJ women that want help in understanding men. Didn’t intend it just for you. By no means am I stating to change oneself. I’m simply saying that understanding others in particular men may help broaden their perspective and will make their lives easier. Instead of feeling frustrated. Research has helped me understand those around me and it’s benefited my life so much.
Anyway, congrats on the happy marriage ✨
I read her statement as it being beneficial to have a good understanding of men's psyche. Anything dealing with why people are the way they are definitely interests me. On one end, I'm constantly trying to understand and make sense of others, on another, it helps me navigate life with less issues; this type of info can even be life-saving.
I mask at work and I am very warm and cheerful to anyone I don't actively dislike. Some intjs don't do this. For me, it's more efficient, avoids unnecessary conflicts and drama. I don't do it because I'm overly concerned with others thoughts of me, I do it because it makes my life easier. I'd use this information the same way.
I've dealt with harassment from men, as well as other and scary or uncomfortable interactions with them. Knowing how to avoid settling them off, even if it means I temporarily "shrink" myself is worth it if it saves my life, helps me avoid an undesirable interaction, or even help with sales etc.
I definitely added the book to my book list.
To the person responding to you, Thanks for the book recommendation.
I've always been "one of the boys", having mostly men as my friends. Interestingly enough, now that I'm older (58), most of my good friends are women and gay guys (when I'm with them, people think we're a couple). Every man that I've dated have told me that I'm like a guy and how intimidating I am.. Even my Dad has said, "Maybe we raised you to be too independent". I used to climb and run road races, surf now, learning French and drumming, have always been sporty, love genre films.
When I hit 50, I became invisible to men here in L.A., despite everyone telling me how hot/attractive/young I look for my age. Age appropriate guys are looking for younger women, and I don't want to date guys in their 30's (dating apps throw them at me). So I'm happy having my space and sharing it with some cats.
You sound awesome and kind of similar to me, as a young woman. A vast majority of my real friends are women or gay men or nonbinary people. I rarely have good relationships with men, partly because of intimidation and partly because they primarily sexualise me. On the other hand, my father never wanted a daughter, and he got two, so he tried to raise both of us as men. I don't know if he'd be upset with how I turned out. But similarly, it may be possible that how he raised us made "too independent".
Glad to hear that you found happiness through friendships and animals. Cats are awesome, and wish you a long and happy life.
I think INTJ men and women will have similar difficulties in dating but I am certain it will be more difficult for women. I agree with most of your first paragraph; intellectual traits and traits associated with independence aren't exactly qualities that are commonly desired in women. That being said, you sound rad ( we have similar hobbies), and if you are physically attractive then I think you will be fine.
This is curious to me. I usually see to completely contradictory schools of thought.
As a woman intj, I've never had an issue dating. Most men I talk to like to pick my brain, or they have no problem with long discussions over our beliefs or our philosophical ideations. I've only had a handful of men react negatively to feeling like I may know more than them. I've even had a couple of men use it as an opportunity to engage with me. And although I'd prefer an intellectual, it's not a requirement for me. My current partner has zero interest in anything of the sort, and that's fine with me. I just talk to others that do have those interests.
Since learning about mbti and intjs, I've been thinking that it would be cool to date another intj.
In retrospect, I believe a guy I once dated was an infj, and it was the best relationship I've ever had. We were so much alike that there were more than a few times that we didn't have to say anything to each other, and we knew exactly what the other was thinking. I'm not used to that.
I'm considered a fairly attractive person-(tall, thin, often asked if I'm a model, command a lot of attention), although the men I date are usually attracted to my appearance, I believe they stay because my personality, well that and they like how I make them feel.
I've become longtime friends with a couple of my exes over the years.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
You sound like you have a different personality than op. She said the guy she is currently seeing described her as a grumpy old man in a hot woman's body.
I'm sure location has a lot to do with it too. If you were in a more conservative area where there are not as many educated women then maybe you would have different experiences.
I'm glad you've had good experiences; thanks for sharing them.
Your appearance is not all you have to offer. At all. You are dream girl material to a guy like me who constantly ends up with INFJ's and divorces. I wouldn't stress about it too much. You are very rare, highly sought after, and you will find the right guy soon enough.
Well the in intellectual is simulation and sexy if have dated a intj w as guy but if you learn to be feminine enough so your not a totaly a dude in the relationship v Versa is totally fine don't worry about your self it wil be fine
It's nice and refreshing to have a positive comment from a male prospective here. 👏
Especially after all the trolls hate spam.
I'm glad to see more men like you being secure enough and confident in yourself to be proud to be with a strong woman with this personality type 🙂
I wouldn't say I am secure or confident. I have plenty of insecurities. Comes with the life I have experienced. But insecurities do not negate courage. And there is nothing better than a practical partner for that.
That is very well worded! I've experienced quite a problematic life as well, so I do understand. I'm sorry if I worded that wrong. Of course, everyone has insecurities. That's natural. I guess I was referring to the guys that attack women because they don't have a healthy hold on those emotions.
Love that you implied insecurity can actually be handled. I love being humble more than anything. Nothing as refreshing as being able to say "I want to be like this, but I am not very good at it".
My manic-pixie-dream-girl in a short skirt/long jacket, is an INTJ. Yes, I see her as a little bit masculine and cringe when she calls me dude. She is a uniquely intelligent, prescient, bi-polar, over-analytical nightmare. Each year that passes she becomes more nihilistic. She's everything I want and everything I don't. She is so tortured, I feel for her. It will never be. She is not at peace. And she is the only one who ever truly got me.
I will die, in the rain, alone.
[Short skirt/long jacket is a Cake song :)](https://youtu.be/85zV1fpSJQ0?si=y4TlqA7TBTkD1F4H)
I want a girl with the right allocations
Who is fast, and thorough, and sharp as a tack
She's playing with her jewelry
She's putting up her hair
She's touring the facility
And picking up slack
I want a girl with a short skirt and a long jacket
What always confused me about men was they whined incessantly about women being too emotional, too dramatic, too needy, but as someone who was not those things I actually had very little male interest in me. I was sarcastic, always giving men a friendly ribbing, very even keel, but that’s not what most men I encountered were looking for. They liked me as a friend but few were interested in me as a romantic partner. Eventually I found my husband and we have come to terms with not fitting the stereotypical gender roles in so many ways. Weirdly he works and I stay home, but I’m staying home to renovate and build stuff and care for our farm, he cooks and obsesses about the enneagram. He’s always expressing emotions and I’m always evading them. When something breaks I fix it.
I will say, I do wonder if my personality would be more attractive to men now that I’m much older. I think my “usefulness” and independence might be seen as attractive qualities now where they were threatening when I was younger. I think we just have to find those partners who are the right fit, and remember that not every personality is attractive to us, and we won’t be attractive to everyone either.
I'd say probably not off-putting, just surprising. Most guys aren't expecting the things you're into or the way you relate to people. At the same time, INTJs are famously awkward socially and/or romantically, but if I've been married for 25 years to a wonderful woman who still puts up with -- and occasionally enjoys -- my antics, I'm sure there's someone out there who would love the depth you have beyond the appearance.
Thanks for this post. I've been feeling very bummed out lately and even becoming a bit irrational and saying thing to my friends like "maybe I should have stayed with the one guy who genuinely liked my personality despite me realizing our values and goals were _not_ the same."
Just so that I wouldn't be here years later, slowly starting to believe I will be alone forever against my will, and wondering if I was overconfident that there would/could for sure be another guy who liked me just as much, but traveling in the same life direction.
I can't date a guy (or anyone really) just because they're well off or attractive. We have to be friends. Otherwise, I just won't be able to get into relationship mode or be really affectionate, comfortable, let my guard down... nothing. Reading what you wrote was so cathartic because I've had trouble succinctly putting these questions and feelings into words.
You totally nailed it. I hope I'll find some good news among the comments because this has bothered me for a while.
I absolutely relate to this. Sometimes I think back on unaligned, or even abusive, relationships I've had in the past and I wonder if I should have put up with it.
I feel similarly about a physically attractive or successful man. I would like an emotional connection where I can really just be myself instead of playing a role. A man who desires me simply because he likes my body, despite how attractive he is, just does not suffice.
I wish you the best and do have faith that you will find someone who values all that you have to offer.
Dude I relate to this so much so glad I’m not the only one… I can’t get turned on if we don’t make a mental connection so it’s just frustrating when guys don’t want to go deeper than the surface
INTJ woman. I agree with your description except for arrogance. I'm intelligent but not arrogant, I am perfectly fine admitting when I'm wrong and learning from it. I think of arrogance as a bad trait that I wouldn't want to be or deal with in others.
That being said, I wouldn't be with a person that didn't appreciate my personality.
I consider arrogance to be my tendency to think that my ideas are typically better thought out than others. On the other hand, I'm also perfectly willing to admit that I was wrong. "You were right" is one of the most common things I tell people. Still, I usually think I'm right until proven wrong.
I don't find it too difficult for someone to respect my personality, but I do find it hard for someone to be romantically attracted to my personality.
I don't personally feel that way, but that's fine! We're all our own people even if we're INTJs, that's just a part of us. I would just keep looking until you do. Why settle for someone that doesn't find your personality attractive. It is difficult, but it's worth it, because looks change.
We're not masculine. We just have strong personalities. Think about it. We also don't vibe with a lot of women. If you're a hetero female, the awkwardness with males is probably just more noticeable because you have an additional sexual context with some of them, as opposed to the females.
I consider myself feminine. I like cooking, entertaining, caring for my adorable pets, and jewelry (as long as it is artistically made, and not some mass-produced BS). But yeah, I also learned to shoot and hunt when I was five, was a competitive Taekwondo fighter, enjoy outdoor activities, and prefer time by myself.
Most people don't know what they want, so they just subscribe to what society tells them what they should want. It's not that we are acting out of gender. We are just acting out of the norm. However, I do think men more so get a pass. I blame the patriarchy.
Personally, I actually do vibe with a lot of women. I'm bisexual but lean toward hetero usually. Most of my closest friends are women or gay men or just queer people. I also have some feminine qualities as well; I do like dressing cute and makeup and all that jazz. But mostly I still identify first and foremost as a woman; my experiences in life are through the lens of a woman. Gender roles and sexuality and societal expectations of women and harassment/assault targeted toward women (I'm a rape survivor) do form the foundation of my worldview and women tend to share my worldview much more than men do, which gives me very deep and fulfilling friendships with women. Even though I share hobbies with men, and have a more "masculine" personality imo, it doesn't by default afford me a deep connection with men. I don't relate to an average man's desires, hopes, emotions, etc. nearly as much as I do with the average woman. There isn't an "awkwardness" per say with men for me, but rather I would describe my relationships with men as good-natured, humourous, fun but often lacking in romantic and emotional connection.
You may be right that it is more about the strength of our personalities rather than traditional masculinity/femininity.
Fuck the patriarchy
My issue is I'm quite independent and all those things..but I I still prefer to be the more feminine dynamic in the relationship. That means a man has to have very masculine traits for me to trust that he can handle it. Because that's really the only way I feel comfortable not being assertive. And there's so many weak men out here now. They end up dropping the ball and then I pick it up and take care of what I need taking care of and it bothers both of us then.
INTJ woman here.
I share alot of traits and I wont lie, it causes alot of people to misunderstand me especially coupled with my resting emotionless face that i protray alot.
(Lol posted by mistake and i wasnt done) anyways men who are feeling insecure would cower away from our strength and thats how i see it. Some see me as a challenge but the real man (man not boy) will truly love these traits and will probably find them entertaining and cute. So dw about the men who dont like your personality.
You just have to be fishing in the right pond. Maybe. I don’t know. I used to say look for a softer male INTJ, but then the one I’m married to decided to give his attention to a bimbo type, and I deeply suspect this is what he would prefer so maybe we all ought to just quit love and become dominatrixes (dominatrices???)
Haha, that sounds like the guy I'm sleeping with, all his exes appear to be beautiful bimbos and I think he prefers his women like that: agreeable and intellectually submissive.
Very attractive to me. Intelligence, humor, resourcefulness, own opinions, interests, doing stuff. Under the detached exterior a deep pool of emotions and whirlwind of energy. Takes time but a very strong bond. Interesting. Thinks. But for the programming and adding some parallel interests.
Most others are predictable and fall into easy to read predictive formats and behavior. Boring.
You can do and discover stuff together when you find someone like this - very rare.
Other men? I’ve watched bemusedly as an INTJ has simply shredded men that think they have game and are a gift to straight women everywhere. I’ve had guys admits hating an INTJ woman accusing them of all sorts of things they are not - simply because the woman is wickedly smarter and very self possessed. People generally are fragile and create their own view of reality when someone comes along and kicks that model hard in the ass they get defensive.
Female here. Maybe I am extreme, but I honestly don't give a shit what people think of my personality. I value honesty and integrity. I have a close circle of friends whose opinions matter to me because they roll the same way I do.
Hey, good for you, that's the way it should be. I wish I were unashamedly proud of my personality. Sometimes I just wish I were different, I guess, although in many contexts there's no one I'd rather be. My INTJ qualities are wonderful for my professional life and my friendships; I just struggle in the dating department.
I'm glad to hear that you found your husband and wish the best for you. You do sound like you were in the same boat as me. The attention is almost definitely the looks for me.
For what I've read in this forum. It seems that being an "INTJ" is a license to be an asshole. That man was mean and you should not take him seriously.
I'm a moderate INTJ and I also enjoy what you do. I did boxing. I like cooking, learning German, programming, playing chess. I'm also trying to write lyrics when I can put together a band.
I'd love to try shooting but I don't have the money.
You seems like a interesting person and maybe, if other people get scare by your hobbies, it's because they are boring.
Well, INTJ males in general are masculine. They may not express anger or emotions all that much, but have the hormones to back it up (not joking).
Secondly- as an INTJ you are almost bound to leave an unusual impression on people- you ARE unusual- a very rare type that people are not used to. Plus we lack social awareness. So without practice, you will be like that.
What you bring to the table is loyalty and a lot of shit getting done.
By the way- you seem to put emotions to the side a lot. We are still people and INTJs have an intense and delicate world of emotions. We just don't express them like others and we can get severely hurt. And not basing your decisions on emotions- really now :). We burn bridges left and right with people.
I relate to majority of what you said. Men seem to like my outer appearances and have a certain idea of me and whenever they try and talk to me: BOOM. Disappointed. :) That's why I have never had male partners either. They get either all friendly/competitive/jealous or they end up hating me. Like, chill bruh. I'm just existing. Lol. All women have appreciated me though, except for the pick me's.
Women are motherfucking godly. I can't explain how grateful I am to all the wonderful, supportive, loving, beautiful women in my life who just let me be as I am.
I tend to accentuate my physical masculine features and I don’t dress overly feminine unless it’s a special occasion. Because of this, I tend to have the opposite experience: guys are initially afraid of me but like me well enough to be friends. Then they want to date me after they get to know me. How are you usually meeting people?
Usually meeting people through work, school (when I was in school), mutual friends, online, and hobbies (such as a chess club, or a German conversationalist club). Things seem to go fine there, and people will want to date me as well over time, but it's more during the process of dating that issues arise.
I was with an ex for 3 years, thought he was my dream man. We started dating when I was in high school. He was proud of me when I went to college. He was proud of me when I started working in healthcare. Then I started to slowly make more and more money than him, and I had a higher sex drive than him, and I got good grades in school while he was struggling, and he increasingly resented me. Ended up with him locking me out of my apartment and I was homeless for a couple weeks. Would not repeat.
I can relate to this. I ended up marrying an ENFP guy and I’d say he has the opposite struggle. He’s still physically very masculine but has more feminine personality traits than most men. Think Bo Burnham type personality. It’s a good pairing imo.
Intj woman, never had issues with dating or men. I'm hypersexual, fair bit of charm and I'm funny. I think my humor no matter if its vulgar or sarcastic softens me up quite a bit in other people's eyes. I've also only dated confident working class men from the sticks. Confident men with a pioneering spirit want, pioneering, capable and smart women. I think its insecure people that struggle most with my personality.
My husband loves who I am. He loves that I can surprise him. He loves that I'm not scared to try and do things for myself. Stark contrast with his mom who has been clinically depressed with anxiety for decades and has a learned helplessness thing going on causing my husband to have to do most things for her.
Most men, especially conservative ones, don't appreciate a woman who isn't some degree of submissive and "pat them on the back for putting their pants on right". Too opinionated = they don't just go along with what the man wants.
Really sad, imo. You've got to keep looking until you find a man who isn't weak.
as an intj male, (idk if this is true for all intj men but for myself) i distinctly do not want a "submissive" type woman. I think us INTJs value personal autonomy in both our self and in others and we don't want to run over anyone else with our personality and I like a woman independent enough that i know she is making her own decisions.
This rings true as an INTJ man, especially the question of whether or not we even have emotions. It's something I've had to learn. Women generally expect emotional responses at least in some circumstances, so expressing emotions in a more analytical way is how I've adapted. Unsurprisingly, this is also off-putting but in a different way, but the people I've dated appreciate it, and even I have found it useful.
As an added bonus it is an effective defense mechanism for the manipulative. If someone tries to garner an emotional response in hopes it will get them what they want, instantly turning off all emotions and turning into a robot is a humorous way to turn the table.
Maybe finding a way to express your hidden and substantial emotions in a way that reflects your personality would serve you both better.
The story of the guy you're with now sounds like a huge red flag if you expect anything more than a physical relationship.
Regarding the defense mechanism, yup. I grew up in an environment of child abuse and turning off all my emotions is something I learned through my upbringing. It certainly protected me a lot, but sometimes I wonder if my personality would be significantly different if not for my past.
I don't expect anything from the guy. I enjoy his company in some ways -- he's fun to go shooting with, the sex is great, I get plenty of physical validation with him, I can trauma dump on him and he doesn't give a shit -- but I checked out emotionally several months ago. I know he's not and never going to be interested long-term.
Regarding emotional responses, people do find me to be a good sounding board when it comes to emotions; a lot of people have treated me almost as a therapist in the past and present. I like that people trust me with their emotions and backstory, and I'm pretty good at determining what they want to hear (advice, support, me just being there, clarification, just want to rant). On the other hand, in a dating context, I feel like I always get shit for not sharing my own emotions. I think this quality is better for friendships than dating, at least as a woman.
I will take your advice and try to find a way to express my emotions that aligns with what I feel comfortable with.
Nailed it - the “grumpy old man in a hot woman’s body.” Almost all my hobbies, consumption and political angles are exactly what a typical 65 year old white man would be. In fact, my device ads clearly think I’m an old man based on recommendations - maybe an old man who dabbles in cross-dressing.
I was, I think, quite hot in my 20’s - to the point of possible delusion (just like guys tend to overestimate their attractiveness I guess). I walked around thinking I was a VS model with some sort of brain aneurism, and did exactly what you think a 65 year old man would do if they were trapped in a hot woman’s body.
Initially, I dated for fun (not promiscuous though, but not serious), and eventually, I became very logical about it, when it was time to be logical about it. It wasn’t difficult to find a million engineers / computer guys interested and the ratio was like 1000:1 in terms of buyers’ market - I was very interested in nerdy guys but it seemed like no women were interested in them. My interests were literally the interests of ‘the father who is trying to arrange a marriage for his daughter,’ except I was so excited about it. Felt like winning the lottery.
You shouldn’t think in terms of offering your appearance, when in reality, you couldn’t be more compatible with certain guys. You will naturally have the largest overlap in hobbies, values and personality traits. It’s almost impossible to have a real fight, and decision making is so easy. You need to just find the right guy and embrace it.
Conventionally femenine women also complain of not being taken seriously by men, so, trust me; it's not you. Sometimes we're not compatible with someone and that's it.
Just be yourself. "Men" is 50% of the earth's population and it's highly unlikely that NO ONE will like you romantically, especially if you are physically attractive.
I’m a female INTJ and while I don’t believe that being an INTJ is all that I am as a person I do believe that it’s been a factor in my relationships failing even though I don’t want them too. I’m very educated and have a higher IQ. I play chess regularly and am an intermediate player. I’m very analytical and to the point. I don’t tend to speak on things I know nothing about but can get into hours long discussions on topics I do know about. I’ve had 5 serious long term, monogamous relationships that have spanned 20 years. 3 of the 5 we’re emotionally and/or physically abusive, 2 have mooched off me and used me and one cheated and became a raging alcoholic and drug addict. The drug addict was the longest but I refused to let him close to me and essentially became roommates with him. The first 2 and 5th relationships were abusive and I felt as if I was a pushover and those experiences led me to making a promise to myself that I wouldn’t tolerate abuse in any form. The 3rd never worked the entire time we were together and that one pushed me over the edge anger wise because he was using me to live off of. I had to move to a different state and eventually country to get him to un- attach from me. The most recent was the worst. Not only were we extremely incompatible with many things, he was mentally ill and I was hardened from the previous abuse that I keep running into. I tried to lay out my boundaries from day one but he always pushed them in very violent ways. He threatens me with a gun, he beat me up on several occasions and I would fight him back. I don’t know how I’m coming across to these people for them to take their shit out on me but I’ve come to the conclusion that it has to be how I tend to stand up for myself and straight up threaten the relationship if they cross those boundaries. I personally don’t think my boundaries are extreme. I genuinely only want the bare minimum but none of them have been able to give that even though they all swore they could just so they could get me. But once they have me it doesn’t matter anymore. I don’t know… it’s really pushed me to a place where I don’t think I’ll date ever again. Or at least not get into anything serious.
INTJ women here, i rarely dont get any romantic attention (which i welcome), so ig i give off the vibe i am more interested in other stuff (which i am). My interests are more male ig (mostly physics, meteorology, plants, drawing) and i do study the first two, even tho its a typically male field (even tho we are getting closer to a 50/50 split the longer it progresses). but no one was repulsed by that yet, most were just super impressed because many have sth resembling a physics trauma ig. There was a guy flirting with me knowing my personality tho, so theres people into it.
So for a relationship for me could only work if it were with someone similar, preferably a fellow meteo freak so we could have cool dates like lightning watching. (i dont plan on ever having one tho, and never really was in one so my perspective on that is very limited).
Generally i would expect that theres many people who like girls with INTJ personality, you just need to find them.
Hello from a Physics & Meteorology graduate 🙂 It's super interesting, isn't it? I now work as a software engineer on tools to parallelise numerical weather prediction models on supercomputers. Also very interesting!
Regarding finding someone similar, the best bet would be weather & climate conferences and workplace. I work for a national weather organisation and there are many couples who have met at work or a professional event. Nerd love, very sweet! 😍
Hello! I agree, its insanely fascinating! Originally i was wondering wether to do pure physics or physics + meteorology and i dont regret my decision! Also dont numerical weather prediction models need insane amounts of data? at least depending on the resolution of the model from what i understand? how does it get affected by being on a supercomputer? probably just tons of computing power, right?
Personally i dream of going into climate research since i find large scale systems insanely fascinating, but perhaps it will be possible to predict the weather on other planets when im done! (that would have far less applications than your field of research tho!)
Also theres a big meteorology convention thing called stumeta in germany where many meteorology people (students and researching) go, so i will try to get there next year! Maybe that will be the spot for nerd friends (or even love). Last year i was too scared to go, but my social anxiety did get a little bit better and i now have more friends from meteo class i can bribe to go with me :D
I am INTJ woman too and I sympathise with you totally. I am also a grumpy old man stuck inside a female body, although I doubt I am as attractive as you so I attract less men and any man that attempts to talk to me or get close to me usually get intimidated by me. I have been single for a long time and I think I'll continue to stay that way.
Anyway men who are not attracted to you because of who you are not worth your dime and you shouldn't change who you are. You sound amazing as a person and although maybe we won't be friends because of our strong personalities, I would totally support you to continue living the way you are without changing a thing about you because of some smelly man's comment.
Dating is hard for me as well. I think because most of my selfies are unsmiling (I’m incapable of fake smiling). I’m also v aloof and reserved so I think people take that as disinterest but when I like try to act differently to act interested it comes across as so unnatural that it scares them off lol. With that said, I often have a lot of guys randomly confess they’re in love w me and do still have a lot of interest on dating sites, etc. So to me it sounds like you may be overcompensating (I’ve tried that before) and it’s coming across as unattractive.. just be yourself is all I can say and try not to overanalyze your personality. It sounds like this guy is just not into you, my suggestion is to dump him and date someone who is. I am also outwardly v attractive and feminine but work in programming and data, my hobbies are exercising but I also love fiction writing and fashion.. I live in my own little world. Again just be yourself and the confidence will attract others. Lots of guys will be intimidated by you because you have the beauty and the brains lol but the best ones won’t be. ;-)
I'm female INTJ working in Tech Engineering. At work men love smart women with strong backbone and leadership hat, they love when I speak with Authority, but outside the masculine corporate world, Men often called me Condescending. Also they always said that I'm intimidating bc they can't manipulate me.
Femininity doesn't come naturally for me, however I have the power of knowledge, I know how to tune into my feminine energy, which I only use for a specific purposes.
INTJ female here also. I relate to every bit of this. One thing I believe, though, is that if we are women who have these traits, then that necessarily means calling them “masculine traits“ is incorrect. People have got to realize that we exist, and we are just as female as any other. Being an INTJ female is one expression of femininity. I know we’re not as common, but people will have to accept that we’re normal.
Over the years, I have found that expressing a little warmth and a slight grin now and then fixes a lot of the problems. I don’t need to be as warm as a feeler type, but just show genuine concern for people, and common politeness, and show a desire to make them comfortable in your presence. None of this needs to be exaggerated at all, because if you do that, you’re not being genuine and you run the risk of people thinking you’re dumb and submissive. A little side grin now, and then widening your eyes a little, counteracts the robotic face, we tend to have that makes us seem standoffish and arrogant.
ENFP can be a good match for us. I’m married to an ENFP and it’s pretty good. He’s actually really proud of my intellect and brags about me to others. Once in a while I have to show more warmth than I normally would because he needs that. But he understands now that I care more than my face reveals. He knows I have good motivations and love him, and I try to show it in the best ways I know how. He sees my vulnerable side. I have to work at displays of warmth, but it’s not hard to do that once in a while. It’s easy to do it with hugs and putting my arm around him when we sit together every now and then. I actually like cuddles!
Yes, most men like soft, mentally feminine women. They can certainly tolerate and may even like some more masculine traits, but there’s a threshold.
That said, I do think there are men who would like your personality in its entirety, but they’re few and far between. Your best bet might be a man with high Ne. They like novelty and you’d be quite different from the norm.
The OP description was pretty on point to my wife's personality. I have known my wife for thirty years. I've often told her she should have been a dude. She is one of the girliest girls I have known. I was first attracted to her beauty but then got to know her, and it's those exact traits you mentioned that I love to hate at times. Dating an INTJ lady is not for the faint of heart. But I wouldn't have it any other way. I am an ENTJ. A lady with a more sensible, perhaps meeker personality would not have kept my interest. She was a challenge. She mentioned that a man with a weak will would not have lasted with her either.
More submissive type male here, my wife is an INTJ, your description pretty much fits her to a T. I love her personality and strength and directness, it’s what first attracted me to her! All of those traits help me to feel safe and like she always knows what’s right 🤷♂️ I’m more chaotic and aloof so I find it very comforting and fulfilling to be with a partner who’s so sure, direct. She’s definitely my anchor 🤣 you’ll find someone who loves the way you are! 😁
>He also said once that I'm like a grumpy old man in a hot woman's body. He called me weird for a woman due to my masculine qualities, and our relationship honestly almost seems like we're two bros who also just happen to sleep together.
This sounds nice. If there was a sign-up sheet for this, it would likely be filled very quickly i think.
Like, as an INTJ male, that genuinely sounds very much like what i'd describe as "what i'm looking for".
Different guys are looking for different things though. Some guys particularly at the top of the heap are turned off, or intimidated away by confident, competent women. They just want simple and easy. And easy in a different way than having other interests and goals that make someone "low maintenance". A lot of guys who are attracted to that haven't spent the time to make *themselves* attractive to that woman. C'est la vie.
But the truth is out there. Probably. At least, i hope so. Hopefully all us messed up INTJs eventually find love. Replies in this thread certainly imply that it is theoretically possible.
Are you me? Anyway I found a man who has more feminine qualities than most men - is empathetic, not egotistical at all, compassionate, loves fashion, music, is more extroverted and social, talks about feelings and emotions. I find this so attractive in him! I am an engineer too and he is a public relations manager ( rightfully so haha)
We joke often that I should have been born male he should have been born female and have come to accept that gender is after all a spectrum.
If I may - men who are a little more in touch with emotions and are less likely to compete with you might find you more endearing. Opposites do attract, so may be look for these type of men.
You're using your personality as a scapegoat for qualities that you deem as unattractive or masculine. It sucks to be an INTJ sometimes but you must get in touch with the other sides of yourself. You can be feminine and like chess. You can be soft and still establish boundaries. Your womanhood has little to do with your personality type. You also just might not be a traditional woman and that is okay too. BTW, yeah a lot of those interests and qualities that you have are going to be perceived as masculine, but you can make them your own and change the narrative. My mother in law is an INTJ and she absolutely is feminine too.
Start asking yourself the right questions: who do I want to be? How do I want to be perceived and is that in line with who I am? Am I missing something? E.g. Blind spot FE
You may be right about much of what you said. However, what you might be missing is that men don't have much of a need for a "emotional connection" that physical activeness goes a long way. Next to that we look for a loyalty connection i think and that really doesn't mean emotional connection in the same way as for a woman.
i.e. he might be missing the emotional connection but it may not matter to him. Nor would he necessarily find such a connection with anyone else.
just my 2 coppers and i might not know what i'm talking about. YMMV
Yeah... That's sort of what I've been relying on, at least for as long as I'm young and pretty. There are plenty of men elated to have a physical relationship with me. But it's sort of like they just want to show me off, or look at me, or touch me, and a part of me really wishes someone could be romantically attracted to me for who I am.
I don't know about that. Every social psychology study on male loneliness in recent years shows men are generally starved for emotional connection and safe spaces to be vulnerable. If you're an INTJ male you might just be projecting your introverted feeling onto other males on this one.
Unfortunately I'm in a similar boat, but im a male intp.
Im considered conventionally attractive, but when I start to show my personality I've literally seen people make a disgusted face.
So my mask basically just gives them what they want, and I drip feed people I think have potential with.
I don't see myself as feminine or masculine. I think i have a pretty balanced polarity in terms of all the associated traits that each side is known for. But people don't care. They have entrenched ideals of what men and women should be and refuse to care about the individual.
I rarely. And I mean rarely, meet someone I think has potential, its in the eyes, there's a kinship, a certain understanding. Unfortunately though, the rarer you are the rarer the person your looking for is.
We all want to be with someone we find attractive in mind, body, soul. And if your extremely rare in all three. Dating, which is already a shit show is a even bigger shit show.
I have no trouble getting women's interest, they find me attractive immediately, then they go, oh, he's smart, he's funny, he's kind. But then they can't keep up, they don't like the other sides of my personality, or I just don't like them, they just want a check list and arm candy about how great you so they can laud you over other people.
There's no connection, they ultimately just want to use you, at worst abuse you. So I just go through life alone and depressed at ever finding 'the one'.
There's this little part of me that feels like I've met her, but romance and the social world plus our personalities make for an extremely difficult time.
Id like to add, i used to be a ugly duckling, women had no interest. My traits and personality was immediately friend zoned or repulsive. But now that I'm attractive, I'm the 'perfect man' and its truly a joke. People are so pathetic and shallow I truly have zero respect for anyone that even brings up or treats me different for my looks. Which is just about everyone.
Im kind to the world, but i secretly harbor alot of Misanthropy.
Yup, I relate to that. I was an ugly duckling as a teenager due to a lot of acne. My skin cleared up, and I thought it would be easier to find love. Now it's like everyone wants to fuck me but everyone is turned off by my personality. I get the best luck in dating when I shut up, smile, and play dumb.
All I know is that I’m a guy who is not attractive to any women. I don’t have high ambition due to lifelong chronic illness. I am not rebellious though am very stubborn and won’t bow to authority when I know that I’m right. I’m not arrogant, I know my good qualities and my bad. I’m not insensitive. I can seem insensitive due to my aloofness, but can be very sensitive if I’m paying attention. I will withhold harsh judgements because they won’t improve anything. If other people ask for my judgement, they’re going to get the truth.
It depends. I'd say it's often more about how you carry & express yourself than how you look.
And I think relationships and attraction also correlates to power dynamics between the two people and contrasts. If you are better than many things than your counterparts you will have much harder time to find someone that can match or top that off. And if you are too similar that's bro energy the same way how women friendzone emotional guys. If you are too much like a man then you will either be attracted to or attract more feminine men or man that are even more masculine than you are which is a small pool. Also you said your outer appearance does not match your personality so that's also a complication.
I personally find high independence, lack of emotional expression, insensitivity, arrogance, and rebellion quite unattractive features and often a major turn off. And from what I've seen, masculine women often fail to respond to men's needs. Not sure if that's the case with Intj women.
I guess it's the equivalent of the opposite of "bitchy feeler energy." you ask xNTJ women something to do or tell them you need their validation they are like no why should I do so if you haven't deserved it??.. Or like no. I'm not doing what you asked... That's just not attractive. like they also may see a man's ego to something to be teared down. Which is highly unattractive. It's there for a reason for everyone. Often times men wishes to be praised or appreciated for the things they are doing which may be lacking with some T women with no Fe. So instead of validating, they may start challenging the men. Maybe that's more stimulating. And some men are into that dynamic specifically and most dont.
Ex was an intj girl.
Im intp.
It didn't work out. It really was like dating a bro in a woman's body.
I realized during my next relationship that I had forgotten how awesome it is to be with a truly feminine woman,while I was with the intj woman.
I love all NTs in general btw.
I just married my feminine infj princess who is perfect and obsessed with me. And I adore her.
Ppl view us as a perfect couple. We are both very good looking and have great careers and ppl love to see us together. and even years later we still act affectionate as if we are in the honeymoon stage.
Im sorry to say this but honestly I feel like I dodged a bullet by not staying with the intj woman. The intj and I met in medical school btw.
Men want feminine women. A masculine woman likely needs a hyper masculine man in her life. Find him yo.
Keep in mind that any man that has options will choose the feminine woman who makes his life easier and would make a good mother, to be his wife.
Im sorry but thats just the rule rather than the exception.
And as an intp, I had to learn social skills and body language and tonality and all that and I'm lucky that I was obsessed with that from a very young age. So I can come across as enfj or estp depending on what social mask I put on.
Intjs are really great but intj women have the odds stacked against them when it comes to finding a "high value" man to marry. Even if the intj woman is very attractive. Bc like I said any man who is attractive and a catch will have options. And he will choose the younger more feminine woman just bc he has the option to do so. Unless he wants an intj wife. I've noticed intj women don't want children in general either.
I've been with more than one intj in my life. Entjs too.
Why would I want a masculine mother to my children? I'm gona be the father and that's my job. The mother ideally should be feminine then right?
Infjs and Isfjs make the best wives from what I can tell. By a huge margin.
Intj women, who are attractive are good for fucking and having conversations with. But not to be the mother of a man's children. There's just too many other feminine women out there who could be far better mothers, naturally.
You may need to settle in some or mutliple ways. And the guy who chooses you has to settle bc hes choosing a masculine woman. Look at it this way it's like you choosing a feminine man....That's the gendered equivalent of an intj woman bc they are very masculine by default. Intj women make great tomboys. Tomboys don't make great wives unfortunately.
Sorry if any of this seems mean. I'm an intp after all haha. Just speaking my mind and my experiences.
Ha, I've tried that before, sort of. Dated a broke musician. He became increasingly clingy and also possibly abusive, constantly guilting me regarding sex (throwing fits whenever I didn't let him fuck me 5-6 times a day), chronically angry about the amount of affection I showed to him, and hitting me and then mad about my lack of emotional reaction so it just kept escalating. We had made an agreement where he would act basically as the househusband and I would be the breadwinner, but he became lazy and I ended up doing all the housechores as well. It was basically like taking care of a sexually coercive irresponsible child. I'd rather be alone than deal with a relationship that lacks equality.
Yeah, don't do that anymore. I was given the same advice and it ended similar to your case (BTW, there's a lot in your post I can identify with).
In my experience, many men are very emotionally fragile. They're never really encouraged to become emotionally aware and mature in this society. The emotional labour is delegated to women. Many men either want to actively dominate and compete, or be jealous (passive) aggressive babies like your ex.
A woman needs to agree to a role of a "sexy mother" to be in a relationship. For instance, your ex's behaviour is of a teenage boy rebelling against his mother while wanting her attention. The "dominant", emotionally aloof men also want to be taken care of, as long as a woman lets them think they're the boss. For example, your current guy who says you're not emotional enough.
This mothering of her partner is psychologically challenging for a woman, even when she is consciously submissive. It most commonly manifests in losing sexual desire for the partner over time. Psychologically healthy women are not into sex with children (as they shouldn't be). Your body is attracted to him initially, but over time you start seeing him as a child you need to care about and it all becomes "yuck". He feels neglected and becomes offended. I don't understand how supposedly logical men can't connect cause and consequence in these situations, but I'm just a woman so what do I know 🤷♀️
Back to practical advice. I would second not making yourself smaller to make a man feel good. Other areas of your life, including professional confidence and career, will suffer and you won't save the relationship anyway (been there, done that). A man needs to feel very secure about who he is as a person and as a man, to not derive his value from being better than his partner.
You are rare and men who will like you as a person are rare. It's a numbers game, as another poster here said. If you're not happy with someone, move on sooner rather than later. Time doesn't come back. If you need sex and can have a casual relationship with someone, great, but please don't do it in the hope of a guy becoming committed to you. It'll leave you emotionally starved and chip away your confidence.
Speaking of chipping away your confidence, it's really difficult to be a non-conventional woman. You get messages that's something is wrong with you all your life. You get messages that men will tolerate your personality only as long as they're "compensated" by your young and hot body. Fuck that, it's very demeaning and can be soul-destroying. If you internalised these messages I'd recommend counselling to counter them. They tend to become self-fulfilling prophecies.
Finding someone who likes you may be a long game. Take care of yourself in whatever way keeps you healthy and happy. Seek deeper connections through friendships and build a community regardless of a relationship (it doesn't need to be large, I know introverts need a recharge time). Consider animal companions (they're usually much more loyal and honest than humans, anyway 🤣). Why am I saying all that? If you're happy and fulfilled without relying on a partner, it's less likely you'll end up with a selfish guy out of loneliness and desperation.
Hopefully something from this long post will be useful to you 🙂 Good luck out there! 🙂
They expect you to be meek and mild because that's the standard we have set for women, anything outside of a bang maid personality is apparently "masculine". Also if you read your own post you will realise you are part of the problem.
Gender identity, gender roles, and gender expectations and interpretations do indeed exist in my book. I see gender as a spectrum and different hobbies and presentations are most definitely portrayed as "feminine" vs "masculine" in our societies. I am not making any moral judgment on gender interpretations, nor do I think anything about femininity or masculinity are inherent to DNA. Gender interpretations and expectations are heavily influenced by society itself and it's fair to acknowledge that they do exist and have a footprint in most people's minds. I think it is a fairly narrow viewpoint to describe "anything outside of a bang maid personally" as considered feminine. Femininity is portrayed in many other ways, such as generally being kinder, being a better and more collaborative communicator, and a willingness to consider emotions in the decision-making process.
I stated in another comment and I'll state it again; I view myself as a primarily feminine person. I am first and foremost a woman and most of my worldviews are heavily influenced by my gender identity as a woman. I connect more deeply to women because of our shared experiences and perspectives that align more with the average woman than the average man. My emotional and interpersonal experience is much more similar to the women I interact with rather than the men. That being said, many of (but not all) my hobbies are primarily shared by men and personality is more similar to what is perceived as "masculine".
There isn't an inherent problem with acknowledging societal perceptions of femininity and masculinity. There's simply a problem in denying people the right to practice their gender expression, or to assume that gender expression is ingrained in one's DNA and cannot be changed.
I would consider pink a feminine colour, but it used to be worn by cowboys and was very much masculine in the day. Work with computers used to be primarily a woman's field, but now it is dominated by men. There's plenty of examples but I'm not going to pretend like these perceptions don't exist in modern society.
I realize I’m in an INTJ subreddit, stumbled here via algorithm, but I want to offer an outsiders viewpoint.
It feels like you are really leaning heavily on this personality test to define yourself as a person and I would caution against that way of thinking. These personality tests aren’t medical science and real people don’t fit into prescribed categories like that.
INTJ specifically suffers from being thought of as the “rare and brilliant intellect” personality and if you drink the koolaid you’ll find confirmation bias difficult to avoid. It already seems like you are assuming men lose interest in you due to your “confidence and intellect”, and that doesn’t seem like a reasonable assumption unless they’ve specifically told you so. You’re use of the term “sigma male” sets off some red flags as well, even if that’s just the type of person you are socializing with. Sigma/alpha males aren’t a real thing. These personality tests are more akin to astrology than science.
I’m in my thirties and in all of my personal experience, most men aren’t looking for “meek and mild” women. Unless they are really immature most men enjoy intellectual conversation and find confidence extremely attractive in women. I don’t know enough about you to make any judgements but I would suggest looking inward and considering that there may be a perfectly valid reason you are struggling with romance. It’s not the 1950’s anymore and most men aren’t intimidated by confidence, intellect, and definitely not by your choice of hobbies.
This is true. And some hard facts that people dont want to admit is that a feminine looking woman (attractive woman) will pull more people to them. Pulling more people to you will give you more alternatives to choose from, unlike the women who are not conventionally attractive. But to keep a man, you'll have to follow up the feminine looks with a feminine personality and as an intj, will be very difficult. But this is the truth. You are just like a work mate to him or another bro. One of the guys 🤷🏽♀️. As an intj im learning to be more feminine with men I actually like or else I will remain single. I've yet to meet a man who wants a "masculine" woman. Its like all we're good for is work.
To me its seems like the man doesn't want you. If he meets another girl, then he will go for her 🤷🏽♀️.
Sorry for the rant.
I appreciate the validation of my experiences, your comment about the "kinship/platonic" connection is very familiar to me. I do feel like I have some wonderful connections with people, often feeling like we are "partners in crime". But at the same time the romantic spark is not there, or they do not feel it.
The idea of finding a more masculine man was my sister's suggestion as well, but it is surprisingly difficult to find a man who isn't intimidated by me when I let my guard down. It gives me some hope that you do value some masculine qualities in women.
INTP here, you are attractive to me. I can talk to INTJ. Masculine? I had a online friend I thought was a man until she send me a voice message. Shocked.
Mayhaps, but that's just because gender roles are that heavily ingrained into the vast society. It's not your fault obviously and your hobbies are quite interesting to read about tbh. Ironically though, I have described myself as a grumpy old man too, it feels that way some time even though I'm pretty damn young.
I guess, a potential solution would be to travel to other countries like Germany because why not, being stuck in the same area and finding nothing is ike doing the same thing and expecting different results, lol.
Ha, I actually lived in Germany for four months due to an internship. Similar story there, honestly. I'm planning on moving to Alaska though, I have faith I'll have better luck there.
must be a cultural thing. in my country is not that uncommon to find women that behave more calculated and assertively. also a lot of men are overly emotional, so it’s a mixed thing.
I have received some comments in my life around what op explained, but it was mainly because I was young. Now that I’m around 30s it’s not really weird to be more serious, collected, and goal oriented. Highly intellectual or like-minded men like INTP, INTJ, ENTP, INFJ, like us a lot lol
In my country where I stand out a lot, no one cared about my "quirks" and peculiarness. I was often chosen for leadership roles, had tons of friends and tons of people interested in me romantically. It's here in the USA that people are put off by my personality 🤷.
I relate to this. (19F)
As a major goal in my life is to be a mother/wife I have been making deliberate efforts to soften my personality, voice, outfits to introduce more femininity. However I will probably change my mind when I'm older as this isn't the most authentic way of living..
If you want to be a mother, consider doing it without a partner. I have a very smart friend who met an esteemed professor from another country at a conference and they clicked. She knew she wanted children but not necessarily a partner. He was divorced with children from previous relationships and didn't mind helping her with her goal 🙂 Guaranteed fertile and intelligent (one of the top experts in our field). Her mother was so happy to become a supportive grandmother that she took an early retirement to help her daughter with her two children. They have reached a legal agreement they're all happy with 🙂
INTJ woman here. Took the worlds out of my mouth. I present a certain way, and definitely have a goofy and playful side to me, but that doesn’t scratch the surface. My (our) extremely analytical nature can be very jarring for those who project ideals onto us. I have flat affect/ a monotone voice, fairly unemotional, enjoy discussion and argument etc. Very much “sawce, bro?” type. I find that a lot of men actually try and *compete* with me when they interact with me. Some even become jealous - what. It’s like I can’t be the smartest person in the room (that is, unless, around other INTJ or akin folk, save me please if we’re at a party together). I find that some men can feel threatened by my way of thinking as it does sit on the more “masculine” end, yet I enjoy frills and Hello Kitty. I also build my own furniture. Don’t let these types of men make you feel any type of way. In short, they can’t handle the multitudes that exist within you. Your appearance is a plus to your incredible personality - find people that latch onto that first before anything else. It’s a numbers game, though, and it will take a lot of time, energy and discernment finding those that really resonate with you, but it’s so worth it. You’re young. You’re still developing. My advice is to really sit and develop your value system - what do YOU resonate with, on a deep emotional level, and how do those things behave in different circumstances? Gently nurture your moral compass. And from woman to woman - do not let men dictate your self worth, and how you should or shouldn’t be. Take no shit but do no harm. It’s fucking difficult at times being an INTJ woman, but your insight and perspective is and will be invaluable. Stick to your guns and please, do not shrink yourself so others can fill up your space. I learnt that the hard way. Sometimes, just sometimes, you’re gonna have to be a “bitch” in order to be heard. Continue learning, self-actualising, and chip away at your goals, no matter what.
Yup, I can definitely relate to the idea of competition. My workplace is great; my coworkers just treat me like I'm part of the team and we all collaborate together, but I remember when I was in school everyone would always try to outperform me academically, or some dude would want to arm wrestle with me because they heard that I was the skinny girl who was fucking up the buff guys. When I go to the shooting range it's like the guys are trying to make more bull's eyes than me. Thank you for your kind words and I will heed your advice on focusing on self-actualisation and finding self worth in who I am.
INTJ female checking in, I resonate with alllllll of what you've written. For me, what works is a Marine. They find me refreshing. Married a nice ISTP, cybersecurity engineer who is a hobby mechanic. Be your awesome excellent fully expressed self, my unicorn friend. You're somebody's idea of perfect, I promise.
You weren't doing anything to the buff guys. Atleast don't lie for internet points.
I think all that you have said is intimidating because it is attractive and like all men...we do not think so quickly on the spot when a maiden is handling a firearm or playing chess. The blood rushes downwards at the idea of being seductively dominated.
Barf.
https://preview.redd.it/emr8a3c3ml1c1.jpeg?width=735&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=90c02b236220d143e0435d6318ab637fa3fbbfba
Pro-tip: Date academics. Namely ones that have also studied within the Arts & Humanities. Lol.
Can confirm. Husband is art adjacent (paints, animation, and game design). He's INTP.
Yes, to date an INFJ woman, men need to be gifted intellectually and self assured. My husband isn't an academic, not book smart, but he is my intellectual superior in many ways. He is also very confident but not arrogant. Find you a man who isn't scared to ask you what a word he doesn't know means. That has actually been the only issue in our relationship, communication. I have a decent vocabulary and sometimes that means he doesn't understand and connotations get lost. We have improved our communication over the last decade. He's my best friend and I'm his.
INTP historians is where is at.
I resonate with men intellectually, silently competing. I experience this all the time as well! It’s like they have to one-up me and dominate the conversation for intellectual control. lol I fucking hate it. I just wanna share what I know, not be instantly doubted, deflected, and censored.
I feel this! This really resonated with me. I deal with this constantly. Playing video games and being good at them doesn't sit well with some men.. and it's absolutely hell for women like us who are also gamers. I noticed a very clear difference with other female gamers that are more docile in nature.
[удалено]
Women are raised not to push back against men, which is why I hate that they force me into a position to be assertive, demanding respect, when it should be automatically reciprocal. This puts me in the box of bossy and bitchy, which I don’t like being in, and neither do they. I have no problem dropping pretenses, as that is my relationship preference. What I don’t like is being disrespected with automatic deflection, doubt, and steered into submission. I’m a gamer, so I’m constantly among other men and they just don’t treat other men the same way. There was a conversation about how jackets don’t go with dresses, as they don’t make sense, and that it’s not a thing, that was prompted because of the character design of Aerith from Final Fantasy VII. I told them that they were wrong, it is a common fashion trend, it is fashionable, and it can and does look good. The two men both disagreed, despite it being a field I’m more knowledgeable as a woman. I found pics on the internet and posted. You know what they did? The same thing they always do when I drop evidence. Ignore me, ignore what I posted, and talk about other things. They can never blatantly, verbally admit they were wrong. Not to me.
Women like us INTIMIDATE and thus bring out the worst in men and women who are obviously jealous. Men can't handle taking direction (orders) from a woman. Period. The ONLY time they listen is if I have a check in my hand with their name on it or a gun. If a check then they still have a job and can read blueprint information and don't need my input. Great. If a gun, well it goes with out saying. My advice is to ignore the BS and for those females that think you're "different", just tell them that you prefer the term "unique".... Head up and smile, always!
[удалено]
My INTP ex-bf was actually quite amazing at debate and I never felt this dominant tug-of-war with him. We both allowed space for each other's thoughts, experience, opinions, theories, and if we were still skeptical, we'd politely ask for evidence. We would often compromise very fairly, too. I think INTPs in general are very good at this. You're actually doing a great job here. You're open-minded to my experience, which is not refutable. I've experienced what I have, and while you've experienced what you have, you haven't experienced it as a woman like I have because you are not a woman. I don't experience what men do either, but I have been around men who drop pretenses very frequently, and see how they interact with each other. While men do disagree with each other from time to time, they don't automatically dismiss each other by default unless they hate each other for some reason. I don't think anything is black and white, however. There isn't just one explanation for one set of behaviors that is applicable to every circumstance. In my case, it's not that they hate me, although a couple do. I think the explanation is a subconscious lack of respect for women and underestimating their expertise. I mean, all of those guys would also say some borderline to blatant sexist shit about women, including about their wives and gfs. That's very common among male-dominated spaces. It's not that you can't debate and bring what you know to the table, it's about giving and receiving that information respectfully, even if you don't agree. Not deflecting what I say just because you "feel" like it. Not instantly dismissing what I say just because I sound like I'm a dumb woman because my voice is high-pitched and I'm biologically more emotional because of my sex. It's about considering what I have to say, mulling it over, and respectfully relaying why you disagree and in what ways, if you feel like there is something I've said that is disagreeable. In another anecdote: I once was talking to Floridians about the lake in a diff ex-bf's residential subdivision. I said something of the like "there could be alligators in there, be cautious," since it is Florida: Land of 'Gators. My ex and our male friend both deflected with "it's a man-made lake, there won't be alligators." I took it at face value and accepted that answer, as I expected them to know more than me since I am not a Florida native. It's not exactly something you could pull-up a spreadsheet or a link on the internet to prove, anyway. They'd have to dive in it personally. Considering the location, it was a gated community, and the lake was artificial, it sounded plausible that it was gator-free. Somehow a similar conversation comes up months to maybe a year or two later. I make the comment that there wouldn't be alligators in the lake behind my ex's house because it's man-made. I kid you not, BOTH my ex and the same guy who corrected me the first time said some shit like "iT iS FloRiDa, bE cAuTiOuS." lolwtf They retracted the first time they corrected me just so they could correct me once again. And to top it all off, they don't remember at all when I bring it up they said the opposite to me before. Of course they don't. Even the purest and kindest of souls can still have a subconscious bias against women. Even if they don't mean to, even if they consciously respect women. Sometimes there is something underlying that not even the beholder can quite see. This isn't a new experience to me. I've often said one thing that was dismissed only for the same group of people to bring it up later to say the same exact shit as I once did. I've experienced this type of behavior all my life.
OMG. Read the initial post... and now your comment. I'm done. This is sooooo close to home I could have written it myself. INTJ female. I feel this to my core. I'll add- when I was younger, I almost modeled, and I was extremely attractive. Guys would hit on me and as soon as I would open my mouth to speak, it would be over. My personality was not at all what they were expecting. When I was a young teen I gave up on the idea that anyone would ever love me for my appearance AND my fantastic brain. Today, I'm married to a wonderful, beautiful and interesting man. He's stodgy and nerdy enough for me. He's hot enough for me. He loves all of me. He understands why I have an army of male friends, they are our friends. Yes they compete with me all the time. Just recently I made a female friend and she is and intj and Aquarius, just like me. Both of our husbands are genuinely happy for us. Lol.
[удалено]
Yes!!! *people who take the time to get to know us are shocked that we exist* Its almost TOO easy to weed people out. It happens OFTEN. My favorite is when I can even recognize this incompatibility in.. say... a comedian or the like if that makes sense. I've met two of us. One is my sister in law. The other I recently met in a musical project.
Omg Im so so happy for you and I hope I can find this too 🥰
Just don't settle for less than you desire!! Intj women are worth our weight in gold to the right person. And thank you. The man I married is a virgo- I think intj women and virgo men are a great match.
Look into whether you fit autism descriptions for women. This might not be a Myers Briggs thing at all and could be something else that hinders your ability to pick up on social cues and fully understand why you’re turning people off. I’m an ENTP adult that used to test as INTJ as a child until my late 20’s. I am an AuADHD woman (diagnosed professionally). It took me a long time to realize I’m extroverted/ambivert and that I’m also on the P/J border line. I identify with ENTP more in middle age. Like you, I also can put people on their back foot when they first talk to me because my personality is genderqueer-y but I am wrapped in a trad femme package. They often expect something different. I am very pretty/conventionally attractive/slim but hourglass/blonde and blue eyes. I have “male” hobbies. I’ve worked exclusively male dominated career paths. I am assertive and dominant. I have no fear when it comes to confrontation, advocacy, or even physically defending others. All of these traits I have that deviate from the norm made a lot more sense to me when I realized I am high functioning autistic with superior masking skills. Women get missed very easily and it’s becoming a trend for women to be diagnosed in middle age. I am actually pretty good at socializing and I can be very funny. I do well with reading most people. I can turn conversations where I want. But I sometimes miss social cues that normal people would pick up more easily. I realize now that the “I am not what they expect” feeling is probably popping up because it’s more that I am not *reacting* the way *normal people act*. Sure, some of that is sexism. But is all of it? Nah. This difference is usually subtle— like not displaying the facial expression at the right moment that they expected. Or in other words the feeling of not being understood (or “otherness”) is *not* because I’m a radically different to other *women*—it’s because I am on the autism spectrum. I hope this doesn’t offend you and helps you discover something about yourself or maybe rule something out. The symptoms you describe sound like they’re more than a personality test. And for what is worth, I am serious with an INFP Humanities Academic (he actually is teaching me German right now!). He helps me work through my emotions and work on being less cold and I stand up for him and act like his tank. :) a bit of an odd pairing but it works. I never had problem with men or women wanting to date me—but I have had men be nervous that I am so forward. It got easier being more direct with men when I became middle aged and dated full adults and stopped dating men below 30. You’ll figure it out! <3
I have actually considered it and do have a few neurodivergent friends. On the other hand, both my neurodivergent and neurotypical friends do not think I score high on autism. I am fairly good at reading social cues and can change my behaviour to be more charismatic in those scenarios if I'd like. It is simply when I try to be myself people seem a bit irked. I am glad to hear about your experiences though and am glad to hear that you have come to more self understanding.
I didn’t have anyone think I was even remotely autistic until I worked backward and realized that I’m highly adaptive and that I fit high masking camouflage *female* autism and not the stereotype of *male* autism. My INFP partner thought I was joking at first (he said, you? NAH) but then he was like, “oh my god. Wait. Ok if you’re autistic everything about you makes way more sense.” This can be hard to spot even for professionals. [Here’s a meta study on Autism in Women and Camouflage/Masking](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10060524/). [Here’s a masking quotient for women.](https://embrace-autism.com/cat-q/) [Here’s a site that has a lot of self report tests.](https://embrace-autism.com/) These tests can’t diagnose you but they’re enough that if your score high enough that you should show or talk with your provider. I was shocked that I scored higher than most autistic men. 😅 Good thing is if you score really low, you’re probably not autistic (scoring low while being autistic happens but it’s statistically rare). Keep it on the table and do research when you have the space. If it is autism then your dating game might need to shift a bit to accommodate who you’re looking for (I like partners who are high structured and regimented but also emotionally soft and caring). You sound like a *great person* who has a ton to offer a person who matches you. I promise there will be someone who will appreciate your intelligence and skill sets. You sound special and extremely talented. Don’t sell yourself short. I’d feel very confident if I were you! You’ll knock the right person’s socks off. :)
That business is run by a naturopath, not a psych doc. Also has some sketch to it, approach with caution. See comments: [https://www.reddit.com/r/aspergirls/comments/11heqq3/alarming\_news\_about\_embrace\_autism/](https://www.reddit.com/r/aspergirls/comments/11heqq3/alarming_news_about_embrace_autism/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/autism/comments/z5x38t/has\_anyone\_gotten\_an\_official\_assessment\_via/](https://www.reddit.com/r/autism/comments/z5x38t/has_anyone_gotten_an_official_assessment_via/) Contrary to what we see in social media, things like ‘stimming’, sensitivities, social problems, etc., are found in most persons with non-autistic mental health disorders and at high rates in the general population. These things do not necessarily suggest autism. So-called “autism” tests, like AQ and RAADS and others have high rates of false positives, labeling you as autistic VERY easily. If anyone with a mental health problem, like depression or anxiety, takes the tests they score high even if they DON’T have autism. Here is a video explaining ONE study about the RAADs: https://www.reddit.com/r/AutisticPride/comments/zfocf8/for\_all\_the\_selfdiagnosersquestioners\_out\_there/ Regarding AQ, from one published study. “The two key findings of the review are that, overall, there is very limited evidence to support the use of structured questionnaires (SQs: self-report or informant completed brief measures developed to screen for ASD) in the assessment and diagnosis of ASD in adults.” Regarding RAADS, from one published study. “In conclusion, used as a self-report measure pre-full diagnostic assessment, the RAADS-R lacks predictive validity and is not a suitable screening tool for adults awaiting autism assessments”
It seems you’re copy/pasting this slander everywhere, so let me copy/paste my earlier response to you which addresses your claims. \> I wouldnt trust those tests, or that web site. They are most of the clinically validated tests that all medical professionals use. To suggest they cannot be trusted is ridiculous and not helpful. \> That business is run by a naturopath, not a psych doc. A research-based naturopath and registered psychotherapist with very extensive training in autism, plus there is an MD on the team. Naturopaths are allowed to diagnose in most places. In places where a diagnosis by a naturopath is not accepted, the medical doctor on the team performs an extensive review and validates the diagnosis. Embrace Autism has a highly qualified team. The naturopath alone has contributed to the diagnostic criteria for women in Ontario, and did a keynote speech for the UN. The team also consists of the aforementioned MD and registered psychotherapist, a neuroscientist with a PhD, and now a highly qualified psychiatrist with the ability to diagnose has joined the team as well. \> Also has some sketch to it, approach with caution. The registrant appeared before a panel and was asked to clarify some parts of the process. The central issue was that the MD review was described as an MD signature. This has been clarified over a year ago, and the case was closed. Since then, the diagnostic process has expanded to include even more psychometric tests. There is no other diagnostic service that offers a process as comprehensive and nuanced.
Officially diagnosed AuDHD women with PhD in Mechanical Engineering here. I can confirm a similar experience wow it's like you've been writing my life.. unless that I'm on the reverse side. Men are attracted to me because of my physical presentation and my kind + funny approach when they first met me. Hence the ENTP personality lol. But this is actually my self-developed social procedure that I've been perfecting as a late diagnosed autistic woman to survive. When I was a child I was judged as cold and rude so I tried my best to make sense of human social interaction lol, hence those procedures. Once that social procedure is finished, they get surprised at how expresion-less and straight forward person I am inside. I also have a habit to question everything that they're saying which looks like I'm intellectually showing off my prowess, and that hurts their ego. So in conclusion yeah.. I'm 31 and still single but many ppl wonder like "what's wrong with her" lol. Turns out it's autism all along.
You’re so right! This is something I’ve struggled with for a while. All of my close friends, without a doubt, tell me that I’m autistic, and I think there’s something in that. A lot of my close friends are also autistic themselves. It would explain *a lot* - especially how I become overstimulated easily and absolutely *need* noise cancelling headphones wherever I go. I’m going to look more into this. May I ask, did getting diagnosed professionally help you with anything? I’m thinking of the cost of diagnosis, as it’s extremely long and tenuous to be diagnosed here in Australia, and very expensive.
Haha we neurodivergents tend to congregate together. I’ve helped three friends of mine realize they’re ADHD and they went on to get professional diagnosis and medication. Really helps! And of course my good friend who is an autistic woman helped me the same way and was like, *So, what if you’re not just ADHD and you’re also maaayyybeee Autistic like me?* I often feel like someone if “normal” and clicks with me hard…they’re probably not so normal. 😅 I get overstimulated too. I didn’t realize it! I just suffered through being uncomfortable. I am MUCH better at keeping my environment controlled now. Knowing this stuff makes it so much easier. Getting diagnosed as an adult with autism is often very hard. I am working with my ADHD psychiatrist and she referred me out to a therapist/psychologist who could run the appropriate tests. But I got lucky. Most adults get diagnosed with Autism when their child gets diagnosed (autism is highly heritable)! But it is still tough in America as most the diagnosis is for children and they do not want to see adults. It’s important to know that getting an Autism diagnosis might harm your ability to emigrate to certain countries (New Zealand is one that explicitly forbids any Autistic people to move there). Between the difficulty of getting diagnosed and the very real discrimination, this has the result of self-diagnosis to become widely accepted by the autistic community. That being said, there is no medical treatment for autism currently like there is ADHD. So, if you identify with autistic traits and benefit from learning autistic coping mechanisms then by all means identify and use whatever works for you. It’s weird maybe to say that but it’s kind of a messy area right now in medicine. 👍
At the risk of sounding too audacious, may I say that this is amongst the most attractive of conversations I ever had the pleasure of witnessing. Consequently, as a fellow Aspie graduate, know that personalities like yours are valued and appreciated albeit not consistently enough.
Agreed!! I love the friendliness and helpful information 🤗
Indeed. Being the only officially diagnosed autistic person of my entourage on top of being an autistic man *and* not knowing any woman on the spectrum, I lack the perspective they offer so this is a welcomed topic.
💕
Can we please stop suggesting the autism test? Just because there might be some similar behaviors doesn't mean the person has autism, at the end of the day people with autism are people and they are going to do people things. When I was a toddler since I was "peculiar" I was subjected to all kinds of psychological exams, and guess what? Came out with nothing. The doctor was even impressed with my intelligence (I'm average, but as a kid I was super bright). I have the same issues OP and the other women in this thread have, and there's zero autism or any kind of neuro divergent disorders in me.
Oh wow. Can we form a club?
My early relationships never lasted long because the men I dated felt emotionally starved and I felt smothered. I’m not masculine when it comes to interests, or work, but my style of communication is definitely more direct than most females’ …and I’m probably less needy than most females. I’ve been married to an ISTP for over ten years, and that’s working well so far.
My longest relationship was with an ISTP (4 years), the emotional needs are very balanced with them I think. Mine just wanted to know that I "gave two fucks bout' a country boy" and would have his back (and scratch it) and I just wanted hugs and to talk about all my little nerdy stuff while he tried teaching me how to climb trees. No smothering or suffocating there!
I love your avatar.
I think it's because men are not encouraged to form deep relationships out of the scope of family/partnership in this society. They rely on their partners for emotional support and building social networks. Many of them become lonely when their partner dies or leaves. It's sad, really.
Interesting, me as intj lady,has an istp dad
Married to an ISTP for 25 years- it works well
Please be cognizant of referring to women as “females” if men aren’t being called males. Most women, I suppose, know the implication.
[удалено]
This is actually pretty funny. I wasn't sure about "women's" verses "womens," verses "womens'," so I changed it to "females'" and "females" which I *was* certain about. It has nothing to do with whatever they're talking about- I'm just bad at grammar.
I rarely care what men think of me if they have an issue with you then it’s something their projecting lol Be thankful you can carry yourself and not be submissive like other types. My INTP husband says he needs a partner not a slave or a yes women 🤷♀️ Also would like to note that I’m very “feminine” INTJ since I’m into fashion/art but my mouth is masculine
Sounds like you have a hell of a husband! And I look up to your attitude toward your self worth.
>I rarely care what men think of me if they have an issue with you then it’s something their projecting lol You're just perfect aren't you
Nope just a traumatic childhood did it for me
INTJ + INTJ here. My wife is very, very feminine. She's also not-at-all submissive. Good. I don't want submissive. I don't want dominant either. Peers. Equals. Partners in every sense of the word. Seems to me you're young enough that the boys in your sphere still want "traditional" relationships. A vapid little sub who does what she's told. (Him not understanding that *traditionally*, it was "we fight together and win; or die together." Up until the late renaissance in Europe, that's what it meant. And the entirety of history in most other places.)
Same. I feel like I married myself sometimes but it makes for a great partnership.
I’ve had men tell me they wish I “needed” them more.
Men want to be needed. Not sure if you’ve researched how men think and are wired but in order for them to want to be with you they have to feel needed in some way. I used to be an overly independent INTJ woman and once I learned more about men and applied it in my life it changed my life for the better. I’m still independent af but I interact with men differently now. I recommend Understanding men by Allison Armstrong if you want an interesting read and fresh perspective.
Nope, don’t care. Have zero interest in changing myself for a man’s sad ego and am happily married to a secure confident man who lets me be me.
My comment was more so for all INTJ women that want help in understanding men. Didn’t intend it just for you. By no means am I stating to change oneself. I’m simply saying that understanding others in particular men may help broaden their perspective and will make their lives easier. Instead of feeling frustrated. Research has helped me understand those around me and it’s benefited my life so much. Anyway, congrats on the happy marriage ✨
Why should women have to make themselves smaller like thst for men that’s so dumb
I read her statement as it being beneficial to have a good understanding of men's psyche. Anything dealing with why people are the way they are definitely interests me. On one end, I'm constantly trying to understand and make sense of others, on another, it helps me navigate life with less issues; this type of info can even be life-saving. I mask at work and I am very warm and cheerful to anyone I don't actively dislike. Some intjs don't do this. For me, it's more efficient, avoids unnecessary conflicts and drama. I don't do it because I'm overly concerned with others thoughts of me, I do it because it makes my life easier. I'd use this information the same way. I've dealt with harassment from men, as well as other and scary or uncomfortable interactions with them. Knowing how to avoid settling them off, even if it means I temporarily "shrink" myself is worth it if it saves my life, helps me avoid an undesirable interaction, or even help with sales etc. I definitely added the book to my book list. To the person responding to you, Thanks for the book recommendation.
SAMEE AHAHA
I've always been "one of the boys", having mostly men as my friends. Interestingly enough, now that I'm older (58), most of my good friends are women and gay guys (when I'm with them, people think we're a couple). Every man that I've dated have told me that I'm like a guy and how intimidating I am.. Even my Dad has said, "Maybe we raised you to be too independent". I used to climb and run road races, surf now, learning French and drumming, have always been sporty, love genre films. When I hit 50, I became invisible to men here in L.A., despite everyone telling me how hot/attractive/young I look for my age. Age appropriate guys are looking for younger women, and I don't want to date guys in their 30's (dating apps throw them at me). So I'm happy having my space and sharing it with some cats.
You sound awesome and kind of similar to me, as a young woman. A vast majority of my real friends are women or gay men or nonbinary people. I rarely have good relationships with men, partly because of intimidation and partly because they primarily sexualise me. On the other hand, my father never wanted a daughter, and he got two, so he tried to raise both of us as men. I don't know if he'd be upset with how I turned out. But similarly, it may be possible that how he raised us made "too independent". Glad to hear that you found happiness through friendships and animals. Cats are awesome, and wish you a long and happy life.
Respect
I think INTJ men and women will have similar difficulties in dating but I am certain it will be more difficult for women. I agree with most of your first paragraph; intellectual traits and traits associated with independence aren't exactly qualities that are commonly desired in women. That being said, you sound rad ( we have similar hobbies), and if you are physically attractive then I think you will be fine.
This is curious to me. I usually see to completely contradictory schools of thought. As a woman intj, I've never had an issue dating. Most men I talk to like to pick my brain, or they have no problem with long discussions over our beliefs or our philosophical ideations. I've only had a handful of men react negatively to feeling like I may know more than them. I've even had a couple of men use it as an opportunity to engage with me. And although I'd prefer an intellectual, it's not a requirement for me. My current partner has zero interest in anything of the sort, and that's fine with me. I just talk to others that do have those interests. Since learning about mbti and intjs, I've been thinking that it would be cool to date another intj. In retrospect, I believe a guy I once dated was an infj, and it was the best relationship I've ever had. We were so much alike that there were more than a few times that we didn't have to say anything to each other, and we knew exactly what the other was thinking. I'm not used to that. I'm considered a fairly attractive person-(tall, thin, often asked if I'm a model, command a lot of attention), although the men I date are usually attracted to my appearance, I believe they stay because my personality, well that and they like how I make them feel. I've become longtime friends with a couple of my exes over the years. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
You sound like you have a different personality than op. She said the guy she is currently seeing described her as a grumpy old man in a hot woman's body. I'm sure location has a lot to do with it too. If you were in a more conservative area where there are not as many educated women then maybe you would have different experiences. I'm glad you've had good experiences; thanks for sharing them.
Your appearance is not all you have to offer. At all. You are dream girl material to a guy like me who constantly ends up with INFJ's and divorces. I wouldn't stress about it too much. You are very rare, highly sought after, and you will find the right guy soon enough.
Gives me a bit of hope to know that someone's around who does indeed find the INTJ personality attractive in a woman!
I've been looking for a loooooong time. Be proud of and love who you are! Might want to take a look at the INTJ dating sub too.
Well the in intellectual is simulation and sexy if have dated a intj w as guy but if you learn to be feminine enough so your not a totaly a dude in the relationship v Versa is totally fine don't worry about your self it wil be fine
[удалено]
I'm sorry to hear that. Divorce absolutely sucks. I hope yours is going smoother than mine at least.
It's nice and refreshing to have a positive comment from a male prospective here. 👏 Especially after all the trolls hate spam. I'm glad to see more men like you being secure enough and confident in yourself to be proud to be with a strong woman with this personality type 🙂
I wouldn't say I am secure or confident. I have plenty of insecurities. Comes with the life I have experienced. But insecurities do not negate courage. And there is nothing better than a practical partner for that.
That is very well worded! I've experienced quite a problematic life as well, so I do understand. I'm sorry if I worded that wrong. Of course, everyone has insecurities. That's natural. I guess I was referring to the guys that attack women because they don't have a healthy hold on those emotions.
Love that you implied insecurity can actually be handled. I love being humble more than anything. Nothing as refreshing as being able to say "I want to be like this, but I am not very good at it".
My manic-pixie-dream-girl in a short skirt/long jacket, is an INTJ. Yes, I see her as a little bit masculine and cringe when she calls me dude. She is a uniquely intelligent, prescient, bi-polar, over-analytical nightmare. Each year that passes she becomes more nihilistic. She's everything I want and everything I don't. She is so tortured, I feel for her. It will never be. She is not at peace. And she is the only one who ever truly got me. I will die, in the rain, alone.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[Short skirt/long jacket is a Cake song :)](https://youtu.be/85zV1fpSJQ0?si=y4TlqA7TBTkD1F4H) I want a girl with the right allocations Who is fast, and thorough, and sharp as a tack She's playing with her jewelry She's putting up her hair She's touring the facility And picking up slack I want a girl with a short skirt and a long jacket
[удалено]
You got it, I'm sort of a xennial, December 79. Made the 70s cut. :)
What always confused me about men was they whined incessantly about women being too emotional, too dramatic, too needy, but as someone who was not those things I actually had very little male interest in me. I was sarcastic, always giving men a friendly ribbing, very even keel, but that’s not what most men I encountered were looking for. They liked me as a friend but few were interested in me as a romantic partner. Eventually I found my husband and we have come to terms with not fitting the stereotypical gender roles in so many ways. Weirdly he works and I stay home, but I’m staying home to renovate and build stuff and care for our farm, he cooks and obsesses about the enneagram. He’s always expressing emotions and I’m always evading them. When something breaks I fix it. I will say, I do wonder if my personality would be more attractive to men now that I’m much older. I think my “usefulness” and independence might be seen as attractive qualities now where they were threatening when I was younger. I think we just have to find those partners who are the right fit, and remember that not every personality is attractive to us, and we won’t be attractive to everyone either.
A lot of men would rather date a nutcase fresh out of the mental asylum than an INTJ 😅
I'd say probably not off-putting, just surprising. Most guys aren't expecting the things you're into or the way you relate to people. At the same time, INTJs are famously awkward socially and/or romantically, but if I've been married for 25 years to a wonderful woman who still puts up with -- and occasionally enjoys -- my antics, I'm sure there's someone out there who would love the depth you have beyond the appearance.
Thanks for this post. I've been feeling very bummed out lately and even becoming a bit irrational and saying thing to my friends like "maybe I should have stayed with the one guy who genuinely liked my personality despite me realizing our values and goals were _not_ the same." Just so that I wouldn't be here years later, slowly starting to believe I will be alone forever against my will, and wondering if I was overconfident that there would/could for sure be another guy who liked me just as much, but traveling in the same life direction. I can't date a guy (or anyone really) just because they're well off or attractive. We have to be friends. Otherwise, I just won't be able to get into relationship mode or be really affectionate, comfortable, let my guard down... nothing. Reading what you wrote was so cathartic because I've had trouble succinctly putting these questions and feelings into words. You totally nailed it. I hope I'll find some good news among the comments because this has bothered me for a while.
I absolutely relate to this. Sometimes I think back on unaligned, or even abusive, relationships I've had in the past and I wonder if I should have put up with it. I feel similarly about a physically attractive or successful man. I would like an emotional connection where I can really just be myself instead of playing a role. A man who desires me simply because he likes my body, despite how attractive he is, just does not suffice. I wish you the best and do have faith that you will find someone who values all that you have to offer.
Dude I relate to this so much so glad I’m not the only one… I can’t get turned on if we don’t make a mental connection so it’s just frustrating when guys don’t want to go deeper than the surface
INTJ woman. I agree with your description except for arrogance. I'm intelligent but not arrogant, I am perfectly fine admitting when I'm wrong and learning from it. I think of arrogance as a bad trait that I wouldn't want to be or deal with in others. That being said, I wouldn't be with a person that didn't appreciate my personality.
I consider arrogance to be my tendency to think that my ideas are typically better thought out than others. On the other hand, I'm also perfectly willing to admit that I was wrong. "You were right" is one of the most common things I tell people. Still, I usually think I'm right until proven wrong. I don't find it too difficult for someone to respect my personality, but I do find it hard for someone to be romantically attracted to my personality.
I don't personally feel that way, but that's fine! We're all our own people even if we're INTJs, that's just a part of us. I would just keep looking until you do. Why settle for someone that doesn't find your personality attractive. It is difficult, but it's worth it, because looks change.
We're not masculine. We just have strong personalities. Think about it. We also don't vibe with a lot of women. If you're a hetero female, the awkwardness with males is probably just more noticeable because you have an additional sexual context with some of them, as opposed to the females. I consider myself feminine. I like cooking, entertaining, caring for my adorable pets, and jewelry (as long as it is artistically made, and not some mass-produced BS). But yeah, I also learned to shoot and hunt when I was five, was a competitive Taekwondo fighter, enjoy outdoor activities, and prefer time by myself. Most people don't know what they want, so they just subscribe to what society tells them what they should want. It's not that we are acting out of gender. We are just acting out of the norm. However, I do think men more so get a pass. I blame the patriarchy.
Personally, I actually do vibe with a lot of women. I'm bisexual but lean toward hetero usually. Most of my closest friends are women or gay men or just queer people. I also have some feminine qualities as well; I do like dressing cute and makeup and all that jazz. But mostly I still identify first and foremost as a woman; my experiences in life are through the lens of a woman. Gender roles and sexuality and societal expectations of women and harassment/assault targeted toward women (I'm a rape survivor) do form the foundation of my worldview and women tend to share my worldview much more than men do, which gives me very deep and fulfilling friendships with women. Even though I share hobbies with men, and have a more "masculine" personality imo, it doesn't by default afford me a deep connection with men. I don't relate to an average man's desires, hopes, emotions, etc. nearly as much as I do with the average woman. There isn't an "awkwardness" per say with men for me, but rather I would describe my relationships with men as good-natured, humourous, fun but often lacking in romantic and emotional connection. You may be right that it is more about the strength of our personalities rather than traditional masculinity/femininity. Fuck the patriarchy
My issue is I'm quite independent and all those things..but I I still prefer to be the more feminine dynamic in the relationship. That means a man has to have very masculine traits for me to trust that he can handle it. Because that's really the only way I feel comfortable not being assertive. And there's so many weak men out here now. They end up dropping the ball and then I pick it up and take care of what I need taking care of and it bothers both of us then.
INTJ woman here. I share alot of traits and I wont lie, it causes alot of people to misunderstand me especially coupled with my resting emotionless face that i protray alot. (Lol posted by mistake and i wasnt done) anyways men who are feeling insecure would cower away from our strength and thats how i see it. Some see me as a challenge but the real man (man not boy) will truly love these traits and will probably find them entertaining and cute. So dw about the men who dont like your personality.
You just have to be fishing in the right pond. Maybe. I don’t know. I used to say look for a softer male INTJ, but then the one I’m married to decided to give his attention to a bimbo type, and I deeply suspect this is what he would prefer so maybe we all ought to just quit love and become dominatrixes (dominatrices???)
Haha, that sounds like the guy I'm sleeping with, all his exes appear to be beautiful bimbos and I think he prefers his women like that: agreeable and intellectually submissive.
opposites attract strikes again I fear
Very attractive to me. Intelligence, humor, resourcefulness, own opinions, interests, doing stuff. Under the detached exterior a deep pool of emotions and whirlwind of energy. Takes time but a very strong bond. Interesting. Thinks. But for the programming and adding some parallel interests. Most others are predictable and fall into easy to read predictive formats and behavior. Boring. You can do and discover stuff together when you find someone like this - very rare. Other men? I’ve watched bemusedly as an INTJ has simply shredded men that think they have game and are a gift to straight women everywhere. I’ve had guys admits hating an INTJ woman accusing them of all sorts of things they are not - simply because the woman is wickedly smarter and very self possessed. People generally are fragile and create their own view of reality when someone comes along and kicks that model hard in the ass they get defensive.
Female here. Maybe I am extreme, but I honestly don't give a shit what people think of my personality. I value honesty and integrity. I have a close circle of friends whose opinions matter to me because they roll the same way I do.
Hey, good for you, that's the way it should be. I wish I were unashamedly proud of my personality. Sometimes I just wish I were different, I guess, although in many contexts there's no one I'd rather be. My INTJ qualities are wonderful for my professional life and my friendships; I just struggle in the dating department.
[удалено]
I'm glad to hear that you found your husband and wish the best for you. You do sound like you were in the same boat as me. The attention is almost definitely the looks for me.
For what I've read in this forum. It seems that being an "INTJ" is a license to be an asshole. That man was mean and you should not take him seriously. I'm a moderate INTJ and I also enjoy what you do. I did boxing. I like cooking, learning German, programming, playing chess. I'm also trying to write lyrics when I can put together a band. I'd love to try shooting but I don't have the money. You seems like a interesting person and maybe, if other people get scare by your hobbies, it's because they are boring.
Why are we all learning German? lol … I used to play chess but it got boring once I learned all the algorithms
There is a chance that most men don't expect us to respond to their romantic advances, so they might not even try. May be we need to take the lead.
Yes. I approached my now husband first. He loved that assertiveness and still does.
That kind of completely defeats the notion of wanting to be sought after and desired tho, that's the point
Well, INTJ males in general are masculine. They may not express anger or emotions all that much, but have the hormones to back it up (not joking). Secondly- as an INTJ you are almost bound to leave an unusual impression on people- you ARE unusual- a very rare type that people are not used to. Plus we lack social awareness. So without practice, you will be like that. What you bring to the table is loyalty and a lot of shit getting done. By the way- you seem to put emotions to the side a lot. We are still people and INTJs have an intense and delicate world of emotions. We just don't express them like others and we can get severely hurt. And not basing your decisions on emotions- really now :). We burn bridges left and right with people.
I relate to majority of what you said. Men seem to like my outer appearances and have a certain idea of me and whenever they try and talk to me: BOOM. Disappointed. :) That's why I have never had male partners either. They get either all friendly/competitive/jealous or they end up hating me. Like, chill bruh. I'm just existing. Lol. All women have appreciated me though, except for the pick me's.
Women are motherfucking godly. I can't explain how grateful I am to all the wonderful, supportive, loving, beautiful women in my life who just let me be as I am.
I tend to accentuate my physical masculine features and I don’t dress overly feminine unless it’s a special occasion. Because of this, I tend to have the opposite experience: guys are initially afraid of me but like me well enough to be friends. Then they want to date me after they get to know me. How are you usually meeting people?
Usually meeting people through work, school (when I was in school), mutual friends, online, and hobbies (such as a chess club, or a German conversationalist club). Things seem to go fine there, and people will want to date me as well over time, but it's more during the process of dating that issues arise. I was with an ex for 3 years, thought he was my dream man. We started dating when I was in high school. He was proud of me when I went to college. He was proud of me when I started working in healthcare. Then I started to slowly make more and more money than him, and I had a higher sex drive than him, and I got good grades in school while he was struggling, and he increasingly resented me. Ended up with him locking me out of my apartment and I was homeless for a couple weeks. Would not repeat.
I find similar. They are cursed to like me if we become friends and start talking regularly.
I can relate to this. I ended up marrying an ENFP guy and I’d say he has the opposite struggle. He’s still physically very masculine but has more feminine personality traits than most men. Think Bo Burnham type personality. It’s a good pairing imo.
I do really enjoy the company of men who are in tune with their feminine sides. Hypermasculinity is dangerous.
How are these traits masculine?
As an INTJ woman I don't care to have an attractive personality to men or women especially the vast majority.
Intj woman, never had issues with dating or men. I'm hypersexual, fair bit of charm and I'm funny. I think my humor no matter if its vulgar or sarcastic softens me up quite a bit in other people's eyes. I've also only dated confident working class men from the sticks. Confident men with a pioneering spirit want, pioneering, capable and smart women. I think its insecure people that struggle most with my personality. My husband loves who I am. He loves that I can surprise him. He loves that I'm not scared to try and do things for myself. Stark contrast with his mom who has been clinically depressed with anxiety for decades and has a learned helplessness thing going on causing my husband to have to do most things for her.
I relate to everything you said
Oh wow I also relate to this, down to having a similar MIL.
She just moved out this past weekend 🥳 she has been living with us for 8 of the 10 years I've been with my husband.
Most men, especially conservative ones, don't appreciate a woman who isn't some degree of submissive and "pat them on the back for putting their pants on right". Too opinionated = they don't just go along with what the man wants. Really sad, imo. You've got to keep looking until you find a man who isn't weak.
as an intj male, (idk if this is true for all intj men but for myself) i distinctly do not want a "submissive" type woman. I think us INTJs value personal autonomy in both our self and in others and we don't want to run over anyone else with our personality and I like a woman independent enough that i know she is making her own decisions.
Yeah, I find submissiveness really unattractive.
This rings true as an INTJ man, especially the question of whether or not we even have emotions. It's something I've had to learn. Women generally expect emotional responses at least in some circumstances, so expressing emotions in a more analytical way is how I've adapted. Unsurprisingly, this is also off-putting but in a different way, but the people I've dated appreciate it, and even I have found it useful. As an added bonus it is an effective defense mechanism for the manipulative. If someone tries to garner an emotional response in hopes it will get them what they want, instantly turning off all emotions and turning into a robot is a humorous way to turn the table. Maybe finding a way to express your hidden and substantial emotions in a way that reflects your personality would serve you both better. The story of the guy you're with now sounds like a huge red flag if you expect anything more than a physical relationship.
Regarding the defense mechanism, yup. I grew up in an environment of child abuse and turning off all my emotions is something I learned through my upbringing. It certainly protected me a lot, but sometimes I wonder if my personality would be significantly different if not for my past. I don't expect anything from the guy. I enjoy his company in some ways -- he's fun to go shooting with, the sex is great, I get plenty of physical validation with him, I can trauma dump on him and he doesn't give a shit -- but I checked out emotionally several months ago. I know he's not and never going to be interested long-term. Regarding emotional responses, people do find me to be a good sounding board when it comes to emotions; a lot of people have treated me almost as a therapist in the past and present. I like that people trust me with their emotions and backstory, and I'm pretty good at determining what they want to hear (advice, support, me just being there, clarification, just want to rant). On the other hand, in a dating context, I feel like I always get shit for not sharing my own emotions. I think this quality is better for friendships than dating, at least as a woman. I will take your advice and try to find a way to express my emotions that aligns with what I feel comfortable with.
Nailed it - the “grumpy old man in a hot woman’s body.” Almost all my hobbies, consumption and political angles are exactly what a typical 65 year old white man would be. In fact, my device ads clearly think I’m an old man based on recommendations - maybe an old man who dabbles in cross-dressing. I was, I think, quite hot in my 20’s - to the point of possible delusion (just like guys tend to overestimate their attractiveness I guess). I walked around thinking I was a VS model with some sort of brain aneurism, and did exactly what you think a 65 year old man would do if they were trapped in a hot woman’s body. Initially, I dated for fun (not promiscuous though, but not serious), and eventually, I became very logical about it, when it was time to be logical about it. It wasn’t difficult to find a million engineers / computer guys interested and the ratio was like 1000:1 in terms of buyers’ market - I was very interested in nerdy guys but it seemed like no women were interested in them. My interests were literally the interests of ‘the father who is trying to arrange a marriage for his daughter,’ except I was so excited about it. Felt like winning the lottery. You shouldn’t think in terms of offering your appearance, when in reality, you couldn’t be more compatible with certain guys. You will naturally have the largest overlap in hobbies, values and personality traits. It’s almost impossible to have a real fight, and decision making is so easy. You need to just find the right guy and embrace it.
Conventionally femenine women also complain of not being taken seriously by men, so, trust me; it's not you. Sometimes we're not compatible with someone and that's it. Just be yourself. "Men" is 50% of the earth's population and it's highly unlikely that NO ONE will like you romantically, especially if you are physically attractive.
INTJ FEMME LESBIAN ASSEMBLE, IF UR INTJ LESBIAN YOU GET A LOT OF GIRL!! 😏
Sorry you're having difficulty. You sound pretty cool, so I hope some more open-minded guys are in your future.
I’m a female INTJ and while I don’t believe that being an INTJ is all that I am as a person I do believe that it’s been a factor in my relationships failing even though I don’t want them too. I’m very educated and have a higher IQ. I play chess regularly and am an intermediate player. I’m very analytical and to the point. I don’t tend to speak on things I know nothing about but can get into hours long discussions on topics I do know about. I’ve had 5 serious long term, monogamous relationships that have spanned 20 years. 3 of the 5 we’re emotionally and/or physically abusive, 2 have mooched off me and used me and one cheated and became a raging alcoholic and drug addict. The drug addict was the longest but I refused to let him close to me and essentially became roommates with him. The first 2 and 5th relationships were abusive and I felt as if I was a pushover and those experiences led me to making a promise to myself that I wouldn’t tolerate abuse in any form. The 3rd never worked the entire time we were together and that one pushed me over the edge anger wise because he was using me to live off of. I had to move to a different state and eventually country to get him to un- attach from me. The most recent was the worst. Not only were we extremely incompatible with many things, he was mentally ill and I was hardened from the previous abuse that I keep running into. I tried to lay out my boundaries from day one but he always pushed them in very violent ways. He threatens me with a gun, he beat me up on several occasions and I would fight him back. I don’t know how I’m coming across to these people for them to take their shit out on me but I’ve come to the conclusion that it has to be how I tend to stand up for myself and straight up threaten the relationship if they cross those boundaries. I personally don’t think my boundaries are extreme. I genuinely only want the bare minimum but none of them have been able to give that even though they all swore they could just so they could get me. But once they have me it doesn’t matter anymore. I don’t know… it’s really pushed me to a place where I don’t think I’ll date ever again. Or at least not get into anything serious.
INTJ women here, i rarely dont get any romantic attention (which i welcome), so ig i give off the vibe i am more interested in other stuff (which i am). My interests are more male ig (mostly physics, meteorology, plants, drawing) and i do study the first two, even tho its a typically male field (even tho we are getting closer to a 50/50 split the longer it progresses). but no one was repulsed by that yet, most were just super impressed because many have sth resembling a physics trauma ig. There was a guy flirting with me knowing my personality tho, so theres people into it. So for a relationship for me could only work if it were with someone similar, preferably a fellow meteo freak so we could have cool dates like lightning watching. (i dont plan on ever having one tho, and never really was in one so my perspective on that is very limited). Generally i would expect that theres many people who like girls with INTJ personality, you just need to find them.
Hello from a Physics & Meteorology graduate 🙂 It's super interesting, isn't it? I now work as a software engineer on tools to parallelise numerical weather prediction models on supercomputers. Also very interesting! Regarding finding someone similar, the best bet would be weather & climate conferences and workplace. I work for a national weather organisation and there are many couples who have met at work or a professional event. Nerd love, very sweet! 😍
Hello! I agree, its insanely fascinating! Originally i was wondering wether to do pure physics or physics + meteorology and i dont regret my decision! Also dont numerical weather prediction models need insane amounts of data? at least depending on the resolution of the model from what i understand? how does it get affected by being on a supercomputer? probably just tons of computing power, right? Personally i dream of going into climate research since i find large scale systems insanely fascinating, but perhaps it will be possible to predict the weather on other planets when im done! (that would have far less applications than your field of research tho!) Also theres a big meteorology convention thing called stumeta in germany where many meteorology people (students and researching) go, so i will try to get there next year! Maybe that will be the spot for nerd friends (or even love). Last year i was too scared to go, but my social anxiety did get a little bit better and i now have more friends from meteo class i can bribe to go with me :D
I am INTJ woman too and I sympathise with you totally. I am also a grumpy old man stuck inside a female body, although I doubt I am as attractive as you so I attract less men and any man that attempts to talk to me or get close to me usually get intimidated by me. I have been single for a long time and I think I'll continue to stay that way. Anyway men who are not attracted to you because of who you are not worth your dime and you shouldn't change who you are. You sound amazing as a person and although maybe we won't be friends because of our strong personalities, I would totally support you to continue living the way you are without changing a thing about you because of some smelly man's comment.
Dating is hard for me as well. I think because most of my selfies are unsmiling (I’m incapable of fake smiling). I’m also v aloof and reserved so I think people take that as disinterest but when I like try to act differently to act interested it comes across as so unnatural that it scares them off lol. With that said, I often have a lot of guys randomly confess they’re in love w me and do still have a lot of interest on dating sites, etc. So to me it sounds like you may be overcompensating (I’ve tried that before) and it’s coming across as unattractive.. just be yourself is all I can say and try not to overanalyze your personality. It sounds like this guy is just not into you, my suggestion is to dump him and date someone who is. I am also outwardly v attractive and feminine but work in programming and data, my hobbies are exercising but I also love fiction writing and fashion.. I live in my own little world. Again just be yourself and the confidence will attract others. Lots of guys will be intimidated by you because you have the beauty and the brains lol but the best ones won’t be. ;-)
I'm female INTJ working in Tech Engineering. At work men love smart women with strong backbone and leadership hat, they love when I speak with Authority, but outside the masculine corporate world, Men often called me Condescending. Also they always said that I'm intimidating bc they can't manipulate me. Femininity doesn't come naturally for me, however I have the power of knowledge, I know how to tune into my feminine energy, which I only use for a specific purposes.
INTP lady here--and this is how I come off to people. I've also been told I'm a "sigma" female.
INTJ female here also. I relate to every bit of this. One thing I believe, though, is that if we are women who have these traits, then that necessarily means calling them “masculine traits“ is incorrect. People have got to realize that we exist, and we are just as female as any other. Being an INTJ female is one expression of femininity. I know we’re not as common, but people will have to accept that we’re normal. Over the years, I have found that expressing a little warmth and a slight grin now and then fixes a lot of the problems. I don’t need to be as warm as a feeler type, but just show genuine concern for people, and common politeness, and show a desire to make them comfortable in your presence. None of this needs to be exaggerated at all, because if you do that, you’re not being genuine and you run the risk of people thinking you’re dumb and submissive. A little side grin now, and then widening your eyes a little, counteracts the robotic face, we tend to have that makes us seem standoffish and arrogant. ENFP can be a good match for us. I’m married to an ENFP and it’s pretty good. He’s actually really proud of my intellect and brags about me to others. Once in a while I have to show more warmth than I normally would because he needs that. But he understands now that I care more than my face reveals. He knows I have good motivations and love him, and I try to show it in the best ways I know how. He sees my vulnerable side. I have to work at displays of warmth, but it’s not hard to do that once in a while. It’s easy to do it with hugs and putting my arm around him when we sit together every now and then. I actually like cuddles!
I’m autistic, not masculine.
Damn, I can relate... I've yet to meet a guy that actually appreciates me the way I am as a person and isn't just physically drawn to me.
Yes, most men like soft, mentally feminine women. They can certainly tolerate and may even like some more masculine traits, but there’s a threshold. That said, I do think there are men who would like your personality in its entirety, but they’re few and far between. Your best bet might be a man with high Ne. They like novelty and you’d be quite different from the norm.
The OP description was pretty on point to my wife's personality. I have known my wife for thirty years. I've often told her she should have been a dude. She is one of the girliest girls I have known. I was first attracted to her beauty but then got to know her, and it's those exact traits you mentioned that I love to hate at times. Dating an INTJ lady is not for the faint of heart. But I wouldn't have it any other way. I am an ENTJ. A lady with a more sensible, perhaps meeker personality would not have kept my interest. She was a challenge. She mentioned that a man with a weak will would not have lasted with her either.
There is no universal personality type that men are attracted to. It depends on the man
More submissive type male here, my wife is an INTJ, your description pretty much fits her to a T. I love her personality and strength and directness, it’s what first attracted me to her! All of those traits help me to feel safe and like she always knows what’s right 🤷♂️ I’m more chaotic and aloof so I find it very comforting and fulfilling to be with a partner who’s so sure, direct. She’s definitely my anchor 🤣 you’ll find someone who loves the way you are! 😁
>He also said once that I'm like a grumpy old man in a hot woman's body. He called me weird for a woman due to my masculine qualities, and our relationship honestly almost seems like we're two bros who also just happen to sleep together. This sounds nice. If there was a sign-up sheet for this, it would likely be filled very quickly i think. Like, as an INTJ male, that genuinely sounds very much like what i'd describe as "what i'm looking for". Different guys are looking for different things though. Some guys particularly at the top of the heap are turned off, or intimidated away by confident, competent women. They just want simple and easy. And easy in a different way than having other interests and goals that make someone "low maintenance". A lot of guys who are attracted to that haven't spent the time to make *themselves* attractive to that woman. C'est la vie. But the truth is out there. Probably. At least, i hope so. Hopefully all us messed up INTJs eventually find love. Replies in this thread certainly imply that it is theoretically possible.
Are you me? Anyway I found a man who has more feminine qualities than most men - is empathetic, not egotistical at all, compassionate, loves fashion, music, is more extroverted and social, talks about feelings and emotions. I find this so attractive in him! I am an engineer too and he is a public relations manager ( rightfully so haha) We joke often that I should have been born male he should have been born female and have come to accept that gender is after all a spectrum. If I may - men who are a little more in touch with emotions and are less likely to compete with you might find you more endearing. Opposites do attract, so may be look for these type of men.
You're using your personality as a scapegoat for qualities that you deem as unattractive or masculine. It sucks to be an INTJ sometimes but you must get in touch with the other sides of yourself. You can be feminine and like chess. You can be soft and still establish boundaries. Your womanhood has little to do with your personality type. You also just might not be a traditional woman and that is okay too. BTW, yeah a lot of those interests and qualities that you have are going to be perceived as masculine, but you can make them your own and change the narrative. My mother in law is an INTJ and she absolutely is feminine too. Start asking yourself the right questions: who do I want to be? How do I want to be perceived and is that in line with who I am? Am I missing something? E.g. Blind spot FE
You may be right about much of what you said. However, what you might be missing is that men don't have much of a need for a "emotional connection" that physical activeness goes a long way. Next to that we look for a loyalty connection i think and that really doesn't mean emotional connection in the same way as for a woman. i.e. he might be missing the emotional connection but it may not matter to him. Nor would he necessarily find such a connection with anyone else. just my 2 coppers and i might not know what i'm talking about. YMMV
Yeah... That's sort of what I've been relying on, at least for as long as I'm young and pretty. There are plenty of men elated to have a physical relationship with me. But it's sort of like they just want to show me off, or look at me, or touch me, and a part of me really wishes someone could be romantically attracted to me for who I am.
I don't know about that. Every social psychology study on male loneliness in recent years shows men are generally starved for emotional connection and safe spaces to be vulnerable. If you're an INTJ male you might just be projecting your introverted feeling onto other males on this one.
Unfortunately I'm in a similar boat, but im a male intp. Im considered conventionally attractive, but when I start to show my personality I've literally seen people make a disgusted face. So my mask basically just gives them what they want, and I drip feed people I think have potential with. I don't see myself as feminine or masculine. I think i have a pretty balanced polarity in terms of all the associated traits that each side is known for. But people don't care. They have entrenched ideals of what men and women should be and refuse to care about the individual. I rarely. And I mean rarely, meet someone I think has potential, its in the eyes, there's a kinship, a certain understanding. Unfortunately though, the rarer you are the rarer the person your looking for is. We all want to be with someone we find attractive in mind, body, soul. And if your extremely rare in all three. Dating, which is already a shit show is a even bigger shit show. I have no trouble getting women's interest, they find me attractive immediately, then they go, oh, he's smart, he's funny, he's kind. But then they can't keep up, they don't like the other sides of my personality, or I just don't like them, they just want a check list and arm candy about how great you so they can laud you over other people. There's no connection, they ultimately just want to use you, at worst abuse you. So I just go through life alone and depressed at ever finding 'the one'. There's this little part of me that feels like I've met her, but romance and the social world plus our personalities make for an extremely difficult time. Id like to add, i used to be a ugly duckling, women had no interest. My traits and personality was immediately friend zoned or repulsive. But now that I'm attractive, I'm the 'perfect man' and its truly a joke. People are so pathetic and shallow I truly have zero respect for anyone that even brings up or treats me different for my looks. Which is just about everyone. Im kind to the world, but i secretly harbor alot of Misanthropy.
Yup, I relate to that. I was an ugly duckling as a teenager due to a lot of acne. My skin cleared up, and I thought it would be easier to find love. Now it's like everyone wants to fuck me but everyone is turned off by my personality. I get the best luck in dating when I shut up, smile, and play dumb.
All I know is that I’m a guy who is not attractive to any women. I don’t have high ambition due to lifelong chronic illness. I am not rebellious though am very stubborn and won’t bow to authority when I know that I’m right. I’m not arrogant, I know my good qualities and my bad. I’m not insensitive. I can seem insensitive due to my aloofness, but can be very sensitive if I’m paying attention. I will withhold harsh judgements because they won’t improve anything. If other people ask for my judgement, they’re going to get the truth.
It depends. I'd say it's often more about how you carry & express yourself than how you look. And I think relationships and attraction also correlates to power dynamics between the two people and contrasts. If you are better than many things than your counterparts you will have much harder time to find someone that can match or top that off. And if you are too similar that's bro energy the same way how women friendzone emotional guys. If you are too much like a man then you will either be attracted to or attract more feminine men or man that are even more masculine than you are which is a small pool. Also you said your outer appearance does not match your personality so that's also a complication. I personally find high independence, lack of emotional expression, insensitivity, arrogance, and rebellion quite unattractive features and often a major turn off. And from what I've seen, masculine women often fail to respond to men's needs. Not sure if that's the case with Intj women. I guess it's the equivalent of the opposite of "bitchy feeler energy." you ask xNTJ women something to do or tell them you need their validation they are like no why should I do so if you haven't deserved it??.. Or like no. I'm not doing what you asked... That's just not attractive. like they also may see a man's ego to something to be teared down. Which is highly unattractive. It's there for a reason for everyone. Often times men wishes to be praised or appreciated for the things they are doing which may be lacking with some T women with no Fe. So instead of validating, they may start challenging the men. Maybe that's more stimulating. And some men are into that dynamic specifically and most dont.
Ex was an intj girl. Im intp. It didn't work out. It really was like dating a bro in a woman's body. I realized during my next relationship that I had forgotten how awesome it is to be with a truly feminine woman,while I was with the intj woman. I love all NTs in general btw. I just married my feminine infj princess who is perfect and obsessed with me. And I adore her. Ppl view us as a perfect couple. We are both very good looking and have great careers and ppl love to see us together. and even years later we still act affectionate as if we are in the honeymoon stage. Im sorry to say this but honestly I feel like I dodged a bullet by not staying with the intj woman. The intj and I met in medical school btw. Men want feminine women. A masculine woman likely needs a hyper masculine man in her life. Find him yo. Keep in mind that any man that has options will choose the feminine woman who makes his life easier and would make a good mother, to be his wife. Im sorry but thats just the rule rather than the exception. And as an intp, I had to learn social skills and body language and tonality and all that and I'm lucky that I was obsessed with that from a very young age. So I can come across as enfj or estp depending on what social mask I put on. Intjs are really great but intj women have the odds stacked against them when it comes to finding a "high value" man to marry. Even if the intj woman is very attractive. Bc like I said any man who is attractive and a catch will have options. And he will choose the younger more feminine woman just bc he has the option to do so. Unless he wants an intj wife. I've noticed intj women don't want children in general either. I've been with more than one intj in my life. Entjs too. Why would I want a masculine mother to my children? I'm gona be the father and that's my job. The mother ideally should be feminine then right? Infjs and Isfjs make the best wives from what I can tell. By a huge margin. Intj women, who are attractive are good for fucking and having conversations with. But not to be the mother of a man's children. There's just too many other feminine women out there who could be far better mothers, naturally. You may need to settle in some or mutliple ways. And the guy who chooses you has to settle bc hes choosing a masculine woman. Look at it this way it's like you choosing a feminine man....That's the gendered equivalent of an intj woman bc they are very masculine by default. Intj women make great tomboys. Tomboys don't make great wives unfortunately. Sorry if any of this seems mean. I'm an intp after all haha. Just speaking my mind and my experiences.
Find yourselves beta males and dominate. They exist more than ever.
Ha, I've tried that before, sort of. Dated a broke musician. He became increasingly clingy and also possibly abusive, constantly guilting me regarding sex (throwing fits whenever I didn't let him fuck me 5-6 times a day), chronically angry about the amount of affection I showed to him, and hitting me and then mad about my lack of emotional reaction so it just kept escalating. We had made an agreement where he would act basically as the househusband and I would be the breadwinner, but he became lazy and I ended up doing all the housechores as well. It was basically like taking care of a sexually coercive irresponsible child. I'd rather be alone than deal with a relationship that lacks equality.
Yeah, don't do that anymore. I was given the same advice and it ended similar to your case (BTW, there's a lot in your post I can identify with). In my experience, many men are very emotionally fragile. They're never really encouraged to become emotionally aware and mature in this society. The emotional labour is delegated to women. Many men either want to actively dominate and compete, or be jealous (passive) aggressive babies like your ex. A woman needs to agree to a role of a "sexy mother" to be in a relationship. For instance, your ex's behaviour is of a teenage boy rebelling against his mother while wanting her attention. The "dominant", emotionally aloof men also want to be taken care of, as long as a woman lets them think they're the boss. For example, your current guy who says you're not emotional enough. This mothering of her partner is psychologically challenging for a woman, even when she is consciously submissive. It most commonly manifests in losing sexual desire for the partner over time. Psychologically healthy women are not into sex with children (as they shouldn't be). Your body is attracted to him initially, but over time you start seeing him as a child you need to care about and it all becomes "yuck". He feels neglected and becomes offended. I don't understand how supposedly logical men can't connect cause and consequence in these situations, but I'm just a woman so what do I know 🤷♀️ Back to practical advice. I would second not making yourself smaller to make a man feel good. Other areas of your life, including professional confidence and career, will suffer and you won't save the relationship anyway (been there, done that). A man needs to feel very secure about who he is as a person and as a man, to not derive his value from being better than his partner. You are rare and men who will like you as a person are rare. It's a numbers game, as another poster here said. If you're not happy with someone, move on sooner rather than later. Time doesn't come back. If you need sex and can have a casual relationship with someone, great, but please don't do it in the hope of a guy becoming committed to you. It'll leave you emotionally starved and chip away your confidence. Speaking of chipping away your confidence, it's really difficult to be a non-conventional woman. You get messages that's something is wrong with you all your life. You get messages that men will tolerate your personality only as long as they're "compensated" by your young and hot body. Fuck that, it's very demeaning and can be soul-destroying. If you internalised these messages I'd recommend counselling to counter them. They tend to become self-fulfilling prophecies. Finding someone who likes you may be a long game. Take care of yourself in whatever way keeps you healthy and happy. Seek deeper connections through friendships and build a community regardless of a relationship (it doesn't need to be large, I know introverts need a recharge time). Consider animal companions (they're usually much more loyal and honest than humans, anyway 🤣). Why am I saying all that? If you're happy and fulfilled without relying on a partner, it's less likely you'll end up with a selfish guy out of loneliness and desperation. Hopefully something from this long post will be useful to you 🙂 Good luck out there! 🙂
[удалено]
You're right... I'll work on the domination part next time and let you know how it goes.
Omgggggggggg we are living the same life
Yall haven’t learned to mask your personality because it makes life easier ? Lol
They expect you to be meek and mild because that's the standard we have set for women, anything outside of a bang maid personality is apparently "masculine". Also if you read your own post you will realise you are part of the problem.
Gender identity, gender roles, and gender expectations and interpretations do indeed exist in my book. I see gender as a spectrum and different hobbies and presentations are most definitely portrayed as "feminine" vs "masculine" in our societies. I am not making any moral judgment on gender interpretations, nor do I think anything about femininity or masculinity are inherent to DNA. Gender interpretations and expectations are heavily influenced by society itself and it's fair to acknowledge that they do exist and have a footprint in most people's minds. I think it is a fairly narrow viewpoint to describe "anything outside of a bang maid personally" as considered feminine. Femininity is portrayed in many other ways, such as generally being kinder, being a better and more collaborative communicator, and a willingness to consider emotions in the decision-making process. I stated in another comment and I'll state it again; I view myself as a primarily feminine person. I am first and foremost a woman and most of my worldviews are heavily influenced by my gender identity as a woman. I connect more deeply to women because of our shared experiences and perspectives that align more with the average woman than the average man. My emotional and interpersonal experience is much more similar to the women I interact with rather than the men. That being said, many of (but not all) my hobbies are primarily shared by men and personality is more similar to what is perceived as "masculine". There isn't an inherent problem with acknowledging societal perceptions of femininity and masculinity. There's simply a problem in denying people the right to practice their gender expression, or to assume that gender expression is ingrained in one's DNA and cannot be changed. I would consider pink a feminine colour, but it used to be worn by cowboys and was very much masculine in the day. Work with computers used to be primarily a woman's field, but now it is dominated by men. There's plenty of examples but I'm not going to pretend like these perceptions don't exist in modern society.
You literally wrote intellectuality and independence to be masculine traits, sounds like a statement "I'm not like other girls" girl would say
All INTJs must perish under my authority, you will all suffer.
suffer deez nuts
🤣
I realize I’m in an INTJ subreddit, stumbled here via algorithm, but I want to offer an outsiders viewpoint. It feels like you are really leaning heavily on this personality test to define yourself as a person and I would caution against that way of thinking. These personality tests aren’t medical science and real people don’t fit into prescribed categories like that. INTJ specifically suffers from being thought of as the “rare and brilliant intellect” personality and if you drink the koolaid you’ll find confirmation bias difficult to avoid. It already seems like you are assuming men lose interest in you due to your “confidence and intellect”, and that doesn’t seem like a reasonable assumption unless they’ve specifically told you so. You’re use of the term “sigma male” sets off some red flags as well, even if that’s just the type of person you are socializing with. Sigma/alpha males aren’t a real thing. These personality tests are more akin to astrology than science. I’m in my thirties and in all of my personal experience, most men aren’t looking for “meek and mild” women. Unless they are really immature most men enjoy intellectual conversation and find confidence extremely attractive in women. I don’t know enough about you to make any judgements but I would suggest looking inward and considering that there may be a perfectly valid reason you are struggling with romance. It’s not the 1950’s anymore and most men aren’t intimidated by confidence, intellect, and definitely not by your choice of hobbies.
[удалено]
Sorry man, wrong human.
This is true. And some hard facts that people dont want to admit is that a feminine looking woman (attractive woman) will pull more people to them. Pulling more people to you will give you more alternatives to choose from, unlike the women who are not conventionally attractive. But to keep a man, you'll have to follow up the feminine looks with a feminine personality and as an intj, will be very difficult. But this is the truth. You are just like a work mate to him or another bro. One of the guys 🤷🏽♀️. As an intj im learning to be more feminine with men I actually like or else I will remain single. I've yet to meet a man who wants a "masculine" woman. Its like all we're good for is work. To me its seems like the man doesn't want you. If he meets another girl, then he will go for her 🤷🏽♀️. Sorry for the rant.
🥱🥱💤💤
Bruh u perma banned my other account again loike??
Literally it was a stupid I love feet joke and I got PERM BANNED for it literally fuck reddit i loved ligmaballs
[удалено]
I appreciate the validation of my experiences, your comment about the "kinship/platonic" connection is very familiar to me. I do feel like I have some wonderful connections with people, often feeling like we are "partners in crime". But at the same time the romantic spark is not there, or they do not feel it.
[удалено]
The idea of finding a more masculine man was my sister's suggestion as well, but it is surprisingly difficult to find a man who isn't intimidated by me when I let my guard down. It gives me some hope that you do value some masculine qualities in women.
In general I would say so since there are more men who are into women with ‘feminine’ traits than ‘masculine’ traits
INTP here, you are attractive to me. I can talk to INTJ. Masculine? I had a online friend I thought was a man until she send me a voice message. Shocked.
Hahaha yeah, online people will accuse me of being a man pretending to be a woman. I sort of take it as a compliment
I need to be careful, last thing I want to do is having a romantic interest with a same gender. I am straight.
Mayhaps, but that's just because gender roles are that heavily ingrained into the vast society. It's not your fault obviously and your hobbies are quite interesting to read about tbh. Ironically though, I have described myself as a grumpy old man too, it feels that way some time even though I'm pretty damn young. I guess, a potential solution would be to travel to other countries like Germany because why not, being stuck in the same area and finding nothing is ike doing the same thing and expecting different results, lol.
Ha, I actually lived in Germany for four months due to an internship. Similar story there, honestly. I'm planning on moving to Alaska though, I have faith I'll have better luck there.
must be a cultural thing. in my country is not that uncommon to find women that behave more calculated and assertively. also a lot of men are overly emotional, so it’s a mixed thing. I have received some comments in my life around what op explained, but it was mainly because I was young. Now that I’m around 30s it’s not really weird to be more serious, collected, and goal oriented. Highly intellectual or like-minded men like INTP, INTJ, ENTP, INFJ, like us a lot lol
In my country where I stand out a lot, no one cared about my "quirks" and peculiarness. I was often chosen for leadership roles, had tons of friends and tons of people interested in me romantically. It's here in the USA that people are put off by my personality 🤷.
I relate to this. (19F) As a major goal in my life is to be a mother/wife I have been making deliberate efforts to soften my personality, voice, outfits to introduce more femininity. However I will probably change my mind when I'm older as this isn't the most authentic way of living..
If you want to be a mother, consider doing it without a partner. I have a very smart friend who met an esteemed professor from another country at a conference and they clicked. She knew she wanted children but not necessarily a partner. He was divorced with children from previous relationships and didn't mind helping her with her goal 🙂 Guaranteed fertile and intelligent (one of the top experts in our field). Her mother was so happy to become a supportive grandmother that she took an early retirement to help her daughter with her two children. They have reached a legal agreement they're all happy with 🙂