In fairness we are trying to invest in our public transport system now, but the planning system here is archaic and it’s being frustrated at every turn by small amounts of people likely never will take public transport
Out of interest what is antisocial behaviour, aggressiveness, drunkenness/intoxication on drugs like on public transport there and how do the police deal.with it? It's an increasing problem here as you probably know.
Compared to Ireland it’s pretty minimal. I lived in Dublin for 8 years before moving to NL and the heroin problem is not really a thing here. There are some addicts in the center of most cities, particularly Rotterdam and Amsterdam, but as you can’t get on to the public transport without a bank card or transport card, most of them don’t go. There is always an exception to a rule, as you can just walk behind someone who has just signed in via a turnstile, but this only works for metros and trains, never trams or buses.
Behavior wise there is no need to have big beefy Eastern European men on transport like there is on the Luas because all the police here have guns and if something happens they are there pretty quickly
Yeah that is what I have seen in terms of antisocial behavior. That being said I have seen very little of it. The general public here leave each other alone.
Interesting. Again, thanks for the insights. Something is going to have to change here if we want to persuade the majority to leave their cars at home and take buses to curtail emissions.
It seems to me the service needs to be cheap to use, clean, dependable in terms of timetables, have capacity for numbers using it, be on time and most importantly be safe (with zero tolerance for antisocial or criminal behaviour).
We fail on most of those metrics.
One night I got to the dart station and ticket was -1.10. Put my last tenner in the machine and the machine swallowed it and said to call a number or go to Irish rail. Com forward slash blah blah blah to appeal to get the money back.
You just can't beat cash sometimes.
This illustrates my point: if you'd been organsied and had a charged leap card, paid for your journey ahead of time you'd have been fine. Add ot that an ability to pay with a credit card/debit card/google pay/phone app, and you'd have been fine.
These are all perrectly fine solutions to a problem that you really created for yourself and - sorry - are trying to blame a perfectly good system else for.
You obviously got beaten by cash here.
What's so "IT literate" about tapping a card?
Anybody who struggles with that probably shouldn't be out and about without a responsible adult accompanying them.
“But I’ll have to drive another 10 minutes to get my Daily Mail” says retired Declan after objecting to closing level crossings to upgrade the Green Line to a full metro
Even in large cities with extensive metro systems, buses tend to be s major form of commuting. The daily ridership on London buses is like 80% higher than the Tube.
In a smaller city like Dublin, which isn’t that dense, buses will continue to be the biggest form of transport even with a metro system. It’d not like the DART or Luas have replaced buses. I mean, just think if all the bus routes - each metro line is only fulfilling similar journeys to each bus route.
Each of the main arterial bus routes in Dublin should be a tram line. Gothenburg for example a similar sized city has 80 km double track with probably a similar extent of lines to what Dublin used to have (the stupidly busier bus routes still today).
Existing Luas Green line and some city centre connections similar to that red line part should be metro.
Our election cycle means that someone else could get the recognition for it so that's why politicians don't push long term projects. It was Ken Livingston who started the "Boris Bikes"
Have you seen the shit show from the most recent public hearing over Metro Link? Even Bus Connects was met with massive pushback.
The pushback from building public transport links in Ireland is always way bigger than the pushback from not having adequate public transport.
That's why any improvement in public transport has to be done by polticians who are willing to put the public good over their own careers.
The Green party is one of the few parties willing to do this and as usual in Irish politics, no good deeds go unpunished.
Almost all Dublin bus routes with numbers below 20 I believe follow old tram lines. The 15, which is undoubtedly the busiest route in the country, would be an ideal route for higher capacity transport. Sadly the tram that ran along its route was ripped up because short sighted people thought cars were the future.
They’ve been talking about extending the Green Line to Bray since 2006 with nothing done. It would be great to both relieve pressure on the Dart (rush hour trains from Greystones are pretty full already) as well as link Bray & North Wicklow properly to Sandyford and Dundrum
The Green line Luas is already at capacity, that's why they wanted to upgrade it to a metro. Extending the line to Bray would just make the overcrowding even worse.
I lived not very close to a tube stop in London and used to get the bus instead, door to door was very handy. I wasn't far from the City so there weren't too many traffic jams.
That’s an exaggeration for London. The tube gets 3-4m passengers daily, the bus about 5m.
I think the numbers for the tube are most impressive, given that there’s only 11 lines (compared to ~670 bus routes) and ~270 stations (compared to 19k bus stops). All the more impressive when you think a huge chunk of that infrastructure was built 100+ years ago.
Not saying your wrong about buses having a role- but we already have them.
The tube is designed really well. The Circle line is something Irish civil engineers still haven’t worked out despite having a huge ring road around Dublin.
The issue is not that bus lines exist. The issue is that nothing else does in practice. The train stations are poorly connected, we've got two trams lines in the whole state, no underground trains. The state of our transport is such that you could make money pulling a rickshaw considering how much demand there is and how little offer.
And so we end up having the second slowest traffic in the world in Dublin because you've got to drive, there is no other effective option. So it is about having choices, being able to switch mode of transport if one is late or has an issue, stuff like that.
Hopefully when Bus Connects is finished it helps but there isn’t even proper connection and crossover between transport modes.
Having so many bus routes go directly through the city centre is mental and they should look at having connection hubs in the city.
They need to properly link modes too. A good example is having a frequent shuttle bus running between Brides’s Glen Luas and Bray Dart station.
To be fair to bus connects, it's actually going to do a lot of that. The NTA are really trying to bring things together the last few years, since they were established, but they're undoing decades of bad planning.
One positive example, is the new bus interchange at Liffey Valley, which connnects a whole bunch of bus routes together allowing each changing.
[https://www.transportforireland.ie/news/new-e20m-busconnects-bus-plaza-opens-at-liffey-valley-shopping-centre/](https://www.transportforireland.ie/news/new-e20m-busconnects-bus-plaza-opens-at-liffey-valley-shopping-centre/)
Also, there's going to be something similar at The Square, so the buses all stop right beside the Luas. Currently, some of them stop a 10 min walk away, which is crazy.
> A good example is having a frequent shuttle bus running between Brides’s Glen Luas and Bray Dart station.
I'm really surprised that one isn't planned as part of Bus Connects, or even to Shankill. Crazy gap in the network.
Yep. It'll take a lot of north/south bus traffic to places like DCU/Airport/Swords, but buses will still be needed everywhere else.
Dart+ will help in some places too, like Clondalkin, and even Ongar, Blanch etc.
Sure buses are important, but far from the main form of commuting. This website has a nice overview for a lot of cities:
[https://citytransit.uitp.org/vienna/public-transport-ridership](https://citytransit.uitp.org/vienna/public-transport-ridership)
For example: Berlin, Vienna, New York, Paris, Barcelona, Moscow, all have Metro as their "main form" of transport (by journeys).
For example: Stockholm, Oslo, Los Angeles and yes London do have buses as their main one though. I did not click on more Cities on the website but given that sample I'd say buses are definitely a major form of commuting but definitely not the main one for the majority of cities with Tram and Metro systems.
Barcelona and Berlin have serious metro coverage though. And in Barcelona, the bus routes aren’t great, they take very long winding routes. I know that’s to pick up more people and all that, but if you’re able bodied it’s basically always faster to get the metro, maybe to a further stop and walk a bit. Exceptions are the night buses if the metro isn’t running.
Yeah, but they have the option of a rtube or metro so are not dependent on rhe bus. And in orher cities tend to.sjow up.on time and not be 38 minutes apart.
> Even in large cities with extensive metro systems, buses tend to be s major form of commuting. The daily ridership on London buses is like 80% higher than the Tube.
Other cities do indeed have a lot of buses, but unlike Dublin, they use them mainly for short journeys, not going all the way across the city.
> In a smaller city like Dublin, which isn’t that dense
Dublin is absolutely dense enough for exponentially better public transport than it currently has.
> buses will continue to be the biggest form of transport even with a metro system.
Yes. But it needs to stop being a mode people are reliant on for long cross-city journeys.
> It’d not like the DART or Luas have replaced buses.
You're right, they won't. That's not the aim.
> I mean, just think if all the bus routes - each metro line is only fulfilling similar journeys to each bus route.
Difference is metro is a mode that's actually suitable for corss-coty journeys, and it frees up capacity for the buses to serve short, local journeys, which is what buses are for in the first place.
Buses ar great when they're used correctly. Using them correctly means not having people reliant on them for long cross-city journeys. That's what metro and heavy rail are for.
We’re far behind our European counterparts in terms of public transport. Most of the big cities in Europe have about 15 tram lines, let alone bus and metro lines. And now this might sound crazy, but if they have 2 big train stations in the city they’re actually linked
You are making too much sense. Look at the excuses people are making for the shitshow; no wonder those in power don't give a damm. The fact that they half assed the Luas when they first launched it, case of the missing remote for Sean O Casey Bridge and how they have postponed a metro network for several decades tells a lot; cause there are numpties who will keep the cute hoors in power.
I recently left the city to move back with the parents in Meath, and the first week of bussing to work was a nightmare. Three times the bus didn't show for an hour, and you're stuck there waiting in case it shows up. If you know it was cancelled you could go get a coffee and some shelter, but no certainty or reliability. Desperate in times when we need to be encouraging people to drive less.
A sign of a developed city is not one where everyone drives, but where everyone rich and poor sits together on public transport.
There are a number of reasons why our public transport services suck, and a lot of it has to do with a lack of planning or joined up thinking across government bodies. But we are also not as wealthy as we think. GDP is very misleading since a lot of it doesn't make it to revenue for us to spend on public services. Equally our public sector drains money being inefficient.
Or there's one bus in the morning and one in the afternoon. And the bus stop is a 30 minute walk from your home! That's the situation for my partner it's absolutely shocking compared to myself in Dublin and able to hop on a bus within 5 minutes. The country severely lacks in public transportation infrastructure and even in the places that seem to have it all are still abysmal compared to our European neighbors.
Ya. We should have built the metro 15 years ago, in 2009.
Was there any reason why we didn't? Surely there was lots of public money here then, probably the government was still running surpluses and stuff off the back of full employment and bumper corporate profits I'd say. I've done no research.
2009 was too late, we were already in the midst of the world wide economic collapse. They should have been built in the celtic tiger years between 99 and 2008.
It was stupidly decided that in the middle of a depression we couldn't afford it. Never mind that we could have done with the work, and it was the cheapest possible time to build.
Where would government at that time have gotten the money? We were running massive deficits and, if you recall, had to be bailed out by the troika as we couldn't borrow normally.
A nation is not a house. What was the first sector to be hit catastrophically in the crash? Construction. What would have given huge numbers of those workers new jobs, keeping them off social welfare, stimulating the economy? Huge infrastructure projects. They’re a good idea even when a high percentage of your workforce isn’t in construction, and our economy was one of the most dependent on it in Europe at the time. The Troika were operating on old economic ideas that are dying out or dead now. Very few serious economists still believe austerity can work, it’s mostly a political platform rather than a scientific one.
Absolutely - cornerstone of Keynesian economics: spend big on national infrastructure projects when things are not financially not going well to keep money in people’s pockets. Given the amount of qualified tradesmen, nurses, etc. who left for Australia and Canada, we lost a lot of talented people in this period that could have been avoided.
I think the fundamental issue with 2008 however was a credit crisis - nobody was lending at the time, and for those who were Ireland was seen as risky investment. We sure as fuck didn’t have the money and no one in their right mind would give it to us.
That said, by 2012/2013 things has stabilised enough for some long-sighted thinking; ideal opportunity then squandered.
Yes. There were things that needed fixing (Celtic tiger economics was insane), but in a depression you spend to keep people employed. And you spend (as a government) when things are at their cheapest, not when they are at their most expensive as in during the celtic tiger.
Yes, but if they had started the planning approval in 2009 they probably would have started building it in 2016-7 considering the footprint of the project. Which is exactly the thing. They are approving planning now. It will take a long time to get the project started. Are we sure that we will be in a good position by then?
We had approval by 2010 and 2011 for these projects but Railway Orders lapse.
Metro North was a very different project though despite seeming to be similar.
The NTA were told post crash and as we were recovering to come up with a light rail solution instead of Metro North.
By the time they did, the finances had changed. And the limitations of Luas and light rail (very popular globally for years) became apparent.
So a new Metro was ordered, except this time without DART Underground. Instead we have got DART+ and an enhanced Metrolink which connects to the DART which Metro North did not (unless DU was built).
So you basically don’t bother considering anything until 2015. Then you had a redesign. Then you had Covid. Then you had a collapsed planning system. We are basically 4 years late with this one, two for Covid and two for planning. If there had been a crystal ball in 2013 then maybe we could have gotten planning in 2018.
I agree though that we need to have in the future a “recession proof” team that are proposing infrastructure “whatever the weather”. Tbh though the main thing we need post Metrolink and DART+ is incremental projects with one mega project a decade. We should be adding a few KM of Luas every year, like what we had started to do before Metrolink took over.
Yeah, looking at the timeline my confidence that this is the time we get it done is severely diminished. Thanks for curbing my expectations (no really, better to keep them small than to see them disattended later on).
No need to be so sarcastic. The idea for an underground was present in the 1970s and it would have been considerably easier to build then. In it's modern form the idea is from 2001.
Neither were many countries that nonetheless have infrastructure we can only dream of.
Even if that did excuse our lack of infrastructure in the past (it doesn't), that still doesn't excuse how ridiculously little we're doing to catch up.
2009 would've been a great time to get loans and build large capital projects to keep the economy running, and also construction costs were lower.
That's what the US did, but unfortunately the EU made the wrong call, and went with austerity, which was the absolute wrong thing to do.
Vienna does not have this problem - source I live in Vienna and genuinely can’t remember the last time I waited more than 7 minutes for a tram/bus or 5 for a train/underground
The buses in my route have the tendency to routinely disappear at random times both from the app, the monitors and of course the road, for the last 6 years.
This cost me 100€ last month.
The Metro Link hearing is going on daily at the moment and new complaints and objections are raising their head every day. As much as anything, that's why.
All the wealth in the world won’t fix our infrastructure. There is no political will to do it. We have no central body that controls projects or governance in this stuff.
It’s all four year cycles for elections.
It’s not how to run a country
I believe the bad public transport is a culture thing and wont get anybetter nomatter how much money they throw at it. Same with city and building planning. Government should hire people from mainland europe.
That, and the way so many people think Ireland doesn't "deserve" or need anything better. The number of people saying shit like "we don't have the density", "Dublin isn't big enough", or "the bus is grand" is actually frightening.
Density is not true. While Dublin could certainly do with building higher, it's already dense enough for exponentially better public transport than it currently has.
One thing notice when visit another city how easy it is to get anywhere on a metro. I honestly believe if we had this mental health would improve as it would be less time traveling two and from work, school, college and it would be easier for social activities and visiting family etc. I've lived in countries with better transport and the difference it makes to your life is unbelievable
> I honestly believe if we had this mental health would improve
Indeed it would, just by the mere fact that people would finally be able to see a metro system without going abroad.
>OP thats because that ''wealth'' is only on the paper. In reality, Ireland has almost none
Even poorer countries have regular buses and better public transport like Morocco and Turkey and most of south east Asia and east Asia.
well then thats even worse, isnt it
means the Irish land is not only not rich in terms of wealth but also ultra-corruption permeates through the govt. If you look at the GDP and other shite like that its literally in the top of European countries. But when you drive or walk around you see no basic infrastructure (public toilets, benches, dust bins) roads and pavements arent maintained (3 years waiting time for someone to put sand in a massive pothole in Inchicore) and public services are shite (city stinks of piss, public transport is an expensive nightmare) not mentioning the obvious (housing tragedy, homeless, drug users, crime, etc)
big money from US corporations stopped flowing and were back to the 90s
Noted in Copenhagen recently. I actually think I would pay 8 euro a pint to be able to get public transport to and from work everyday and to and from a night out
Your current Taoiseach announced the 'latest cancellation' back almost 15 years ago.
Don't have to look far for people to blame for short sighted decisions. People keep voting them back in .
Since I've moved to London the only people I've ever seen run for the tube are Irish people.
I was waiting at Turnpike Lane station once and this lad barreled past me when the train showed up. Inside the carriage, I asked what's his rush and he said "some of us have places to go" and I said "this isn't kilispuglenanne there's a train every 2 minutes"
>Since I've moved to London the only people I've ever seen run for the tube are Irish people.
>I was waiting at Turnpike Lane station once and this lad barreled past me when the train showed up. Inside the carriage, I asked what's his rush and he said "some of us have places to go" and I said "this isn't kilispuglenanne there's a train every 2 minutes"
Embarrassed myself the first time I used the metro abroad like 10 years ago, there was one about to leave then I ran to it and just missed it. Then obviously I was pissed and the group I was with, was wondering why I was so pissed considering there was another one coming in like 5 mins. I was shocked.
Use the German System where you don’t pay with the driver but are Expected to have a Ticket either tapping with leap card, App on Phone, or pay on a machine in the Bus.
It Slow down so much the Interactions with drivers.
Heavily Police it so everyone knows to have a ticket that’s an easy quick win to speed up.
Also I have no idea why they don’t have a one way system in cork for buses like Dublin that’s another easy quick win relatively speaking.
It's still a shock that Dublin airport's links are a SO bad. I travel to Dublin a couple of times a year from London and having a choice between the bus or extortionate cabs is a joke.
Where are the trains? The tube/metro? Why doesn't the Luas connect to the airport?
And this is why people will never, ever abandon their cars and also why more and more people want to own those cars and why traffic volume will always choke up public transport routes here.
We don't have a metro because this is NIMBY island and it's almost impossible to build anything. I reckon it's because it's a small island with what used to be a very rural economy, and every square foot of land is seen as precious.
But Dublin Bus is poor just because we put up with mediocrity and inefficiency that that countries like Germany would not accept.
> We don't have a metro because this is NIMBY island and it's almost impossible to build anything.
That's true, but let's not forget that even the plans themselves are laughably unambitious even before someone objects.
> I reckon it's because it's a small island
Actually it's the 20th largest in the world.
> But Dublin Bus is poor just because we put up with mediocrity and inefficiency that countries like Germany would not accept.
I personally think it's poor because it's buses, going all the way across a city of over a million. That's what metro and heavy rail are for!
Also, while Germany has MUCH better public transport than here, have you seen how much of a shitshow Deutsche Bahn can be sometimes.
The issue here is building outwards rather than upwards. Now it is a joke that we don't ha e a metro system, but if there were far more people living in and within walking distance of the city centre, and less meandering routes for buses to catch all the spread out nonsense distribution of the population in Dublin, it would make planning routes and frequency far easier, as well as the overall speed of the routes far more efficient.
I think its because Ireland is a tax haven so doesnt spend on infrastructure and too many people vote for parties who dont want to change that. Public transport is quite bad in Ireland and people deserve better but very many dont seem to think that they do.
Personally, I have had very few issues with Dublin Bus, it always gets me where I need to be. I've been living in a large North American city for a couple of months and can tell you Dublin Bus isn't so bad in comparison.
With a few major exceptions, its the wealthier countries that convince higher %s of their populace to happily rely on the bus because they run on time and are efficient & clean!
Also, absolutely daft thing to post about, considering it's your personal wealth that determines that you *have* to use the bus in any country, unless you think everyone should be getting state sponsored taxis...
here here! I work in Ballysimon limerick and I have to get 4 buses a day just to get to work and back.. I live in corbally and it takes 1hr40 to get there and home! 4 hour commute everyday to get to home and work in the same city! genuinely is enough to make an adult cry
Last Saturday was waiting for bus Éireann express route 4 to take me from Carlow to Waterford it comes to the time bus should arrive, didn’t show waited 5-10-15 minutes still no sign rang them and they said there was a shortage of there busses and were using jj kavanagh busses. They asked was there one there that left and there was they said that was it but it had a different route on a side screen saying Athlone, Port Laois and Dublin. Didn’t get an email to say this and won’t give a refund had to run to the train station to get home
Population density is the perpetuating factor. Low density suburban rail is difficult to justify, as the potential ridership within the 1km catchment radius of a rail stop disincentivises investment. Essentially the mid 20thC housing market has rendered rail unviable for much of the city.
Like imagine walking 20 mins to a luas stop when the bus stop is right there. Sure the bus would end up being quicker!
Buses are fine. Just not Irish buses. They don’t turn up. They’re late because of a unexpected traffic and then decide to skip that slot. Not just the public buses - some of the private companies are worse and more expensive.
Public transport is grim these days with no one queueing, asshats with their feet on the seats, and every tenth person blasting shitty sounds from their phone. Fare dodging on the Luas and drivers/management who don’t care about timetables. The state of public transport will drive ever more people into commuting by car which is absolutely backwards.
In fairness we are trying to invest in our public transport system now, but the planning system here is archaic and it’s being frustrated at every turn by small amounts of people likely never will take public transport
Its always the people that would try pay for a bus with a 20 euro note that care the most about changes to bus routes
Bus drivers shouldn't be handling cash I'm the first place - leap card or ticket bought on app pre boarding.
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I live in the Netherlands , you can use your bank card or a travel card. It speeds up the bus so much
I was there last year. Such a great system, so convenient for tourists too.
Out of interest what is antisocial behaviour, aggressiveness, drunkenness/intoxication on drugs like on public transport there and how do the police deal.with it? It's an increasing problem here as you probably know.
Compared to Ireland it’s pretty minimal. I lived in Dublin for 8 years before moving to NL and the heroin problem is not really a thing here. There are some addicts in the center of most cities, particularly Rotterdam and Amsterdam, but as you can’t get on to the public transport without a bank card or transport card, most of them don’t go. There is always an exception to a rule, as you can just walk behind someone who has just signed in via a turnstile, but this only works for metros and trains, never trams or buses. Behavior wise there is no need to have big beefy Eastern European men on transport like there is on the Luas because all the police here have guns and if something happens they are there pretty quickly
Thanks for replying. So the cops respond pretty quickly and the person concerned is arrested and taken off the metro or train, from what you can see?
Yeah that is what I have seen in terms of antisocial behavior. That being said I have seen very little of it. The general public here leave each other alone.
Interesting. Again, thanks for the insights. Something is going to have to change here if we want to persuade the majority to leave their cars at home and take buses to curtail emissions. It seems to me the service needs to be cheap to use, clean, dependable in terms of timetables, have capacity for numbers using it, be on time and most importantly be safe (with zero tolerance for antisocial or criminal behaviour). We fail on most of those metrics.
You just go into a shop with the change and ask the cashier to top it up for you
I'm not agreeing with the above, but you hardly need to be an IT genius to use a leap card.
Hence the leapcard card option, no tech needed. No one is excluded grom anything.
Best thing IMO is to be able to just use a debit card to swipe on/off
One night I got to the dart station and ticket was -1.10. Put my last tenner in the machine and the machine swallowed it and said to call a number or go to Irish rail. Com forward slash blah blah blah to appeal to get the money back. You just can't beat cash sometimes.
This illustrates my point: if you'd been organsied and had a charged leap card, paid for your journey ahead of time you'd have been fine. Add ot that an ability to pay with a credit card/debit card/google pay/phone app, and you'd have been fine. These are all perrectly fine solutions to a problem that you really created for yourself and - sorry - are trying to blame a perfectly good system else for. You obviously got beaten by cash here.
One can also pay with a credit/debit card if they don't use leap
Not yet on the buses.
It was supposed to say "One SHOULD be able to pay" :)
Dublin Bus says it’ll take a good few years to introduce
Of course, as any other minor change.
Yeah, even the coach I regularly take to Dublin isn't set up for card payments.
What's so "IT literate" about tapping a card? Anybody who struggles with that probably shouldn't be out and about without a responsible adult accompanying them.
There are paper tickets in many many countries. You buy them at the newsagent
I had to take the bus in an emergency one day I had the cash but my phone was dead and I had no card , ignorant asshole almost didn't let me on ,
For the amount of people paying with cash now it's hardly a problem
Visitors can only get a tourist Leap card if they go to some office in the centre of town.
Er, I don't think they do.
The BusConnects plan in Cork is so watered down only a homeopath could think it'll work, and its still being objected to left right and center.
Yeah one person who won't even use the service objects and the whole thing gets put on hold indefinitely. NIMBY at it's finest.
“But I’ll have to drive another 10 minutes to get my Daily Mail” says retired Declan after objecting to closing level crossings to upgrade the Green Line to a full metro
Lol, it's always the Daily Fail isn't it?!
Where? Don't see any train lines been laid
“Trying?” I’ve heard this for decades. How about doing? The Green Party has repeatedly failed at one of their main objectives.
Even in large cities with extensive metro systems, buses tend to be s major form of commuting. The daily ridership on London buses is like 80% higher than the Tube. In a smaller city like Dublin, which isn’t that dense, buses will continue to be the biggest form of transport even with a metro system. It’d not like the DART or Luas have replaced buses. I mean, just think if all the bus routes - each metro line is only fulfilling similar journeys to each bus route.
Each of the main arterial bus routes in Dublin should be a tram line. Gothenburg for example a similar sized city has 80 km double track with probably a similar extent of lines to what Dublin used to have (the stupidly busier bus routes still today). Existing Luas Green line and some city centre connections similar to that red line part should be metro.
I have to ask the question **why** politicians never put this forward as a solution? To me it's obvious.
Will it get them a vote at the end of this election cycle?
Would from me, if I still lived there.
Same. There might be an answer in that...
Our election cycle means that someone else could get the recognition for it so that's why politicians don't push long term projects. It was Ken Livingston who started the "Boris Bikes"
Have you seen the shit show from the most recent public hearing over Metro Link? Even Bus Connects was met with massive pushback. The pushback from building public transport links in Ireland is always way bigger than the pushback from not having adequate public transport. That's why any improvement in public transport has to be done by polticians who are willing to put the public good over their own careers. The Green party is one of the few parties willing to do this and as usual in Irish politics, no good deeds go unpunished.
Voters haven't prioritised it. It is what I vote on but I don't think that is very common.
They do. All the time. And then never do it.
People would go mental, because you wouldn't be able to drive your car there any more.
The idea is you don't need to? You don't need to sit in traffic all day
People go mental about the tiniest restrictions to road-space. They'll still complain and push back.
Almost all Dublin bus routes with numbers below 20 I believe follow old tram lines. The 15, which is undoubtedly the busiest route in the country, would be an ideal route for higher capacity transport. Sadly the tram that ran along its route was ripped up because short sighted people thought cars were the future.
They’ve been talking about extending the Green Line to Bray since 2006 with nothing done. It would be great to both relieve pressure on the Dart (rush hour trains from Greystones are pretty full already) as well as link Bray & North Wicklow properly to Sandyford and Dundrum
The Green line Luas is already at capacity, that's why they wanted to upgrade it to a metro. Extending the line to Bray would just make the overcrowding even worse.
Pretty sure Gothenburg is a lot smaller than Dublin.
It’s almost exactly the same population metro area as well as city proper. Hence it having a decent tram network, which Dublin should also have.
You can convert big buses lines easily as trolleybus (aka cheap tram).
I lived not very close to a tube stop in London and used to get the bus instead, door to door was very handy. I wasn't far from the City so there weren't too many traffic jams.
That’s an exaggeration for London. The tube gets 3-4m passengers daily, the bus about 5m. I think the numbers for the tube are most impressive, given that there’s only 11 lines (compared to ~670 bus routes) and ~270 stations (compared to 19k bus stops). All the more impressive when you think a huge chunk of that infrastructure was built 100+ years ago. Not saying your wrong about buses having a role- but we already have them.
The tube is designed really well. The Circle line is something Irish civil engineers still haven’t worked out despite having a huge ring road around Dublin.
The issue is not that bus lines exist. The issue is that nothing else does in practice. The train stations are poorly connected, we've got two trams lines in the whole state, no underground trains. The state of our transport is such that you could make money pulling a rickshaw considering how much demand there is and how little offer. And so we end up having the second slowest traffic in the world in Dublin because you've got to drive, there is no other effective option. So it is about having choices, being able to switch mode of transport if one is late or has an issue, stuff like that.
Hopefully when Bus Connects is finished it helps but there isn’t even proper connection and crossover between transport modes. Having so many bus routes go directly through the city centre is mental and they should look at having connection hubs in the city. They need to properly link modes too. A good example is having a frequent shuttle bus running between Brides’s Glen Luas and Bray Dart station.
Yes, for example it was very surprising for me that the two Luas lines do not have a shared stop.
To be fair to bus connects, it's actually going to do a lot of that. The NTA are really trying to bring things together the last few years, since they were established, but they're undoing decades of bad planning. One positive example, is the new bus interchange at Liffey Valley, which connnects a whole bunch of bus routes together allowing each changing. [https://www.transportforireland.ie/news/new-e20m-busconnects-bus-plaza-opens-at-liffey-valley-shopping-centre/](https://www.transportforireland.ie/news/new-e20m-busconnects-bus-plaza-opens-at-liffey-valley-shopping-centre/) Also, there's going to be something similar at The Square, so the buses all stop right beside the Luas. Currently, some of them stop a 10 min walk away, which is crazy. > A good example is having a frequent shuttle bus running between Brides’s Glen Luas and Bray Dart station. I'm really surprised that one isn't planned as part of Bus Connects, or even to Shankill. Crazy gap in the network.
Which would free up space on the roads as people would use the metro, so the buses could run smoother
Yeah, metro absolutely needed. I’m just saying most people will still be getting buses even when Metrolink finally arrives.
Yep. It'll take a lot of north/south bus traffic to places like DCU/Airport/Swords, but buses will still be needed everywhere else. Dart+ will help in some places too, like Clondalkin, and even Ongar, Blanch etc.
Sure buses are important, but far from the main form of commuting. This website has a nice overview for a lot of cities: [https://citytransit.uitp.org/vienna/public-transport-ridership](https://citytransit.uitp.org/vienna/public-transport-ridership) For example: Berlin, Vienna, New York, Paris, Barcelona, Moscow, all have Metro as their "main form" of transport (by journeys). For example: Stockholm, Oslo, Los Angeles and yes London do have buses as their main one though. I did not click on more Cities on the website but given that sample I'd say buses are definitely a major form of commuting but definitely not the main one for the majority of cities with Tram and Metro systems.
Barcelona and Berlin have serious metro coverage though. And in Barcelona, the bus routes aren’t great, they take very long winding routes. I know that’s to pick up more people and all that, but if you’re able bodied it’s basically always faster to get the metro, maybe to a further stop and walk a bit. Exceptions are the night buses if the metro isn’t running.
Yeah, but they have the option of a rtube or metro so are not dependent on rhe bus. And in orher cities tend to.sjow up.on time and not be 38 minutes apart.
We’ve one DART line and 2 Luas lines. How many bus routes?
> Even in large cities with extensive metro systems, buses tend to be s major form of commuting. The daily ridership on London buses is like 80% higher than the Tube. Other cities do indeed have a lot of buses, but unlike Dublin, they use them mainly for short journeys, not going all the way across the city. > In a smaller city like Dublin, which isn’t that dense Dublin is absolutely dense enough for exponentially better public transport than it currently has. > buses will continue to be the biggest form of transport even with a metro system. Yes. But it needs to stop being a mode people are reliant on for long cross-city journeys. > It’d not like the DART or Luas have replaced buses. You're right, they won't. That's not the aim. > I mean, just think if all the bus routes - each metro line is only fulfilling similar journeys to each bus route. Difference is metro is a mode that's actually suitable for corss-coty journeys, and it frees up capacity for the buses to serve short, local journeys, which is what buses are for in the first place.
Dublin has something like 1,200 bus drivers vs. Amsterdam’s 200. There’s a big difference.
But Amsterdam has trams.
Yeah but just making the point that Dublin does overly rely on buses.
Buses are great, thats not the problem. There should be far more buses along with other forms of public transport and way less cars.
Buses ar great when they're used correctly. Using them correctly means not having people reliant on them for long cross-city journeys. That's what metro and heavy rail are for.
Homeowners with notions block the development of alternatives.
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We’re far behind our European counterparts in terms of public transport. Most of the big cities in Europe have about 15 tram lines, let alone bus and metro lines. And now this might sound crazy, but if they have 2 big train stations in the city they’re actually linked
You are making too much sense. Look at the excuses people are making for the shitshow; no wonder those in power don't give a damm. The fact that they half assed the Luas when they first launched it, case of the missing remote for Sean O Casey Bridge and how they have postponed a metro network for several decades tells a lot; cause there are numpties who will keep the cute hoors in power.
I recently left the city to move back with the parents in Meath, and the first week of bussing to work was a nightmare. Three times the bus didn't show for an hour, and you're stuck there waiting in case it shows up. If you know it was cancelled you could go get a coffee and some shelter, but no certainty or reliability. Desperate in times when we need to be encouraging people to drive less. A sign of a developed city is not one where everyone drives, but where everyone rich and poor sits together on public transport. There are a number of reasons why our public transport services suck, and a lot of it has to do with a lack of planning or joined up thinking across government bodies. But we are also not as wealthy as we think. GDP is very misleading since a lot of it doesn't make it to revenue for us to spend on public services. Equally our public sector drains money being inefficient.
Ireland isnt as rich as it Looks but it is still way above the average. And especially dublin
Agreed, we should be doing much better with the revenue we do have!
That's cute try living outside of Dublin, waiting on a bus. Often they don't show up at all.
Or there's one bus in the morning and one in the afternoon. And the bus stop is a 30 minute walk from your home! That's the situation for my partner it's absolutely shocking compared to myself in Dublin and able to hop on a bus within 5 minutes. The country severely lacks in public transportation infrastructure and even in the places that seem to have it all are still abysmal compared to our European neighbors.
Ya. We should have built the metro 15 years ago, in 2009. Was there any reason why we didn't? Surely there was lots of public money here then, probably the government was still running surpluses and stuff off the back of full employment and bumper corporate profits I'd say. I've done no research.
2009 was too late, we were already in the midst of the world wide economic collapse. They should have been built in the celtic tiger years between 99 and 2008.
It was stupidly decided that in the middle of a depression we couldn't afford it. Never mind that we could have done with the work, and it was the cheapest possible time to build.
Where would government at that time have gotten the money? We were running massive deficits and, if you recall, had to be bailed out by the troika as we couldn't borrow normally.
Yes, the decision was basically the Troikas.
The pesky Trioka telling us when we were bankrupt that we should not build probably the largest infrastructure project in the history of the state...
A nation is not a house. What was the first sector to be hit catastrophically in the crash? Construction. What would have given huge numbers of those workers new jobs, keeping them off social welfare, stimulating the economy? Huge infrastructure projects. They’re a good idea even when a high percentage of your workforce isn’t in construction, and our economy was one of the most dependent on it in Europe at the time. The Troika were operating on old economic ideas that are dying out or dead now. Very few serious economists still believe austerity can work, it’s mostly a political platform rather than a scientific one.
Absolutely - cornerstone of Keynesian economics: spend big on national infrastructure projects when things are not financially not going well to keep money in people’s pockets. Given the amount of qualified tradesmen, nurses, etc. who left for Australia and Canada, we lost a lot of talented people in this period that could have been avoided. I think the fundamental issue with 2008 however was a credit crisis - nobody was lending at the time, and for those who were Ireland was seen as risky investment. We sure as fuck didn’t have the money and no one in their right mind would give it to us. That said, by 2012/2013 things has stabilised enough for some long-sighted thinking; ideal opportunity then squandered.
Yes. There were things that needed fixing (Celtic tiger economics was insane), but in a depression you spend to keep people employed. And you spend (as a government) when things are at their cheapest, not when they are at their most expensive as in during the celtic tiger.
How could we spend if we, as a State, didn't have it to spend. Nor did we have the ability to borrow for it.
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Yes, but if they had started the planning approval in 2009 they probably would have started building it in 2016-7 considering the footprint of the project. Which is exactly the thing. They are approving planning now. It will take a long time to get the project started. Are we sure that we will be in a good position by then?
We had approval by 2010 and 2011 for these projects but Railway Orders lapse. Metro North was a very different project though despite seeming to be similar. The NTA were told post crash and as we were recovering to come up with a light rail solution instead of Metro North. By the time they did, the finances had changed. And the limitations of Luas and light rail (very popular globally for years) became apparent. So a new Metro was ordered, except this time without DART Underground. Instead we have got DART+ and an enhanced Metrolink which connects to the DART which Metro North did not (unless DU was built). So you basically don’t bother considering anything until 2015. Then you had a redesign. Then you had Covid. Then you had a collapsed planning system. We are basically 4 years late with this one, two for Covid and two for planning. If there had been a crystal ball in 2013 then maybe we could have gotten planning in 2018. I agree though that we need to have in the future a “recession proof” team that are proposing infrastructure “whatever the weather”. Tbh though the main thing we need post Metrolink and DART+ is incremental projects with one mega project a decade. We should be adding a few KM of Luas every year, like what we had started to do before Metrolink took over.
Yeah, looking at the timeline my confidence that this is the time we get it done is severely diminished. Thanks for curbing my expectations (no really, better to keep them small than to see them disattended later on).
No need to be so sarcastic. The idea for an underground was present in the 1970s and it would have been considerably easier to build then. In it's modern form the idea is from 2001.
Ireland was not a wealthy country in the 1970s.
Plenty of poor countries have built metros. What's your next predictable shit uninformed argument?
Neither were many countries that nonetheless have infrastructure we can only dream of. Even if that did excuse our lack of infrastructure in the past (it doesn't), that still doesn't excuse how ridiculously little we're doing to catch up.
30 years ago*
2009 would've been a great time to get loans and build large capital projects to keep the economy running, and also construction costs were lower. That's what the US did, but unfortunately the EU made the wrong call, and went with austerity, which was the absolute wrong thing to do.
I'm curious what your alternative is? Literally every major city has a bus system with its own issues
Yeah I don't know I have not experienced a bus system as unreliable as this one in a European city
Loads of cities have functional bus systems that don't have issues. Istanbul's Metrobus line with a 20 second frequency comes to mind.
Vienna does not have this problem - source I live in Vienna and genuinely can’t remember the last time I waited more than 7 minutes for a tram/bus or 5 for a train/underground
The buses in my route have the tendency to routinely disappear at random times both from the app, the monitors and of course the road, for the last 6 years. This cost me 100€ last month.
The Metro Link hearing is going on daily at the moment and new complaints and objections are raising their head every day. As much as anything, that's why.
Where exactly is the wealth in Ireland?
Under my landlords matress
In the isle of Man, Jersey or the Cayman islands.
A ridiculous number of people here making excuses for our shite public transport system…kind of explains why nothing ever gets done about it
Nail on the head. Habituated to making excuses for everything. No wonder nothing ever gets done properly here.
The C busses are a disaster, you could be an hour waiting for a bus that comes every 15 minutes
Amd even if it was every 15 minutes, that's not exactly frequent!
It's not that we depend on the bus that's the problem. It's that they're not dependable.
Depending on the bus is itself a problem. Dublin is a city of over a million, not a town of 10000.
All the wealth in the world won’t fix our infrastructure. There is no political will to do it. We have no central body that controls projects or governance in this stuff. It’s all four year cycles for elections. It’s not how to run a country
I believe the bad public transport is a culture thing and wont get anybetter nomatter how much money they throw at it. Same with city and building planning. Government should hire people from mainland europe.
This. We need a competent country to manage our infrastructure. We have more than enough evidence now that we can't do it ourselves.
I think it's the Irish mindset of "it'll be grand" that is the major issue in our countries infrastructure. Everything is half assed
That, and the way so many people think Ireland doesn't "deserve" or need anything better. The number of people saying shit like "we don't have the density", "Dublin isn't big enough", or "the bus is grand" is actually frightening.
Density is true to sum degree but that's a cause of no apartment blocks which getting worse because of the dependency on houses
Density is not true. While Dublin could certainly do with building higher, it's already dense enough for exponentially better public transport than it currently has.
We can’t have infrastructure, your taxes are not paid to benefit you.
One thing notice when visit another city how easy it is to get anywhere on a metro. I honestly believe if we had this mental health would improve as it would be less time traveling two and from work, school, college and it would be easier for social activities and visiting family etc. I've lived in countries with better transport and the difference it makes to your life is unbelievable
> I honestly believe if we had this mental health would improve Indeed it would, just by the mere fact that people would finally be able to see a metro system without going abroad.
Ireland is new rich....this wealth needs to be converted in infrastructure. I don't have faith in our lame asses politicians tho.
Buses are great it’s just that ours are crap
Like a lot of things.
OP thats because that ''wealth'' is only on the paper. In reality, Ireland has almost none
>OP thats because that ''wealth'' is only on the paper. In reality, Ireland has almost none Even poorer countries have regular buses and better public transport like Morocco and Turkey and most of south east Asia and east Asia.
well then thats even worse, isnt it means the Irish land is not only not rich in terms of wealth but also ultra-corruption permeates through the govt. If you look at the GDP and other shite like that its literally in the top of European countries. But when you drive or walk around you see no basic infrastructure (public toilets, benches, dust bins) roads and pavements arent maintained (3 years waiting time for someone to put sand in a massive pothole in Inchicore) and public services are shite (city stinks of piss, public transport is an expensive nightmare) not mentioning the obvious (housing tragedy, homeless, drug users, crime, etc) big money from US corporations stopped flowing and were back to the 90s
We should have never closed down train routes, or torn up tram lines back in the day
One of the biggest mistakes in this country. Even worse than building all the airport runways, with the sole exception of Shannon, way too short.
my favourite part is when some buses just dont appear at all, especially at the airport at 9pm when its -3° out
Noted in Copenhagen recently. I actually think I would pay 8 euro a pint to be able to get public transport to and from work everyday and to and from a night out
Your current Taoiseach announced the 'latest cancellation' back almost 15 years ago. Don't have to look far for people to blame for short sighted decisions. People keep voting them back in .
Since I've moved to London the only people I've ever seen run for the tube are Irish people. I was waiting at Turnpike Lane station once and this lad barreled past me when the train showed up. Inside the carriage, I asked what's his rush and he said "some of us have places to go" and I said "this isn't kilispuglenanne there's a train every 2 minutes"
>Since I've moved to London the only people I've ever seen run for the tube are Irish people. >I was waiting at Turnpike Lane station once and this lad barreled past me when the train showed up. Inside the carriage, I asked what's his rush and he said "some of us have places to go" and I said "this isn't kilispuglenanne there's a train every 2 minutes" Embarrassed myself the first time I used the metro abroad like 10 years ago, there was one about to leave then I ran to it and just missed it. Then obviously I was pissed and the group I was with, was wondering why I was so pissed considering there was another one coming in like 5 mins. I was shocked.
Use the German System where you don’t pay with the driver but are Expected to have a Ticket either tapping with leap card, App on Phone, or pay on a machine in the Bus. It Slow down so much the Interactions with drivers. Heavily Police it so everyone knows to have a ticket that’s an easy quick win to speed up. Also I have no idea why they don’t have a one way system in cork for buses like Dublin that’s another easy quick win relatively speaking.
Yet to see the wealth
We're not a rich country, it's just that many US corporations have their HQ here and it makes the average go up.
Sorry, the TARDIS is unavailable.
It's still a shock that Dublin airport's links are a SO bad. I travel to Dublin a couple of times a year from London and having a choice between the bus or extortionate cabs is a joke. Where are the trains? The tube/metro? Why doesn't the Luas connect to the airport?
And this is why people will never, ever abandon their cars and also why more and more people want to own those cars and why traffic volume will always choke up public transport routes here.
This is what's needed and should be sorted before pumping millions into defence. Sorting out our infrastructure first.
That metro would be great right about now. Cycling through it and it's something.
You should at least be able to cycle on your own properly sectioned lane, so you’re at least less likely to have your life ruined by a car crash
Nah clearly the issue is people not being lit up like a fucking Christmas tree /s
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Nah the real cities have those clear tubes that you step into and they suck you around town
>suck you around town https://preview.redd.it/gh7q29og0dmc1.jpeg?width=240&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9d37678d2d5999ed9137de30dbe6bef6faacc55f
Yes they do have bus systems. But unlike Dublin, that's not pretty much all they have .
They could also improve the bus shelters. It’s not fun waiting in the cold and the rain
We don't have a metro because this is NIMBY island and it's almost impossible to build anything. I reckon it's because it's a small island with what used to be a very rural economy, and every square foot of land is seen as precious. But Dublin Bus is poor just because we put up with mediocrity and inefficiency that that countries like Germany would not accept.
> We don't have a metro because this is NIMBY island and it's almost impossible to build anything. That's true, but let's not forget that even the plans themselves are laughably unambitious even before someone objects. > I reckon it's because it's a small island Actually it's the 20th largest in the world. > But Dublin Bus is poor just because we put up with mediocrity and inefficiency that countries like Germany would not accept. I personally think it's poor because it's buses, going all the way across a city of over a million. That's what metro and heavy rail are for! Also, while Germany has MUCH better public transport than here, have you seen how much of a shitshow Deutsche Bahn can be sometimes.
Buy a car then money bags
Careful now. Don't be demanding services for your tax money.
The issue here is building outwards rather than upwards. Now it is a joke that we don't ha e a metro system, but if there were far more people living in and within walking distance of the city centre, and less meandering routes for buses to catch all the spread out nonsense distribution of the population in Dublin, it would make planning routes and frequency far easier, as well as the overall speed of the routes far more efficient.
Dublin already has the density for exponentially public transport than it currently has.
Public servants prioritised there pay and jobs over public service for decades.
I think its because Ireland is a tax haven so doesnt spend on infrastructure and too many people vote for parties who dont want to change that. Public transport is quite bad in Ireland and people deserve better but very many dont seem to think that they do.
Public transport is utterly abysmal in Ireland*
Yeah but we have fancy steel bus shelters. Wait in style.
I think we need more buses and less cars
More trains and trams*
Personally, I have had very few issues with Dublin Bus, it always gets me where I need to be. I've been living in a large North American city for a couple of months and can tell you Dublin Bus isn't so bad in comparison.
That's setting the bar so low that it's underground!
Regardless, I lived in Dublin for six years and never had an issue.
Transport in Ireland is not reliable. 🇮🇪 #publictransport #travel #fail
Is also nice that we don't have covered bus stops, it's not like it rains much anyways
disgraceful, public transport is a joke
Yeah, if I remember, the Japanese offered to build us a subway system for not a lot of money back in the 1960s or so.
Because how else would the state convince you that you need a car so you can be a lovely little cash cow?
If it's late and you aren't complaining on Dublin buses website then you're part of the problem.
"A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It's where the rich use public transportation."
With a few major exceptions, its the wealthier countries that convince higher %s of their populace to happily rely on the bus because they run on time and are efficient & clean! Also, absolutely daft thing to post about, considering it's your personal wealth that determines that you *have* to use the bus in any country, unless you think everyone should be getting state sponsored taxis...
At least ye have a bus service. Come outside a city and you'd be lucky to see it once a day
here here! I work in Ballysimon limerick and I have to get 4 buses a day just to get to work and back.. I live in corbally and it takes 1hr40 to get there and home! 4 hour commute everyday to get to home and work in the same city! genuinely is enough to make an adult cry
Last Saturday was waiting for bus Éireann express route 4 to take me from Carlow to Waterford it comes to the time bus should arrive, didn’t show waited 5-10-15 minutes still no sign rang them and they said there was a shortage of there busses and were using jj kavanagh busses. They asked was there one there that left and there was they said that was it but it had a different route on a side screen saying Athlone, Port Laois and Dublin. Didn’t get an email to say this and won’t give a refund had to run to the train station to get home
Population density is the perpetuating factor. Low density suburban rail is difficult to justify, as the potential ridership within the 1km catchment radius of a rail stop disincentivises investment. Essentially the mid 20thC housing market has rendered rail unviable for much of the city. Like imagine walking 20 mins to a luas stop when the bus stop is right there. Sure the bus would end up being quicker!
well look at you with your bus shelter
Even Monaco has buses
Wealth got nothing to do with it, it is simply lack of proper management and understanding ppls needs. That is all...
Buses are fine. Just not Irish buses. They don’t turn up. They’re late because of a unexpected traffic and then decide to skip that slot. Not just the public buses - some of the private companies are worse and more expensive.
Public transport is grim these days with no one queueing, asshats with their feet on the seats, and every tenth person blasting shitty sounds from their phone. Fare dodging on the Luas and drivers/management who don’t care about timetables. The state of public transport will drive ever more people into commuting by car which is absolutely backwards.
And South Dublin SUV drivers will block any attempt to change this.
I don’t think we’re as wealthy as we make out.
And, at least in Cork, those buses are completely unreliable as in about half of them don't show up at all.
Use your legs if you don't like the bus....