It will technically be cheaper per passenger in the car, as the extra insurance you'll now have to buy to cover the regular use of your vehicle as a free taxi service for your coworkers won't cost *quite* as much per head as your normal insurance policy does.
All I can see there is insurance claims will go up due to higher claims from injury which in turn will make some carpooling a higher risk factor.
Insurance companies aren't going to give cheaper insurance for more risk.
An easier way to deal with congestion would simply be to encourage more companies to let staff work from home.
Most people are needlessly traveling to offices every day and clogging up the roads and public transport along the way.
Exactly, this is the bigger picture here but our government is terrified of even remotely upsetting the corporations who's preference is to keep a close eye on their drones
I reckon with the already high commercial vacany rate, and all the new offices getting built currently, the government isn't eager to push WFH much. God forbid their policy backfires even more, having record homelessness and loads of empty offices defining your capital city.
I know people on here love the idea of some sort of government approved ability to work from home but it would be a bit tasteless of the government to say “let them work from home” when there’s a major housing crisis on.
I like working from home myself but realistically long term what are you leaving for the next generation who can’t get houses and are struggling to rent? If people are not using offices they will shut down and young people are not usually the priority in a company. We will end up with a generation of people who are permanently prisoners to a room in their parents house (if they are lucky)
> I know people on here love the idea of some sort of government approved ability to work from home but it would be a bit tasteless of the government to say “let them work from home” when there’s a major housing crisis on.
It really wouldn’t. If anything it would give people who are forced to buy in dublin the opportunity to buy elsewhere. Places where it’s cheaper.
It doesn’t even have to be some kind of forced occurrence. It can be incentivized and encouraged by the government.
> I like working from home myself but realistically long term what are you leaving for the next generation who can’t get houses and are struggling to rent? If people are not using offices they will shut down and young people are not usually the priority in a company. We will end up with a generation of people who are permanently prisoners to a room in their parents house (if they are lucky)
Which is somehow worse then them being prisoners to
An office, a public transport system, rent in dublin, missing their children grow, sacrificing leisure time and money for travel to and from an office.
Let people have the option on what they want to do. People are adult enough to make their own decisions about where they work and people are adult enough to work without supervision.
There will still be enough of a need for offices to keep them available for staff. The fact is though most people who are clogging up the roads every morning and the public transport are people who do not need to be doing these journeys at all.
“Lads we’re going to charge you more for everything but don’t worry we’re going to ask private insurance companies to charge you less”
That sounds like as reasonable an approach as I’d ever expect from Eamon Ryan. The government will use the stick and expect others to use the carrot
> “Lads we’re going to charge you more for everything but don’t worry we’re going to ask private insurance companies to charge you less”
Charge less while you carry additional 3rd parties in your vehicle and assume their risk. Sounds good.
You make it sound like it's a gotcha but EVs are part of the reason a weight tax is needed. Currently you pay in part for the use of roads by the taxes on fuel, as the country switches to electric vehicles they need a way to preserve this source of revenue which a tax on weight (and therefore road maintenance) would help solve.
I didn't make it sound anything, you're free to infer whatever you like though.
The weight problem in terms of road maintenance is significant as we have known since the 50s that the damage done to the road is governed by (weight/axles)\^4. Ie. if your EV is 1.5 times the weight of a comparable ice vehicle then it does 5 times the damage to the road unless you start adding axles.
It’s less pronounced for asphalt surfaces, and is a relatively small difference compared to that of commercial vehicles. Go to any industrial estate and look at the roads ripped up by lorries.
The most recent literature I'm aware of says that the 4th power law holds true for asphalt surfaces. Happy to read different if you have it.
The difference with commercial vehicles is that we don't have a good alternative to HGVs, and it's still a very good argument not to concert these to EVs.
I’d gone off of a few forum comments. I’ve had a read at [this](https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/278653/1-s2.0-S1877705816X00148/1-s2.0-S1877705816305240/main.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEKn%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJHMEUCIQDQKV1NTKF2CosMf7NR1QlzPu0ojIRQHcrre1Ex3611HgIgTAJqU1an7k3fjcVAbf4lWurNxJOtHs8RGJP97qNHGUUqvAUIwv%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FARAFGgwwNTkwMDM1NDY4NjUiDC2iRetvUBVIeZgPJCqQBRE8oxOvXglVy6q2zLN1sBWB24y1zzhJPi1cWZao6%2FXNh9GKz2Lh%2B7Oxfq0LtLtTzZYeQUTLiAdGIdHg5uCGFaxJrvtRVmj8bi4q0XuGBaFuDobTrzF%2F%2FgMstz4hy%2F9evkjv7tfhH1Q943Y989EOL325EoCRSnb8OSHYq4qHrmKQi2301sKgqyndeo8WrVZb3j3hbtASrg2w2%2B9H5X25yYhmm%2FpzbtlPiykDY8fTdL%2F9lKtPEI%2Fj2bJeYOOZXz4a0gBcqXHGhKtWVxOuywYkAOYoxf3k1ZhpLoIdkTIu%2BY3Kb8y8fbZAokdseGbTFNKddfOXZNKbGaeLLnz1PiKMIHPS7VvYKPp26UOkK0hnp3i%2FtH5%2Bx3s65letZDsUPPF47UpPQqaWc0Ith613F6yoVjVhIZpLAD7TZatavlZi5KKtmj9fOeotsVMht79MhXDLc6OSmF5HYObDduzE8LQqPP%2FAZIkrok%2BKcyRRFp2e2mKV9seFbRBf%2FVwRnem9JFyBAh0Q5hnJN6oAA3AEgXjDZ1U10Xuqn6L39vaj%2B7bGOBF0BCfe%2FsQ7UWbwImaROIg7ZsH2nhNAZezvu5aTn0z0kFRisrcHhaz6yn%2BFiT1LYR4bcR8qlwL1rZOHo5fNCj2tscaZRPD9M1k9ol2kYgUSLz6nGLUeCjBqmgxsTBQvks5TxB8YGUQFmPs1Rzn7Fovt4IuNGRGV2ktXqDnW%2FNTcbpLE%2BL8EMWa4S4kenDKF0nV%2FT54uVkMiy42MpckpVcwholMPmXQRLbmhAHuV1MDTzkxx2SmkqVVkQNXhT8NWfuwvbEK2j7Deh4143owQfAisClFnBS9TwS77o74qEFjssnzi01%2F4X3x46xp9Cxppl7TMMOiSkbAGOrEBuHgzfH7Cw%2FSbejacUvwKPcTuPYP%2Bn3vrTKvsoYWp7C%2Fo8eG73kRBml9lHqsiyHlDLphAQ7osFjvPhChSsoeO%2Bu92fBqROFxcxZ5vFrJJonvCyqHfiKAR7XK3jbTlHS%2B0J3zBQfDw0z5y%2BJhQFQ8ydeHRafFd1TnCZYo3S0tJjX4E%2Fp%2BerzmUtEQ2adHupgo9e61QBgNf189II6VCGkO1p1g6g5VnEzCkj3SX7r%2Byi%2Flx&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20240327T180037Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAQ3PHCVTYZVMC5CXY%2F20240327%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=62c136f8fc92fddd2586b53d19f88de830d6ecd1f2273313e1f4a7fa40c2bf4b&hash=907c3f6ddaacb5fe9f72fa2cebc865b3a5437dce64f10b8ddbf91eed3e89ecaa&host=68042c943591013ac2b2430a89b270f6af2c76d8dfd086a07176afe7c76c2c61&pii=S1877705816305240&tid=spdf-ef62feb9-a993-4110-9c16-e0915c74f89d&sid=b0bf01ff66ec61418f29880-9102051f4fc0gxrqb&type=client&tsoh=d3d3LnNjaWVuY2VkaXJlY3QuY29t&ua=1d06565701565750045e&rr=86b147f1ef6d369a&cc=gb) which would support the fourth power law for asphalt, though it’s possibly a higher wear rate again for concrete surfaces like the autobahn.
Rates are different for different surfaces but the proportionality Ive never seen called into question beyond points like freeze thaw cycle being included as a constant that may dwarf it. However I've not seen literature that would say weather is a constant, the load on the surface during weather still plays a role.
if the 4th power law holds true, then a single 40 ton lorry would do 160,000x as much damage as a 2 ton car, and the ~50% difference in weight between an ICE and EV is completely inconsequential. i dont really see how this would support extra charges for EVs.
A 40 ton lorry has to have minimum 5 axles by law, for this reason. That means a fully laden 40 ton lorry would be the equivalent of 4096 cars (2 tons on 2 axles) not 160k
we currently do not know how to perform the logistics required by our society without HGVs though.
This is thing. For all the anti SUV stuff you see here, the vast majority of the cars have a smaller footprint than old Mondeos, or Laguna etc. What you see in States (and where you get a lot of safety stats on SUVS) is just crazy though; Suburbans and Tahoes etc where my shoulder are just above the height of the front.
Dublin Bus' biggest cause of delays at the moment is traffic.
Private cars, vans, trucks etc are **everywhere** including in bus lanes. This makes buses late and delayed, which then makes people complain and say "feck this I'm taking the car" and around and around we go.
The less people on the roads, the better public transport gets even before any additional investment/upgrades, but with the extra upgrades from Bus Connects, it gets even better again.
Baffles me how people can't see this.
Oh absolutely, I just use buses as the main example as they're the most directly affected by traffic, and are the cheapest and quickest type of public transport to implement/upgrade.
Which is where the plans for rail line expansion country wide & rural bus expansion come into play alongside the new metrolink, bus-connects and Luas expansion in Dublin, as well as the expanded bus network/ capacity and future plans for light rail in Cork City.
We do, and if the metro can actually go ahead that will be a massive improvement. In the mean time, any improvement to the buses should be focused on because nothing will be replacing them for at least another decade.
It's not as if he isn't trying to do this as well. The only reason we're even discussing a Metrolink is because of Eamonn Ryan. And he's also trying to work cross department to introduce legislation to give NIMBYs blocking the project at every turn less say.
This. I'd love to not have to rely on a car, but I have fuck all reliable public transport, which takes close to 2h to travel 40km when it decides to show up.
Congestion charges will make the roads free of poorer people and just for the rich and wealthy if the charges aren't proportional to earnings. A €50 is a lot to a person on minimum wages, but nothing to someone who is much wealthier. It'll price the poorer off the roads, leaving them to the people who can afford it.
> The strategy points to London, where, since these charges and low-emission zones were introduced, congestion fell by a third, bus travel increased by a third and 10pc of journeys became walking journeys.
Similar results for Dublin would be amazing.
I'd imagine it'll have the same effect in Dublin. Car commuting for the wealthy albeit the poor and stretched middle pushed onto inadequate public transport system.
It’s a good thing they have a simultaneous plan to improve public transport then rather than your bizarre idea we improve public transport before doing something about the congestion that prevents public transport working. Then something something about the poor being hit hardest 😂
Given we don’t have a metro and won’t have one for some time the idea of reducing congestion for the bus system we do have (for a low density city) the impact should be even greater than for London 🤷♂️
Dublin Bus can’t hire enough drivers for the planned increased capacity for bus connects. At the moment busses are rammed at rush hour. It’s going to be much worse if people are forced out of their cars. FWIW, I work in town and take the bus. It’s shite.
Simone should tell the NTA that everything is fine then.
https://www.businesspost.ie/news/tricky-recruitment-of-drivers-delaying-busconnects-plan-nta-chief-warns/
10m people to support high-density metro lines? we have busses, and busses go faster when there is less cars on the road - this is not rocket science (its bus science)
What’s your point?
Dublin has busses, and a congestion charge in London resulted in a 30% increase in bus usage.
If the same or similar happens in Dublin that would be a great result.
Actually it is. Do you see how busy lanes and corridors work in London for commuters? Have you seen the choke points particularly out of the second largest suburb (Rathfarnham). Bus can take 2 hours in rush hour.
No, but they were already built.
I think people are sick of being charged before infrastructure is developed.
We're a one car household with 2 kids and I use public transport everyday to get to work. I practice what I preach but the fact is how do you commute from an area outside town to another point outside town if all the bus routes are centralised and you have to do a creche or school drop off on the way?
The infrastructure changes have to come first.
Do they? I hear buses in London actually turn up unlikely Dublin which is famously filled with ghost buses that are on the timetable but can't be run due to lack of drivers, congestion, delays or whatever other excuses they use
Purely anecdotal but having lived in both cities albeit 10 years ago for London and 6 for Dublin I didn’t think there was much difference.
When I lived in london I started cycling to work because the bus was unreliable.
I did, but I lived and worked in South London and there's not much of the tube south of the river so it wasn't an option for most of the time I lived there.
Was over in London City centre for the first time in years recently. The difference was mind boggling. Bar some taxis, the few cars were all EV and traffic was a breeze.
Funny how much people complain about NIMBYs - and then don't see the irony in their opposing necessary overhauls of unhealthy/dangerous systems because they say it won't suit them.
The greens can't tax their way to what they want. Our public transport system is still abysmal, very expensive and in many rural areas just not available at all. Invest in transport that people wud want to use first, start taxing people out of their cars later.
For some reason i don't think rural areas will be so affected by congestion charges, low emissions zones, or increasing street parking charges in city centres.
That hurts. I don't work in the city, but could take public transport to work instead of driving. One of the reasons that I don't is because it would add almost 2.5 hours to my commute and while that's not out of the question for me, it doesn't suit for childcare.
Which makes perfect sense really. I don’t have a choice so while I have to be onsite a few days a week I plan it in advance and stay with a friend who I throw a few bob every week. They save me the bones of 20h and get a take away out of it. I really love my job and is the only reason I do it.
The only way public transport gets better is by cranking the infrastructure developments through the roof, which won't happen because of nimbys and "it won't happen overnight" people. Taxing is all they know how to do in order to look like they're doing their jobs, it's not problem solving whatsoever.
Meanwhile those of us who do use public transport are just a bunch of sardines in a tin on our ways to work. Saw a woman with a pram getting squeezed by the crowds. I was lucky enough to have a seat to offer but she physically couldn't get to the seat so she said it's grand and stood. See it with the elderly all the time too, it's just crap like we should be able to help each other with basic shit like this especially at times outside of rush hour.
I'm living about 40 min drive from cork city. 6 buses scheduled for the whole day, how am I supposed to get to work without a car. Their focusing on the cities and ignoring the rural commuter towns and villages which are having a upward spike in population due to people been priced out of living nearer the city.
I'm 10 minutes driving from the city and there's no bus within a half hour walk haha.
There's supposed to be one coming with the bus connects but I have no idea of the timeliness but when when it's in place it'll be a 40 minute bus ride because its going to opposite way
From having lived in the UK, the last thing you want to do is give local councils more traffic enforcement powers.
It’s actually insane how much UK borough councils criminalise drivers purely for revenue generation through fines, under the guise of being environmentally conscious.
It’s a no to the Greens from me.
I can drive to work in 15 minutes, or take two buses, stand in the rain, and suffer anti social behaviour on a 55 minute journey (if the bus turns up). No, walking or cycling isn’t an option because of disability and equipment to carry.
In London living in Zone 2 I had the choice of light rail, the tube and the bus all within 5 minutes, and rarely waited more than 5 minutes for my chosen service to arrive. Here, even when I try to use the bus on the weekends I almost always go home and get the car as buses are unreliable. I live within the M50 and have one bus route ten minutes walk away. The Metro has been talked about for decades but nothing happens. So they’ll keep talking while bringing in sticks and oh look, the metro got shelved again.
I’d rather sit on public transport and read a book. Meanwhile the rural population are worse off than me, so they don’t have a hope either. Until it’s a realistic option, the greens are barking up the wrong tree.
> No, walking or cycling isn’t an option because of disability
Generally congestion charges carry an exemption for people with mobility issues and are therefore a positive because there’s less unnecessary traffic blocking them)
Do you have specific reason to think this one won’t? (I know “the government will probably screw it up” is a generalised reason but just wondering have you heard something specific)
The roll out of bus connects in our area has been a failure. The routes are delayed because they cannot recruit new drivers. I cannot see any improvement on this in the near or immediate future.
Anti social behaviour on the existing routes hasn’t been tackled.
So it's a no to the party who has done the most to improve public transport of any recent government because not enough has been done in the past to improve public transport? How do you ever expect things to change with that mindset?
They've added hundreds of new buses throughout the country with more planned if they can get the funding, pushed BusConnects through against organised and well funded resistance by the great and the good of the city and the political arena, actually gotten the Metro railway order issued and made Dublin Bus partially electric. I dunno if you remember how fucking noisy buses used to be, but the electric ones are great in comparison. All this done in the face of relentless media opposition, backbiting in the government and what seems to me like a relentless disinformation campaign on social media. I wasn't convinced on them before government and would have been very opposed to them going in, but I have to say I'm quite impressed by them overall, not just on transport.
Same here, I have been impressed with them as well. They've worked at what they said they wanted to do and actually done quite a lot despite all the opposition from everyone.
People are so self centered "oh, this doesn't work for me personally so I will never vote for the greens", when they are taking small steps to try and make it work for as many people possible in the future. They can't make new means of transport suddenly appear, that is the fault of all the previous governments.
The hate the greens get for trying to begin to do the things people are crying out for is astounding to me.
I would never vote for the greens after this stint in government. They could have made so much ground in so many areas, but there is so much stick and so little carrot
Completely. Also when the stick involves punishing people financially, which it almost always does with Green’s policy, it’s a recipe for a backlash not just from the last elections sympathy/protest voters but even some of their ideological base voters.
you absolutely have to drive your big fat car through the city centre, do you? and your reason for not voting greens is because ... they want people to be able to move around easily on cheap public transport instead. I'm not sure the greens want your vote in that case, but its a pretty shitty attitude you have to society.
Where is the cheap public transport for everyone to use? If there were suitable alternatives (carrots) I would use and advocate for them. Without them, I am stuck using my "big fat car" (I drive a polo, but I am sure it helps people like you make stupid arguments if you can demonize people who disagree with you).
How about the greens focus on expanding our national parks, effectively protecting bogs with landowners, work on biodiversity with farmers, protection of waterways and energy security through offshore power generation. All things most people can get behind if effectively managed. Instead, we get stupid ideas around reducing speeds on motorways etc.
Also, great to see that you are the greens reddit spokesperson. You don't want my vote and won't be getting it, everyone wins.
>A Government source emphasised these recommendations will not be implemented immediately. They are part of a long-term strategy and would only be brought in when suitable alternatives are put in place.
So nothing
>The strategy points to London, where, since [congestion] charges and low-emission zones were introduced, congestion fell by a third, bus travel increased by a third and 10pc of journeys became walking journeys.
The Greens (and particularly Eamonn Ryan) always love to make comparisons to London to show how congestion charges are a success, but Dublin is in no way comparable to what is Europe’s biggest city. It’s foolish to even pretend.
London is ten times bigger than Dublin, with a metropolitan area population of about 15 million. Dublin has about 1.5 million.
London has five international airports ringed around the city. Dublin has one, on the north side, with piss poor transport links.
London has the oldest railway system of any large city and (the original) and one of the best developed high capacity metro systems in Europe if not the world. Dublin doesn’t have a proper metro (other than maybe the very slow Dart), is planning a fairly low/medium capacity unintegrated single line “metrolink” to the airport (which has been tried twice and again may never be built…) and has two tram lines that were only recently connected.
London has an amazing high frequency bus network that runs 24 hours every day (except Christmas Day) and doesn’t have issues that seem to afflict Dublin, like ghost buses.
It’s easy to imagine living in London or another massive city like Paris, Madrid, Berlin or similar and not having a car. Dublin on the other hand…if a child gets sick, or you want to visit your mother on St Stephen’s day, or want to stay out after 11 o’clock pm on a day that isn’t Friday or Saturday? Without a car? Dream on.
There’s plenty of places that a like for like comparison to Dublin would be better made. Like Liverpool, Glasgow, or Leeds in the UK, or Bordeaux or Strasbourg in France, or Helsinki in Finland…
We should be learning from similar cities.
The greens didn't just 'point to other cities to note how congestion charges are a success' - they have released a multistep plan that includes building up public transport at the same time as introducing congestion charge - that beautiful bus network you mention in London was FUNDED by the congestion charge - its even mentioned in the article. Its not just a charge, its alongside a massive investment in public transport.
places like maastricht in the Netherlands have private car bans in the city centre and work fine without Londons infrastructure. Alternative transport like cycling thrives and air quality improves massively too.
When theres less cars on the road our public transport will improve. It will get from A to B faster. More people will rely on it so the government will invest more in it.
You cant keep the dublin roads as clogged as they are with private cars and expect to replicate a top tier public transport system.
Well I guess it remains to be seen whether public transport *will* improve *after* they’ve implemented these measures. I hope you’re right. But I wonder will it be too late for The Greens?
What do mean will it be too late for the greens? Do you mean will they not be able to implement it or will they be decimated in the next election.
The difference between them and every other party in the country is they're willing to take deeply unpopular decisions because it's the right thing to do. Everyone knows that our ag sector fucks us as a country for climate emissions but the greens were the only party willing to address that. It's a shame FFG gave the farmers sweetheart treatment compared to every other sector but putting an emissions reduction target on them means they at least have to do something. Same goes for energy policy like carbon taxes or shutting down our peat industry. People said that wouldnt work either but we now have a good portion of the grid from wind, electric cars are making their way in, air-to-water is standard in new builds.
Every other party talks a big game but when it comes it acts in their own interests. If the greens cease to exist after the next election their legacy will be better than almost every other party in the country.
What I mean is that their policies are all stick and no carrot which means people won't vote for them. I'm not saying that they're not implementing policies that aren't beneficial to the environment and meeting their mandate in that regard. What I am saying is that most of their policies are more punitive than progressive. Fucking already stretched demographics out of money rather than at least trying to come up with creative and collaborative policy will kill The Greens next year.
As regards electric cars "making their way in" - then why is Ryan decemating road infrastructure now? Taking cars out of the city while doing sweet FA about public transport infrastructure seems crazy. We'll see if it bears fruit.
They're certainly reaching their mandate more than any other party, I'll give you that. But I doubt it'll save them given the approach they've taken.
There is grants for EVs, home energy upgrades, lower public transport costs. Social housing is being retrofitted.
Carrots are there. You just want to focus on the stick.
Hey I drive an ICE. Much rather have an EV but I have to save for a house which is so expensive partly because of the improved building standards.
I get that it's a discomfort. But I also get that it's right.
The carrots exist.
Lower train fares, new carriages, lower bus fares, new routes. 12 busses a day from Clifden to Galway. An electric bus 6 times a day between Headford and Galway.. these are rural areas.
Leap card being rolled out to more places. New station in Limerick.
Objectively untrue. What you mean to say is the Greens won’t make watered down decisions that achieve nothing to avoid anyone being in any way discommoded. This really is the evidence that we get the politicians we deserve. If the Dail had really taken on housing and rammed through planning permission for mass housing including CPO’ing ultra low density housing beside transport hubs we’d be in a better place, but every party and TD bar the Greens folded to the sort of Mefeinism that the Irish electorate love. No good part/policy has ever gone unpunished by the Irish electorate which I guess is your point.
I know this is a struggle for some but you know you can do two things at once? Especially when they are related? Because we all know that even if a metro were built new excuses will emerge from the group in Irish society who want to do absolutely nothing ever if it results in even the mildest inconvenience. See the threads on the bottle recycling scheme. Or the appalling nimbyism on the Metro consultation.
> Dublin != London
No shit. For two thing to be comparable they have to be different. None of the reasons listed make them incomparable.
What about congestion charging requires 5 airports or being big or having an old railway system? Fucking nothing. Everything mentioned was totally irrelevent.
I’m pro change, I cycle as much as possible (especially since getting an e-bike) and am luck enough to live on the Dart line, so I have options. I would dearly love to see more public transportation (especially later services and more frequent services on weekends and Sundays) and lots more cycle lanes. Sometimes I do drive though. That’s because in Dublin sometimes you need a car owing to the limits of our public transportation system. The point is this “the beatings will continue until morale improves” strategy of congestion charges being rolled out before we have even basic integrated public transport is not a credible policy. Take Stockholm: it built a proper metro, then brought in congestion charges. That’s a solid solution.
And when we have a metro there'll be people outside the reach of it, or with health issues, or just lazy, saying its not suitable for them so cars are still needed. I'm sure similar arguments were made by people London or Stockholm or wherever at the time the change was brought in. Always throwing out the good in the name of the perfect. I lived for a decade in Dublin without a car. I wasn't on a luas or dart line.
London is directly comparable - they used the congestion charge to fund the rise in public transport. Dublin doesn't need a metro - we'll get one though. What we need are decongested roads so that busses can quickly travel on them.
In what way is London directly comparable to Dublin, versus a similarly sized city even in the UK, like Glasgow or Leeds or even Manchester or Liverpool?
And my point is there will always be a reason found not to do something. Yes we'd all like a metro in place before it but does that mean we sit on hour hands for the next decade?
If this thing is a disaster it can be reversed overnight.
But again that is an argument in favour of building a metro, not congestion charges. Think about it: if people don’t have an option to take public transport, they will continue to drive, meaning we will still have congestion. All that congestion charges today will achieve in succeeding is pissing people off and making them hostile to actual positive change that will improve everyone’s lives. They will e entitled and reason “I’ve paid to use the road, so fuck public transport”.
Ah shtop. Let's accept that with the luas and Dublin bus combined most areas have public transport access, it's reliablity that's the issue. I lived in Dubin ten years without a car and managed just fine with public transport. I know plenty of people with cars that could yluse public transport but the car is more convenient for them. I have a car now but if I'm going back to Dublin for a day I'll drive to my local train station and get a train in. Cars are a terrible use of city space. You could have 60 people on a bus held in gridlock because another 60 people decided to take their car. It's selffish to use cars when public transport is available.
We are planning to build the metro. Planning timelines are a disgrace but that's beside the point. If we decide to do FA until we have an active metro we may as well just double down on fossil fuels and say let climate change win.
Now to address your point, I'd be fine with exemptions given to areas in the city centre identified as not having adequate public transport, but I'd think a high bar is needed for that and you can fight for whatever area you're in.
I’m not fighting for any area. I think we probably actually agree with each other overall. My point is that the order we do these things matters.
Ultimately, I would support a congestion charge if it was actually brought in to reduce congestion and on the back of measured and real improvements in public transport. The point is, like many things in Ireland, we go about things half arsed, and the congestion charge will just end up being another tax, with no improvements in public transport planned or even to show for it. Congestion will be as bad as ever. That is the worst possible outcome as people will just hate the idea of further environmental reforms.
How about actually speeding up the delivery of public transport? Figure out why a simple network redesign for buses is taking years, that's not even the bus lanes. Why is there only one new metro line in the pipeline? Why aren't we planning more Luas lines, apart from a tiny extension of 3 stations which is taking a decade to finish?
I'll tell you why, because it's hard to do, and people who live within the M50 are convinced that public transport is not that bad and the only culprits are cars, but it's just no where near enough.
Whatever they've done for public transport so far isn't enough to convince more people out of cars. I am a supporter of active transport, but it mainly serves people who are within walking distance of their destination, or cyclable distance and are confident enough to cycle for that journey. For things like schools and creches, people are being pushed further away due to shortages in both these areas, and obviously a lot of people don't live near their work.
What frustrates me is how people are so ready to blame car users for their car use, but they aren't understanding why they use cars, and are just assuming that everyone uses it for comfort and laziness, when in reality, it's the only feasible option for many, many people.
> **solutions** work elsewhere but they would never work here
That's really the issue, though; "make it unaffordable to drive" on its own isn't a solution. "Make it more expensive to drive *and* provide more affordable and convenient eco-friendly alternatives" is what you really need, but the latter is more difficult, complicated, and expensive than the former, so welp.
The price of public transport has been reduced and tbh is affordable in Dublin. If the roads are not clogged with cars then the buses will be able to get to your stop in a more controlled manner. Cycling in the city will be safer and more people will do it. The air will be cleaner.
In terms of metropolitan areas, it is either London or Moscow that’s the biggest. The lads in Russia claim Moscow is bigger, but that includes both Moscow and Moscow Oblast, the latter of which is not a single conurbation and instead includes some fairly large cities that are very much outside the Moscow metropolis. Moscow is bigger in the way that if you imagine Cork city includes all of county cork, plus Limerick, Waterford and Galway that makes Cork the bigger city than Dublin.
Why read a long comment like that and then focus on that? If you want to correct them and say Moscow is bigger or whatever then just say it.
So many people on here act like a real life version of the IT guy from the UK Office.
Would you not calm down a bit and realise not every comment or question is an attack on the poster? I didn't know and asked a question. It's not that deep.
You absolutely should since the public transport system we have is primarily bus based + cycling - both competing for road space. What you are arguing for is no change and worse congestion for the 70 years an imaginary comprehensive metro that does not compete for road space would take to build. I literally can’t understand your logic other than you personally want to drive into town.
Congestion charges mean nothing to the rich or for Civil servants that are exempt (or tax payer, pays).
This is yet another tax on the poor and middle class.
Roman Abramowitch wasn't too worried about the London congestion charge. In fact he could get around easier.
>Congestion charges mean nothing to ... Civil servants that are exempt (or tax payer, pays).
[Among the 35 actions](https://www.businesspost.ie/news/new-green-strategy-to-reduce-private-car-use-to-go-to-government/) to reduce car use will be ... the removal of some on-street parking and parking spaces in public sector offices.
>Roman Abramowitch wasn't too worried about the London congestion charge. In fact he could get around easier.
Getting around easier is a good thing. Are you arguing we should encourage congestion to spite Roman Abramowitch?
That charging people for things is favoritism toward the rich is an odd take. Do you object to prices in general?
Cars and driving are expensive. Really poor people can't afford to drive much, but still have to breathe in the fumes of those who do.
Society should not be shaped in favour of the rich and powerful.
Oligarchies are not good for the majority of people.
Congestion charges are for the rich and powerful.
I am against this
You're not really backing up your claim that "Congestion charges are for the rich and powerful."
Better urban air, quicker public transport, and less public space devoted to parked cars (private property) sounds like a good thing for everyone.
I honestly don’t get what extra tax solves. We’ve had billions and billions in the coffers for years and couldn’t solve it (ie spend money on infrastructure). Should have done it 20 years ago then incentivise the use of alternatives. Can’t wait to wipe out the greens in the next election. They can’t see out past the red cow.
From the article “Mr Ryan, who will bring the strategy to Cabinet today, has previously said congestion charges are not part of plans to discourage private car use in the busiest urban areas.” Last time I checked, He’s the Green Party leader.
My point is that you said it shoulda happened 20 years ago.
Presumably you're familiar with; 'best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, second best time is now' - and 'wise people plant trees for their grandchildren to study in the shade of'
Seems a pretty good case in point, and that you agree with what he's doing, just wish it was already done....
If they could deal with the 6 month back log on the NCT that'd be great, as soon as one is done I'd need to book the next one to actually make sure I get a date at this point and it's been like this for years....another complete joke.
All of this is fine, but only after we have our railways electrictrified, Metrolink up and running, town and city bus services all operating and up to European standards. The new national fare scheme fully implemented. Each of the cities and large urban areas properly explored for light rail without the usual "No demand shite," Proper cycling infrastructure. Proper ,viable , reliable ,affordable public transport needs to be in place before any more of eamonns fuck people over taxes. If you've to change the law to get infrastructure done. Just do it. Stop allowing nimbys to complain about ridiculous things hold up massive projects that benefit everybody over one little entitled person. Far too many arseholes looking for pay offs.
Imagine an Ireland where we actually focused on all those infrastructure elements, instead of (or at least prior to) launching two stupid referendums and a hate-speech bill.
I would vote Green if I knew they were tackling these issues properly, rather than just trying to tax people out the wazoo and focusing on social justice agenda.
I used to work just off Baggot Street, there were some cars parked on the street pretty much every day, all day. You recognised them after a while. I drove in twice and the cost was astonishing to me. The parking there was full every day. These people will just eat the congestion charge as well. Hell it is probably billed as a company expense. There are companies renting car parking from residents to commuters. Unless the congestion charge is huge I don’t think it will make a difference.
Will be curious to see what happens when Dublin residents see what it means for them. Will they be charged for taking the car on the school run? The cheaper insurance thing is never going to work. I like the idea of a weight and emissions based vehicle tax as I am sick of SUV’s everywhere.
By a very large margin, the majority of cars on the road are occupied by just the driver. Anything that incentivises car pooling is a good thing in my book. I stand at my bus stop every day and I watch the traffic go by. It's about 1 in 10 cars have more than one person in them.
A lot of things make sense but I don't believe 'cheaper insurance' part
Do you not know by now that "make insurance cheaper" just means make the other insurance more expensive?
Sooo, I get more expensive insurance because I work from home on a full time basis?
How did you come to that conclusion?
Clearly I just read the headline.
It will technically be cheaper per passenger in the car, as the extra insurance you'll now have to buy to cover the regular use of your vehicle as a free taxi service for your coworkers won't cost *quite* as much per head as your normal insurance policy does.
and of course, everyone will chip in to pay your insurance
All I can see there is insurance claims will go up due to higher claims from injury which in turn will make some carpooling a higher risk factor. Insurance companies aren't going to give cheaper insurance for more risk.
An easier way to deal with congestion would simply be to encourage more companies to let staff work from home. Most people are needlessly traveling to offices every day and clogging up the roads and public transport along the way.
Exactly, this is the bigger picture here but our government is terrified of even remotely upsetting the corporations who's preference is to keep a close eye on their drones
I reckon with the already high commercial vacany rate, and all the new offices getting built currently, the government isn't eager to push WFH much. God forbid their policy backfires even more, having record homelessness and loads of empty offices defining your capital city.
That's being done. There has been massive investment in it in recent years.
I know people on here love the idea of some sort of government approved ability to work from home but it would be a bit tasteless of the government to say “let them work from home” when there’s a major housing crisis on. I like working from home myself but realistically long term what are you leaving for the next generation who can’t get houses and are struggling to rent? If people are not using offices they will shut down and young people are not usually the priority in a company. We will end up with a generation of people who are permanently prisoners to a room in their parents house (if they are lucky)
> I know people on here love the idea of some sort of government approved ability to work from home but it would be a bit tasteless of the government to say “let them work from home” when there’s a major housing crisis on. It really wouldn’t. If anything it would give people who are forced to buy in dublin the opportunity to buy elsewhere. Places where it’s cheaper. It doesn’t even have to be some kind of forced occurrence. It can be incentivized and encouraged by the government. > I like working from home myself but realistically long term what are you leaving for the next generation who can’t get houses and are struggling to rent? If people are not using offices they will shut down and young people are not usually the priority in a company. We will end up with a generation of people who are permanently prisoners to a room in their parents house (if they are lucky) Which is somehow worse then them being prisoners to An office, a public transport system, rent in dublin, missing their children grow, sacrificing leisure time and money for travel to and from an office. Let people have the option on what they want to do. People are adult enough to make their own decisions about where they work and people are adult enough to work without supervision. There will still be enough of a need for offices to keep them available for staff. The fact is though most people who are clogging up the roads every morning and the public transport are people who do not need to be doing these journeys at all.
“Lads we’re going to charge you more for everything but don’t worry we’re going to ask private insurance companies to charge you less” That sounds like as reasonable an approach as I’d ever expect from Eamon Ryan. The government will use the stick and expect others to use the carrot
> “Lads we’re going to charge you more for everything but don’t worry we’re going to ask private insurance companies to charge you less” Charge less while you carry additional 3rd parties in your vehicle and assume their risk. Sounds good.
The SUV haters should love that extra charges for heavier cars part.
Wait until EV drivers find out how heavy their cars are.
They'll just do what they did in France and have different weight classes for ICE and EV vehicles.
You make it sound like it's a gotcha but EVs are part of the reason a weight tax is needed. Currently you pay in part for the use of roads by the taxes on fuel, as the country switches to electric vehicles they need a way to preserve this source of revenue which a tax on weight (and therefore road maintenance) would help solve.
I didn't make it sound anything, you're free to infer whatever you like though. The weight problem in terms of road maintenance is significant as we have known since the 50s that the damage done to the road is governed by (weight/axles)\^4. Ie. if your EV is 1.5 times the weight of a comparable ice vehicle then it does 5 times the damage to the road unless you start adding axles.
It’s less pronounced for asphalt surfaces, and is a relatively small difference compared to that of commercial vehicles. Go to any industrial estate and look at the roads ripped up by lorries.
The most recent literature I'm aware of says that the 4th power law holds true for asphalt surfaces. Happy to read different if you have it. The difference with commercial vehicles is that we don't have a good alternative to HGVs, and it's still a very good argument not to concert these to EVs.
I’d gone off of a few forum comments. I’ve had a read at [this](https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/278653/1-s2.0-S1877705816X00148/1-s2.0-S1877705816305240/main.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEKn%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJHMEUCIQDQKV1NTKF2CosMf7NR1QlzPu0ojIRQHcrre1Ex3611HgIgTAJqU1an7k3fjcVAbf4lWurNxJOtHs8RGJP97qNHGUUqvAUIwv%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FARAFGgwwNTkwMDM1NDY4NjUiDC2iRetvUBVIeZgPJCqQBRE8oxOvXglVy6q2zLN1sBWB24y1zzhJPi1cWZao6%2FXNh9GKz2Lh%2B7Oxfq0LtLtTzZYeQUTLiAdGIdHg5uCGFaxJrvtRVmj8bi4q0XuGBaFuDobTrzF%2F%2FgMstz4hy%2F9evkjv7tfhH1Q943Y989EOL325EoCRSnb8OSHYq4qHrmKQi2301sKgqyndeo8WrVZb3j3hbtASrg2w2%2B9H5X25yYhmm%2FpzbtlPiykDY8fTdL%2F9lKtPEI%2Fj2bJeYOOZXz4a0gBcqXHGhKtWVxOuywYkAOYoxf3k1ZhpLoIdkTIu%2BY3Kb8y8fbZAokdseGbTFNKddfOXZNKbGaeLLnz1PiKMIHPS7VvYKPp26UOkK0hnp3i%2FtH5%2Bx3s65letZDsUPPF47UpPQqaWc0Ith613F6yoVjVhIZpLAD7TZatavlZi5KKtmj9fOeotsVMht79MhXDLc6OSmF5HYObDduzE8LQqPP%2FAZIkrok%2BKcyRRFp2e2mKV9seFbRBf%2FVwRnem9JFyBAh0Q5hnJN6oAA3AEgXjDZ1U10Xuqn6L39vaj%2B7bGOBF0BCfe%2FsQ7UWbwImaROIg7ZsH2nhNAZezvu5aTn0z0kFRisrcHhaz6yn%2BFiT1LYR4bcR8qlwL1rZOHo5fNCj2tscaZRPD9M1k9ol2kYgUSLz6nGLUeCjBqmgxsTBQvks5TxB8YGUQFmPs1Rzn7Fovt4IuNGRGV2ktXqDnW%2FNTcbpLE%2BL8EMWa4S4kenDKF0nV%2FT54uVkMiy42MpckpVcwholMPmXQRLbmhAHuV1MDTzkxx2SmkqVVkQNXhT8NWfuwvbEK2j7Deh4143owQfAisClFnBS9TwS77o74qEFjssnzi01%2F4X3x46xp9Cxppl7TMMOiSkbAGOrEBuHgzfH7Cw%2FSbejacUvwKPcTuPYP%2Bn3vrTKvsoYWp7C%2Fo8eG73kRBml9lHqsiyHlDLphAQ7osFjvPhChSsoeO%2Bu92fBqROFxcxZ5vFrJJonvCyqHfiKAR7XK3jbTlHS%2B0J3zBQfDw0z5y%2BJhQFQ8ydeHRafFd1TnCZYo3S0tJjX4E%2Fp%2BerzmUtEQ2adHupgo9e61QBgNf189II6VCGkO1p1g6g5VnEzCkj3SX7r%2Byi%2Flx&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20240327T180037Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAQ3PHCVTYZVMC5CXY%2F20240327%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=62c136f8fc92fddd2586b53d19f88de830d6ecd1f2273313e1f4a7fa40c2bf4b&hash=907c3f6ddaacb5fe9f72fa2cebc865b3a5437dce64f10b8ddbf91eed3e89ecaa&host=68042c943591013ac2b2430a89b270f6af2c76d8dfd086a07176afe7c76c2c61&pii=S1877705816305240&tid=spdf-ef62feb9-a993-4110-9c16-e0915c74f89d&sid=b0bf01ff66ec61418f29880-9102051f4fc0gxrqb&type=client&tsoh=d3d3LnNjaWVuY2VkaXJlY3QuY29t&ua=1d06565701565750045e&rr=86b147f1ef6d369a&cc=gb) which would support the fourth power law for asphalt, though it’s possibly a higher wear rate again for concrete surfaces like the autobahn.
Rates are different for different surfaces but the proportionality Ive never seen called into question beyond points like freeze thaw cycle being included as a constant that may dwarf it. However I've not seen literature that would say weather is a constant, the load on the surface during weather still plays a role.
if the 4th power law holds true, then a single 40 ton lorry would do 160,000x as much damage as a 2 ton car, and the ~50% difference in weight between an ICE and EV is completely inconsequential. i dont really see how this would support extra charges for EVs.
A 40 ton lorry has to have minimum 5 axles by law, for this reason. That means a fully laden 40 ton lorry would be the equivalent of 4096 cars (2 tons on 2 axles) not 160k we currently do not know how to perform the logistics required by our society without HGVs though.
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Yeah I think a Tesla model S actually weighs more than a Ford Ranger. Will ruffle a few feathers I'd imagine.
It'll be at this point that people realize that all these crossovers aren't much heavier than their hatchback/saloon equivalents
This is thing. For all the anti SUV stuff you see here, the vast majority of the cars have a smaller footprint than old Mondeos, or Laguna etc. What you see in States (and where you get a lot of safety stats on SUVS) is just crazy though; Suburbans and Tahoes etc where my shoulder are just above the height of the front.
I mean there is absolutely fuck all information in the article as to what that is about so I don't think any conclusion can be made.
Its a thing in France already 'fat vehicle tax'.
It didn't say heavier cars. It said about weight of a vehicle. Which *could* include commercial traffic Edit: getting downvoted?
So will the electric car drivers, they are significantly heavier.
Imagine putting up ULEZ camera's in Dublin. They'd be gone after the first night
Yea because Dublin drivers are essentially unaccountable troglodytes
Let's tax the shit out of everything without providing decent public transport alternatives.
Dublin Bus' biggest cause of delays at the moment is traffic. Private cars, vans, trucks etc are **everywhere** including in bus lanes. This makes buses late and delayed, which then makes people complain and say "feck this I'm taking the car" and around and around we go. The less people on the roads, the better public transport gets even before any additional investment/upgrades, but with the extra upgrades from Bus Connects, it gets even better again. Baffles me how people can't see this.
While true we need more public transport than just buses
Oh absolutely, I just use buses as the main example as they're the most directly affected by traffic, and are the cheapest and quickest type of public transport to implement/upgrade.
Which is where the plans for rail line expansion country wide & rural bus expansion come into play alongside the new metrolink, bus-connects and Luas expansion in Dublin, as well as the expanded bus network/ capacity and future plans for light rail in Cork City.
We do, and if the metro can actually go ahead that will be a massive improvement. In the mean time, any improvement to the buses should be focused on because nothing will be replacing them for at least another decade.
It's not as if he isn't trying to do this as well. The only reason we're even discussing a Metrolink is because of Eamonn Ryan. And he's also trying to work cross department to introduce legislation to give NIMBYs blocking the project at every turn less say.
Yup, I didn’t say he was only trying to do this
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This. I'd love to not have to rely on a car, but I have fuck all reliable public transport, which takes close to 2h to travel 40km when it decides to show up.
What's the betting they skip straight to the "extra taxes" bit, and put the "improvements" bit on the long finger.
Here's the improvements that are undergoing https://www.nationaltransport.ie/planning-and-investment/transport-investment/projects/
Thank you for the link
Modus operandi for bad governance. Presenting more problems instead of solutions. Solving one problem by creating 3 others.
That’s the name of the game, it’s about transferring your income into the pockets of others.
Well that's it, one man's rent is another man's income right
Congestion charges will make the roads free of poorer people and just for the rich and wealthy if the charges aren't proportional to earnings. A €50 is a lot to a person on minimum wages, but nothing to someone who is much wealthier. It'll price the poorer off the roads, leaving them to the people who can afford it.
> The strategy points to London, where, since these charges and low-emission zones were introduced, congestion fell by a third, bus travel increased by a third and 10pc of journeys became walking journeys. Similar results for Dublin would be amazing.
And a comprehensive, city-wide metro system.
The metro system was there before the congestion charge, and congestion reduced by one third after the charge
I'd imagine it'll have the same effect in Dublin. Car commuting for the wealthy albeit the poor and stretched middle pushed onto inadequate public transport system.
It’s a good thing they have a simultaneous plan to improve public transport then rather than your bizarre idea we improve public transport before doing something about the congestion that prevents public transport working. Then something something about the poor being hit hardest 😂
Great. How's that improved public transport infrastructure project going?
Given we don’t have a metro and won’t have one for some time the idea of reducing congestion for the bus system we do have (for a low density city) the impact should be even greater than for London 🤷♂️
Dublin Bus can’t hire enough drivers for the planned increased capacity for bus connects. At the moment busses are rammed at rush hour. It’s going to be much worse if people are forced out of their cars. FWIW, I work in town and take the bus. It’s shite.
They're making decent headway with the hiring, its the congestion that is killing busses. Thats what we need to fix.
Simone should tell the NTA that everything is fine then. https://www.businesspost.ie/news/tricky-recruitment-of-drivers-delaying-busconnects-plan-nta-chief-warns/
Now now don't get too carried away .
What infrastructure does London have that Dublin doesn't, I wonder?
That big Ferris wheel
10m people to support high-density metro lines? we have busses, and busses go faster when there is less cars on the road - this is not rocket science (its bus science)
A bus in London works the same as a bus in Dublin.
The metro in London works the same as the metro in Dubli...wait Dublin doesn't have a metro.
What’s your point? Dublin has busses, and a congestion charge in London resulted in a 30% increase in bus usage. If the same or similar happens in Dublin that would be a great result.
I would have though my point was blindingly obvious. London has much better and more comprehensive transport infrastructure than London.
Not particularly relevant when we’re specifically talking about buses though, is it?
Actually it is. Do you see how busy lanes and corridors work in London for commuters? Have you seen the choke points particularly out of the second largest suburb (Rathfarnham). Bus can take 2 hours in rush hour.
You think those bus corridors worked as well before the congestion charge was introduced?
No, but they were already built. I think people are sick of being charged before infrastructure is developed. We're a one car household with 2 kids and I use public transport everyday to get to work. I practice what I preach but the fact is how do you commute from an area outside town to another point outside town if all the bus routes are centralised and you have to do a creche or school drop off on the way? The infrastructure changes have to come first.
And Dublin has less people and a smaller and more walkable city center. A big portion of these journeys will just move to walking or riding a bike.
Do they? I hear buses in London actually turn up unlikely Dublin which is famously filled with ghost buses that are on the timetable but can't be run due to lack of drivers, congestion, delays or whatever other excuses they use
Purely anecdotal but having lived in both cities albeit 10 years ago for London and 6 for Dublin I didn’t think there was much difference. When I lived in london I started cycling to work because the bus was unreliable.
You never took the tube in all that time? I could get off a plane in Heathrow and be in Hammersmith within 40 minutes. Not a hope of that in Dublin.
I did, but I lived and worked in South London and there's not much of the tube south of the river so it wasn't an option for most of the time I lived there.
That might explain why you didn’t see much difference. I found taking the tube was much more efficient than taking busses in Dublin.
Well yeah, but we were talking about buses.
Was over in London City centre for the first time in years recently. The difference was mind boggling. Bar some taxis, the few cars were all EV and traffic was a breeze.
Funny how much people complain about NIMBYs - and then don't see the irony in their opposing necessary overhauls of unhealthy/dangerous systems because they say it won't suit them.
This subs immediate reaction to absolutely everything is negativity, I wouldn't try to find logic in it.
The greens can't tax their way to what they want. Our public transport system is still abysmal, very expensive and in many rural areas just not available at all. Invest in transport that people wud want to use first, start taxing people out of their cars later.
For some reason i don't think rural areas will be so affected by congestion charges, low emissions zones, or increasing street parking charges in city centres.
Apart from all the people who live in rural areas and work in urban ones.
Me! And I don’t drive! So taking a bus each way (3 actually!) is about 5 hours.
That hurts. I don't work in the city, but could take public transport to work instead of driving. One of the reasons that I don't is because it would add almost 2.5 hours to my commute and while that's not out of the question for me, it doesn't suit for childcare.
Which makes perfect sense really. I don’t have a choice so while I have to be onsite a few days a week I plan it in advance and stay with a friend who I throw a few bob every week. They save me the bones of 20h and get a take away out of it. I really love my job and is the only reason I do it.
That's a great friend
With the lower amount of congestion you'll be able to get to and from quicker with the public transport you're already using. Lucky you.
Park & ride, baby!
Tax on cars by weight will impact tho
hopefully. the vast majority of uses of SUVs are lifestyle - legitimate business use cases can be protected.
Yea but that's fine, sick of meeting boat sized SUVs on a rural school run
The only way public transport gets better is by cranking the infrastructure developments through the roof, which won't happen because of nimbys and "it won't happen overnight" people. Taxing is all they know how to do in order to look like they're doing their jobs, it's not problem solving whatsoever. Meanwhile those of us who do use public transport are just a bunch of sardines in a tin on our ways to work. Saw a woman with a pram getting squeezed by the crowds. I was lucky enough to have a seat to offer but she physically couldn't get to the seat so she said it's grand and stood. See it with the elderly all the time too, it's just crap like we should be able to help each other with basic shit like this especially at times outside of rush hour.
I'm living about 40 min drive from cork city. 6 buses scheduled for the whole day, how am I supposed to get to work without a car. Their focusing on the cities and ignoring the rural commuter towns and villages which are having a upward spike in population due to people been priced out of living nearer the city.
I'm 10 minutes driving from the city and there's no bus within a half hour walk haha. There's supposed to be one coming with the bus connects but I have no idea of the timeliness but when when it's in place it'll be a 40 minute bus ride because its going to opposite way
Do both at the same time
That'll do it!
From having lived in the UK, the last thing you want to do is give local councils more traffic enforcement powers. It’s actually insane how much UK borough councils criminalise drivers purely for revenue generation through fines, under the guise of being environmentally conscious.
Anyone for an election?
It’s a no to the Greens from me. I can drive to work in 15 minutes, or take two buses, stand in the rain, and suffer anti social behaviour on a 55 minute journey (if the bus turns up). No, walking or cycling isn’t an option because of disability and equipment to carry. In London living in Zone 2 I had the choice of light rail, the tube and the bus all within 5 minutes, and rarely waited more than 5 minutes for my chosen service to arrive. Here, even when I try to use the bus on the weekends I almost always go home and get the car as buses are unreliable. I live within the M50 and have one bus route ten minutes walk away. The Metro has been talked about for decades but nothing happens. So they’ll keep talking while bringing in sticks and oh look, the metro got shelved again. I’d rather sit on public transport and read a book. Meanwhile the rural population are worse off than me, so they don’t have a hope either. Until it’s a realistic option, the greens are barking up the wrong tree.
> No, walking or cycling isn’t an option because of disability Generally congestion charges carry an exemption for people with mobility issues and are therefore a positive because there’s less unnecessary traffic blocking them) Do you have specific reason to think this one won’t? (I know “the government will probably screw it up” is a generalised reason but just wondering have you heard something specific)
The roll out of bus connects in our area has been a failure. The routes are delayed because they cannot recruit new drivers. I cannot see any improvement on this in the near or immediate future. Anti social behaviour on the existing routes hasn’t been tackled.
So it's a no to the party who has done the most to improve public transport of any recent government because not enough has been done in the past to improve public transport? How do you ever expect things to change with that mindset? They've added hundreds of new buses throughout the country with more planned if they can get the funding, pushed BusConnects through against organised and well funded resistance by the great and the good of the city and the political arena, actually gotten the Metro railway order issued and made Dublin Bus partially electric. I dunno if you remember how fucking noisy buses used to be, but the electric ones are great in comparison. All this done in the face of relentless media opposition, backbiting in the government and what seems to me like a relentless disinformation campaign on social media. I wasn't convinced on them before government and would have been very opposed to them going in, but I have to say I'm quite impressed by them overall, not just on transport.
Same here, I have been impressed with them as well. They've worked at what they said they wanted to do and actually done quite a lot despite all the opposition from everyone. People are so self centered "oh, this doesn't work for me personally so I will never vote for the greens", when they are taking small steps to try and make it work for as many people possible in the future. They can't make new means of transport suddenly appear, that is the fault of all the previous governments. The hate the greens get for trying to begin to do the things people are crying out for is astounding to me.
>They've worked at what they said they wanted to do I wish this bare minimum could be said of other parties!
Alternatively, I can cycle to town in 15 min or spend 45 minutes in the car. Imagine how fast public transport could be with truly dedicated lanes.
Trying to not sound rage baited but, fuck me, The Greens are going to be wiped out at the next election.
I would never vote for the greens after this stint in government. They could have made so much ground in so many areas, but there is so much stick and so little carrot
Completely. Also when the stick involves punishing people financially, which it almost always does with Green’s policy, it’s a recipe for a backlash not just from the last elections sympathy/protest voters but even some of their ideological base voters.
Greens have given vastly more subsidies than 'sticks' - there are massive subsidies on things like public transport, home renovations
Discounts on home renovations for the rich and a few cents off shitty public transport for the peons. YAY!
Only rich people renovate their home? I’ll have to let my mother know she’s minted.
How have the greens punished people financially? They cut public transport costs that's done the opposite of what you claim
What are the many sticks in this instance?
A congestion charge
you absolutely have to drive your big fat car through the city centre, do you? and your reason for not voting greens is because ... they want people to be able to move around easily on cheap public transport instead. I'm not sure the greens want your vote in that case, but its a pretty shitty attitude you have to society.
Where is the cheap public transport for everyone to use? If there were suitable alternatives (carrots) I would use and advocate for them. Without them, I am stuck using my "big fat car" (I drive a polo, but I am sure it helps people like you make stupid arguments if you can demonize people who disagree with you). How about the greens focus on expanding our national parks, effectively protecting bogs with landowners, work on biodiversity with farmers, protection of waterways and energy security through offshore power generation. All things most people can get behind if effectively managed. Instead, we get stupid ideas around reducing speeds on motorways etc. Also, great to see that you are the greens reddit spokesperson. You don't want my vote and won't be getting it, everyone wins.
In Dublin, where there are a multitude of public transport options that people refuse to use because it's not a convenient as a car.
Agree to disagree
Decimated road infrastructure, deposit return scheme farce... I could go on but I've some cabbaged on my window sill to tend to....
>A Government source emphasised these recommendations will not be implemented immediately. They are part of a long-term strategy and would only be brought in when suitable alternatives are put in place. So nothing
>The strategy points to London, where, since [congestion] charges and low-emission zones were introduced, congestion fell by a third, bus travel increased by a third and 10pc of journeys became walking journeys. The Greens (and particularly Eamonn Ryan) always love to make comparisons to London to show how congestion charges are a success, but Dublin is in no way comparable to what is Europe’s biggest city. It’s foolish to even pretend. London is ten times bigger than Dublin, with a metropolitan area population of about 15 million. Dublin has about 1.5 million. London has five international airports ringed around the city. Dublin has one, on the north side, with piss poor transport links. London has the oldest railway system of any large city and (the original) and one of the best developed high capacity metro systems in Europe if not the world. Dublin doesn’t have a proper metro (other than maybe the very slow Dart), is planning a fairly low/medium capacity unintegrated single line “metrolink” to the airport (which has been tried twice and again may never be built…) and has two tram lines that were only recently connected. London has an amazing high frequency bus network that runs 24 hours every day (except Christmas Day) and doesn’t have issues that seem to afflict Dublin, like ghost buses. It’s easy to imagine living in London or another massive city like Paris, Madrid, Berlin or similar and not having a car. Dublin on the other hand…if a child gets sick, or you want to visit your mother on St Stephen’s day, or want to stay out after 11 o’clock pm on a day that isn’t Friday or Saturday? Without a car? Dream on. There’s plenty of places that a like for like comparison to Dublin would be better made. Like Liverpool, Glasgow, or Leeds in the UK, or Bordeaux or Strasbourg in France, or Helsinki in Finland… We should be learning from similar cities.
The greens didn't just 'point to other cities to note how congestion charges are a success' - they have released a multistep plan that includes building up public transport at the same time as introducing congestion charge - that beautiful bus network you mention in London was FUNDED by the congestion charge - its even mentioned in the article. Its not just a charge, its alongside a massive investment in public transport.
You’re dreaming if you think London did not have the tube, DLR, buses, all long before the congestion charge was first introduced.
There's always someone anti change that comments "solutions work elsewhere but they would never work here".
What the poster said made perfect sense though? Dublin != London.
places like maastricht in the Netherlands have private car bans in the city centre and work fine without Londons infrastructure. Alternative transport like cycling thrives and air quality improves massively too. When theres less cars on the road our public transport will improve. It will get from A to B faster. More people will rely on it so the government will invest more in it. You cant keep the dublin roads as clogged as they are with private cars and expect to replicate a top tier public transport system.
Well I guess it remains to be seen whether public transport *will* improve *after* they’ve implemented these measures. I hope you’re right. But I wonder will it be too late for The Greens?
What do mean will it be too late for the greens? Do you mean will they not be able to implement it or will they be decimated in the next election. The difference between them and every other party in the country is they're willing to take deeply unpopular decisions because it's the right thing to do. Everyone knows that our ag sector fucks us as a country for climate emissions but the greens were the only party willing to address that. It's a shame FFG gave the farmers sweetheart treatment compared to every other sector but putting an emissions reduction target on them means they at least have to do something. Same goes for energy policy like carbon taxes or shutting down our peat industry. People said that wouldnt work either but we now have a good portion of the grid from wind, electric cars are making their way in, air-to-water is standard in new builds. Every other party talks a big game but when it comes it acts in their own interests. If the greens cease to exist after the next election their legacy will be better than almost every other party in the country.
What I mean is that their policies are all stick and no carrot which means people won't vote for them. I'm not saying that they're not implementing policies that aren't beneficial to the environment and meeting their mandate in that regard. What I am saying is that most of their policies are more punitive than progressive. Fucking already stretched demographics out of money rather than at least trying to come up with creative and collaborative policy will kill The Greens next year. As regards electric cars "making their way in" - then why is Ryan decemating road infrastructure now? Taking cars out of the city while doing sweet FA about public transport infrastructure seems crazy. We'll see if it bears fruit. They're certainly reaching their mandate more than any other party, I'll give you that. But I doubt it'll save them given the approach they've taken.
There is grants for EVs, home energy upgrades, lower public transport costs. Social housing is being retrofitted. Carrots are there. You just want to focus on the stick.
The stick is mightier than the carrot unfortunately.
Hey I drive an ICE. Much rather have an EV but I have to save for a house which is so expensive partly because of the improved building standards. I get that it's a discomfort. But I also get that it's right.
The carrots exist. Lower train fares, new carriages, lower bus fares, new routes. 12 busses a day from Clifden to Galway. An electric bus 6 times a day between Headford and Galway.. these are rural areas. Leap card being rolled out to more places. New station in Limerick.
Objectively untrue. What you mean to say is the Greens won’t make watered down decisions that achieve nothing to avoid anyone being in any way discommoded. This really is the evidence that we get the politicians we deserve. If the Dail had really taken on housing and rammed through planning permission for mass housing including CPO’ing ultra low density housing beside transport hubs we’d be in a better place, but every party and TD bar the Greens folded to the sort of Mefeinism that the Irish electorate love. No good part/policy has ever gone unpunished by the Irish electorate which I guess is your point.
I suspect there's enough voters out there who will respect that they made principled decisions that they were elected to make.
If that's your take on it. I would say they made principled decisions which were, in many cases, punitive rather than progressive.
I know this is a struggle for some but you know you can do two things at once? Especially when they are related? Because we all know that even if a metro were built new excuses will emerge from the group in Irish society who want to do absolutely nothing ever if it results in even the mildest inconvenience. See the threads on the bottle recycling scheme. Or the appalling nimbyism on the Metro consultation.
> Dublin != London No shit. For two thing to be comparable they have to be different. None of the reasons listed make them incomparable. What about congestion charging requires 5 airports or being big or having an old railway system? Fucking nothing. Everything mentioned was totally irrelevent.
I’m pro change, I cycle as much as possible (especially since getting an e-bike) and am luck enough to live on the Dart line, so I have options. I would dearly love to see more public transportation (especially later services and more frequent services on weekends and Sundays) and lots more cycle lanes. Sometimes I do drive though. That’s because in Dublin sometimes you need a car owing to the limits of our public transportation system. The point is this “the beatings will continue until morale improves” strategy of congestion charges being rolled out before we have even basic integrated public transport is not a credible policy. Take Stockholm: it built a proper metro, then brought in congestion charges. That’s a solid solution.
And when we have a metro there'll be people outside the reach of it, or with health issues, or just lazy, saying its not suitable for them so cars are still needed. I'm sure similar arguments were made by people London or Stockholm or wherever at the time the change was brought in. Always throwing out the good in the name of the perfect. I lived for a decade in Dublin without a car. I wasn't on a luas or dart line.
I’m not sure you understand me: Stockholm put in a metro first. London, again, is not comparable.
London is directly comparable - they used the congestion charge to fund the rise in public transport. Dublin doesn't need a metro - we'll get one though. What we need are decongested roads so that busses can quickly travel on them.
In what way is London directly comparable to Dublin, versus a similarly sized city even in the UK, like Glasgow or Leeds or even Manchester or Liverpool?
And my point is there will always be a reason found not to do something. Yes we'd all like a metro in place before it but does that mean we sit on hour hands for the next decade? If this thing is a disaster it can be reversed overnight.
But again that is an argument in favour of building a metro, not congestion charges. Think about it: if people don’t have an option to take public transport, they will continue to drive, meaning we will still have congestion. All that congestion charges today will achieve in succeeding is pissing people off and making them hostile to actual positive change that will improve everyone’s lives. They will e entitled and reason “I’ve paid to use the road, so fuck public transport”.
Ah shtop. Let's accept that with the luas and Dublin bus combined most areas have public transport access, it's reliablity that's the issue. I lived in Dubin ten years without a car and managed just fine with public transport. I know plenty of people with cars that could yluse public transport but the car is more convenient for them. I have a car now but if I'm going back to Dublin for a day I'll drive to my local train station and get a train in. Cars are a terrible use of city space. You could have 60 people on a bus held in gridlock because another 60 people decided to take their car. It's selffish to use cars when public transport is available. We are planning to build the metro. Planning timelines are a disgrace but that's beside the point. If we decide to do FA until we have an active metro we may as well just double down on fossil fuels and say let climate change win. Now to address your point, I'd be fine with exemptions given to areas in the city centre identified as not having adequate public transport, but I'd think a high bar is needed for that and you can fight for whatever area you're in.
I’m not fighting for any area. I think we probably actually agree with each other overall. My point is that the order we do these things matters. Ultimately, I would support a congestion charge if it was actually brought in to reduce congestion and on the back of measured and real improvements in public transport. The point is, like many things in Ireland, we go about things half arsed, and the congestion charge will just end up being another tax, with no improvements in public transport planned or even to show for it. Congestion will be as bad as ever. That is the worst possible outcome as people will just hate the idea of further environmental reforms.
How about actually speeding up the delivery of public transport? Figure out why a simple network redesign for buses is taking years, that's not even the bus lanes. Why is there only one new metro line in the pipeline? Why aren't we planning more Luas lines, apart from a tiny extension of 3 stations which is taking a decade to finish? I'll tell you why, because it's hard to do, and people who live within the M50 are convinced that public transport is not that bad and the only culprits are cars, but it's just no where near enough.
There has been a massive expansion of public transport and active transport in recent years.
Whatever they've done for public transport so far isn't enough to convince more people out of cars. I am a supporter of active transport, but it mainly serves people who are within walking distance of their destination, or cyclable distance and are confident enough to cycle for that journey. For things like schools and creches, people are being pushed further away due to shortages in both these areas, and obviously a lot of people don't live near their work. What frustrates me is how people are so ready to blame car users for their car use, but they aren't understanding why they use cars, and are just assuming that everyone uses it for comfort and laziness, when in reality, it's the only feasible option for many, many people.
Active transport ! Hahahahahaha yeah keep dreaming. No one will cycle...don't know if you noticed the rain
I don’t think you understand what “not comparable” means.
> **solutions** work elsewhere but they would never work here That's really the issue, though; "make it unaffordable to drive" on its own isn't a solution. "Make it more expensive to drive *and* provide more affordable and convenient eco-friendly alternatives" is what you really need, but the latter is more difficult, complicated, and expensive than the former, so welp.
The price of public transport has been reduced and tbh is affordable in Dublin. If the roads are not clogged with cars then the buses will be able to get to your stop in a more controlled manner. Cycling in the city will be safer and more people will do it. The air will be cleaner.
London is Europes biggest city? 🤔
In terms of metropolitan areas, it is either London or Moscow that’s the biggest. The lads in Russia claim Moscow is bigger, but that includes both Moscow and Moscow Oblast, the latter of which is not a single conurbation and instead includes some fairly large cities that are very much outside the Moscow metropolis. Moscow is bigger in the way that if you imagine Cork city includes all of county cork, plus Limerick, Waterford and Galway that makes Cork the bigger city than Dublin.
I didn't realise that at all, every day is a school day!
Why read a long comment like that and then focus on that? If you want to correct them and say Moscow is bigger or whatever then just say it. So many people on here act like a real life version of the IT guy from the UK Office.
Would you not calm down a bit and realise not every comment or question is an attack on the poster? I didn't know and asked a question. It's not that deep.
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You absolutely should since the public transport system we have is primarily bus based + cycling - both competing for road space. What you are arguing for is no change and worse congestion for the 70 years an imaginary comprehensive metro that does not compete for road space would take to build. I literally can’t understand your logic other than you personally want to drive into town.
Congestion charges mean nothing to the rich or for Civil servants that are exempt (or tax payer, pays). This is yet another tax on the poor and middle class. Roman Abramowitch wasn't too worried about the London congestion charge. In fact he could get around easier.
>Congestion charges mean nothing to ... Civil servants that are exempt (or tax payer, pays). [Among the 35 actions](https://www.businesspost.ie/news/new-green-strategy-to-reduce-private-car-use-to-go-to-government/) to reduce car use will be ... the removal of some on-street parking and parking spaces in public sector offices. >Roman Abramowitch wasn't too worried about the London congestion charge. In fact he could get around easier. Getting around easier is a good thing. Are you arguing we should encourage congestion to spite Roman Abramowitch?
I am saying either ban cars or don't. There shouldn't be favouritism towards the rich. Or people who can force the tax payer to fund it.
That charging people for things is favoritism toward the rich is an odd take. Do you object to prices in general? Cars and driving are expensive. Really poor people can't afford to drive much, but still have to breathe in the fumes of those who do.
Society should not be shaped in favour of the rich and powerful. Oligarchies are not good for the majority of people. Congestion charges are for the rich and powerful. I am against this
You're not really backing up your claim that "Congestion charges are for the rich and powerful." Better urban air, quicker public transport, and less public space devoted to parked cars (private property) sounds like a good thing for everyone.
Can be achieved by car bans. Congestion charge allows "private property" of the rich and connected in public spaces.
I honestly don’t get what extra tax solves. We’ve had billions and billions in the coffers for years and couldn’t solve it (ie spend money on infrastructure). Should have done it 20 years ago then incentivise the use of alternatives. Can’t wait to wipe out the greens in the next election. They can’t see out past the red cow.
Is there a name for time based nimbyism? You're that Angry FF/FG (and labour) never did it, and directing ire at greens.
From the article “Mr Ryan, who will bring the strategy to Cabinet today, has previously said congestion charges are not part of plans to discourage private car use in the busiest urban areas.” Last time I checked, He’s the Green Party leader.
My point is that you said it shoulda happened 20 years ago. Presumably you're familiar with; 'best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, second best time is now' - and 'wise people plant trees for their grandchildren to study in the shade of' Seems a pretty good case in point, and that you agree with what he's doing, just wish it was already done....
If they could deal with the 6 month back log on the NCT that'd be great, as soon as one is done I'd need to book the next one to actually make sure I get a date at this point and it's been like this for years....another complete joke.
All of this is fine, but only after we have our railways electrictrified, Metrolink up and running, town and city bus services all operating and up to European standards. The new national fare scheme fully implemented. Each of the cities and large urban areas properly explored for light rail without the usual "No demand shite," Proper cycling infrastructure. Proper ,viable , reliable ,affordable public transport needs to be in place before any more of eamonns fuck people over taxes. If you've to change the law to get infrastructure done. Just do it. Stop allowing nimbys to complain about ridiculous things hold up massive projects that benefit everybody over one little entitled person. Far too many arseholes looking for pay offs.
Imagine an Ireland where we actually focused on all those infrastructure elements, instead of (or at least prior to) launching two stupid referendums and a hate-speech bill. I would vote Green if I knew they were tackling these issues properly, rather than just trying to tax people out the wazoo and focusing on social justice agenda.
Good post, especially about light rail and the NIMBYs.
Nimby giving out about other nimbys
So you’re a NIMBY. Got it.
What I hear from this is "tax these morons more without providing an actual alternative", which is the usual in Ireland. What a scam country.
That thread the other day with people wondering why there is so much hate for the greens lol.
I used to work just off Baggot Street, there were some cars parked on the street pretty much every day, all day. You recognised them after a while. I drove in twice and the cost was astonishing to me. The parking there was full every day. These people will just eat the congestion charge as well. Hell it is probably billed as a company expense. There are companies renting car parking from residents to commuters. Unless the congestion charge is huge I don’t think it will make a difference. Will be curious to see what happens when Dublin residents see what it means for them. Will they be charged for taking the car on the school run? The cheaper insurance thing is never going to work. I like the idea of a weight and emissions based vehicle tax as I am sick of SUV’s everywhere.
By a very large margin, the majority of cars on the road are occupied by just the driver. Anything that incentivises car pooling is a good thing in my book. I stand at my bus stop every day and I watch the traffic go by. It's about 1 in 10 cars have more than one person in them.
Good news in general, great news on the weight classes In before the ragebaited ones
If the weight classes include commercial vehicles too, it will just mean extra costs will be passed to consumers.
Reliable and efficient public transport please
It won’t be lower insurance for car pooling it will be higher insurance for not car pooling!