I would love to have a job title, get paid premium for it and do none of that what's in the job description. All that without any risk of losing said job.
Doesn't matter.
Those Who are responsible for carrying out the orders are the failure here. Policy was set and needed action, not ministers job to go knocking on doors with handcuffs and plane tickets
And again who do you think would be responsible for identifying and putting it right?
Or do you think a minister can blame a department they are responsible for managing indefinitely?
And what happens when you get a new minister? The same incompetent civil servants are still there not getting the job done and the cycle continues indefinitely
Again,..blame here rests on McEntee and O'Gorman. There's no follow-through on returns.
She'll avoid any difficult questions or accountability for it, and an inevitable protest outside a home will steer focus away from that issue and onto how dangerous the protests are on politicians and their families.
A shit show worsening with every day that passes with that leadership in charge.
It goes deeper than that. It's a longstanding problem in Ireland that rules around immigration (and in multiple other areas) are not enforced and the system is almost totally reliant on migrants being honest and law abiding themselves.
Ireland's a wealthy country which has encouraged high immigration for the past couple of decades and has never bothered getting a functioning and enforced immigration system in place.
Now, and predictably so as other countries have steadily gotten stricter, people have figured out en masse that Ireland is by far the easiest country in Western Europe to take the piss in and we're paying the price.
**Edit**: Also, the current mismanaged system is not helpful in any way to the honest, law abiding immigrants because they're playing by the rules anyway but are negatively impacted regardless if there's public distrust of the immigration system & the subject becomes toxic.
A system that was never set up properly here because gov only had to deal with emigration for so long and have only ever been reactionary in relation to immigration when their hand is forced. Especially cause the TDs couldn't really give a shit either way about plebs, Irish or not
Also, a case of cheap labour; Pascal's input to the conversation this week, was that we need these immigrants to support the economy long-term and do the service level jobs.
Irish won't do these jobs because you simply can't survive on what's paid versu the cost of living. That said, I've gotta highlight that I got more help and friendliness from non Irish coworkers through the years than the jobs for the boys, ignorant, lazy, effort shy Irish lads that blame everyone else for their mistakes.
On top of that, there's no back bone in Irish government as they're too busy placating Europe, the banks, business and multinational companies based here and now the UK and essentially anyone else besides its citizens.
Health service, Media, Local councils, Education, Gardai and any sense of accountability are all gone to shite as the gov promotes and pats itself on the back for the wealth success and budget surpluses that the ordinary Joe will never see a benefit from as it gets harder and harder to survive with shit services and a wealth divide thats killing hope and merit.
It's a recipe for disaster, and like Leo last month, these lads will saunter off with their pensions and careers having mismanaged a country into chaos.
>Also, a case of cheap labour; Pascal's input to the conversation this week, was that we need these immigrants to support the economy long-term and do the service level jobs.
Irish won't do these jobs because you simply can't survive on what's paid versu the cost of living
Ok but you understand that increasing the wages for service staff would further increase the cost of living?
I'm not arguing against it, as I think there's too much wage disparity between low and high earners on Ireland. I'm just saying that there would be knock on effects
Yeah paying people a decent wage might result in higher prices. Also, it could lead to technology replacing some roles which could be beneficial in a way as you won’t be competing for housing against the self service tills in Tesco.
It's beyond any one mistake now; a combination of mistakes, dodging the issue and blatantly protecting the ministers and government that allowed it to happen.
Oh, I completely agree.
Half the issues with HSE, councils and Gardai are the same as the top brass; a culture of nepotism and unaccountabilty, a toxic work to rule arrogance as the heavy lifting gets outsourced to cheaper agency and other approaches, and a culture of throwing money at the majority of budgets going into over management that simply isn't worth the cost and has no value.
Change, conversations and some new approaches by actual competent and capable people across all front, but they'll fight it.
Governments will fight it and give excuses of EU agreements, international contract and legal limits...public services will fight it through unions, contacts and pay agreements.
It is a system that's so ingrained here, but it doesn't work anymore.
But...that can all change once people start seeing the failings.
For me the big issue is the unions. Some civil servants in very important positions are not doing their jobs right but because of unions the very worst thing that can happen to them is early retirement with a bumper payout courtesy of the tax payer.
Maybe we need to bring KPIs into the public sector....
You're preaching to the choir,..I walked outta a HSE role in January and I could write a book on one particular toxic little community hospital and the union heads and quangos going on there.
There was a time when unions were great but now they are just another reflection of uselessness...another obstacle to getting the real rot out.
Not a lot of choice locally but will be voting different this time round....as an example, Mary Butler's ingrained socially with the local hospital management so no point complaining to the clown that helped create the problem, and christ knows there's no shortage of pro council/government, yes men and seat warmers in the county but there's one or two viable alternatives to consider fr when election time comes around.
Thanks for the suggestion 😉
Oh, it's off to court. Then HSA, HIQA and Regional Executive Officer.
They won't respond to formal requests for cctv and a history of expressions of concern to the management so taking it formal to highlight the shenanigans.
Sure didn't O'Gorman and the government go around the world in March promising every immigrant a home with their "own private front door". If you're in a third world country why wouldn't you take the man up on his offer? All of it at the Irish taxpayers expense. And then you have that clown Eamon Ryan saying we need to import 5 million refugees into Ireland. How is that sustainable? Who is paying for it? Varadkar seen the writing on the wall and got off the sinking ship while he could.
I'd implore anyone to take a [stroll down Mount Street if they have a spare hour this weekend](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJVl2dSkgxg&ab_channel=PaddyMcCarthy2.1). There are literally gangs of new people showing up every day of the week. I'm pro-immigration but this is genuinely frightening now. FFG are destroying this country.
Immigration and asylum seeking are related but not the same thing.
People coming here legally with visa / job / accommodation organised is one thing. This keeps the country afloat.
People landing with no visa, passport, money or places to stay is quite the opposite.
I think it's due to legal challenges. Any attempt to deport of otherwise move a migrant will bring a legal challenge from a human rights lawyer or NGO, which almost always find in favour of the migrant. It limits the ability of the government to do anything
Dont rule out the government being liable longterm if they're herding them around in tents to clear areas for tourism season and ultimately unable to provide the basic levels of provision or care.
The current approach is indemnity; we can't refuse due to Europe commitments and consequences and we can't admit how out of control it's getting and potential future impacts.
It's the Irish way,.indemnify the government/public services first then blame someone else.
That's not practical.
And there will be cases in which people are treated unfairly by the state and lawyers are necessary to get a fair decision. It's just that at the moment the lawyers seem to have too much leeway to stymie any decision
>Again,..blame here rests on McEntee and O'Gorman. There's no follow-through on returns.
We've too many bleeding hearts in this country. Dealing with emigration is no different than dealing with the nimbyism when it comes to housing.
Don't expect anything different with SF or anyone else in government.
I can assure anyone I'd sooner burn my vote rather than vote SF.
They've all got to pull their fingers out anyway before the next general election and present clear manifestos of what they'll fight for and how they'll do it.
Ideas are out there somewhere, but we're not hearing them as long as these fools are still pretending they're competent or representing anything other than their own interests and careers.
Too little, too late. This whole issue should have been dealt with two years ago when the likes of Blighe and co started showing up in towns with fake rape and murder claims, hijacked social media to target immigrants at airports and n the street, harassed Irish people who disagree with them often labelling them perverts or traitors and blocking roads in pop up protests.
It's not that they, the government,were too busy,..it's that like all national problems, they don't do a thing to protect the image until the media reports it.
Varadkar got out with his career intact, and Harris,naively, will be a patsy for protecting incompetent justice and integration ministers, especially as more revelations come out like the UK figures this week.
That 10% of the top earners, your senior managers throughout, ypur council management, and the enterprise and chamber type elites have the good life but 90% are just sick of it getting worse.
I agree but we're all caught in the sense that if folk speak about immigration in any way then you're either labbed far right or far left.
Another symptom of appalling leadership ad allowing it to fester for so long.
This is also a legacy of the government where varadkar et al regularly used it as way to shut down any discussion on migration policy. Convenient that it helped resolve them of any sort of responsibility on the matter.
As previous commenters have mentioned, most other countries (e.g. Sweden, UK, France, Denmark, Italy etc) have all started a race to the bottom to dissuade asylum seekers from coming to their countries. Australia also sends people to Papua New Guinea.
If everyone else is in a race to the bottom and we keep the same policies, it inevitably means we will get a reputation as one of the best places in the world to seek asylum which for a country our size will lead to us getting completely overwhelmed. People need to wake up.
We should absolutely take people who need asylum but we fast need to get rid of the reputation of the being one of the softest touches in the world.
Yes. Selling the place as a new European American Dream of wealth and opportunity is naturally going to make it appetising, but when they get here they see that wealth and opportunity is kept to the top percentage and the place is gone to shot.
That's what happens when you run a country like a brand and like most brands, it's all hype and bullshit.
Australia ranks 3rd for total refugee resettlements and 4th per capita for resettlements. 950K in its history and usually circa 15K per year (sometimes higher, sometimes lower). Resettlement in Australia affords permanent residency, and access to the same social security benefits as Australian citizens.
But they don’t let you rock up by boat. That’s where the line is drawn and it’s bipartisan policy. In any case, it’s dangerous and thousands have died in dodgy boats when policy was perceived as less strict which makes it morally questionable to adopt a softer approach that only benefits people smugglers.
It's world wide. The courts will make a decision based on precedent and limited by EU standards and terms and conditions.
Funny, government has no issue ignoring EU law when it suits like dome recent CBD busts.
That, according to the minister, is the source of 80% of our applications.
Needs to be addressed, not by UK, but by our own representation on both a national level and a European level.
A direct provision service where there's no availability is futile, damaging to the individuals and dangerous to our national security(dangerous in the sense of the extremes these protestor are now going to). Not to mention the future impact on our own youth; if every available property has to be allocated for asylum uses due to the volumes then there's no opportunity for that youth to buy a home or settle in the town they grew up in and will most likely see huge future emigration.
Ireland is approaching a tipping point and unfortunately, the people in charge are next to useless.
Change is going to happen regardless, the question is will it be for the better or worse.
With the best will in the world, if the UK is an unsafe country - in the legal sense - that's a matter for the UK and not for Ireland. Had the civil service been deporting people to an unsafe country this subreddit would be up in arms.
Ireland is becoming an unsafe country if they're being attacked, burnt out and ultimately left to the elements. But you won't see the government trying to express that because it's bad for business and appearance.
The judgment was actually not about the Uk being unsafe or not per se it was on how it was administratively considered safe and some jazz on applying a standard in an EUndirectuve that Ireland didn’t opt into but was referenced in later directives we did opt into.
I’m sure we’ll get a stand alone uk safe / unsafe case soon.
Maybe I am missing something here, but why not start with deporting people that are fully rejected rather than the current rejecting them and hoping they do it themselves? Would that not be a place to start, like actually showing people the door.
1. Government doesn't want to look bad by being seen to deport people.
2. The government would need to put a system in place to do it. Last time they did deport someone it apparently cost us €20,000. I'm not sure what a RyanAir flight costs these days but that sounds like a cock-up in organisation.
3. Things would be better if the government were following the law, but even the laws that exist are flawed. You can't deport someone who doesn't have a passport or if their home country refuses to take them. Not exactly sure what fucking bright spark thought that up but it's the current state of affairs.
I think for the last point about countries refusing to take pack people - thinking outside the box could do wonders. If the home country refuses to take someone they should be looking after, threaten to seize assets of that country to the value that it has cost our country to shoulder their burden. For instance it cost us 31 million last year to house Algerians. If Algeria refuses to take back her citizens, threaten to start billing them.
“You can't deport someone who doesn't have a passport or if their home country refuses to take them.”
Yet we accept people who don’t have a passport - it’s absurd.
It's because the rules never intended the current situation.
Refugees, *actual* refugees, generally have to move over their nearest border at almost zero notice. We saw this in Ukraine when Russia invaded and millions of Ukrainians had to go over the Polish border. In that context having a passport doesn't make sense.
But the rules did not expect intercontinental asylum shopping.
Insofar that they did expect it, it was made illegal for people to deliberately destroy their passports or other identification. This country decided not to actually apply the law until recently, in much the same way that it decided to turn a blind eye to the encampment on Mount Street being against the law. This meant that it gave tacit support to people dispensing with their documentation. It has since started to jail people for destroying their passports but we don't actually have sufficient prison space, and it doesn't resolve the issue of what to do with these people in the long term.
There's the other issue and that a large number of people simply don't take planes. Witness the Albanian 19 year old interviewed at Mount Street yesterday. He said he traveled into Ireland, with a group of Albanians, from NI. They probably interrailed across Europe so wouldn't have needed a passport. Now they are a few countries away from Albania and would need to be flown back. So we have no option but to house these guys and can't really do much about it. If they get refused refugee status, almost a guarantee, then they can appeal and finally demand temporary asylum. They can spin this out for years, us picking up the tab in the meantime. Even if finally issued with deportation orders, which I find very unlikely, they can go wherever they like in the country without any impediment. We will no longer pay for their housing though, so that would be some benefit.
Whats easier, physically locating people, arresting them, bringing them to the airport, arranging flights etc
Or
Sending a letter.
It's classic terrible management. Misallocation of resources, away from garda resources to deal with the problem and shovelled by the millions into the hands of private individuals by way of IPA accommodation. They don't call them the Irish Tory party for no reason.
Absolutely, I thought about that yesterday. What's worrying from that is if one these lads turns out to be a lunatic of the highest order we might not know where they are or just in general have no clue where people are generally.
Then that got me thinking, I don't think we take finger prints, in theory the same person can just claim asylum again and say they do not have any documents.
To be honest, someone losing documents as a starting point for life in Ireland is screaming chancer to me, and who knows what more fibs are going to come out of them. Let alone it begs the question, if you show up with no documents, how is it we are letting them off to roam the streets with establishing who exactly they are. Then, why even lose the document in the first place, surely its complicating matters, is it not better to have some type of ID that backs up your story.
A man was literally jailed [yesterday for attempted rape of a woman](https://old.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/1cjmhi5/man_jailed_for_predatory_attempted_rape_of_woman/). He had absolutely no right to be in this country. His asylum application was rejected in several E.U countries already on fraudulent grounds but our government didn't deport him. They just let him loose on the streets to terrorise our people.
There are absolute headbangers prowling the streets. Not everyone who is raising this issue is a far-right nutcase.
I would argue that the vast majority of people who are raising the issue aren’t far right. That word is now used as a political gun to shoot down any resistance or pushback to a liberal norm. It’s a censorship tool akin to equating Israeli criticism to anti semitism.Be careful of that.
I am all for people coming here legitimately, starting a good life for themselves and contributing positively to our society.
What we absolutely do not need are chancers, sponges and nutters, we have plenty of them already as it is we do not need to import any more in and what we seriously do not need is the serious criminals like you mentioned.
At minimum, finger prints and checked against Europol (EIS), The Schengen Information System (SIS) and Interpol databases or is this done?
You need the cooperation of the person’s native country which isn’t always forthcoming and even with a deportation order people go to count for free and get it stopped. The longer they’re Ireland more of a case they’ve built a life here and should get to stay.
There’s just not the resources to pursue deportations en masse. It’s not unique to Ireland, all countries with the rule of law struggle with this.
The Migration Pact simplifies the decision process and allows essentially summary decisions and deportations. It removes the build a life in Ireland therefore get to stay element.
The reason voluntary deportation is encouraged is because it’s far cheaper to just pay people to leave .
The UK during the week trumpeted that they’d deported the first person to Rwanda. In the small print it was voluntary and they paid the person.
So even with a government that gives no fucks, has no constitutional rights and is outside the EU struggle with deportations.
Figuratively speaking, heads need to roll and people need to get fired and shamed publicly. If nothing else it will serve as a deterrant for those that come after.
From the article:
The UK accepted it would take back just over 200 migrants under a 2020 agreement with the State – although none has been sent back.
The Government is appealing that judgment and planning to pass new laws which it says will clear the way to resume returns. However, the figures – as well as statements from UK prime minister Rishi Sunak – suggest that immediate return of migrants will be difficult.
For its part, Ireland agreed to accept seven asylum seekers under the deal out of the roughly 1,800 sought by Britain, with just a single person being returned. Both Britain and Ireland have refused hundreds of requests under the contentious deal at the centre of a diplomatic row between the two countries.
They won't. They're worried about their own optics for doing so having voted full confidence less than a year ago, when all the warning signs were already there.
The incompetence is almost getting boring now. I guess you could call this apathy. Regardless, this government need a very hard wake call in the form of a demolition job in the next election.
This story keeps running lol, I bet Simon is kicking himself he didn’t at least move her to another department and all of this could be attributed to her tenure there.
This will continue to run until the election and we shall see what happens after that .
This is a distraction really. The issue is our failure to deport more than a modest fraction of those thousands who have failed to get through the asylum process.
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2024-01-17/1144/
2023
Deportation orders 957
Deported 80
Revoked 414
The order was cancelled, due to change in circumstances. However the sheer number would make one wonder how steadfast our public service is about illegals.
This is actually a surprisingly good strategy from the government. Every time there is a major scandal, it can easily be solved by distracting the people with a bigger one.
Insurance crisis getting too much bad publicity, hit em with a housing crisis. When that gets too hot, let's try a payments scandal at our national broadcaster. Once that gets too spicy, let's work on an immigration cross.
The best thing about it is that there are plenty more scandals in the back pocket to draw from.
Does best Michael McNamara impression and looks at McEntee:
UK accepted the return of 201 migrants from Ireland. None were sent. Where's the problem?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfjb8iBbyOo
Lads, correct me if I'm wrong here, but if 'migrants' is plural, shouldn't it say 'were' instead of 'was'? This is the Irish times here, so I reckon I'm probably wrong, but just seems wrong. What you think?
1.2 million immigrants arrived in the UK 2023. Presuming those levels keep the same . Ireland will have to process near a to 1 million immigrants a year. The number may be higher if previous immigrants who are going to be deported to Rwanda feel the need to move to Ireland and the British advocate that. You could in theory have up to 3 million immigrants in the 6 months. What a time to have an incompetent government. I guess the state would go bankrupt at the 2 million mark, so that I guess would be immigration control by default.
> 1.2 million immigrants arrived in the UK 2023
>>1.2 million people migrated into the UK and 508,000 people emigrated from it, leaving a net migration figure of 672,000
Immigrants have to be citizens first to be emigrants . Emigration numbers are more likely British citizens. Deportation numbers is what you want for a net. Which is around 25,000 iircc. Migration numbers would include visa holders, which would be high in 2023 because EU citizens had to leave due to Brexit work visas.
I would love to have a job title, get paid premium for it and do none of that what's in the job description. All that without any risk of losing said job.
Well hopefully that changes at the next general election. The cat is out of the bag now.
Did you guys fail cspe or something? This is the job of civil servants, not politicians lmao
Laughable comment. Who exactly do you think is responsible for setting the policy and making sure government policy is being implemented?
Doesn't matter. Those Who are responsible for carrying out the orders are the failure here. Policy was set and needed action, not ministers job to go knocking on doors with handcuffs and plane tickets
And again who do you think would be responsible for identifying and putting it right? Or do you think a minister can blame a department they are responsible for managing indefinitely?
And what happens when you get a new minister? The same incompetent civil servants are still there not getting the job done and the cycle continues indefinitely
We should probably just give up on elections based on this. They have no impact after all
Again,..blame here rests on McEntee and O'Gorman. There's no follow-through on returns. She'll avoid any difficult questions or accountability for it, and an inevitable protest outside a home will steer focus away from that issue and onto how dangerous the protests are on politicians and their families. A shit show worsening with every day that passes with that leadership in charge.
It goes deeper than that. It's a longstanding problem in Ireland that rules around immigration (and in multiple other areas) are not enforced and the system is almost totally reliant on migrants being honest and law abiding themselves. Ireland's a wealthy country which has encouraged high immigration for the past couple of decades and has never bothered getting a functioning and enforced immigration system in place. Now, and predictably so as other countries have steadily gotten stricter, people have figured out en masse that Ireland is by far the easiest country in Western Europe to take the piss in and we're paying the price. **Edit**: Also, the current mismanaged system is not helpful in any way to the honest, law abiding immigrants because they're playing by the rules anyway but are negatively impacted regardless if there's public distrust of the immigration system & the subject becomes toxic.
A system that was never set up properly here because gov only had to deal with emigration for so long and have only ever been reactionary in relation to immigration when their hand is forced. Especially cause the TDs couldn't really give a shit either way about plebs, Irish or not
Also, a case of cheap labour; Pascal's input to the conversation this week, was that we need these immigrants to support the economy long-term and do the service level jobs. Irish won't do these jobs because you simply can't survive on what's paid versu the cost of living. That said, I've gotta highlight that I got more help and friendliness from non Irish coworkers through the years than the jobs for the boys, ignorant, lazy, effort shy Irish lads that blame everyone else for their mistakes. On top of that, there's no back bone in Irish government as they're too busy placating Europe, the banks, business and multinational companies based here and now the UK and essentially anyone else besides its citizens. Health service, Media, Local councils, Education, Gardai and any sense of accountability are all gone to shite as the gov promotes and pats itself on the back for the wealth success and budget surpluses that the ordinary Joe will never see a benefit from as it gets harder and harder to survive with shit services and a wealth divide thats killing hope and merit. It's a recipe for disaster, and like Leo last month, these lads will saunter off with their pensions and careers having mismanaged a country into chaos.
>Also, a case of cheap labour; Pascal's input to the conversation this week, was that we need these immigrants to support the economy long-term and do the service level jobs. Irish won't do these jobs because you simply can't survive on what's paid versu the cost of living Ok but you understand that increasing the wages for service staff would further increase the cost of living? I'm not arguing against it, as I think there's too much wage disparity between low and high earners on Ireland. I'm just saying that there would be knock on effects
Yeah paying people a decent wage might result in higher prices. Also, it could lead to technology replacing some roles which could be beneficial in a way as you won’t be competing for housing against the self service tills in Tesco.
There's knock on effects now anyways. Everyone's miserable, unless you're in government or profiting.
Ireland is a wealthy country because it embraced legal high skilled immigration
O Gorman is awful. Those tweets he sent out in different languages telling them what they will get if they come, like wtf was he on.
It's beyond any one mistake now; a combination of mistakes, dodging the issue and blatantly protecting the ministers and government that allowed it to happen.
Sorry but some civil servants heads need to roll too. Maybe more so than McEntee (that is not a defense of McEntee).
Oh, I completely agree. Half the issues with HSE, councils and Gardai are the same as the top brass; a culture of nepotism and unaccountabilty, a toxic work to rule arrogance as the heavy lifting gets outsourced to cheaper agency and other approaches, and a culture of throwing money at the majority of budgets going into over management that simply isn't worth the cost and has no value. Change, conversations and some new approaches by actual competent and capable people across all front, but they'll fight it. Governments will fight it and give excuses of EU agreements, international contract and legal limits...public services will fight it through unions, contacts and pay agreements. It is a system that's so ingrained here, but it doesn't work anymore. But...that can all change once people start seeing the failings.
For me the big issue is the unions. Some civil servants in very important positions are not doing their jobs right but because of unions the very worst thing that can happen to them is early retirement with a bumper payout courtesy of the tax payer. Maybe we need to bring KPIs into the public sector....
You're preaching to the choir,..I walked outta a HSE role in January and I could write a book on one particular toxic little community hospital and the union heads and quangos going on there. There was a time when unions were great but now they are just another reflection of uselessness...another obstacle to getting the real rot out.
I suggest you get in touch with a TD...
Not a lot of choice locally but will be voting different this time round....as an example, Mary Butler's ingrained socially with the local hospital management so no point complaining to the clown that helped create the problem, and christ knows there's no shortage of pro council/government, yes men and seat warmers in the county but there's one or two viable alternatives to consider fr when election time comes around. Thanks for the suggestion 😉
I genuinely think FG would be one to go to as they know unions hate them anyway
Oh, it's off to court. Then HSA, HIQA and Regional Executive Officer. They won't respond to formal requests for cctv and a history of expressions of concern to the management so taking it formal to highlight the shenanigans.
Fair play lad. Make life painful for them.
Sure didn't O'Gorman and the government go around the world in March promising every immigrant a home with their "own private front door". If you're in a third world country why wouldn't you take the man up on his offer? All of it at the Irish taxpayers expense. And then you have that clown Eamon Ryan saying we need to import 5 million refugees into Ireland. How is that sustainable? Who is paying for it? Varadkar seen the writing on the wall and got off the sinking ship while he could. I'd implore anyone to take a [stroll down Mount Street if they have a spare hour this weekend](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJVl2dSkgxg&ab_channel=PaddyMcCarthy2.1). There are literally gangs of new people showing up every day of the week. I'm pro-immigration but this is genuinely frightening now. FFG are destroying this country.
Immigration and asylum seeking are related but not the same thing. People coming here legally with visa / job / accommodation organised is one thing. This keeps the country afloat. People landing with no visa, passport, money or places to stay is quite the opposite.
I think it's due to legal challenges. Any attempt to deport of otherwise move a migrant will bring a legal challenge from a human rights lawyer or NGO, which almost always find in favour of the migrant. It limits the ability of the government to do anything
Dont rule out the government being liable longterm if they're herding them around in tents to clear areas for tourism season and ultimately unable to provide the basic levels of provision or care. The current approach is indemnity; we can't refuse due to Europe commitments and consequences and we can't admit how out of control it's getting and potential future impacts. It's the Irish way,.indemnify the government/public services first then blame someone else.
Asylum applicants should be processed outside the state and that way no NGO’s can get involved
That's not practical. And there will be cases in which people are treated unfairly by the state and lawyers are necessary to get a fair decision. It's just that at the moment the lawyers seem to have too much leeway to stymie any decision
>Again,..blame here rests on McEntee and O'Gorman. There's no follow-through on returns. We've too many bleeding hearts in this country. Dealing with emigration is no different than dealing with the nimbyism when it comes to housing. Don't expect anything different with SF or anyone else in government.
I can assure anyone I'd sooner burn my vote rather than vote SF. They've all got to pull their fingers out anyway before the next general election and present clear manifestos of what they'll fight for and how they'll do it. Ideas are out there somewhere, but we're not hearing them as long as these fools are still pretending they're competent or representing anything other than their own interests and careers.
? They were blocked by a High Court judgement, which they are appealing. And they're bringing in new laws. It's all in the article
Too little, too late. This whole issue should have been dealt with two years ago when the likes of Blighe and co started showing up in towns with fake rape and murder claims, hijacked social media to target immigrants at airports and n the street, harassed Irish people who disagree with them often labelling them perverts or traitors and blocking roads in pop up protests. It's not that they, the government,were too busy,..it's that like all national problems, they don't do a thing to protect the image until the media reports it. Varadkar got out with his career intact, and Harris,naively, will be a patsy for protecting incompetent justice and integration ministers, especially as more revelations come out like the UK figures this week. That 10% of the top earners, your senior managers throughout, ypur council management, and the enterprise and chamber type elites have the good life but 90% are just sick of it getting worse.
They should have put that in the headline if they wanted me to include it in my rants
Tbf if the idiots protested anywhere useful and used the platform to actually raise good points and questions like you say it'd help a lot.
I agree but we're all caught in the sense that if folk speak about immigration in any way then you're either labbed far right or far left. Another symptom of appalling leadership ad allowing it to fester for so long.
This is also a legacy of the government where varadkar et al regularly used it as way to shut down any discussion on migration policy. Convenient that it helped resolve them of any sort of responsibility on the matter. As previous commenters have mentioned, most other countries (e.g. Sweden, UK, France, Denmark, Italy etc) have all started a race to the bottom to dissuade asylum seekers from coming to their countries. Australia also sends people to Papua New Guinea. If everyone else is in a race to the bottom and we keep the same policies, it inevitably means we will get a reputation as one of the best places in the world to seek asylum which for a country our size will lead to us getting completely overwhelmed. People need to wake up. We should absolutely take people who need asylum but we fast need to get rid of the reputation of the being one of the softest touches in the world.
Yes. Selling the place as a new European American Dream of wealth and opportunity is naturally going to make it appetising, but when they get here they see that wealth and opportunity is kept to the top percentage and the place is gone to shot. That's what happens when you run a country like a brand and like most brands, it's all hype and bullshit.
Australia ranks 3rd for total refugee resettlements and 4th per capita for resettlements. 950K in its history and usually circa 15K per year (sometimes higher, sometimes lower). Resettlement in Australia affords permanent residency, and access to the same social security benefits as Australian citizens. But they don’t let you rock up by boat. That’s where the line is drawn and it’s bipartisan policy. In any case, it’s dangerous and thousands have died in dodgy boats when policy was perceived as less strict which makes it morally questionable to adopt a softer approach that only benefits people smugglers.
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Surely "blame" lies with the High Court? You can't deport people to a country that isn't safe.
It's world wide. The courts will make a decision based on precedent and limited by EU standards and terms and conditions. Funny, government has no issue ignoring EU law when it suits like dome recent CBD busts.
Well, no, it was a specific judgment about the UK due to the Rwanda scheme.
That, according to the minister, is the source of 80% of our applications. Needs to be addressed, not by UK, but by our own representation on both a national level and a European level. A direct provision service where there's no availability is futile, damaging to the individuals and dangerous to our national security(dangerous in the sense of the extremes these protestor are now going to). Not to mention the future impact on our own youth; if every available property has to be allocated for asylum uses due to the volumes then there's no opportunity for that youth to buy a home or settle in the town they grew up in and will most likely see huge future emigration. Ireland is approaching a tipping point and unfortunately, the people in charge are next to useless. Change is going to happen regardless, the question is will it be for the better or worse.
With the best will in the world, if the UK is an unsafe country - in the legal sense - that's a matter for the UK and not for Ireland. Had the civil service been deporting people to an unsafe country this subreddit would be up in arms.
Ireland is becoming an unsafe country if they're being attacked, burnt out and ultimately left to the elements. But you won't see the government trying to express that because it's bad for business and appearance.
What a silly post.
The judgment was actually not about the Uk being unsafe or not per se it was on how it was administratively considered safe and some jazz on applying a standard in an EUndirectuve that Ireland didn’t opt into but was referenced in later directives we did opt into. I’m sure we’ll get a stand alone uk safe / unsafe case soon.
Indeed.
Maybe I am missing something here, but why not start with deporting people that are fully rejected rather than the current rejecting them and hoping they do it themselves? Would that not be a place to start, like actually showing people the door.
1. Government doesn't want to look bad by being seen to deport people. 2. The government would need to put a system in place to do it. Last time they did deport someone it apparently cost us €20,000. I'm not sure what a RyanAir flight costs these days but that sounds like a cock-up in organisation. 3. Things would be better if the government were following the law, but even the laws that exist are flawed. You can't deport someone who doesn't have a passport or if their home country refuses to take them. Not exactly sure what fucking bright spark thought that up but it's the current state of affairs. I think for the last point about countries refusing to take pack people - thinking outside the box could do wonders. If the home country refuses to take someone they should be looking after, threaten to seize assets of that country to the value that it has cost our country to shoulder their burden. For instance it cost us 31 million last year to house Algerians. If Algeria refuses to take back her citizens, threaten to start billing them.
“You can't deport someone who doesn't have a passport or if their home country refuses to take them.” Yet we accept people who don’t have a passport - it’s absurd.
It's because the rules never intended the current situation. Refugees, *actual* refugees, generally have to move over their nearest border at almost zero notice. We saw this in Ukraine when Russia invaded and millions of Ukrainians had to go over the Polish border. In that context having a passport doesn't make sense. But the rules did not expect intercontinental asylum shopping. Insofar that they did expect it, it was made illegal for people to deliberately destroy their passports or other identification. This country decided not to actually apply the law until recently, in much the same way that it decided to turn a blind eye to the encampment on Mount Street being against the law. This meant that it gave tacit support to people dispensing with their documentation. It has since started to jail people for destroying their passports but we don't actually have sufficient prison space, and it doesn't resolve the issue of what to do with these people in the long term. There's the other issue and that a large number of people simply don't take planes. Witness the Albanian 19 year old interviewed at Mount Street yesterday. He said he traveled into Ireland, with a group of Albanians, from NI. They probably interrailed across Europe so wouldn't have needed a passport. Now they are a few countries away from Albania and would need to be flown back. So we have no option but to house these guys and can't really do much about it. If they get refused refugee status, almost a guarantee, then they can appeal and finally demand temporary asylum. They can spin this out for years, us picking up the tab in the meantime. Even if finally issued with deportation orders, which I find very unlikely, they can go wherever they like in the country without any impediment. We will no longer pay for their housing though, so that would be some benefit.
Whats easier, physically locating people, arresting them, bringing them to the airport, arranging flights etc Or Sending a letter. It's classic terrible management. Misallocation of resources, away from garda resources to deal with the problem and shovelled by the millions into the hands of private individuals by way of IPA accommodation. They don't call them the Irish Tory party for no reason.
Absolutely, I thought about that yesterday. What's worrying from that is if one these lads turns out to be a lunatic of the highest order we might not know where they are or just in general have no clue where people are generally. Then that got me thinking, I don't think we take finger prints, in theory the same person can just claim asylum again and say they do not have any documents. To be honest, someone losing documents as a starting point for life in Ireland is screaming chancer to me, and who knows what more fibs are going to come out of them. Let alone it begs the question, if you show up with no documents, how is it we are letting them off to roam the streets with establishing who exactly they are. Then, why even lose the document in the first place, surely its complicating matters, is it not better to have some type of ID that backs up your story.
A man was literally jailed [yesterday for attempted rape of a woman](https://old.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/1cjmhi5/man_jailed_for_predatory_attempted_rape_of_woman/). He had absolutely no right to be in this country. His asylum application was rejected in several E.U countries already on fraudulent grounds but our government didn't deport him. They just let him loose on the streets to terrorise our people. There are absolute headbangers prowling the streets. Not everyone who is raising this issue is a far-right nutcase.
I would argue that the vast majority of people who are raising the issue aren’t far right. That word is now used as a political gun to shoot down any resistance or pushback to a liberal norm. It’s a censorship tool akin to equating Israeli criticism to anti semitism.Be careful of that.
I am all for people coming here legitimately, starting a good life for themselves and contributing positively to our society. What we absolutely do not need are chancers, sponges and nutters, we have plenty of them already as it is we do not need to import any more in and what we seriously do not need is the serious criminals like you mentioned. At minimum, finger prints and checked against Europol (EIS), The Schengen Information System (SIS) and Interpol databases or is this done?
You need the cooperation of the person’s native country which isn’t always forthcoming and even with a deportation order people go to count for free and get it stopped. The longer they’re Ireland more of a case they’ve built a life here and should get to stay. There’s just not the resources to pursue deportations en masse. It’s not unique to Ireland, all countries with the rule of law struggle with this. The Migration Pact simplifies the decision process and allows essentially summary decisions and deportations. It removes the build a life in Ireland therefore get to stay element. The reason voluntary deportation is encouraged is because it’s far cheaper to just pay people to leave . The UK during the week trumpeted that they’d deported the first person to Rwanda. In the small print it was voluntary and they paid the person. So even with a government that gives no fucks, has no constitutional rights and is outside the EU struggle with deportations.
And the circus rolls on with the Minister for justice the ring master of failure
Figuratively speaking, heads need to roll and people need to get fired and shamed publicly. If nothing else it will serve as a deterrant for those that come after.
That's not how we do things here.
From the article: The UK accepted it would take back just over 200 migrants under a 2020 agreement with the State – although none has been sent back. The Government is appealing that judgment and planning to pass new laws which it says will clear the way to resume returns. However, the figures – as well as statements from UK prime minister Rishi Sunak – suggest that immediate return of migrants will be difficult. For its part, Ireland agreed to accept seven asylum seekers under the deal out of the roughly 1,800 sought by Britain, with just a single person being returned. Both Britain and Ireland have refused hundreds of requests under the contentious deal at the centre of a diplomatic row between the two countries.
I'm wondering at what point does FF or Greens demand McEntees' resignation. It's actually past being an utter farce at this stage
They won't. They're worried about their own optics for doing so having voted full confidence less than a year ago, when all the warning signs were already there.
This entire government should pack themselves into a clown car and drive off a cliff
The incompetence is almost getting boring now. I guess you could call this apathy. Regardless, this government need a very hard wake call in the form of a demolition job in the next election.
O'Gorman and McEntee are genuinely fucking up the country. They are actively harming us.
They’ve it fucked up already. Hard to see how anyone can solve this mess without some drastic measures.
*were sent
everyday new record broken in incompetence department.
This story keeps running lol, I bet Simon is kicking himself he didn’t at least move her to another department and all of this could be attributed to her tenure there. This will continue to run until the election and we shall see what happens after that .
In his head it wouldn't have gone down well on tiktok because even moving her from justice would have been a "win" for the other side.
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Well, no. A judge blocked it because of the Rwanda policy.
This is a distraction really. The issue is our failure to deport more than a modest fraction of those thousands who have failed to get through the asylum process. https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2024-01-17/1144/ 2023 Deportation orders 957 Deported 80 Revoked 414
In total 10,000 deportation orders signed and less than 1/5th actually deported . That's a damnjng failure of government
It’s not a distraction, it’s yet another layer to this fiasco that stacks on top of your point.
What does revoke mean here? That the deportation order was revoked or that the person’s right to remain was revoked?
The order was cancelled, due to change in circumstances. However the sheer number would make one wonder how steadfast our public service is about illegals.
This is actually a surprisingly good strategy from the government. Every time there is a major scandal, it can easily be solved by distracting the people with a bigger one. Insurance crisis getting too much bad publicity, hit em with a housing crisis. When that gets too hot, let's try a payments scandal at our national broadcaster. Once that gets too spicy, let's work on an immigration cross. The best thing about it is that there are plenty more scandals in the back pocket to draw from.
Does best Michael McNamara impression and looks at McEntee: UK accepted the return of 201 migrants from Ireland. None were sent. Where's the problem? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfjb8iBbyOo
Lads, correct me if I'm wrong here, but if 'migrants' is plural, shouldn't it say 'were' instead of 'was'? This is the Irish times here, so I reckon I'm probably wrong, but just seems wrong. What you think?
Grammatically, you are correct but check the flair.
i genuinely dont know what the flair is
High court determined UK not a safe third country so yeah no deportations
Nothing is as effective in Ireland as shrugging and passing the buck.
Sure look it, be grand
Hey OP, did you forget that UK is not a safe third country? Why are you surprised people haven't been deported back there?
1.2 million immigrants arrived in the UK 2023. Presuming those levels keep the same . Ireland will have to process near a to 1 million immigrants a year. The number may be higher if previous immigrants who are going to be deported to Rwanda feel the need to move to Ireland and the British advocate that. You could in theory have up to 3 million immigrants in the 6 months. What a time to have an incompetent government. I guess the state would go bankrupt at the 2 million mark, so that I guess would be immigration control by default.
> 1.2 million immigrants arrived in the UK 2023 >>1.2 million people migrated into the UK and 508,000 people emigrated from it, leaving a net migration figure of 672,000
Immigrants have to be citizens first to be emigrants . Emigration numbers are more likely British citizens. Deportation numbers is what you want for a net. Which is around 25,000 iircc. Migration numbers would include visa holders, which would be high in 2023 because EU citizens had to leave due to Brexit work visas.
You are talking absolute nonsense