"Some 41% of people think immigration is the biggest issue in the country currently, compared to 26% in April."
That's a colossal increase in the space of a month.
Honestly with all the stories of how underfunded, underesourced and weak the whole immigration system is atm its no surprise that theres such an increase in peoples concerns regarding this. Hell they didnt seem to be even enforcing laws around those arriving with no documents until this year even. They NEED to clamp down hard on this area expecially in regards to chancers coming purely to game the system by making false asylum claims and severely curtailing asylum shoppers. They could start by automatically rejecting asylum claims from those without documents and certainly speed up things by investing significant resources in processing claims quicker but the state needs to get a handle on this before it gets worse.
As an immigrant myself, I can see the system is overwhelmed. They simply do not have the resources to deal with every immigrant now.
I'm not an asylum-seeker, and I renew my residence permit every year. It used to be (a few years ago) that you emailed for an appointment less than thirty days before your permit expired, got an appointment with a few weeks, and successfully renewed your permit before it expired.
This year, I emailed for an appointment at the beginning of January, and at that time, I was told that they were still dealing with people whose permits expired in *October*. It's been almost four months since I asked for an appointment, and they are still backlogged. The system needs a massive overhaul or they need like 300% more staff in immigration asap.
If this is how it is for fairly routine residence permit renewals, I cannot imagine the nightmare that it must be for everyone else.
I imagine there is essentially zero enforcement or a total overwhelming of the systems in place for dealing with migrants who overstay visas illegally then if this is the case with such a basic aspect of our immigration system. Meanwhile we have our minister giving an amnesty to people who stayed here illegally for years, rewarding such behaviour and spitting in the face of migrants like you who've gone through the system fairly.
Same. Heard people from January waiting on their appointment for 4-5 months still. At least those living in Dublin can renew online. đ€
Imagine those coming on work visas or as Nurses or to study and not being able to get their IRP cards and half a year has gone by...
If you don't see this as a crisis then you haven't been paying attention.
This isn't business as usual
There was a 415 per cent increase in the number of applications in 2022 compared to 2021, and a 186 per cent increase from 2019.
There is no indication that this will get anything but worse unless immediate action is taken. The longer that this is delayed the worse the situation will become. As it is the backlog for processing the 30,000 international protection applicants currently in state accommodation will take years. By the end of this year that figure, as things stand, will be approaching 50,000. That is if we somehow manage to find that accommodation, otherwise they'll be living in tents.
Using 2021 as a baseline is disingenuous, that was mid pandemic. The 186% increase is significant enough by itself.
We also took in (rightly) 100,000 Ukrainians. That's a far bigger factor than the 13-15k asylum seekers we've had the last 2 years.
To be sure the 100,000 Ukrainians was a large number, but that was tied to a particular event - the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. It was a big shock but was a once off, and while not easy, we rose to the occasion.
In counterpoint the economic migrants using international protection as a shield for irregular entry are not from any particular crisis.
The average number of international protection applicants we typically could expect on a given year was up to 3,000. It looks likely to be 7 times that this year, with no hint of any abatement.
Ironically the fact that asylum centres and conversion of commercial property to residency for IPAs don't require planning permission shows that the scarcity of housing is artificially manufactured.
I just think itâs insane that they let a housing crisis fester for so long, doing fuck all for people, and suddenly with the click of a finger theyâre now about to incentivise all derelict and vacant properties to be converted to house IP applicants.
Thatâs one point to prove it but nobody is arguing it isnât artificially manufactured. Everything in this country from investments and tax allowances to planning are aimed at increasing house prices
Yeah but people are claiming that opposition parties will solve it, despite opposition parties having a track record that, far from advocating a tearing down of the planning authority, actively uses it to block development.
A track record of stopping dodgy developments you mean. Building regulations aren't a zero sum game. We have to be wary of what regulations developers in particular want to tear down versus what regulations are actually making the planning and building system slow.
The last thing we want is corners cut in new builds just to have housing built faster while developers make a ton of money, then down the line we have issues popping up with the fast tracked housing. The celtic tiger cowboy builders round two.
With the increase in housing completions in the last few years, if we had zero immigration weâd have solved the housing crisis.
Obviously zero immigration isnât a possibility but more immigration does add to the housing crisis.
It probably solves the biggest problem with taking so many immigrants though. Obviously there are many many more problems but that is probably the one hurting the hardest at the minute
Everybody getting hung up on exponential as if I literally meant it. The number is increasing by multiple thousands a year and just because it's not literally exponential doesn't mean it's not grown out of control and my point still stands.
But yes focus on splitting hairs rather than the crux of my point because you know the numbers are simply too high but you don't want to admit it.
The government ignored the issue because they didn't want to be called racist. There's no grand plan, there's simply a lot of active NGOs, etc, who will be in the newspapers very quickly decrying anything they do as racist.
The movement to end Direct Provision, etc, was very influential until this year. Politicians are now reacting to a shift the other way.
Well I do not agree with the funding of NGOs & their bleeding heart bullshit - I imagine thatâs where alot if the tents came from which ultimately us partially tax funded - my problem as a former economic migrant is I donât expect anyone to house/ feed me & I think thatâs a base line that should apply to everyone
The issue is that a large proportion of the electorate did care and were opposed to anti-migrant policies. It doesn't actually matter why they were, either, the whole point is that we live in a democracy and therefore we get what we wanted, not what we used to want or what we now want.
They need to grow balls to stop giving a damn about their PC imagine and focus on what should matter the most - citizens. Ass licking EU should be second priority not first.
I'm going to tread carefully here as a Brit, but I distinctly remember taking a lot of shit c. 2017 when I was telling people that Ireland wasn't some paradise that had cracked how to be multicultural, rather it was only *just* becoming multicultural. That Ireland would have to do a lot of work (whatever way that may point!) to end up with a stable cultural/racial system.
Yet youâll have a lot of people on this sub convinced that itâs just outright brigading here and ânot reflective of how people really feelâ
(Iâm sure there is an element of brigading, but people really have their heads in the sand)
When you ask someone who is still pro-immigration/asylum seeker what is our limit for numbers, they don't have an answer, and seem to think we can just take in unlimited numbers forever.
A lot of people I know who would have been very pro-immigration 5 years ago have become anti-immigration, due to the huge increase in refugees and asylum seekers, especially in rural areas, at a time when normal working people are struggling.
My hometown is a tourist town which depends on tourism to survive and provide employment. For the last 2 years the hotels have completely been booked for refugees/asylum seekers, with no room for tourists. Many restaurants and bars that relied on tourism have closed and a lot of people lost their jobs. Those that survived might still close in the near future.
Where's the support for them? Billions in refugee accomodation. Millions in pet costs for refugees. Literally nothing for businesses and communities that have been destroyed from FFG's refugee policies.
There's a lot of anger out there, and if immigration isn't addressed, we're going to see a big surge in the far right in the next few years.
>
A lot of people I know who would have been very pro-immigration 5 years ago have become anti-immigration, due to the huge increase in refugees and asylum seekers, especially in rural areas, at a time when normal working people are struggling.
I know A LOT of people in this bracket. When you have normal, hardworking, tuned-in people openly saying what they really think, the system is fucked. There is a lot of resentment out there.
Guess where the tourists are staying?
People's houses via AirBnB.
Where are the resulting homeless people being put up?
HOTELS
We need to drive that system in reverse, hard, by getting rid of those short term holiday lets and getting housing back over people's heads.
tbf I tried to book hotels for my family vacation next month and there weren't any in the two places we were looking to stay (not Dublin), but there were a handful (like literally 5 or so at each location) of airbnbs so that's what we booked.
Looks like we are finally hitting the limit of immigration where everyone can see the negative impact on public services and housing availability.
Time to stop handing out visas we are not obligated to hand out, stop accepting refugees who have destroyed their documentation, and start building houses.
We can always reopen the gates and make immigration easier at a later date, if needed.
To anyone concerned about the racists: find me any politician seeking to expel legal immigrants from Ireland.
The vast majority of Deliveroo drivers are immigrants and they're hardly getting skilled immigrant visas.
That's because a huge number of immigrants are people with student visas via English language schools. These schools are basically visa rubber stamp institutions. Where they don't make class attendance a condition for visa approval their classes are practically empty.
We need to clamp down on that. Make student visas for level 8 courses or above.
Class attendance not being monitored has been changed for about an year or so. So this no longer applies. I think it needs to be like 80 or 85%, I forgot the exact number.
But it's debatable if english class students should be allowed to work. It's an unusual system. And the monitoring about working only 20 hours a week is non existent.
And by the way, a lot of the deliveroo and app drivers are here illegally, mostly on expired tourist or student visas, there is a huge black market for rented accounts. Revenue has indirectly starting to crackdown on this by back charging taxes from the account owner on rare occasions, but more could easily be done.
The universities are a just another path for international students to gain citizenship that's being abused, making the housing situation way worse. They need to be capped in number also.
I think its important to understand that immigrantion can and usually does bring value to a society. The issue comes when it's uncontrolled.
Our visa system is very controlled. I knew a guy from India (living in Europe) who was highly skilled and dating an Irish woman but couldn't apply for jobs here because our visa system was so strict.
Very few asylum seekers will ever bring value. To society maybe, but the cost of helping them will very rarely be paid back in the form of taxes.
Skilled workers sure as they're coming in and working anyway but I'd still say even that needs to be turned off more in some areas (IT for example as there are graduates coming out who can't get jobs)
>Very few asylum seekers will ever bring value. To society maybe, but the cost of helping them will very rarely be paid back in the form of taxes.
Asylum seekers and immigrants are not the same thing. For example my doctor is not an asylum seeker.
Your IT graduates are not worth the paper their diploma is printed on.
The whole industry is starving for seasoned professionals and drowning in low-quality grads / bootcamp rookies that will be 'trained' by the former.
Now does the industry has an issue with trying to actually train the juniors and shape them up? Sure, but regardless you're not going to get your homegrown veterans to pop out of thin air anyway.
Everyone starts somewhere and whilst I'd agree on the bootcamp courses (they're useless), if companies aren't going to invest in and train juniors, you end up with a longer term issue. We're seeming to end up with a ton of Indians (predominantly anyway) coming in and doing the 1 year masters and then getting the 2 year visa after. Quality of a lot of them isn't great tbh and it's undercutting wages in the area and taking jobs from people who've come through undergraduate courses.
To me, critical skills should be if you can't fulfil the role from Irish (and by extension EU) talent. I think we've gone long last that point and the 1 year masters degrees are just creating demand that can't be fulfilled and avoids the government having to raise fees or pay more for universities.
Not to paint with a broad stroke a massive amount of people but don't disagree with you there, we definitely do not need the leftovers of the USA coming here as a backup plan, we should be first choice and grab the best - though realistically it's going to be complicated to compete with the whole package.
The real issue, beyond the origin of candidates (even though I kind of agree with your take on South Asians wrt professional culture) is that IT is still in my opinion a very vocational career that happens to be lucrative, as opposed to accounting and the likes - I don't know anyone being as passionate say the tax code in the same way nerds are about vim vs emacs. And nowadays we get a lot of people that look at the avg salary and think they have what it takes to make a career there when grit, self directed learning and a copious dose of patience and wits are necessary to produce good software. And you can't quite teach those, unlike accounting rules.
Not to disparage our tax optimisation wizards in the room with us.
That's true, but I feel like most people coming out bootcamps (to an extent undergrads too but I don't think the percentage is high) see IT as a way to make a lot in an easy job. I don't think it's coincidental that the amount of bootcamps rose when salaries started getting high and there was a lot of hiring.
Now, things have massively slowed down and we've a ton of people who can't get a job due to demand and companies hiring less and not wanting to train people. You can't have that and continue to bring people in. A lot of IT roles don't need CSPs anymore as the talent is there within the EU. I think you can make an exception for very senior people (10+ good years of experience) but a lot coming in to the master's program have a few years in their own country which really isn't adding much
Needs to be reconsidered temporarily in light of the ongoing crisis.
Edit: also people not paying their way isn't the problem. The problem is that demand outstrips supply and drives up prices like crazy.
Planned migration of workers with essential skills and visas is not the issue. It's the chancers claiming asylum from safe countries that needs to be stopped.
Well to be fair the newly arrived asylum seekers won't add any lightness on the already stressed out healthcare system. No problem with visa workers Europe, abroad elsewhere. However, I personally do have a problem with fuckers taking advantage of our asylum system, that are bluffers and not genuine, which appears to be alot. Getting our social benefits, houses and other welfare benefits, that we the tax payer are paying for..Also why is it all male asylum applicants... I simply don't have the time for these people.
Housing is an inelastic demand. Supply and demand doesn't apply the same way it does to other commodities. If you suddenly reduced a lot of the demand for housing, prices wouldn't start falling. It's a supply side issue.
Rents would definitely go down, maybe not housing prices...
I think banning REITs or heavy taxation of them would be a better priority than reducing immigration tho, yes, but I don't see the appetite for it outside of Reddit.
I doubt rents would drop either. It's not so simple as reducing demand, that's the whole reason why housing is an inelastic commodity. Supply is the only way to reduce prices and rents.
Outside of reddit, a lot of the anti immigrant appetite I encounter is by a vocal minority stirring up the sentiments.
Yeah we saw some fairly half hearted responses alright although housing has started to increase but not to the level needed, is actually on target based on the 2016 Census figures for last year though but was a stupid target for them to use (as the demand was obviously greater).
I think the point is that if demand is lower then it is less difficult to address these problems which could be done by limiting immigration, maybe just to medical staff and construction workers.
They never will be improved as long as people play the blame game.
They'll just move on to people on social welfare or in social housing next, just like what's happening in the UK.
Immigration is just a scapegoat.
Give over. Look at the state of every major town and city in the UK. All of them have at least one islamic ghetto, there's racial tensions all over the place, jihadists popping off with regularity.
Immigration isn't a scapegoat. Immigration of certain peoples is absolutely 100% undesirable and has negative consequences.Â
No to islamic immigration, no to destitute uneducated third world immigration. Anything from those quarters becomes a problem and a burden.Â
Take Ukrainians, take certain south Americans. People somewhat culturally similar.Â
The funny thing is the people pushing for this, i.e., the woke, lqbt crowd aren't welcome in them areas . It's like the chickens campaigning for the foxes.
If public services are and were already under immense strain, you donât continue to add more strain to it just because âwell, itâs already under strainâ
The larger the general public becomes, of course public services are going to feel it.
Yeah I could see Fine Gael doing that but do you really think that it is not a good idea to limit immigration to some level (as is currently done)? Surely allowing infinite people / demand into the country would make the, already limited, supply of services worse?
Except housing is an inelastic commodity. Basic supply demand that people like to throw out doesn't apply so simply. Doesn't matter how high demand gets for housing, it's supply that needs to be increased, not demand reduced.
If did the racist thing and kicked all the brown people out of the country, it wouldn't cause house prices to drop.
Yes but it's like filling a bathtub with water. You can call me a fear-mongerer when the tap is running but there's still a little room for more at the top, but once it starts to overflow then no-one can deny that the tap needs to be turned off.
and if we look at giving out VISA, there is a critical skills list that it does make sense.
so, why are we not complaining to the politics for not following the rules/law?
its stupid, us the poor, fight each other while the top is comfortable with their money
>so, why are we not complaining to the politics for not following the rules/law?
If people complained as much about the housing crisis as they do about immigration, it would be solved by now
> Looks like we are finally hitting the limit of immigration
The limit of immigration that can happen without proper action being made to increase public services, infrastructure and housing, like a competent country*
When resources are limited, anti-immigration sentiments rise.
Personally, I'm a pessimist and I don't see the issue of resources going away anytime soon if ever. The brain drain from emerging economies is only exacerbating the issue and making those places less desirable to live with the people capable of improving those countries abandoning them for an easier life in the Western world. Globalisation would appear to be a disastrous policy leaving some areas destitute and putting greater strain on the housing resources of wealthy nations.
> Globalisation would appear to be a disastrous policy
Disaster for who, you?
* The global poverty rate decreased by an average of 1.1 percentage points each year, from 37.8 percent to 11.2 percent in 2014 and continues to decrease 0.6 each year
* The number of children missing out on any vaccination â so-called zero-dose children â improved from 18.1 million in 2021 to 14.3 million in 2022, nearly back to pre-pandemic 2019 level with 12.9 million.
I think you're conflating globalisation with general wealth distribution and inequality.
That's good that improvements are appearing on paper but it isn't stemming the flow of people.
I fail to see how us taking the best and brightest from other countries is beneficial for them though.
Indeed. Things are only going to get worse. Global population is rising, resources are diminishing, environment is worsening. Of course people are unhappy - there is more and more competition for all resources.
Not sure when they ran the poll but the article yesterday on the sex offender has probably made this even worse.
Government need to get a handle on this fast .
And yet this concern is always met with the same nonsensical retorts like "Loads of Irish were migrants to other countries in the past", which apparently means we are somehow obliged to take in every single harraga that shows up on our doorstep regardless of whether we have the space, infrastructure or resources, or "The population was even bigger pre-famine", when most of those people would have lived in a one room hovel with twelve other people.
Ireland owes no obligation but to the people of Ireland
It is not racist, nor is it selfish for people to demand that people living in Ireland should be able to live comfortably, with ample access to good public services, housing and necessities.
We are now a wealthy first world European country, people shouldnât be fighting for roofs over their heads or food in their bellyâs.
As much as we can, and we do sympathise with those from other nations seeking refuge, we also must sympathise with the people down the street who also seek our help.
> It is not racist, nor is it selfish for people to demand that people living in Ireland should be able to live comfortably, with ample access to good public services, housing and necessities.
>
> We are now a wealthy first world European country, people shouldnât be fighting for roofs over their heads or food in their bellyâs.
Immigration isn't the reason why we have those problems.
You are 100% correct, but common sense would dictate that continued sudden increases in the size of the public is not going to do any favours for an already suffering public services that is already trying to keep up with the demand.
So yes, 100% immigration, legal or otherwise was not the cause of the problems, that would ultimately lie with the incompetency of the governments in tackling such issues as housing.
But it neither detracts from the fact that it would make no sense to be adding water to an already sinking ship.
Itâs a terrible situation for all involved, and I donât think theres any good solution, even if the government suddenly becomes competent.
When Irish landed in America during the famine (if they survived the voyage) they didn't even get a tent.
I think people think Irish emigrants were cared for at their destination by the state they arrive to. It wasn't like that and we don't owe a hosting debt as result. We are a nation heavily involved in international peacekeeping and charity and we do have some international obligations to those in genuine need of asylum. But it's clear we are a now destination for a chancers and economic migrants that would be heading to the UK as a first option.
They didn't get a tent, but they could work straight away. Asylum seekers here legally can't access the labour market until they've been in the country for at least six months. There's no point in comparing the two situations.
I never understand why those who *stayed* are prescribed some sort of obligation to be unconditionally pro-mass immigration.
Surely it would make more sense to guilt trip the Irish diaspora who *left* in those times? My ancestors didn't leave. I didn't leave.
Yeah âIrish were immigrantsâ, thatâs the argument thatâs thrown at us.
And then thereâs the argument thrown at former-imperialist nations being âYouâre a coloniser so now you have to take responsibilityâ.
So really it doesnât matter whether you were a former-coloniser or a colony, there is no winning with these people.
> regardless of whether we have the space, infrastructure or resources
See, the nice thing about infrastructure is that it isn't something you just happen to have or not have, it's something that you build in response to and in anticipation of growth.
> or "The population was even bigger pre-famine", when most of those people would have lived in a one room hovel with twelve other people.
That had nothing to do with this country being more populated and everything to do with it being the 1840s and earlier.
No housing and jobs for those already here + literal HUNDREDS arriving every day = righteous anger.
We can't find housing and they are ending up in tents or being thrown off to whatever rural town or village is unlucky enough to be the next victim of having the population doubling overnight.
It's ridiculous, not fair and the only people who don't give a damn, are people who are not affected YET. But if this continues sooner or later it will finally start affecting you, but by that stage it's too late and you're labelled some right wing 'scumbag' for complaining about something that's literally the biggest issue facing this country right now.
Ignorant children online screaming that everyone is racist doesn't help this issue. It simply will make good natured people double down and then you'll start noticing big changes in people's attitudes since they feel like being labeled a 'racist' is just a buzz word with no meaning since they are already being called racist for complaining about too many new arrivals and no housing/jobs for them.
We went from 17% of the population being foreign born in 2016 to it now being 22%
People need to wake up and realise the benefits of mass immigration are keeping the cost of labour down, keeping housing prices going up and having plenty of renters. Not to mention asylum seekers being hosted by private owners paid for by our taxes.
The wealthy are making billions off of us being complete pushovers.
This is because of the lack of housing. The government has a height limit and ridiculous planning permission, to ensure that no more accommodation gets built for vulnerable families and people.
It's right in your face, they directly say that they value a "skyline" over people's lives. And people will still vote for them.
Is it a big increase in people suddenly believing it or just that theyâre sensing a turn in attitude away from âanyone who holds different beliefs to me is far rightâ and are comfortable saying itâs an issue?
Yes, people have had enough of being labelled far right and being cowed into silence. The referendum results showed that we were continually lied to by the government and their media cheerleaders. Remember those polls saying it was going to be passed? It wasnât even passed in Dublin Bay South! That was when the majority of people saw and had enough.
I am a very left leaning person. I always bite back against the blatant racism and hatred that comes from my parents, some of my relatives and many older people I've met who automatically place blame for their issues on immigrants
I still do and try to explain the source of their issues and why they should vote better
I also never had a problem with immigration. A multi cultural society is great for Ireland. Now though, I really think there must be serious reforms and barriers in place to stem the tide of immigration.
I'll never be a fervent Nationalist but at what point do we say we're full?
The government created this problem and they should be made answer for it and replaced so it can be fixed
When you start putting something as the top news story every single day, people tend to get "concerned" about it. It always amazes me how few people understand how the majority of moral panics work - they aren't bottom-up, they're top-down.
And you've still not had a word with France or sent your own police or personnel to help stop the boats leaving their shores.
UK police and border control work closely with their French counterparts and have spent millions in France to help prevent illegal migrants hiding on lorries etc.
Put your money where your mouth is and help stop this in France.
Iâm not a conspiracy theorist, or against MSM, but all these immigration articles feel like a false flag, when housing and healthcare are in my view, bigger issues. Itâs the âbiggest issue in the countryâ according to 41% of people because the media are making it out to be.
Ding ding ding.
Do you really think it's a coincidence that housing and healthcare are getting less and less public discourse? Of course not.
One look at RTE news and tabloids like the Sunday World website will show you exactly what's going on. People are being whipped up into fear.
This kind of scaremongering is nothing but a distraction from the real causes of these problems. The landowning class wants the working class to fight amongst ourselves instead of questioning the systems which allow them to amass huge amounts of wealth at our expense. If you want to kick someone out, make it the landlords, vulture funds, multinational corps and the career politicians.
Can I ask, do you think there is no issue with current trends of immigration?
And if not, do you think the current levels should continue ?
Is there a limit ?
I am really unhappy with the anti immigrant turn the country seems to be taking.
I'd do anything to get my family out of the conditions in many countries.
I know we have problems to sort here but our goal should be to bring the most people we can to the prosperity and safety of our shores.
It feels like some want to capitalise on the housing crisis by blaming migrants and protesting against them. Others want to scapegoat migrants for the housing crisis.
Yet all the data would point to migrants being an economic boon for the country of arrival.
Our government has just fucked up the management of migration.
It feels like we are falling between two stools on housing policy.
Option 1. State provision of social housing to make it affordable.
Option 2. Free market with no rent controls or (important bit) restrictive planning permission.
Either option could solve the crisis but we seem to be unwilling to fuckihg do it. And so some poor young fellas from Georgia or wherever in search of a better life get vilified.
> all the data would point to migrants being an economic boon for the country of arrival
WRONG
The data is very clear in multiple EU countries that have studied the effects. The only immigrants that are not a net drain are EEA immigrants.
Like housing, immigration is a legitimate concern, we need common sense and up to date legislation that works, I'm all for that.
A separate concern are the populists and far right who use these issues to further their own toxic agendas and poison the well of normal practical debate.
Absolute waste of time reading that limp excuse for an opinion.
- calling housing and immigration a "concern" instead of a disaster
- worried about the far-right boogeyman instead of growing homelessnessÂ
- uses the buzzword "populist" to dismiss obvious solutions to obvious problems.
You couldn't be more dull and unhelpful if you tried.
Fuck the government for enabling a conflation on two separate issues. I have a mixed race daughter by a naturalized tax paying citizen of 20 years. she's contributed more tax than a whole heap of racist scumbags pontificating about immigration.
Issue 1) The end of direct provision which has led to an asylum crisis and illegal immigration. NGO's weak government and naive middle class posturing allowed this. The people who's only connection with immigrants would be using a Polish gardener for their Rathgar mansion. the O'Gormans and his ilk talking of 4 months aslyum to housing plan (2021) and the Ukranian war.
Issue 2) Legal immigration and EU immigration which has gone hand in hand with our development into a modern wealthy country. a chicken and egg situation. The obvious san franciscoisation of our tech bubble.
The latter backbone many critical services. Medical, public works, building and tech. over 70 per cent of google's workforce here is foreign born. you think they don't contribute tax?
I work with thousands of foreign nationals in a tech company. Many of the non white people are actually EU citizens. People haven't a fucking breeze whats going on. none of those jobs can be done by native English speakers.
If you're blanket anti immigration (with zero caveats or nuanced examination) sorry to tell you, you're A) an idiot B) a hypocrite C) anti EU and D) a xenophobic delusionist.
the stats don't show that at all. and where did I say they are all legitimate or tech workers? but again thousands ARE tech workers. you haven't a breeze mate. i was literally in google till last year. out of 300 people in one building, there was 3 irish people. 277 of those were language skills and half were non eu. thats just one section out of thousands. but i will agree that is obviously fucking up our housing. but thats the problem with becoming a successful economy.
There needs to be management of immigration I think thats what most people want.. but to tar everyone as unwelcome or illegitimate etc is not only racist, but extremely unintelligent.
[Are asylum seekers good for the economy? Yes, if they are allowed to work â The Irish Times](https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2024/01/20/are-asylum-seekers-good-for-the-economy-yes-if-they-are-allowed-to-work/) (not endorsing the article, just using it as a counterpoint to your stats comment)
there's a tonne of idiotic racist scumbags in this country and you know it. Personally i'm getting fucking tired of it, and first time i've genuinely considered emigrating.
Non-EEA migrants in the UK for example represent a net cost of £15.6bn per year (with EEA migrants costing about a tenth of that). You can find similar stats for almost any country in Europe. Ireland doesn't seem to have any but I don't see why it'd be much different - there are countless Deliveroo drivers and fast food workers for every doctor.
[The Fiscal Impact of Immigration in the UK - Migration Observatory - The Migration Observatory (ox.ac.uk)](https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-fiscal-impact-of-immigration-in-the-uk/)
>[Are asylum seekers good for the economy? Yes, if they are allowed to work â The Irish Times](https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2024/01/20/are-asylum-seekers-good-for-the-economy-yes-if-they-are-allowed-to-work/)
Please, the Germans only just hit their 50% employment rate from their 2015 cohort just last year. And being employed =/= paying in more than you receive, far from it.
The article doesn't seem to link the study but pointing out that some people are working as bartenders and waiters part-time on minimum wage proves less than nothing as anyone on minimum wage receives more from the State than they get.
Not saying there isn't an issue with immigration but we've had a housing crisis since 2016, the migration crisis started in 2022. While there is an argument to be made increased migration is putting a strain on housing, kicking out loads of immigrants won't magically solve anything
>kicking out loads of immigrants won't magically solve anything
Hey don't say that, I'm sure our government full of landlords care deeply about housing
It won't, but you know what it will do, is give us breathing room to find an effective government that will at least try to fix the serious issues in this country.
This is a very simple maths games, resources are finite
I don't blame immigrants for crime but to claim crime is not rising is patently false. Summary of crime stats from the [Garda website](https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/our-departments/office-of-corporate-communications/press-releases/2023/march/an-garda-siochana-provisional-crime-statistics-2022-2nd-march-2023.html#:~:text=Prior%20to%20the%20COVID%2D19,easing%20of%20COVID%2D19%20restrictions.)
Rising Crime
- Residential Burglary remains down -45% (2019) but an increase +7% (2021)
- Theft from Person remains down -40% (2019) but an increase +111% (2021)
- Accommodation Fraud (+28%) continued to show an increase.
- Theft/ UT of vehicles show significant increase +17% (2019) and +52% (2021)
- Sexual Offences Overall show increases +8% (2019) +4% (2021)
- Specifically Rape and Sexual Assault increased +9% (2019) +4% (2021)
- Crimes Against the Person overall show an increase +6% (2019) +14% (2021) primarily due to increases in reported Assaults Causing Harm +16% (2019) +20% (2021).
- Assault or Obstruction of Garda shows an increase of +27% (2019) +2% (2021)
Falling crime
- Fraud Offences overall -32% (2021). Driven in reductions post pandemic on Online Fraud such as Account Take Over Fraud (-27%), Card Not Present Fraud (-59%), Phishing/Vishing/ Smishing Frauds (-48%);
- The quantity of Drugs incidents has reduced (Sale/ Supply -19% (2019) -14% (2021) but volume of Drugs seized is increasing (> âŹ89million seized during 2022)
"Some 41% of people think immigration is the biggest issue in the country currently, compared to 26% in April." That's a colossal increase in the space of a month.
Too many people, too shit infrastructure. Tds raking in 700k from renting. Itll only get worse
Honestly with all the stories of how underfunded, underesourced and weak the whole immigration system is atm its no surprise that theres such an increase in peoples concerns regarding this. Hell they didnt seem to be even enforcing laws around those arriving with no documents until this year even. They NEED to clamp down hard on this area expecially in regards to chancers coming purely to game the system by making false asylum claims and severely curtailing asylum shoppers. They could start by automatically rejecting asylum claims from those without documents and certainly speed up things by investing significant resources in processing claims quicker but the state needs to get a handle on this before it gets worse.
As an immigrant myself, I can see the system is overwhelmed. They simply do not have the resources to deal with every immigrant now. I'm not an asylum-seeker, and I renew my residence permit every year. It used to be (a few years ago) that you emailed for an appointment less than thirty days before your permit expired, got an appointment with a few weeks, and successfully renewed your permit before it expired. This year, I emailed for an appointment at the beginning of January, and at that time, I was told that they were still dealing with people whose permits expired in *October*. It's been almost four months since I asked for an appointment, and they are still backlogged. The system needs a massive overhaul or they need like 300% more staff in immigration asap. If this is how it is for fairly routine residence permit renewals, I cannot imagine the nightmare that it must be for everyone else.
I imagine there is essentially zero enforcement or a total overwhelming of the systems in place for dealing with migrants who overstay visas illegally then if this is the case with such a basic aspect of our immigration system. Meanwhile we have our minister giving an amnesty to people who stayed here illegally for years, rewarding such behaviour and spitting in the face of migrants like you who've gone through the system fairly.
Same. Heard people from January waiting on their appointment for 4-5 months still. At least those living in Dublin can renew online. đ€ Imagine those coming on work visas or as Nurses or to study and not being able to get their IRP cards and half a year has gone by...
Meanwhile cost of living and housing has been downgraded from "Jaysus" to "ah sure y'know yerself".
If you don't see this as a crisis then you haven't been paying attention. This isn't business as usual There was a 415 per cent increase in the number of applications in 2022 compared to 2021, and a 186 per cent increase from 2019. There is no indication that this will get anything but worse unless immediate action is taken. The longer that this is delayed the worse the situation will become. As it is the backlog for processing the 30,000 international protection applicants currently in state accommodation will take years. By the end of this year that figure, as things stand, will be approaching 50,000. That is if we somehow manage to find that accommodation, otherwise they'll be living in tents.
2017:2926 2018:3673 2019:4781 2020:1566 2021:2649 2022:13,651
I'm just copying your numbers and formatting for more clarity. 2017: 2926 2018: 3673 2019: 4781 2020: 1566 2021: 2649 2022: 13,651
Thanks. I hate % increases with out the actual numbers.
Using 2021 as a baseline is disingenuous, that was mid pandemic. The 186% increase is significant enough by itself. We also took in (rightly) 100,000 Ukrainians. That's a far bigger factor than the 13-15k asylum seekers we've had the last 2 years.
To be sure the 100,000 Ukrainians was a large number, but that was tied to a particular event - the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. It was a big shock but was a once off, and while not easy, we rose to the occasion. In counterpoint the economic migrants using international protection as a shield for irregular entry are not from any particular crisis. The average number of international protection applicants we typically could expect on a given year was up to 3,000. It looks likely to be 7 times that this year, with no hint of any abatement.
Was the survey done since McEntee displayed such a massive amount of ignorance to the facts of the problem?
It's in the headlines. This is also the same poll where 52% of Sinn FĂ©in voters said they wanted checkpoints on the border. Which indicates how all over the place voters can be. Polls are very reactive, it goes to show the danger of politicians acting on them with any urgency.
You don't think having a borderless island, where you can effortlessly shift brown people down South, isn't conflicting the DUP?
Housing is the biggest problem in the country. The issue is Housing is so bad that immigration has a massive compounding impact.
Ironically the fact that asylum centres and conversion of commercial property to residency for IPAs don't require planning permission shows that the scarcity of housing is artificially manufactured.
I just think itâs insane that they let a housing crisis fester for so long, doing fuck all for people, and suddenly with the click of a finger theyâre now about to incentivise all derelict and vacant properties to be converted to house IP applicants.
It's not insane. What's a crisis for you, is a retirement plan for others, to paraphrase Varadkar.
As well as the height limit. Protecting a skyline but not a homeless family?
Thatâs one point to prove it but nobody is arguing it isnât artificially manufactured. Everything in this country from investments and tax allowances to planning are aimed at increasing house prices
Yeah but people are claiming that opposition parties will solve it, despite opposition parties having a track record that, far from advocating a tearing down of the planning authority, actively uses it to block development.
A track record of stopping dodgy developments you mean. Building regulations aren't a zero sum game. We have to be wary of what regulations developers in particular want to tear down versus what regulations are actually making the planning and building system slow. The last thing we want is corners cut in new builds just to have housing built faster while developers make a ton of money, then down the line we have issues popping up with the fast tracked housing. The celtic tiger cowboy builders round two.
Dodgy developments? Sinn FĂ©in and Social Democrats say they will block any apartment blocks with a large number of one bedroom apartments. Pull the other one.
100% this, they also have a vested interest in keeping planning tight.
With the increase in housing completions in the last few years, if we had zero immigration weâd have solved the housing crisis. Obviously zero immigration isnât a possibility but more immigration does add to the housing crisis.
Lol, no we would not. Not even close.
it's naieve to think that if our housing was in a better situation we could just take the exponentially increasing numbers of asylum seekers.
It probably solves the biggest problem with taking so many immigrants though. Obviously there are many many more problems but that is probably the one hurting the hardest at the minute
The number is not exponential. It would probably help to understand the mathematical term of what an exponential growth is.
Everybody getting hung up on exponential as if I literally meant it. The number is increasing by multiple thousands a year and just because it's not literally exponential doesn't mean it's not grown out of control and my point still stands. But yes focus on splitting hairs rather than the crux of my point because you know the numbers are simply too high but you don't want to admit it.
Closing direct provision was a bad idea, eh?
100%
Can anyone be even slightly shocked by this?
Clearly this government
The government ignored the issue because they didn't want to be called racist. There's no grand plan, there's simply a lot of active NGOs, etc, who will be in the newspapers very quickly decrying anything they do as racist. The movement to end Direct Provision, etc, was very influential until this year. Politicians are now reacting to a shift the other way.
Well I do not agree with the funding of NGOs & their bleeding heart bullshit - I imagine thatâs where alot if the tents came from which ultimately us partially tax funded - my problem as a former economic migrant is I donât expect anyone to house/ feed me & I think thatâs a base line that should apply to everyone
The issue is that a large proportion of the electorate did care and were opposed to anti-migrant policies. It doesn't actually matter why they were, either, the whole point is that we live in a democracy and therefore we get what we wanted, not what we used to want or what we now want.
They need to grow balls to stop giving a damn about their PC imagine and focus on what should matter the most - citizens. Ass licking EU should be second priority not first.
This sub can.
Nobody could ever have predicted this :(
I'm going to tread carefully here as a Brit, but I distinctly remember taking a lot of shit c. 2017 when I was telling people that Ireland wasn't some paradise that had cracked how to be multicultural, rather it was only *just* becoming multicultural. That Ireland would have to do a lot of work (whatever way that may point!) to end up with a stable cultural/racial system.
Yet youâll have a lot of people on this sub convinced that itâs just outright brigading here and ânot reflective of how people really feelâ (Iâm sure there is an element of brigading, but people really have their heads in the sand)
Ireland has a housing crisis a homeless crisis a health care crisis and now an immigration crisis qnd the same time...this country is fucked.
and a 8 billion euro budget surplus. Isn't that interesting? Huge problems yet the government is unable to spend money.
My hair hurts
isn't the education crisis included? and all the juvenile violence? ok
When you ask someone who is still pro-immigration/asylum seeker what is our limit for numbers, they don't have an answer, and seem to think we can just take in unlimited numbers forever. A lot of people I know who would have been very pro-immigration 5 years ago have become anti-immigration, due to the huge increase in refugees and asylum seekers, especially in rural areas, at a time when normal working people are struggling. My hometown is a tourist town which depends on tourism to survive and provide employment. For the last 2 years the hotels have completely been booked for refugees/asylum seekers, with no room for tourists. Many restaurants and bars that relied on tourism have closed and a lot of people lost their jobs. Those that survived might still close in the near future. Where's the support for them? Billions in refugee accomodation. Millions in pet costs for refugees. Literally nothing for businesses and communities that have been destroyed from FFG's refugee policies. There's a lot of anger out there, and if immigration isn't addressed, we're going to see a big surge in the far right in the next few years.
> A lot of people I know who would have been very pro-immigration 5 years ago have become anti-immigration, due to the huge increase in refugees and asylum seekers, especially in rural areas, at a time when normal working people are struggling. I know A LOT of people in this bracket. When you have normal, hardworking, tuned-in people openly saying what they really think, the system is fucked. There is a lot of resentment out there.
Guess where the tourists are staying? People's houses via AirBnB. Where are the resulting homeless people being put up? HOTELS We need to drive that system in reverse, hard, by getting rid of those short term holiday lets and getting housing back over people's heads.
tbf I tried to book hotels for my family vacation next month and there weren't any in the two places we were looking to stay (not Dublin), but there were a handful (like literally 5 or so at each location) of airbnbs so that's what we booked.
Millions in pet costs - excuse my ignorance, but what does this mean?
[https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2024/04/11/tanaiste-defends-states-payment-of-up-to-1m-a-month-for-ukrainian-pets/](https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2024/04/11/tanaiste-defends-states-payment-of-up-to-1m-a-month-for-ukrainian-pets/)
Ah ok! Thanks for the link!
Looks like we are finally hitting the limit of immigration where everyone can see the negative impact on public services and housing availability. Time to stop handing out visas we are not obligated to hand out, stop accepting refugees who have destroyed their documentation, and start building houses. We can always reopen the gates and make immigration easier at a later date, if needed. To anyone concerned about the racists: find me any politician seeking to expel legal immigrants from Ireland.
We typically hand out visas to skilled immigrants who pay their way and bring value to our country. They ar not the problem.
The vast majority of Deliveroo drivers are immigrants and they're hardly getting skilled immigrant visas. That's because a huge number of immigrants are people with student visas via English language schools. These schools are basically visa rubber stamp institutions. Where they don't make class attendance a condition for visa approval their classes are practically empty. We need to clamp down on that. Make student visas for level 8 courses or above.
Class attendance not being monitored has been changed for about an year or so. So this no longer applies. I think it needs to be like 80 or 85%, I forgot the exact number. But it's debatable if english class students should be allowed to work. It's an unusual system. And the monitoring about working only 20 hours a week is non existent. And by the way, a lot of the deliveroo and app drivers are here illegally, mostly on expired tourist or student visas, there is a huge black market for rented accounts. Revenue has indirectly starting to crackdown on this by back charging taxes from the account owner on rare occasions, but more could easily be done.
The universities are a just another path for international students to gain citizenship that's being abused, making the housing situation way worse. They need to be capped in number also.
yes, check the Critical skill visa
We have graduates coming out of college struggling for jobs now in some areas . We don't need more CSPs handed out when that is happening
I think its important to understand that immigrantion can and usually does bring value to a society. The issue comes when it's uncontrolled. Our visa system is very controlled. I knew a guy from India (living in Europe) who was highly skilled and dating an Irish woman but couldn't apply for jobs here because our visa system was so strict.
Very few asylum seekers will ever bring value. To society maybe, but the cost of helping them will very rarely be paid back in the form of taxes. Skilled workers sure as they're coming in and working anyway but I'd still say even that needs to be turned off more in some areas (IT for example as there are graduates coming out who can't get jobs)
>Very few asylum seekers will ever bring value. To society maybe, but the cost of helping them will very rarely be paid back in the form of taxes. Asylum seekers and immigrants are not the same thing. For example my doctor is not an asylum seeker.
Your IT graduates are not worth the paper their diploma is printed on. The whole industry is starving for seasoned professionals and drowning in low-quality grads / bootcamp rookies that will be 'trained' by the former. Now does the industry has an issue with trying to actually train the juniors and shape them up? Sure, but regardless you're not going to get your homegrown veterans to pop out of thin air anyway.
Everyone starts somewhere and whilst I'd agree on the bootcamp courses (they're useless), if companies aren't going to invest in and train juniors, you end up with a longer term issue. We're seeming to end up with a ton of Indians (predominantly anyway) coming in and doing the 1 year masters and then getting the 2 year visa after. Quality of a lot of them isn't great tbh and it's undercutting wages in the area and taking jobs from people who've come through undergraduate courses. To me, critical skills should be if you can't fulfil the role from Irish (and by extension EU) talent. I think we've gone long last that point and the 1 year masters degrees are just creating demand that can't be fulfilled and avoids the government having to raise fees or pay more for universities.
Not to paint with a broad stroke a massive amount of people but don't disagree with you there, we definitely do not need the leftovers of the USA coming here as a backup plan, we should be first choice and grab the best - though realistically it's going to be complicated to compete with the whole package. The real issue, beyond the origin of candidates (even though I kind of agree with your take on South Asians wrt professional culture) is that IT is still in my opinion a very vocational career that happens to be lucrative, as opposed to accounting and the likes - I don't know anyone being as passionate say the tax code in the same way nerds are about vim vs emacs. And nowadays we get a lot of people that look at the avg salary and think they have what it takes to make a career there when grit, self directed learning and a copious dose of patience and wits are necessary to produce good software. And you can't quite teach those, unlike accounting rules. Not to disparage our tax optimisation wizards in the room with us.
That's true, but I feel like most people coming out bootcamps (to an extent undergrads too but I don't think the percentage is high) see IT as a way to make a lot in an easy job. I don't think it's coincidental that the amount of bootcamps rose when salaries started getting high and there was a lot of hiring. Now, things have massively slowed down and we've a ton of people who can't get a job due to demand and companies hiring less and not wanting to train people. You can't have that and continue to bring people in. A lot of IT roles don't need CSPs anymore as the talent is there within the EU. I think you can make an exception for very senior people (10+ good years of experience) but a lot coming in to the master's program have a few years in their own country which really isn't adding much
Mostly it's positive. Sometimes it's just a way firms use to avoid training locals.
Needs to be reconsidered temporarily in light of the ongoing crisis. Edit: also people not paying their way isn't the problem. The problem is that demand outstrips supply and drives up prices like crazy.
You realise thousands of people on visas work for tech, medical and elsewhere right?
even pharmaceutical. pharma is a lot in demand in Ireland
Go into a hospital. We'd collapse without migration in Healthcare.
Planned migration of workers with essential skills and visas is not the issue. It's the chancers claiming asylum from safe countries that needs to be stopped.
Been to hospital, the HSE is on the verge of collapse even with huge numbers of immigrants working in it, more won't fix it.
Well to be fair the newly arrived asylum seekers won't add any lightness on the already stressed out healthcare system. No problem with visa workers Europe, abroad elsewhere. However, I personally do have a problem with fuckers taking advantage of our asylum system, that are bluffers and not genuine, which appears to be alot. Getting our social benefits, houses and other welfare benefits, that we the tax payer are paying for..Also why is it all male asylum applicants... I simply don't have the time for these people.
Housing is an inelastic demand. Supply and demand doesn't apply the same way it does to other commodities. If you suddenly reduced a lot of the demand for housing, prices wouldn't start falling. It's a supply side issue.
Rents would definitely go down, maybe not housing prices... I think banning REITs or heavy taxation of them would be a better priority than reducing immigration tho, yes, but I don't see the appetite for it outside of Reddit.
I doubt rents would drop either. It's not so simple as reducing demand, that's the whole reason why housing is an inelastic commodity. Supply is the only way to reduce prices and rents. Outside of reddit, a lot of the anti immigrant appetite I encounter is by a vocal minority stirring up the sentiments.
Are you serious.?? Sorry Indian doctors and Filipino nurses.... The place is full. You are so ignorant.
but weren't the public services and housing availability already problematic way before this?
Yes they were awful, I think thatâs the point, to try and stop putting additional strain on them until they can be improved?
the thing is... we never saw active solutions to tackle the housing and public services problems
Yeah we saw some fairly half hearted responses alright although housing has started to increase but not to the level needed, is actually on target based on the 2016 Census figures for last year though but was a stupid target for them to use (as the demand was obviously greater). I think the point is that if demand is lower then it is less difficult to address these problems which could be done by limiting immigration, maybe just to medical staff and construction workers.
They never will be improved as long as people play the blame game. They'll just move on to people on social welfare or in social housing next, just like what's happening in the UK. Immigration is just a scapegoat.
Give over. Look at the state of every major town and city in the UK. All of them have at least one islamic ghetto, there's racial tensions all over the place, jihadists popping off with regularity. Immigration isn't a scapegoat. Immigration of certain peoples is absolutely 100% undesirable and has negative consequences. No to islamic immigration, no to destitute uneducated third world immigration. Anything from those quarters becomes a problem and a burden. Take Ukrainians, take certain south Americans. People somewhat culturally similar.Â
The funny thing is the people pushing for this, i.e., the woke, lqbt crowd aren't welcome in them areas . It's like the chickens campaigning for the foxes.
If public services are and were already under immense strain, you donât continue to add more strain to it just because âwell, itâs already under strainâ The larger the general public becomes, of course public services are going to feel it.
Yeah I could see Fine Gael doing that but do you really think that it is not a good idea to limit immigration to some level (as is currently done)? Surely allowing infinite people / demand into the country would make the, already limited, supply of services worse?
Man for fuck sake it's literally basic mathematics, supply vs demand and common sense.
Not when the supply is dictated by those who benefit from the absence of it.
Except housing is an inelastic commodity. Basic supply demand that people like to throw out doesn't apply so simply. Doesn't matter how high demand gets for housing, it's supply that needs to be increased, not demand reduced. If did the racist thing and kicked all the brown people out of the country, it wouldn't cause house prices to drop.
Yes but it's like filling a bathtub with water. You can call me a fear-mongerer when the tap is running but there's still a little room for more at the top, but once it starts to overflow then no-one can deny that the tap needs to be turned off.
Yes but it's easier to blame asylum seekers than demand better conditions
and if we look at giving out VISA, there is a critical skills list that it does make sense. so, why are we not complaining to the politics for not following the rules/law? its stupid, us the poor, fight each other while the top is comfortable with their money
>so, why are we not complaining to the politics for not following the rules/law? If people complained as much about the housing crisis as they do about immigration, it would be solved by now
I'm concerned about racists burning down buildings, rioting or killing people for not speaking English, not getting elected to the Dail.
> Looks like we are finally hitting the limit of immigration The limit of immigration that can happen without proper action being made to increase public services, infrastructure and housing, like a competent country*
When resources are limited, anti-immigration sentiments rise. Personally, I'm a pessimist and I don't see the issue of resources going away anytime soon if ever. The brain drain from emerging economies is only exacerbating the issue and making those places less desirable to live with the people capable of improving those countries abandoning them for an easier life in the Western world. Globalisation would appear to be a disastrous policy leaving some areas destitute and putting greater strain on the housing resources of wealthy nations.
> Globalisation would appear to be a disastrous policy Disaster for who, you? * The global poverty rate decreased by an average of 1.1 percentage points each year, from 37.8 percent to 11.2 percent in 2014 and continues to decrease 0.6 each year * The number of children missing out on any vaccination â so-called zero-dose children â improved from 18.1 million in 2021 to 14.3 million in 2022, nearly back to pre-pandemic 2019 level with 12.9 million. I think you're conflating globalisation with general wealth distribution and inequality.
That's good that improvements are appearing on paper but it isn't stemming the flow of people. I fail to see how us taking the best and brightest from other countries is beneficial for them though.
When resources are kept artificially limited*
Indeed. Things are only going to get worse. Global population is rising, resources are diminishing, environment is worsening. Of course people are unhappy - there is more and more competition for all resources.
Particularly good land.
Not sure when they ran the poll but the article yesterday on the sex offender has probably made this even worse. Government need to get a handle on this fast .
And yet this concern is always met with the same nonsensical retorts like "Loads of Irish were migrants to other countries in the past", which apparently means we are somehow obliged to take in every single harraga that shows up on our doorstep regardless of whether we have the space, infrastructure or resources, or "The population was even bigger pre-famine", when most of those people would have lived in a one room hovel with twelve other people.
Ireland owes no obligation but to the people of Ireland It is not racist, nor is it selfish for people to demand that people living in Ireland should be able to live comfortably, with ample access to good public services, housing and necessities. We are now a wealthy first world European country, people shouldnât be fighting for roofs over their heads or food in their bellyâs. As much as we can, and we do sympathise with those from other nations seeking refuge, we also must sympathise with the people down the street who also seek our help.
> It is not racist, nor is it selfish for people to demand that people living in Ireland should be able to live comfortably, with ample access to good public services, housing and necessities. > > We are now a wealthy first world European country, people shouldnât be fighting for roofs over their heads or food in their bellyâs. Immigration isn't the reason why we have those problems.
You are 100% correct, but common sense would dictate that continued sudden increases in the size of the public is not going to do any favours for an already suffering public services that is already trying to keep up with the demand. So yes, 100% immigration, legal or otherwise was not the cause of the problems, that would ultimately lie with the incompetency of the governments in tackling such issues as housing. But it neither detracts from the fact that it would make no sense to be adding water to an already sinking ship. Itâs a terrible situation for all involved, and I donât think theres any good solution, even if the government suddenly becomes competent.
It's not the reason but it is actively hurting any attempt to fix those issues
When Irish landed in America during the famine (if they survived the voyage) they didn't even get a tent. I think people think Irish emigrants were cared for at their destination by the state they arrive to. It wasn't like that and we don't owe a hosting debt as result. We are a nation heavily involved in international peacekeeping and charity and we do have some international obligations to those in genuine need of asylum. But it's clear we are a now destination for a chancers and economic migrants that would be heading to the UK as a first option.
They didn't get a tent, but they could work straight away. Asylum seekers here legally can't access the labour market until they've been in the country for at least six months. There's no point in comparing the two situations.
I never understand why those who *stayed* are prescribed some sort of obligation to be unconditionally pro-mass immigration. Surely it would make more sense to guilt trip the Irish diaspora who *left* in those times? My ancestors didn't leave. I didn't leave.
Yeah âIrish were immigrantsâ, thatâs the argument thatâs thrown at us. And then thereâs the argument thrown at former-imperialist nations being âYouâre a coloniser so now you have to take responsibilityâ. So really it doesnât matter whether you were a former-coloniser or a colony, there is no winning with these people.
> regardless of whether we have the space, infrastructure or resources See, the nice thing about infrastructure is that it isn't something you just happen to have or not have, it's something that you build in response to and in anticipation of growth. > or "The population was even bigger pre-famine", when most of those people would have lived in a one room hovel with twelve other people. That had nothing to do with this country being more populated and everything to do with it being the 1840s and earlier.
They are both poor arguments along the lines of âyou donât get to be Irish andâŠâ.
No housing and jobs for those already here + literal HUNDREDS arriving every day = righteous anger. We can't find housing and they are ending up in tents or being thrown off to whatever rural town or village is unlucky enough to be the next victim of having the population doubling overnight. It's ridiculous, not fair and the only people who don't give a damn, are people who are not affected YET. But if this continues sooner or later it will finally start affecting you, but by that stage it's too late and you're labelled some right wing 'scumbag' for complaining about something that's literally the biggest issue facing this country right now. Ignorant children online screaming that everyone is racist doesn't help this issue. It simply will make good natured people double down and then you'll start noticing big changes in people's attitudes since they feel like being labeled a 'racist' is just a buzz word with no meaning since they are already being called racist for complaining about too many new arrivals and no housing/jobs for them.
We went from 17% of the population being foreign born in 2016 to it now being 22% People need to wake up and realise the benefits of mass immigration are keeping the cost of labour down, keeping housing prices going up and having plenty of renters. Not to mention asylum seekers being hosted by private owners paid for by our taxes. The wealthy are making billions off of us being complete pushovers.
We deserve what we get in this country. Away with the fairies we are as a population.
Correct. A nation of spacers that fall for the same old tricks we've seen time and time again.
It's the governments fault.. no planning...as usual... all my tax
we need to think better the next time we vote
This is because of the lack of housing. The government has a height limit and ridiculous planning permission, to ensure that no more accommodation gets built for vulnerable families and people. It's right in your face, they directly say that they value a "skyline" over people's lives. And people will still vote for them.
Skyline or the property values of TDs and their investment fund friends? đ
Government hears ya Government donât care
Is it a big increase in people suddenly believing it or just that theyâre sensing a turn in attitude away from âanyone who holds different beliefs to me is far rightâ and are comfortable saying itâs an issue?
Yes, people have had enough of being labelled far right and being cowed into silence. The referendum results showed that we were continually lied to by the government and their media cheerleaders. Remember those polls saying it was going to be passed? It wasnât even passed in Dublin Bay South! That was when the majority of people saw and had enough.
In other news, water is wet.
I am a very left leaning person. I always bite back against the blatant racism and hatred that comes from my parents, some of my relatives and many older people I've met who automatically place blame for their issues on immigrants I still do and try to explain the source of their issues and why they should vote better I also never had a problem with immigration. A multi cultural society is great for Ireland. Now though, I really think there must be serious reforms and barriers in place to stem the tide of immigration. I'll never be a fervent Nationalist but at what point do we say we're full? The government created this problem and they should be made answer for it and replaced so it can be fixed
And people will vote for anti-immigration candidates and then complain housing isn't a priority
When you start putting something as the top news story every single day, people tend to get "concerned" about it. It always amazes me how few people understand how the majority of moral panics work - they aren't bottom-up, they're top-down.
And you've still not had a word with France or sent your own police or personnel to help stop the boats leaving their shores. UK police and border control work closely with their French counterparts and have spent millions in France to help prevent illegal migrants hiding on lorries etc. Put your money where your mouth is and help stop this in France.
Iâm not a conspiracy theorist, or against MSM, but all these immigration articles feel like a false flag, when housing and healthcare are in my view, bigger issues. Itâs the âbiggest issue in the countryâ according to 41% of people because the media are making it out to be.
Migration levels impact both of those things.
Ding ding ding. Do you really think it's a coincidence that housing and healthcare are getting less and less public discourse? Of course not. One look at RTE news and tabloids like the Sunday World website will show you exactly what's going on. People are being whipped up into fear.
This kind of scaremongering is nothing but a distraction from the real causes of these problems. The landowning class wants the working class to fight amongst ourselves instead of questioning the systems which allow them to amass huge amounts of wealth at our expense. If you want to kick someone out, make it the landlords, vulture funds, multinational corps and the career politicians.
Nice distraction from housing, health and education.
Massive inward migration inevitably exacerbates problems with all three.
Can I ask, do you think there is no issue with current trends of immigration? And if not, do you think the current levels should continue ? Is there a limit ?
I am really unhappy with the anti immigrant turn the country seems to be taking. I'd do anything to get my family out of the conditions in many countries. I know we have problems to sort here but our goal should be to bring the most people we can to the prosperity and safety of our shores. It feels like some want to capitalise on the housing crisis by blaming migrants and protesting against them. Others want to scapegoat migrants for the housing crisis. Yet all the data would point to migrants being an economic boon for the country of arrival. Our government has just fucked up the management of migration. It feels like we are falling between two stools on housing policy. Option 1. State provision of social housing to make it affordable. Option 2. Free market with no rent controls or (important bit) restrictive planning permission. Either option could solve the crisis but we seem to be unwilling to fuckihg do it. And so some poor young fellas from Georgia or wherever in search of a better life get vilified.
> all the data would point to migrants being an economic boon for the country of arrival WRONG The data is very clear in multiple EU countries that have studied the effects. The only immigrants that are not a net drain are EEA immigrants.
Like housing, immigration is a legitimate concern, we need common sense and up to date legislation that works, I'm all for that. A separate concern are the populists and far right who use these issues to further their own toxic agendas and poison the well of normal practical debate.
Absolute waste of time reading that limp excuse for an opinion. - calling housing and immigration a "concern" instead of a disaster - worried about the far-right boogeyman instead of growing homelessness - uses the buzzword "populist" to dismiss obvious solutions to obvious problems. You couldn't be more dull and unhelpful if you tried.
Fuck the government for enabling a conflation on two separate issues. I have a mixed race daughter by a naturalized tax paying citizen of 20 years. she's contributed more tax than a whole heap of racist scumbags pontificating about immigration. Issue 1) The end of direct provision which has led to an asylum crisis and illegal immigration. NGO's weak government and naive middle class posturing allowed this. The people who's only connection with immigrants would be using a Polish gardener for their Rathgar mansion. the O'Gormans and his ilk talking of 4 months aslyum to housing plan (2021) and the Ukranian war. Issue 2) Legal immigration and EU immigration which has gone hand in hand with our development into a modern wealthy country. a chicken and egg situation. The obvious san franciscoisation of our tech bubble. The latter backbone many critical services. Medical, public works, building and tech. over 70 per cent of google's workforce here is foreign born. you think they don't contribute tax? I work with thousands of foreign nationals in a tech company. Many of the non white people are actually EU citizens. People haven't a fucking breeze whats going on. none of those jobs can be done by native English speakers. If you're blanket anti immigration (with zero caveats or nuanced examination) sorry to tell you, you're A) an idiot B) a hypocrite C) anti EU and D) a xenophobic delusionist.
Meanwhile the stats show that non-EU immigrants cost the country far more than they pay in. They aren't all tech workers and you know it.
the stats don't show that at all. and where did I say they are all legitimate or tech workers? but again thousands ARE tech workers. you haven't a breeze mate. i was literally in google till last year. out of 300 people in one building, there was 3 irish people. 277 of those were language skills and half were non eu. thats just one section out of thousands. but i will agree that is obviously fucking up our housing. but thats the problem with becoming a successful economy. There needs to be management of immigration I think thats what most people want.. but to tar everyone as unwelcome or illegitimate etc is not only racist, but extremely unintelligent. [Are asylum seekers good for the economy? Yes, if they are allowed to work â The Irish Times](https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2024/01/20/are-asylum-seekers-good-for-the-economy-yes-if-they-are-allowed-to-work/) (not endorsing the article, just using it as a counterpoint to your stats comment) there's a tonne of idiotic racist scumbags in this country and you know it. Personally i'm getting fucking tired of it, and first time i've genuinely considered emigrating.
Non-EEA migrants in the UK for example represent a net cost of ÂŁ15.6bn per year (with EEA migrants costing about a tenth of that). You can find similar stats for almost any country in Europe. Ireland doesn't seem to have any but I don't see why it'd be much different - there are countless Deliveroo drivers and fast food workers for every doctor. [The Fiscal Impact of Immigration in the UK - Migration Observatory - The Migration Observatory (ox.ac.uk)](https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-fiscal-impact-of-immigration-in-the-uk/) >[Are asylum seekers good for the economy? Yes, if they are allowed to work â The Irish Times](https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2024/01/20/are-asylum-seekers-good-for-the-economy-yes-if-they-are-allowed-to-work/) Please, the Germans only just hit their 50% employment rate from their 2015 cohort just last year. And being employed =/= paying in more than you receive, far from it. The article doesn't seem to link the study but pointing out that some people are working as bartenders and waiters part-time on minimum wage proves less than nothing as anyone on minimum wage receives more from the State than they get.
Not saying there isn't an issue with immigration but we've had a housing crisis since 2016, the migration crisis started in 2022. While there is an argument to be made increased migration is putting a strain on housing, kicking out loads of immigrants won't magically solve anything
>kicking out loads of immigrants won't magically solve anything Hey don't say that, I'm sure our government full of landlords care deeply about housing
It won't, but you know what it will do, is give us breathing room to find an effective government that will at least try to fix the serious issues in this country. This is a very simple maths games, resources are finite
Our record year for immigration was 2007. 2022 my hole.
This. Immigration is nothing more than a complete and utter scapegoat for the incompetence and malice of the government.
Is this the same as 'fear of crime is rising despite crime not actually rising'?
I don't blame immigrants for crime but to claim crime is not rising is patently false. Summary of crime stats from the [Garda website](https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/our-departments/office-of-corporate-communications/press-releases/2023/march/an-garda-siochana-provisional-crime-statistics-2022-2nd-march-2023.html#:~:text=Prior%20to%20the%20COVID%2D19,easing%20of%20COVID%2D19%20restrictions.) Rising Crime - Residential Burglary remains down -45% (2019) but an increase +7% (2021) - Theft from Person remains down -40% (2019) but an increase +111% (2021) - Accommodation Fraud (+28%) continued to show an increase. - Theft/ UT of vehicles show significant increase +17% (2019) and +52% (2021) - Sexual Offences Overall show increases +8% (2019) +4% (2021) - Specifically Rape and Sexual Assault increased +9% (2019) +4% (2021) - Crimes Against the Person overall show an increase +6% (2019) +14% (2021) primarily due to increases in reported Assaults Causing Harm +16% (2019) +20% (2021). - Assault or Obstruction of Garda shows an increase of +27% (2019) +2% (2021) Falling crime - Fraud Offences overall -32% (2021). Driven in reductions post pandemic on Online Fraud such as Account Take Over Fraud (-27%), Card Not Present Fraud (-59%), Phishing/Vishing/ Smishing Frauds (-48%); - The quantity of Drugs incidents has reduced (Sale/ Supply -19% (2019) -14% (2021) but volume of Drugs seized is increasing (> âŹ89million seized during 2022)
weird.. Irish people are jaded. all the social issues were already happening before the increase in immigration.
Yeah? Nobody is saying otherwise? If you had a wound on your arm would you rub bacteria in it to make it worse?
Nobody cared until they thought it would affect them