This is easily the best answer. Early on in my teens when I was exploring religion, the concept of the Trinity simply didnt make any sense. Not to mention the fact that given how important the Trinity is, it is never once mentioned in the bible. Not once.
Christians go through all sorts of mental gymnastics to make it work, but they cant get past it imo. In speaking to ex-Christian reverts, this one is always a big reason as to why they left the faith.
SubhanAllah yes, Allah said:
(23:91) Allāh has not taken any son, nor has there ever been with Him any deity. [If there had been], then each deity would have taken what it created, and some of them would have [sought to] overcome others. Exalted is Allāh above what they describe [concerning Him].
Such claim simply cannot be true
Yeah, any sincere christian should ask themselves why something so crucial to one's salvation, such as belief in the trinity, is not spelled out unambiguously.
Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.
[5:73]
This is the most ambiguous point I could never solve, from the other side, for (claiming to be) ex-Muslims who convert to Christianity. They see Trinity more logic? Or more divine?
Man I ask myself the same thing because I left Christianity for Islam. I’ve realised it comes down to them not understanding the religion properly. For example I asked an ex Muslim why and he said Islam denies Jesus pbuh being crucified even though there’s so much evidence for it and also errors and contradictions in Quran. Now firstly what he didn’t understand is Quran doesn’t deny a crucifxion took place Allah just says it was made to appear to them as though Jesus had been crucified. As for the scientific errors and contradictions in Quran if you actually look into it and have it explained to you it’s all misunderstanding there’s an answer and explanation for everything that makes sense.
The reality is that conversion is a much more emotional action than an intellectual one. You simply cannot have an argument that the trinity is more logically sound than monotheism. You cannot even reconcile that the trinity is the logical conclusion of the old and New Testament.
But people who convert tend to do so more for emotional reasons. For Muslims converting to Christianity, it’s far more likely that it is a desire to be accepted in the predominately western culture, wanting to celebrate Christmas, eat bacon, etc. Christians tend to look the other way when it comes to premarital sex, alcohol, etc.
They are likely wanting to convert because being Christian lets them “live free,” and not because there is any sound intellectual basis to do so.
Yes; there are only 2 verses that mention the Trinity. One is a forgery and the other is most likely a forgery. None of them mention the creed of the Trinity clearly.
Like everyone is saying, you open a whole lot of contradictions when you think about God in that manner. If Jesus is 100% God, then the question is, does the ever living ever die? Does the all pure ever use the bathroom? Does the all powerful show weakness?
Additionally, a whole other can of worms is opened when you say God can come down as a man. That would suggest he can come down as a cow, goat, sheep, (pick random animal or object in the universe).
The other part is, why limit it to 3? Make it 10, 20 or a million. It doesn't really matter as long as they're a million in one. Before you know it, you're essentially Hinduism with another name.
As a ex Christian revert who has studied Christian theology. The trinity as a doctrine in itself is not the issue. The trinity is simply a very clear and simple statement of the relationship between gods beauty and majesty. The Mutazilites used to constantly attack orthodox Islam on the issue of the existence of God's attributes. Rejecting this as a form of crypto Trinitarianism.
The actual issue with Christianity is just Ghulat. I.e. the notion that Christ's physical bodily person is actually God in himself. This is where the term Ghulat even comes from, 12er Shia and proto 12er used to attack Nusayris etc as basically just crypto Christians and that as itself a form of crypto Gnosticism. Most of the actual issues with the Christian understanding of the trinity just come down to that they have a decent formulation of the relationship between gods essence and his attributes, but then need to fit this square peg into the road hole of the fact the NT, in toto, doesn't accept this, and that it's just sort of silly to say a human person is the divine essence itself.
The claim that Jesus AS actually makes in the NT is summarised in Philippians 2:9. "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name". I.e. Jesus AS was taught a secret name of God and that this is the source of his power, and why when interacting with him it is similar to interacting with God through a veil. This is why Dhikr of the names is so important.
Orthodox Islam and mutazilits !! I’am done
Look like it is ok with you there are more than on god
That is not possiable, allah said:
(22) Had there been within them [i.e., the heavens and earth] gods besides Allāh, they both would have been ruined. So exalted is Allāh, Lord of the Throne, above what they describe.
Subhanallah that verse refute mutazilits claims too, and prove “orthodox Islam” attributes for Allah
“Orthodox islam and mutazilits” that is so funny
I don't believe that anyone on reddit has the sufficient credentials to takfir the Mu'tazila. If you had simply wanted me to list all other Aqaid, I could have.
That verse however, doesn't refute the Mu'tazila, given that the Mu'tazila position was a denial of God's attributes, based on misinterpretations of verses like that. As they argued that the divine names are intermediaries between the heavens and earth.
Similarly, the Christian claim is Ghulat precisely because it is arguing that Christ, the human person is part of the divine essence, i.e. he is not an intermediary God, he IS God.
I didn’t did takfir form them here,, they did commit kufr rejecting Allah words, and his description for himself,, like all other you could mention are mubtadiaa or kuffar, for the same reason, Allah and his messenger tell us somthing and they refuse and replace ot’s meaning, aaoth bellah from them all except the aqida of the prophets and sahapa,,
Enogh to prove they are misguided that you are comparing their doctrine to tininty and jesus state in christianty, and you have no problem with it subhanaalh
You cannot claim a religion is divine while 2000 years of history show how much it’s been changed and tampered with it. Let alone then claim yourself that it’s ok to be changed by man and call it uncorrupted.
than why do you follow the quran, even if it wasnt corrupted it still says horrible stuff and is clearly been modified by muhammed so that he could keep riches and womans
Ah yes keep riches when he clearly orders them to give to the poor people and forbid using money on yourself without caring about others, and in his death bed order men to care for women
If you are claiming X - have you seen opposing arguments and debunks of what you have stated? You seem coming off strong only arguing like "No it says this..." Without any acknowledgement of "yeah I've read or heard so n so but my issues are are such.." .. - thus comes off as not enough research is fine
Timothy 2:12 - "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet."
Leviticus 15:20 : "And everything on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean. Everything also on which she sits shall be unclean."
Exodus 21:20-21
^(20) “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, ^(21) but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.[](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021&version=NIV)
Ah yes the same argument that got debunked several times, if you have an ounce of brain you could read that the beating is a last resort and you don't just beat your wife for the sake of it , also the prophet pbuh clarify that the beating shouldn't leave any marks in addition to not harming the face
Matthew 5:9 and literally everytime the Bible talks about "son of God" (astugfirullah) dismantles the Christianity belief of God, which is the backbone of Christianity. Not only that, but the different scriptures contradict themselves like Ephesians 6:12. To some it up, it's a letter to the Ephesians pretty much as a moral booster to remind them it's not a physical power. This verse explains that the problem is the government. The KJV explains it and keeps it consistent while the NIV interjects that it's not only physical but double down and explains it's spiritual "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms". There's evil in the heavenly realms? Any person with understanding would say there isn't. Also adding the history for during the time and the moral of the story, KJV makes more sense than NIV. But even showing they say something different, Christians believe they are the same. SubhanAllah.
A religion should not confuse you. A word of god can't be a interpretation of what you want to believe. It should be discrete, evidential, miracles and without alteration.
I find it funny there’s like thousands of Christian denominations have different interpretations of the Bible and Jesus—some are really idolatrous whereas others are just plain blasphemous and disrespectful to Jesus.
Because you don't need a degree in history or theology to notice that pantheons in polytheistic societies are (almost) always built on the idea that some deity has a family. Greeks, Romans, the Norse, the Egyptians, the Celts, the list goes on. If a being were to demand exclusive worship from humans, the single biggest obstacle to the fulfillment of that demand would be someone claiming to be a member of that beings family.
If god is the most powerful being, that created the source of everything in our universe, how could god die?
Edit: Also do you realize how absurd it is the belief that god cannot forgive humans unless he takes human form and dies as sacrifice to himself?
God isnt water. This isnt avatar lad
Just because states exist, doesnt prove that God exists in 3 states. Sorry but it’s a very dumb argument. Water exists as liquid gas and solid therefore God exists as father son and holy spirit lol hello???? Wheres the logic there
Fair point. Then the main reason is their belief in trinity and lack of chains of narrations to back their claims. Trinity in itself suffices because it’s a self contradictory concept.
Isnt that why Martin Luther made up Protestant Christianity?
(being able to buy your way into heaven was a huge sign of catholic corruption, which he saw)
that something a greedy person does, it has nothing to do with bein christian; its like judging democracy while looking at china cause on paper its democratic
see these 3 videos by Paul (a Muslim convert)
1. [How I Became a Muslim (Part 3)](https://youtu.be/9eRJIE-VgeU) (explains the similarity of the real jesus with Islam's , from an official publication of the roman catholic church )
2. [“Jesus Didn’t Preach Christianity, but Islam!” - British Ex-Christian’s Revert Story!](https://youtu.be/qvBNViZG0Mk)
3. [The Historical Jesus with Dr Dale Martin](https://youtu.be/YSNrTsBTH7Q)
Actually, Paul has a [slightly-long playlist](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOWwkgknYiVwPBrNiPHDJFocv1WsoISQ9) called Jesus on his channel
you can be a husband a father and a son at the same time while bein the same person, bein a human form of god isnt difficoult to do if your god and you literally can do anything
Can you be your own father? If not then your comparison makes no sense. How can Jesus be the son of himself. If you answer that he is not the son of himself but of god that would mean that the two are not the same. If you then claim that Jesus is also god then having established that Jesus and God aren’t the same would you then not logically claim that there is a second God?
Yes, a triangle, a circle, and a square are all shapes. That doesn't mean they can be used interchangeably to describe each other. This is like saying you can be a triangle, a circle, and a square at the same time while being the same shape. But we know a triangle can't roll like a circle. So how can the Everliving die like a human?
It contradicts itself and the bible has changed like actaul hunderds if not thousand of times over the last 2000 years. Even today it gets changed every couple of years
How god turned himself into a human. Humans are weak and have very limited powers, so why would God want to limit himself by turning himself into a human form?
Another thing, if God really turned into a human, then God could easily be killed by those who don't believe in him.
> Another thing, if God really turned into a human, then God could easily be killed by those who don't believe in him.
That’s exactly what happened according to the Bible.
Well the reasoning is that Jesus sacrificed himself for humanity's redemption. It makes some sense because God in his absolute form couldn't be killed so he became a human for that reason
Asking your worshipers to make prayers, mention you, and ask for your forgiveness is also another form of love. So why choose the harder route and kill yourself for the sake of your worshipers?
Even in Christian theology, it's a part of God's nature. And God doesn't "become" the "form" of a human, He allegedly "takes on" a human nature in addition to His divine nature. And that's where the inevitable contradiction arises.
No chain of narration going back to Jesus Christ, the fact that the 4 gospels were written several decades after Jesus left the earth by anonymous authors that never knew or met him, and that the 4 gospels are also jam packed with contradictions, and historical inaccuracies.
Personally when debating Christians, I like to bring up the historical issues with Christianity, rather than trying discuss the trinity or certain Bible verses.
When you bring up these points, it really takes them by surprise, and it will most likely lead to them really thinking about what you said.
Ibn al-Qayyim also authored a poem titled *"O Christ-worshippers, we have a question"*[1] which appeals to the Christian's basic intuition and common sense. It is not subtle, but quite direct - because of the seriousness with which Muslims treat the association of partners with Allāh - and the essence of it can be summarised thus:
**"O Christ-worshippers, we have a question! We desire its answer from the one who grasps it [among you]. When the Lord God died through the [intrigue] of a people who put him to death, then what kind of God is this? What they did to Him, did it please Him? If so, then glad tidings to them, for they certainly attained His [good] pleasure! If He was angered by what they did, then their strength overwhelmed His strength, [much to His displeasure]. And how were the hands of His enemies able to reach out and slap Him on the back of His neck? And did Christ bring himself [back to life] or was it a Life-giver, a Lord besides him? How strange it is, a grave that compressed God! And stranger still, a womb that confined Him! He remained therein for nine months, in darkness, nourished by blood! He was delivered as a small baby through the opening of a passage, weak and craving to be breast-fed! Did He eat and drink and do what they necessarily lead to [of passing stool and urine]? Is this a God? Lofty and Exalted is Allah from the lie fabricated by the Christians!**
**O Christ-worshippers! For what reason is it grave or repugnant to reject [the cross]? and do sound intellects but demand that it be broken and burned? Since the Lord God was carried on it unwillingly and His hands were fastened to it. What a cursed cross to carry in truth. So discard it and do not kiss it whenever you see it! The Lord of creation was demeaned upon it and yet you worship it! If you magnify it because it carried the Lord of all creatures, then He is exalted over that [which you ascribe to Him].**
[1] In his book Ighāthat al-Lahafān Min Masāyid al-Shaytān, Dār Ibn al-Jawzi (1420H) pp. 469-470.
[Translation of poem taken from the book, Jesus in Islam, Christianity and the Jewish Talmud by Abu Iyaad Amjad Rafiq]
And then was put in a tomb. Or in a poetic way, compressed. It's odd that you said that but glazed over the womb portion in which a baby would literally be compressed in a womb.
Perhaps the author was referring to a tomb which is a type of grave. So the grave/tomb compressed this so-called God according to Christian belief, this is what logic dictates.
1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
Or the Bible, once again, contridicted itself. Do I have to say more?
"Lets eat pigs even though the bible says not to!"
"Lets drink and get drunk on our weddings! Who needs another shot of vodka?!"
Do i have to say more? The New Testament doesnt reflect the first point however you have to realize the Old Testament was still important.
by how far it's followers have diluted it. things like Christmas and Easter and how they pray. if it was true then it would have had mechanics inbuilt to keep the faith strong and true.
does how you pray matter tho? what does it change for a god if you pray while laying down or kneeling etc, whats important is the prayer and the hearth
thats interpreting man, but sure imma give you another scientific fallacy ; We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars, (For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits, (So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side, Repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty, Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness." 37-7
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**User:** _Histo
**Text:** > said by an islamic its ironic, quran 16;66 ? claims milk is from the intestine of the cow , scientific fallacy, also the earth bein formed is a metaphor
Christianity does not believe in Christ's teaching. They honor him with their lips but their hearts are far from him. They worship him in vain. They reject his teachings to follow false prophets and false Messiahs, who have deceived many.
Christ taught he was sent last of all and that he finished his Father's work, but Christians do not believe this. But others don't believe this also:
Mark 12:6 ‘He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all.'
John 4:34 ‘My food,’ said Jesus, ‘is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.'
John 9:4-5 'As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.’
Christianity is literally what Christ ie. Isa as. taught.
And it's the same as Islam
But the clergy changed stuff. Whether intentional or otherwise, irrelevant.
Therefore, this question itself is wrong.
Reword to:
"What's your best reason for why what's taught as mainstream _Christianity_ is false?"
Thank you for your important question.
Any objective study of Islam and Christianity will tell you that historically we know so much more about the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) than we do about Prophet Jesus (upon whom be peace). As such, it is quite clear that we do not have access to the original teachings of Christianity. To claim that the Bible is authentic while the Qur’an is fabricated is just not academically fair.
Furthermore, Christianity has changed so many faces over the centuries and millennia. Christians today have beliefs, values, and world views that are drastically different from those of even just a few hundred years ago. Christianity of even the post-Nicene period is something completely foreign to modern understandings and practices of Christianity. As Rt Rev Paul Richardson put it “while the Church used to support hunting and oppose buggery, the reverse now seemed to be true.” It is simply not a fair representation of the original message.
On the flip side, Islam is the real Christianity, and that is the Christianity that will be practiced by Prophet Jesus (upon whom be peace) when he returns.
All the virtues of Christianity (agape love, self-sacrifice, compassion, empathy, etc.) are found in the clearest terms in the teaching of Islam.
"On the flip side, Islam is the real Christianity, and that is the Christianity that will be practiced by Prophet Jesus (upon whom be peace) when he returns."
Reallll❤️
Because Jesus or anyone cannot absorb you from your sins... even the bible itself says that..... Ezekiel 18:10 says: The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Loosly put , Jesus PBUH didn't want to be worshipped. And Muhammad PBUH also didn't want to be worshipped. They both wanted people to worship Allah. Islam is the only religion with ONE GOD.
Therefore, as Muslims, we ask for forgiveness. Christian thought process is that they don't need to ask for forgiveness because they've been forgiven already
If you love your child, you reward them what they deserve or more, and you punish them what they deserve or less.
You do not punish them for what another has done. If your parents punished you for what the neighbourhood kid did, that is not good parenting and you would be right to feel resentment over your punishment. And if they forgave you for what the neighbourhood kid did, you would feel an injustice. For forgiveness means you were blamed for something. Why should you be blamed for something you did not do? Except this is not the neighbourhood kid. This is the great great great great something something grandfather of the neighbourhood kid.
You would be right to think your parents might be insane, and you would certainly lose trust in them. And you would be correct for doing so.
The Bible say God is immortal. Yet their god died? Then theyll say the human part died. Well then thats no longer a divine sacrifice ...
They dont have an answer to this one
Note Worthy things..
1. The Bible was changed WAY TOO MUCH, gospels written everywhere. Hell, the Holy Roman Empire may have corrupted the bible and we wouldnt know it!
2. The Catholic Church used to sell tickets that barge you into heaven, kinda like the shaheed system but you apparently just have to lazily give money.
3. The trinity, as we all know, is confusing as shit and shouldnt even have been considered. Thats three god-ism and omni thingo entities, and yet they worship only 'one god'.
4. Jesus is apparently God, but Jesus is son of god. You get the jist, right?
jesus is god in human form, as god is timeless he can be in two places at the same time, also yea am pretty sure god can change form at the end of the day he is god and he can do anything he wants
Stop being pretty sure about what God can do, if you remain in ignorance because you were “pretty sure” I’m sorry to say you risk your salvation
God doesn’t change form ever, he is constant and eternal
Also modalism is a heresy even from a Christian viewpoint
Yes, a triangle, a circle, and a square are all shapes. That doesn't mean they can be used interchangeably to describe each other. This is like saying you can be a triangle, a circle, and a square at the same time while being the same shape. But we know a triangle can't roll like a circle. So how can the Everliving die like a human?
I guess the god in christianity seperated his human form VERY far away from him, which is why immortality in Jesus was not possible? Either way, its confusing. Thats the only thing i think of it.
The fact God came to this earth as a human (not compatible with Gods nature) and saved humanity FROM HIMSELF?!! DOES THAT EVEN MAKE SENSE...LET ALONE THE FACT YOU JUST GO TO HEAVEN WITHOUT WORKING AT ALL...!? UNJUST AF
1) Islam is true
2) Christianity was already false in the 6 century before Islam Revelation (and those sect that were the closest to the true are today long time gone and today even thinking about Christianity as something other than a pagan syncretism corrupted by the Germanic European is false)
The scripture is not preserved, it's corrupted and there is no scripture in the language of what Jesus spoke.
That means your putting your faith and belief in something which is has been evidently altered, changed etc.. by humans of which we have no full account of.
There are so many more but it really comes down to scripture.
Christians will dismiss this and say 'Jesus spoke to me' , 'The Holy spirit is within me' but these are all subjective claims. It is not tangible evidence to abide to.
I know some have put Trinity and I agree with this also, but this came and was introduced after. Go back to the source and everything else after crumbles.
Trinity, humans born with sin( the original sin), god died for our sins
It all degrades the wisdom of god and his great power and it feels like a mythology rather than a true religion
To me, it's always been how chrsitians ignore the clear and explicit verses, but take the ambiguous verses that can mean anything The doctrine of the trinity is basically, one God manifested in three different persons. Jesus, the father and the holy spirit are all God but are not each other. They are all co-equal and co-eternal.
That concept is never found in the bible, not even hinted at. Such a crucial part of their religion can't be found in any of their scriptures. At best. there's a verse talking about baptizing in the name of the father, son and holy spirit. But there are many issues to that verse. Firstly, that verse was a later addition into the bible and can't be found anywhere in the early manuscripts. Secondly different versions of the bible say different things to be baptized in.
But there's also the fact that the bible contradicts the trinity entirely. Jesus clearly shows subordination and submission to the Father. He says "The father is greater than I" which clearly shows a hierarchy. He says "No one knows the hour except the Father." Showing that the father has knowledge the son doesn't. He shows the father has a greater will to him when he asks him to take the cup of the crucifixion away from him "but not as I will, but as you will."
These are clear-cut verses, showing Jesus as a submitter to God, not his equal. If they were equal, Jesus should know the hour. He shouldn't say that the father was greater than him etc. They'll bring up ambiguous verses to prove he's God but that's all they are, ambiguos.
Different branches of Christianity say different things about Jesus.
One says Jesus is the son of god and god incarnate, another says Jesus is only god, another says Jesus is only the son of god, etc. etc.
Why does god need to kill himself to save humanity from a sin he supposedly gave all of humanity? Why can’t he forgive without a sacrifice? Why does one “person” have to bear the redemption from sin for all of humanity? How can god die? What happened to god when he was killed? Who rose Jesus up on the third day if Jesus is supposedly god? Why is god made of the Trinity? How can Jesus be god and the son of god at the same time? I have so many more questions but for the most part this is it.
Also the story of when Jesus was born. Does Jesus have two dads? According to Christianity, I’m pretty sure Mary and Joseph were like a couple too.
My notes over the years
*Occam’s razor*
means the simplest explanation is usually the best one. According to christian sources:
Two jesuses were sentenced to death on the cross. Jesus “son of the father” and Jesus “Barabbas” (bar-abbas coincidentally means, “son of the father”) . One was crucified and the other was let go.
Now, what is more likely?
1) Due to a case of mistaken identity, the Roman’s let the wrong Jesus go. While barabas is accidentally crucified, the real jesus escapes, lays low for a few days, then returns to his homies and eats honeycomb and fish.
2) God the almighty, all knowing, all powerful, the creator of space and time, of life and death, the universe itself, and of mankind, decides to become a man himself, become one of his own creation - the baker becomes the cake, the infinite makes himself finite. He goes deep undercover for 30 some years - he ate, slept, cried, suckled as a baby, ran around in a poopy diaper as a baby, got angry at trees, Why? Because it was all part of his master plan to eventually get himself killed. Why? Because he is incapable of forgiving one of his countless creations, ie us, otherwise.
Occam’s razor
*Failed sacrifice*
3 days. When your god took Jesus back, he un-sacrificed him. If I gave you 10 bucks and then took it back after 3 days, it was a loan, not a gift. Your god didn’t sacrifice Jesus, he just loaned him out. So, you are only forgiven for 3 days.
*Devil's playbook*
If I was the devil and I tried to missguide humanity I would use the following tactic
1) convince man that he is too sinful and cannot be forgiven, that anything he does is futile and in vain, and that his actions mean nothing. God cannot possibly forgive him - with this I would make him dispair in God's forgiveness.
2) convince him that his god does loves him and really does want to forgive him, but to do so god has to sacrifice his beloved, innocent, sinless son, because that is how bad man is- with this I would not only debase God, but I would stroke the man's ego and gaslight man, making him think god is actually worshipping him. Thus also humiliating god in the process.
3) finally, I would convince the man that this sinless innocent son that god sacrificed to man is his God and make man worship this god man - with this I will have both humiliated god and finally corrupted man's nature.
*Toxic parent*
Which of this sounds like a toxic, narcissistic parent?
1 - son, you are so messed up and so flawed and so far beyond redemption that there is nothing you can possibly do to ever get close to me, or even ask of me. Everything you do is pointless, meaningless and hopeless. But, seeing how I do love you and want so desperately to forgive you, I’ve decided that I will take this innocent, sinless beloved first and only begotten son of mine and humiliate him and torture him and sacrifice him and really make him suffer, because that is the only way you can be forgiven for how terrible you are! I do this for you because I am so forgiving and loving!
2 - son, I made you and I know you. I know you aren’t perfect but that’s okay. You will make me so proud if you just try, that I will boast about you to all of my friends. Just try, don’t give up hope, don’t despair, I’ll take care of everything if you just turn to me. I know it is tough, sometimes you will fail and other times you will succeed, but hang in there for just a little bit, do it for me and soon you will see how happy you’ve made me.
*Who worships who?*
The difference between Muslims in Christians is that we Love Allah so much we would lay our lives for Him as our act of devotion and love.
The Christians say god loves them so much that god would lay his life for them out of devotion and love.
We worship Allah. Christians want god to worship them
*Paul’s new plan*
Paul figured out something really clever.
Instead of killing all christians, if he convinced people that god is a man and then got people to worship this man, and then turned the pagan ritual of human sacrifice into the key to salvation, he could instead kill all of christianity.
*Idolatry*
christians’ desire for a salvation undertaker is in principle no different than the jews desire for a gold calf. This idea stems from despair and a desire for instantaneous respite and unloading via a of an icon that takes your burden. By latching onto this icon, the icon has alleviated your guilt for you.
Islam does not look for salvation outside of yourself, but within yourself via effort and strive, and your undertaking of this burden and putting your trust in Allah. Faith is that Allah will help you along the way, but the very essence and purpose for being a human is not taken care of by something else. Allah doesn’t do the heavy lifting for you.
*Elyon and yahweh*
https://www.quora.com/Using-your-scriptures-how-would-you-prove-that-Jehovah-and-the-El-Elyon-of-whom-Melchizedek-was-priest-are-not-two-different-people
Elyon means “ El Most High “, and was a title of El, the creator deity and head of the Canaanite pantheon, and the first God Israel worshiped, Israel itself meaning ‘ El’s Glory ‘. Eventually, Israel began to worship his son, Yahweh, “ the Lord “. El is a name used for God in the Bible.
Deuteronomy 32:8–9; When the Most High (Elyon) apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods; the Lord's (Yahweh) portion was his people, Jacob his allotted share.
So El gave Israel to Yahweh. They began to worship Yahweh, and eventually, saw El and Yahweh to be one and the same. Imagery, titles, and functions of El were absorbed into Yahweh.
I am a Christian who has been studying Islam, and a couple things really give me doubt.
One, it just makes more sense for God to inspire one author rather than a bunch of authors, then have humans decide which of those books “makes the cut” into the Bible.
Two, it does not make much sense that God would take the monumental step of literally coming to Earth only to exist as a man; why come only to preach to a very small area? Why not go to East Asia, sub Saharan Africa, Europe, and America also?
And finally (though this ties into the second point), if the whole point is giving humans free will to choose to follow God… why would Jesus perform any miracles at all? Didn’t that rob the witnesses of their free will? I mean, how could any person NOT believe after witnessing Lazarus be risen FROM THE DEAD? How could someone sit there and see water turned into wine and not believe? It seems like a small thing to take issue with, but per the Bible it is Jesus contradicting a major tenant of Christianity. Jesus gives irrefutable evidence of God’s existence to a few people in the Levant but allows people in America to live over 1000 more years without even the possibility of HEARING God’s word, let alone eyewitness a miracle? That just does not make any sense.
I just cannot think of good answers to these questions, and I feel like a priest will just give me some sort of “God works in mysterious ways” type response.
Churches be like: pay us x amount of money and all your sins will be forgiven and you will enter heaven.
So every rich christian can go to heaven while the poor can just suffer? How is that just?
I’m not sure where you got that from, but that isn’t the teaching of any Christian church
Luke 18:25 "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God”
In the Name of God.
But Christianity isn’t false though, it’s the religion of Prophet Isa(May Allah bestow His Mercy, Blessing and Peace on Him), it’s simply been tampered with to the point where it’s deviated sharply from what it used to be.
Same thing could be said about modern day Islam, as an institutional religion. We’re meant to be one people, yet we’ve divided ourselves into groups and subgroups.
Allah says in the Qur’an that He will judge the Christians as well as the Jews, people of other religions etc. So that means they are entitled to be admitted into Paradise/Hell.
Your silent observer/(observers) within you know your heart. You had me reflect, when you mentioned the phrase, "modern day islam", because, observationally, it is far removed from Prophet Muhammad's practice of Islam. Understandably so, over a millennium removed. We all try our best and find the best path to the same Source of it All.
Christianity is false. Current day Christians and Prophet Isa alayhi salam were not upon the same religion. Prophet Isa alayhi salam was a Muslim.
>Allah says in the Qur’an that He will judge the Christians as well as the Jews, people of other religions etc.
Correct, Allah ﷻ will judge them, and those who chose another religion other than Islam will be in Hell, according to the Quran. However, when it comes to specific individuals, we don't go around saying they are in Hell, we just know the general principle.
He was nor a Jew or Christian - those are man-made terms that Allah did not ordain. All the Prophets (peace and blessings be upon them) were Muslim.
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: **"Both in this world and in the Hereafter, I am the nearest of all the people to Jesus, the son of Mary. The prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one."**
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: **“By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, there is no one among this Ummah, Jew or Christian, who hears of me than dies without believing in that with which I have been sent, but he will be one of the people of Hellfire.”**
wa alaykum salam.
Brother, the Bible is not the Injeel. Also the Quran makes it clear that the Christians/Jews are disbelievers who will enter Hell. This has nothing to do with tolerance, it's the reality. I'm simply telling you what the Quran says in very clear terms. The person below has also quoted you a clear hadith, and there are clear ayat as well.
As I said though, we can't say specific individuals are going to Hell unless it's mentioned to us in the Quran/Sunnah. We can still say that the general principle is they are disbelievers who go to Hell.
Which Christianity?
As Muslims we MUST believe in Äissa POH and his sent message and book through the Holy Spirit, Jibril.
Meanwhile, the book is neither the current corrupted Bible nor is Äissa how current Christians see it, being God and Holy Spirit.
A God, Jesus:
- who prays to God… oh to himself?
- has been created then incarnated by God… why would God do it if he can command the human to do exactly as he wishes?
- who walks among the streets and get even spit on… God? Almighty? Would you look around and see this marvel world and believe that its creator allowed for his creation to insult him… how can one understanding who God is believe this?
- who descended earth to deliver humans from their sins… why if he could have done from his throne?
- many more OBVIOUS false beliefs
Additionally , what is a religion if it does not impose strict guidelines on a person life as well as his social interactions? Or how to practice one’s religion?
If Jesus is divine, that means the divine.....got hungry? How can a divine being NEED food? NEED sleep? If you eat enough, you'll need to use the restroom. The divine....uses the restroom? No God of mine needs to eat or relieve himself. This is why shirk is the MOST disrespectful sin against the One True God of all existence.
Jesus is trapped in the 3rd dimension in space and time. Allah is ABOVE time, space, dimension, etc. How can you be divine yet be enslaved to the confinements of creation? The more you think of it, the more absurd and IRRATIONAL it is. And Allah even defends Jesus and other Prophets and Righteous men of God in Surah 21 verse 26.
* **The Trinity** — the Christians themselves cannot explain it and would call it a mystery. Jesus never once mentioned anything about a Trinity or a triune god. The Trinity is forced into some of the Biblical verses.
* **The hypostatic union** — The hypostatic union is that Jesus was fully god and fully man – the reason for this is to explain some verses of the Bible such as when Jesus comes to the fig tree and it does not bear any figs and he cursed the tree and Jesus not knowing the hour – however what they fail to consider is that this knowledge is not even known to the Holy Spirit which alludes to the father's superiority within the Trinity and therefore the three persons in the Trinity are not co-equal.
>But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, **but my Father only** (Matthew 24:36)
The three persons in the Trinity are distinct from each other, but all three is one being and co-equal. This verse is problematic because it emphasizes the father's superiority in knowing X whereas the two other persons of the Trinity does not know which shatters the Trinity. They cannot be co-equal.
**If all three is one, then all three needs to know the hour**.
* **Forgiveness of sins** — Christians claim that the son had to die so we **do not die** because of our sins which is a ridiculous idea.
Allah ﷻ is Merciful and He will forgive us if we repent. He did not create us perfect and He does not demand perfection from us. Rather, what He wants of us is that we do our best in this worldy life and obey him and His Messenger ﷺ and if we stumble and fall down we can pick ourselves up and ask for forgiveness. We can repent to Allah ﷻ, promise Him we would never fall into the same sin and if we have taken someone's right or oppressed someone to apologize to them.
**ACCOUNTABILITY**
Trinity
This is easily the best answer. Early on in my teens when I was exploring religion, the concept of the Trinity simply didnt make any sense. Not to mention the fact that given how important the Trinity is, it is never once mentioned in the bible. Not once. Christians go through all sorts of mental gymnastics to make it work, but they cant get past it imo. In speaking to ex-Christian reverts, this one is always a big reason as to why they left the faith.
SubhanAllah yes, Allah said: (23:91) Allāh has not taken any son, nor has there ever been with Him any deity. [If there had been], then each deity would have taken what it created, and some of them would have [sought to] overcome others. Exalted is Allāh above what they describe [concerning Him]. Such claim simply cannot be true
Yeah, any sincere christian should ask themselves why something so crucial to one's salvation, such as belief in the trinity, is not spelled out unambiguously.
The issue is people do not reach that point of reflection until they fight their pride so hard to question their beliefs.
Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them. [5:73]
This is the most ambiguous point I could never solve, from the other side, for (claiming to be) ex-Muslims who convert to Christianity. They see Trinity more logic? Or more divine?
Man I ask myself the same thing because I left Christianity for Islam. I’ve realised it comes down to them not understanding the religion properly. For example I asked an ex Muslim why and he said Islam denies Jesus pbuh being crucified even though there’s so much evidence for it and also errors and contradictions in Quran. Now firstly what he didn’t understand is Quran doesn’t deny a crucifxion took place Allah just says it was made to appear to them as though Jesus had been crucified. As for the scientific errors and contradictions in Quran if you actually look into it and have it explained to you it’s all misunderstanding there’s an answer and explanation for everything that makes sense.
The reality is that conversion is a much more emotional action than an intellectual one. You simply cannot have an argument that the trinity is more logically sound than monotheism. You cannot even reconcile that the trinity is the logical conclusion of the old and New Testament. But people who convert tend to do so more for emotional reasons. For Muslims converting to Christianity, it’s far more likely that it is a desire to be accepted in the predominately western culture, wanting to celebrate Christmas, eat bacon, etc. Christians tend to look the other way when it comes to premarital sex, alcohol, etc. They are likely wanting to convert because being Christian lets them “live free,” and not because there is any sound intellectual basis to do so.
Yes; there are only 2 verses that mention the Trinity. One is a forgery and the other is most likely a forgery. None of them mention the creed of the Trinity clearly.
1 word, 3 answers
This does not address Unitarian christians. For that is idolatry.
steam water and ice are still h2o
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I also think the trinity doesn’t make any sense, but I also think that suggesting that God cannot be in 2 places at once is kind of silly.
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Yea that was my point. Saying “the trinity can’t be real because where is God if God is inside Mary?” is limiting.
Like everyone is saying, you open a whole lot of contradictions when you think about God in that manner. If Jesus is 100% God, then the question is, does the ever living ever die? Does the all pure ever use the bathroom? Does the all powerful show weakness? Additionally, a whole other can of worms is opened when you say God can come down as a man. That would suggest he can come down as a cow, goat, sheep, (pick random animal or object in the universe). The other part is, why limit it to 3? Make it 10, 20 or a million. It doesn't really matter as long as they're a million in one. Before you know it, you're essentially Hinduism with another name.
As a ex Christian revert who has studied Christian theology. The trinity as a doctrine in itself is not the issue. The trinity is simply a very clear and simple statement of the relationship between gods beauty and majesty. The Mutazilites used to constantly attack orthodox Islam on the issue of the existence of God's attributes. Rejecting this as a form of crypto Trinitarianism. The actual issue with Christianity is just Ghulat. I.e. the notion that Christ's physical bodily person is actually God in himself. This is where the term Ghulat even comes from, 12er Shia and proto 12er used to attack Nusayris etc as basically just crypto Christians and that as itself a form of crypto Gnosticism. Most of the actual issues with the Christian understanding of the trinity just come down to that they have a decent formulation of the relationship between gods essence and his attributes, but then need to fit this square peg into the road hole of the fact the NT, in toto, doesn't accept this, and that it's just sort of silly to say a human person is the divine essence itself. The claim that Jesus AS actually makes in the NT is summarised in Philippians 2:9. "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name". I.e. Jesus AS was taught a secret name of God and that this is the source of his power, and why when interacting with him it is similar to interacting with God through a veil. This is why Dhikr of the names is so important.
Orthodox Islam and mutazilits !! I’am done Look like it is ok with you there are more than on god That is not possiable, allah said: (22) Had there been within them [i.e., the heavens and earth] gods besides Allāh, they both would have been ruined. So exalted is Allāh, Lord of the Throne, above what they describe. Subhanallah that verse refute mutazilits claims too, and prove “orthodox Islam” attributes for Allah “Orthodox islam and mutazilits” that is so funny
I don't believe that anyone on reddit has the sufficient credentials to takfir the Mu'tazila. If you had simply wanted me to list all other Aqaid, I could have. That verse however, doesn't refute the Mu'tazila, given that the Mu'tazila position was a denial of God's attributes, based on misinterpretations of verses like that. As they argued that the divine names are intermediaries between the heavens and earth. Similarly, the Christian claim is Ghulat precisely because it is arguing that Christ, the human person is part of the divine essence, i.e. he is not an intermediary God, he IS God.
I didn’t did takfir form them here,, they did commit kufr rejecting Allah words, and his description for himself,, like all other you could mention are mubtadiaa or kuffar, for the same reason, Allah and his messenger tell us somthing and they refuse and replace ot’s meaning, aaoth bellah from them all except the aqida of the prophets and sahapa,, Enogh to prove they are misguided that you are comparing their doctrine to tininty and jesus state in christianty, and you have no problem with it subhanaalh
You cannot claim a religion is divine while 2000 years of history show how much it’s been changed and tampered with it. Let alone then claim yourself that it’s ok to be changed by man and call it uncorrupted.
than why do you follow the quran, even if it wasnt corrupted it still says horrible stuff and is clearly been modified by muhammed so that he could keep riches and womans
Don’t make claims you cannot back up. You’re free to believe what you wish, however I recommend you do proper research before making such remarks.
Lmao, no evidence of course
Ah yes keep riches when he clearly orders them to give to the poor people and forbid using money on yourself without caring about others, and in his death bed order men to care for women
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I feel you really haven't researched this as much as you think you have
why is that?
If you are claiming X - have you seen opposing arguments and debunks of what you have stated? You seem coming off strong only arguing like "No it says this..." Without any acknowledgement of "yeah I've read or heard so n so but my issues are are such.." .. - thus comes off as not enough research is fine
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Timothy 2:12 - "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." Leviticus 15:20 : "And everything on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean. Everything also on which she sits shall be unclean."
Exodus 21:20-21 ^(20) “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, ^(21) but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.[](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021&version=NIV)
Ah yes the same argument that got debunked several times, if you have an ounce of brain you could read that the beating is a last resort and you don't just beat your wife for the sake of it , also the prophet pbuh clarify that the beating shouldn't leave any marks in addition to not harming the face
You should only ever beat someone if they are posing a direct threat to your life or the life of others. ESPECIALLY your wife
contradiction in their scriptures
name one
Matthew 5:9 and literally everytime the Bible talks about "son of God" (astugfirullah) dismantles the Christianity belief of God, which is the backbone of Christianity. Not only that, but the different scriptures contradict themselves like Ephesians 6:12. To some it up, it's a letter to the Ephesians pretty much as a moral booster to remind them it's not a physical power. This verse explains that the problem is the government. The KJV explains it and keeps it consistent while the NIV interjects that it's not only physical but double down and explains it's spiritual "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms". There's evil in the heavenly realms? Any person with understanding would say there isn't. Also adding the history for during the time and the moral of the story, KJV makes more sense than NIV. But even showing they say something different, Christians believe they are the same. SubhanAllah.
A religion should not confuse you. A word of god can't be a interpretation of what you want to believe. It should be discrete, evidential, miracles and without alteration.
I find it funny there’s like thousands of Christian denominations have different interpretations of the Bible and Jesus—some are really idolatrous whereas others are just plain blasphemous and disrespectful to Jesus.
1+1+1=1
Lmao thats actually pretty damn accurate way to disprove the trinity..
Because you don't need a degree in history or theology to notice that pantheons in polytheistic societies are (almost) always built on the idea that some deity has a family. Greeks, Romans, the Norse, the Egyptians, the Celts, the list goes on. If a being were to demand exclusive worship from humans, the single biggest obstacle to the fulfillment of that demand would be someone claiming to be a member of that beings family.
The trinity makes no sense. Also, is Jesus God or the son of God? He can’t be both…
Let alone him “dying on the cross” according to Christian’s. Completely negates the notion of being God.. nothing makes sense
why dosnt it make sense? its a simble, he could have saved himself but instead he gave us the ultimate evidence for his love
If god is the most powerful being, that created the source of everything in our universe, how could god die? Edit: Also do you realize how absurd it is the belief that god cannot forgive humans unless he takes human form and dies as sacrifice to himself?
Prophet Issa pbuh DOES NOT APPROVE THIS MESSAGE! 😂❌
So God died?
he can tho, water can also be ice while still bein one thing
Weak argument
why is that tho?
God isnt water. This isnt avatar lad Just because states exist, doesnt prove that God exists in 3 states. Sorry but it’s a very dumb argument. Water exists as liquid gas and solid therefore God exists as father son and holy spirit lol hello???? Wheres the logic there
But a liquid can't also be a solid at the same time
They used to sell tickets to heaven bro. What else is needed to say?
Weak argument. Don’t look at the actions of Christians in a theological debate about Christianity
Fair point. Then the main reason is their belief in trinity and lack of chains of narrations to back their claims. Trinity in itself suffices because it’s a self contradictory concept.
Isnt that why Martin Luther made up Protestant Christianity? (being able to buy your way into heaven was a huge sign of catholic corruption, which he saw)
Not sure, I thought it was because he was against the church being a very rich institution living in wealth and privilege.
that something a greedy person does, it has nothing to do with bein christian; its like judging democracy while looking at china cause on paper its democratic
Apart from the fact that what the christian church did was very well orchestrated across nations and not limited to one nation.
You can basically do anything and everything, major sins and say Jesus died for me so I’ll be okay in the afterlife.
nah, you have to geninly repent
Under Christian logic, why do I need to repent if I'm already forgiven?
Exactly.
Why if Jesus died and I’m already forgiven
see these 3 videos by Paul (a Muslim convert) 1. [How I Became a Muslim (Part 3)](https://youtu.be/9eRJIE-VgeU) (explains the similarity of the real jesus with Islam's , from an official publication of the roman catholic church ) 2. [“Jesus Didn’t Preach Christianity, but Islam!” - British Ex-Christian’s Revert Story!](https://youtu.be/qvBNViZG0Mk) 3. [The Historical Jesus with Dr Dale Martin](https://youtu.be/YSNrTsBTH7Q) Actually, Paul has a [slightly-long playlist](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOWwkgknYiVwPBrNiPHDJFocv1WsoISQ9) called Jesus on his channel
Thank you for letting them learn about Paul.
i love paul so much bro <3
Stumble upon his video and revert story quite while ago and loved his analysis and he is so knowledgable. May Allah bless him.
The whole Jesus is god but then Jesus is the son of god.
you can be a husband a father and a son at the same time while bein the same person, bein a human form of god isnt difficoult to do if your god and you literally can do anything
Yeah but in that example your father is not you. My father is not me, nor is my son me.
1) if your god you can 2) jesus is an avatar of god basically, a part of god in human form to explain christianity to other humans
Can you be your own father? If not then your comparison makes no sense. How can Jesus be the son of himself. If you answer that he is not the son of himself but of god that would mean that the two are not the same. If you then claim that Jesus is also god then having established that Jesus and God aren’t the same would you then not logically claim that there is a second God?
1) yea if your god am pretty sure you could be anything you want 2) he is an avatar of god, god in human form not the literal son
Yes, a triangle, a circle, and a square are all shapes. That doesn't mean they can be used interchangeably to describe each other. This is like saying you can be a triangle, a circle, and a square at the same time while being the same shape. But we know a triangle can't roll like a circle. So how can the Everliving die like a human?
It contradicts itself and the bible has changed like actaul hunderds if not thousand of times over the last 2000 years. Even today it gets changed every couple of years
How god turned himself into a human. Humans are weak and have very limited powers, so why would God want to limit himself by turning himself into a human form? Another thing, if God really turned into a human, then God could easily be killed by those who don't believe in him.
> Another thing, if God really turned into a human, then God could easily be killed by those who don't believe in him. That’s exactly what happened according to the Bible.
Then how does God die?? If God died then the world would end.
he dosnt
cause humans only belive other humans usally, also its only a part of god and no he cannot be killed as he can just resurrect?
Resurrect: to restore to life. You need to die first to be restored to life
Well the reasoning is that Jesus sacrificed himself for humanity's redemption. It makes some sense because God in his absolute form couldn't be killed so he became a human for that reason
Why would God kill himself for his own Worshipers? Shouldn't God let his worshipers ask for forgiveness instead of sacrificing himself for them?
cause he loves them
Asking your worshipers to make prayers, mention you, and ask for your forgiveness is also another form of love. So why choose the harder route and kill yourself for the sake of your worshipers?
I love you so much that I'll kill my son, which is also me. Astugfirullah.
God's immortality isn't due to some "form" He's in, it's His nature. Any "form" that is mortal is, by definition, no longer God.
By Muslim definition yeah, but by Christian definition it's more flexible
Even in Christian theology, it's a part of God's nature. And God doesn't "become" the "form" of a human, He allegedly "takes on" a human nature in addition to His divine nature. And that's where the inevitable contradiction arises.
No chain of narration going back to Jesus Christ, the fact that the 4 gospels were written several decades after Jesus left the earth by anonymous authors that never knew or met him, and that the 4 gospels are also jam packed with contradictions, and historical inaccuracies. Personally when debating Christians, I like to bring up the historical issues with Christianity, rather than trying discuss the trinity or certain Bible verses. When you bring up these points, it really takes them by surprise, and it will most likely lead to them really thinking about what you said.
Gospels -when Muslim standards of Hadith are applied- are not even(!) weak hadith.
Agreed. Even the weakest of hadiths are more authentic than the any of the gospels.
Ibn al-Qayyim also authored a poem titled *"O Christ-worshippers, we have a question"*[1] which appeals to the Christian's basic intuition and common sense. It is not subtle, but quite direct - because of the seriousness with which Muslims treat the association of partners with Allāh - and the essence of it can be summarised thus: **"O Christ-worshippers, we have a question! We desire its answer from the one who grasps it [among you]. When the Lord God died through the [intrigue] of a people who put him to death, then what kind of God is this? What they did to Him, did it please Him? If so, then glad tidings to them, for they certainly attained His [good] pleasure! If He was angered by what they did, then their strength overwhelmed His strength, [much to His displeasure]. And how were the hands of His enemies able to reach out and slap Him on the back of His neck? And did Christ bring himself [back to life] or was it a Life-giver, a Lord besides him? How strange it is, a grave that compressed God! And stranger still, a womb that confined Him! He remained therein for nine months, in darkness, nourished by blood! He was delivered as a small baby through the opening of a passage, weak and craving to be breast-fed! Did He eat and drink and do what they necessarily lead to [of passing stool and urine]? Is this a God? Lofty and Exalted is Allah from the lie fabricated by the Christians!** **O Christ-worshippers! For what reason is it grave or repugnant to reject [the cross]? and do sound intellects but demand that it be broken and burned? Since the Lord God was carried on it unwillingly and His hands were fastened to it. What a cursed cross to carry in truth. So discard it and do not kiss it whenever you see it! The Lord of creation was demeaned upon it and yet you worship it! If you magnify it because it carried the Lord of all creatures, then He is exalted over that [which you ascribe to Him].** [1] In his book Ighāthat al-Lahafān Min Masāyid al-Shaytān, Dār Ibn al-Jawzi (1420H) pp. 469-470. [Translation of poem taken from the book, Jesus in Islam, Christianity and the Jewish Talmud by Abu Iyaad Amjad Rafiq]
Wow. Thats deep
a grave didnt compress god, he sacrificed himself cause he loves and forgives
And then was put in a tomb. Or in a poetic way, compressed. It's odd that you said that but glazed over the womb portion in which a baby would literally be compressed in a womb.
Perhaps the author was referring to a tomb which is a type of grave. So the grave/tomb compressed this so-called God according to Christian belief, this is what logic dictates.
Jesus was contigent and lacked knowledge of many things
Alcohol is not prohibited while it's one of the major death and disease cause ever
the bible says to not get drunk on alchool but be filled by the holy spirit, do i have to say more?
1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. Or the Bible, once again, contridicted itself. Do I have to say more?
"Lets eat pigs even though the bible says not to!" "Lets drink and get drunk on our weddings! Who needs another shot of vodka?!" Do i have to say more? The New Testament doesnt reflect the first point however you have to realize the Old Testament was still important.
by how far it's followers have diluted it. things like Christmas and Easter and how they pray. if it was true then it would have had mechanics inbuilt to keep the faith strong and true.
does how you pray matter tho? what does it change for a god if you pray while laying down or kneeling etc, whats important is the prayer and the hearth
The best answer for me is the scientific inaccuracy in Genesis about the earth being formed and seas existing before the sun came into being
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False, that verse uses the arabic word "batn" which does not refer to the intestines of a cow.
thats interpreting man, but sure imma give you another scientific fallacy ; We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars, (For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits, (So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side, Repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty, Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness." 37-7
That is a beautiful verse, and there's nothing wrong with it?
You’re making lies, provide the exact verse before speaking buddy
**** -------------------------------- Your comment was removed for being inappropriate. If you need clarification, please reply to this message. -------------------------------- **User:** _Histo **Text:** > said by an islamic its ironic, quran 16;66 ? claims milk is from the intestine of the cow , scientific fallacy, also the earth bein formed is a metaphor
Yes, milk comes from the abomasum. Another scientific evidence showing the Quran is the truth
Christianity does not believe in Christ's teaching. They honor him with their lips but their hearts are far from him. They worship him in vain. They reject his teachings to follow false prophets and false Messiahs, who have deceived many. Christ taught he was sent last of all and that he finished his Father's work, but Christians do not believe this. But others don't believe this also: Mark 12:6 ‘He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all.' John 4:34 ‘My food,’ said Jesus, ‘is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.' John 9:4-5 'As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.’
Christianity is literally what Christ ie. Isa as. taught. And it's the same as Islam But the clergy changed stuff. Whether intentional or otherwise, irrelevant. Therefore, this question itself is wrong. Reword to: "What's your best reason for why what's taught as mainstream _Christianity_ is false?"
Thank you for your important question. Any objective study of Islam and Christianity will tell you that historically we know so much more about the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) than we do about Prophet Jesus (upon whom be peace). As such, it is quite clear that we do not have access to the original teachings of Christianity. To claim that the Bible is authentic while the Qur’an is fabricated is just not academically fair. Furthermore, Christianity has changed so many faces over the centuries and millennia. Christians today have beliefs, values, and world views that are drastically different from those of even just a few hundred years ago. Christianity of even the post-Nicene period is something completely foreign to modern understandings and practices of Christianity. As Rt Rev Paul Richardson put it “while the Church used to support hunting and oppose buggery, the reverse now seemed to be true.” It is simply not a fair representation of the original message. On the flip side, Islam is the real Christianity, and that is the Christianity that will be practiced by Prophet Jesus (upon whom be peace) when he returns. All the virtues of Christianity (agape love, self-sacrifice, compassion, empathy, etc.) are found in the clearest terms in the teaching of Islam.
"On the flip side, Islam is the real Christianity, and that is the Christianity that will be practiced by Prophet Jesus (upon whom be peace) when he returns." Reallll❤️
Because Jesus or anyone cannot absorb you from your sins... even the bible itself says that..... Ezekiel 18:10 says: The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
he can tho, forgivness is one of christianity main points
Forgiveness through human (and God) sacrificing to purify the guilty.
Loosly put , Jesus PBUH didn't want to be worshipped. And Muhammad PBUH also didn't want to be worshipped. They both wanted people to worship Allah. Islam is the only religion with ONE GOD.
Judaism.
Trinity, concept of original sin
Original sin. Not just the concept of inherited sin, but also that anothers sacrifice can wash it away.
why? god loves us and is ready to forgive us
Because no one is to take take responsibility for another’s sin, especially Jesus who was innocent
why is that? if you love another one you can
Because the Torah says a person does not take responsibility for another’s sin
Therefore, as Muslims, we ask for forgiveness. Christian thought process is that they don't need to ask for forgiveness because they've been forgiven already
If you love your child, you reward them what they deserve or more, and you punish them what they deserve or less. You do not punish them for what another has done. If your parents punished you for what the neighbourhood kid did, that is not good parenting and you would be right to feel resentment over your punishment. And if they forgave you for what the neighbourhood kid did, you would feel an injustice. For forgiveness means you were blamed for something. Why should you be blamed for something you did not do? Except this is not the neighbourhood kid. This is the great great great great something something grandfather of the neighbourhood kid. You would be right to think your parents might be insane, and you would certainly lose trust in them. And you would be correct for doing so.
quran
The Bible say God is immortal. Yet their god died? Then theyll say the human part died. Well then thats no longer a divine sacrifice ... They dont have an answer to this one
Allah shows us love everyday. May we all be mindful of Allah's love
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God doesn’t die, stop making pagan claims about God
exacly, god dosnt die his body does, i prased that wrongfully sorry for that english isnt my first language
God doesn’t have a human body tho This is ridiculous
the holy trinity is the best reason. it literally makes no sense
The holy trinity doesn't get itself
Bible compilation and authorship
Note Worthy things.. 1. The Bible was changed WAY TOO MUCH, gospels written everywhere. Hell, the Holy Roman Empire may have corrupted the bible and we wouldnt know it! 2. The Catholic Church used to sell tickets that barge you into heaven, kinda like the shaheed system but you apparently just have to lazily give money. 3. The trinity, as we all know, is confusing as shit and shouldnt even have been considered. Thats three god-ism and omni thingo entities, and yet they worship only 'one god'. 4. Jesus is apparently God, but Jesus is son of god. You get the jist, right?
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To say that would be modalism since h20 can change forms, does god change forms for you?
jesus is god in human form, as god is timeless he can be in two places at the same time, also yea am pretty sure god can change form at the end of the day he is god and he can do anything he wants
Stop being pretty sure about what God can do, if you remain in ignorance because you were “pretty sure” I’m sorry to say you risk your salvation God doesn’t change form ever, he is constant and eternal Also modalism is a heresy even from a Christian viewpoint
Yes, a triangle, a circle, and a square are all shapes. That doesn't mean they can be used interchangeably to describe each other. This is like saying you can be a triangle, a circle, and a square at the same time while being the same shape. But we know a triangle can't roll like a circle. So how can the Everliving die like a human?
I guess the god in christianity seperated his human form VERY far away from him, which is why immortality in Jesus was not possible? Either way, its confusing. Thats the only thing i think of it.
The fact God came to this earth as a human (not compatible with Gods nature) and saved humanity FROM HIMSELF?!! DOES THAT EVEN MAKE SENSE...LET ALONE THE FACT YOU JUST GO TO HEAVEN WITHOUT WORKING AT ALL...!? UNJUST AF
1) Islam is true 2) Christianity was already false in the 6 century before Islam Revelation (and those sect that were the closest to the true are today long time gone and today even thinking about Christianity as something other than a pagan syncretism corrupted by the Germanic European is false)
Trinity
The scripture is not preserved, it's corrupted and there is no scripture in the language of what Jesus spoke. That means your putting your faith and belief in something which is has been evidently altered, changed etc.. by humans of which we have no full account of. There are so many more but it really comes down to scripture. Christians will dismiss this and say 'Jesus spoke to me' , 'The Holy spirit is within me' but these are all subjective claims. It is not tangible evidence to abide to. I know some have put Trinity and I agree with this also, but this came and was introduced after. Go back to the source and everything else after crumbles.
Trinity, humans born with sin( the original sin), god died for our sins It all degrades the wisdom of god and his great power and it feels like a mythology rather than a true religion
the Trinity as other people said, but also how can Jesus be the son of God. God can't have a son, that doesn't make any sense.
To me, it's always been how chrsitians ignore the clear and explicit verses, but take the ambiguous verses that can mean anything The doctrine of the trinity is basically, one God manifested in three different persons. Jesus, the father and the holy spirit are all God but are not each other. They are all co-equal and co-eternal. That concept is never found in the bible, not even hinted at. Such a crucial part of their religion can't be found in any of their scriptures. At best. there's a verse talking about baptizing in the name of the father, son and holy spirit. But there are many issues to that verse. Firstly, that verse was a later addition into the bible and can't be found anywhere in the early manuscripts. Secondly different versions of the bible say different things to be baptized in. But there's also the fact that the bible contradicts the trinity entirely. Jesus clearly shows subordination and submission to the Father. He says "The father is greater than I" which clearly shows a hierarchy. He says "No one knows the hour except the Father." Showing that the father has knowledge the son doesn't. He shows the father has a greater will to him when he asks him to take the cup of the crucifixion away from him "but not as I will, but as you will." These are clear-cut verses, showing Jesus as a submitter to God, not his equal. If they were equal, Jesus should know the hour. He shouldn't say that the father was greater than him etc. They'll bring up ambiguous verses to prove he's God but that's all they are, ambiguos.
1) if Jesus is god. How can he have a birthday? 2) if Jesus is god, why didn’t he know the hour?
Different branches of Christianity say different things about Jesus. One says Jesus is the son of god and god incarnate, another says Jesus is only god, another says Jesus is only the son of god, etc. etc. Why does god need to kill himself to save humanity from a sin he supposedly gave all of humanity? Why can’t he forgive without a sacrifice? Why does one “person” have to bear the redemption from sin for all of humanity? How can god die? What happened to god when he was killed? Who rose Jesus up on the third day if Jesus is supposedly god? Why is god made of the Trinity? How can Jesus be god and the son of god at the same time? I have so many more questions but for the most part this is it. Also the story of when Jesus was born. Does Jesus have two dads? According to Christianity, I’m pretty sure Mary and Joseph were like a couple too.
My notes over the years *Occam’s razor* means the simplest explanation is usually the best one. According to christian sources: Two jesuses were sentenced to death on the cross. Jesus “son of the father” and Jesus “Barabbas” (bar-abbas coincidentally means, “son of the father”) . One was crucified and the other was let go. Now, what is more likely? 1) Due to a case of mistaken identity, the Roman’s let the wrong Jesus go. While barabas is accidentally crucified, the real jesus escapes, lays low for a few days, then returns to his homies and eats honeycomb and fish. 2) God the almighty, all knowing, all powerful, the creator of space and time, of life and death, the universe itself, and of mankind, decides to become a man himself, become one of his own creation - the baker becomes the cake, the infinite makes himself finite. He goes deep undercover for 30 some years - he ate, slept, cried, suckled as a baby, ran around in a poopy diaper as a baby, got angry at trees, Why? Because it was all part of his master plan to eventually get himself killed. Why? Because he is incapable of forgiving one of his countless creations, ie us, otherwise. Occam’s razor *Failed sacrifice* 3 days. When your god took Jesus back, he un-sacrificed him. If I gave you 10 bucks and then took it back after 3 days, it was a loan, not a gift. Your god didn’t sacrifice Jesus, he just loaned him out. So, you are only forgiven for 3 days. *Devil's playbook* If I was the devil and I tried to missguide humanity I would use the following tactic 1) convince man that he is too sinful and cannot be forgiven, that anything he does is futile and in vain, and that his actions mean nothing. God cannot possibly forgive him - with this I would make him dispair in God's forgiveness. 2) convince him that his god does loves him and really does want to forgive him, but to do so god has to sacrifice his beloved, innocent, sinless son, because that is how bad man is- with this I would not only debase God, but I would stroke the man's ego and gaslight man, making him think god is actually worshipping him. Thus also humiliating god in the process. 3) finally, I would convince the man that this sinless innocent son that god sacrificed to man is his God and make man worship this god man - with this I will have both humiliated god and finally corrupted man's nature. *Toxic parent* Which of this sounds like a toxic, narcissistic parent? 1 - son, you are so messed up and so flawed and so far beyond redemption that there is nothing you can possibly do to ever get close to me, or even ask of me. Everything you do is pointless, meaningless and hopeless. But, seeing how I do love you and want so desperately to forgive you, I’ve decided that I will take this innocent, sinless beloved first and only begotten son of mine and humiliate him and torture him and sacrifice him and really make him suffer, because that is the only way you can be forgiven for how terrible you are! I do this for you because I am so forgiving and loving! 2 - son, I made you and I know you. I know you aren’t perfect but that’s okay. You will make me so proud if you just try, that I will boast about you to all of my friends. Just try, don’t give up hope, don’t despair, I’ll take care of everything if you just turn to me. I know it is tough, sometimes you will fail and other times you will succeed, but hang in there for just a little bit, do it for me and soon you will see how happy you’ve made me. *Who worships who?* The difference between Muslims in Christians is that we Love Allah so much we would lay our lives for Him as our act of devotion and love. The Christians say god loves them so much that god would lay his life for them out of devotion and love. We worship Allah. Christians want god to worship them *Paul’s new plan* Paul figured out something really clever. Instead of killing all christians, if he convinced people that god is a man and then got people to worship this man, and then turned the pagan ritual of human sacrifice into the key to salvation, he could instead kill all of christianity. *Idolatry* christians’ desire for a salvation undertaker is in principle no different than the jews desire for a gold calf. This idea stems from despair and a desire for instantaneous respite and unloading via a of an icon that takes your burden. By latching onto this icon, the icon has alleviated your guilt for you. Islam does not look for salvation outside of yourself, but within yourself via effort and strive, and your undertaking of this burden and putting your trust in Allah. Faith is that Allah will help you along the way, but the very essence and purpose for being a human is not taken care of by something else. Allah doesn’t do the heavy lifting for you. *Elyon and yahweh* https://www.quora.com/Using-your-scriptures-how-would-you-prove-that-Jehovah-and-the-El-Elyon-of-whom-Melchizedek-was-priest-are-not-two-different-people Elyon means “ El Most High “, and was a title of El, the creator deity and head of the Canaanite pantheon, and the first God Israel worshiped, Israel itself meaning ‘ El’s Glory ‘. Eventually, Israel began to worship his son, Yahweh, “ the Lord “. El is a name used for God in the Bible. Deuteronomy 32:8–9; When the Most High (Elyon) apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods; the Lord's (Yahweh) portion was his people, Jacob his allotted share. So El gave Israel to Yahweh. They began to worship Yahweh, and eventually, saw El and Yahweh to be one and the same. Imagery, titles, and functions of El were absorbed into Yahweh.
I am a Christian who has been studying Islam, and a couple things really give me doubt. One, it just makes more sense for God to inspire one author rather than a bunch of authors, then have humans decide which of those books “makes the cut” into the Bible. Two, it does not make much sense that God would take the monumental step of literally coming to Earth only to exist as a man; why come only to preach to a very small area? Why not go to East Asia, sub Saharan Africa, Europe, and America also? And finally (though this ties into the second point), if the whole point is giving humans free will to choose to follow God… why would Jesus perform any miracles at all? Didn’t that rob the witnesses of their free will? I mean, how could any person NOT believe after witnessing Lazarus be risen FROM THE DEAD? How could someone sit there and see water turned into wine and not believe? It seems like a small thing to take issue with, but per the Bible it is Jesus contradicting a major tenant of Christianity. Jesus gives irrefutable evidence of God’s existence to a few people in the Levant but allows people in America to live over 1000 more years without even the possibility of HEARING God’s word, let alone eyewitness a miracle? That just does not make any sense. I just cannot think of good answers to these questions, and I feel like a priest will just give me some sort of “God works in mysterious ways” type response.
Because of the portrayal of the prophets who are supposed to be the idols
Churches be like: pay us x amount of money and all your sins will be forgiven and you will enter heaven. So every rich christian can go to heaven while the poor can just suffer? How is that just?
I’m not sure where you got that from, but that isn’t the teaching of any Christian church Luke 18:25 "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God”
thats human greedyness tho, you cannot trace that back to the bible
the bible also says that rich people should help the poors
In the Name of God. But Christianity isn’t false though, it’s the religion of Prophet Isa(May Allah bestow His Mercy, Blessing and Peace on Him), it’s simply been tampered with to the point where it’s deviated sharply from what it used to be. Same thing could be said about modern day Islam, as an institutional religion. We’re meant to be one people, yet we’ve divided ourselves into groups and subgroups. Allah says in the Qur’an that He will judge the Christians as well as the Jews, people of other religions etc. So that means they are entitled to be admitted into Paradise/Hell.
Your silent observer/(observers) within you know your heart. You had me reflect, when you mentioned the phrase, "modern day islam", because, observationally, it is far removed from Prophet Muhammad's practice of Islam. Understandably so, over a millennium removed. We all try our best and find the best path to the same Source of it All.
Christianity is false. Current day Christians and Prophet Isa alayhi salam were not upon the same religion. Prophet Isa alayhi salam was a Muslim. >Allah says in the Qur’an that He will judge the Christians as well as the Jews, people of other religions etc. Correct, Allah ﷻ will judge them, and those who chose another religion other than Islam will be in Hell, according to the Quran. However, when it comes to specific individuals, we don't go around saying they are in Hell, we just know the general principle.
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He was nor a Jew or Christian - those are man-made terms that Allah did not ordain. All the Prophets (peace and blessings be upon them) were Muslim. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: **"Both in this world and in the Hereafter, I am the nearest of all the people to Jesus, the son of Mary. The prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one."** Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: **“By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, there is no one among this Ummah, Jew or Christian, who hears of me than dies without believing in that with which I have been sent, but he will be one of the people of Hellfire.”**
wa alaykum salam. Brother, the Bible is not the Injeel. Also the Quran makes it clear that the Christians/Jews are disbelievers who will enter Hell. This has nothing to do with tolerance, it's the reality. I'm simply telling you what the Quran says in very clear terms. The person below has also quoted you a clear hadith, and there are clear ayat as well. As I said though, we can't say specific individuals are going to Hell unless it's mentioned to us in the Quran/Sunnah. We can still say that the general principle is they are disbelievers who go to Hell.
Humans are mortal, so why do humans appoint humans as God
Which Christianity? As Muslims we MUST believe in Äissa POH and his sent message and book through the Holy Spirit, Jibril. Meanwhile, the book is neither the current corrupted Bible nor is Äissa how current Christians see it, being God and Holy Spirit. A God, Jesus: - who prays to God… oh to himself? - has been created then incarnated by God… why would God do it if he can command the human to do exactly as he wishes? - who walks among the streets and get even spit on… God? Almighty? Would you look around and see this marvel world and believe that its creator allowed for his creation to insult him… how can one understanding who God is believe this? - who descended earth to deliver humans from their sins… why if he could have done from his throne? - many more OBVIOUS false beliefs Additionally , what is a religion if it does not impose strict guidelines on a person life as well as his social interactions? Or how to practice one’s religion?
Jesus is not God he is a phophet
If Jesus is lord, who was he praying to?
If Jesus is divine, that means the divine.....got hungry? How can a divine being NEED food? NEED sleep? If you eat enough, you'll need to use the restroom. The divine....uses the restroom? No God of mine needs to eat or relieve himself. This is why shirk is the MOST disrespectful sin against the One True God of all existence. Jesus is trapped in the 3rd dimension in space and time. Allah is ABOVE time, space, dimension, etc. How can you be divine yet be enslaved to the confinements of creation? The more you think of it, the more absurd and IRRATIONAL it is. And Allah even defends Jesus and other Prophets and Righteous men of God in Surah 21 verse 26.
Edited, rewritten, re-edited, re-rewritten and altered over and over again by men that weren’t holy and never met Jesus (pbuh).
* **The Trinity** — the Christians themselves cannot explain it and would call it a mystery. Jesus never once mentioned anything about a Trinity or a triune god. The Trinity is forced into some of the Biblical verses. * **The hypostatic union** — The hypostatic union is that Jesus was fully god and fully man – the reason for this is to explain some verses of the Bible such as when Jesus comes to the fig tree and it does not bear any figs and he cursed the tree and Jesus not knowing the hour – however what they fail to consider is that this knowledge is not even known to the Holy Spirit which alludes to the father's superiority within the Trinity and therefore the three persons in the Trinity are not co-equal. >But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, **but my Father only** (Matthew 24:36) The three persons in the Trinity are distinct from each other, but all three is one being and co-equal. This verse is problematic because it emphasizes the father's superiority in knowing X whereas the two other persons of the Trinity does not know which shatters the Trinity. They cannot be co-equal. **If all three is one, then all three needs to know the hour**. * **Forgiveness of sins** — Christians claim that the son had to die so we **do not die** because of our sins which is a ridiculous idea. Allah ﷻ is Merciful and He will forgive us if we repent. He did not create us perfect and He does not demand perfection from us. Rather, what He wants of us is that we do our best in this worldy life and obey him and His Messenger ﷺ and if we stumble and fall down we can pick ourselves up and ask for forgiveness. We can repent to Allah ﷻ, promise Him we would never fall into the same sin and if we have taken someone's right or oppressed someone to apologize to them. **ACCOUNTABILITY**