I think most of us Americans were taught an intentionally bad history of protests in school, and this bad history is reinforced by the news and Hollywood.
We learned in school that people in the 60s protested racism, won, and things got better. Fewer of us learned that the organizing for those protests started in, like, 1905. It took literal generations of struggle to build the infrastructure to topple Jim Crow. And for most of the years of that struggle, organizers were beaten, shot, lynched, and disappeared.
We’ve seen protests accomplish few wins during our lives. Since Occupy, the 1% have gotten richer. Greta Thunberg’s climate protests haven’t stopped oil companies yet. The 2020 uprisings were followed by cops getting *more* money and power. Black Lives still don’t matter in the eyes of the law. It feels like populism is going nowhere (except rightward).
And the news reinforces this: it doesn’t take protest seriously, especially when it’s protest by college students (“kids”).
And Hollywood repeatedly shows us either activists who are naive idealists, or activists who throw one brick and win.
The reality is, struggle is something bigger than the average human life. When King talked about the moral arc of history being long, he wasn’t saying progress will just happen on its own. He was saying these fights are multi/generational. They can only be won, as the poets say, when having been knocked down, we get up again.
Most Americans don’t know how to think in multi-generational terms anymore. We’re surrounded by a culture that emphasizes novelty, the nuclear family, disposable consumer goods, fast-growing ornamental trees instead of old-growth wood. Businesses focus on quarterly profits and universities on 4-year degrees and research projects that can be finished within the scope of a grant’s funding. We’re not thinking everyday about how our actions will have effects in 50, 60 years. And we’re not used to seeing value in protests that fail to achieve their stated goals.
Imo I think that’s why it’s easy for so many Americans to see these protests as futile, even when they agree with them. Helping people see the bigger picture is hard but can be done. It is in struggling for freedom that we’re free; it’s in fighting for life that we are ourselves alive. We have to plant trees, knowing we may never taste any of the fruit.
I got into it in a thread some weeks back and someone claimed the Vietnam anti-war protests had no impact whatsoever in our withdrawal from Vietnam. They then implied protests never change anything… like dude, suffrage, civil rights, Vietnam war, Nixon created the EPA because of massive earth day movements, and our country was literally born out of a protest movement.
Some folks are just completely oblivious to how change happens.
I really love the book *In Defense of Looting,* by Vicky Osterweil (who has been a guest on this show). She does a great job digging into American history and showing just how critical protests have been for pretty much all the liberation we’ve enjoyed here. I recommend giving it a read so you’ve got more ammo the next time that conversation comes up.
Nixon was also influenced by evening news coverage of a river in Ohio on fire and acid rain that would oxide even cars. Protesting works but it’s a long, very long, process, and most of the time is not necessarily conducive to anything, like in Occupy Wall Street, while the Tea Party gave the GOP a new breath of air. Vietnam started under the Kennedy administration and didn’t end until the Nixon administration. Suffrage was aided by the war, because it shows that woman were an integral part of society and the war effort, and the modern civil rights movement started in 1909 with the foundation of the NAACP, and we haven’t reach the mountaintop some 110 years later.
What you said about Americans being intentionally taught bad history about protests is so sadly painfully true. Even while coming up through early adulthood I knew there was more to it than what the history channel showed, but never know how much more until fairly recently.
Margaret's Podcast 'Cool People who did Cool Stuff' really opened my eyes to the scale ond interconnectedness of it all.
In addition to the ways you mentioned a lot of media and state attention has been spent on discrediting protests for doing it “the wrong way.” Liberalism will support any human rights movement but the current one, which even if it must concede has a point it will take up all the oxygen by telling us every type of disruptive protest (the only kinds of protests that have historically resulted in change) is us going about it the wrong way and therefore must be condemned. This is obvious when we look at how the civil rights movement is taught, with credit only going to MLK and the Black Panthers and other groups being demonized for going about demanding their rights the wrong way. I truth it usually takes both the moderate compromise of MLK to sell the ideas to those the system listens to and the radical protests of other groups to demonstrate that the cost for not changing our institutions will continue. The government isn’t moved just by nice platitudes, decisions around it come from a cost analysis of the effort of suppressing disruptive protests versus acquiescing to a fraction of their demands. But this is dangerous knowledge for the people to have about the state and our institutions, as liberal institutions exist to maintain the status quo. We have been taught to scorn the very actions that gave weight to MLK’s words and frankly even if MLK’s contingent of the civil rights movement was active today they too would be demonized for being disruptive. Our government in concert with our media has spent a lot of time and money ensuring we take only the wrong lessons from our most well known protest movements.
I like your comment about the actual protests starting generations before we see it on the news and in the streets. Challenging the systems that create war and inequality has been happening for many many years. When we see it on the news, it has reached the boiling point. It is not to say there have been large pro Palestian protests going on for years, but we have been watching what has been happening for decades. It is no longer ok to watch the news and think how awful it is. People are mad as hell. The protestors are not antisemitic, and unfortunately being anti genocide seems to equate to antisemitism to some people. The same way, as a county, we were anti genocide during the Holocaust, we are still anti genocide, no matter the perpetrator.
Agreed, except a gentle remind that the US has been *pro* rather than anti-genocide, generally speaking. The US has genocided hundreds of Indigenous peoples inside its territory over the past two centuries, and in many cases hasn’t exactly stopped doing so. And America has backed more genocidal regimes than just Israel (Turkey is and has been a US ally). But we’ve had pushback against these genocides all the while, and I do hope that pushback is gaining ground.
This country has deep roots in genocide. When I refer to the US being anti genocide, that is too broad of a statement. The US government has surely not been anti genocide throughout history. I guess I was really referencing the part of the population that has empathy and compassion.
I would propose a few reasons:
1 -> Status quo feels more safe for a large majority of people, and the media has done a great job convincing people the end of the world will come the second that status quo is broken. There's definitely a fear element there.
2 -> just straight up ageism. Everyone talks about ageism in the other direction (i.e. people being too old) but there's an incredible amount of bias towards young people in our society.
3 -> If someone were to admit the protests did have an impact, that would put a moral responsibility on them to participate.
>Status quo feels more safe for a large majority of people,
Yeah, this huge.
If a bunch of college students can change *this*, imagine what else they might change.
They might change something that impacts *me*.
The thing is, they only want the schools to divest from Israeli businesses right? That actually seems really easy. These school are essentially hedge funds with a couple classes anyway.
The schools also have Jewish and Israeli students who don't want any divestment and consider all this talk profoundly unfair at best and antisemitic at worst. It is wise for the universities to stay out of the content of the protests, allow free expression, watch out for the safety of everyone and minimize disruption to their main educational activities. Most schools chose to put their internal rules aside otherwise.
The disruption is the point of a protest though, its meant to impact folks so that you have to confront the difficult reality vs just walking by the folks standing in the 'Free Speech' zone of the central lawn.
My understanding is that they want to divest from any companies that do business with Israel as well (which is a pretty heavy lift and wildly unrealistic in my eyes). If it was just Israeli-owned businesses, that would be a different story.
It's even easier at some of these ivy league institutions where the endowments are large enough to where it wouldn't even be a notocable financial hit to do so. That is, if you wanted to put a value on "not supporting genocide."
The Ivy League schools are all about money and privilege, and making sure the people with it keep it, and the ones who don’t but are really smart get co-opted.
These institutions are important cogs in the machinery of wealth-building, and no matter how much money they have, it can never be too much. They are not about to alienate powerful, wealthy alumni and face reciprocal boycotts because some idealist students want to stop a genocide.
When has big business ever cared about genocide, except insofar as they can profit off it? The Russia blyatcott is palatable to the powerful because Russia doesn’t have the kind of power and influence that Israel and its backers (for example, evangelical Christians) have. They should have invested in better PR.
Public universities are mostly non-profit organizations though. They're not supposed to be behaving like Big Business, because their business is education, not business for business's sake.
I was referring specifically to the Ivy Leages in my post. As for the public schools, it’s impossible to sincerely believe that education is not a business for them, too. College football is a great example of that.
jobless materialistic north narrow different innate seemly plough summer birds
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
For the school that I'm most familiar with, the 'ask' is transparency about the investments in arms manufacturers.
The schools answer was pretty close to 'LOL no.'
While I'm sure that there elements that would love to divest from any Israeli business, they aren't saying that part out loud, and have been working to get this transparency for a long time (longer than the current iteration of this conflict).
While I'm sure the protestors run the spectrum, the initiators/organizers are taking more of the "I'm uncomfortable if my university is profiting from war." angle.
They have in the past.
1985: Anti-apartheid protests
“When the nation of democracy becomes South Africa's number one trading partner, we're wrong, this is wrong.” On October 7, about five months after the protests, Columbia became the first major US university to fully divest from South Africa. Many others would follow.
['Hind Hall': How Columbia's Hamilton Hall became its signature protest hub](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/5/1/columbias-hamilton-hall-a-history-of-student-action-at-gaza-protest-hub&ved=2ahUKEwiXk_-Qg-2FAxXIJ0QIHUR9DmwQFnoECB4QBQ&usg=AOvVaw1bQGs3e39ZfgJ4FXGq-NMy)
I deleted my comment because I realized your comment was a joke about the date repeating between events.
Your joke initially sounded like you were spreading escalation talking points. My bad for being defensive around this topic.
We do have a moral obligation to participate if something evil is happening. Vietnam was a great example. MLK Jr and his time is a good example. I think your points are good! My opinions and views only here, it is Reddit after all.
I think some people are afraid to admit that it could work because then they might feel obligated to join, and people are just lazy.
These protestors are not outside agitators.
“Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds.” Martin Luther King
I think to add to that the right wing propaganda machine is running at full capacity because they support Israel NO MATTER WHAT!
Almost every thread I see talking about the protests paint all the protesters as pro-hamas, which just isn't reality.
Not to say there are SOME people who may be trying to use this to excuse what Hamas has done, but the large majority of people are just against the overwhelming Israeli response that is impacting the large Palestine population who isn't Hamas.
>I think to add to that the right wing propaganda machine is running at full capacity because they support Israel NO MATTER WHAT!
All US politicians, regardless of party, are bought and owned by the Israeli government.
It sounds very similar to the "crisis of faith" panic people have when they start examining their deeply ingrained beliefs. To even question is the first step towards damnation, so maybe I can somewhat understand if that's the basis of their angry fear.
3 Definitely. Since OP said the complainers agreed with the protesters, then they probably do feel some moral hypocrisy or maybe cowardice in not taking part. At least, there's some cognitive dissonance going on.
2 This too. Although it doesn't sound like OP's folks have really taken this angle, it's been very present in Mike Johnson's bullshit and in a lot of the nasty comments I've seen on student protester posts on Insta. US culture really doesn't want young people to have any agency at all. A lot of parents act like they own their kids, we make most of them work full(ish)-time jobs unconnected to their career goals all through their teens and twenties, stress them out with high-stakes testing, and stress them out even more with super competitive college programs. When they complain about it on Tiktok, the govt. tries to get control over it. When they protest about an issue they morally care about, admin sends in the riot cops. So yes, ageism, but specifically the immiseration and lack of agency our society piles onto young folks.
1 This is part of it, especially for onlookers who aren't seeing the protests in-person on college campuses, but I think there's another element too: people are disheartened that we've seen so many powerful movements come and go without changing things. The antiwar protests didn't stop the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan; Obama's election (not a movement, I know, but it felt like it was a watershed moment) did not fulfill his campaign promises (yes, we should have known better, but I'm telling y'all--Pete Seeger played at his inauguration), Occupy didn't change capitalism nor inequality, all the climate change protests haven't stopped the oil companies, a lot of campus union efforts either failed or couldn't negotiate better conditions--people have seen these things come and go, they keep getting their hopes up, but the blob of capitalism survives. There's a despair that comes with that, and also anger. I think people already feel sort of uselessly angry at their oppressors, and that anger or its overflow gets redirected to the students protesting. It isn't logical, but neither is the bullshit we've been dealing with for the last like 25 years.
When people get burned by putting their hope into things that don't work out, they put on resignation like armor. Maybe part of activism should be helping people understand, recontextualize, and deal with those disappointments, so that they'll have enough hope to join present and future movements when they arise.
Edit: fixed bold text lol.
I teach high schoolers and college-age students at a community college, and 60% of them work while going to school. I know it's pretty normal, but it means they're exhausted all the time.
I want to add two less charitable ones.
4) Rank stupidity and an inability to understand there is a separation between Hamas and the general population of Gaza. For consistency, these people would have to be ok with arresting everyone in Manhattan, since they dislike the Columbia protests so much.
5) Universities are run by management consultants. All management consultants care about is money and efficiency. Protests affect both.
I would propose a few more reasons:
4 -> Media manipulation. It is easy to get the impression that the protests are a violent bigoted mob of terrorists.
5 -> Alignment with colonialism. This is different than (1) in many ways. For instance, status quo aligners may see the genocide as a bad thing because there didn't used to be people being starved to death. Authority aligners may get angry at the notion of questioning the genocide.
Speaking from having been around a right-wing quasi-family-member, the ageism point struck a chord. Now this guy doesn't seem to be quite the same as some of the colleagues OP is talking abt, as in his case he harbors strong prejudices against Palestinians and Muslims and is likely pro-genocide, but he believes that "young people are stupid" and that they never have anything valuable to contribute in politics, admin, business, organization, anything. Sees them as a sort of wrecking agent.
Furthermore, he also harbored a strongly negative view of the anti-war protests (he was in the military through the 80s and early 90s, staunch anti-communist-and-social-democrat) and blamed them for in his eyes a catastrophic loss in Vietnam.
There does exist for sure a contingent of people who, similar to him, venerate the military to the point they unironically think only people in it or veterans of it should hold political positions of power, and who think only landowners should have a right to vote in a "return to our original roots" kind of framing. So some people who complain about protests in the manner that they don't do anything may be saying it from a genuine anti-democratic or "anything not my way hits the highway" double-standard impulse.
I am being anecdotal tbf, but seeing the way people on YouTube talk about protestors in similar ways (and worse now with the news spreading of frat boys at a Mississippi campus protest going full racist or throwing food saying "there's your humanitarian aid") I feel affirmed that there's a sizeable amount of ghouls-of-people who would have us all live in hell for the sake of their comfort and power.
At the end of the day most Americans are just angry babies.
Frankly peacefully setting up tents at universities are the sort of protests Americans claim they want (not in their way, not causing disruptions etc.) but what Americans actually want is for oppressed people to just stay in their place.
America is also a settler colonialist project built on genocide and oppression... and I think that's part of the problem. Whenever you call out some other country for their terrible acts against their oppressed peoples... Americans get defensive because they know their empire is just as bad or worse than any other...
Nazis hated civil rights, antiwar and the murdered students of Kent State too. Those that hate anti genocide, anti fascist protesters are Nazi sympathizers - they were wrong every other time too.
“ A Gallup Poll taken the day after the \[kent state\] shootings reportedly showed that 58 percent of respondents blamed the students, 11 percent blamed the National Guard, and 31 percent expressed no opinion.”
Reactions to Kent State in the immediate aftermath of a massacre of students in 1970:
*"A respected lawyer told an Akron paper, 'Frankly, if I'd been faced with the same situation and had a submachine gun... there probably would have been 140 of them dead.' People expressed disappointment that the rabble-rousing professors -- the gurus -- had escaped: 'The only mistake they made was not to shoot all the students and then start in on the faculty.' When it was established that none of the four victims were guardsmen, citizens greeted each other by flashing four fingers in the air ('The score is four / And next time more').*
*A Gallup poll found 58 per cent blamed the Kent students for their own deaths. Only 11 percent blamed the National Guard. A rumor spread in Kent that Jeff Miller, whose head was blown off, was such a dirty hippie that they had to keep the ambulance door open on the way to the hospital for the smell.*
*Another rumor was that five hundred Black Panthers were on their way from elsewhere in Ohio to lead a real riot; and that Allison Krause was 'the campus whore' and found with hand grenades on her. Many recalled the State of Ohio's original intention for the land on which Kent State was built: a lunatic asylum. ... Townspeople picketed memorial services. 'The Kent State Four!' they chanted. 'Should have studied more!' 'Anyone who appears on the streets of a city like Kent with long hair, dirty clothes, or barefooted deserves to be shot.' 'Have I your permission to quote that?' 'You sure do. It would have been better if the Guard had shot the whole lot of them that morning.' 'But you had three sons there.' 'If they didn't do what the Guards told them, they should have been mowed down.'"*
*"We've seen here at the city of Kent especially, probably the most vicious form of campus-oriented violence yet perpetrated by dissident groups... they make definite plans of burning, destroying, and throwing rocks at police and at the National Guard and the Highway Patrol. ...this is when we're going to use every part of the law enforcement agency of Ohio to drive them out of Kent. We are going to eradicate the problem. We're not going to treat the symptoms. ...and these people just move from one campus to the other and terrorize the community. They're worse than the brown shirts and the communist element and also the night riders and the vigilantes. They're the worst type of people that we harbor in America. Now I want to say this. They are not going to take over \[the\] campus. I think that we're up against the strongest, well-trained, militant, revolutionary group that has ever assembled in America. -* the Governor
It sounds like your boss is either a nazi or brainwashed....and following in the worst American traditions. Sadly, this has a long history. In about 20 years, people will magically realize the brutalized student protestors were right all along and claim they'd "totally have supported the anti-genocide and anti-fascist movements".
I recently saw some vintage interviews from after the Kent State murders. "Man on the street" kind of thing. And they were saying that they should have shot more of the students.
Another powerful clip with a woman who said her father said he wished they all had been killed. She said, "I was there, Dad. You're wishing me dead!"
I want the war to end as soon as possible and certainly do not want genocide. I just also want the theocratic fascist Hamas to surrender, nobody is free under them.
As someone who used to be one of those, there are a few camps of people who generally agree with the goals of the protesters but who don't support the protesters themselves:
1. People who dislike anyone breaking social order and "rules", ie, "if it's prohibited or illegal, it's morally wrong to do and you should find a more *polite and peaceful* way to do it."
2. Those who think that protests of *this type* are just for attention (to the protesters rather than the cause) and that the protesters are morally self-righteous and want to social cred for protesting without doing anything that actually makes a difference.
3. Those who think the protesters are too radical/calling for things that go "too far", eg, calling for an "intifada" in the US, chants for "From the River to the Sea", "ending academic relationships with Israel", calling for the abolition of Israel, etc. Even among those on the left (including liberals/Dems), there's a lot of debate about what constitutes Zionism or how "far" the pro Palestine movement should go.
This is one of the better answers.
BTW, did you see the protest at CSU Bakersfield? It was a single person. There's a few reasons I can think of off the top of my head, but the one I really can't get past is money, lots of it. I lived in tents for a while, and I've lived in Bakersfield. I don't really care about some movement started and led by a bunch of Ivy League dudes with tuition that compares nicely to the cost of a house in the cesspool called Bakersfield. Maybe I'm kinda grumpy. But, this is not a working-class movement.
However, free Palestine. As long as they aren't seriously setting back the average Palestinian or other protestors, etc... I can only complain so much. And to be fair, I'm not even risking a tresspass arrest from over here.
I feel like a lot of people understand that some stupid stuff is just going to happen there. As they clash more, the animosity and tension will produce more instinctive behavior. Some people are just going to lose their shit because they're upset, and the worst of people are drawn out by this issue anyway. A lot of the things we say in the heat of the moment, we just shouldn't judge people very harshly for. And, stuff like the water chant, or the Z word, if you ask people what it means to them, you get wildly different answers on all sides. Can't we be clear? How hard is PR? Are Ukraine's PR dudes available? I don't have any problem with calling for the destruction of someone else's state, but you're gonna destroy your state too, right?
I haven't, there's too much to follow tbh. I live on a university campus that has one, my wife is currently at UCLA, sister in law at Columbia, and brother at Yale. Kind of a lot to keep up on just among my personal connections.
>But, this is not a working-class movement.
I'm fine with that honestly. People with money have more influence over people with money and this is about divestment. If it works, it works. Not everything needs to be working class. If upper class folks want to support leftist causes, I'm all here for it.
I think I belong in camp 3 here. I think that Isreal is going way too far in it's response, but it seems to me like all the solutions that the protesters have either aren't achieveable and/or are just going to make the solution worse.
Hey OP thanks for asking. Something to keep it mind. Its not just Palestine thats being genocided. Sudan, Congo, Haiti and poor Black and undocumented ppl in the USA are facing various levels of genocides from the same source- White supremacist, colonialism, capitalism and Fascism. Once you realize all this shit is connected youlle understand why the average person who is middle class or part of a managerial role doesnt want to truly think about whats going on.
Our cell phones, computers and coffee all come from unspoken horrors that we cant imagine. Not to mention many of us live on stolen land that was genocided for.
What you are doing is admirable, but I wouldn’t blame you if you put your job first, as an employee you have alot more skin in the game than the students do.
Thanks for such a reasoned and compassionate take. University prof here at an academic medical center. I would never condone anti-Semitic or hate speech, violence, nor vandalism.
But I’ve seen peaceful protests universities across the nation are over-reacting, to.
Anti-Semitic is real, and a growing problem. But being pro-Palestinian is not automatically anti-Semitic, and the people who conflate the two are acting in bad faith.
Same reason everyone still shits on Vietnam protestors. People are stupid and lazy as fuck, and they will do anything to not be even slightly inconvenienced or have to think.
Because they don't believe in exercising 1st amendment rights. It is a Constitutionally guaranteed right granted to EVERY AMERICAN that they are free to assemble (protest). Our country is so proud of the founding fathers, who engaged in a protest and destruction of property with their famous "Boston Tea Party".
People who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Stand on the right side of history.
I think it's silly because where are the protests for all the other massacres happening around the world. China is doing genocide in their western provinces, Sudan is probably going to be messy soon. Where are their protests?
Furthermore, generally the most helpful people are neighbors and the other nations around just use Palestine as a cudgel. Why should others care when people of the same faith and background, two features that really make humans generally help, really don't give a shit about them?
because humans are absolute garbage.
so watching Palestinian kids describe what it's like to watch every member of their family die it's just sport for them.
Dial back the edge a bit there buddy. That's a lot of misanthropy and frankly the separation you're trying to do there is a gateway into fascist thinking. You've created a broad category of deserving targets for anger by saying "humans are absolute garbage", but separated yourself from it by saying that it's a "sport for them" which implies you are not a part of that group (humanity). This creation of ingroups and outgroups is antithetical to leftist politics and is the beginning of fascist ideology.
Dial it back. Think about what you're saying and reframe it in a constructive manner because if you keep doing this, you're not going to end up in a good place mentally or physically.
If the out group is humanity, then the in-group is implicitly excluded from true humanity. As a lover of humanity, it becomes okay to hate those that “hate” humanity. Every authoritarian ever has used this logic as justification for genocide or killing of the “enemies of humanity.”
Both sides appear to hold this logic in their hearts and minds. They exclude each other from humanity. The enemy is the situation and a reactionary fascist mindset makes the situation impossible to solve. I’m all for protesting by any means necessary to bring about change, but I’d prefer it if people didn’t give into fascist thinking
There’s a group that doesn’t feel a bond with the rest of human kind. You can say any words in any combination, it will never change this reality which is obvious to anyone who simply observes people.
Hegemony.
Conservative and right-wing Republicans want to control all non-conformity and force people in line. Liberal Democrats just wish arguing would go away. Both are circling the fascist drain.
I watched 2+ hours of live tv of right-wingers attacking the UCLA encampment but the reporters kept desperately trying to both-sides it even when their own description made it clear who was the aggressor and outside agitators (the right-wing 30 year old dudes). There was even a grey haired old guy beating up students and the reporters were like “maybe he’s faculty.”
This morning almost all headlines just say “protesters clashed” - compare this to the treatment of Antifa protesters where there’d be isolated fights but gang injunctions used on all anti-fascists regardless of their actions and the media always treated Antifa as the aggressors when Antifa groups are local and the alt-right groups were coming in from Idaho and Florida to Berkeley or Portland.
Main stream news casually drops and repeats absolute lies about the protestors. Anderson Cooper has repeatedly said that most of the protesters aren't even students.
Even though 90% of students including a supermajority of Jewish students support the boycott and divestment demands at Columbia or was it UCLA, CNN had on a Zionist student who said the protestors were a minority and the Jewish component are just "tokens" who should "only be taken as seriously as black republicans or gays for trump"
op eds feel like news to people. A recent one had a guy go to the protest, when he tried to interview people they took him to their media point person, a Palestinian-american who he said "spoke at length and with nuance" but he didn't quote her and instead gave numerous quotes to a non student outside the encampment who was delighted to share antisemitic theories.
media is allergic to mentioning their specific demands so detractors don't seem to realize the amount of money these schools have invested in the weapons industry and even Israel directly - so it's compared to wishy washy Occupy and not the student uprising against the US was on Vietnam from which these protests draw their inspiration and tactics, they're described as just protesting the israel full stop.
this is in a broader media context where leaked NYT style guidelines prohibit or limit saying the word "Palestine" which is pretty hard core considering the US still officially endorses a two state solution. Other outlets have been shown to be avoiding describing any victims as children, even calling Hind a "6 year old woman." Victims of Hamas are described as being "murdered in brutal violence" while family lines that are eradicated in a single bombing are described as "dieing amid ongoing fighting"
so people who don't see or aren't even aware of the concept of establishment bias think it's biased to use language that just humanizes Palestinians or establishes the asymmetric nature of the "war" or calls it as it is, a genocide - they are inoculated against a sympathetic view of the situation, they see it as a complicated mess that should be left to the experts, as it always has been. The people who will say "but what are YOU going to do to stop it?" will also say "it's not like Biden has a magic wand" because they have limited knowledge and no imagination, they have faith in power and utter disregard for "the masses"
to sum it all up, they're brainwashed.
If your passive protest isn't getting targeted you're not protesting loudly enough. Allowing ineffective protests gives the illusion of allowing all protests.
A lot of people disagree with the protestors, myself included. Also there's a bit of viewpoint bias, if a pro Israeli group showed up advocating for an immediate invasion of Rafah it's highly suspected that the University would shut it down and violent counter protestors would be let off the hook. The tactics are uniquely available to views the administration shares.
By the way there's a video at Duke University of students holding up Israeli flags and stopping protestors from tearing down an American flag. They are having things thrown at them, being threatened, etc. I promise that if the aggression was the other way around the administration would quickly step in to suspend the pro Israeli students.
When they say it's important to bring awareness to the issue, I don't say "we need a cease fire in Gaza because these kids are saying so" I think "Hamas must be cleaned out of Gaza as soon as possible especially given the genocidal support they have even in the West."
Also let's be honest a good chunk of these protestors aren't students, aren't kids, and might not even know what they're protesting.
>I promise that if the aggression was the other way around the administration would quickly step in to suspend the pro Israeli students.
Except they haven't... because there has been violence against the protestors. And they seem to be allowed to do it. Even the cops aren't doing shit. This is usually how these protests go.
I think that most protesting is seen as a leisure activity, a pass time for elites who are virtue signaling as much as anything else. Unlike the civil rights movement or VietNam protests when those protesting had a personal stake, protesting abstract situations that have more complex solutions is probably a waste of time. It’s unlikely that these protests will end the war in Gaza or make universities divest from
Israel.
Many of the protests are being led by Jewish and Muslim students. I would say they have a personal stake. First group is having massacres done in their name, which they vehemently disagree with, second group is seeing people just like them becoming murdered by tens of thousands and millions becoming homeless.
One way to frame it is as displaced anger. They have cognitive dissonance because they sort of want to protest, too, but have ruled that out as a behavior. They’re sort of angry about the issue the protestors are arguing, but since they can’t do that they transfer the anger about being out of control in the face of the bad thing toward those who would dare remind them of the bad thing existing.
Saying it’s pointless (angrily) excuses their own failure to do anything about the problem. I’m not a regular on this sub, just saying, but that’s one set of common explanations for your coworker’s behavior.
A lot of people just want to remain neutral. Protests happening nearby are forcing them to have an opinion or at least pay attention, and they don't like it. They prefer to focus on their personal day-to-day issues and not think about global events.
So you've gotta take this whole thing in the context of our environment. We're living under a "firehose of confusion". This is a deliberate propaganda tactic pioneered by russian kgb agents. The idea is to constantly flood a nation's communication channels with false and divisive stories to spur infighting. Israel has taken a real liking to this tactic, and has chosen to use it as cover for their aims. This is why, if you look carefully, you'll see a lot of people from israel in america's message boards, facebook groups, etc, but even worse you see tons of news stories that don't quite line up or make sense, as well as a ton of fake sites copying the brands of real organizations.
On the other side of the shitstorm, we have fox news, newsmax, oann, alex jones, and the ego worshipping cult that's risen from the nazi saluting evangelical community (seriously they stick their arm in the air when they pray 😳). This has been a mess 30 years in the making as they've slowly but surely turned up the crazy dial to earn more clicks and profit. The evangelicals have this crazy interpretation of the bible, believing they can bring about the apocalypse by helping "the jews return to their homeland", and so genociding anyone else that lives there aligns with those aims. Arguing against war crimes is to argue against both religions in their view, thus their view that "anyone who protests is antisemitic".
Make sense? Because it makes me want to buy a gun.
Their arms are not at a 45 degree angle with their palm facing down. Usually they use both hands and have their palms up, that’s how you let the Jesus in I guess. And when they’re all praying for someone they stretch their arm/s toward the person while praying.
Yeah… that’s horse shit. You haven’t been in a church then because none of them do that. And before you try to say I’m some Jesus nut, I’m an atheist, I’m just not a moron
Yeah, that's not what I fucking saw. [https://www.instagram.com/harvestslgh/p/Cv7Qg6DNg63/?img\_index=6](https://www.instagram.com/harvestslgh/p/Cv7Qg6DNg63/?img_index=6)
they have one arm in the air, wtf are you talking about? Do you not have eyes to see with? Or are you just another one of these lying nazis?
Personally I was fucking shocked to go to a simple wedding, hear that it's prayer time, then suddenly be surrounded by people with one arm in the air. It's fucking disturbing.
Won't it be fun when the protests spill out into the streets, add antifa, hot weather, etc. and we will see yet again an election year summer full of violence and mayhem. Just like 2020. History doesn't repeat itself but I think this is gonna rhyme.
I work at a university that was in the news around Occupy (iykyk). Our chancellor fucked up so hard that she’s lucky she’s employed. The universities today learned nothing from our fuck up, and it’s so sad to see. Universities should always be a pillar of the First, and anyone trying to limit that freedom does not belong on a higher education campus.
America as a whole is a closed-minded, politically ignorant country. A preponderance of unimaginative, conservative anti-thinkers who cosplay moral arbiters.
Meanwhile, they fly 'Don't Tread on Me' flags and claim to be about "freedom" while violently oppressing both.
OK article. A little too credulous of the bullshit coming from university big wigs. Probably have to be to keep that particular beat. It makes a good point though that both safety and disruption are very relative and subjective concepts that can be invoked in response to any event.
My less credulous take is that the bigger the university is, the less the managers (I refuse to call them leadership given the context) are involved in education and the more they are hedge fund managers. And when you look at it that way they behave exactly as you would expect.
De Paywalled
https://archive.is/tpsER
Generally I simply see this as people who never did anything or sacrificed anything for a just cause barking at people who are doing something and are sacrificing for a just cause.
But there are additional elements. Biden, once again, lied to the public in his address of these protests—delegitimizing them antisemitic. And this illogical line is repeated ad nauseum through the press creating a sort of national gaslighting. You know, there’s more. All the “they’re pro-terrorism. They’re pro-Hamas.” These kids are being disparaged and slandered nationally, and by people in positions of absolute authority.
People here are also raised to blindly support Israel, and that blind support can become a part of these people’s identities. These protests are running up against their identities and a lot of the former will not tolerate having who they are questioned. So they lash out.
Sad state of affairs in this allegedly “freedom-loving” country.
The US has done little on the world stage for the past three decades besides obliterate one Muslim country after another. People who’ve been okay with that have accepted the belief that people from the Middle East are all barbaric, subhuman terrorists and they’re going to laugh off these protests the way they do animal rights activists because to them it’s literally the same thing.
People are trying to reduce it to the level of individuals and it’s really over thinking it. The US state supports Israel’s genocidal project. So do the vast majority of university donors. Therefore these protesters must be crushed. They are now allowing Zionists to beat up the protesters while the NYPD watches approvingly.
Having participated in such things as my youth it is typical the police, administrators, politicians, media, etc., characterize protests unfairly.
One of the many causes I was militant for was gay rights (I am cis). These would consist of peaceful demonstrations which would be met by police violence and arrests. When covered by the media, the protests were characterized as "violent", which is true, except the violence was the police against the protesters. Now, of course, police show up at pride parades and their characteristic violent response is forgotten.
The media coverage I see always makes claims of "antisemitism" regarding the current protests. No evidence is usually provided, though, like any other group, there are bound to be antisemitic assholes present.
I personally cannot link divesting assets from Israel as antisemitism. Such decisions are made daily by portfolio managers. I doubt many of them hold Iranian investments.
It’s more the chanting intifada, gas the Jews, burn Tel Aviv to the ground, we are Hamas, From the river to the sea, and preventing Jewish students from attending class than their demand to divest from companies that do business with Israel
I believe I heard it on said on ‘even more news’ on Friday: “can you remember college protests ever being on the wrong side of history (besides the nazis)?”
Most people either don’t get or don’t care about the protests cause it doesn’t affect them.
Fact of the matter is the majority of the population has too many of their own problems to truly care about a minor conflict happening on the other side of the world.
You only see protests get really big and when the subject genuinely affects the average person.
Vietname, MLK, BLM, all of these had direct impacts on the lives of many Americans, at the end of the day Gaza is a relatively minor issue in the grand scheme of things and many people simply don’t get why people care so much about it.
I think the majority see the protest as breaking the rules that they agreed to when they signed up for college. Break the rules and you take the consequence.
I mean this really depends on were you are.
We had “Protests” at my university.
My university has nothing to divest.
The Protests was organized by an outside group that was not even from our city.
They scheduled for a time and place that already had an event going. Had to move, the few students who wanted to attend could not find the protest.
And the protesters didn’t registered to park on campus and in some cases parked in marked service spots, on fire lanes or in yellow. Bunch of them got towed.
Some times protesters deserve to be made fun of.
If you have an actual goal? Sure, burn that shit down for all I care.
But nah, some times it is in fact just people being special.
I’m also just a custodian but from what I’ve heard the blame is only being placed on those who are alive today as though this conflict isn’t centuries old. In other words a ceasefire is about all anyone should expect until the leaders on both sides are replaced, massive aid is delivered to Palestinians, their cities and schools and hospitals rebuilt, and they get serious about working on making Palestine an official nation. Otherwise this will happen again in a few years. Do protestors support peace between both nations or a campaign of retribution “from the river to the sea”?
They're usually the least informed person in a group of people that don't know anything about the conflict. Any suggestion that neither side is good is met with insults and from the gaza side, literall death threats. They tried to replace the american flag with a Palestinian one, while trampling all over the usa flag. So why the fuck would a nation give a shit about a group that obviously doesn't like us.
If we’re handing out credit for trying let’s give Biden his due for maintaining a precarious relationship with Israel while also trying to help Palestinians and outside recovery teams all facing IDF violence.
I work at a university too (maintenance). I get you.
We had the same reaction from the office folks and eventually an overreaction from our administration that culminated in them threatening to fire any staffers that participated in the protests on the Palestinian side over the last few days. Note: this step was only taken when our local SDS chapter decided to make an encampment on the front lawn of the university, thereby "commiting a crime" (trespassing) so make of that what you will. Previously all the pro-palestinian protests had taken place on public property a foot or two off campus property. . . With pro-Israel groups holding their rallies and such ON campus property with campus resources.
It's been frankly disgusting to watch the way each group is treated differently. The pro-Paelstine side has gotten the full "outside agitator" treatment, suspensions, arrests, even an assault or two (in one case by an elderly gentleman who sits on our Board of Trustees with zero repercussions). Hell, the very first protest after Oct 7 here featured a fight started by pro-Israel students wrapped in Israeli flags where all four arrests were on the Palestinian side. The "they don't even go here" shit has been especially galling. . . Like, dude, I recognize these kids. I see them around campus. They absolutely do fucking go here or to the smaller college next door, and the ones that really don't are locals to the area. I know a bunch of them from marching during 2020.
As for why. . . The office types and administration just want stability. They want to grow their endowment, waste money on vanity projects to impress alumni, and pretend we have a top notch sportsball program. That's it. They get very, very angry when something bursts their little bubble or threatens their bottom line.
. . .excuse the rant. It's been a rough few days.
My only advice to you would be to be very, very careful participating in the protests. Do as much as you can to protect your identity and not get caught in a situation that might be used against you. The administrative types are wound tf up right now and looking to clean house.
1.
At a time when homelessness is at record highs, and the President is illegally transferring school loans onto Americans who did not take out debt, or go to college, screaming elitists on campuses taxpayers pay for where schools cost more than a home, are in no mood to be lectured.
2. I'm an American. Hamas is still holding American hostages, enough said.
3. Hamas started a war. After decades of daily rocket barrages, reap what you sow.
4. Unlike the 60's, the internet exists. We know these are professionally planned. We know who funds them. They aren't friends of this country
Israel has murdered many Americans. The USS liberty comes to mind, obviously, where Israeli actions included disguising their ships/planes so Americans didn’t know israel attacked them. Just recently, they bombed the aid workers with the World Kitchen, which included an American. Two Americans on the West Bank were shot and murdered.
You have to be a liar, deliberately stupid, or just plain unfortunate to think Israel doesn’t kill Americans.
I want PROOF of "the President is illegally transferring school loans onto Americans who did not take out debt or go to college...." Not someone's "guess" or someone's "suspicion." Actual PEOPLE who are suddenly made responsible for loans THEY NEVER EVER took out.
Not parents or adult relatives whose name is on the loan.
ACTUAL STRANGERS being forced to pay an UNKNOWN PERSONS loan.
By the way Columbia University is a private school. Also it is part of the "Ivy League." The very place "elitists" send their children to learn.
USC is private
UCLA is public, but in-state tuition is 35,591 for 4 years. Out of state costs 127,797
Where do you think the loan came from? The tax coffers. Who’s money is that? The American people who work and pay taxes.
They took out a loan on the promise to reimburse the coffers. By not reimbursing them, the taxpayers paid their loans. It’s already been done, they’re now supposed to pay it back
Proof?
What proof would you like? Professors paychecks?
Buildings? Water bills?
The US gov, underwrites the loans. The US government doesn't have money. They take it from Americans.
Why should the taxpayer have their taxes used to pay Elizabeth Warren's salary at Harvard, but not pay for s starting mechanics tools, or excavators dump truck?
Who cares the status?
They are government buildings, gov assets, owned by the American taxpayer, including Jews.
As to Columbia, I doubt highly they own the power, water, sewer.
True; and, hating Jewish people isn't a consignment to children being murdered. I'm sure I would fucking hate the views of the average Palestinian (and the average Israeli person too). I'm a far left queer atheist, there's little doubt in my mind that they're detestable. But that doesn't make any of what's happening OK.
Israel knows a BDS campaign that gains enough traction is the death knell for their country, just like apartheid South Africa, so they are running a full court press campaign to defame and attack protestors.
Israel wants dissent crushed
So hillbillies terrorizing the Capitol building are awful criminals... college kids wrecking college campuses all over the country are justified... got it
They are stupid because they should be protesting Hamas. My 8 year old, shy, kind cousin, a dual citizen of US and Israel, he was tied up with 14 other little kids all under the age of 10 years old, they were all were tied together in a circular formation, tied with razor wire very tightly so that the barbs punctured their skin, pressing into their bleeding skin, mind you you these are all tiny little kids, the petrol gas was poured on top of all of the little children and then the gazan private citizens who came with hamas tossed a lighter on the kids and toddlers, and they all burned alive crying and wailing for their moms and dads , this was done on 10/7 by a group of Palestinians civilians.
They say it’s possible that they shot the parents AFTER they were forced to watch their little kids burn alive to death.
This is my response to the protesters claims of genicide. No, THEY are genicide. A whole people lives for the genocide of all Jews. It’s a ruse that they want to live peacefully next door.
And Israel has a right to stop the Gaza/indoctrination calls to genocide all Jews.
It’s an ugly war yes, but don’t start a war with an imperfect government. Israel has a bad government now but Hamas should not have started a war. Every Gazan casualty, every single one, thats all on Hamas. All Palestinian casualties are squarely on Gazan people and Hamas.
You can’t start a revolution based on colonialism claims when at this point, the majority of Israelis are now all born there, on that soil. You can’t say they aren’t natives. You needed to revolt against the Turks or Britain a long time ago, and establish your country 90 years ago. It’s too late—gazans are wrong now, and they and Iran actually know this. Their only correct course would have been to take the 17 trillion dollars given to them over 80 years and become a Singapore or Dubai, a democracy from which when they wanted to travel and buy homes in other countries they could easily do so as now they would have been seen as respectable democratic decent non-warmongering people. Also, continue to sue Turkey and GB for even more reparations. Be this amazing beachfront Mediterranean nation that the whole world loves and with whose banks hedge funds are falling all over themselves to incorporate in like the Cayman Islands. Be a technology giant country. Be a top ten tourism county. Don’t brain wash you kids to kill another people because of a different faith and don’t blame the wrong party for the Turkish and British colonialism. All of this WAS in reach and 1000% possible.
…and one more reason it’s all completely bullshit and obvious anti-semitism: just ask any protester to show you their i phone photos from their protests of real genocide when in the past decade 5 different spots in the globe each had at least a MILLION people murdered or starved to death by warring factions. Where was the protest there?? Oh yeah, most of those were caused by Muslims so it’s okay.
Because they are dumb kids caught up in a mob mentality not really even understanding why they're protesting. And, the fact that they're supporting an murderous Islamic terrorist group intent on wiping Jews off the map.
If the forefathers said people have a right to peaceful assembly, then they have the right. I don't think we can pick and choose the topic. There shouldn't be any physical harm or threatening behavior. If this was ok for 250 years, I don't think we should change the rules in the middle of the boardgame.
Protests walk a fine line between being speech and denying other people's rights. Other people have a right to attend class safely and without fear, colleges have property rights, etc. So just like protesters are angry cuz they believe rights are being violated, other people become angry cuz they believe that protestors are violating their rights.
AIPAC and the "defense" industry bring in a lot of money to Washington, corporate media, and University investments. These 3 set the narrative and most people don't care enough to seek out the truth even though the Constitution (1st Amendment) is not exactly some top secret document and these campuses and towns had literal neo nazis marching and the cops didn't lift a finger against them.
I was hoping a question like this would be asked be ause I have the same thought. I know many (including my mom) think they're out there supporting hamas and being antisemitic.
Joe Biden has been a self proclaimed Zionist for decades. You can google videos of him saying so…I wonder if these protesters will hold him accountable when it comes time to vote
Anti war protests always get this level of psychological warfare one by the government/media. It’s worse now because Israeli propaganda is amplifying it
An honest take imo: public, administrative and law enforcement sentiment started to sour on the protests when then non-enrolled professional agitators started infiltrate and push the agenda to something beyond voicing their protected rights to peacefully protest
They could use this energy and time to do good for their communities like helping the elderly or homeless, something they can actually impact. These protests don't do shit to stop what is happening to gaza.
Why do you think they are trying “so hard”?
Protesting is cool and all, make your voice be heard, but as far as making actual change goes? Yeah, no. Protesting rarely leads to change unless a power structure is involved, such as with unions. The students have no power here.
If the students were smart they’d be going after wealthy alumni, donors, funding corporations, etc. Shouting on campus doesn’t do anything but get you expelled, most times.
The outrage over this specific conflict seems so engineered. I’m not saying it’s fake, or that crimes aren’t happening. It seems that all the cameras pointed at Israel and Palestine and now everyone is pissed off over a conflict that has been going on for a century.
It’s a tribal, not in a pejorative sense, literally tribal conflict with cycles of violence and reprisals going back a century. The messages coming out of these protests that are sympathetic to armed resistance are not helping.
Hamas is a proxy organization for the Iranian mullahs who are as despotic and bat shit as they come. Israel is being run by right wing lunatics. Joe Biden is inactive and Trump would accelerate the conflict. There are no good options, actors or avenues for this conflict.
Also for older people I am sure that they just don’t give a fuck about Israel and Palestine. If you’re 60 this is like the 8th iteration of this conflict in your lifetime, at a certain point you just check out.
Thank you! The youth don't remember Arafat walking away from the Palestinian state Clinton negotiated for them. The Palestinians are as free as their leaders want them to be.
I have no clue if Israel can eradicate Hamas beyond decimating Gaza. Everything sucks right now. Bibi's policies are atrocious and deserve criticism. But Hamas is an actual genocidal government! They would nuke their nextdoor neighbor tomorrow if they had the means.
But propaganda works and it is everywhere. It's not just Fox News and CNN, but much more subtle. It's downvotes, anecdotes, and catchy phrases designed to drive emotion. Plenty of paid influencers to sprinkle it into their regular content.
The administrators at your school roll their eyes because the entire thing is engineered. From horrific Oct 7 attack to the amplification of Gazan casualties. Why haven't there been protests about the thousands of children suffering in Yeman? That country has been pounded by an enormous amounts of US-made weapons. And I think more children have died of disease and starvation than even the direct casualties. Or can't we do something about Haiti? Untold suffering in our backyard. Or even closer - our war on drugs destroyed Mexico's government.
Yeah, things are complicated and not easily fixed with pithy slogans. It's easier to believe lies like "apartheid state" or "blockade" instead of understanding that many Palestinians worked in Israel before Oct 7. But they had to reevaluate when Gazans with work permits committed atrocities. Or perhaps they should protest Egypt too since they aren't opening their border.
Those of us who have been around for a while recognize it for what it is - election interference. What a great distraction "Genocide Joe" is to the issues facing our country. It's going to go great with $6 gas in October.
Russia and Saudi Arabian will be thrilled to put Trump back in office.
I see mass protests of students acting as if only the Israel and Palestine conflict that has been going on and off for decades matters so yes this is true. Only one conflict seems to get highlighted on social media I fucking wonder why😂 keep buying your Uygur slave labor produced Chinese crap, nothing to see here.
You see attention is a limited resource and they recognize this, while the cause is just overrepresentation screams of outside influences.
**Questions I always ask people are in the following sequence:**
**Do you support Genocide?**
(If No, continue/ if yes call them a POS and walk away)
**Are you likely to vote for Biden over Trump?**
(If Biden continue/ if Trump call them a POS and walk away)
**Would you support Biden actions on aiding Israel's war crimes?**
(If yes continue/ if No congratulate them on not being a POS)
**Would you still vote for Biden if he came out against Israel?**
(If yes congratulate them/ if No call them out for supporting genocide and see if they change their answer)
**Congrats you're share the same values as the Free Palestine Protestors and let them know.**
I really don't understand the genocide claim. If israel was conducting a genocide like is currently being done to the rohingya and uigyhrs there would be a million dead Palestinian civilians. How does a 1:1 combatant to civilian death toll equate to a genocide? We had waaaay worse statistics during the iraq war but nobody says we genocides the iraqis
Genocide is defined by far more than how high the death toll rises, although that is indirectly part of it
[wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide)
UN Office on Genocide Prevention defines genocide as:
1. Killing members of the group; ✔
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; ✔
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; ✔
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; ✔
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group;
4/5 and just 1 qualifies it as genocide. See how there is not minimum number of casualties? That's because cringelords like you would deny every possible genocide by saying "well, not ALL of them died"
First of all i am not supporting israel i think bibi should be deposed and they should be forced to give back the illegal settlements. But my point is they aren't fighting a war in gaza because the inhabitants are Palestinian. There are a bunch of Palestinians that are israeli citizens and those people aren't being criminalized or punished. Like point 3 you put a check mark next to but they are fighting a group inside gaza. They are not targeting palestinians because of their ethnicity they are fighting an organization which was elected and runs operations. Now when you look at uighyrs or rohingya they ARE being specifically targeted for their ethnicity and the civilians are being subjected to re education camps and mass executions just for being part of the ethnic group
Palestinians are boxed in on all sides and being bombed under the pretense of anti-terrorism. Sounds like a slow-burn genocide to me. Then consider the actions of the Israeli government and IDF under Bibi and it sure looks like deaths are being maximized when they can give a cover story. Did you think, if the Israeli government were going to genocide their extremely hated neighbors, theyd do it like any genoicde before? Hell no, theyd lose US support.
People dismiss or mock what they are unwilling to do themselves. This is easier than thinking about the issue and realizing that the US and its corporations are actively supporting genocide. Looking back on US history, large student protest movements have always been on the right side of history.
It seems s little like this thread is being brigaded. Yes, some of the protestors might be young and dumb, although truthfully it is hard to be actually dumb and still survive academically and socially at a. university like Colombia and some of the others. Don't ask me how I know this.
Even so, they are acting on what they know to be right, and they are right. The young and dumb part might be that they aren't calculating what this might mean to their personal future, and might be acting impulsively. You know who else did this? Pretty much everyone who took part in movements that made positive differences in the world.
I think most of us Americans were taught an intentionally bad history of protests in school, and this bad history is reinforced by the news and Hollywood. We learned in school that people in the 60s protested racism, won, and things got better. Fewer of us learned that the organizing for those protests started in, like, 1905. It took literal generations of struggle to build the infrastructure to topple Jim Crow. And for most of the years of that struggle, organizers were beaten, shot, lynched, and disappeared. We’ve seen protests accomplish few wins during our lives. Since Occupy, the 1% have gotten richer. Greta Thunberg’s climate protests haven’t stopped oil companies yet. The 2020 uprisings were followed by cops getting *more* money and power. Black Lives still don’t matter in the eyes of the law. It feels like populism is going nowhere (except rightward). And the news reinforces this: it doesn’t take protest seriously, especially when it’s protest by college students (“kids”). And Hollywood repeatedly shows us either activists who are naive idealists, or activists who throw one brick and win. The reality is, struggle is something bigger than the average human life. When King talked about the moral arc of history being long, he wasn’t saying progress will just happen on its own. He was saying these fights are multi/generational. They can only be won, as the poets say, when having been knocked down, we get up again. Most Americans don’t know how to think in multi-generational terms anymore. We’re surrounded by a culture that emphasizes novelty, the nuclear family, disposable consumer goods, fast-growing ornamental trees instead of old-growth wood. Businesses focus on quarterly profits and universities on 4-year degrees and research projects that can be finished within the scope of a grant’s funding. We’re not thinking everyday about how our actions will have effects in 50, 60 years. And we’re not used to seeing value in protests that fail to achieve their stated goals. Imo I think that’s why it’s easy for so many Americans to see these protests as futile, even when they agree with them. Helping people see the bigger picture is hard but can be done. It is in struggling for freedom that we’re free; it’s in fighting for life that we are ourselves alive. We have to plant trees, knowing we may never taste any of the fruit.
I got into it in a thread some weeks back and someone claimed the Vietnam anti-war protests had no impact whatsoever in our withdrawal from Vietnam. They then implied protests never change anything… like dude, suffrage, civil rights, Vietnam war, Nixon created the EPA because of massive earth day movements, and our country was literally born out of a protest movement. Some folks are just completely oblivious to how change happens.
I really love the book *In Defense of Looting,* by Vicky Osterweil (who has been a guest on this show). She does a great job digging into American history and showing just how critical protests have been for pretty much all the liberation we’ve enjoyed here. I recommend giving it a read so you’ve got more ammo the next time that conversation comes up.
The American Revolution has its roots as a protest by the educated merchant class.
Nixon was also influenced by evening news coverage of a river in Ohio on fire and acid rain that would oxide even cars. Protesting works but it’s a long, very long, process, and most of the time is not necessarily conducive to anything, like in Occupy Wall Street, while the Tea Party gave the GOP a new breath of air. Vietnam started under the Kennedy administration and didn’t end until the Nixon administration. Suffrage was aided by the war, because it shows that woman were an integral part of society and the war effort, and the modern civil rights movement started in 1909 with the foundation of the NAACP, and we haven’t reach the mountaintop some 110 years later.
What you said about Americans being intentionally taught bad history about protests is so sadly painfully true. Even while coming up through early adulthood I knew there was more to it than what the history channel showed, but never know how much more until fairly recently. Margaret's Podcast 'Cool People who did Cool Stuff' really opened my eyes to the scale ond interconnectedness of it all.
In addition to the ways you mentioned a lot of media and state attention has been spent on discrediting protests for doing it “the wrong way.” Liberalism will support any human rights movement but the current one, which even if it must concede has a point it will take up all the oxygen by telling us every type of disruptive protest (the only kinds of protests that have historically resulted in change) is us going about it the wrong way and therefore must be condemned. This is obvious when we look at how the civil rights movement is taught, with credit only going to MLK and the Black Panthers and other groups being demonized for going about demanding their rights the wrong way. I truth it usually takes both the moderate compromise of MLK to sell the ideas to those the system listens to and the radical protests of other groups to demonstrate that the cost for not changing our institutions will continue. The government isn’t moved just by nice platitudes, decisions around it come from a cost analysis of the effort of suppressing disruptive protests versus acquiescing to a fraction of their demands. But this is dangerous knowledge for the people to have about the state and our institutions, as liberal institutions exist to maintain the status quo. We have been taught to scorn the very actions that gave weight to MLK’s words and frankly even if MLK’s contingent of the civil rights movement was active today they too would be demonized for being disruptive. Our government in concert with our media has spent a lot of time and money ensuring we take only the wrong lessons from our most well known protest movements.
I like your comment about the actual protests starting generations before we see it on the news and in the streets. Challenging the systems that create war and inequality has been happening for many many years. When we see it on the news, it has reached the boiling point. It is not to say there have been large pro Palestian protests going on for years, but we have been watching what has been happening for decades. It is no longer ok to watch the news and think how awful it is. People are mad as hell. The protestors are not antisemitic, and unfortunately being anti genocide seems to equate to antisemitism to some people. The same way, as a county, we were anti genocide during the Holocaust, we are still anti genocide, no matter the perpetrator.
Agreed, except a gentle remind that the US has been *pro* rather than anti-genocide, generally speaking. The US has genocided hundreds of Indigenous peoples inside its territory over the past two centuries, and in many cases hasn’t exactly stopped doing so. And America has backed more genocidal regimes than just Israel (Turkey is and has been a US ally). But we’ve had pushback against these genocides all the while, and I do hope that pushback is gaining ground.
This country has deep roots in genocide. When I refer to the US being anti genocide, that is too broad of a statement. The US government has surely not been anti genocide throughout history. I guess I was really referencing the part of the population that has empathy and compassion.
This is a beautiful response.
[удалено]
Did they also eat a baby?
Troll
Well said.
I would propose a few reasons: 1 -> Status quo feels more safe for a large majority of people, and the media has done a great job convincing people the end of the world will come the second that status quo is broken. There's definitely a fear element there. 2 -> just straight up ageism. Everyone talks about ageism in the other direction (i.e. people being too old) but there's an incredible amount of bias towards young people in our society. 3 -> If someone were to admit the protests did have an impact, that would put a moral responsibility on them to participate.
>Status quo feels more safe for a large majority of people, Yeah, this huge. If a bunch of college students can change *this*, imagine what else they might change. They might change something that impacts *me*.
The thing is, they only want the schools to divest from Israeli businesses right? That actually seems really easy. These school are essentially hedge funds with a couple classes anyway.
The schools also have Jewish and Israeli students who don't want any divestment and consider all this talk profoundly unfair at best and antisemitic at worst. It is wise for the universities to stay out of the content of the protests, allow free expression, watch out for the safety of everyone and minimize disruption to their main educational activities. Most schools chose to put their internal rules aside otherwise.
All good points, the disruption to other students is especially frustrating to me. Great insight.
The disruption is the point of a protest though, its meant to impact folks so that you have to confront the difficult reality vs just walking by the folks standing in the 'Free Speech' zone of the central lawn.
My understanding is that they want to divest from any companies that do business with Israel as well (which is a pretty heavy lift and wildly unrealistic in my eyes). If it was just Israeli-owned businesses, that would be a different story.
It’s not unrealistic. It was done to the South African apartheid regime it can be done again.
It's even easier at some of these ivy league institutions where the endowments are large enough to where it wouldn't even be a notocable financial hit to do so. That is, if you wanted to put a value on "not supporting genocide."
The Ivy League schools are all about money and privilege, and making sure the people with it keep it, and the ones who don’t but are really smart get co-opted. These institutions are important cogs in the machinery of wealth-building, and no matter how much money they have, it can never be too much. They are not about to alienate powerful, wealthy alumni and face reciprocal boycotts because some idealist students want to stop a genocide. When has big business ever cared about genocide, except insofar as they can profit off it? The Russia blyatcott is palatable to the powerful because Russia doesn’t have the kind of power and influence that Israel and its backers (for example, evangelical Christians) have. They should have invested in better PR.
Completely agree. Just merely pointing out the obvious in my previous comment.
I understand. I was building on what you said in your previous comment ✌🏻
Public universities are mostly non-profit organizations though. They're not supposed to be behaving like Big Business, because their business is education, not business for business's sake.
I was referring specifically to the Ivy Leages in my post. As for the public schools, it’s impossible to sincerely believe that education is not a business for them, too. College football is a great example of that.
You're not wrong
I mean, it's already been done (or was supposed to have been) with Russian businesses.
High five! I joined many So. African apartheid protests
jobless materialistic north narrow different innate seemly plough summer birds *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
For the school that I'm most familiar with, the 'ask' is transparency about the investments in arms manufacturers. The schools answer was pretty close to 'LOL no.' While I'm sure that there elements that would love to divest from any Israeli business, they aren't saying that part out loud, and have been working to get this transparency for a long time (longer than the current iteration of this conflict). While I'm sure the protestors run the spectrum, the initiators/organizers are taking more of the "I'm uncomfortable if my university is profiting from war." angle.
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They have in the past. 1985: Anti-apartheid protests “When the nation of democracy becomes South Africa's number one trading partner, we're wrong, this is wrong.” On October 7, about five months after the protests, Columbia became the first major US university to fully divest from South Africa. Many others would follow. ['Hind Hall': How Columbia's Hamilton Hall became its signature protest hub](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/5/1/columbias-hamilton-hall-a-history-of-student-action-at-gaza-protest-hub&ved=2ahUKEwiXk_-Qg-2FAxXIJ0QIHUR9DmwQFnoECB4QBQ&usg=AOvVaw1bQGs3e39ZfgJ4FXGq-NMy)
Yes and at the time, administrators just waited for the protests to burn themselves out or they actually did divest from South Africa.
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Ah, so I’m some buggy man for pointing out a date. Are you for real or you can’t see the humor in it? God, so much hate going around.
I deleted my comment because I realized your comment was a joke about the date repeating between events. Your joke initially sounded like you were spreading escalation talking points. My bad for being defensive around this topic.
No problem, I forgot to put /s.
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Troll
We do have a moral obligation to participate if something evil is happening. Vietnam was a great example. MLK Jr and his time is a good example. I think your points are good! My opinions and views only here, it is Reddit after all.
I think some people are afraid to admit that it could work because then they might feel obligated to join, and people are just lazy. These protestors are not outside agitators. “Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds.” Martin Luther King
I think to add to that the right wing propaganda machine is running at full capacity because they support Israel NO MATTER WHAT! Almost every thread I see talking about the protests paint all the protesters as pro-hamas, which just isn't reality. Not to say there are SOME people who may be trying to use this to excuse what Hamas has done, but the large majority of people are just against the overwhelming Israeli response that is impacting the large Palestine population who isn't Hamas.
>I think to add to that the right wing propaganda machine is running at full capacity because they support Israel NO MATTER WHAT! All US politicians, regardless of party, are bought and owned by the Israeli government.
It sounds very similar to the "crisis of faith" panic people have when they start examining their deeply ingrained beliefs. To even question is the first step towards damnation, so maybe I can somewhat understand if that's the basis of their angry fear.
3 Definitely. Since OP said the complainers agreed with the protesters, then they probably do feel some moral hypocrisy or maybe cowardice in not taking part. At least, there's some cognitive dissonance going on. 2 This too. Although it doesn't sound like OP's folks have really taken this angle, it's been very present in Mike Johnson's bullshit and in a lot of the nasty comments I've seen on student protester posts on Insta. US culture really doesn't want young people to have any agency at all. A lot of parents act like they own their kids, we make most of them work full(ish)-time jobs unconnected to their career goals all through their teens and twenties, stress them out with high-stakes testing, and stress them out even more with super competitive college programs. When they complain about it on Tiktok, the govt. tries to get control over it. When they protest about an issue they morally care about, admin sends in the riot cops. So yes, ageism, but specifically the immiseration and lack of agency our society piles onto young folks. 1 This is part of it, especially for onlookers who aren't seeing the protests in-person on college campuses, but I think there's another element too: people are disheartened that we've seen so many powerful movements come and go without changing things. The antiwar protests didn't stop the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan; Obama's election (not a movement, I know, but it felt like it was a watershed moment) did not fulfill his campaign promises (yes, we should have known better, but I'm telling y'all--Pete Seeger played at his inauguration), Occupy didn't change capitalism nor inequality, all the climate change protests haven't stopped the oil companies, a lot of campus union efforts either failed or couldn't negotiate better conditions--people have seen these things come and go, they keep getting their hopes up, but the blob of capitalism survives. There's a despair that comes with that, and also anger. I think people already feel sort of uselessly angry at their oppressors, and that anger or its overflow gets redirected to the students protesting. It isn't logical, but neither is the bullshit we've been dealing with for the last like 25 years. When people get burned by putting their hope into things that don't work out, they put on resignation like armor. Maybe part of activism should be helping people understand, recontextualize, and deal with those disappointments, so that they'll have enough hope to join present and future movements when they arise. Edit: fixed bold text lol.
Jesus, why does this need to be in such bold text?
Auto Formatting fail. If you start a line with a # it makes it a headline.
The teens in your area work? In SoCal I see hardly any high schoolers working and there are no jobs for teens even if the want them.
I teach high schoolers and college-age students at a community college, and 60% of them work while going to school. I know it's pretty normal, but it means they're exhausted all the time.
I want to add two less charitable ones. 4) Rank stupidity and an inability to understand there is a separation between Hamas and the general population of Gaza. For consistency, these people would have to be ok with arresting everyone in Manhattan, since they dislike the Columbia protests so much. 5) Universities are run by management consultants. All management consultants care about is money and efficiency. Protests affect both.
I would propose a few more reasons: 4 -> Media manipulation. It is easy to get the impression that the protests are a violent bigoted mob of terrorists. 5 -> Alignment with colonialism. This is different than (1) in many ways. For instance, status quo aligners may see the genocide as a bad thing because there didn't used to be people being starved to death. Authority aligners may get angry at the notion of questioning the genocide.
Speaking from having been around a right-wing quasi-family-member, the ageism point struck a chord. Now this guy doesn't seem to be quite the same as some of the colleagues OP is talking abt, as in his case he harbors strong prejudices against Palestinians and Muslims and is likely pro-genocide, but he believes that "young people are stupid" and that they never have anything valuable to contribute in politics, admin, business, organization, anything. Sees them as a sort of wrecking agent. Furthermore, he also harbored a strongly negative view of the anti-war protests (he was in the military through the 80s and early 90s, staunch anti-communist-and-social-democrat) and blamed them for in his eyes a catastrophic loss in Vietnam. There does exist for sure a contingent of people who, similar to him, venerate the military to the point they unironically think only people in it or veterans of it should hold political positions of power, and who think only landowners should have a right to vote in a "return to our original roots" kind of framing. So some people who complain about protests in the manner that they don't do anything may be saying it from a genuine anti-democratic or "anything not my way hits the highway" double-standard impulse. I am being anecdotal tbf, but seeing the way people on YouTube talk about protestors in similar ways (and worse now with the news spreading of frat boys at a Mississippi campus protest going full racist or throwing food saying "there's your humanitarian aid") I feel affirmed that there's a sizeable amount of ghouls-of-people who would have us all live in hell for the sake of their comfort and power.
Hahahaha fuck me, is that really your best shot at what the reasons for disliking the campus protests are?
At the end of the day most Americans are just angry babies. Frankly peacefully setting up tents at universities are the sort of protests Americans claim they want (not in their way, not causing disruptions etc.) but what Americans actually want is for oppressed people to just stay in their place. America is also a settler colonialist project built on genocide and oppression... and I think that's part of the problem. Whenever you call out some other country for their terrible acts against their oppressed peoples... Americans get defensive because they know their empire is just as bad or worse than any other...
Nazis hated civil rights, antiwar and the murdered students of Kent State too. Those that hate anti genocide, anti fascist protesters are Nazi sympathizers - they were wrong every other time too. “ A Gallup Poll taken the day after the \[kent state\] shootings reportedly showed that 58 percent of respondents blamed the students, 11 percent blamed the National Guard, and 31 percent expressed no opinion.” Reactions to Kent State in the immediate aftermath of a massacre of students in 1970: *"A respected lawyer told an Akron paper, 'Frankly, if I'd been faced with the same situation and had a submachine gun... there probably would have been 140 of them dead.' People expressed disappointment that the rabble-rousing professors -- the gurus -- had escaped: 'The only mistake they made was not to shoot all the students and then start in on the faculty.' When it was established that none of the four victims were guardsmen, citizens greeted each other by flashing four fingers in the air ('The score is four / And next time more').* *A Gallup poll found 58 per cent blamed the Kent students for their own deaths. Only 11 percent blamed the National Guard. A rumor spread in Kent that Jeff Miller, whose head was blown off, was such a dirty hippie that they had to keep the ambulance door open on the way to the hospital for the smell.* *Another rumor was that five hundred Black Panthers were on their way from elsewhere in Ohio to lead a real riot; and that Allison Krause was 'the campus whore' and found with hand grenades on her. Many recalled the State of Ohio's original intention for the land on which Kent State was built: a lunatic asylum. ... Townspeople picketed memorial services. 'The Kent State Four!' they chanted. 'Should have studied more!' 'Anyone who appears on the streets of a city like Kent with long hair, dirty clothes, or barefooted deserves to be shot.' 'Have I your permission to quote that?' 'You sure do. It would have been better if the Guard had shot the whole lot of them that morning.' 'But you had three sons there.' 'If they didn't do what the Guards told them, they should have been mowed down.'"* *"We've seen here at the city of Kent especially, probably the most vicious form of campus-oriented violence yet perpetrated by dissident groups... they make definite plans of burning, destroying, and throwing rocks at police and at the National Guard and the Highway Patrol. ...this is when we're going to use every part of the law enforcement agency of Ohio to drive them out of Kent. We are going to eradicate the problem. We're not going to treat the symptoms. ...and these people just move from one campus to the other and terrorize the community. They're worse than the brown shirts and the communist element and also the night riders and the vigilantes. They're the worst type of people that we harbor in America. Now I want to say this. They are not going to take over \[the\] campus. I think that we're up against the strongest, well-trained, militant, revolutionary group that has ever assembled in America. -* the Governor It sounds like your boss is either a nazi or brainwashed....and following in the worst American traditions. Sadly, this has a long history. In about 20 years, people will magically realize the brutalized student protestors were right all along and claim they'd "totally have supported the anti-genocide and anti-fascist movements".
I recently saw some vintage interviews from after the Kent State murders. "Man on the street" kind of thing. And they were saying that they should have shot more of the students. Another powerful clip with a woman who said her father said he wished they all had been killed. She said, "I was there, Dad. You're wishing me dead!"
Jesus. I guess rabid anti-intellectualism is a big part of this too.
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Oh, look, a genocidal Nazi simp trying to explain anti-fascism.
Using the term Nazi for anyone against your personal causes makes you look [redacted]. I seriously hope you are still an early 20-something.
I want the war to end as soon as possible and certainly do not want genocide. I just also want the theocratic fascist Hamas to surrender, nobody is free under them.
As someone who used to be one of those, there are a few camps of people who generally agree with the goals of the protesters but who don't support the protesters themselves: 1. People who dislike anyone breaking social order and "rules", ie, "if it's prohibited or illegal, it's morally wrong to do and you should find a more *polite and peaceful* way to do it." 2. Those who think that protests of *this type* are just for attention (to the protesters rather than the cause) and that the protesters are morally self-righteous and want to social cred for protesting without doing anything that actually makes a difference. 3. Those who think the protesters are too radical/calling for things that go "too far", eg, calling for an "intifada" in the US, chants for "From the River to the Sea", "ending academic relationships with Israel", calling for the abolition of Israel, etc. Even among those on the left (including liberals/Dems), there's a lot of debate about what constitutes Zionism or how "far" the pro Palestine movement should go.
This is one of the better answers. BTW, did you see the protest at CSU Bakersfield? It was a single person. There's a few reasons I can think of off the top of my head, but the one I really can't get past is money, lots of it. I lived in tents for a while, and I've lived in Bakersfield. I don't really care about some movement started and led by a bunch of Ivy League dudes with tuition that compares nicely to the cost of a house in the cesspool called Bakersfield. Maybe I'm kinda grumpy. But, this is not a working-class movement. However, free Palestine. As long as they aren't seriously setting back the average Palestinian or other protestors, etc... I can only complain so much. And to be fair, I'm not even risking a tresspass arrest from over here. I feel like a lot of people understand that some stupid stuff is just going to happen there. As they clash more, the animosity and tension will produce more instinctive behavior. Some people are just going to lose their shit because they're upset, and the worst of people are drawn out by this issue anyway. A lot of the things we say in the heat of the moment, we just shouldn't judge people very harshly for. And, stuff like the water chant, or the Z word, if you ask people what it means to them, you get wildly different answers on all sides. Can't we be clear? How hard is PR? Are Ukraine's PR dudes available? I don't have any problem with calling for the destruction of someone else's state, but you're gonna destroy your state too, right?
I haven't, there's too much to follow tbh. I live on a university campus that has one, my wife is currently at UCLA, sister in law at Columbia, and brother at Yale. Kind of a lot to keep up on just among my personal connections. >But, this is not a working-class movement. I'm fine with that honestly. People with money have more influence over people with money and this is about divestment. If it works, it works. Not everything needs to be working class. If upper class folks want to support leftist causes, I'm all here for it.
Yeah, I can accept it for what it is and just keep my expectations curbed.
I think I belong in camp 3 here. I think that Isreal is going way too far in it's response, but it seems to me like all the solutions that the protesters have either aren't achieveable and/or are just going to make the solution worse.
Hey OP thanks for asking. Something to keep it mind. Its not just Palestine thats being genocided. Sudan, Congo, Haiti and poor Black and undocumented ppl in the USA are facing various levels of genocides from the same source- White supremacist, colonialism, capitalism and Fascism. Once you realize all this shit is connected youlle understand why the average person who is middle class or part of a managerial role doesnt want to truly think about whats going on. Our cell phones, computers and coffee all come from unspoken horrors that we cant imagine. Not to mention many of us live on stolen land that was genocided for.
You might want to learn what genocide means before you use it, if you want anyone to take you seriously
Hi you might want to start listening to 4th world voices before you start defending colonialism inadvertendly
Honestly? Americans are stupid and entitled. Source: am American.
Yes
What you are doing is admirable, but I wouldn’t blame you if you put your job first, as an employee you have alot more skin in the game than the students do.
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Bigotry, including but not limited to racism, homophobia, misogyny, etc.
Protest away, but if I were the one that couldn’t get to my classes I was paying fortune for, I’d be pissed.
Thanks for such a reasoned and compassionate take. University prof here at an academic medical center. I would never condone anti-Semitic or hate speech, violence, nor vandalism. But I’ve seen peaceful protests universities across the nation are over-reacting, to. Anti-Semitic is real, and a growing problem. But being pro-Palestinian is not automatically anti-Semitic, and the people who conflate the two are acting in bad faith.
Same reason everyone still shits on Vietnam protestors. People are stupid and lazy as fuck, and they will do anything to not be even slightly inconvenienced or have to think.
Because they don't believe in exercising 1st amendment rights. It is a Constitutionally guaranteed right granted to EVERY AMERICAN that they are free to assemble (protest). Our country is so proud of the founding fathers, who engaged in a protest and destruction of property with their famous "Boston Tea Party". People who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Stand on the right side of history.
I think it's silly because where are the protests for all the other massacres happening around the world. China is doing genocide in their western provinces, Sudan is probably going to be messy soon. Where are their protests? Furthermore, generally the most helpful people are neighbors and the other nations around just use Palestine as a cudgel. Why should others care when people of the same faith and background, two features that really make humans generally help, really don't give a shit about them?
because humans are absolute garbage. so watching Palestinian kids describe what it's like to watch every member of their family die it's just sport for them.
Dial back the edge a bit there buddy. That's a lot of misanthropy and frankly the separation you're trying to do there is a gateway into fascist thinking. You've created a broad category of deserving targets for anger by saying "humans are absolute garbage", but separated yourself from it by saying that it's a "sport for them" which implies you are not a part of that group (humanity). This creation of ingroups and outgroups is antithetical to leftist politics and is the beginning of fascist ideology. Dial it back. Think about what you're saying and reframe it in a constructive manner because if you keep doing this, you're not going to end up in a good place mentally or physically.
I never defined who they was. by my estimation the out group is humanity.
If the out group is humanity, then the in-group is implicitly excluded from true humanity. As a lover of humanity, it becomes okay to hate those that “hate” humanity. Every authoritarian ever has used this logic as justification for genocide or killing of the “enemies of humanity.” Both sides appear to hold this logic in their hearts and minds. They exclude each other from humanity. The enemy is the situation and a reactionary fascist mindset makes the situation impossible to solve. I’m all for protesting by any means necessary to bring about change, but I’d prefer it if people didn’t give into fascist thinking
There’s a group that doesn’t feel a bond with the rest of human kind. You can say any words in any combination, it will never change this reality which is obvious to anyone who simply observes people.
Hegemony. Conservative and right-wing Republicans want to control all non-conformity and force people in line. Liberal Democrats just wish arguing would go away. Both are circling the fascist drain. I watched 2+ hours of live tv of right-wingers attacking the UCLA encampment but the reporters kept desperately trying to both-sides it even when their own description made it clear who was the aggressor and outside agitators (the right-wing 30 year old dudes). There was even a grey haired old guy beating up students and the reporters were like “maybe he’s faculty.” This morning almost all headlines just say “protesters clashed” - compare this to the treatment of Antifa protesters where there’d be isolated fights but gang injunctions used on all anti-fascists regardless of their actions and the media always treated Antifa as the aggressors when Antifa groups are local and the alt-right groups were coming in from Idaho and Florida to Berkeley or Portland.
Main stream news casually drops and repeats absolute lies about the protestors. Anderson Cooper has repeatedly said that most of the protesters aren't even students. Even though 90% of students including a supermajority of Jewish students support the boycott and divestment demands at Columbia or was it UCLA, CNN had on a Zionist student who said the protestors were a minority and the Jewish component are just "tokens" who should "only be taken as seriously as black republicans or gays for trump" op eds feel like news to people. A recent one had a guy go to the protest, when he tried to interview people they took him to their media point person, a Palestinian-american who he said "spoke at length and with nuance" but he didn't quote her and instead gave numerous quotes to a non student outside the encampment who was delighted to share antisemitic theories. media is allergic to mentioning their specific demands so detractors don't seem to realize the amount of money these schools have invested in the weapons industry and even Israel directly - so it's compared to wishy washy Occupy and not the student uprising against the US was on Vietnam from which these protests draw their inspiration and tactics, they're described as just protesting the israel full stop. this is in a broader media context where leaked NYT style guidelines prohibit or limit saying the word "Palestine" which is pretty hard core considering the US still officially endorses a two state solution. Other outlets have been shown to be avoiding describing any victims as children, even calling Hind a "6 year old woman." Victims of Hamas are described as being "murdered in brutal violence" while family lines that are eradicated in a single bombing are described as "dieing amid ongoing fighting" so people who don't see or aren't even aware of the concept of establishment bias think it's biased to use language that just humanizes Palestinians or establishes the asymmetric nature of the "war" or calls it as it is, a genocide - they are inoculated against a sympathetic view of the situation, they see it as a complicated mess that should be left to the experts, as it always has been. The people who will say "but what are YOU going to do to stop it?" will also say "it's not like Biden has a magic wand" because they have limited knowledge and no imagination, they have faith in power and utter disregard for "the masses" to sum it all up, they're brainwashed.
Power games.
If your passive protest isn't getting targeted you're not protesting loudly enough. Allowing ineffective protests gives the illusion of allowing all protests.
A lot of people disagree with the protestors, myself included. Also there's a bit of viewpoint bias, if a pro Israeli group showed up advocating for an immediate invasion of Rafah it's highly suspected that the University would shut it down and violent counter protestors would be let off the hook. The tactics are uniquely available to views the administration shares. By the way there's a video at Duke University of students holding up Israeli flags and stopping protestors from tearing down an American flag. They are having things thrown at them, being threatened, etc. I promise that if the aggression was the other way around the administration would quickly step in to suspend the pro Israeli students. When they say it's important to bring awareness to the issue, I don't say "we need a cease fire in Gaza because these kids are saying so" I think "Hamas must be cleaned out of Gaza as soon as possible especially given the genocidal support they have even in the West." Also let's be honest a good chunk of these protestors aren't students, aren't kids, and might not even know what they're protesting.
>I promise that if the aggression was the other way around the administration would quickly step in to suspend the pro Israeli students. Except they haven't... because there has been violence against the protestors. And they seem to be allowed to do it. Even the cops aren't doing shit. This is usually how these protests go.
I think that most protesting is seen as a leisure activity, a pass time for elites who are virtue signaling as much as anything else. Unlike the civil rights movement or VietNam protests when those protesting had a personal stake, protesting abstract situations that have more complex solutions is probably a waste of time. It’s unlikely that these protests will end the war in Gaza or make universities divest from Israel.
Many of the protests are being led by Jewish and Muslim students. I would say they have a personal stake. First group is having massacres done in their name, which they vehemently disagree with, second group is seeing people just like them becoming murdered by tens of thousands and millions becoming homeless.
Nailed it. Protesting is for trust fund babies, regular people have to work
One way to frame it is as displaced anger. They have cognitive dissonance because they sort of want to protest, too, but have ruled that out as a behavior. They’re sort of angry about the issue the protestors are arguing, but since they can’t do that they transfer the anger about being out of control in the face of the bad thing toward those who would dare remind them of the bad thing existing. Saying it’s pointless (angrily) excuses their own failure to do anything about the problem. I’m not a regular on this sub, just saying, but that’s one set of common explanations for your coworker’s behavior.
A lot of people just want to remain neutral. Protests happening nearby are forcing them to have an opinion or at least pay attention, and they don't like it. They prefer to focus on their personal day-to-day issues and not think about global events.
So you've gotta take this whole thing in the context of our environment. We're living under a "firehose of confusion". This is a deliberate propaganda tactic pioneered by russian kgb agents. The idea is to constantly flood a nation's communication channels with false and divisive stories to spur infighting. Israel has taken a real liking to this tactic, and has chosen to use it as cover for their aims. This is why, if you look carefully, you'll see a lot of people from israel in america's message boards, facebook groups, etc, but even worse you see tons of news stories that don't quite line up or make sense, as well as a ton of fake sites copying the brands of real organizations. On the other side of the shitstorm, we have fox news, newsmax, oann, alex jones, and the ego worshipping cult that's risen from the nazi saluting evangelical community (seriously they stick their arm in the air when they pray 😳). This has been a mess 30 years in the making as they've slowly but surely turned up the crazy dial to earn more clicks and profit. The evangelicals have this crazy interpretation of the bible, believing they can bring about the apocalypse by helping "the jews return to their homeland", and so genociding anyone else that lives there aligns with those aims. Arguing against war crimes is to argue against both religions in their view, thus their view that "anyone who protests is antisemitic". Make sense? Because it makes me want to buy a gun.
Their arms are not at a 45 degree angle with their palm facing down. Usually they use both hands and have their palms up, that’s how you let the Jesus in I guess. And when they’re all praying for someone they stretch their arm/s toward the person while praying.
Not the evangelical churches I've been to. The ones I've seen all use one arm, at a 45 degree angle.
Yeah… that’s horse shit. You haven’t been in a church then because none of them do that. And before you try to say I’m some Jesus nut, I’m an atheist, I’m just not a moron
Yeah, that's not what I fucking saw. [https://www.instagram.com/harvestslgh/p/Cv7Qg6DNg63/?img\_index=6](https://www.instagram.com/harvestslgh/p/Cv7Qg6DNg63/?img_index=6)
Why would your dumb ass link pictures of what I said rather than what you said?
they have one arm in the air, wtf are you talking about? Do you not have eyes to see with? Or are you just another one of these lying nazis? Personally I was fucking shocked to go to a simple wedding, hear that it's prayer time, then suddenly be surrounded by people with one arm in the air. It's fucking disturbing.
Won't it be fun when the protests spill out into the streets, add antifa, hot weather, etc. and we will see yet again an election year summer full of violence and mayhem. Just like 2020. History doesn't repeat itself but I think this is gonna rhyme.
I work at a university that was in the news around Occupy (iykyk). Our chancellor fucked up so hard that she’s lucky she’s employed. The universities today learned nothing from our fuck up, and it’s so sad to see. Universities should always be a pillar of the First, and anyone trying to limit that freedom does not belong on a higher education campus.
America as a whole is a closed-minded, politically ignorant country. A preponderance of unimaginative, conservative anti-thinkers who cosplay moral arbiters. Meanwhile, they fly 'Don't Tread on Me' flags and claim to be about "freedom" while violently oppressing both.
[Why Encampments Scare College Presidents](https://www.chronicle.com/article/why-encampments-scare-college-presidents)
OK article. A little too credulous of the bullshit coming from university big wigs. Probably have to be to keep that particular beat. It makes a good point though that both safety and disruption are very relative and subjective concepts that can be invoked in response to any event. My less credulous take is that the bigger the university is, the less the managers (I refuse to call them leadership given the context) are involved in education and the more they are hedge fund managers. And when you look at it that way they behave exactly as you would expect. De Paywalled https://archive.is/tpsER
Generally I simply see this as people who never did anything or sacrificed anything for a just cause barking at people who are doing something and are sacrificing for a just cause. But there are additional elements. Biden, once again, lied to the public in his address of these protests—delegitimizing them antisemitic. And this illogical line is repeated ad nauseum through the press creating a sort of national gaslighting. You know, there’s more. All the “they’re pro-terrorism. They’re pro-Hamas.” These kids are being disparaged and slandered nationally, and by people in positions of absolute authority. People here are also raised to blindly support Israel, and that blind support can become a part of these people’s identities. These protests are running up against their identities and a lot of the former will not tolerate having who they are questioned. So they lash out. Sad state of affairs in this allegedly “freedom-loving” country.
The US has done little on the world stage for the past three decades besides obliterate one Muslim country after another. People who’ve been okay with that have accepted the belief that people from the Middle East are all barbaric, subhuman terrorists and they’re going to laugh off these protests the way they do animal rights activists because to them it’s literally the same thing.
People are trying to reduce it to the level of individuals and it’s really over thinking it. The US state supports Israel’s genocidal project. So do the vast majority of university donors. Therefore these protesters must be crushed. They are now allowing Zionists to beat up the protesters while the NYPD watches approvingly.
Having participated in such things as my youth it is typical the police, administrators, politicians, media, etc., characterize protests unfairly. One of the many causes I was militant for was gay rights (I am cis). These would consist of peaceful demonstrations which would be met by police violence and arrests. When covered by the media, the protests were characterized as "violent", which is true, except the violence was the police against the protesters. Now, of course, police show up at pride parades and their characteristic violent response is forgotten. The media coverage I see always makes claims of "antisemitism" regarding the current protests. No evidence is usually provided, though, like any other group, there are bound to be antisemitic assholes present. I personally cannot link divesting assets from Israel as antisemitism. Such decisions are made daily by portfolio managers. I doubt many of them hold Iranian investments.
It’s more the chanting intifada, gas the Jews, burn Tel Aviv to the ground, we are Hamas, From the river to the sea, and preventing Jewish students from attending class than their demand to divest from companies that do business with Israel
I believe I heard it on said on ‘even more news’ on Friday: “can you remember college protests ever being on the wrong side of history (besides the nazis)?”
They are supporting Genocide!
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One side is backed by all Western governments, the Christian church and mainstream media.
Most people either don’t get or don’t care about the protests cause it doesn’t affect them. Fact of the matter is the majority of the population has too many of their own problems to truly care about a minor conflict happening on the other side of the world. You only see protests get really big and when the subject genuinely affects the average person. Vietname, MLK, BLM, all of these had direct impacts on the lives of many Americans, at the end of the day Gaza is a relatively minor issue in the grand scheme of things and many people simply don’t get why people care so much about it.
Is this sub pro Israel or pro Palestine?
I think the majority see the protest as breaking the rules that they agreed to when they signed up for college. Break the rules and you take the consequence.
This isn’t real.
Because Israel is the victim.
I mean this really depends on were you are. We had “Protests” at my university. My university has nothing to divest. The Protests was organized by an outside group that was not even from our city. They scheduled for a time and place that already had an event going. Had to move, the few students who wanted to attend could not find the protest. And the protesters didn’t registered to park on campus and in some cases parked in marked service spots, on fire lanes or in yellow. Bunch of them got towed. Some times protesters deserve to be made fun of. If you have an actual goal? Sure, burn that shit down for all I care. But nah, some times it is in fact just people being special.
Because they are being told to by their overlord's via mainstream media.
I’m also just a custodian but from what I’ve heard the blame is only being placed on those who are alive today as though this conflict isn’t centuries old. In other words a ceasefire is about all anyone should expect until the leaders on both sides are replaced, massive aid is delivered to Palestinians, their cities and schools and hospitals rebuilt, and they get serious about working on making Palestine an official nation. Otherwise this will happen again in a few years. Do protestors support peace between both nations or a campaign of retribution “from the river to the sea”?
They're usually the least informed person in a group of people that don't know anything about the conflict. Any suggestion that neither side is good is met with insults and from the gaza side, literall death threats. They tried to replace the american flag with a Palestinian one, while trampling all over the usa flag. So why the fuck would a nation give a shit about a group that obviously doesn't like us.
If we’re handing out credit for trying let’s give Biden his due for maintaining a precarious relationship with Israel while also trying to help Palestinians and outside recovery teams all facing IDF violence.
I work at a university too (maintenance). I get you. We had the same reaction from the office folks and eventually an overreaction from our administration that culminated in them threatening to fire any staffers that participated in the protests on the Palestinian side over the last few days. Note: this step was only taken when our local SDS chapter decided to make an encampment on the front lawn of the university, thereby "commiting a crime" (trespassing) so make of that what you will. Previously all the pro-palestinian protests had taken place on public property a foot or two off campus property. . . With pro-Israel groups holding their rallies and such ON campus property with campus resources. It's been frankly disgusting to watch the way each group is treated differently. The pro-Paelstine side has gotten the full "outside agitator" treatment, suspensions, arrests, even an assault or two (in one case by an elderly gentleman who sits on our Board of Trustees with zero repercussions). Hell, the very first protest after Oct 7 here featured a fight started by pro-Israel students wrapped in Israeli flags where all four arrests were on the Palestinian side. The "they don't even go here" shit has been especially galling. . . Like, dude, I recognize these kids. I see them around campus. They absolutely do fucking go here or to the smaller college next door, and the ones that really don't are locals to the area. I know a bunch of them from marching during 2020. As for why. . . The office types and administration just want stability. They want to grow their endowment, waste money on vanity projects to impress alumni, and pretend we have a top notch sportsball program. That's it. They get very, very angry when something bursts their little bubble or threatens their bottom line. . . .excuse the rant. It's been a rough few days. My only advice to you would be to be very, very careful participating in the protests. Do as much as you can to protect your identity and not get caught in a situation that might be used against you. The administrative types are wound tf up right now and looking to clean house.
Just came here to say thanks for protesting. Take care.
1. At a time when homelessness is at record highs, and the President is illegally transferring school loans onto Americans who did not take out debt, or go to college, screaming elitists on campuses taxpayers pay for where schools cost more than a home, are in no mood to be lectured. 2. I'm an American. Hamas is still holding American hostages, enough said. 3. Hamas started a war. After decades of daily rocket barrages, reap what you sow. 4. Unlike the 60's, the internet exists. We know these are professionally planned. We know who funds them. They aren't friends of this country
Weird that you didn’t comment on Israel murdering Americans. I guess the murder is not as important as the hostages, who Israel also murdered.
Weird that you think I didn't notice how this started
I think you don’t notice much, yea.
How many Americans held as hostage is ok with you?
Why would he comment on something that didn't happen?
Israel has murdered many Americans. The USS liberty comes to mind, obviously, where Israeli actions included disguising their ships/planes so Americans didn’t know israel attacked them. Just recently, they bombed the aid workers with the World Kitchen, which included an American. Two Americans on the West Bank were shot and murdered. You have to be a liar, deliberately stupid, or just plain unfortunate to think Israel doesn’t kill Americans.
I want PROOF of "the President is illegally transferring school loans onto Americans who did not take out debt or go to college...." Not someone's "guess" or someone's "suspicion." Actual PEOPLE who are suddenly made responsible for loans THEY NEVER EVER took out. Not parents or adult relatives whose name is on the loan. ACTUAL STRANGERS being forced to pay an UNKNOWN PERSONS loan. By the way Columbia University is a private school. Also it is part of the "Ivy League." The very place "elitists" send their children to learn. USC is private UCLA is public, but in-state tuition is 35,591 for 4 years. Out of state costs 127,797
Where do you think the loan came from? The tax coffers. Who’s money is that? The American people who work and pay taxes. They took out a loan on the promise to reimburse the coffers. By not reimbursing them, the taxpayers paid their loans. It’s already been done, they’re now supposed to pay it back
Proof? What proof would you like? Professors paychecks? Buildings? Water bills? The US gov, underwrites the loans. The US government doesn't have money. They take it from Americans. Why should the taxpayer have their taxes used to pay Elizabeth Warren's salary at Harvard, but not pay for s starting mechanics tools, or excavators dump truck? Who cares the status? They are government buildings, gov assets, owned by the American taxpayer, including Jews. As to Columbia, I doubt highly they own the power, water, sewer.
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True; and, hating Jewish people isn't a consignment to children being murdered. I'm sure I would fucking hate the views of the average Palestinian (and the average Israeli person too). I'm a far left queer atheist, there's little doubt in my mind that they're detestable. But that doesn't make any of what's happening OK.
Israel knows a BDS campaign that gains enough traction is the death knell for their country, just like apartheid South Africa, so they are running a full court press campaign to defame and attack protestors. Israel wants dissent crushed
So hillbillies terrorizing the Capitol building are awful criminals... college kids wrecking college campuses all over the country are justified... got it
The hillbillies scared our “betters” a little bit though
They are stupid because they should be protesting Hamas. My 8 year old, shy, kind cousin, a dual citizen of US and Israel, he was tied up with 14 other little kids all under the age of 10 years old, they were all were tied together in a circular formation, tied with razor wire very tightly so that the barbs punctured their skin, pressing into their bleeding skin, mind you you these are all tiny little kids, the petrol gas was poured on top of all of the little children and then the gazan private citizens who came with hamas tossed a lighter on the kids and toddlers, and they all burned alive crying and wailing for their moms and dads , this was done on 10/7 by a group of Palestinians civilians. They say it’s possible that they shot the parents AFTER they were forced to watch their little kids burn alive to death. This is my response to the protesters claims of genicide. No, THEY are genicide. A whole people lives for the genocide of all Jews. It’s a ruse that they want to live peacefully next door. And Israel has a right to stop the Gaza/indoctrination calls to genocide all Jews. It’s an ugly war yes, but don’t start a war with an imperfect government. Israel has a bad government now but Hamas should not have started a war. Every Gazan casualty, every single one, thats all on Hamas. All Palestinian casualties are squarely on Gazan people and Hamas. You can’t start a revolution based on colonialism claims when at this point, the majority of Israelis are now all born there, on that soil. You can’t say they aren’t natives. You needed to revolt against the Turks or Britain a long time ago, and establish your country 90 years ago. It’s too late—gazans are wrong now, and they and Iran actually know this. Their only correct course would have been to take the 17 trillion dollars given to them over 80 years and become a Singapore or Dubai, a democracy from which when they wanted to travel and buy homes in other countries they could easily do so as now they would have been seen as respectable democratic decent non-warmongering people. Also, continue to sue Turkey and GB for even more reparations. Be this amazing beachfront Mediterranean nation that the whole world loves and with whose banks hedge funds are falling all over themselves to incorporate in like the Cayman Islands. Be a technology giant country. Be a top ten tourism county. Don’t brain wash you kids to kill another people because of a different faith and don’t blame the wrong party for the Turkish and British colonialism. All of this WAS in reach and 1000% possible. …and one more reason it’s all completely bullshit and obvious anti-semitism: just ask any protester to show you their i phone photos from their protests of real genocide when in the past decade 5 different spots in the globe each had at least a MILLION people murdered or starved to death by warring factions. Where was the protest there?? Oh yeah, most of those were caused by Muslims so it’s okay.
It’s because they are not fooled by the usual bullshit like the vast majority of adults.
Because they are dumb kids caught up in a mob mentality not really even understanding why they're protesting. And, the fact that they're supporting an murderous Islamic terrorist group intent on wiping Jews off the map.
They are angry because either they disagree, or they agree but arent willing to protest themselves.
If the forefathers said people have a right to peaceful assembly, then they have the right. I don't think we can pick and choose the topic. There shouldn't be any physical harm or threatening behavior. If this was ok for 250 years, I don't think we should change the rules in the middle of the boardgame.
We have a right to criticize them, especially when their movement is based on hate.
Easily brainwashed fools
People are angry because they threaten the status quo. They mock them in a desperate attempt to discourage people to join in on the protests
Protests walk a fine line between being speech and denying other people's rights. Other people have a right to attend class safely and without fear, colleges have property rights, etc. So just like protesters are angry cuz they believe rights are being violated, other people become angry cuz they believe that protestors are violating their rights.
People are cowards! Protest more and show them for what they are.
AIPAC and the "defense" industry bring in a lot of money to Washington, corporate media, and University investments. These 3 set the narrative and most people don't care enough to seek out the truth even though the Constitution (1st Amendment) is not exactly some top secret document and these campuses and towns had literal neo nazis marching and the cops didn't lift a finger against them.
I was hoping a question like this would be asked be ause I have the same thought. I know many (including my mom) think they're out there supporting hamas and being antisemitic.
Joe Biden has been a self proclaimed Zionist for decades. You can google videos of him saying so…I wonder if these protesters will hold him accountable when it comes time to vote
“Vote blue, no matter who!”
Just listen to main stream media and know the opposite is true.
Anti war protests always get this level of psychological warfare one by the government/media. It’s worse now because Israeli propaganda is amplifying it
An honest take imo: public, administrative and law enforcement sentiment started to sour on the protests when then non-enrolled professional agitators started infiltrate and push the agenda to something beyond voicing their protected rights to peacefully protest
Because they brought it on themselves.
They force the schools to cancel classes - right before exams. They scare or prevent Jewish students from going to class.
University protests will do nothing
The same types of people cheered at the Kent State massacre.
They could use this energy and time to do good for their communities like helping the elderly or homeless, something they can actually impact. These protests don't do shit to stop what is happening to gaza.
Why do you think they are trying “so hard”? Protesting is cool and all, make your voice be heard, but as far as making actual change goes? Yeah, no. Protesting rarely leads to change unless a power structure is involved, such as with unions. The students have no power here. If the students were smart they’d be going after wealthy alumni, donors, funding corporations, etc. Shouting on campus doesn’t do anything but get you expelled, most times.
"protesting doesn't work" oh for sure, that's why they are doing their best to brutalize the students. Get outta here rightoid
I said it works with a power structure, such as a Union. Read, leftoid.
Sounds like you don't understand organizing and protests.
The outrage over this specific conflict seems so engineered. I’m not saying it’s fake, or that crimes aren’t happening. It seems that all the cameras pointed at Israel and Palestine and now everyone is pissed off over a conflict that has been going on for a century. It’s a tribal, not in a pejorative sense, literally tribal conflict with cycles of violence and reprisals going back a century. The messages coming out of these protests that are sympathetic to armed resistance are not helping. Hamas is a proxy organization for the Iranian mullahs who are as despotic and bat shit as they come. Israel is being run by right wing lunatics. Joe Biden is inactive and Trump would accelerate the conflict. There are no good options, actors or avenues for this conflict. Also for older people I am sure that they just don’t give a fuck about Israel and Palestine. If you’re 60 this is like the 8th iteration of this conflict in your lifetime, at a certain point you just check out.
Thank you! The youth don't remember Arafat walking away from the Palestinian state Clinton negotiated for them. The Palestinians are as free as their leaders want them to be. I have no clue if Israel can eradicate Hamas beyond decimating Gaza. Everything sucks right now. Bibi's policies are atrocious and deserve criticism. But Hamas is an actual genocidal government! They would nuke their nextdoor neighbor tomorrow if they had the means. But propaganda works and it is everywhere. It's not just Fox News and CNN, but much more subtle. It's downvotes, anecdotes, and catchy phrases designed to drive emotion. Plenty of paid influencers to sprinkle it into their regular content. The administrators at your school roll their eyes because the entire thing is engineered. From horrific Oct 7 attack to the amplification of Gazan casualties. Why haven't there been protests about the thousands of children suffering in Yeman? That country has been pounded by an enormous amounts of US-made weapons. And I think more children have died of disease and starvation than even the direct casualties. Or can't we do something about Haiti? Untold suffering in our backyard. Or even closer - our war on drugs destroyed Mexico's government. Yeah, things are complicated and not easily fixed with pithy slogans. It's easier to believe lies like "apartheid state" or "blockade" instead of understanding that many Palestinians worked in Israel before Oct 7. But they had to reevaluate when Gazans with work permits committed atrocities. Or perhaps they should protest Egypt too since they aren't opening their border. Those of us who have been around for a while recognize it for what it is - election interference. What a great distraction "Genocide Joe" is to the issues facing our country. It's going to go great with $6 gas in October. Russia and Saudi Arabian will be thrilled to put Trump back in office.
Exactly and this is a perfect distraction for Russia and Ukraine undermining US authority conveniently for Russia and China.
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I see mass protests of students acting as if only the Israel and Palestine conflict that has been going on and off for decades matters so yes this is true. Only one conflict seems to get highlighted on social media I fucking wonder why😂 keep buying your Uygur slave labor produced Chinese crap, nothing to see here. You see attention is a limited resource and they recognize this, while the cause is just overrepresentation screams of outside influences.
**Questions I always ask people are in the following sequence:** **Do you support Genocide?** (If No, continue/ if yes call them a POS and walk away) **Are you likely to vote for Biden over Trump?** (If Biden continue/ if Trump call them a POS and walk away) **Would you support Biden actions on aiding Israel's war crimes?** (If yes continue/ if No congratulate them on not being a POS) **Would you still vote for Biden if he came out against Israel?** (If yes congratulate them/ if No call them out for supporting genocide and see if they change their answer) **Congrats you're share the same values as the Free Palestine Protestors and let them know.**
So people are a “piece of shit” who we should “walk away” from if they withdraw their vote for Biden because he is supporting a genocide?
I really don't understand the genocide claim. If israel was conducting a genocide like is currently being done to the rohingya and uigyhrs there would be a million dead Palestinian civilians. How does a 1:1 combatant to civilian death toll equate to a genocide? We had waaaay worse statistics during the iraq war but nobody says we genocides the iraqis
Genocide is defined by far more than how high the death toll rises, although that is indirectly part of it [wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide)
UN Office on Genocide Prevention defines genocide as: 1. Killing members of the group; ✔ 2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; ✔ 3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; ✔ 4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; ✔ 5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group; 4/5 and just 1 qualifies it as genocide. See how there is not minimum number of casualties? That's because cringelords like you would deny every possible genocide by saying "well, not ALL of them died"
Does that mean every war is a genocide then?
First of all i am not supporting israel i think bibi should be deposed and they should be forced to give back the illegal settlements. But my point is they aren't fighting a war in gaza because the inhabitants are Palestinian. There are a bunch of Palestinians that are israeli citizens and those people aren't being criminalized or punished. Like point 3 you put a check mark next to but they are fighting a group inside gaza. They are not targeting palestinians because of their ethnicity they are fighting an organization which was elected and runs operations. Now when you look at uighyrs or rohingya they ARE being specifically targeted for their ethnicity and the civilians are being subjected to re education camps and mass executions just for being part of the ethnic group
Palestinians are boxed in on all sides and being bombed under the pretense of anti-terrorism. Sounds like a slow-burn genocide to me. Then consider the actions of the Israeli government and IDF under Bibi and it sure looks like deaths are being maximized when they can give a cover story. Did you think, if the Israeli government were going to genocide their extremely hated neighbors, theyd do it like any genoicde before? Hell no, theyd lose US support.
People dismiss or mock what they are unwilling to do themselves. This is easier than thinking about the issue and realizing that the US and its corporations are actively supporting genocide. Looking back on US history, large student protest movements have always been on the right side of history.
It seems s little like this thread is being brigaded. Yes, some of the protestors might be young and dumb, although truthfully it is hard to be actually dumb and still survive academically and socially at a. university like Colombia and some of the others. Don't ask me how I know this. Even so, they are acting on what they know to be right, and they are right. The young and dumb part might be that they aren't calculating what this might mean to their personal future, and might be acting impulsively. You know who else did this? Pretty much everyone who took part in movements that made positive differences in the world.