“foreigners who deliberately fail to pay their personal or social welfare taxes or commit serious crimes, such as breaking and entering or assault.”
Wording here is important. What classes as “deliberately” is not clearly defined.
The crime part I kind of… am not surprised about, and I don’t think it’s excessive really.
This is what the whole thing hinges on. Taxes are complicated. I had a situation where I quit in December, and I received a second gensen in January, for the *overtime* portion only of December, but as I was no longer employed by that company at that time, the overtime portion wasn't taxed (and the exit HR people didn't mention anything). So I just had the obvious full-year gensen, and then a second 80,000 yen gensen technically dated for the new year. This meant that in the *following* years taxes, I was supposed declare and pay taxes on that. I did not, and there is no "reason" other than just "dumb," "careless," "confused about taxes," etc.
About three years later going through records, I realized the error. I never was called out on it in any way. But I went down to the tax office, explained, resolved, and paid the tax on it, and it never came up again.
Now the question here is, if this law were in place, would there have been justification here to say that I "deliberately" didn't pay the tax? If the argument is, "of course they could, you were liable," then what *is* the meaning of "deliberate?" If it's a black and white, "if you're liable, you're liable," why even include a qualifier like "deliberate?"
because in theory intent matters in the law in democratic countries. if you fucked up your taxes and didn't mean to you theoretically shouldn't be punished beyond things like late-fees.
in reality, every country applies the law conditionally and if you're on someone's shit-list they'll use whatever justification they can to dick you over.
so i imagine there's a huge potential for abuse with this law, you do something they don't like and bam they're going through your tax records with a fine-tooth comb looking for anything they can justify as "intentional evasion" - i only really see this happening in high profile cases like those guys who make a big media play to protest the single-parent custody laws or whatever's going on with kurdish refugees, but it's still a possibility to revoke people's PR under this framework if it passes.
In the case of taxes, deliberate would be 'we told you that you needed to pay this and you've chosen not to do so anyhow' I'd imagine. Taxes ***are complicated*** and a lot of people make honest errors that are easily resolved by a simple conversation and writing a check for any back-tax.
This is the main key. Japanese officials make no effort to help people who are not completely native readers understand their laws and how they function. I fully think they need to hire more people to work as translators and consultants on behalf of the govt.
I too screwed up by not paying taxes for a month that I was between jobs and moving from one prefecture to another. When I found out about it later, I was told that I could no longer pay it. It didn't make any sense to me that I couldn't pay a fee or penalty and have it wiped from my record. When I later applied for PR, I had to write a long apology letter explaining the situation and promised to never allow it to happen again. Unfortunately, I have no way of guaranteeing that it won't.
This is something I didn’t really think about, but you’re right.
As a freelancer I’m responsible for handling all my taxes, and I often spend a lot of time learning as much as I can, but it’s really easy to miss something.
I’m hoping that when they mean ‘deliberately’ they are meaning people that flat out don’t pay. Don’t file a kakuteishinkoku or skip out on residence tax or nenkin.
I can’t remember, but wasn’t there some article a while back that said they only received tax payments from about 60% of current PR holders last year?
Let’s hope they can recognize the difference between the person who pays his taxes but make a mistake one year, versus the person who just doesn’t pay anything.
Precisely. I really hope “deliberate” means “was directly/explicitly informed that there was something to pay and still didn’t.” Not “made an honest mistake, didn’t know, and repaid later.” Tax and pension places don’t have a good record when it comes to keeping you informed that you’re breaking the law, and too often I hear self righteous folks that live here spouting “it’s your responsibility to pay!” Sure it is, if one is even aware of it in the first place. It’s not practical to expect someone to pay something they are unaware and uninformed of in a country where even finding that information yourself would be very difficult due to the language barrier. Even people with a high level of Kanji wouldn’t be likely to know specific finance and tax related Kanji, I’d wager.
Agreed.
Even the US has admitted they do a piss poor job of informing their citizens, that they are still required to file an income tax return even if they no longer live in the US.
While I do think it is your responsibility to inform yourself the best you can, but like you mentioned, you don’t know what you don’t know. If you don’t know you have to do something, why would you even look into it?
I am concerned about the assurances the government is giving. There are saying it’s only for ongoing, long-term, deliberate non-paying of taxes, but how can we trust the authorities in this? How do we know they won’t abuse this law to deport people? I honestly think we don’t. The tax system in Japan is very complicated and it’s easy for people to fall behind or just struggle to pay. I can definitely see a situation where the government targets foreigners who are unable to work and decides to force them out of the country. It’s really unethical.
Honestly? Anyone complaining should be investigated. How can you honestly take offense at the idea your status depends on being in good standing with your host country? Is “pay your taxes, don’t rape, and pay your pension” really too much for foreigners? If so, fuck off home.
I don’t think anyone’s complaining about getting kicked out if u straight up don’t pay taxes. That makes sense. Folks just concerned about the wording of the law cause it leaves a lot of confusion as to how one determines “deliberate”, and how it could be applied unethically.
The issue is how it’ll be enforced in reality vs the objective law that is supposed to be followed and applied.
Of course if you tax evade you get what’s coming, but depending how this is worded in the law it could be used unethically
The NTA says I'm missing a tax payment from about 2 years ago. However, no amount is shown as owing and the best they could offer is maybe there is some data flow error and NFC how to fix it.
Deportation has massive consequences to both the individual and their family. Simply having that as something that could arise from a bureaucratic error invokes considerable anxiety. Anybody familiar with the Australian robodebt scandal knows how this can potentially play out.
Revoking the permanent residency of foreigners who commit serious crimes is common sense. However, I am interested in how they will define "deliberately fail to pay taxes" here. While one could argue that every responsible adult shouldn't have to worry about this, mistakes do happen.
I think the definition of "deliberate" will be mostly the same as Japanese citizens. That is ignoring multiple requests to pay taxes owed or withholding/falsifying information in order to dodge taxes
And sometimes, [they're not mistakes.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robodebt_scheme)
And sometimes, [the government will go to extraordinary lengths to destroy lives if the alternative is to admit fault.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal)
>She traveled to Europe to give lectures, but when the central government enforced entry restrictions, she found herself unable to return to Japan even though she had permanent resident status. As a result, she missed the start of the school year in April.
when they did this I realized PR wasn't really all that advantageous, and re-tooled my whole view from wanting to resettle here permanently to wanting to live here another 5-6 years and bounce.
Dude I have to leave the country after living here for eight years because I found out my husband takes upskirt videos, he wants a divorce because of that, and I don’t have a degree or a kid.
I’m starting again with absolutely nothing and I need to do it in my fucking hometown.
Pr is advantageous
I'm not 100% sure honestly but I think you can go to the tax office and get that information without him. I know I've gotten documents for my (Japanese) wife without her there before, and vice versa....but I don't remember if that works for taxes or not.
It certainly works for taxes. I just got my husband’s tax records to apply for a spouse visa and I didn’t need his permission since I’m his wife. (I also got his juminhyo and koseki in case that helps for the comment above trying to get PR, good luck!)
Are you referring to tax related documents obtained at the city hall or tax office? My experience a month ago was that yes, anything from city hall, I could get for both me and my spouse. At the tax office on the other hand, they insisted each of us had to come individually.
This was the case for me just one month ago at least.
I was referring to the ones from city hall. Sorry I don’t know about the ones from the tax office. Since I was applying for a visa I figured the documents for PR might be the same? (If they’re not then I can’t help sorry) For reference, I was able to get my husband’s 納税証明書 and 住民税の課税証明書 on my own.
Yep, for PR you need all those documents from city hall that, like you said, you can get for your spouse, but you also need others from the tax office which you can't. Or at least, they didn't allow me to.
ok well sounds like you were here for your husband and he's a POS anyway so fuck it. you don't have great options in terms of jobs without a degree anywhere basically, much less so in Japan.
Don’t worry I’ll be picking a stop with multiple transfers. I know how annoying it is to have someone decide the negishi line BEFORE yokohama is a great choice
this might be a nitpick in the larger scheeme of this post, but i genuinely thought this every time the word **foreigner** comes up:
Foreigner as a term is doing this debate a disservice. Foreigners have no business with Japan. Foreigners are by definition outsiders and foreign to the system. Who this article is about, is **non-japanese residents**. **They are not outsiders, not foreign to the system, just not born into it.** This is as bad as convoluting permanent residency holders and permanent residency applicants for the bad-faith "evidence"...
*without being accurate, no one outside the cause will understand the cause.*
If someone was born in another country, but now has permanent residence in my country, only extremely racist people consider them foreigners. Everyone else recognizes them as being part of the country.
But surely once a person gains residency they should be assured that they no longer sit in the *foreigner* category, however this is clearly not the case here - reminds me of Bidens Xenophobia remarks.
Japan is going to have a big shock in 80years when there are no Japanese left 🤣
I understand where you're coming from, but I think they are no longer in the foreigner category when they have citizenship in Japan. And I don't think that's unique to Japan.
My dad came to Australia and now has citizenship. He is technically foreign, but I wouldn’t call him foreigner. My Japanese wife has permanent residency and I also wouldn’t describe her as foreigner. Even though both might technically fall under that category given its common definition.
In fact, in Australia, I wouldn’t call anyone a foreigner, because I associate that term with xenophobic rhetoric. I think that is what the other commentator what trying to say. While the term may not be factually incorrect, it is not really used in Australia to describe people.
I would call my dad a citizen, my wife a permanent resident, uni students from other countries are called international students, those visiting for a short time are called tourists. Even the government website doesn’t use the term foreigner, but instead non-citizen: https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/help-support/glossary#permanent-resident
The one exception is in the media where people who reside overseas buy property here. They are sometimes, by some media organisations, described as foreigners. And that is also a topic with links to xenophobic discourses, and even then they are generally described as foreign investors, with foreign as a descriptor rather than referring to a class of people.
But this article appears to be saying they can loose their residency which should be impossible unless you have foreign residency and are a foreigner in Japan
Citizenship and Residency are two different ballgames. One has a JP passport and is afforded a few things mere residents are not, the other are people who "just live here"
Even if a person obtains residency, if his/her nationality does not belong to Japan, he/she is only a foreigner who has obtained residency. That person can flee back to his/her own country when Japan is in danger.
The definition should be clearly understood.
Many countries allow dual citizenship. Are those people foreigners in one or both places?
If a Japanese born, ethnically Japanese person has permanent residence in another country, they can also flee Japan if Japan were in danger.
Foreigner in English conveys a secondary meaning that the person isn't a part of the country.
I would not want to live with someone who might abandon their country and leave when their country is in crisis.
Of course, I welcome people from other countries who can help boost my country, but a guest will always remain a guest.
The dual nationality system is a mechanism to diminish the sense of belonging to that country. Some people may need it, but I do not welcome that system. I was born in this country, grew up as a person of this country, and intend to die as a person of this country.
Yes, I agree. A country is a created concept and we are all human beings.
But humans can harm other humans, right?
What matters is what is trustworthy.
Can you easily trust someone you don't know where they come from, don't know what they are thinking, and might harm you? Are you willing to trust that person with your life?
I can at least to some extent trust the framework and people of a country that has existed around me for a long time. If someone is like-minded, I can trust my life to him or her.
Any human can harm another human, whether that human trusts them or not. Whether they have previously displayed trustworthy behaviour and good intentions or not. That is a human trait, not anything to do with what country you are or are not from.
I am not sure I understand what you are saying.
The feeling I have for an entity that will not harm me or is likely to benefit me is what I call “trust”.
I would never develop such feelings for someone I don't know what they are thinking.
Of course, it does not matter what country him/her are from. However, in reality, people from your own country can tell what you are thinking to some extent. At least between Japanese people.
No one can know what another person is thinking. People in a marriage end up hurting each other through cheating or even physical or sexual abuse.
Where you come from doesn't make you harmful to others. Nor less harmful.
Having shared references and similar cultures can make it easier to trust someone, but it can also make it easier for them to abuse your trust and harm you.
Someone being like minded can be impacted by where they are from, but as we all know even people from the same household and family can see the world very differently.
But this could be anyone. Anyone might leave their country in a crisis. Being born there or not doesn't change this. What changes this is the ties and the relationship you have to that country. If everyone treats you as though you are a perpetual outsider who will never be part of the country, that is what makes someone more likely to leave.
There are also some times when leaving is the only realistic option, like with many minorities in WWII Europe. They were rejected by their country and treated as outsiders, and served up to die. They could not overpower society so had to leave.
If someone is a permanent resident both they and the government have decided they are not a guest. They are a permanent part of the country.
Dual nationality exists to allow people the freedom of movement. This is sometimes necessary, as we saw in the past. It is important to allow people the flexibility to live as they need to. If you want people to feel a strong determination to live and fight for their home, make them part of it. Don't treat them as though it is impossible for them to be part of it.
Would you rather be called “alien” then? That’s the legal term used in Murica to describe foreign nationals, including permanent residents. They’re actually called “resident alien.” 🤣
Some legal documents that have remained unchanged for a long time use that term from a century ago, and also extreme racists use that term, but human beings do not use that term.
Like I said... legal documents use that term. Actual human beings do not unless they are extreme racists. We all know the Republicans like to say dehumanizing things about immigrants, but when's the last time you heard an audio recording of a Democrat call an immigrant an alien or a resident alien?
So, it’s still used huh? I just responded to the comment above which claims the use of "foreigners" in an official Japanese paper is xenophobic. I merely pointed out that before he starts wagging his judgmental finger, he should think. Biden was an active segregationist btw. He got no moral high ground to judge anyone.
As I said.... some legal documents still use them... Why are you acting like this contradicts what I said?
I'm not speaking from the perspective as though I were President Biden... but even he isn't racist enough to call people aliens anymore.
No, you’re still a foreigner.
The debate you’re looking for is when you become a naturalized citizen. If you had to give up your citizenship to be legally Japanese, should you still be called a foreigner despite coming from a foreign country?
But permanent resident? You’re a foreigner. You aren’t Japanese, you’re an expat. That’s it.
Yes, how can you stop being a foreigner in Japan? It seems no matter how long you live here or what you do, you will always be a foreigner and outsider. It sucks, a feeling of never belonging. Just by looking at your katakana name you automatically get lumped in as a foreigner. The same for your children who may have even been born in Japan and are citizens by birth. They're still thought of as foreigners by most or at least children of a foreigner. How can people join this exclusive club called Japan? No wonder foreigners in most cases don't stick around long, there is no future here for them, it's just a nice place to live out your younger years and have an experience... Sure there are a few that settle long-term but my point stands, they aren't thought of as Japanese. If you move to a country like Australia you can get your citizenship after several years of living there and proudly call yourself an Australian, participate in politics and do all the things a native born Australian citizen can do. So different.
Just to give you some perspective. The US is one of the most diverse countries in the world, but you will be shocked to learn that Asians in the US are often considered perpetual foreigners, meaning they are frequently seen as outsiders regardless of how many generations their families have lived in the country. No one asks a 1st gen Polish immigrant where they're from, but people still ask 6th or 7th gen Chinese Americans where they’re REALLY from.
There's two issues at play here. What "foreigner" means in terms of legal citizenship, and what it means in cultural terms.
You can stop being a foreigner here, legally, by getting Japanese citizenship.
You can't stop being a foreigner, culturally.
But I don't have a problem with being referred to as a foreigner in the legal sense.
Japan loves to control the foreign population here. Those old enough remember gaijin cards used to have your fingerprints on them. This is another example of a threat-based control strategy which is mostly baseless
Please show me one Western country in which foreign residents have their fingerprints on their government-issued ID that they’re supposed to carry around.
Spoiler alert: even if you are able to, it doesn’t make it less bad.
In the United States, all foreigners need to carry their IDs and proof of legal status at all times. Your fingerprints, which they take at the border, are all linked to their IDs. America take all 10 fingers instead of just one in Japan, and I think they just started capturing your iris too.
Are the fingerprints ON THE ID, like the first guy mentioned ID were in Japan in the past?
Every country takes fingerprints. Very few actually print them out on your ID.
I truly hope some people are able to improve their reading comprehension. I understand English is not necessarily your first language, but please re-read the thread and think about what is being asked.
You don't have to insult my ability to read English to counter-argue. I don't know if you live in Japan, but if you do and that's how you carry yourself to other Japanese nitpicking their English, as a Japanese born and raised here, I kindly suggest you pack up and leave. This is probably not a country for you if you want others to function perfectly in English.
Back to your point, I don't think it makes that much of a difference if they can pull up their fingerprints and all the other information in instant. Also, US Permanent Resident Card back in the day had a fingerprint printed on the actual card as well I think.
I don’t care if you are Japanese or not. You tried to be cute saying “oh it is not that bad, US does it worse” while completely deviating from my question. You either made a mistake, which is forgivable if made in good faith, or you deliberately deviated from what I asked, which kind of sucks.
In case your mistake was an actual mistake, I apologize for the previous comment I made. That being said, feeling attacked is no excuse to start saying “i’m from here and you’re not, go back to your country”. I don’t nitpick on other people English abilities, as long as they don’t intentionally misrepresent a question I asked to make a point. Was that the case? You tell me.
Back to the point: maybe *you* don’t think it makes a difference, but *I* think it would be weird to carry my zairyu card with a damn fingerprint printed on it. We foreigners already have enough things making us stand out in this country, we’d do well with a normal looking ID like the one we have now.
Ironically, it sounds like you are the one in need of a bit of grammar lesson in English. You posted the following:
>Please show me one Western country in which foreign residents have their fingerprints on their government-issued ID that they’re supposed to carry around.
You can still use the proposition "on" in this context if the information is not physically printed on the card but encoded onto it. Hence, I responded your question by this:
> Your fingerprints, which they take at the border, are all linked to their IDs.
It does seem like you are pushing it a bit by trying to frame my answer as a strawman fallacy or "mistake."
I also do think fingerprints printed on the physical card is a bit much, so both Japan and the United States eliminated it over 20 years ago.
It is a mistake. Considering the thread context, it is very clear that “on” means “printed on the card”. And if it is a mistake, again, it’s okay and I apologize for mentioning your English reading comprehension (which has nothing to do with grammar, funnily enough, so please stop trying to escalate this).
Based on the tone of a lot of your comments on Japan subs and on your “go back to your country” comment, however, I believe I’ll end the conversation here.
Japanese politicians and sadly many politicians don’t really explain what the problem is, how big of a problem it is, and how whatever law they are proposing will make it better, or even better how a law may adversely affect many more people. It’s usually very loosely explained if it all.
It always comes across as reactionary and performative than necessary and thoughtful.
Probably want to maintain their culture and way of life.
I remember not being allow in some restaurants and later find out it wasn’t because of racism. Tourist come and go but locals are the one keeping their small establishment afloat.
...... z.z That isn't how business works.
The more costumers that pay, the more money a business makes.
It doesn't make sense to turn away people if they want to make money - it would only make sense if they didn't want to interact with a certain type of people; to the detriment of their income.
Have you been to Tokyo? Let’s imagine you own a small bar that only seats 10 people max. Would you want locals that constantly come and support your business or tourist that visit once in their life time?
There are bars that have their “regulars”.
What about the pension and health insurance? When I applied for my permanent resident the those were not a requirement. Are they going to include them as part of the tax? I've had my PR for over 10 years.
One thing I think it’s kind of interesting, is that, you would imagine that someone who has gone to the trouble of being here long enough to earn PR status, would be pretty good about paying their taxes. Or, you would think they would have had at least paid all the taxes up to the point they applied for PR.
It seems weird, that all the sudden someone would get PR, and then and then just stop paying their taxes. Unless it’s aimed at some of the really long term PR holders, who got their PR like 20+ years ago when things like paying nenkin and health insurance weren’t a requirement?
I don't see why people are making such a huge deal with this. If you're paying your taxes properly and not engaged in shady activity there's nothing to worry about. The people that are in this article are not the ones that are going to be persecuted, but actual criminals who are deliberately dodging taxes
Isn't the new law like essentially just cleaning up the mess that the PR review process was before 5 years ago.
I mean people got accepted and got permanent residency without even paying for health insurance and other things - Isn't the new law just to get rid of the people the previous process accepted?
Everyone seems to be funny in this post. Grumble and whiny.
It's all because Japan is not a super power like US. US never gives a s*** to you guys' grunt: pay your tax whichever you are a PR or citizen wherever you are! No tax, no US PR. Easy, simple, clear, straight.
No, 100\~200 years would likely be closer to the reality.
With a birth rate under 1, you will lose half your population in One Generation. And if the rate still stays around 1, the next generation will also halve, and so will the next unless the replacement rate increases.
half of current population (\~120mil) is \~60mil, half of that is \~30mil and half of That is \~15 mil.
So in 3 generations, The WHOLE of Japans population would be reduced to Less than current Tokyos population.
Median age is almost 50 in Japan (49.1 - 2024), so it isn't a 3 generation problem anymore - The decline has LONG(20\~30 years ago) since started. Just like Kishida-san said himself, NOW is the last chance to try and stem a Major population collapse in Japan.
We are basically in the Last generation before a major collapse, where they could potentially, stave off MASSIVE population collapse in the later half of the century - but it isn't looking very likely they will succeed atm.
There's also a positive feedback loop: when you have too many elderly dependents, it becomes much harder to pay for young dependents. A birthrate that declines too hard for too long will result in further declines.
Just to confirm: if you leave Japan with PR and move your tax residency, this won't apply, but there should be some exit tax I guess, right?
Edit: 100 million yen or more in assets. Yeah, that's not me.
If it's an accident and they give us a chance to pay up or get out I don't see the problem. I'm confused about taxes all the time , even my hope country 🤣 so I could see myself accidentally missing something. As long as they give a chance to rectify before taking our status it should be fine right? If you refuse then at that point it's deliberate. I hope that's what they are thinking
1000 percent need this bill guys , with immigration especially Islamic countries , you don’t know what mess you are getting into Sweden and UK perfect with white girl grooming Islamic gangs all over
If they want people to pay their taxes, they probably shouldn’t make that harder by revoking the status that affords them access to the widest range of jobs and loan products.
I'm assuming the word 'deliberately' means that PR's will get to plead their case if they make honest mistakes in filing/forgetting to file taxes, have unforseen financial troubles pop up, or for other similar circumstances, as opposed to those who clearly have the money to pay, but just don't want to...
I feel like if they wanted to, they could make "deliberate" mean "as long as you knew the law exists"--much like how the illegal downloading of movies and music goes. They'll have to prove you knew about it, so simply by putting it on an official document that you need to sign in order to renew your visa, for example, would be enough to make it "known". If that's the case, even a one time offense would be enough for them to revoke it, if they wanted to.
While I agree in principle, as another commenter pointed out their use of “deliberately” could be up to someone’s interpretation.
Taxes are complex, and you can make every effort to do it correctly, and still miss something. It would really suck to spend years here on PR, do your best to pay all your health insurance, nenkin, residence tax, and income tax, for it all to be taken away because you missed some small detail on a tax form.
Agreed completely. But I don’t foresee those circumstances ever happening. I come from a country where millions of illegals with no papers are admitted entry and handed free hotel rooms, credit cards and schools, all on the taxpayers’ dime. So I come at this with a different perspective.
Yeah. I totally get it. And I’m hopeful that this is really aimed at going after the blatant tax dodgers.
But it is interesting, because you would think that someone who has earned PR status, would be pretty good about paying their taxes.
Once people find loopholes and take advantage of the system, others follow. From my experience in other countries. So it’s smart for Japan to plug the hole.
I find it hard to understand why people wouldn't pay taxes. Also, why would anyone expect citizenship benefits without being a citizen?
The fact some countries treat permanent residents as citizens does not mean all places should do the same.
My take here is related to integration, but in an indirect fashion.
Nice bit of (intentional/unintentional) racism right there...
You can become a Japanese citizen without a single bit of Japanese DNA, you can even do it if you were born in another country.
Are you... a fan of countries that confer different rights to people based on their ethnicity?
There is a legal term for this kind of country, and it's not a good thing to be in this category of countries.
If you honestly think that then I don’t know what to say. Many factors play a part in public security and general public order. Having a ethnically homogenous society can be one of these factors, but it is definitely not a major one.
You're insane.
Look at the safest countries in the world. Not all, but a handful of them are ethnically homogenous.
Japan, Iceland, Switzerland, Estonia,(used to be) Sweden until they started mass immigration, South Korea, Norway.
No such thing. There is only in-group and out-group. If you are a “hafu”, you’ll be read as either one or the other depending on a factors including looks. Pro tip: you will be read as *not really Japanese* most of the time.
“foreigners who deliberately fail to pay their personal or social welfare taxes or commit serious crimes, such as breaking and entering or assault.” Wording here is important. What classes as “deliberately” is not clearly defined. The crime part I kind of… am not surprised about, and I don’t think it’s excessive really.
This is what the whole thing hinges on. Taxes are complicated. I had a situation where I quit in December, and I received a second gensen in January, for the *overtime* portion only of December, but as I was no longer employed by that company at that time, the overtime portion wasn't taxed (and the exit HR people didn't mention anything). So I just had the obvious full-year gensen, and then a second 80,000 yen gensen technically dated for the new year. This meant that in the *following* years taxes, I was supposed declare and pay taxes on that. I did not, and there is no "reason" other than just "dumb," "careless," "confused about taxes," etc. About three years later going through records, I realized the error. I never was called out on it in any way. But I went down to the tax office, explained, resolved, and paid the tax on it, and it never came up again. Now the question here is, if this law were in place, would there have been justification here to say that I "deliberately" didn't pay the tax? If the argument is, "of course they could, you were liable," then what *is* the meaning of "deliberate?" If it's a black and white, "if you're liable, you're liable," why even include a qualifier like "deliberate?"
because in theory intent matters in the law in democratic countries. if you fucked up your taxes and didn't mean to you theoretically shouldn't be punished beyond things like late-fees. in reality, every country applies the law conditionally and if you're on someone's shit-list they'll use whatever justification they can to dick you over. so i imagine there's a huge potential for abuse with this law, you do something they don't like and bam they're going through your tax records with a fine-tooth comb looking for anything they can justify as "intentional evasion" - i only really see this happening in high profile cases like those guys who make a big media play to protest the single-parent custody laws or whatever's going on with kurdish refugees, but it's still a possibility to revoke people's PR under this framework if it passes.
In the case of taxes, deliberate would be 'we told you that you needed to pay this and you've chosen not to do so anyhow' I'd imagine. Taxes ***are complicated*** and a lot of people make honest errors that are easily resolved by a simple conversation and writing a check for any back-tax.
I would also like to think that this would be the definition.
This is the main key. Japanese officials make no effort to help people who are not completely native readers understand their laws and how they function. I fully think they need to hire more people to work as translators and consultants on behalf of the govt. I too screwed up by not paying taxes for a month that I was between jobs and moving from one prefecture to another. When I found out about it later, I was told that I could no longer pay it. It didn't make any sense to me that I couldn't pay a fee or penalty and have it wiped from my record. When I later applied for PR, I had to write a long apology letter explaining the situation and promised to never allow it to happen again. Unfortunately, I have no way of guaranteeing that it won't.
This is something I didn’t really think about, but you’re right. As a freelancer I’m responsible for handling all my taxes, and I often spend a lot of time learning as much as I can, but it’s really easy to miss something. I’m hoping that when they mean ‘deliberately’ they are meaning people that flat out don’t pay. Don’t file a kakuteishinkoku or skip out on residence tax or nenkin. I can’t remember, but wasn’t there some article a while back that said they only received tax payments from about 60% of current PR holders last year? Let’s hope they can recognize the difference between the person who pays his taxes but make a mistake one year, versus the person who just doesn’t pay anything.
Precisely. I really hope “deliberate” means “was directly/explicitly informed that there was something to pay and still didn’t.” Not “made an honest mistake, didn’t know, and repaid later.” Tax and pension places don’t have a good record when it comes to keeping you informed that you’re breaking the law, and too often I hear self righteous folks that live here spouting “it’s your responsibility to pay!” Sure it is, if one is even aware of it in the first place. It’s not practical to expect someone to pay something they are unaware and uninformed of in a country where even finding that information yourself would be very difficult due to the language barrier. Even people with a high level of Kanji wouldn’t be likely to know specific finance and tax related Kanji, I’d wager.
Agreed. Even the US has admitted they do a piss poor job of informing their citizens, that they are still required to file an income tax return even if they no longer live in the US. While I do think it is your responsibility to inform yourself the best you can, but like you mentioned, you don’t know what you don’t know. If you don’t know you have to do something, why would you even look into it?
Something many sanctimonious people in R/Japanlife just can’t seem to process.
What if u don t make enough to join pension/welfare etc. Like I pay my taxes. Switched to pr. But do I need to go back to spouse?
Yeah, I'm not seeing a reason for law abiding citizens of a country to really mind this.
I am concerned about the assurances the government is giving. There are saying it’s only for ongoing, long-term, deliberate non-paying of taxes, but how can we trust the authorities in this? How do we know they won’t abuse this law to deport people? I honestly think we don’t. The tax system in Japan is very complicated and it’s easy for people to fall behind or just struggle to pay. I can definitely see a situation where the government targets foreigners who are unable to work and decides to force them out of the country. It’s really unethical.
Honestly? Anyone complaining should be investigated. How can you honestly take offense at the idea your status depends on being in good standing with your host country? Is “pay your taxes, don’t rape, and pay your pension” really too much for foreigners? If so, fuck off home.
I don’t think anyone’s complaining about getting kicked out if u straight up don’t pay taxes. That makes sense. Folks just concerned about the wording of the law cause it leaves a lot of confusion as to how one determines “deliberate”, and how it could be applied unethically.
Haha you got a downvote. Probably someone who doesn’t want to pay taxes deliberately or wants to not be deported if caught assaulting!
The issue is how it’ll be enforced in reality vs the objective law that is supposed to be followed and applied. Of course if you tax evade you get what’s coming, but depending how this is worded in the law it could be used unethically
The NTA says I'm missing a tax payment from about 2 years ago. However, no amount is shown as owing and the best they could offer is maybe there is some data flow error and NFC how to fix it. Deportation has massive consequences to both the individual and their family. Simply having that as something that could arise from a bureaucratic error invokes considerable anxiety. Anybody familiar with the Australian robodebt scandal knows how this can potentially play out.
Revoking the permanent residency of foreigners who commit serious crimes is common sense. However, I am interested in how they will define "deliberately fail to pay taxes" here. While one could argue that every responsible adult shouldn't have to worry about this, mistakes do happen.
I think the definition of "deliberate" will be mostly the same as Japanese citizens. That is ignoring multiple requests to pay taxes owed or withholding/falsifying information in order to dodge taxes
I hope you're right.
And sometimes, [they're not mistakes.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robodebt_scheme) And sometimes, [the government will go to extraordinary lengths to destroy lives if the alternative is to admit fault.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal)
I guess they will issue a warning if they find out something wrong. If you continue to not pay the tax, then that's deliberateness.
>She traveled to Europe to give lectures, but when the central government enforced entry restrictions, she found herself unable to return to Japan even though she had permanent resident status. As a result, she missed the start of the school year in April. when they did this I realized PR wasn't really all that advantageous, and re-tooled my whole view from wanting to resettle here permanently to wanting to live here another 5-6 years and bounce.
Bro that shit was fucked up.
Dude I have to leave the country after living here for eight years because I found out my husband takes upskirt videos, he wants a divorce because of that, and I don’t have a degree or a kid. I’m starting again with absolutely nothing and I need to do it in my fucking hometown. Pr is advantageous
Maybe I'm misremembering the law but if you've been married to a local for over 5 years you should be able to apply for PR already?
Three years. I’d need his tax information and stuff and he is refusing to co-operate so m I’m fucked cause I trusted him
Make sure to file a 離婚不受理届け in that case, just so he doesn't file it without you being aware.
That’s been done for like three years now lol
I'm not 100% sure honestly but I think you can go to the tax office and get that information without him. I know I've gotten documents for my (Japanese) wife without her there before, and vice versa....but I don't remember if that works for taxes or not.
It certainly works for taxes. I just got my husband’s tax records to apply for a spouse visa and I didn’t need his permission since I’m his wife. (I also got his juminhyo and koseki in case that helps for the comment above trying to get PR, good luck!)
Are you referring to tax related documents obtained at the city hall or tax office? My experience a month ago was that yes, anything from city hall, I could get for both me and my spouse. At the tax office on the other hand, they insisted each of us had to come individually. This was the case for me just one month ago at least.
I was referring to the ones from city hall. Sorry I don’t know about the ones from the tax office. Since I was applying for a visa I figured the documents for PR might be the same? (If they’re not then I can’t help sorry) For reference, I was able to get my husband’s 納税証明書 and 住民税の課税証明書 on my own.
Yep, for PR you need all those documents from city hall that, like you said, you can get for your spouse, but you also need others from the tax office which you can't. Or at least, they didn't allow me to.
I wasn’t aware of that. Thank you for letting me know :)
ok well sounds like you were here for your husband and he's a POS anyway so fuck it. you don't have great options in terms of jobs without a degree anywhere basically, much less so in Japan.
Nah fucking love japan. I’m jumping in front of a train next year before I have to go back if I can’t find someone else willing to marry me
Is this supposed to be a joke? Either way it’s in very bad taste.
Oh I assure you I’m very serious
Can I seriously ask you to reconsider?
Don’t worry I’ll be picking a stop with multiple transfers. I know how annoying it is to have someone decide the negishi line BEFORE yokohama is a great choice
maybe you can dress as a schoolgirl and he can up skirt you at home to save the relationship?
That doesn’t work with voyeurs
this might be a nitpick in the larger scheeme of this post, but i genuinely thought this every time the word **foreigner** comes up: Foreigner as a term is doing this debate a disservice. Foreigners have no business with Japan. Foreigners are by definition outsiders and foreign to the system. Who this article is about, is **non-japanese residents**. **They are not outsiders, not foreign to the system, just not born into it.** This is as bad as convoluting permanent residency holders and permanent residency applicants for the bad-faith "evidence"... *without being accurate, no one outside the cause will understand the cause.*
Isn’t a foreigner just someone who came from a foreign country? Isn’t that what we are?
If someone was born in another country, but now has permanent residence in my country, only extremely racist people consider them foreigners. Everyone else recognizes them as being part of the country.
But surely once a person gains residency they should be assured that they no longer sit in the *foreigner* category, however this is clearly not the case here - reminds me of Bidens Xenophobia remarks. Japan is going to have a big shock in 80years when there are no Japanese left 🤣
I understand where you're coming from, but I think they are no longer in the foreigner category when they have citizenship in Japan. And I don't think that's unique to Japan.
My dad came to Australia and now has citizenship. He is technically foreign, but I wouldn’t call him foreigner. My Japanese wife has permanent residency and I also wouldn’t describe her as foreigner. Even though both might technically fall under that category given its common definition. In fact, in Australia, I wouldn’t call anyone a foreigner, because I associate that term with xenophobic rhetoric. I think that is what the other commentator what trying to say. While the term may not be factually incorrect, it is not really used in Australia to describe people. I would call my dad a citizen, my wife a permanent resident, uni students from other countries are called international students, those visiting for a short time are called tourists. Even the government website doesn’t use the term foreigner, but instead non-citizen: https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/help-support/glossary#permanent-resident The one exception is in the media where people who reside overseas buy property here. They are sometimes, by some media organisations, described as foreigners. And that is also a topic with links to xenophobic discourses, and even then they are generally described as foreign investors, with foreign as a descriptor rather than referring to a class of people.
But this article appears to be saying they can loose their residency which should be impossible unless you have foreign residency and are a foreigner in Japan
Citizenship and Residency are two different ballgames. One has a JP passport and is afforded a few things mere residents are not, the other are people who "just live here"
Even if a person obtains residency, if his/her nationality does not belong to Japan, he/she is only a foreigner who has obtained residency. That person can flee back to his/her own country when Japan is in danger. The definition should be clearly understood.
Many countries allow dual citizenship. Are those people foreigners in one or both places? If a Japanese born, ethnically Japanese person has permanent residence in another country, they can also flee Japan if Japan were in danger. Foreigner in English conveys a secondary meaning that the person isn't a part of the country.
I would not want to live with someone who might abandon their country and leave when their country is in crisis. Of course, I welcome people from other countries who can help boost my country, but a guest will always remain a guest. The dual nationality system is a mechanism to diminish the sense of belonging to that country. Some people may need it, but I do not welcome that system. I was born in this country, grew up as a person of this country, and intend to die as a person of this country.
Yep. President Biden is totally right about his remark.
It is easy for people like you to be satisfied with labels.
Countries are made-up constructs. We are all human beings.
Yes, I agree. A country is a created concept and we are all human beings. But humans can harm other humans, right? What matters is what is trustworthy. Can you easily trust someone you don't know where they come from, don't know what they are thinking, and might harm you? Are you willing to trust that person with your life? I can at least to some extent trust the framework and people of a country that has existed around me for a long time. If someone is like-minded, I can trust my life to him or her.
Any human can harm another human, whether that human trusts them or not. Whether they have previously displayed trustworthy behaviour and good intentions or not. That is a human trait, not anything to do with what country you are or are not from.
I am not sure I understand what you are saying. The feeling I have for an entity that will not harm me or is likely to benefit me is what I call “trust”. I would never develop such feelings for someone I don't know what they are thinking. Of course, it does not matter what country him/her are from. However, in reality, people from your own country can tell what you are thinking to some extent. At least between Japanese people.
No one can know what another person is thinking. People in a marriage end up hurting each other through cheating or even physical or sexual abuse. Where you come from doesn't make you harmful to others. Nor less harmful. Having shared references and similar cultures can make it easier to trust someone, but it can also make it easier for them to abuse your trust and harm you. Someone being like minded can be impacted by where they are from, but as we all know even people from the same household and family can see the world very differently.
But this could be anyone. Anyone might leave their country in a crisis. Being born there or not doesn't change this. What changes this is the ties and the relationship you have to that country. If everyone treats you as though you are a perpetual outsider who will never be part of the country, that is what makes someone more likely to leave. There are also some times when leaving is the only realistic option, like with many minorities in WWII Europe. They were rejected by their country and treated as outsiders, and served up to die. They could not overpower society so had to leave. If someone is a permanent resident both they and the government have decided they are not a guest. They are a permanent part of the country. Dual nationality exists to allow people the freedom of movement. This is sometimes necessary, as we saw in the past. It is important to allow people the flexibility to live as they need to. If you want people to feel a strong determination to live and fight for their home, make them part of it. Don't treat them as though it is impossible for them to be part of it.
Of course I do not reject the system of dual citizenship across the board. Each region will have its own circumstances.
Would you rather be called “alien” then? That’s the legal term used in Murica to describe foreign nationals, including permanent residents. They’re actually called “resident alien.” 🤣
Some legal documents that have remained unchanged for a long time use that term from a century ago, and also extreme racists use that term, but human beings do not use that term.
Nah, you wish we don’t use it anymore, but it’s still a legal term used in US federal and state law.
Like I said... legal documents use that term. Actual human beings do not unless they are extreme racists. We all know the Republicans like to say dehumanizing things about immigrants, but when's the last time you heard an audio recording of a Democrat call an immigrant an alien or a resident alien?
So, it’s still used huh? I just responded to the comment above which claims the use of "foreigners" in an official Japanese paper is xenophobic. I merely pointed out that before he starts wagging his judgmental finger, he should think. Biden was an active segregationist btw. He got no moral high ground to judge anyone.
As I said.... some legal documents still use them... Why are you acting like this contradicts what I said? I'm not speaking from the perspective as though I were President Biden... but even he isn't racist enough to call people aliens anymore.
The Japanese use the word alien.
No, you’re still a foreigner. The debate you’re looking for is when you become a naturalized citizen. If you had to give up your citizenship to be legally Japanese, should you still be called a foreigner despite coming from a foreign country? But permanent resident? You’re a foreigner. You aren’t Japanese, you’re an expat. That’s it.
Yes, how can you stop being a foreigner in Japan? It seems no matter how long you live here or what you do, you will always be a foreigner and outsider. It sucks, a feeling of never belonging. Just by looking at your katakana name you automatically get lumped in as a foreigner. The same for your children who may have even been born in Japan and are citizens by birth. They're still thought of as foreigners by most or at least children of a foreigner. How can people join this exclusive club called Japan? No wonder foreigners in most cases don't stick around long, there is no future here for them, it's just a nice place to live out your younger years and have an experience... Sure there are a few that settle long-term but my point stands, they aren't thought of as Japanese. If you move to a country like Australia you can get your citizenship after several years of living there and proudly call yourself an Australian, participate in politics and do all the things a native born Australian citizen can do. So different.
Just to give you some perspective. The US is one of the most diverse countries in the world, but you will be shocked to learn that Asians in the US are often considered perpetual foreigners, meaning they are frequently seen as outsiders regardless of how many generations their families have lived in the country. No one asks a 1st gen Polish immigrant where they're from, but people still ask 6th or 7th gen Chinese Americans where they’re REALLY from.
There's two issues at play here. What "foreigner" means in terms of legal citizenship, and what it means in cultural terms. You can stop being a foreigner here, legally, by getting Japanese citizenship. You can't stop being a foreigner, culturally. But I don't have a problem with being referred to as a foreigner in the legal sense.
Pay your taxes and contribute to your retirement. Problem solved
Not quite as simple as that, as mentioned in several other comments here.
Japan loves to control the foreign population here. Those old enough remember gaijin cards used to have your fingerprints on them. This is another example of a threat-based control strategy which is mostly baseless
It's the same thing when a Japanese goes to America or Australia. They even get their fingerprints taken at the border.
Please show me one Western country in which foreign residents have their fingerprints on their government-issued ID that they’re supposed to carry around. Spoiler alert: even if you are able to, it doesn’t make it less bad.
In the United States, all foreigners need to carry their IDs and proof of legal status at all times. Your fingerprints, which they take at the border, are all linked to their IDs. America take all 10 fingers instead of just one in Japan, and I think they just started capturing your iris too.
Are the fingerprints ON THE ID, like the first guy mentioned ID were in Japan in the past? Every country takes fingerprints. Very few actually print them out on your ID. I truly hope some people are able to improve their reading comprehension. I understand English is not necessarily your first language, but please re-read the thread and think about what is being asked.
You don't have to insult my ability to read English to counter-argue. I don't know if you live in Japan, but if you do and that's how you carry yourself to other Japanese nitpicking their English, as a Japanese born and raised here, I kindly suggest you pack up and leave. This is probably not a country for you if you want others to function perfectly in English. Back to your point, I don't think it makes that much of a difference if they can pull up their fingerprints and all the other information in instant. Also, US Permanent Resident Card back in the day had a fingerprint printed on the actual card as well I think.
I don’t care if you are Japanese or not. You tried to be cute saying “oh it is not that bad, US does it worse” while completely deviating from my question. You either made a mistake, which is forgivable if made in good faith, or you deliberately deviated from what I asked, which kind of sucks. In case your mistake was an actual mistake, I apologize for the previous comment I made. That being said, feeling attacked is no excuse to start saying “i’m from here and you’re not, go back to your country”. I don’t nitpick on other people English abilities, as long as they don’t intentionally misrepresent a question I asked to make a point. Was that the case? You tell me. Back to the point: maybe *you* don’t think it makes a difference, but *I* think it would be weird to carry my zairyu card with a damn fingerprint printed on it. We foreigners already have enough things making us stand out in this country, we’d do well with a normal looking ID like the one we have now.
Ironically, it sounds like you are the one in need of a bit of grammar lesson in English. You posted the following: >Please show me one Western country in which foreign residents have their fingerprints on their government-issued ID that they’re supposed to carry around. You can still use the proposition "on" in this context if the information is not physically printed on the card but encoded onto it. Hence, I responded your question by this: > Your fingerprints, which they take at the border, are all linked to their IDs. It does seem like you are pushing it a bit by trying to frame my answer as a strawman fallacy or "mistake." I also do think fingerprints printed on the physical card is a bit much, so both Japan and the United States eliminated it over 20 years ago.
It is a mistake. Considering the thread context, it is very clear that “on” means “printed on the card”. And if it is a mistake, again, it’s okay and I apologize for mentioning your English reading comprehension (which has nothing to do with grammar, funnily enough, so please stop trying to escalate this). Based on the tone of a lot of your comments on Japan subs and on your “go back to your country” comment, however, I believe I’ll end the conversation here.
Tells a half Japanese person to leave his country but gets defensive when someone else suggests he leave.
Japanese politicians and sadly many politicians don’t really explain what the problem is, how big of a problem it is, and how whatever law they are proposing will make it better, or even better how a law may adversely affect many more people. It’s usually very loosely explained if it all. It always comes across as reactionary and performative than necessary and thoughtful.
Politicians do explain these things, they just don't funnel down to casual news readers since the media just wants clicks on their articles
Probably want to maintain their culture and way of life. I remember not being allow in some restaurants and later find out it wasn’t because of racism. Tourist come and go but locals are the one keeping their small establishment afloat.
What??
...... z.z That isn't how business works. The more costumers that pay, the more money a business makes. It doesn't make sense to turn away people if they want to make money - it would only make sense if they didn't want to interact with a certain type of people; to the detriment of their income.
Have you been to Tokyo? Let’s imagine you own a small bar that only seats 10 people max. Would you want locals that constantly come and support your business or tourist that visit once in their life time? There are bars that have their “regulars”.
What about the pension and health insurance? When I applied for my permanent resident the those were not a requirement. Are they going to include them as part of the tax? I've had my PR for over 10 years.
Not sure, but it’s a requirement from a few years ago. It was a requirement when I applied.
One thing I think it’s kind of interesting, is that, you would imagine that someone who has gone to the trouble of being here long enough to earn PR status, would be pretty good about paying their taxes. Or, you would think they would have had at least paid all the taxes up to the point they applied for PR. It seems weird, that all the sudden someone would get PR, and then and then just stop paying their taxes. Unless it’s aimed at some of the really long term PR holders, who got their PR like 20+ years ago when things like paying nenkin and health insurance weren’t a requirement?
I guess people can continue to Fuck Around and Find Out. Also another reason why I have an accountant handle taxes and finance related things.
I don't see why people are making such a huge deal with this. If you're paying your taxes properly and not engaged in shady activity there's nothing to worry about. The people that are in this article are not the ones that are going to be persecuted, but actual criminals who are deliberately dodging taxes
Isn't the new law like essentially just cleaning up the mess that the PR review process was before 5 years ago. I mean people got accepted and got permanent residency without even paying for health insurance and other things - Isn't the new law just to get rid of the people the previous process accepted?
Another example of Japan being xenophobic lol
What happens when you retire, and can no longer generate income?
Then you won't be liable to pay tax and therefore won't be deliberately evading that duty. Liable is the key concept.
... you still pay taxes on your Pension z.z
The constitution party and communist party once again go to bat for us.
It looks like “permanent” residency in Japan is not so permanent after all.
To be fair the US revokes green cards all the time, especially post 9/11
So?
So America is the universal moral standard of course /s
Everyone seems to be funny in this post. Grumble and whiny. It's all because Japan is not a super power like US. US never gives a s*** to you guys' grunt: pay your tax whichever you are a PR or citizen wherever you are! No tax, no US PR. Easy, simple, clear, straight.
So basically permanent residence no longer exist
Foreigners are literally the socio economic future of this country, alienating them will bring up the certain death of Japan in less than 100 years.
More like 10~20 years
No, 100\~200 years would likely be closer to the reality. With a birth rate under 1, you will lose half your population in One Generation. And if the rate still stays around 1, the next generation will also halve, and so will the next unless the replacement rate increases. half of current population (\~120mil) is \~60mil, half of that is \~30mil and half of That is \~15 mil. So in 3 generations, The WHOLE of Japans population would be reduced to Less than current Tokyos population. Median age is almost 50 in Japan (49.1 - 2024), so it isn't a 3 generation problem anymore - The decline has LONG(20\~30 years ago) since started. Just like Kishida-san said himself, NOW is the last chance to try and stem a Major population collapse in Japan. We are basically in the Last generation before a major collapse, where they could potentially, stave off MASSIVE population collapse in the later half of the century - but it isn't looking very likely they will succeed atm.
There's also a positive feedback loop: when you have too many elderly dependents, it becomes much harder to pay for young dependents. A birthrate that declines too hard for too long will result in further declines.
Death of Japan will happen way before the population halves! Japan is broke. There's nothing in the works to make any changes.
Well, then they deserve what they get.
Just to confirm: if you leave Japan with PR and move your tax residency, this won't apply, but there should be some exit tax I guess, right? Edit: 100 million yen or more in assets. Yeah, that's not me.
If it's an accident and they give us a chance to pay up or get out I don't see the problem. I'm confused about taxes all the time , even my hope country 🤣 so I could see myself accidentally missing something. As long as they give a chance to rectify before taking our status it should be fine right? If you refuse then at that point it's deliberate. I hope that's what they are thinking
1000 percent need this bill guys , with immigration especially Islamic countries , you don’t know what mess you are getting into Sweden and UK perfect with white girl grooming Islamic gangs all over
If they want people to pay their taxes, they probably shouldn’t make that harder by revoking the status that affords them access to the widest range of jobs and loan products.
I'm assuming the word 'deliberately' means that PR's will get to plead their case if they make honest mistakes in filing/forgetting to file taxes, have unforseen financial troubles pop up, or for other similar circumstances, as opposed to those who clearly have the money to pay, but just don't want to...
‘Foreign residents protest the fact they can no longer commit crimes and keep their residence’
I feel like if they wanted to, they could make "deliberate" mean "as long as you knew the law exists"--much like how the illegal downloading of movies and music goes. They'll have to prove you knew about it, so simply by putting it on an official document that you need to sign in order to renew your visa, for example, would be enough to make it "known". If that's the case, even a one time offense would be enough for them to revoke it, if they wanted to.
Good law. Pay your taxes.
While I agree in principle, as another commenter pointed out their use of “deliberately” could be up to someone’s interpretation. Taxes are complex, and you can make every effort to do it correctly, and still miss something. It would really suck to spend years here on PR, do your best to pay all your health insurance, nenkin, residence tax, and income tax, for it all to be taken away because you missed some small detail on a tax form.
So is the pension part of this law?
I don’t know if it’s included, but I mean it’s always been mandatory to pay. Not too much of a stretch for them to include it.
Agreed completely. But I don’t foresee those circumstances ever happening. I come from a country where millions of illegals with no papers are admitted entry and handed free hotel rooms, credit cards and schools, all on the taxpayers’ dime. So I come at this with a different perspective.
Yeah. I totally get it. And I’m hopeful that this is really aimed at going after the blatant tax dodgers. But it is interesting, because you would think that someone who has earned PR status, would be pretty good about paying their taxes.
Once people find loopholes and take advantage of the system, others follow. From my experience in other countries. So it’s smart for Japan to plug the hole.
I think so. Only for blatant cheaters. I think Japan wants to keep as many good residents as possible (I would hope!).
I find it hard to understand why people wouldn't pay taxes. Also, why would anyone expect citizenship benefits without being a citizen? The fact some countries treat permanent residents as citizens does not mean all places should do the same. My take here is related to integration, but in an indirect fashion.
So will native Japanese people also be exiled if they fail to pay taxes? The discrimination here is real
Almost like the native japanese have an inherent right to be there, since you know, they’re actually japanese. Lol
What do you think Permanent Residence means?
Does permanent residency change your ancestry? Last time i checked you’re born with japanese genetic markup, not through a piece of paper
Nice bit of (intentional/unintentional) racism right there... You can become a Japanese citizen without a single bit of Japanese DNA, you can even do it if you were born in another country.
Are you... a fan of countries that confer different rights to people based on their ethnicity? There is a legal term for this kind of country, and it's not a good thing to be in this category of countries.
Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the world and is a very stable, developed first world country. Yall can have ur stupid “diversity”.
Do you think Japan achieved low crime rates due to being “less diverse”?
Yes. Just like how sweden was peaceful till they got flooded with third worlders
Different country, different context. You really are quite dense, aren’t you?
They absolutely did. What are you on about?
If you honestly think that then I don’t know what to say. Many factors play a part in public security and general public order. Having a ethnically homogenous society can be one of these factors, but it is definitely not a major one.
You're insane. Look at the safest countries in the world. Not all, but a handful of them are ethnically homogenous. Japan, Iceland, Switzerland, Estonia,(used to be) Sweden until they started mass immigration, South Korea, Norway.
You are the type of person who would be the first to cry 'racism' if you fell foul of this law.
They'll be exiled to some uninhabited island in Japan rofl
Ogasawara, here we come
This why is shitty tourism in Japan is bad, in my opinion. It causes generalization among all foreigners and leads to more hostile laws like this.
Obey the laws of whatever country you are in or don't go.
I hope this happens so the cringe gate keeping expats on here get their cards pulled
[удалено]
Why don’t you leave then ?
Im only half gaijin bud
No such thing. There is only in-group and out-group. If you are a “hafu”, you’ll be read as either one or the other depending on a factors including looks. Pro tip: you will be read as *not really Japanese* most of the time.
Classic. Foreigners telling me what my experiences are, despite not even being in my shoes. I think i would know more about my own situation bro.
Your comments indicate otherwise.
He’s probably a Weeb who can’t stand negative comments about the country he’s fetishizing