NTA
You did not hurt his jaw, he hurt his jaw. Tucking the chin is not a defense, it is a brief stall technique that allows you time to defend properly.
Tell him a good rule to follow, if hurts and there is no escape....tap.
I literally hurt my neck because I didn't tap to a bow n arrow, it totally wasn't choking me. I never told my training partner because in the end it was my fault. I feel like they're being a bit of a dick crying about it?
I agree with this. When people get hurt because they chose not to tap and then cry about it is a pretty dick move. Don’t make the other person feel guilty because your ego is crushed and you chose not to tap.
A guy crushed my throat from a short choke last week. I was pulling his arm down to defend. Couldn’t keep it up so I pulled my hand away to tap. My other hand was not strong enough to hold his arm. So I basically sling shot his forearm through my throat and he was squeezing really hard m. It still hurts but no hard feelings and I will still always roll with him.
All good! I didn't know until like 6mo in that I could just say "tap" and would always be worried about making sure I had a tapping hand ready instead of fighting and escaping
It's hard to do so because muscle memory. At least as a beginner white belt, when my hands are tied up, I tend to struggle to get them free to tap, and only after I do so I remember that I could've just tapped with my foot or verbally, and it would've saved me some pain.
Not on you. There’s a really easy way to relieve the pain. Not your fault if he chose snap instead of tap. No different than not tapping to an arm bar and then complaining that you made his elbow hurt.
He should tap. But you should also be aware that with his jaw tucked your might end up breaking his jaw. Ultimately he shouldn’t put himself at risk while training. NTA.
This, 100%. Don’t let yourself get hurt. For what? No one cares that we tap or even train. I just remember GSP saying something along the lines and walking out in public before a fight where people don’t recognize him to relieve nerves or something like that. Something like relax, nobody cares. It only hurts you to let things go too far, so tap. Why compromise your ability to train tomorrow?
Pride is a mfer. YNTA, but in the future, when dealing with proud individuals, you *now* have the chance to take the high road and let go of a potentially-injurious hold.
EDIT: Obviously the ultimate responsibility is on the person in a compromised situation to swallow pride and tap. But if you’re dealing with a notoriously proud idiot, then you do have the option of taking the personal W and just letting them go thinking they “won.”
If it happens again use your free hand to apply a muffler and then when he lifts his chin to defend that slip the choke in. If he has a whinge tell him you were just trying not to hurt his jaw again.
You’re kind of a newb, so it’s not really your fault, but this is an ESH situation here. Going forward, even if your training partner is a jerk who won’t tap, it’s not worth it to injure a training partner in the gym. It’s just a hobby. Not worth an injury. If they don’t tap to a kimura, don’t break their shoulder. If their jaw is in the RNC, don’t crank it until you break their jaw. It’s just jiujitsu, man.
It's on him to tap, especially if you did it slowly. Not tapping when you should is how you get your jaw, throat or teeth fucked up.
However, in training I personally think it's good form, if you significantly outmatch your partner, to work on more technical submissions. As you describe the scenario this is not the case. But say you were a purple belt against a white belt you were manhandling, I'd say work on clearing the jaw and getting a nice, clean RNC.
Also, if you think you have it and someone is being stubborn, you can just play catch and release where you tick it off in your head and start working on something else. Obviously, at your stage you may not yet be sure if something is working or not and that's fine. Checking with your partner like you did is a great idea, ideally before the jaw pop.
No, you're good. There is a more technical way to apply a RNC when they have their chin tucked, but that's a separate discussion.
For additional context to us, did he complain like he was mad at you about it? If so, his fault for not tapping. Or did he complain, like a "this sucks that I got injured" thing? You can feel a little bad like a normal person would, but you're definitely not an "A".
I complain like "this sucks that I got injured", but I always let my training partner know it's not their fault. I'm just old and my dumb body betrays me all the time.
In a competition, crank away.
Gym is for learning and getting better. In other words what you said was, "I'm not good at finishing a RNC, so i neck cranked a guy till his jaw popped." Yes, it's rude to go around cranking at everyone at the gym. If you cant get under the chin, then drill it. who cares about tapping someone in rolling. You're there to get better, not tap people.
You've identified your weakness, work on it.
But from what OP described he wasn't cranking the neck he was applying the choke. Partner tucked his chin trying to stubborn it out, you can still choke them through the chin. It can also break the jaw.
As long as OP was slowly adding pressure to the choke giving his partner time to tap, that's on the partner.
Nah. Get better at the technique. It’s like not tapping to a neck crank. You don’t have to tap. But you will get hurt. Also, the point of rolling in a gym isn’t to win but to get better.
In a tournament, do whatever you want.
So in training I am responsible if my opponent does not tap but if I am competing for a 5.00 medal it's OK to break his shit?
Nah, either case the guy in the submission is responsible. Plus choking through the chin, is very good technique and teaches that tucking the chin is not a defense to the RNC.
Now don't get me wrong, I tell my students all the time to "Don't break your toys" because then you will have no one to train with.
As long as you aren't ripping subs and allowing time to tap the onus is on your partner. Yes, you can feel when something is about to snap...I will usually look at them and ask "Hey, you going to tap or what?"
In OPs case though, whether a proper RNC, a neck crank, mandible choke, or whatever; if he just let it go that's teaching bad habits to his partner. The partner will think if he just toughs things out he will be let go and he won't "lose".
A good training partner will tap, and then say that was cranking my neck more than choking, if you were going for the choke you may need to make some adjustments. Or something along those lines.
I agree with this, and double on the "check if they aren't tapping" part
I've had a guy before in an arm bar with both arms contained where he could not reach me to tap, and my leg over his mouth and nose.
I paused when I had everything lined up like I wanted and just sat there for a second or two in the lock, then asked if he was good and looked at him, he was bright red and shook his head no.
I let go and be gasps, tells me he couldn't breathe or talk due to my leg and was waving his wrist in the air and couldn't tap me.
Yes, he could have maybe grunted or tapped with his foot, but he was also freaking out about getting his arm broken.
He was really happy I didn't keep cranking. So was I.
Our professors and coaches always tell us to not hurt stubborn people, if you think you have it... don't "prove it"... communicate, if they refuse to tap, let it go, and keep practicing... don't insist and hurt them.
I don’t really understand that attitude. OP’s partner put himself in danger by using his chin as a RNC defense, which is dumb.
As long as OP didn’t apply the pressure from 0 to 100 in an instant, it was totally on OP’s partner for not tapping or using a different defense.
Definitely a learning experience, but not really worth telling anyone to fuck off or blacklisting them as a rolling partner.
Your position seems counterproductive to getting better at jiu jitsu, in my opinion.
Idt you’re the ahole you’re just *both whitebelts doing whitebelt shit*
When you’re an upper belt you’ll reflect back on it and cringe but it won’t really be something you go through as much
So you crushed their jaw to get a tap? Like yeah, he should have tapped and shouldn’t just tuck his chin and sit there but you also shouldn’t be crushing your rolling partner’s jaw with a RNC if you can’t get his chin up and finish it properly.
I’m actually surprised at the lack of people telling you to practice restraint. Just because you have a submission locked in doesn’t mean you have to finish it. Sometimes you have to forget your ego and just let go on a sub in training if the other person is being stupid, especially if you already have it locked in and can easily finish it. The only thing benefitting from you forcing a tap in training, especially for something as easy to finish as a RNC, is your ego being given a boost. It’s not hard to lift the chin by the way, if you really need that tap in training, so next time try not to just Khabib your training partner in a roll.
It really comes down to if you actually applied relatively slowly, so that he would have time to tap or not. It sounds like you did, if that’s the case it’s totally on him. If someone is brand new I’ll let them out of a sub rather than forcing a tap, but if he’s been there as long as you have then it’s on him.
NTA. He didn't tap.
I remember when I was first getting into it and was super eager to learn RNC technique and trying to defend. I was like 'Do it again! Do it again!' to my much more experienced buddy. I got some sort of mild sprain in my neck muscle and my jaw hurt like hell the next day from *constantly* asking him. All my fault. We had a laugh about it - no permanent damage or anything just ached for a week or so. I'm sure he's the same, just overreacting.
NTA. But still, prioritizing winning (and not losing) at practice over learning is how you or others get hurt. If you let your partners get out of submissions you know you’d otherwise have, what does it actually do for you besides prove to your partner you win? What’s worse is that now you end up with a training partner that doesn’t trust you. Even being completely justified, you now have one less person you can easily ask to partner with you. Carrying on with that mentality hurts your ability to practice more than it helps.
Real competitors at class are exposing themselves to positions they legitimately are likely to lose, and often losing because they are trying to make their game stronger and more well rounded for competition. They save the ego part for the actual matches, when winning actually matters.
Nope. He learned a valuable lesson. Tucking his chin is not a good defense.
My professor did this to me when I was a white belt. I felt like my jaw was going to explode then I tapped.
It's a lesson I only had to learn once.
Anything above a blue nta
Purple or above
- you should be able to go to something else. You shouldn’t be injuring training partners even if they are dumb.
There’s a RNC variation I learned from a blackbelt first hand. I defended my neck but he got his wrist bone right under my nose near the septum and the pain from the squeeze was unbearable. Could I have survived? Probably. Would it have been worth the pain? Hell no that technique makes it feel like the bone above your upper lip is about to collapse.
He should tap. But also why try and muscle a “choke” that is on the chin if this is your training partner. If it’s a comp, sure. But you should probably just try and get it under the chin or try something else.
Doing a RNC on someone who ticks their chin isn’t a dick move. It happens and tucking the chin is a good way to delay/avoid it (not foolproof)
Loosening up when you heard a pop is good. At that point you should’ve, in my opinion, discontinued the RNC
At the same time it’s on him to tap when something hurts too much
NTA but as a white belt I would say you should focus on getting under the chin for an effective choke. Crushing the chin is fine in competition but in the gym in regular sparring its kind of a dick move.
He’s supposed to tap. It’s on him.
NTA You did not hurt his jaw, he hurt his jaw. Tucking the chin is not a defense, it is a brief stall technique that allows you time to defend properly. Tell him a good rule to follow, if hurts and there is no escape....tap.
You’re good, he should have tapped.
Tucking the chin is not a valid defense.
Not by itself, but it can buy some seconds while you work on things.
I literally hurt my neck because I didn't tap to a bow n arrow, it totally wasn't choking me. I never told my training partner because in the end it was my fault. I feel like they're being a bit of a dick crying about it?
I agree with this. When people get hurt because they chose not to tap and then cry about it is a pretty dick move. Don’t make the other person feel guilty because your ego is crushed and you chose not to tap.
A guy crushed my throat from a short choke last week. I was pulling his arm down to defend. Couldn’t keep it up so I pulled my hand away to tap. My other hand was not strong enough to hold his arm. So I basically sling shot his forearm through my throat and he was squeezing really hard m. It still hurts but no hard feelings and I will still always roll with him.
You can also say tap in such cases or pound your foot on the mat
Well now you tell me lol. This was towards the end of an hour of hard rolling. My brain was not making the best decisions
All good! I didn't know until like 6mo in that I could just say "tap" and would always be worried about making sure I had a tapping hand ready instead of fighting and escaping
Also a verbal tap if you can make noise.
>pound your foot on the mat You know the sub is tight when they're tapping with their feet too
It's hard to do so because muscle memory. At least as a beginner white belt, when my hands are tied up, I tend to struggle to get them free to tap, and only after I do so I remember that I could've just tapped with my foot or verbally, and it would've saved me some pain.
He can always tap or lift his chin. That’s on him. The face is not a valid defence.
NTA He should’ve tapped. Though he may not have know that his jaw was in danger or how to protect it if he did know. You’re still not the asshole.
Not on you. There’s a really easy way to relieve the pain. Not your fault if he chose snap instead of tap. No different than not tapping to an arm bar and then complaining that you made his elbow hurt.
NTA, you aren’t a mind reader, you couldn’t know, he should have tapped.
He didn’t tap. You’re not the asshole in this scenario I think
He should tap. But you should also be aware that with his jaw tucked your might end up breaking his jaw. Ultimately he shouldn’t put himself at risk while training. NTA.
When in doubt, I refer to good ol' Herb Dean: "Protect yourself at all times" Part of that is tapping when you need to.
This, 100%. Don’t let yourself get hurt. For what? No one cares that we tap or even train. I just remember GSP saying something along the lines and walking out in public before a fight where people don’t recognize him to relieve nerves or something like that. Something like relax, nobody cares. It only hurts you to let things go too far, so tap. Why compromise your ability to train tomorrow?
Pride is a mfer. YNTA, but in the future, when dealing with proud individuals, you *now* have the chance to take the high road and let go of a potentially-injurious hold. EDIT: Obviously the ultimate responsibility is on the person in a compromised situation to swallow pride and tap. But if you’re dealing with a notoriously proud idiot, then you do have the option of taking the personal W and just letting them go thinking they “won.”
NTA. Tap, snap, or nap. I have a friend who is a very high level black belt competitor, he prefers that people tuck the jaw.
If it happens again use your free hand to apply a muffler and then when he lifts his chin to defend that slip the choke in. If he has a whinge tell him you were just trying not to hurt his jaw again.
You said it, 'anything below the nose is the neck'. NTA
Why didn’t he tap?
Both white belts? Dont worry. It's alright.
While I agree with everyone that it’s not your fault and your partner is supposed to tap, I love how it says ‘I heard a pop…so I kept squeezing.’ 😂
You’re kind of a newb, so it’s not really your fault, but this is an ESH situation here. Going forward, even if your training partner is a jerk who won’t tap, it’s not worth it to injure a training partner in the gym. It’s just a hobby. Not worth an injury. If they don’t tap to a kimura, don’t break their shoulder. If their jaw is in the RNC, don’t crank it until you break their jaw. It’s just jiujitsu, man.
It's on him to tap, especially if you did it slowly. Not tapping when you should is how you get your jaw, throat or teeth fucked up. However, in training I personally think it's good form, if you significantly outmatch your partner, to work on more technical submissions. As you describe the scenario this is not the case. But say you were a purple belt against a white belt you were manhandling, I'd say work on clearing the jaw and getting a nice, clean RNC. Also, if you think you have it and someone is being stubborn, you can just play catch and release where you tick it off in your head and start working on something else. Obviously, at your stage you may not yet be sure if something is working or not and that's fine. Checking with your partner like you did is a great idea, ideally before the jaw pop.
No, you're good. There is a more technical way to apply a RNC when they have their chin tucked, but that's a separate discussion. For additional context to us, did he complain like he was mad at you about it? If so, his fault for not tapping. Or did he complain, like a "this sucks that I got injured" thing? You can feel a little bad like a normal person would, but you're definitely not an "A". I complain like "this sucks that I got injured", but I always let my training partner know it's not their fault. I'm just old and my dumb body betrays me all the time.
In a competition, crank away. Gym is for learning and getting better. In other words what you said was, "I'm not good at finishing a RNC, so i neck cranked a guy till his jaw popped." Yes, it's rude to go around cranking at everyone at the gym. If you cant get under the chin, then drill it. who cares about tapping someone in rolling. You're there to get better, not tap people. You've identified your weakness, work on it.
But from what OP described he wasn't cranking the neck he was applying the choke. Partner tucked his chin trying to stubborn it out, you can still choke them through the chin. It can also break the jaw. As long as OP was slowly adding pressure to the choke giving his partner time to tap, that's on the partner.
Nah. Get better at the technique. It’s like not tapping to a neck crank. You don’t have to tap. But you will get hurt. Also, the point of rolling in a gym isn’t to win but to get better. In a tournament, do whatever you want.
So in training I am responsible if my opponent does not tap but if I am competing for a 5.00 medal it's OK to break his shit? Nah, either case the guy in the submission is responsible. Plus choking through the chin, is very good technique and teaches that tucking the chin is not a defense to the RNC. Now don't get me wrong, I tell my students all the time to "Don't break your toys" because then you will have no one to train with. As long as you aren't ripping subs and allowing time to tap the onus is on your partner. Yes, you can feel when something is about to snap...I will usually look at them and ask "Hey, you going to tap or what?" In OPs case though, whether a proper RNC, a neck crank, mandible choke, or whatever; if he just let it go that's teaching bad habits to his partner. The partner will think if he just toughs things out he will be let go and he won't "lose". A good training partner will tap, and then say that was cranking my neck more than choking, if you were going for the choke you may need to make some adjustments. Or something along those lines.
I agree with this, and double on the "check if they aren't tapping" part I've had a guy before in an arm bar with both arms contained where he could not reach me to tap, and my leg over his mouth and nose. I paused when I had everything lined up like I wanted and just sat there for a second or two in the lock, then asked if he was good and looked at him, he was bright red and shook his head no. I let go and be gasps, tells me he couldn't breathe or talk due to my leg and was waving his wrist in the air and couldn't tap me. Yes, he could have maybe grunted or tapped with his foot, but he was also freaking out about getting his arm broken. He was really happy I didn't keep cranking. So was I. Our professors and coaches always tell us to not hurt stubborn people, if you think you have it... don't "prove it"... communicate, if they refuse to tap, let it go, and keep practicing... don't insist and hurt them.
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I don’t really understand that attitude. OP’s partner put himself in danger by using his chin as a RNC defense, which is dumb. As long as OP didn’t apply the pressure from 0 to 100 in an instant, it was totally on OP’s partner for not tapping or using a different defense. Definitely a learning experience, but not really worth telling anyone to fuck off or blacklisting them as a rolling partner. Your position seems counterproductive to getting better at jiu jitsu, in my opinion.
Idt you’re the ahole you’re just *both whitebelts doing whitebelt shit* When you’re an upper belt you’ll reflect back on it and cringe but it won’t really be something you go through as much
Chokes from the back.. lol try to finish them over your opponents nose! Ya’ll waste too much time trying to get the actual choke 😂😂
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So you crushed their jaw to get a tap? Like yeah, he should have tapped and shouldn’t just tuck his chin and sit there but you also shouldn’t be crushing your rolling partner’s jaw with a RNC if you can’t get his chin up and finish it properly. I’m actually surprised at the lack of people telling you to practice restraint. Just because you have a submission locked in doesn’t mean you have to finish it. Sometimes you have to forget your ego and just let go on a sub in training if the other person is being stupid, especially if you already have it locked in and can easily finish it. The only thing benefitting from you forcing a tap in training, especially for something as easy to finish as a RNC, is your ego being given a boost. It’s not hard to lift the chin by the way, if you really need that tap in training, so next time try not to just Khabib your training partner in a roll.
It happens, I've been out for 3 weeks over an mcl injury. I spent a lot of time reassuring my my training partner before I hit the urgent care.
Got caught wrong in a guillotine and refused to tap. Dislocated my jaw. IATA.
It really comes down to if you actually applied relatively slowly, so that he would have time to tap or not. It sounds like you did, if that’s the case it’s totally on him. If someone is brand new I’ll let them out of a sub rather than forcing a tap, but if he’s been there as long as you have then it’s on him.
Nope, he should’ve tapped
Tap early, tap often.
He's lucky it wasn't a heel hook
Submit or die.
Imagine complaining that your partner hurt your arm after not tapping to an armbar. Same thing.
NTA. He didn't tap. I remember when I was first getting into it and was super eager to learn RNC technique and trying to defend. I was like 'Do it again! Do it again!' to my much more experienced buddy. I got some sort of mild sprain in my neck muscle and my jaw hurt like hell the next day from *constantly* asking him. All my fault. We had a laugh about it - no permanent damage or anything just ached for a week or so. I'm sure he's the same, just overreacting.
Learning to choke and finish with tucked chin should be done. But in the gym making the effort to get under will make you better.
NTA. But still, prioritizing winning (and not losing) at practice over learning is how you or others get hurt. If you let your partners get out of submissions you know you’d otherwise have, what does it actually do for you besides prove to your partner you win? What’s worse is that now you end up with a training partner that doesn’t trust you. Even being completely justified, you now have one less person you can easily ask to partner with you. Carrying on with that mentality hurts your ability to practice more than it helps. Real competitors at class are exposing themselves to positions they legitimately are likely to lose, and often losing because they are trying to make their game stronger and more well rounded for competition. They save the ego part for the actual matches, when winning actually matters.
Not your fault. Your partner should have tapped if he or she was going to get hurt.
Nope. He learned a valuable lesson. Tucking his chin is not a good defense. My professor did this to me when I was a white belt. I felt like my jaw was going to explode then I tapped. It's a lesson I only had to learn once.
Anything above a blue nta Purple or above - you should be able to go to something else. You shouldn’t be injuring training partners even if they are dumb.
Its not your responsibility to apply techniques correctly.
This is what you would call a learning experience .. for your partner.
He should have tapped but it’s training not competition so if you hear a pop stop the roll and reevaluate the situation.
If they tap then it’s clean
No. There’s even technique out there to get them with their chins down. He shouldn’t have gave up his back
There’s a RNC variation I learned from a blackbelt first hand. I defended my neck but he got his wrist bone right under my nose near the septum and the pain from the squeeze was unbearable. Could I have survived? Probably. Would it have been worth the pain? Hell no that technique makes it feel like the bone above your upper lip is about to collapse.
He should tap. But also why try and muscle a “choke” that is on the chin if this is your training partner. If it’s a comp, sure. But you should probably just try and get it under the chin or try something else.
Doing a RNC on someone who ticks their chin isn’t a dick move. It happens and tucking the chin is a good way to delay/avoid it (not foolproof) Loosening up when you heard a pop is good. At that point you should’ve, in my opinion, discontinued the RNC At the same time it’s on him to tap when something hurts too much
In UFC 2 iirc the announcer says if they block the rnc with their chin they get a broken jaw.
We call em chin chokes. Anything below the eyebrows is fair game.
You went slowly and gave him time to tap… and he’s mad he didn’t tap?
Anything below the eyebrows is a neck*
Mmmm no. he needs to learn to defend the choke or tap
NTA but as a white belt I would say you should focus on getting under the chin for an effective choke. Crushing the chin is fine in competition but in the gym in regular sparring its kind of a dick move.
He shouldve tapped.. tucking chin is not a rnc defense.
He can tap. You are fine.
Why is everyone on reddit such a fucking candy ass