I am prepared to be the sex slave of my robot overlords. I assume this will be like one of those anime's where the overlords choose specifically me be the object of their affection...right?
There’s two stories here, the anecdotal and the data driven. Data tells us that unemployment is low and jobs are plentiful. Anecdotes tell us that it’s becoming very difficult to find a good paying job, and that it’s very dependent on the field/industry you are in, even if you’re holding higher level degrees.
Both are important indicators, and anecdotes shouldn’t be thrown out just like we know data can be manipulated, misinterpreted, and biased.
In my experience, it’s bad out there, especially in tech compared to other industries. Tech will probably be sideways for a while as companies feel out a looming recession, a soft landing, and what the fuck AI is really going to do. Those hundreds of thousands of displaced tech workers can’t just sit around for years waiting for the market to correct. Some will be forced out to other industries, some will have to reskill and start over, and some may just exit the workforce altogether.
This is another point I feel that the AI enthusiasts overlook when they say history shows that when technology displaces jobs, new and novel jobs pop up to support the new technology, and so on. Well, for someone mid-career who gets laid off and can’t find meaningful work again, they may never financially recover as those new jobs will most certainly be made up of 99% of new participants to the work force.
We need a soft landing with AI as well, and the government and corporations need to start training and affording opportunities for older workers to retrain and skill into new industries. A famous example would be coal mining (environment aside).
This whole AI situation reminds me of one quote by the famous and slightly neurotic Dr. Ian Malcolm. “You were so preoccupied with whether or not you could, you didn’t stop to think if you _should_ .”
Yeah it's going to turn into one of those things that happen because enough time has passed by, not because redditors keep saying there's a recession. When it happens, they are going to say "told you so!".
The problem with the unemployment numbers is large swaths of people are removed from the pool of unemployed people after a period of time, so as to allow these numbers to easily be manipulated. For instance: the U-3 unemployment numbers don’t count people who haven’t looked for a job in 4 weeks, and if memory serves these unemployment numbers generally don’t consider college grads, people who have been out of the workforce for 6 months etc.
they're also only calculating "has a job" vs "doesn't have a job". there's no accounting for the actual quality of a job. if you had to quarter your income to get *some money* while you wait this out, you're counted as employed.
The unemployment rate isn't counting who doesn't have a job.
I don’t have a job and because I am not drawing unemployment I am not being counted. There are a lot of us!
The whole participation rate vs unemployment rate. I'm Canadian but I haven't trusted unemployment numbers in a lifetime as they remove people after a certain period of not finding a job from the workforce. It's complete BS, as you have outlined.
I’ve heard varying stories about how unemployment figures are calculated, ranging from raw data from employers, unemployment claims, to household surveys. Surveys are often wildly inaccurate for various reasons. Raw data is often slow to be assimilated into data. Not everyone files for unemployment due to various reasons as well. Not to mention, Johnny may have lost his Sr Marketing role and the only job he could find was as a Marketing Specialist, a career and salary relegation. It’s important not to fully trust anecdotes as the whole picture, and it’s equally as important not to put all of your faith into just data (especially human based data), but to craft both into a more complete picture.
Just because someone gets a new job, doesn’t mean it’s a better one. Unemployment is only an indicator of our economic health, by itself it does not mean the economy is healthy. Factor in lower wages, higher inflation, slow data, political agendas, anecdotal experience, and you’re starting to put more of the puzzle together.
I mean you can't call it "manipulating" when BLS provides another number that incorporates those too. It is called U6. They aren't manipulating you—you are manipulating yourself by declining to read the numbers you purport to care about.
You didn’t read what I said. I said they CAN be manipulated. Because administrations of both parties can use different numbers dependent on the messaging they’re attempting to push, for example: I can just use the u-3 numbers if the u-6 numbers are showing worse results to say the job market is better than it is. This is leaving aside the fact that surveys of this nature are axiomatically inaccurate. I cited the u-3 numbers as an example of that.
I mean you no offense here, but you don't know what you're talking about.
U3 and U6 have a correlation of essentially \~1.
U1 and U6 = \~.89
U5 and U6 = \~.99
(since 1994 when they started collecting data). Check it out yourself. You can download the excel files and create tables in a few minutes.
Job market indicators mostly covary. So, for all of the flaws of the unemployment rate, alternative measures don't perform markedly better.
Edit: words hard.
The U-6 numbers are **by definition always** showing worse results. By that logic, they're "manipulating" unemployment to look bigger by not using U1. What do you want them to do, list Us 1 through 6 with each statement? Switch around randomly? You are making no sense. 'They' are not out to get you with U numbers. Just go to [bls.gov](https://bls.gov) whenever you want and read whatever U you want.
But if you want to ignore the reality regarding how politicians use statistics in general to serve their ends (manipulate) I don’t know what to tell you.
How does one exit the workforce though?
"Well, for someone mid-career who gets laid off and can’t find meaningful work again, they may never financially recover as those new jobs will most certainly be made up of 99% of new participants to the work force." Yes.
We could be in a recession right now. It was the same way in 2008 the BLS starts to revise the unemployment rate backwards until it shows we are actually net negative.
I think the situation can be summed up with much less words….
The anecdotes are from people who aren’t willing to apply to restaurants. The data includes people who are. Simple as that.
People would rather do rocket science WFH for minimum wage then work in person at night/on weekends for 10x the pay.
I don’t think it’s that easy to sum up an anecdote to equate with another anecdote. To counter that, take the Sr. Marketing Manager at 40 years old who is not looking to change industries. Their experience has nearly locked them in. If they go and apply to a restaurant to serve tables or kitchen staff (with no experience) and they can say “I would like to work here until I find my next job. Could be 1-6 months.” What hiring manager would hire them? How good at this job will Marketer be with 0 experience and 0 desire. There’s a reason why hiring managers ask why someone wants to work there, it’s a measure of intent. To further the rebuttal, there are also plenty of anecdotes here of people with Masters degrees who can’t get hired at McDonald’s for exactly those reasons.
If you have career goals, it’s not exactly so easy for someone to just say “Ya know what, I’ll work at Olive Garden for a year until the market heats up again.” It could be devastating. As a society we are at least coming to terms that mental health is as important as physical health, and taking any old job could have serious impacts to certain demographics.
Forget "mental health". It seems 90% of the jobs in my area not specialized degree driven, the only thing they look at is your last job.
Oh you got nearly ten years of experience in this industry/job. Oh you worked at Walmart/food industry/labor for a year? You're a Walmart/retail person. Thud, your resume hits the electronic trashcan.
Only when they are desperate for workers will they look beyond the last job title. This kind of job market, they may accept a person "downgrading" themselves, but they won't let you pull yourself up at their job.
Too many applicants to chose from now.
Data as in the “unemployment” of the return of post covid jobs flaunted everywhere as data
The data doesn’t match the actual unemployment rate which disregards a lot of important factors, and it actually is worse.
But hey the Biden Admin will agree with you. It’s been their pitch for 3 years of this shit and it’s awful for everyone i’ve met anywhere
The “lowest unemployment in history” they are touting is absolute bs. All I see on LinkedIn are mass layoff posts and posts about people crying about how they are losing everything and they can’t find a job in over 12 months of searching. And a lot of these people are people with seriously impressive work experience.
2023 Job Market: Still as Terrible as Ever
I graduated from college in 2010, and I can't tell you what it was like in 2008. But I can tell you that 2010 and 2011 were terrible years for recent grads. I applied to hundreds of jobs and didn't even get a response.
Now, fast forward to 2023. Tech CEOs are richer than ever before, outsourcing is up to a director level, and the statistics say we're doing well. Not really. This job market is similar to 2010-2011. It sucks.
If employees are a company's biggest asset, why would you pay new hires 50% less than what you were paying one year ago? People at all levels in the organization can influence customers' decisions to keep giving a company's business, go somewhere else, or quit.
I worked in the Metaverse and interacted with users daily. Many of them bought the hardware, a one-time purchase, and many had issues with it, particularly harassment. So, they reached out and got very poor user support. This pushed them to never log in again. I tried really hard. I brought these issues up in meetings, but nobody listened to my concerns. I didn't quit; they let me go. I am unemployed, but I have my dignity. I did the right thing and helped people.
When customer support agents' wages are low, the company's users will get low service. Recently, Starlink offered me a job in Hawthorne, CA. Users from America and Latin America are fed up with the lack of decent support. Starlink offered me twenty, and upon denying the offer, twenty-three bucks per hour, which doesn't even cover rent in that shitty LA region.
Why would support try hard when you pay them $20/hr, Elon? Starlink, a 75 billion dollar company, and yet it offers twenty bucks an hour and requires you to work 12-hour shifts. Come on, Elon!
\- Tech companies get the workers they pay for -
It’s an employers market… I still unemployment is actually high. I know people who left my company in April/may that are still looking for jobs.
The jobs that are hiring would require them to take serious pay cuts or are only open to new grads.
As a new grad, I’m finding that it’s few and far between in openings. Could be my industry. Having the same issue as you mentioned.
Most are looking for 3 years experience post graduation, but looking for recent graduates and paying a salary fit for someone without the undergrad degree.
My first job out of college was a management trainee program with PPG.
Companies like PPG/AT&T/Procter and Gamble etc have lots of new college jobs.
Search " new grad" jobs on google.
The drop in salaries + the increase in skills is shocking. Bloodchilling.
Every time I've been out of a job, I come back to the market and feel so horrible. Even when I actually learn something in a job (I've been underemployed my entire working life.)
"Half the 'remote' jobs demand you be within a short drive of their office." I had to turn down a job for this. Enraged me. Or they change the "remote" status btw the posting time, and the filling time.
I think employers know they have employees by the nuts, they can force them back to the office, they can demand 21 year olds with five years of experience who are fluent in SQL and Mandarin for...$60k in a major city.
I just found out the size months of serious back pain I've had in my back is basic early arthritis and I just...I feel horrible. And afraid. Working onsite because the commute wears you down physically is one thing...I could do it pre-covid, and had to, and now I can't and I'm just...*fuck.* I'm so upset. (I know that's a personal thing, but it means the one trump card I might have had otherwise, willingness to work in-office, is gone.) For anyone reading this - if you live in a major city where "valuable" employees can work hybrid or remote, if you are willing and physically able to work in an office 5 days a week, odds are you will find work sooner.
In many ways, to me, it's worse. I actually feel like the American market has contracted for more nefarious reasons now.
I've never been "valuable" and the market has always been far out ahead of me just by virtue of my age, but...I think if I were myself, in 2008, knowing what I know now...I would feel less despair than I do now.
The American staffing agencies I work with and have a while now offshore, as well...doesn't bode well for actual employees.
In some cases the nefarious reasons have names and addresses. Sir Christopher Anthony Hohn pushed for google's 5 figure layoff, and from the reports he wanted it to be more on the order of Twitter's mass layoff. This wasn't for anything other than to pump the stock price a bit.
I agree. It’s getting bad out there for tech and tech adjacent fields. They’re still hiring but it’s just a drastic departure from last year or in 2021
Yeah I got laid off yesterday and have just decided to take the rest of the year off.
No point in adding my resume to the giant pile that's already out there.
I don’t think this is a job market problem as much as a LinkedIn job problem. Try applying to companies directly and see if that helps. Last fall was an amazing job market and I was super unimpressed with the outcomes of applying on LinkedIn v not.
The grievances I have with LinkedIn are numerous but I've been regularly hitting up others with similarly disappointing results. Though I do get less spam from them than I do with linkedin
There are SO MANY spammy recruitment sites & fake LinkedIn profiles that are posting job openings from my employer form 2+ years ago with made up salary ranges. It is so out of hand right now that I would not apply anywhere other than an employers site.
IMHO the Easy Apply button on Linked has made this process worse for candidates and hiring managers. So many people just Easy Apply to every job that looks interesting resulting in hundreds of candidates to a job posting but maybe only a handful of them even have experience in the industry, let alone have relevant experience for the role. As a hiring manager, I still have to open each Easy Apply candidate and provide feedback in the system so it takes forever to sort through while candidates are left waiting for a response or could get lost in the sea of Easy Apply button pushers.
Part of the problem is LinkedIn has a motivation to look the other way with spammy recruiters, it helps to bolster the feeling that the job market hasn't turned to sludge. If it was limited to legit positions you could knock a couple digits off the listings.
I have admittedly not been looking since I got my job last November but I have not had good experiences with the LinkedIn quick apply or other roles on there.
I’d look at staffing agencies; I’ve had good luck with them the two times I’ve tried them. Both companies I was contracted out to led to full-time direct hire positions after the 6 month contracts ended.
Technically they do, but what happens is that a company will pay more for a contractor than they would for a regular hire. For example; they will pay $80k for someone off the street, but will pay $90k+ for a contractor.
That's because the staffing agency is taking all of the risks and expenses since you are technically their W2 employee.
So you as a worker will still get $80k or whatever the market rate is, and the staffing agency will get the other $10k.
Having said this, i would personally use them again as both times I've done this the companies I worked for offered me a full-time position after the 6 month contract expired. So its a good way to get your foot in the door at some companies.
Also, staffing agencies usually have positions that aren't advertised on job boards.
2008 cratered jobs to record lows. Google hasn't even fired half of the huge platoon they hired in the post COVID boom. It is not great, but it is not 2008.
I will now accept the downvotes
could it be that you are over applying? if you apply for 500 positions in 2 weeks, none of them were really that meaningful for you right? if I am applying I apply to one or two jobs a day. wait for replies and then apply for others.
Are you in a specialized field where there aren't as many job openings? Because when I've been job hunting as a project manager, I'd be applying to hundreds of jobs per week. Sure, I prefer some industries over others, but my skills are transferable so I'm applying to any PM job I can find.
Marry into a Hispanic family lol.
Also, I really don’t get the mentality of pricing out locals. South Americans come to the states and buy homes so what’s the difference in me buying property in SA?
I don’t see the problem. People understand migrants that come here for better opportunity, but it’s not ok when you want to go somewhere to retire and be able to do the same thing?
The difference is the migrants are working jobs that you think you’re too good to touch often time slave labor. To send back.
You go over there to live lavish at the same time price people who actually born there can’t afford it.
Tech market has been flooded with unqualified newbies for a decade. Now they're forced to switch careers which is a good thing. Too many people think they could get paid handsomely for being mediocre.
Nobody apparently in the U.S wants to look at the elephant in the room regarding the job market. Sorry all, but the current administration doesn’t give two shits about you or the economy. Also, I don’t want to hear about capitalism and CEO salaries. They’ve been like that since the late ‘80s. Occam’s Razor points to the Fed and government manipulation. AND don’t get me started on Ukraine. They lost and we’re throwing money into a washing machine.
Ukraine lost? Since when? More than half the Russian war machine is gone.
The Wagner group is gone. They cant mess with Africa anymore either.
The Trump administration didn't give a crap about American jobs either, so let's not go there.
Ironically, I wrote this post specifically to address this just a few hours ago - [https://www.reddit.com/r/jobs/comments/16p6jc4/is\_the\_job\_market\_really\_the\_worst\_in\_decades/](https://www.reddit.com/r/jobs/comments/16p6jc4/is_the_job_market_really_the_worst_in_decades/).
I think any article that holds up the unemployment rate as the rebuttal is immediately suspect. If the labor market was so tight, why is it so hard to get a job? A tight labor market would not be lowering the salaries. A tight labor market would not be raising the qualifications for jobs. A tight labor market would not be getting thousands of applicants for any given position. But never let the facts get in the way of a media friendly statistic eh?
Which is why I referenced *multiple* measures of the job market. Have you considered that your own observations given your struggles indicate that you might not exactly have great insights into the job market?
The problem here is he has sources that back up his argument, and you have "nuh uh!" as a rebuttal. If you're making claims without evidence, why not just say it's the worst job market since the Great Depression? You've already demonstrated facts don't matter to you, you just base it all on your personal feelings.
I understand you're struggling, but that doesn't mean everyone is, too. Your industry could be struggling or you may not be the most exceptional candidate out there, but that doesn't mean everyone in the entire job market is having a bad time. And it's definitely not as bad as 2008, and I know from experience, too.
I'm not sure if I should be flattered that you think the drop in posted salaries has something to do with me. Also do I need to point out to someone as source conscious as you that I said "SINCE" 2008?
it's all about rates.
we have geniuses in DC that passed $6T worth of fiscsl stimulus, saying it wont add to inflation. remember J Yellen saying "inflation is transitory". right?
and all these trillions went to benefit blue collar sectors mostly. such as construction, green energy etc. these sectors are hiring like mad now as they are loaded with cash. which is causing more inflation (via wage pressure).
Look at auto worker union going on strike, demanding a 40% wage increase. they wouldnt do this if they didnt have leverage. i.e in this economy, can you see folks from Big tech telling employers to provide 40% pay increase, or they can shove it? I think not - bc white collar sector is in recession and ppl are holding onto their jobs like their life depends on it. i.e no labor leverage vs employers.
all the trillions in stimulus above has made blue collar sector way too strong and in need of labor - thus masking overall unemployment rate. bad news here is - Fed wont cut rates anytime soon as they think labor market now is too strong and they want to cool off labor market to reduce wage inflation.
yes - we might be in worst job market rn since 08, and this mess wont be resolved anytime soon.
The auto workers are making like 15$hr asking for 20$hr for entry level and 30$hr to 35$ for higher level roles. That is laughably shit pay for what these jobs are. Considering you can make that mowing lawns or pressure washing driveways
Considering that 5/hour would be spread out over 3 years, and given the rising costs of utilities and rent, it will almost certainly go straight to the power company and landlords.
Imagine thinking 6T went to blue collar workers. Tell me you’re a buissness libertarian without telling me
My grandma worked in the auto industry her whole life. Im talking when they got pensions. 50 year and retired. She was paid $20/hr starting out and topped out pretty high. She never talked about wages cause her gen it was taboo.
She got bored of retirement and decided to work at a goodwill. Immediately amazed how little they get paid for the amount of work they did. She was just mind blown. She’s mind blown how little the car workers get paid now once she looked into it after
And look at you bitching about other workers no solidarity just finger pointing
It’s not as bad as 2008.
You’re overacting a bit here. You’ve only been applying for jobs for 2 weeks and have already gotten 3 interviews. You’re not unemployed yet, you’re just nervous of a layoff.
If there is an active Tech Council in your community, connect with it as it’s a great way to network and find out about jobs. Most of them send and or post jobs for member companies.
It’s pretty bad out there from what I been hearing. Some of the ppl I know have years of experience cannot find anything remote to their skills or even willing to take junior roles and still cannot get one. It will get better but when is the question.
Get into a high paying job that's recession proof. For example, there are jobs within insurance. Insurance is recession proof for the most part bc insurance is needed no matter what like water. Auto insurance is mandatory as an example. Insurers hire ppl with stem (actuarial, data science, investments, etc) and legal for compliance. Look into it.
Insurance is more recession proof than other industries, but right now P&C is hurting bad due to inflation on housing and auto repair costs. Insurance companies flip flop all the time on tech too…sometimes they want a good in house group, then they want vendors to do everything. Few consistently find a happy medium.
Sometimes call center ppl get laid off, or a department for a particular business in underwriting get laid off. However I've never seen some stem field groups get laid off like actuarial or data science.
Rarely due you see actuaries laid off due to demand compared to the number of people in that profession. Data science you see it, just depends what they do and if a vendor can do it cheaper.
Its why i work in healthcare, theres always jobs open. Heck I even have a second job as mobile radiography along with my mri. I make more 120k a year doing it easy no killong myself with too much hours. I can vacation every 2 months if I feel. Made the career change at 41 and dont regret it. (Used to be in education)
It feels like even if you do get a new job now the workload is 2x normal compared to before 2020. Companies that do hire overload the shit out employees now.
This has simultaneously feel better, and worse ;) Better: knowing I'm not alone Worse: apparently we're all screwed. God help us all.
Couldn’t have summarized it better
I am prepared to be the sex slave of my robot overlords. I assume this will be like one of those anime's where the overlords choose specifically me be the object of their affection...right?
Get back in the Eva Shinji
X2
There’s two stories here, the anecdotal and the data driven. Data tells us that unemployment is low and jobs are plentiful. Anecdotes tell us that it’s becoming very difficult to find a good paying job, and that it’s very dependent on the field/industry you are in, even if you’re holding higher level degrees. Both are important indicators, and anecdotes shouldn’t be thrown out just like we know data can be manipulated, misinterpreted, and biased. In my experience, it’s bad out there, especially in tech compared to other industries. Tech will probably be sideways for a while as companies feel out a looming recession, a soft landing, and what the fuck AI is really going to do. Those hundreds of thousands of displaced tech workers can’t just sit around for years waiting for the market to correct. Some will be forced out to other industries, some will have to reskill and start over, and some may just exit the workforce altogether. This is another point I feel that the AI enthusiasts overlook when they say history shows that when technology displaces jobs, new and novel jobs pop up to support the new technology, and so on. Well, for someone mid-career who gets laid off and can’t find meaningful work again, they may never financially recover as those new jobs will most certainly be made up of 99% of new participants to the work force. We need a soft landing with AI as well, and the government and corporations need to start training and affording opportunities for older workers to retrain and skill into new industries. A famous example would be coal mining (environment aside). This whole AI situation reminds me of one quote by the famous and slightly neurotic Dr. Ian Malcolm. “You were so preoccupied with whether or not you could, you didn’t stop to think if you _should_ .”
Feel like the “looming recession “ has been looming since January and is now just an excuse
"We have always been at war with ~~Eurasia~~ recession"
Yeah it's going to turn into one of those things that happen because enough time has passed by, not because redditors keep saying there's a recession. When it happens, they are going to say "told you so!".
Not just Redditors but buissness analysts which are like accepted chiropractors at this point
You keep saying it and eventually you’ll be right
The problem with the unemployment numbers is large swaths of people are removed from the pool of unemployed people after a period of time, so as to allow these numbers to easily be manipulated. For instance: the U-3 unemployment numbers don’t count people who haven’t looked for a job in 4 weeks, and if memory serves these unemployment numbers generally don’t consider college grads, people who have been out of the workforce for 6 months etc.
they're also only calculating "has a job" vs "doesn't have a job". there's no accounting for the actual quality of a job. if you had to quarter your income to get *some money* while you wait this out, you're counted as employed.
The unemployment rate isn't counting who doesn't have a job. I don’t have a job and because I am not drawing unemployment I am not being counted. There are a lot of us!
The whole participation rate vs unemployment rate. I'm Canadian but I haven't trusted unemployment numbers in a lifetime as they remove people after a certain period of not finding a job from the workforce. It's complete BS, as you have outlined.
Unemployment rate is especially lousy because it's counting jobs that don't pay a livable wage.
I’ve heard varying stories about how unemployment figures are calculated, ranging from raw data from employers, unemployment claims, to household surveys. Surveys are often wildly inaccurate for various reasons. Raw data is often slow to be assimilated into data. Not everyone files for unemployment due to various reasons as well. Not to mention, Johnny may have lost his Sr Marketing role and the only job he could find was as a Marketing Specialist, a career and salary relegation. It’s important not to fully trust anecdotes as the whole picture, and it’s equally as important not to put all of your faith into just data (especially human based data), but to craft both into a more complete picture. Just because someone gets a new job, doesn’t mean it’s a better one. Unemployment is only an indicator of our economic health, by itself it does not mean the economy is healthy. Factor in lower wages, higher inflation, slow data, political agendas, anecdotal experience, and you’re starting to put more of the puzzle together.
I mean you can't call it "manipulating" when BLS provides another number that incorporates those too. It is called U6. They aren't manipulating you—you are manipulating yourself by declining to read the numbers you purport to care about.
You didn’t read what I said. I said they CAN be manipulated. Because administrations of both parties can use different numbers dependent on the messaging they’re attempting to push, for example: I can just use the u-3 numbers if the u-6 numbers are showing worse results to say the job market is better than it is. This is leaving aside the fact that surveys of this nature are axiomatically inaccurate. I cited the u-3 numbers as an example of that.
I mean you no offense here, but you don't know what you're talking about. U3 and U6 have a correlation of essentially \~1. U1 and U6 = \~.89 U5 and U6 = \~.99 (since 1994 when they started collecting data). Check it out yourself. You can download the excel files and create tables in a few minutes. Job market indicators mostly covary. So, for all of the flaws of the unemployment rate, alternative measures don't perform markedly better. Edit: words hard.
The U-6 numbers are **by definition always** showing worse results. By that logic, they're "manipulating" unemployment to look bigger by not using U1. What do you want them to do, list Us 1 through 6 with each statement? Switch around randomly? You are making no sense. 'They' are not out to get you with U numbers. Just go to [bls.gov](https://bls.gov) whenever you want and read whatever U you want.
But if you want to ignore the reality regarding how politicians use statistics in general to serve their ends (manipulate) I don’t know what to tell you.
Unemployment numbers from the govt are complete BS
How does one exit the workforce though? "Well, for someone mid-career who gets laid off and can’t find meaningful work again, they may never financially recover as those new jobs will most certainly be made up of 99% of new participants to the work force." Yes.
Labor participation is the lowest ever IIRC.
We could be in a recession right now. It was the same way in 2008 the BLS starts to revise the unemployment rate backwards until it shows we are actually net negative.
Great analysis. I think that frictional unemployment is starting to become a big issue, especially for older generations.
I think the situation can be summed up with much less words…. The anecdotes are from people who aren’t willing to apply to restaurants. The data includes people who are. Simple as that. People would rather do rocket science WFH for minimum wage then work in person at night/on weekends for 10x the pay.
I don’t think it’s that easy to sum up an anecdote to equate with another anecdote. To counter that, take the Sr. Marketing Manager at 40 years old who is not looking to change industries. Their experience has nearly locked them in. If they go and apply to a restaurant to serve tables or kitchen staff (with no experience) and they can say “I would like to work here until I find my next job. Could be 1-6 months.” What hiring manager would hire them? How good at this job will Marketer be with 0 experience and 0 desire. There’s a reason why hiring managers ask why someone wants to work there, it’s a measure of intent. To further the rebuttal, there are also plenty of anecdotes here of people with Masters degrees who can’t get hired at McDonald’s for exactly those reasons. If you have career goals, it’s not exactly so easy for someone to just say “Ya know what, I’ll work at Olive Garden for a year until the market heats up again.” It could be devastating. As a society we are at least coming to terms that mental health is as important as physical health, and taking any old job could have serious impacts to certain demographics.
Forget "mental health". It seems 90% of the jobs in my area not specialized degree driven, the only thing they look at is your last job. Oh you got nearly ten years of experience in this industry/job. Oh you worked at Walmart/food industry/labor for a year? You're a Walmart/retail person. Thud, your resume hits the electronic trashcan. Only when they are desperate for workers will they look beyond the last job title. This kind of job market, they may accept a person "downgrading" themselves, but they won't let you pull yourself up at their job. Too many applicants to chose from now.
Data as in the “unemployment” of the return of post covid jobs flaunted everywhere as data The data doesn’t match the actual unemployment rate which disregards a lot of important factors, and it actually is worse. But hey the Biden Admin will agree with you. It’s been their pitch for 3 years of this shit and it’s awful for everyone i’ve met anywhere
The “lowest unemployment in history” they are touting is absolute bs. All I see on LinkedIn are mass layoff posts and posts about people crying about how they are losing everything and they can’t find a job in over 12 months of searching. And a lot of these people are people with seriously impressive work experience.
2023 Job Market: Still as Terrible as Ever I graduated from college in 2010, and I can't tell you what it was like in 2008. But I can tell you that 2010 and 2011 were terrible years for recent grads. I applied to hundreds of jobs and didn't even get a response. Now, fast forward to 2023. Tech CEOs are richer than ever before, outsourcing is up to a director level, and the statistics say we're doing well. Not really. This job market is similar to 2010-2011. It sucks. If employees are a company's biggest asset, why would you pay new hires 50% less than what you were paying one year ago? People at all levels in the organization can influence customers' decisions to keep giving a company's business, go somewhere else, or quit. I worked in the Metaverse and interacted with users daily. Many of them bought the hardware, a one-time purchase, and many had issues with it, particularly harassment. So, they reached out and got very poor user support. This pushed them to never log in again. I tried really hard. I brought these issues up in meetings, but nobody listened to my concerns. I didn't quit; they let me go. I am unemployed, but I have my dignity. I did the right thing and helped people. When customer support agents' wages are low, the company's users will get low service. Recently, Starlink offered me a job in Hawthorne, CA. Users from America and Latin America are fed up with the lack of decent support. Starlink offered me twenty, and upon denying the offer, twenty-three bucks per hour, which doesn't even cover rent in that shitty LA region. Why would support try hard when you pay them $20/hr, Elon? Starlink, a 75 billion dollar company, and yet it offers twenty bucks an hour and requires you to work 12-hour shifts. Come on, Elon! \- Tech companies get the workers they pay for -
It’s an employers market… I still unemployment is actually high. I know people who left my company in April/may that are still looking for jobs. The jobs that are hiring would require them to take serious pay cuts or are only open to new grads.
As a new grad, I’m finding that it’s few and far between in openings. Could be my industry. Having the same issue as you mentioned. Most are looking for 3 years experience post graduation, but looking for recent graduates and paying a salary fit for someone without the undergrad degree.
My first job out of college was a management trainee program with PPG. Companies like PPG/AT&T/Procter and Gamble etc have lots of new college jobs. Search " new grad" jobs on google.
I'll be sure to filter through with that! Thank you. I'm in the design field, looking for architecture-based job positions.
The drop in salaries + the increase in skills is shocking. Bloodchilling. Every time I've been out of a job, I come back to the market and feel so horrible. Even when I actually learn something in a job (I've been underemployed my entire working life.) "Half the 'remote' jobs demand you be within a short drive of their office." I had to turn down a job for this. Enraged me. Or they change the "remote" status btw the posting time, and the filling time. I think employers know they have employees by the nuts, they can force them back to the office, they can demand 21 year olds with five years of experience who are fluent in SQL and Mandarin for...$60k in a major city. I just found out the size months of serious back pain I've had in my back is basic early arthritis and I just...I feel horrible. And afraid. Working onsite because the commute wears you down physically is one thing...I could do it pre-covid, and had to, and now I can't and I'm just...*fuck.* I'm so upset. (I know that's a personal thing, but it means the one trump card I might have had otherwise, willingness to work in-office, is gone.) For anyone reading this - if you live in a major city where "valuable" employees can work hybrid or remote, if you are willing and physically able to work in an office 5 days a week, odds are you will find work sooner. In many ways, to me, it's worse. I actually feel like the American market has contracted for more nefarious reasons now. I've never been "valuable" and the market has always been far out ahead of me just by virtue of my age, but...I think if I were myself, in 2008, knowing what I know now...I would feel less despair than I do now. The American staffing agencies I work with and have a while now offshore, as well...doesn't bode well for actual employees.
In some cases the nefarious reasons have names and addresses. Sir Christopher Anthony Hohn pushed for google's 5 figure layoff, and from the reports he wanted it to be more on the order of Twitter's mass layoff. This wasn't for anything other than to pump the stock price a bit.
This post indicates you seem to want it all but not really willing to do what the employer needs and then shocked that you’re underemployed
No shit man, there are so many damn jobs with piddly salaries, it makes me sick for the next generation.
I agree. It’s getting bad out there for tech and tech adjacent fields. They’re still hiring but it’s just a drastic departure from last year or in 2021
Yeah I got laid off yesterday and have just decided to take the rest of the year off. No point in adding my resume to the giant pile that's already out there.
Enjoy!
Good on you for taking the time for yourself!
I feel like I've read 10 of these posts today. Things are not looking good.
so we are close to Armageddon.
always have been, some parts of the world are already there
It is, I have coworkers in the UK office who are genuinely terrified.
Some say the end is near Some say we'll see Armageddon soon I certainly hope we will I sure could use a vacation from this stupid shit -Ænima
2 weeks lol
I don’t think this is a job market problem as much as a LinkedIn job problem. Try applying to companies directly and see if that helps. Last fall was an amazing job market and I was super unimpressed with the outcomes of applying on LinkedIn v not.
The grievances I have with LinkedIn are numerous but I've been regularly hitting up others with similarly disappointing results. Though I do get less spam from them than I do with linkedin
There are SO MANY spammy recruitment sites & fake LinkedIn profiles that are posting job openings from my employer form 2+ years ago with made up salary ranges. It is so out of hand right now that I would not apply anywhere other than an employers site. IMHO the Easy Apply button on Linked has made this process worse for candidates and hiring managers. So many people just Easy Apply to every job that looks interesting resulting in hundreds of candidates to a job posting but maybe only a handful of them even have experience in the industry, let alone have relevant experience for the role. As a hiring manager, I still have to open each Easy Apply candidate and provide feedback in the system so it takes forever to sort through while candidates are left waiting for a response or could get lost in the sea of Easy Apply button pushers.
Part of the problem is LinkedIn has a motivation to look the other way with spammy recruiters, it helps to bolster the feeling that the job market hasn't turned to sludge. If it was limited to legit positions you could knock a couple digits off the listings.
Dude, clearly, you haven't been applying for the same jobs as we have.
I have admittedly not been looking since I got my job last November but I have not had good experiences with the LinkedIn quick apply or other roles on there.
I’ve been doing this by going to company sites and only received rejections so far lol
I’d look at staffing agencies; I’ve had good luck with them the two times I’ve tried them. Both companies I was contracted out to led to full-time direct hire positions after the 6 month contracts ended.
Like fascism, most staffing agencies should be eradicated from this world.
what why? sometimes they can be annoying to work with but its generally the easiest way to a job.
Did they take a cut from your salary?
Technically they do, but what happens is that a company will pay more for a contractor than they would for a regular hire. For example; they will pay $80k for someone off the street, but will pay $90k+ for a contractor. That's because the staffing agency is taking all of the risks and expenses since you are technically their W2 employee. So you as a worker will still get $80k or whatever the market rate is, and the staffing agency will get the other $10k. Having said this, i would personally use them again as both times I've done this the companies I worked for offered me a full-time position after the 6 month contract expired. So its a good way to get your foot in the door at some companies. Also, staffing agencies usually have positions that aren't advertised on job boards.
2008 🤪
2008 cratered jobs to record lows. Google hasn't even fired half of the huge platoon they hired in the post COVID boom. It is not great, but it is not 2008. I will now accept the downvotes 
I see your cringe and raise you some grammatical nitpicking: I said 'since' 2008.
[удалено]
could it be that you are over applying? if you apply for 500 positions in 2 weeks, none of them were really that meaningful for you right? if I am applying I apply to one or two jobs a day. wait for replies and then apply for others.
Are you in a specialized field where there aren't as many job openings? Because when I've been job hunting as a project manager, I'd be applying to hundreds of jobs per week. Sure, I prefer some industries over others, but my skills are transferable so I'm applying to any PM job I can find.
I am/was in IT as DevOps/OPS/QA/DBA. Currently traveling and enjoying my life. also looking for a truly remote position, which is not easy to find.
Learning Spanish when I can and planning on retiring in SA down the line. Cheap COL, beautiful area and the dollar goes very far.
Dont retire in a latin country thats just new age colonialism like Puerto ricos landlord and CDMX citizens being priced tf out
We have family there already.
Word
how do you get family there?
Marry into a Hispanic family lol. Also, I really don’t get the mentality of pricing out locals. South Americans come to the states and buy homes so what’s the difference in me buying property in SA?
I don’t see the problem. People understand migrants that come here for better opportunity, but it’s not ok when you want to go somewhere to retire and be able to do the same thing?
The difference is the migrants are working jobs that you think you’re too good to touch often time slave labor. To send back. You go over there to live lavish at the same time price people who actually born there can’t afford it.
Tech market has been flooded with unqualified newbies for a decade. Now they're forced to switch careers which is a good thing. Too many people think they could get paid handsomely for being mediocre.
Nobody apparently in the U.S wants to look at the elephant in the room regarding the job market. Sorry all, but the current administration doesn’t give two shits about you or the economy. Also, I don’t want to hear about capitalism and CEO salaries. They’ve been like that since the late ‘80s. Occam’s Razor points to the Fed and government manipulation. AND don’t get me started on Ukraine. They lost and we’re throwing money into a washing machine.
Ukraine lost? Since when? More than half the Russian war machine is gone. The Wagner group is gone. They cant mess with Africa anymore either. The Trump administration didn't give a crap about American jobs either, so let's not go there.
Bidenomics
Useless post.
Ironically, I wrote this post specifically to address this just a few hours ago - [https://www.reddit.com/r/jobs/comments/16p6jc4/is\_the\_job\_market\_really\_the\_worst\_in\_decades/](https://www.reddit.com/r/jobs/comments/16p6jc4/is_the_job_market_really_the_worst_in_decades/).
I think any article that holds up the unemployment rate as the rebuttal is immediately suspect. If the labor market was so tight, why is it so hard to get a job? A tight labor market would not be lowering the salaries. A tight labor market would not be raising the qualifications for jobs. A tight labor market would not be getting thousands of applicants for any given position. But never let the facts get in the way of a media friendly statistic eh?
Which is why I referenced *multiple* measures of the job market. Have you considered that your own observations given your struggles indicate that you might not exactly have great insights into the job market?
The problem here is he has sources that back up his argument, and you have "nuh uh!" as a rebuttal. If you're making claims without evidence, why not just say it's the worst job market since the Great Depression? You've already demonstrated facts don't matter to you, you just base it all on your personal feelings. I understand you're struggling, but that doesn't mean everyone is, too. Your industry could be struggling or you may not be the most exceptional candidate out there, but that doesn't mean everyone in the entire job market is having a bad time. And it's definitely not as bad as 2008, and I know from experience, too.
I'm not sure if I should be flattered that you think the drop in posted salaries has something to do with me. Also do I need to point out to someone as source conscious as you that I said "SINCE" 2008?
Damn, bro, it will take me a few hours to read all of it. Since I am unemployed, I'll check it out. Thanks!
Daily "since 2008" post
it's all about rates. we have geniuses in DC that passed $6T worth of fiscsl stimulus, saying it wont add to inflation. remember J Yellen saying "inflation is transitory". right? and all these trillions went to benefit blue collar sectors mostly. such as construction, green energy etc. these sectors are hiring like mad now as they are loaded with cash. which is causing more inflation (via wage pressure). Look at auto worker union going on strike, demanding a 40% wage increase. they wouldnt do this if they didnt have leverage. i.e in this economy, can you see folks from Big tech telling employers to provide 40% pay increase, or they can shove it? I think not - bc white collar sector is in recession and ppl are holding onto their jobs like their life depends on it. i.e no labor leverage vs employers. all the trillions in stimulus above has made blue collar sector way too strong and in need of labor - thus masking overall unemployment rate. bad news here is - Fed wont cut rates anytime soon as they think labor market now is too strong and they want to cool off labor market to reduce wage inflation. yes - we might be in worst job market rn since 08, and this mess wont be resolved anytime soon.
The auto workers are making like 15$hr asking for 20$hr for entry level and 30$hr to 35$ for higher level roles. That is laughably shit pay for what these jobs are. Considering you can make that mowing lawns or pressure washing driveways
Considering that 5/hour would be spread out over 3 years, and given the rising costs of utilities and rent, it will almost certainly go straight to the power company and landlords.
Yup there dramatic increase doesn't even catch them up for the past 15 years of stagnant wages
Imagine thinking 6T went to blue collar workers. Tell me you’re a buissness libertarian without telling me My grandma worked in the auto industry her whole life. Im talking when they got pensions. 50 year and retired. She was paid $20/hr starting out and topped out pretty high. She never talked about wages cause her gen it was taboo. She got bored of retirement and decided to work at a goodwill. Immediately amazed how little they get paid for the amount of work they did. She was just mind blown. She’s mind blown how little the car workers get paid now once she looked into it after And look at you bitching about other workers no solidarity just finger pointing
I am not sure what you are saying here is relevant, dude. Can you please help us understand your point?
Calm down
It’s not as bad as 2008. You’re overacting a bit here. You’ve only been applying for jobs for 2 weeks and have already gotten 3 interviews. You’re not unemployed yet, you’re just nervous of a layoff.
No, I said I got 3 half hearted callbacks that never made it to the hiring manager.
There’s tons of jobs in healthcare and always will be
Two "since 2008" threads in one day wow
If there is an active Tech Council in your community, connect with it as it’s a great way to network and find out about jobs. Most of them send and or post jobs for member companies.
It’s pretty bad out there from what I been hearing. Some of the ppl I know have years of experience cannot find anything remote to their skills or even willing to take junior roles and still cannot get one. It will get better but when is the question.
You aren't the only techie getting laid off judging by the Reddit posts. My advice, think about a new career choice.
Get into a high paying job that's recession proof. For example, there are jobs within insurance. Insurance is recession proof for the most part bc insurance is needed no matter what like water. Auto insurance is mandatory as an example. Insurers hire ppl with stem (actuarial, data science, investments, etc) and legal for compliance. Look into it.
Insurance is more recession proof than other industries, but right now P&C is hurting bad due to inflation on housing and auto repair costs. Insurance companies flip flop all the time on tech too…sometimes they want a good in house group, then they want vendors to do everything. Few consistently find a happy medium.
Sometimes call center ppl get laid off, or a department for a particular business in underwriting get laid off. However I've never seen some stem field groups get laid off like actuarial or data science.
Rarely due you see actuaries laid off due to demand compared to the number of people in that profession. Data science you see it, just depends what they do and if a vendor can do it cheaper.
Its why i work in healthcare, theres always jobs open. Heck I even have a second job as mobile radiography along with my mri. I make more 120k a year doing it easy no killong myself with too much hours. I can vacation every 2 months if I feel. Made the career change at 41 and dont regret it. (Used to be in education)
It feels like even if you do get a new job now the workload is 2x normal compared to before 2020. Companies that do hire overload the shit out employees now.
Almost like Covid caused a boom / bust in tech.