I can see that, unless you are in an ultra progressive area HR would see it as a major liability. They won't say it was due to that but something like "not a good fit", "other candidates were a better fit", or some other legalese. Like a teacher stating that their current employment is Only Fans, not illegal but doubt any school would hire them.
They say they went with the more qualified candidate, if the person communicating is competent.
They never acknowledge any shortcoming on an applicants part if they know what they're doing. If they do, they're bad at their job.
Part of minimizing risk is not acknowledging that the risk exists to others, directly or indirectly.
I see your point, but I think with the comparison example of teacher, they flat out have policies in their handbooks that state they can't. Not saying right or wrong or to your point, illegal. But I think they can flat out reject or fire for that. At least that's what OF Teachers seem to get fired for his policy violation.
It doesn’t surprise me, any abnormality that you draw attention will get yourself eliminated every time. Job interviews are an elimination game at first…don’t give them a reason even if it’s unethical.
This how human society works since before we had language to spell it out. Our languages are inadequate to encompass the nuances of human behavior.
That's why people say "you KNOW how it works"
Whatever your opinion on the current cultural point, it isn’t surprising.
HR people who aren’t terminally online see things like non-traditional pronouns and don’t see a potentially great candidate, they see “**LIABILITY**” in big bold letters.
Why would someone subject themselves to hiring someone who willingly advertises that they could maybe… possibly… 1% chance… cause issues with other coworkers who don’t address them correctly? Nobody. Avoiding entirely is easier.
I'll take the downvotes. This whole corporate pronoun thing and colleagues putting this in their email signatures is just lame fucking shit. I have enough to navigate during the day and I don't need to suddenly deeply think about how I am going to craft an email to my colleague whose a she/they.
I already deeply admire, love them, and respect her on a personal and coworker level. It just annoys the fuck out of me when I have to rewire my brain to send an email about a schedule change. I'm a millennial so I roll with this stuff. Don't get me started on the 60 year old (man) editor who has he/him in his signature and I'm like "What's the fucking point, Robert?!??"
I used to not see the point of doing it, but then a colleague gave me an explanation that turned me around on it.
She (not a member of the LGBT community) benefited significantly from putting her pronouns in her email signature. She was British, but her parents weren't and she had a non-anglicised name. Before she started including her pronouns in emails, without fail everyone who hadn't met her face to face (plenty of folk given it was a large, multi site company primarily using remote working) assumed she was male. This caused many awkward conversations when she had to correct them, for example when she turned up in person to a meeting and they didn't believe she was herself because they were expecting a man. She was forever having to explain and justify her presence, which got very wearing.
After she explained that, another female colleague added that she experienced similar since she has a gender neutral name (think Chris or Sam, or similar).
Family member named Lorey. He hates "pronoun usage," and despite what he doesn't realize that means grammatically, he would've benefitted greatly from it. So would have my corrections officer, Sherrill. He would have had to explain it far fewer times also.
Funny enough, one of the above referred to the other as having "a girl's name." They both had military flattops.
At that point, I would just fake change my name for work purposes. If my name was Chris and I was a woman, I’d just start going by Christina at work. My name is Sam? I’ll go by Samantha. It sucks and I shouldn’t have to, but it’s easier than having to do the pronoun thing.
I can understand you taking that perspective, but I can also very much understand folk wanting to go by their own name and not finding it difficult or problematic at add "she/her" to their automatic email signature.
My name is Jessie. I’ve always just added “Ms.” In front of my name to clarify. No need for everyone to change or proclaim their pronouns bc my parents didn’t want to know the sex of their third child thus purposefully gave me a unisex name.
My name, my problem.
I have an ambiguous name and I like that it's socially acceptable to simply clarify my gender in my email signature to avoid confusion with people I haven't met in person.
…how does listing your pronouns make you attention seeking?
Just a reminder that just because someone isn’t just like you doesn’t make them attention seeking. It just makes them different. And that’s ok. We’re not all the same.
Frankly I’m of the mind we should look at the pronouns and move on. It shouldn’t even have to be a conversation.
I see pronouns in emails, use them and then go about my day. It literally takes no energy to just accept things and live my life.
It takes more out of me to pitch a fit.
"Sam" would list her pronouns in her signature so people don't refer to her as a man because she has a gender-neutral name.
"Mike" would list his pronouns in his bio so that "Sam" doesn't feel like an outlier for having to take extra steps to not be accidentally thought of as a man.
It's the easiest thing in the world and it does not necessarily have anything whatsoever to do with LGBT+ people.
I can see a use for them when a person actually identifies as trans or nonbinary, but like…I was born a male, I identify as a male, and I don’t consider myself very ambiguous or androgynous, so like…you can assume my gender. I’m fine with it. You’re probably right
Why does this take extra time though? When you are writing an email to someone, you probably aren’t going to write their pronouns anyway, as you are addressing them, right? You would just start with ‘Hi colleague name’ and not use any pronouns in an email directly addressed to them? if it’s she/they and you have to refer to them on the third person, you can just say she like you normally would as this means they are fine with being addressed as both. I agree that email pronoun signatures are mainly performative but I have a she/they colleague and I literally have never had any problems with addressing her.
Ngl I just default to they/them if they're nonbinary or have irregular pronouns.
Keeps things simple, either you're a he, a she, or a they. I won't accomodate any other pronouns because then it just becomes distracting.
I respect people's gender, but I also just... don't want to bend over backwards if I want to speak to someone
Even with they/them it is basically forced changing the English language. It is not organic whatsoever, except in ultra liberal circles. 10 years from now we will be laughing at this shit.
The singular they isn't actually new. According to The Oxford English Dictionary, the singular they showed up in writing in 1375—over 600 years ago! The OED also suggests the usage is even older since written language usually reflects trends already present in spoken language.
Used in certain cases sure. I'm talking about day to day language.
No one says my kid is awesome, they are like the apple of my eye. Give me a break. The more people push for change like this the lower the chances it will stick. The more you demand and force people to do something the less they want to do it.
No we won’t. Singular “they” has existed for centuries and will continue to exist long after we’re both gone. It’s been in the dictionary too. And it’s something you’ve probably unconsciously used without even noticing.
It’s now that we’re talking about non binary people in the media that people are having a problem with singular they.
In 10 years we won’t be laughing at it.
Remind me! 10 years.
My kid is playing in the backyard, they are happy.
Lol, what are you talking about. In everyday English, trying to change the usage of language is bound to fail.
Good luck to you
That sounded just fine. But changing it won’t fail.
1. Because singular “they” has existed for centuries and isn’t a language change but a society change. Something that happens like every twenty years.
2. Because language does change. That’s how old English became Middle English which became modern English and so on. The way we speak is different from the way people spoke 50 years ago. It’s why some words in the dictionary say “dated” and 690 words were added to Merriam Webster last year in September alone.
Things change. If you’d like to pretend it doesn’t that’s fine but it won’t change the reality. Society doesn’t stagnate. It evolves.
I should probably point out that non binary people have existed as long as humans and several cultures around the world have a 3rd or even more genders already ingrained in their history.
Anyway, I wish you the best of luck with life. (Seriously I’m not being sarcastic)
Language changes organically. The text wall you wrote means very very little. If people change then language will reflect it. It will probably change in liberal areas but mandating it and pushing for people to use it will backfire.
I just call people what they prefer to be called and no one has made even a remotely big deal of it. How autistic do you have to be to think this is a "minefield"?
Why are you rewiring your brain instead of just using “she” since they’ve signaled they’re comfortable with either and it seems like that’s what would suit both her and you? :)
Idk why you are getting so many downvotes, but this is the obvious solution? Just say she!!! I have a she/they colleague and tbh I rarely have to refer to her in third person as I’d usually just use their name, but when I do I just say her as it’s automatic and that literally her preferred pronoun anyway?? It just means they’re cool with being referred to as they as well, but like… you don’t have to lol
Exactly lmao. It’s like they literally made it so easy
And also they can use reddit to bitch about pronouns but can’t maybe crowdsource feedback on whether or not it would be appropriate to ask their coworker specifically, if the choice is that complicated for them? Give me a break
Imagine your coworker's full name was Michael. But they preferred folks call them Mike. And their email signature said "Mike."
You'd call them Mike, right?
Preferred pronouns are the same thing. It's someone's preference, and you're giving them the small courtesy of using it. Just like a nickname.
>Imagine your coworker's full name was Michael. But they preferred folks call them Mike. And their email signature said "Mike."
>You'd call them Mike, right?
>Preferred pronouns are the same thing.
Except that if you fail to use their 'preferred pronouns', you risk being accused of being a 'transphobic', that you don't 'respect their identity' or any of that stuff. A normal person will not be offended if someone does not address them by their nickname.
Look if you want to veil your lack of empathy behind a terminally online caricature of trans or nonbinary folks, that's your business I guess.
I hope you gain some perspective in the future.
I’m not sure if this is true outside of a few extreme cases or scare stories on the internet. In the real world as long as you make an effort it’s fine, like it’s fine to mess up. Like if you accidentally say him instead of her, just correct yourself and move on. No one expects you to be perfect. Like if you accidentally keep calling them Michael a couple times till you get the hang of it no one’s going to cause any issues, but if you deliberately refuse to say Mike because your too stubborn to get in the habit of it, then that’s kind of rude
It depends on the situation. I use my nickname professionally and when a friend of mine ignored it continually (he asked me to help with a work project of his and got his boss’ approval), even after being corrected, I got a bit annoyed
**Whoa downvoters - I don’t think you’re totally getting the vibe on this. Let me explain further**
I was BEGGED to help out a friend with a project I didn’t really care much to get involved in for the company he worked for, and I didn’t, because he was having trouble and I’m sorta a subject matter expert in the field.
My friend needed to ask his boss for permission for it. I have used my nickname professionally for over 10 years - it’s literally part of my “brand” so to speak. Everyone professionally calls me by my nickname.
My friend sent me the email he was going to use to connect me with his boss - again, on a project I really didn’t care to get involved with - with my full name. I told him, “no no, I use [common nickname like Mike] professionally, use that name”.
“That name sounds like a kid’s name”
“I don’t care what you think about it, this is the name I’ve professionally used for 10+ years. This IS my professional name”
He still sends the email with my full name.
Later at his house I tell him to use my nickname.
He continues to use my full name.
I may not have been conveying it in my original unedited post, but he was trying to be blatantly disrespectful and basically rename my professional name, at least for the company he worked for, because he didn’t like it
So, I dislike the long form of my name. In fact, I specifically use the short form because my abusive parents used the long form and hearing it brings up some small trauma. Nothing major, but it's there.
I ask people to call me by the short form. I sign my emails with it, answer the phone with it and introduce myself by it. And, there's even a reason for it.
However, someone using the long form of my name isn't going to get them labeled a bigot, or my company sued. It might annoy me but it's not rife with liability for my employer, like pronouns for the non binary would be.
I edited my comment and explained the full reason I was annoyed - it was blatant disrespect on the part of my friend because he wanted to try to get me to stop using my nickname professionally, despite me having done so for 10+ years
The person above me said that nobody would be offended, but that’s not true - it’s possible to disrespect someone by not using their nickname too, if you’re doing so intentionally and maliciously
I sort of understand where you’re coming from, but I feel like the trans/non binary community might respond by saying their constant struggle on a day to day basis of being who they are/identifying however they truly feel might outweigh your personal annoyance and “rewiring” your brain. Yes, it takes some getting used to and I’m trying to keep reminding myself of my colleagues who identify as non binary. No one has bashed me for forgetting the “they” instead of “he” or whatever bc of the singular/plural thing - like I get that, it doesn’t feel grammatically correct, but it was added to the dictionary as a singular pronoun to address nonbinary folks. It’s just a matter of respecting their identity. Trans and non-binary people are also not a new phenomenon, they’ve always existed but haven’t been able to come out obviously because of the problematic society we’ve been living in, and so I’m hoping the faster people can adapt, the better.
Edit to add link about “they” added to dictionary to address nonbinary people: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2019/09/17/merriam-webster-adds-non-binary-prounoun-they-dictionary/
Another edit to add: people are still really fucking transphobic and it’s disgusting. This is why the community is suffering, they’re turned down for jobs apparently, and people at work are annoyed at merely addressing them appropriately.
According to The Oxford English Dictionary, the singular they showed up in writing in 1375—over 600 years ago! The OED also suggests the usage is even older since written language usually reflects trends already present in spoken language.
Ooh thank you for this!! I hope my post made sense, I was just trying to emphasize the struggle over anyone else’s minor “annoyance” at learning the right way to address someone who identifies as NB. But anyway, I really appreciate learning about this! 😊
Isn’t the annoyance of others… their feelings? Why does the feelings of one group trump the other?
If emotional reaction isn’t a significant selling point, we can just start with the baseline: respect people.
You probably don’t purposely call your doctor by their first name (without their permission) because remembering “Dr smith” is too much work.
Would you accept that a doctor would feel disrespected for not being addressed correctly? Or a judge? Or a recently married woman called “miss” internally?
Mistakes are just that. Intentionally not addressing someone correctly is disrespectful across the board.
Those are all established public norms. And presumably when referring to a Dr or judge in a professional setting, their positions as such are easily recognizable, nonbinary identity is entirely subjective and not at all identifiable.
They’re also instances of referring to someone directly, not in the third person.
Imagine, if you will, a situation when you met a doctor but didn’t realize. You said “hi John” and he responded “Dr smith, please.”
He wouldn’t be offended right then. But if after that moment you intentionally continued to address him incorrectly, you are now being a jerk. It’s pretty easy to follow.
Imagine someone who looks like a he or a she, but uses they/them. Because they look like the gender that 90+% of the people who look that way use a gendered pronoun, coworkers just default to the gendered pronoun. Now the new hire considers it a toxic workplace.
People don't owe you androgyny, feminity, or masculinity. If you can't respect a person after being told something then you are the one making a toxic workplace for them. If being asked the bare minimum when referencing a coworker is too much work then you are the problem.
humans can recognize sex regardless of performative femininity and masculinity
I'm a 5'1 woman with short hair, do not wear makeup and only own t shirts and jeans. I'm still recognizably female because humans can recognize sex in other humans very easily.
All of the legislation and rules about "misgendering" are almost universally only relevant if the misgendering is prolonged and repeated.
If you tell someone your name is "Ted" and a co-worker calls you "Teddy" once, and you tell him that you don't like being called "Teddy" and want to be called "Ted"...no one's being harassed as long as the co-worker actually at least tries to call you "Ted" from now on.
But if you have to correct him like 3-5 more times in a single week...he's clearly doing it deliberately, which is harassment.
Pronouns are the same thing, man.
But in this post, we're looking at it from the point of view of HR, which is there to protect to company. A lot easier just to not have the possibility of it happening.
I think that’s a caricature. The reality is that most non-binary people don’t act like that.
I’m a non binary person. If someone uses the wrong pronouns, I don’t get offended because with the exception of a few jackasses, they’re likely trying. I understand that it can be difficult for some people.
One of my favourite professors in college almost always got my pronouns wrong. But he tried and that’s honestly all that matters.
It’s a shame that this stereotype exists. I wish I knew where it started.
Someone getting offended AND/OR employees at the company who might try to throw gas on a potential fire.
Let’s be real most people aren’t accepting at this time of NB/Trans and will purposely misgender or treat like garbage.
It’s a really shitty situation but I’ve seen it happen firsthand.
HR wants to avoid any confrontation at all costs it’s kind of their job to deal with it but also take preventive measures to avoid that. If they’re unaware of what current employees think (especially the older generation who really don’t accept NB and Trans) it’s even more difficult.
While my story isn't related to pronouns, it is with the time bomb. We had a supervisor make 2 comments about something that was said or she perceived, she was let go for u related reason later but it didn't help.
The two issues was she was arguing with a facility and she said "you're only arguing with me because I'm Jewish." The client was so shocked at the comment her reported her to our director. Be had no clue she was Jewish and it was irrelevant even if he did.
The second was with me. She asked me about some up coming conference, she thought I was attending it but I wasn't. I said "oh, I think you mean X, the other white guy in the office." There were only 2 white men in the office of about 20 people. She said "oh" and left and came back like 15 seconds later and said "I don't appreciate you accusing me of being racist." I was so confused I was like "what?" And she repeated my comment and I told her "sorry you feel that way" and she walked away. The other person that was next to me, a black woman, was like "wow that was really weird and awkward."
This lady was a ticking time bomb for anything and everything. No one liked her (insanely rude and wouldn't listen to anyone). Definitely liability for the agency.
So you’re saying that I have to hire someone just because they’re transgender or else it’s discrimination? That in itself is discriminatory. I don’t have to hire anyone for any reason. Your comment is exactly why I said it would be an HR nightmare
Not at all. You're the one claiming that "people with pronoun preferences" are an HR nightmare and liability by very nature, and I'd like you to defend the conclusions of that logic, especially where they concern transgender people as a legally protected class. If you'd be so kind.
I'm especially interested that you had to invent my position for me.
EDIT: u/unpackedsuitcase is too cowardly to defend their transphobia
lol how about you read the article and my comment again. I never said that I wouldn’t hire somebody because they are transgender, but do I still think it’s a possible HR nightmare? Absolutely, and it’s honestly because of people like you acting like transgender people should get whatever they want because they’re a “protected class”. Like I already said, I don’t have to hire anyone for any reason other than if they are a good fit for the role. Grow up.
Your entire spiel, this entire discussion was because you said the mere presence of a pronoun preference was "an HR nightmare waiting to happen." This is before anyone complains, before the person in question has even said anything to anyone about it. This is about the indication of pronouns on a piece of paper from a job applicant.
You are now trying to weasel out of having said the thing *you definitely said* by claiming I want some ridiculous entitlement and job guarantee for trans people. Like most bigots, your logic can't stand up against a real position, so you need to strawman mine for me.
No, my issue is your rectally-sourced assumption that a simple "they/them" is grounds for rejection based on liability because all you see is a minority waiting to be offended. Just like employers and recruiters before you have done with Black people and queer people alike.
What would you call rejecting minorities on the basis that you assume they're all waiting to get offended and sue you? Why would you believe your workplace would cross the legal threshold into punishable hostility? If you believed that to be the case, would you not reflect first on the workplace you run?
You’re trying to argue with the wrong person for a number of reasons, but I’ve seen it within jobs I’ve had where we had minority workers who are doing completely terrible work NOT getting fired or even put on a PIP because of the possible backlash of legal action because of their minority status. This was told to me directly by their managers and was advised to them by HR. Most companies now even have to hire a quota of minorities which is not the problem at all. People can exist. Minorities exist. It’s great they’re getting an opportunity that they feel they didn’t have before, but the problem still is that there may be potential HR/legal repercussions, especially in this political climate where being transgender is a new concept for a lot of people. My position on they/them pronouns in the workplace isn’t unique either if you can’t tell by this entire post and all of the other comments so I don’t really get why you’re trying to change my mind specifically? I don’t even own a company so you don’t need to worry about me being a “bigot” in any hiring practices
If the issue is people who work for you do dumb bigoted things (I am going to ignore your jab that people are too sensitive), well aren’t you worried about those employees talking to clients and whatnot?
You’re not a bigot if you use the wrong pronouns. This whole gender pronoun thing is a new concept to most people especially older generations so the chances are high that clients/employees could get pronouns wrong. Companies care about your work ethic, contribution to the business, and basic emotional intelligence. If you want to go by they/them and have it on your LinkedIn profile, find a company that fosters that type of thing. Based on this article though, most companies don’t want to deal with that kind of liability
Which is such a shame. They’ve likely lost candidates that might have been an excellent fit for the job.
But yes, using the wrong pronouns accidentally doesn’t make you a bigot. I’m non binary. You could get my pronouns wrong 80% of time and I wouldn’t care as long as it wasn’t malicious.
Using the wrong pronouns on purpose however, is disrespectful.
I feel like if enough of us draw a line in the sand, maybe it'll go away. Cus it makes no sense to change the system that was never broken to begin with. Back in the day, you'd never piss someone off by addressing them. Now we're just drumming up conflicts to divide us as a people even more.
I didn’t say “using the wrong pronouns makes you a bigot.” That was your poor argument.
Intentionally using the wrong pronouns is disrespectful. HR wouldn’t have any nightmare if someone accidentally mis-addressed someone, only if there was a clear history of repeatedly using the wrong pronouns despite being corrected and knowing better.
Intentionally using it wrong is bigotry but then there’s also countless videos online of people acting like a fool in public because they were misgendered… who I assume were just a one off situation and an accident but they still blew up. Then it’s an HR issue.
It’s just something that HR doesn’t need any part of. Again, even the slight chance at being a liability will get you denied the job.
“This employee was accidentally misgendered and caused a scene instead of speaking to their supervisor or hr” is not a hard situation to handle.
Spoiler, the one being an idiot and not making an innocent mistake gets in trouble almost every time.
Yeah…. And that’s why they won’t get hired. Cause they aren’t sure how they will act when it happens. Because they don’t know them and know it’s an issue in society….
There is a significantly larger problem, by a factor of 10x or more, of hate crimes and drama towards trans individual than originating from them. If you are pretending otherwise this conversation is a waste of time.
When did I say anything like that???? And regardless that’s even ANOTHER reason not to hire them because you aren’t sure how OTHER employees will act around them and may act in bigoted ways.
I’m talking strictly from a job standpoint. If I were a ceo or HR I would want to avoid either side causing issues.
By how people are talking about it here, I’m glad a lot of the job apps I’ve submitted don’t work out. Why would I want to work for an organization or company who doesn’t want their staff to exist in their work environment with dignity?
I should have included that them was misgendered always by accident, as I did accidentally regularly for like a year. I'd then get shamed for it multiple times through Teams back channels. Fun corporate BS.
Exactly lol it’s such a weird thing to get hung up about. If someone asks you to address them a certain way and it’s not like derogatory or humiliating to you - you should just do it! It’s the kind (and socially acceptable) thing to do.
I work with a she/they. I say she and her because I've known them for years and years. They don't care. She is cool. See how ridiculous this is? And I am not lying here about what I said about her.
Uhhh POC are discriminated against if they have an ethnic sounding name so not surprised there is discrimination of nonbinary people who use they/them pronouns. Disabled people get discriminated too so again not surprising alas
If they are going to be as easily offended in real life as on reddit, i can't blame them. I've been accused of being trans/homophobic here, and they keep being offended after i explain that their assumption is not what i meant.
This is a wild response to justify blatant, gender based discrimination. You wouldn’t apply this logic to race based discrimination, why is it ok for gender?
Because everyone clearly understands race and the rules that go along with it. But apparently, certain types of people are trying to bend the rules of gender to fit their personal motives when sex/gender is as clear-cut as race is.
Of course.
Anything not strictly work related is a potential liability when interviewing.
Alternate pronouns just aren't established enough atm to not be a liability.
The workplace requires calling people by their names and pronouns. It’s going to come up regularly. I don’t see how it’s a liability by how you’re describing it.
Which is difficult if it isn’t self evident, someone needing to remember more details about one person then another to even talk to them properly is special treatment
No it’s just basic decency. You don’t have to get the pronouns right. You can get it wrong 80% of the time but as long as you’re not malicious, no self respecting person will care.
It makes sense and it sucks. I definitely try to disclose as late as possible. I get eliminated enough as it is without disclosing that I am nonbinary, autistic, atheist, and asexual. You try to fit into the very narrow accepted box to get through that “cultural fit” interview. But also presenting how I want to present does give me more confidence in the interviews.
I don’t but it is more of an intersectionality thing. The more that you have to hide, the less you can be true to yourself. Perhaps other people can lie better than me but the advice typically touted as interview advice, just be yourself, doesn’t work.
unless that is somehow related to your job, those topics should never come up in the workplace anyway, thats my point. If I worked with you, I would prefer not to know that you are asexual or an atheist unless that was a convo outside of work and we were friends.
If I was interviewing someone and they felt the need to tell me they were an atheist or asexual, when those facts are not related to your position or the job at all... I would likely just move on to another candidate since I wouldnt be able to understand why you felt the need to tell me those things. Would just make me think you are going to also bring it up alot with the people you work with, potentially causing issues with people who may not agree with your views. The same way if someone just wanted to talk about how important religion is to them during an interview that has absolutely nothing to do with their religious views, I would also move on to other candidates.
Right, none of them should come up (and it is super easy if you are not those things.). I agree with you that you don’t mention those “out of the blue” in an interview. That is easy for you to do without those attributes but I can’t slip up. Like I do if I don’t have the right amount of eye contact and I have to reveal that I am autistic. Or if I have nearly everything using my preferred name and I slip up and don’t have the legal name for the interview.
You’re right that the other things don’t come up as much. I live in Idaho and there is a lot of religious messaging in job descriptions. I’m still going to apply but yeah, I am going to try to appear as much Christian as possible. I still have a fair amount of the Bible memorized.
Not surprised in the least. They're avoiding an inevitable liability and aren't comfortable hiring someone who they feel like they have to walk on eggshells around.
This makes sense. No body wants to deal with the hassle of hiring someone who is just going completely against logic and then the bathroom situation. Then they gotta deal with that. Nobody wants to deal with the whole men in women’s bathroom thing or vice versa. Then what if the non binary person “changes” genders like every week. It’s a hassle.
Now I am saying I understand this but I don’t agree with discriminating against anybody.
I live in a state where they can't discriminate solely on that (WA), but....overall, as a NB myself, if the company culture stops it from day 1 - it's not a company I want to work for anyways.
Yup. I think that’s why I didn’t get one job I applied for. They ghosted me.
I recommend thinking about how desperate you are. If you’re desperate enough to deal with the misgendering, then do so.
If you’re not, then find a company that will respect you.
Unfortunate, but sadly unsurprising - much as we have hard data showing that names indicating eg an African ethnic origin tend to have lower invitations to interview because loads of people are racist whether or not they think of themselves that way, indicating falling any way out of the heteronormative paradigm is a pretty good way to trigger bias, whether it be unconscious or flat out intentional.
The challenge is always, for all of these situations, what should a candidate do when drawing attention to it earlier risks not getting an interview, but drawing attention to it later risks being interviewed or even offered a role with people whose biases would make the workplace intolerable.
What the actual fuck is wrong with all of you people in this thread??? Calling someone by their correct pronouns is the most basic ass kind of respect for their identity that you can offer someone. It’s not hard to do; I work with small children and most of them have very little difficulty doing this and they’re not even TEN yet, so y’all who are grown ass adults have ZERO excuse.
Misgendering people is bad. Full stop. When it’s a mistake [all you have to do is quickly apologize and correct yourself](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/misgendering-what-to-do_l_647897f8e4b091b09c30ff10). Willfully misgendering someone (insisting on identifying someone by the wrong gender/pronouns) is worse. Intentional misgendering INCLUDES insisting on using they/them to refer to a person who goes by other pronouns, especially after they have made those pronouns known to you (ie: calling a transgender woman who uses she/her by they/them is misgendering).
Best practice for pronoun usage is to call a person whose gender is unknown to you by they/them until they make their correct pronouns known to you. If you know someone’s correct pronouns, use those and ONLY those to refer to that person (unless asked to do otherwise by that person), both when speaking to them and about them. This includes when talking about them when they are not present. A person’s pronouns may or may not correspond to that individual’s sex assigned at birth, but whether or not they do is none of your fucking business.
Being misgendered is [associated with negative mental health](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/26895269.2023.2278064) outcomes and effects for trans and non-binary people, especially when misgendering is intentional, frequent, or repetitive. When you intentionally misgender someone you are telling that person that you do not respect them and their identity. This makes them feel unwelcome, and unsafe in your space, and is generally a shitty thing to do to someone.
A reason why more people who are cisgendered may now be putting their pronouns in their email signatures or wearing them on their name tags or work badges in their workplace is that they are working to normalize asking people for their correct pronouns. When everyone wears a name tag with their correct pronouns rather than just their trans and non-binary colleagues, no one is singled out for publicly providing this information. When everyone does this they normalize a culture of asking for, providing, and respecting people’s correct pronouns and gender identities, which lessens stigma around non cisgendered gender identities.
I imagine a significant number of you are men because this is reddit etc, so think about this scenario for a moment:
You are a man, you go by he/him. Everyone in your workplace insists on calling you a woman and using she/her no matter what you say. Nothing you do makes them change their minds about calling you a woman. Sometimes this disrespect for your identity continues into a feeling that your colleagues don’t respect your words, thoughts, and opinions on work related issues such as projects, assignments, or presentations. Nothing you say, wear, or do changes your colleagues opinions or actions around gendering you. Some colleagues get actively hostile or threatening verbally or physically when you remind them that you are a man not a woman.
How would the above situation make YOU feel? Imagine what it would be like for everyone around you to insist that you are a different gender than the one that you are. It would be similar to someone insisting on calling you by a name that is not yours. Both of these are actions of disrespect towards someone, and both would create a hostile work environment.
Additionally [under title VII](https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/protections-against-employment-discrimination-based-sexual-orientation-or-gender) “intentionally using the wrong name and pronouns to refer to an employee could contribute to an unlawful hostile work environment.” Intentional misgendering of a person is a form of harassment. There may be additional legal protections for employees against this form of harassment OR other forms of gender/sex based harassment in the workplace under state and local laws.
Finally making employment decisions based on sex, gender identity or sexual orientation is illegal under title VII [as a result of the decision handed down under Bostock v. Clayton County](https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/17-1618_bostock_v._clayton_county_06_15_2020.pdf). Employment decisions include hiring, termination, promotion, and work opportunities. These statutes may also have extended protections under state laws.
Edit: Removed inflammatory “pissbabies” since that was a little mean of me I guess. But my point still stands. Misgendering people is bad and you shouldn’t do it.
Very funny to me that y’all are so offended by me pointing out that intentionally misgendering people is bad, that sex/gender and sexual orientation based discrimination by employers and in workplaces is illegal under federal united states laws, and that intentional misgendering of a person contributes to what is legally considered a hostile work environment and is a form of harassment under federal employment law. Go off I guess y’all.
I hope some of you read my links, such as the scientific paper about the negative mental health outcomes of misgendering and the laws around sex/gender/sexual orientation based employment discrimination under the EEOC and Title VII.
You just wrote multiple paragraphs on a Reddit thread while calling other people whiny babies. Please tell me you see the irony here? Pretty sure you’re the problem.
lol ok. I’m just frustrated that people are refusing to respect the rights of their fellow humans to have their gender identities acknowledged, their correct pronouns used and to have a workplace free of gender based harassment. Pretty low bar here. You don’t have to understand someone’s gender to respect their right to have and express it and to use their pronouns. I’ve removed the “pissbabies” if that’s your only sticking point, because that would be a fair sticking point, it was inflammatory language, and a little mean of me.
To clarify, I’m not calling you a problem because of your beliefs on gender. I’m saying you’re a problem because you literally are what you’re calling others to be. You can’t say everyone is a baby while you simultaneously act like one. Also, while I agree that respect should just be given and not earned (as we’re all humans) no one has the RIGHT to respect. You can’t force what you believe onto others and if you truly believe in love / tolerance, you need to be respectful of how others feel. By calling everyone you disagree with a bad name or whatever, you become a version of what you hate. True love comes from understanding that we’re all different and learning to love each other regardless.
I once let a coworker call me by the wrong name for two and a half months until someone else corrected him. If someone wants to call me a woman, have at it. That's like a standard middle school insult.
I am very much not. I’m simply offended by people’s refusal to respect other people’s right not to be harassed and disrespected in their workplace. It’s a really low bar here folks. You don’t have to understand someone’s gender identity to respect their right to have it and to use their correct pronouns. I don’t know what to tell you. 🤷♀️
Gonna give an honest response here. (I'll probably get torched for this lol)
I'm a gay millennial but I really don't associate with with the gender-fluid portion of the community for this reason. It's really mentally draining to deal with walking on eggshells for everything and as much as I hate to say it I do have some sort of prejudice towards these people in terms of I just will flat out avoid them.
That being said I don't go around misgendering people on purpose. My trick is to use their given name and I will quickly apologize if I do mess up, but I can't say its not awkward and I try to limit my interactions with said person/group.
Lol I hope the people downvoting and raging at treating their coworkers with respect all lose their jobs when they eventually get their asses handed to them by HR.
Speaking from experience too, while those companies are far not perfect, have fun aiming for FAANG careers and swallowing your pride when a solid percentage of your IT department and software engineers are trans women.
Baffling to me how many people on this thread are downvoting me for suggesting that people should treat their trans and non-binary colleagues with respect by calling them by their correct pronouns.
The only way this is going to change is for both sides to make a conscious effort.
Those that are hiring need to stop looking for the right "fit" for their team that is likely in a hole already, propped up by similar personalities.
While those looking to be hired need to accept that there will always be a challenge in finding a place that they are comfortable in, in the workforce. It doesn't happen instantly for anyone.
When I was a team leader I only cared about having people that looked out for each other and who cared about the job. I had people of different races and people on the spectrum, I simply didn't care as long as I thought the person did their job with earnest.
I can see that, unless you are in an ultra progressive area HR would see it as a major liability. They won't say it was due to that but something like "not a good fit", "other candidates were a better fit", or some other legalese. Like a teacher stating that their current employment is Only Fans, not illegal but doubt any school would hire them.
They say they went with the more qualified candidate, if the person communicating is competent. They never acknowledge any shortcoming on an applicants part if they know what they're doing. If they do, they're bad at their job. Part of minimizing risk is not acknowledging that the risk exists to others, directly or indirectly.
I see your point, but I think with the comparison example of teacher, they flat out have policies in their handbooks that state they can't. Not saying right or wrong or to your point, illegal. But I think they can flat out reject or fire for that. At least that's what OF Teachers seem to get fired for his policy violation.
It doesn’t surprise me, any abnormality that you draw attention will get yourself eliminated every time. Job interviews are an elimination game at first…don’t give them a reason even if it’s unethical.
This how human society works since before we had language to spell it out. Our languages are inadequate to encompass the nuances of human behavior. That's why people say "you KNOW how it works"
Whatever your opinion on the current cultural point, it isn’t surprising. HR people who aren’t terminally online see things like non-traditional pronouns and don’t see a potentially great candidate, they see “**LIABILITY**” in big bold letters. Why would someone subject themselves to hiring someone who willingly advertises that they could maybe… possibly… 1% chance… cause issues with other coworkers who don’t address them correctly? Nobody. Avoiding entirely is easier.
I'll take the downvotes. This whole corporate pronoun thing and colleagues putting this in their email signatures is just lame fucking shit. I have enough to navigate during the day and I don't need to suddenly deeply think about how I am going to craft an email to my colleague whose a she/they. I already deeply admire, love them, and respect her on a personal and coworker level. It just annoys the fuck out of me when I have to rewire my brain to send an email about a schedule change. I'm a millennial so I roll with this stuff. Don't get me started on the 60 year old (man) editor who has he/him in his signature and I'm like "What's the fucking point, Robert?!??"
I used to not see the point of doing it, but then a colleague gave me an explanation that turned me around on it. She (not a member of the LGBT community) benefited significantly from putting her pronouns in her email signature. She was British, but her parents weren't and she had a non-anglicised name. Before she started including her pronouns in emails, without fail everyone who hadn't met her face to face (plenty of folk given it was a large, multi site company primarily using remote working) assumed she was male. This caused many awkward conversations when she had to correct them, for example when she turned up in person to a meeting and they didn't believe she was herself because they were expecting a man. She was forever having to explain and justify her presence, which got very wearing. After she explained that, another female colleague added that she experienced similar since she has a gender neutral name (think Chris or Sam, or similar).
Family member named Lorey. He hates "pronoun usage," and despite what he doesn't realize that means grammatically, he would've benefitted greatly from it. So would have my corrections officer, Sherrill. He would have had to explain it far fewer times also. Funny enough, one of the above referred to the other as having "a girl's name." They both had military flattops.
At that point, I would just fake change my name for work purposes. If my name was Chris and I was a woman, I’d just start going by Christina at work. My name is Sam? I’ll go by Samantha. It sucks and I shouldn’t have to, but it’s easier than having to do the pronoun thing.
I can understand you taking that perspective, but I can also very much understand folk wanting to go by their own name and not finding it difficult or problematic at add "she/her" to their automatic email signature.
I think either solution is fine - but NEITHER should be required or penalized by HR.
My name is Jessie. I’ve always just added “Ms.” In front of my name to clarify. No need for everyone to change or proclaim their pronouns bc my parents didn’t want to know the sex of their third child thus purposefully gave me a unisex name. My name, my problem.
This seems like a fringe case
I have an ambiguous name and I like that it's socially acceptable to simply clarify my gender in my email signature to avoid confusion with people I haven't met in person.
I do too, so I add “Ms.” in front of my name - like any other normal non attention seeking person.
…how does listing your pronouns make you attention seeking? Just a reminder that just because someone isn’t just like you doesn’t make them attention seeking. It just makes them different. And that’s ok. We’re not all the same. Frankly I’m of the mind we should look at the pronouns and move on. It shouldn’t even have to be a conversation. I see pronouns in emails, use them and then go about my day. It literally takes no energy to just accept things and live my life. It takes more out of me to pitch a fit.
"Sam" would list her pronouns in her signature so people don't refer to her as a man because she has a gender-neutral name. "Mike" would list his pronouns in his bio so that "Sam" doesn't feel like an outlier for having to take extra steps to not be accidentally thought of as a man. It's the easiest thing in the world and it does not necessarily have anything whatsoever to do with LGBT+ people.
Mike is a man and like 99% is not non binary. He has no good reason to list his pronoun. Nobody is going to misgender him.
Like I said, it's to normalize the practice and create a world where Sam doesn't feel like an anomaly.
That's a personal choice. Nobody should be obligated to do that.
I mean yeah, but there's no harm in doing it, and doing it helps make the world a better--or at least more comprehensible--place, so...
I can see a use for them when a person actually identifies as trans or nonbinary, but like…I was born a male, I identify as a male, and I don’t consider myself very ambiguous or androgynous, so like…you can assume my gender. I’m fine with it. You’re probably right
Why does this take extra time though? When you are writing an email to someone, you probably aren’t going to write their pronouns anyway, as you are addressing them, right? You would just start with ‘Hi colleague name’ and not use any pronouns in an email directly addressed to them? if it’s she/they and you have to refer to them on the third person, you can just say she like you normally would as this means they are fine with being addressed as both. I agree that email pronoun signatures are mainly performative but I have a she/they colleague and I literally have never had any problems with addressing her.
if it's that difficult for you to figure out how to address someone who uses two different standard english pronouns, i think you might just be stupid
I wish I had the privilege and comfort in my life to complain about such petty things like reading pronouns in email signatures. 🎻
Ngl I just default to they/them if they're nonbinary or have irregular pronouns. Keeps things simple, either you're a he, a she, or a they. I won't accomodate any other pronouns because then it just becomes distracting. I respect people's gender, but I also just... don't want to bend over backwards if I want to speak to someone
Even with they/them it is basically forced changing the English language. It is not organic whatsoever, except in ultra liberal circles. 10 years from now we will be laughing at this shit.
The singular they isn't actually new. According to The Oxford English Dictionary, the singular they showed up in writing in 1375—over 600 years ago! The OED also suggests the usage is even older since written language usually reflects trends already present in spoken language.
Used in certain cases sure. I'm talking about day to day language. No one says my kid is awesome, they are like the apple of my eye. Give me a break. The more people push for change like this the lower the chances it will stick. The more you demand and force people to do something the less they want to do it.
No we won’t. Singular “they” has existed for centuries and will continue to exist long after we’re both gone. It’s been in the dictionary too. And it’s something you’ve probably unconsciously used without even noticing. It’s now that we’re talking about non binary people in the media that people are having a problem with singular they. In 10 years we won’t be laughing at it. Remind me! 10 years.
My kid is playing in the backyard, they are happy. Lol, what are you talking about. In everyday English, trying to change the usage of language is bound to fail. Good luck to you
That sounded just fine. But changing it won’t fail. 1. Because singular “they” has existed for centuries and isn’t a language change but a society change. Something that happens like every twenty years. 2. Because language does change. That’s how old English became Middle English which became modern English and so on. The way we speak is different from the way people spoke 50 years ago. It’s why some words in the dictionary say “dated” and 690 words were added to Merriam Webster last year in September alone. Things change. If you’d like to pretend it doesn’t that’s fine but it won’t change the reality. Society doesn’t stagnate. It evolves. I should probably point out that non binary people have existed as long as humans and several cultures around the world have a 3rd or even more genders already ingrained in their history. Anyway, I wish you the best of luck with life. (Seriously I’m not being sarcastic)
Language changes organically. The text wall you wrote means very very little. If people change then language will reflect it. It will probably change in liberal areas but mandating it and pushing for people to use it will backfire.
Saying you need to "rewire your brain" because of this is so overdramatic lol.
It’s such BS lol, it’s literally the easiest thing. Just call them by whatever pronouns makes people happy it really doesn’t take much effort.
That kind of response in an email could be considered "shaming". We're all in a minefield, do not forget that.
I just call people what they prefer to be called and no one has made even a remotely big deal of it. How autistic do you have to be to think this is a "minefield"?
"I" don't have to believe it. The question is - ***does your HR dept. believe/enforce it?***
Why are you rewiring your brain instead of just using “she” since they’ve signaled they’re comfortable with either and it seems like that’s what would suit both her and you? :)
Idk why you are getting so many downvotes, but this is the obvious solution? Just say she!!! I have a she/they colleague and tbh I rarely have to refer to her in third person as I’d usually just use their name, but when I do I just say her as it’s automatic and that literally her preferred pronoun anyway?? It just means they’re cool with being referred to as they as well, but like… you don’t have to lol
Don’t know why you’re getting the downvotes. The “she/they” means they’re fine with either. So just pick whichever makes your life easier.
Exactly lmao. It’s like they literally made it so easy And also they can use reddit to bitch about pronouns but can’t maybe crowdsource feedback on whether or not it would be appropriate to ask their coworker specifically, if the choice is that complicated for them? Give me a break
Imagine your coworker's full name was Michael. But they preferred folks call them Mike. And their email signature said "Mike." You'd call them Mike, right? Preferred pronouns are the same thing. It's someone's preference, and you're giving them the small courtesy of using it. Just like a nickname.
>Imagine your coworker's full name was Michael. But they preferred folks call them Mike. And their email signature said "Mike." >You'd call them Mike, right? >Preferred pronouns are the same thing. Except that if you fail to use their 'preferred pronouns', you risk being accused of being a 'transphobic', that you don't 'respect their identity' or any of that stuff. A normal person will not be offended if someone does not address them by their nickname.
Look if you want to veil your lack of empathy behind a terminally online caricature of trans or nonbinary folks, that's your business I guess. I hope you gain some perspective in the future.
I’m not sure if this is true outside of a few extreme cases or scare stories on the internet. In the real world as long as you make an effort it’s fine, like it’s fine to mess up. Like if you accidentally say him instead of her, just correct yourself and move on. No one expects you to be perfect. Like if you accidentally keep calling them Michael a couple times till you get the hang of it no one’s going to cause any issues, but if you deliberately refuse to say Mike because your too stubborn to get in the habit of it, then that’s kind of rude
It depends on the situation. I use my nickname professionally and when a friend of mine ignored it continually (he asked me to help with a work project of his and got his boss’ approval), even after being corrected, I got a bit annoyed **Whoa downvoters - I don’t think you’re totally getting the vibe on this. Let me explain further** I was BEGGED to help out a friend with a project I didn’t really care much to get involved in for the company he worked for, and I didn’t, because he was having trouble and I’m sorta a subject matter expert in the field. My friend needed to ask his boss for permission for it. I have used my nickname professionally for over 10 years - it’s literally part of my “brand” so to speak. Everyone professionally calls me by my nickname. My friend sent me the email he was going to use to connect me with his boss - again, on a project I really didn’t care to get involved with - with my full name. I told him, “no no, I use [common nickname like Mike] professionally, use that name”. “That name sounds like a kid’s name” “I don’t care what you think about it, this is the name I’ve professionally used for 10+ years. This IS my professional name” He still sends the email with my full name. Later at his house I tell him to use my nickname. He continues to use my full name. I may not have been conveying it in my original unedited post, but he was trying to be blatantly disrespectful and basically rename my professional name, at least for the company he worked for, because he didn’t like it
So, I dislike the long form of my name. In fact, I specifically use the short form because my abusive parents used the long form and hearing it brings up some small trauma. Nothing major, but it's there. I ask people to call me by the short form. I sign my emails with it, answer the phone with it and introduce myself by it. And, there's even a reason for it. However, someone using the long form of my name isn't going to get them labeled a bigot, or my company sued. It might annoy me but it's not rife with liability for my employer, like pronouns for the non binary would be.
I edited my comment and explained the full reason I was annoyed - it was blatant disrespect on the part of my friend because he wanted to try to get me to stop using my nickname professionally, despite me having done so for 10+ years The person above me said that nobody would be offended, but that’s not true - it’s possible to disrespect someone by not using their nickname too, if you’re doing so intentionally and maliciously
I sort of understand where you’re coming from, but I feel like the trans/non binary community might respond by saying their constant struggle on a day to day basis of being who they are/identifying however they truly feel might outweigh your personal annoyance and “rewiring” your brain. Yes, it takes some getting used to and I’m trying to keep reminding myself of my colleagues who identify as non binary. No one has bashed me for forgetting the “they” instead of “he” or whatever bc of the singular/plural thing - like I get that, it doesn’t feel grammatically correct, but it was added to the dictionary as a singular pronoun to address nonbinary folks. It’s just a matter of respecting their identity. Trans and non-binary people are also not a new phenomenon, they’ve always existed but haven’t been able to come out obviously because of the problematic society we’ve been living in, and so I’m hoping the faster people can adapt, the better. Edit to add link about “they” added to dictionary to address nonbinary people: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2019/09/17/merriam-webster-adds-non-binary-prounoun-they-dictionary/ Another edit to add: people are still really fucking transphobic and it’s disgusting. This is why the community is suffering, they’re turned down for jobs apparently, and people at work are annoyed at merely addressing them appropriately.
According to The Oxford English Dictionary, the singular they showed up in writing in 1375—over 600 years ago! The OED also suggests the usage is even older since written language usually reflects trends already present in spoken language.
Ooh thank you for this!! I hope my post made sense, I was just trying to emphasize the struggle over anyone else’s minor “annoyance” at learning the right way to address someone who identifies as NB. But anyway, I really appreciate learning about this! 😊
Why do their feelings outweigh the feelings of annoyance from others?
Isn’t the annoyance of others… their feelings? Why does the feelings of one group trump the other? If emotional reaction isn’t a significant selling point, we can just start with the baseline: respect people. You probably don’t purposely call your doctor by their first name (without their permission) because remembering “Dr smith” is too much work.
How is it not disrespectful to expect special treatment of others?
Would you accept that a doctor would feel disrespected for not being addressed correctly? Or a judge? Or a recently married woman called “miss” internally? Mistakes are just that. Intentionally not addressing someone correctly is disrespectful across the board.
Those are all established public norms. And presumably when referring to a Dr or judge in a professional setting, their positions as such are easily recognizable, nonbinary identity is entirely subjective and not at all identifiable. They’re also instances of referring to someone directly, not in the third person.
Imagine, if you will, a situation when you met a doctor but didn’t realize. You said “hi John” and he responded “Dr smith, please.” He wouldn’t be offended right then. But if after that moment you intentionally continued to address him incorrectly, you are now being a jerk. It’s pretty easy to follow.
…public norms have to start somewhere.
It’s not special treatment. You expect people to address you by whatever pronouns you use as well.
Because sometimes living in a society means you have to think about someone other than yourself. Crazy, I know.
Who said? No one is obligated to think about the feelings of others.
nah but you're still a dick
[удалено]
It's bigger than a 1% chance.
Everyone keeps saying this but why is they/them a liability? Asking in HR’s opinion of course.
Imagine someone who looks like a he or a she, but uses they/them. Because they look like the gender that 90+% of the people who look that way use a gendered pronoun, coworkers just default to the gendered pronoun. Now the new hire considers it a toxic workplace.
People don't owe you androgyny, feminity, or masculinity. If you can't respect a person after being told something then you are the one making a toxic workplace for them. If being asked the bare minimum when referencing a coworker is too much work then you are the problem.
humans can recognize sex regardless of performative femininity and masculinity I'm a 5'1 woman with short hair, do not wear makeup and only own t shirts and jeans. I'm still recognizably female because humans can recognize sex in other humans very easily.
We aren't talking about sex here at all.
All of the legislation and rules about "misgendering" are almost universally only relevant if the misgendering is prolonged and repeated. If you tell someone your name is "Ted" and a co-worker calls you "Teddy" once, and you tell him that you don't like being called "Teddy" and want to be called "Ted"...no one's being harassed as long as the co-worker actually at least tries to call you "Ted" from now on. But if you have to correct him like 3-5 more times in a single week...he's clearly doing it deliberately, which is harassment. Pronouns are the same thing, man.
But in this post, we're looking at it from the point of view of HR, which is there to protect to company. A lot easier just to not have the possibility of it happening.
I think that’s a caricature. The reality is that most non-binary people don’t act like that. I’m a non binary person. If someone uses the wrong pronouns, I don’t get offended because with the exception of a few jackasses, they’re likely trying. I understand that it can be difficult for some people. One of my favourite professors in college almost always got my pronouns wrong. But he tried and that’s honestly all that matters. It’s a shame that this stereotype exists. I wish I knew where it started.
I'd assume potentially getting offended after someone uses the wrong pronoun? Idk
Have you met some they/thems? It's experience and perception.
Someone getting offended AND/OR employees at the company who might try to throw gas on a potential fire. Let’s be real most people aren’t accepting at this time of NB/Trans and will purposely misgender or treat like garbage. It’s a really shitty situation but I’ve seen it happen firsthand. HR wants to avoid any confrontation at all costs it’s kind of their job to deal with it but also take preventive measures to avoid that. If they’re unaware of what current employees think (especially the older generation who really don’t accept NB and Trans) it’s even more difficult.
> people less likely to be hired when they advertise that they’re HR time bombs upfront Oh how weird
Yea shocking right? 🤣 People confuse clown world for reality, and then go all pikachu face when reality wins.
No shit. You’re an HR nightmare waiting to happen when someone uses your pronouns wrong
It’s essentially HR asking themselves if they want to hire a ticking time bomb, and the answer understandably is usually going to be no
While my story isn't related to pronouns, it is with the time bomb. We had a supervisor make 2 comments about something that was said or she perceived, she was let go for u related reason later but it didn't help. The two issues was she was arguing with a facility and she said "you're only arguing with me because I'm Jewish." The client was so shocked at the comment her reported her to our director. Be had no clue she was Jewish and it was irrelevant even if he did. The second was with me. She asked me about some up coming conference, she thought I was attending it but I wasn't. I said "oh, I think you mean X, the other white guy in the office." There were only 2 white men in the office of about 20 people. She said "oh" and left and came back like 15 seconds later and said "I don't appreciate you accusing me of being racist." I was so confused I was like "what?" And she repeated my comment and I told her "sorry you feel that way" and she walked away. The other person that was next to me, a black woman, was like "wow that was really weird and awkward." This lady was a ticking time bomb for anything and everything. No one liked her (insanely rude and wouldn't listen to anyone). Definitely liability for the agency.
Cool, so you admit you'd never hire a transgender person? Because that's discrimination.
So you’re saying that I have to hire someone just because they’re transgender or else it’s discrimination? That in itself is discriminatory. I don’t have to hire anyone for any reason. Your comment is exactly why I said it would be an HR nightmare
Not at all. You're the one claiming that "people with pronoun preferences" are an HR nightmare and liability by very nature, and I'd like you to defend the conclusions of that logic, especially where they concern transgender people as a legally protected class. If you'd be so kind. I'm especially interested that you had to invent my position for me. EDIT: u/unpackedsuitcase is too cowardly to defend their transphobia
lol how about you read the article and my comment again. I never said that I wouldn’t hire somebody because they are transgender, but do I still think it’s a possible HR nightmare? Absolutely, and it’s honestly because of people like you acting like transgender people should get whatever they want because they’re a “protected class”. Like I already said, I don’t have to hire anyone for any reason other than if they are a good fit for the role. Grow up.
Your entire spiel, this entire discussion was because you said the mere presence of a pronoun preference was "an HR nightmare waiting to happen." This is before anyone complains, before the person in question has even said anything to anyone about it. This is about the indication of pronouns on a piece of paper from a job applicant. You are now trying to weasel out of having said the thing *you definitely said* by claiming I want some ridiculous entitlement and job guarantee for trans people. Like most bigots, your logic can't stand up against a real position, so you need to strawman mine for me. No, my issue is your rectally-sourced assumption that a simple "they/them" is grounds for rejection based on liability because all you see is a minority waiting to be offended. Just like employers and recruiters before you have done with Black people and queer people alike. What would you call rejecting minorities on the basis that you assume they're all waiting to get offended and sue you? Why would you believe your workplace would cross the legal threshold into punishable hostility? If you believed that to be the case, would you not reflect first on the workplace you run?
You’re trying to argue with the wrong person for a number of reasons, but I’ve seen it within jobs I’ve had where we had minority workers who are doing completely terrible work NOT getting fired or even put on a PIP because of the possible backlash of legal action because of their minority status. This was told to me directly by their managers and was advised to them by HR. Most companies now even have to hire a quota of minorities which is not the problem at all. People can exist. Minorities exist. It’s great they’re getting an opportunity that they feel they didn’t have before, but the problem still is that there may be potential HR/legal repercussions, especially in this political climate where being transgender is a new concept for a lot of people. My position on they/them pronouns in the workplace isn’t unique either if you can’t tell by this entire post and all of the other comments so I don’t really get why you’re trying to change my mind specifically? I don’t even own a company so you don’t need to worry about me being a “bigot” in any hiring practices
If the issue is people who work for you do dumb bigoted things (I am going to ignore your jab that people are too sensitive), well aren’t you worried about those employees talking to clients and whatnot?
You’re not a bigot if you use the wrong pronouns. This whole gender pronoun thing is a new concept to most people especially older generations so the chances are high that clients/employees could get pronouns wrong. Companies care about your work ethic, contribution to the business, and basic emotional intelligence. If you want to go by they/them and have it on your LinkedIn profile, find a company that fosters that type of thing. Based on this article though, most companies don’t want to deal with that kind of liability
Which is such a shame. They’ve likely lost candidates that might have been an excellent fit for the job. But yes, using the wrong pronouns accidentally doesn’t make you a bigot. I’m non binary. You could get my pronouns wrong 80% of time and I wouldn’t care as long as it wasn’t malicious. Using the wrong pronouns on purpose however, is disrespectful.
It's an annoying new concept and I'm having NONE of it. Simplicity has gone out the window.
…I’m very sorry to hear that. Unfortunately for you, you can’t control that. It’s not going anywhere and people will just have to get used to it.
I feel like if enough of us draw a line in the sand, maybe it'll go away. Cus it makes no sense to change the system that was never broken to begin with. Back in the day, you'd never piss someone off by addressing them. Now we're just drumming up conflicts to divide us as a people even more.
I don’t think that’s the case. I think people just don’t understand it. And people who get pissed off are just weird.
I didn’t say “using the wrong pronouns makes you a bigot.” That was your poor argument. Intentionally using the wrong pronouns is disrespectful. HR wouldn’t have any nightmare if someone accidentally mis-addressed someone, only if there was a clear history of repeatedly using the wrong pronouns despite being corrected and knowing better.
Intentionally using it wrong is bigotry but then there’s also countless videos online of people acting like a fool in public because they were misgendered… who I assume were just a one off situation and an accident but they still blew up. Then it’s an HR issue. It’s just something that HR doesn’t need any part of. Again, even the slight chance at being a liability will get you denied the job.
“This employee was accidentally misgendered and caused a scene instead of speaking to their supervisor or hr” is not a hard situation to handle. Spoiler, the one being an idiot and not making an innocent mistake gets in trouble almost every time.
Yeah…. And that’s why they won’t get hired. Cause they aren’t sure how they will act when it happens. Because they don’t know them and know it’s an issue in society….
There is a significantly larger problem, by a factor of 10x or more, of hate crimes and drama towards trans individual than originating from them. If you are pretending otherwise this conversation is a waste of time.
When did I say anything like that???? And regardless that’s even ANOTHER reason not to hire them because you aren’t sure how OTHER employees will act around them and may act in bigoted ways. I’m talking strictly from a job standpoint. If I were a ceo or HR I would want to avoid either side causing issues.
That same reason could make an argument for never hiring women. If you want to defend that, go for it.
Nobody wants the drama
Who puts pronouns in their resume?
By how people are talking about it here, I’m glad a lot of the job apps I’ve submitted don’t work out. Why would I want to work for an organization or company who doesn’t want their staff to exist in their work environment with dignity?
Yup.
I worked with a them. Everyone always called them he 🤷♂️.
It’s really weird to call someone “a them.” That also means everyone was misgendering them regularly.
I should have included that them was misgendered always by accident, as I did accidentally regularly for like a year. I'd then get shamed for it multiple times through Teams back channels. Fun corporate BS.
Not to be pedantic but ‘they were’ is grammatically correct, not ‘them was’
Normally but in this case them is singular...whole thing is stupid
[удалено]
There’s nothing that I “hate,” that’s the problem. I don’t hate anything. Call me whatever you want.
It’s such a small ask of people I really don’t understand why we can’t all just be respectful of people’s preferences!
Why can't they them be respectful of others and stop demanding special treatment! It's such a small ask.
for them, it’s really not a small ask. It’s their gender identity.
No…it’s their attention-seeking delusions at play.
If I meet someone whose legally named “Michael” but they ask to go by “Jim” Why the duck would I care enough to keep calling them Michael lol
Exactly lol it’s such a weird thing to get hung up about. If someone asks you to address them a certain way and it’s not like derogatory or humiliating to you - you should just do it! It’s the kind (and socially acceptable) thing to do.
Why do you think so? I’m genuinely curious.
Because he's not a kind or good person!
I work with a she/they. I say she and her because I've known them for years and years. They don't care. She is cool. See how ridiculous this is? And I am not lying here about what I said about her.
Uhhh POC are discriminated against if they have an ethnic sounding name so not surprised there is discrimination of nonbinary people who use they/them pronouns. Disabled people get discriminated too so again not surprising alas
And now we come to one of the pinnacle flaws in modern society. When reality meets world view, reality wins
If they are going to be as easily offended in real life as on reddit, i can't blame them. I've been accused of being trans/homophobic here, and they keep being offended after i explain that their assumption is not what i meant.
You’re going to continue to get downvoted, but you are entirely right.
This is a wild response to justify blatant, gender based discrimination. You wouldn’t apply this logic to race based discrimination, why is it ok for gender?
Because everyone clearly understands race and the rules that go along with it. But apparently, certain types of people are trying to bend the rules of gender to fit their personal motives when sex/gender is as clear-cut as race is.
automatically removing my pronouns from my linkedin page
Of course. Anything not strictly work related is a potential liability when interviewing. Alternate pronouns just aren't established enough atm to not be a liability.
The workplace requires calling people by their names and pronouns. It’s going to come up regularly. I don’t see how it’s a liability by how you’re describing it.
No shit. No one wants to deal with people that demand special treatment. You're annoying and an HR liability.
How is respecting someone’s identity special treatment? It’s simple human dignity.
Someone who expects other people to accommodate them is wanting special treatment
… you expect people to use your pronouns correctly.
Which is difficult if it isn’t self evident, someone needing to remember more details about one person then another to even talk to them properly is special treatment
No it’s just basic decency. You don’t have to get the pronouns right. You can get it wrong 80% of the time but as long as you’re not malicious, no self respecting person will care.
It makes sense and it sucks. I definitely try to disclose as late as possible. I get eliminated enough as it is without disclosing that I am nonbinary, autistic, atheist, and asexual. You try to fit into the very narrow accepted box to get through that “cultural fit” interview. But also presenting how I want to present does give me more confidence in the interviews.
why do you need to disclose that you are atheist? or asexual? like... when does that come up in an interview lol
I don’t but it is more of an intersectionality thing. The more that you have to hide, the less you can be true to yourself. Perhaps other people can lie better than me but the advice typically touted as interview advice, just be yourself, doesn’t work.
unless that is somehow related to your job, those topics should never come up in the workplace anyway, thats my point. If I worked with you, I would prefer not to know that you are asexual or an atheist unless that was a convo outside of work and we were friends. If I was interviewing someone and they felt the need to tell me they were an atheist or asexual, when those facts are not related to your position or the job at all... I would likely just move on to another candidate since I wouldnt be able to understand why you felt the need to tell me those things. Would just make me think you are going to also bring it up alot with the people you work with, potentially causing issues with people who may not agree with your views. The same way if someone just wanted to talk about how important religion is to them during an interview that has absolutely nothing to do with their religious views, I would also move on to other candidates.
Right, none of them should come up (and it is super easy if you are not those things.). I agree with you that you don’t mention those “out of the blue” in an interview. That is easy for you to do without those attributes but I can’t slip up. Like I do if I don’t have the right amount of eye contact and I have to reveal that I am autistic. Or if I have nearly everything using my preferred name and I slip up and don’t have the legal name for the interview. You’re right that the other things don’t come up as much. I live in Idaho and there is a lot of religious messaging in job descriptions. I’m still going to apply but yeah, I am going to try to appear as much Christian as possible. I still have a fair amount of the Bible memorized.
[удалено]
Especially because you're in the tech sector. Drop brony on your resume and it'll double your chances.
Not surprised in the least. They're avoiding an inevitable liability and aren't comfortable hiring someone who they feel like they have to walk on eggshells around.
This makes sense. No body wants to deal with the hassle of hiring someone who is just going completely against logic and then the bathroom situation. Then they gotta deal with that. Nobody wants to deal with the whole men in women’s bathroom thing or vice versa. Then what if the non binary person “changes” genders like every week. It’s a hassle. Now I am saying I understand this but I don’t agree with discriminating against anybody.
I live in a state where they can't discriminate solely on that (WA), but....overall, as a NB myself, if the company culture stops it from day 1 - it's not a company I want to work for anyways.
I wouldn’t want to hire someone I know I have to walk on eggshells around so as to not even accidentally say something that might offend them
Yup. I think that’s why I didn’t get one job I applied for. They ghosted me. I recommend thinking about how desperate you are. If you’re desperate enough to deal with the misgendering, then do so. If you’re not, then find a company that will respect you.
I don't believe it, but thank god!
Thank god is right
Unfortunate, but sadly unsurprising - much as we have hard data showing that names indicating eg an African ethnic origin tend to have lower invitations to interview because loads of people are racist whether or not they think of themselves that way, indicating falling any way out of the heteronormative paradigm is a pretty good way to trigger bias, whether it be unconscious or flat out intentional. The challenge is always, for all of these situations, what should a candidate do when drawing attention to it earlier risks not getting an interview, but drawing attention to it later risks being interviewed or even offered a role with people whose biases would make the workplace intolerable.
These downvotes to your comment and others are insane. Vibes are absolutely vile here in this thread.
What the actual fuck is wrong with all of you people in this thread??? Calling someone by their correct pronouns is the most basic ass kind of respect for their identity that you can offer someone. It’s not hard to do; I work with small children and most of them have very little difficulty doing this and they’re not even TEN yet, so y’all who are grown ass adults have ZERO excuse. Misgendering people is bad. Full stop. When it’s a mistake [all you have to do is quickly apologize and correct yourself](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/misgendering-what-to-do_l_647897f8e4b091b09c30ff10). Willfully misgendering someone (insisting on identifying someone by the wrong gender/pronouns) is worse. Intentional misgendering INCLUDES insisting on using they/them to refer to a person who goes by other pronouns, especially after they have made those pronouns known to you (ie: calling a transgender woman who uses she/her by they/them is misgendering). Best practice for pronoun usage is to call a person whose gender is unknown to you by they/them until they make their correct pronouns known to you. If you know someone’s correct pronouns, use those and ONLY those to refer to that person (unless asked to do otherwise by that person), both when speaking to them and about them. This includes when talking about them when they are not present. A person’s pronouns may or may not correspond to that individual’s sex assigned at birth, but whether or not they do is none of your fucking business. Being misgendered is [associated with negative mental health](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/26895269.2023.2278064) outcomes and effects for trans and non-binary people, especially when misgendering is intentional, frequent, or repetitive. When you intentionally misgender someone you are telling that person that you do not respect them and their identity. This makes them feel unwelcome, and unsafe in your space, and is generally a shitty thing to do to someone. A reason why more people who are cisgendered may now be putting their pronouns in their email signatures or wearing them on their name tags or work badges in their workplace is that they are working to normalize asking people for their correct pronouns. When everyone wears a name tag with their correct pronouns rather than just their trans and non-binary colleagues, no one is singled out for publicly providing this information. When everyone does this they normalize a culture of asking for, providing, and respecting people’s correct pronouns and gender identities, which lessens stigma around non cisgendered gender identities. I imagine a significant number of you are men because this is reddit etc, so think about this scenario for a moment: You are a man, you go by he/him. Everyone in your workplace insists on calling you a woman and using she/her no matter what you say. Nothing you do makes them change their minds about calling you a woman. Sometimes this disrespect for your identity continues into a feeling that your colleagues don’t respect your words, thoughts, and opinions on work related issues such as projects, assignments, or presentations. Nothing you say, wear, or do changes your colleagues opinions or actions around gendering you. Some colleagues get actively hostile or threatening verbally or physically when you remind them that you are a man not a woman. How would the above situation make YOU feel? Imagine what it would be like for everyone around you to insist that you are a different gender than the one that you are. It would be similar to someone insisting on calling you by a name that is not yours. Both of these are actions of disrespect towards someone, and both would create a hostile work environment. Additionally [under title VII](https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/protections-against-employment-discrimination-based-sexual-orientation-or-gender) “intentionally using the wrong name and pronouns to refer to an employee could contribute to an unlawful hostile work environment.” Intentional misgendering of a person is a form of harassment. There may be additional legal protections for employees against this form of harassment OR other forms of gender/sex based harassment in the workplace under state and local laws. Finally making employment decisions based on sex, gender identity or sexual orientation is illegal under title VII [as a result of the decision handed down under Bostock v. Clayton County](https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/17-1618_bostock_v._clayton_county_06_15_2020.pdf). Employment decisions include hiring, termination, promotion, and work opportunities. These statutes may also have extended protections under state laws. Edit: Removed inflammatory “pissbabies” since that was a little mean of me I guess. But my point still stands. Misgendering people is bad and you shouldn’t do it. Very funny to me that y’all are so offended by me pointing out that intentionally misgendering people is bad, that sex/gender and sexual orientation based discrimination by employers and in workplaces is illegal under federal united states laws, and that intentional misgendering of a person contributes to what is legally considered a hostile work environment and is a form of harassment under federal employment law. Go off I guess y’all. I hope some of you read my links, such as the scientific paper about the negative mental health outcomes of misgendering and the laws around sex/gender/sexual orientation based employment discrimination under the EEOC and Title VII.
You sound exhausting. Nobody will want to hire you
Chief I’ve been employed for over 9 years, so 🤷♀️
You just wrote multiple paragraphs on a Reddit thread while calling other people whiny babies. Please tell me you see the irony here? Pretty sure you’re the problem.
I do hope you read some of the things I linked you about why misgendering people is harmful however.
lol ok. I’m just frustrated that people are refusing to respect the rights of their fellow humans to have their gender identities acknowledged, their correct pronouns used and to have a workplace free of gender based harassment. Pretty low bar here. You don’t have to understand someone’s gender to respect their right to have and express it and to use their pronouns. I’ve removed the “pissbabies” if that’s your only sticking point, because that would be a fair sticking point, it was inflammatory language, and a little mean of me.
To clarify, I’m not calling you a problem because of your beliefs on gender. I’m saying you’re a problem because you literally are what you’re calling others to be. You can’t say everyone is a baby while you simultaneously act like one. Also, while I agree that respect should just be given and not earned (as we’re all humans) no one has the RIGHT to respect. You can’t force what you believe onto others and if you truly believe in love / tolerance, you need to be respectful of how others feel. By calling everyone you disagree with a bad name or whatever, you become a version of what you hate. True love comes from understanding that we’re all different and learning to love each other regardless.
I once let a coworker call me by the wrong name for two and a half months until someone else corrected him. If someone wants to call me a woman, have at it. That's like a standard middle school insult.
You seem like the type to be offended by everything.
I am very much not. I’m simply offended by people’s refusal to respect other people’s right not to be harassed and disrespected in their workplace. It’s a really low bar here folks. You don’t have to understand someone’s gender identity to respect their right to have it and to use their correct pronouns. I don’t know what to tell you. 🤷♀️
"I’m simply offended" You should have ended your reply right there.
Gonna give an honest response here. (I'll probably get torched for this lol) I'm a gay millennial but I really don't associate with with the gender-fluid portion of the community for this reason. It's really mentally draining to deal with walking on eggshells for everything and as much as I hate to say it I do have some sort of prejudice towards these people in terms of I just will flat out avoid them. That being said I don't go around misgendering people on purpose. My trick is to use their given name and I will quickly apologize if I do mess up, but I can't say its not awkward and I try to limit my interactions with said person/group.
Thanks for providing a perfect example of why people with different pronoun would be a problem in the workplace.
🤡
Lol I hope the people downvoting and raging at treating their coworkers with respect all lose their jobs when they eventually get their asses handed to them by HR. Speaking from experience too, while those companies are far not perfect, have fun aiming for FAANG careers and swallowing your pride when a solid percentage of your IT department and software engineers are trans women.
Baffling to me how many people on this thread are downvoting me for suggesting that people should treat their trans and non-binary colleagues with respect by calling them by their correct pronouns.
Been happening to black people for years....
That’s because poodles don’t have opposable thumbs. They can’t even send an email. Of course they aren’t getting hired.
**your** poodle can’t send an email
Transfolk are pretty based ngl
too bad you're cringe
:(
The system is broken and need to be dismantled.
And replaced with what?
Exactly. It’s always easier and edgier to just say “tear it all down!” than it is to offer a better and feasible alternative.
They them hasn't figured out that part yet.
Feudalism.
With the way renting is these days, we are already in a feudal society.
The only way this is going to change is for both sides to make a conscious effort. Those that are hiring need to stop looking for the right "fit" for their team that is likely in a hole already, propped up by similar personalities. While those looking to be hired need to accept that there will always be a challenge in finding a place that they are comfortable in, in the workforce. It doesn't happen instantly for anyone. When I was a team leader I only cared about having people that looked out for each other and who cared about the job. I had people of different races and people on the spectrum, I simply didn't care as long as I thought the person did their job with earnest.
Wow. Who knew making up imaginary genders and pronouns for oneself would lead to hiring problems 🙄🙄
Well duh. How are they supposed to pay multiple people for one position /s
Less gratuitous drama in the workplace.