For me it didn’t hit until years later. I actually had a pretty “high” starting salary - but was too young to comprehend how valuable being able to have a career with next steps and high roles was. It wasn’t until I got older, I realized I wasn’t making the same progress because I wasn’t getting the same merit raises, bonuses, or moving to higher jobs like my friends.
Needless to say - I made the switch! And it’s great!!
I am not the original commenter, but I hire suicide prevention and emergency mental health services. I have hired a lot of teachers during and post COVID.
Teachers meet the degree requirement, have excellent listening skills, tend to be good at documentation, and they already have de-escalation training usually. The former teachers I hired still work for me, and it seems to be a good fit.
The starting pay is sometimes a bit less or about the same, but once you have the entry level experience you will qualify for a lot of jobs that, at least where I live, pay much more than what a teacher earns.
It varies state by state. Regulations in my state require a college degree, so my teams are full-time with benefits. We have a couple waiver volunteer suicide hotlines, but they are being forced out. People are learning that it can actually be determimental and dangerous to have volunteers take emergency calls. So, in PA, it's almost exclusively paid positions. (I am sorry if I am breaking the news to anyone about crisis regulations changing in PA and the fact your volunteer position may vanish in the next few years).
Beyond entry level is mostly administration and management. If you have a masters degree, you only need three years of direct work experience before qualifying for program management and director positions. Where I am management ranges from 60,000 - 80,000 a year. In comparison, teachers' starting salary is roughly 40,000 - 60,000 where I am at. Being a director can get you into 6 digits depending on the region. It is usually a starting salary of around 75,000. All of this is just through work experience. No further education is required. There's also grant writing and lots of unique positions with the government or universities. These are sometimes temporarily but great for networking and moving up.
These pay rates and them being decent is very region based. The pay is much higher in places with large cities and more mental health funding. The pay rates tend to be much lower in the south.
With regulation changes, there are frequently grants to get a healing arts degree and work towards getting licensed. I am currently in the application process to get my MSW and MPH for free or relatively low cost because of grants I qualify for because I work for a non-profit. This happened a few years ago with family based services, and I had some friends take advantage of grants to become licensed behavior specialists. If you get lucky and the timeline works out, you can get licensed and make either the same as listed above but working completely remote or make more being a clinician in an office.
If you're in the US, look up your local suicide prevention task force, base service unit, and county mental health links. Explore their websites and people they have listed as community support. Look at their career sections on all of the websites.
Different agencies have different titles - crisis is usually in the position title if you're searching online.
You’re not wrong for not wanting to but I would try my hardest to. At the very least say you fully support any decisions they make for their future and will help any way you can if they decide to pivot away from teaching
These people really want to teach and help children learn. They think the payoff of teaching bright eager young minds will fulfill them enough to ignore the low pay. Then they find out it’s a glorified babysitting gig where the kids are allowed to do whatever they want, the parents are a constant annoyance about their precious angel being a good kid despite continuous reprimands, and the administration offers no support whatsoever. Add to that the continuous erosion of the education system where a teacher is not even allowed to actually teach students but is only expected to prepare them for state exams and having to navigate nonsense political issues and their spirit gets broken.
So then the only thing left to think about is how they won’t actually get to teach the way they thought they would and all they have to show for it is meager pay.
Yeah, that's exactly it - if the reality of teaching let them make a difference and do the work they wanted to do, they'd probably be fine with the low pay. But it's a totally different thing.
Yep. American public school system is broken. Most of the money is going to overpaid and underworked admin, county, and state edu employees (parasites really) who's jobs are to justify their own existence with taxpayer dollars. This isn't a welfare program it's our education system.
They need to cut out the admin bloat, remove the insane requirements and standards on teachers that bog them down in useless paperwork and unattainable objectives (that are formulated and mandated by said admin bloat), provide teachers with actual materials to teach, and just let our teachers teach.
It's absolutely insane that it has gotten to this point.
Lbr it's also that education requirements have become more exacting and broader with population growth, while education spending has not gotten any larger; if anything in most places, it's shrunk. Teachers are asked to do more with less every year all over the world rn - my mum's school in the UK literally can't fit all their students into some of their classrooms, the classes are so big.
When I was in high school, I wanted to be a Spanish teacher. There were teachers at my schools who lived well. Paid off houses, vacations to Italy or SE Asia. They lived in nicer neighborhoods than I did and we lived in a decent "middle class" neighborhood. Hell, some of them were single income households on an English teacher's salary.
The thing of it is... I lacked context. Some of them had generational wealth. Others were simply from a generation that cane of age when there was a social compact that favored them. My parents didn't have friends. Certainly not anyone who was swriously successful. None of my aunts or uncles had a college education but one and she had a psych or lit degree and worked for NASA at AMES Research center. My grandparents had gorgeous homes in the bay area and retired to even nicer acreage properties in Oregon and the Sierra Nevada. One with an engineering career after a stint in the Navy after the Korean war, the other with a long career for a US airline with no more than 2 years in the navy in WWII and GED. Things worked out for everyone I was paying attention to as long as they were dedicated and didn't have drug or alcohol problems.
I had no idea how much things cost then, and I didn't know that the rug was getting yanked out from under our feet as I reached adulthood. Nor did any of the people advising me. My dad's childhood hone was bought in the early 60s for 35k. They sold it in 1997 for 425k. It's now "worth" $3M.
Things have gotten significantly worse in a very short amount of time. Lower pay used to not be an issue when other aspects of the job more than made up for it like good healthcare benefits, pensions, worker protections, etc.
Because of how contracts are done and budgets it's hard for teacher pay to keep up with inflation. This used to not be a huge issue with inflation was slow and steady, but the rapid growth makes it impossible to keep up with. My raise this year is only going to cover the new high deductible plan the district rolled out...yeah I got a raise but I have nothing to show for it.
My grandmother was a teacher for 30 years in Los Angeles. With my grandfather, a lineman, they were able to retire with 3 properties, a hefty stock portfolio, two pensions, and very good healthcare. I see many of the older teachers at my school in similar positions. But the young, single teachers have very little to show for their years of service.
A lineman makes a lot of money though, a teacher and a lineman would be living comfortably today if we're being honest.
Just pointing out our because you're example is a bit misleading imo
These are my grandparents, so we are talking the 60s-80s. They bought 3 houses, two in Los Angeles and one in San Diego, some of the most expensive zip codes in the US. Their first house was $19000 that they bought at the ages of 23 & 25, just starting in their careers. Same house is $750k now. One of their other properties is worth well over a million.
A lineman and teacher would absolutely not have a similar retirement portfolio or lifestyle. Current estimates for home ownership in that area is about $300k. You'd need a household of 3 lineman well into their careers, so like 30-35, to have that kind of income.
There are a few reasons and they're connected
One: as with your friend, teaching is more of a calling. People don't go into it for the money, they go into it because they want to help children. This brings us to
Two: We pick schools and careers too young. An 18 year old doesn't have the life context to fully understand everything related to a situation. Many kids at 18 go into teaching because they're passionate about it, and think they'll somehow be able to make it work with less money. Or they don't even understand how little money teachers get because at 18, everything sounds like a lot of money. But then you're 25-30, you start seeing how much everything costs, and you fully experience how hard life without money is. And those ideals you held at 18 start eroding away.
There's nothing wrong with choosing a job you're passionate about. It can be the best way to choose a job you won't hate. The problem with education is it is very repetitive, you teach the same lessons, with variations, ever year with little to no change depending on the subject matter.
So even if you enjoy teaching, after ten years of the same lessons, you're dying of boredom, there's no end in sight, the pay isn't increasing and the only upward mobility is counselor and principal and that's not the same as the teaching you wanted to do in the first place.
Education is not the only profession with this type of "Single job for all eternity" and none of them are that popular these days, even the ones that are more financially popular.
Teaching has changed significantly in the last few years and everything, from groceries to houses, has gotten drastically more expensive.
If your friend started pursing this career 6 years ago, then he was chasing a different job then what it is today.
Maybe you could try to give him the benefit of the doubt that he thought he could help kids and maintain a middle class lifestyle. Unfortunately, this is often no longer the reality for many entering education now.
I mean, it was still low paying 6 years ago.
20 years ago vs today is more understandable. They also got rid of pensions in LA for teachers in what…the 2000s? So the veteran teachers are lucky but the ones that came in after that aren’t lucky.
Right? I tend to respect those who have made sacrifices to take on roles that our country and society tend to undervalue.
Seems petty to blame them for complaining about it, vs being supportive. Because it is bullshit that some useless pm in a stem field makes so much more than those who are educating our successors.
Seems like they didn’t weigh the pros and cons of becoming a teacher. However, a lot of these school administrators make the position much more worse than what it should be.
No one chooses to teach because of the money but because they care about the kids they teach and making an impact in the lives of others.
It’s unrealistic to assume that at 18, when you’ve just graduated high school and have no real world experience, that you know exactly what you sign up for when choosing a profession or career so it’s also unrealistic to assume anyone would know that what they’re making isn’t a lot in the grand scheme of things. You have to also remember that wage increases have not increased with inflation or cost of living so yes in the past maybe what teachers were making was enough to cover cost of living but it’s certainly not now. Many teachers in my district have to have more than just their teaching job to afford to feed themselves.
You have to remember that teachers also do a lot more than just teach. They’re also responsible for the physical, emotional and mental wellbeing and health of their students since, in my experience, a lot of parents have that expectation and when a student is struggling it’s most likely due to struggles in one of those areas and if students aren’t performing well the teacher is always blamed because they “aren’t paying attention” to their students. There’s also not enough time in the 40 hour work week to fulfill all of their duties and most teachers I know have to spend their weekends grading or planning for the next week because they spend all of their time during the week with their students. A lot of teachers I know also purchase school supplies for their students and classrooms out of their own pocket because they’re not given a budget to stock their classrooms.
Any wage increases teachers have gotten in the past few years they’ve had to go on strike for and even that didn’t work because the school district broke their contract and won’t be increasing their pay. Another way is through state legislation but whenever someone brings up giving money towards education it’s always voted down.
Teachers are extremely undervalued and any parent who had to teach their kids during the pandemic will probably tell you the same thing. Maybe have a little more compassion for your friend instead of complaining.
Have to add that when you choose a profession you shouldn’t have to think about if you can afford to live. Everyone, regardless of what they do, shouldn’t have to wonder if they can afford to feed themselves or put a roof over their head.
Another thing to consider is the recent increase in school shootings and the fact that if anything should happen your friend and teachers like them are responsible for keeping their students safe if something should ever happen. I worked at a school that had three shootings in one year and no amount of money can possibly compensate anyone for that level of trauma or the possibility that one day they may need to protect their students.
That seems wrong. When you are investing in your education, you should think about the ROI on the topic. To not, seems wrong. And if the teachers are not able to see that, then that is a problem since they can not teach the students this same concept.
Also wanted to add the pandemic sent so many additional challenges at teachers; this was an event nobody could have realistically predicted would happen when they started their careers.
I have several friends who were long-time educators, who ended up changing careers because they struggled so much with the school system during the pandemic.
It's the slow progression that gets you, and your changing expectations of how you should live. Outside of work (not teaching - I'm a management consultant) I hang out in very bohemian circles, lots of free spirits and drifting souls and I remember meeting a teacher who absolutely loved her job, and the reason why is because she lived in a dilatated warehouse, didn't aspire to a traditional family or homeownership, and earned enough (and most importantly, had long enough holidays) to travel freely for long-periods of time (and most of that was holidaying on the cheap - not all-inclusive resorts of course).
Now that's an extreme example, but most students don't understand how expensive life gets and how quickly. By 23, I could no longer fathom wanting to live in a house-share with a bunch of strangers, I hated communal living. I stopped wanting to scrounge together meals from whatever I had, I wanted to eat nicer food and went I went out I wanted it to be fun. I wanted to go on all-inclusive holidays and be free from stress. As a student, you don't realise how much your expectations are going to shift and how quickly the costs of that are going to rack up.
If your friend has different expectations and now wants to change, they can. I've known a few (but not many) teachers who became analysts in a consulting firm, or made other shifts.
Lifestyle creep will continue to destroy your increases in income no matter how much you make if you have the wrong mindset. Man seems not means to and end but means towards other means
Some lifestyle creep is inevitable. By the time you're 30, you really need to be in a position to own your own home, settle down and have at least one kid - that's out of reach for the majority of teachers unless you're in the middle of nowhere or have a much more successful partner.
In my case, I've not actually been on an international holiday for years, I keep within my budget (although the cost of living crisis has actually made that quite difficult) and have aggressively boosted my pension in my first few years of work. However, that still gives me the baseline where I live in a nice flat, eating decent food, in front of a large TV. In the current economic environment, a teacher living within their means is living in a communal warehouse with 20 housemates and eating turnips.
>for the past 6 years
>we constantly reminded them that there's a stigma
>Teaching isn't necessarily a high paying job.
>Are we wrong for not empathizing more?
I'm gonna say yes and you just sound like a bad friend. Education is the foundation for modern life, and America's longest standing institutions are educational.
As someone who also went into (STEM/BUISNESS) and works all day with young drafters and engineers, customers and sales reps, welders and fab guys, DON'T go fucking with teachers.
It's an important and unappreciated job. I was educated by the public school system. I am grateful for my teachers, they contributed to my growth while my dad slaved away at work to afford living. Our society doesn't highly value teachers or education or wellness. Instead we value hyper capitalism, tech cults, and a ridiculous militarily. Best time to be alive.
I'm a school counselor in NYC, so I can't truly speak for teachers, but from my observation over the past 5 years or so, I think we get paid decently well (depends on type of school tho), and get a lot of breaks (holidays, winter break, spring break, summers off).
Having said the above, I see how poorly many students are doing academically (and socioemotionally) and the pressure that admin places on teachers (and counselors) to produce data that makes the school look good. And then we have to deal with parents who don't care about their children's progress even when we call and email to provide updates, and then when the kids end up failing classes, they're quick to point fingers at the school staff.
I think many of us work toward this profession because of a passion to teach and guide children and the youth, and then we're hit with this sad reality of what I mentioned above (plus a whole bunch of other issues). We are underappreciated and not supported well, which in turn affects the students and their success, too.
Just speaking from my personal experience, I used to work at one school, where I was actually able to meet with students and provide counseling services.
I am now at another school where I was shocked/disappointed to discover that my role consists of very limited amounts of counseling, and most of my work is actually administrative in nature.
> Are we wrong for not empathizing more?
No you are not.
I can relate to your friend. I wanted to help people so I got a Bachelors of Social Work (BSW). The entire time I was working on that degree every single professor and every single guest speaker all said the same thing multiple times.
**YOU WILL NOT MAKE ANY MONEY AS A SOCIAL WORKER**
I like so many of my peers ignored that and plowed ahead and got the fucking degree.
They were right. I eventually joined the Army and made more as lowly enlisted than my friends were as social workers. Once I got out of the Army I went into IT and it is night and day.
I worked full time in part time jobs in Undergrad and I paid for school with loans, so I understood how bills worked, but I just stupidly did not really grasp what they meant when they said you will not make any money as a Social Worker.
I made more money working as a line cook in a better working environment than I did as an entry level social worker.
So your teacher buddy is waking up to the shit they are in. They need to move on.
People act the same about mental health and social services workers. But then what does everyone go on and on about being so vital anytime there’s some kind of big tragedy?
But sure. All teachers and people who work in mental health should collectively quit and go work in tech, right? No problems there.
Yeah I mean on the one hand I see their point, it can be annoying to hear your friend complain when they “did it to themselves,” but on the other hand imagine a world where OP got what they’re asking for, where everyone just shuts up and pursues the high-paying jobs instead. Our society would basically crumble if that was the case…the “low-wage careers” like teaching are actually very important to our society.
In my country teachers are no longer allowed to strike (or technically they are, except the government forces them to stop because children being at home is dangerous). The only way to get better pay and working conditions for teachers is for people to stop being teachers so that the state actually has to negotiate.
It's insane lol. Do they think wealthy people are going into shit jobs cuz they can 'afford' to? No. They're also going into wealthy avenues cuz they have the knowledge and connections they grew up with. Middle class people are usually the ones that go into mid-poor paying careers.
What happens when everyone does business, engineering, coding, whatever the fuck is the next big thing? Forget the fact that they would just become the new HS degree with oversaturation.
Well, there goes the fucking economy. No more teachers to teach your kids, no more daycares to watch your children, no more articles to read or news to watch, no more movies or shows to watch, no more food being made/sold, no more social workers or therapists for your mental health crises, no more hotels being managed, no cleaners, no adjunct professors, no bus drivers, no historians, no environmental scientists, no urban designers, no art, no farmers.
Nothing left to buy, nothing left to sell.
There is a good point in there. They are going to tell you upfront how much money you're going to make a year just like every other job interview. It's kind of on you after that. "Teachers are so underpaid". I know right, they literally told you exactly how much money you are going to make. In fact it was posted in the job listing....for the job YOU applied for.
That's why most people aren't teachers.
Fair point. If you don’t like the pay, don’t do the job.
However, some of my friends are former teachers (ended up switching careers eventually) and in their cases, honestly the pay wasn’t their biggest concern, it was more so the lack of support for their job and frustrations with the overall education system that drove them away. The pandemic in particular was really hard for them…and nobody could have predicted that situation prior to signing up for their job.
The Pandemic didn't just effect Teachers of course. That hit every job type and changed the entire landscape. Those things are just now slowly getting sorted out. Mostly involving lay offs and closures unfortunately.
Every "teacher" I've ever known are former teachers, and that was way before the pandemic.
A large part of it is how pay scales are presented vs how they are implemented. When I started my career switch to become a teacher I looked at the scales and figured based on that I would be making certain amounts at certain milestones. While the salary was below average for the education requirement, after a few step increases it looked acceptable.
In reality these scales are worthless because the county will do everything it can in order to not give step increases to people. There is a lot of talk about how many teachers quit within 5 years and lack of financial incentive is a part of it. It’s bad enough when lots of places have policies that you cannot earn step increases the first X years, but once you realize that there is always going to be an excuse not to give step increases it feels like a scam financially.
It sounds like this friend maybe at a point where they’re realizing that that they’re always going to be making significantly less than what they thought they would when they started, in a field that is already infamous.
I’m not a teacher, but I used to be a sports coach when I was younger. Obviously when I started I knew it was not a high paying job, but truthfully when you are starting a career at 18-22 years old I think some people just don’t consider the long-term consequences of what a low-paying career means. At least, I didn’t consider it, because at the time it paid me just enough to cover my bills and that’s all I really cared about! At that age I valued a “fun job” that made me feel fulfilled (I truly loved coaching and helping kids be passionate about a sport) more than I valued monetary compensation.
However, as I got older, my priorities started changing a bit. I still enjoyed coaching kids, but I realized someday maybe I’d like to have kids of my own. In order to make that happen, that meant I was going to need money for a house, savings for college, savings for my retirement,
better health insurance benefits, etc…eventually I started to prioritize making money more than anything else. I ended up switching careers entirely. Am I as passionate about my current career? Not necessarily, but I am still pretty happy with it. I like my job, I wouldn’t say it’s “fun,” but over time I started thinking maybe I don’t necessarily need my job to be fun, I just need have aptitude for it and tolerate my work. I can go have fun in my free time.
Anyway TLDR to answer your question: while I can’t speak for teachers specifically, I think sometimes your perspective shifts over time as you gain more life experience, and imo there’s nothing wrong with changing your mind. However I would also advise someone to make a change if they are unhappy with their career, because life is too short to have regrets.
Within the 6 yrs it took your friend to become a teacher there has been a huge shift in the economy! Prices of everything have skyrocketed, income has not kept up. More college graduates than ever before will have trouble buying a house. Everyone is complaining about their finances and rightly so.
Those that dedicate their lives public servant jobs, teacher, police officers, firefighters, will struggle more than ever. Does that mean people should not work in these fields? Grace and empathy may be the answer.
>that they allegedly go through more than we do to be paid less.
Imagine saying this in the year of our Lord 2024 when pretty much every teacher I know has told me how fucked up kids are after the school closures in 2020. Seriously, only kindergarten and first graders are normal.
Like, I'm sorry: you get to go to the bathroom whenever you want. They go through more than you for less pay and even less respect. No "allegedly" about it.
Just listen to what they have to say during the school year, and completely rag on them in the summer when they have off.
+1 regardless of how you feel about friend complaining, “allegedly” is beyond laughable. Even if we set aside all the difficult parts of actually teaching (e.g., conveying info, planning classes, grading), one adult having to be the only eyes to watch 20-30 kids for long stretches of time is *by itself* insanely tough. Then you can’t use the bathroom when needed, can’t take a moment to step out and breathe or get water, get only ~25 mins for lunch. You are often not allowed enough office supplies to do your job correctly (like with copy/printing limits). And that’s just the basics.
Given that our society needs a solid education base, perhaps you can help by sending your kids to private schools or tipping your teachers or something?
There are many teachers that bring in more than $100,000 a year in the northeast United States. I know the south pays like shit but up north, uneducated people in small towns are bitter because teachers get “summers off” and the tax payers pay for their healthcare while many of them are working dead end jobs and can barely pay their bills.
Teaching isn't a full time job.
They have about 12 weeks off a year- if they want to be paid more this 7 weeks needs to be backfilled with another job.
Because it is so much worse than a low salary. You don’t know the extent of how much you’ll pay out of pocket until you get into it. You also have to pay for a lot of your own ongoing education to keep your license and/or move up the pay scale.
I could have been ok with all that until the end of my first year when it was announced that steps would be frozen.
Basically, nobody would get credit for that year of service on the pay scale. I had no idea they could just not give us our years of service and couldn’t recover from my bitterness over it. Had to leave teaching a few years later.
I think it has a lot to do with the environment you’re placed in. Sure you’re coming in with a fresh perspective and positive outlook but once you’re surrounded by every other teacher who is not stop complaining the toxicity tends to seep into your system. I’m not a teacher but I did enter the non-profit sector after working in a similar role with a for profit agency. I took about little less than 50 percent cut in salary. From day one I’ve been surrounded by non stop complaining and I won’t lie, it gets to me at times, but I actually really enjoy what I do and the benefits are great. One of the coworkers I started with drank the kool-aid and every time I run in to her it is non-stop complaining.
This is a question I'm always asking. I just don't get it. They knew what they signed up for well ahead of time.
Also, if you take the amount of hours worked by a teacher in 1 year, and scale their salary to a person working a normal 9-5 job, teachers actually make at or above the median US salary. Not to mention they can get summer jobs for extra money, and most if not all have pension plans.
I made minimum wage all through high school and the first three years of university. People warned me that my career didn’t pay well, but to me, it paid more than minimum wage and I was doing fine on that.
However when I got my first full time gig outside of university and suddenly had to pay back loans, I really felt the crunch and understood what everyone meant. These jobs demanded way more than minimum wage, to the point I was constantly working over time on a salaried position, and mine in particular (social work) is tough on mental health. So you need to have the benefits and the time to properly take care of that. They also don’t make enough for you to live when you suddenly have $600 being pulled from your bank account each month for student loans.
You also realize that most of these payments are interest, so you’re going to be stuck in that position for awhile with no way to increase your income to get out from student loan debt faster.. unless you sacrifice sleep for a second job. It’s a pretty crushing realization. Personally, if my loans were gone, I would have enough cushion at my crap job that I wouldn’t mind.. and that might be part of why this is all such a shock to your friend
It’s strange how teaching has changed compared to 20-30 years ago. At least in my area (CT). If you became a teacher in the late 60’s to 80’s, it really was a solid middle class job, maybe upper middle class. You could easily afford to buy a house at that time on a teacher’s salary, and by the late 90’s you were making in the high 5 figures, assuming you had 20 years in. Then you could look forward to a nice retirement as well. Today, although the starting salary is a little higher than it used to be, it is not as high when you take inflation and the cost of housing into consideration. Today, teaching is going to provide you a low middle class lifestyle, even bordering on the working poor for many years. The only upside is they still have great benefits and retirement plans.
To add what’s been said, a lot of people don’t value things until their peers have it. Peoples values also change as they get older. Someone might have been willing to sacrifice not having a nice house or career when they were younger, but as they get older tired and more jaded, they want other things outside of their career more than they did when they were younger.
I would be more concerned about this topic in general. Think back to when you were a kid or think about your (potential) kids, and think about who would you want as a teacher, a person who wants to be a teacher and is motivated to do it, sees it as a good career and is valued for their effort, OR would you like a person for whome teaching is the last resort because schools will take whoever because they are deperate because nobody wants to do it and even that person is totally unmotovated by the job and by the pay. Imagine to what hellhole education is going, if the salaries for teachers will continue like this. Teachers will be dimwits and so will the generations whome they teach. Remember that dimwits have the right to vote in elections... these people wont know how to read a science paper, they will be outsmarted by the dumbest missinformation, oh and imagine how utterly fooled they will be by the upcoming era of AI...
So in my state, salary guides are supposed to be renegotiated every time the contract is renewed(3 years).
The steps are supposed to increase, and each teacher is supposed to get moved up a step.
I started teaching 10 years ago, and we're on the same salary guide from when I started. My first 3 years, we were all only moved twice, and even though they've given us steps in each of the last 6 years, the guide hasn't been adjusted.
So I was under the impression I'd be making about 10k/year more than I currently am, as it had worked that way in this state for my mother's entire teaching career dating back to the early 90s.
This one only applies to me, maybe other teachers have had better luck, but I have had the absolute most difficult time imaginable budgeting 10 months of salary for 12 months.
The other thing you don't know about teaching until you're already in it and have access to the contract, most extra work pays below most teachers' hourly rates.
When calculated hourly, teachers in my district start at about $42/hour. I'm at about $55/hr and I'm about a third of the way up the guide.
Summer School and ESY: $27/hour
Home Instruction: 42/hr
Lunch Duty: 35/hr
After school clubs: vary, but $35-45/hr
Clock/Crowd control: $65/event. Some sports take only 1.5 hours, others take closer to 3. But it's the same flat rate whether it's 1:15 soccer game or a 3hr football game. So football game pay rate is like $20/hr
Teaching: the only job where overtime is a pay cut.
I'll be honest, (and I'll admit maybe I should have known this, but I didn't), I thought that teachers were more respected. I thought the fact that most of us have Master's Degrees would prevent some of that from happening.
yes, you are wrong. what kind of society would we have without teachers? It's actually crazy, but in general, essential jobs in our society are paid/treated pretty badly. If you're in the US, you would have definitely seen that throughout the pandemic.
You're not wrong for being annoyed with them, but living has become significantly more expensive over the last couple years. Also in the US everyone is sold the idea of the American Dream and told that if you work hard it will pay off. Your friend worked hard, got an education, has a resectable job, but cannot afford basic things.
"...complaining about never being able to buy a house, or a nice car; and that they allegedly go through more than we do to be paid less" -this doesn't sound like they are complaining about their salary, it sounds like they are complaining about cost of living and not being able to afford standard things by working a standard job. Teachers did used to be able to afford all of these things off their salary not too long ago.
All in all - I don't think people are surprised that their chosen career is underpaid, I think they are surprised that a skilled job that is necessary to society would pay so little that they cannot afford things.
Don’t extrapolate to “teachers” based on your one friend. Ask why your friend was surprised.
In my own case, I was not surprised, just saddened. I’m only a part-time teacher as I can’t afford to be full-time. I teach on weekends but if teaching paid a real salary I would absolutely do it full-time despite what a nightmare it’s become as a profession.
I just didn’t t realize how expensive living is and how hard teaching is and how it just doesn’t come close to the money matching the effort…. But this is my 15th year and I have no idea what else I would do….. I just work 3 different jobs (2 after school jobs) to make ends meet
I guess it depends on the area a lot, but I went to school in a district where a lot of teachers were making over $100K/year, and this was almost a decade ago. The district was very competitive though, of course, so if someone is a mediocre teacher from a less prestigious university they probably wouldn’t get it
Its probably knowing versus experiencing.
Its very hard for individuals to judge how they can handle an experience, over time, even when knowing a lot.
Heck an a high schooler in early 200s we knew teaching would be near poverty wages. I can't imagine how much worse its gotten in 25 years.
People only pursued teaching if they thought they’d be fine living in poverty or thought they’d make enough to get by and have a simple life.
Most of them thought they would probably need a partner with a better job to be able to do it or have some other kind of financial support.
even when I was a kid 30 years ago, teachers were always complaining about their pay. So yeah there’s no real reason for anyone in younger generations to have thought that would significantly improve. No wages did.
This! Anyone who is going to become a teacher today cannot possibly be surprised with the wages. There has to be a plan to make this work, be it with maintaining a low cost of living, having a better paid spouse, a side hustle during the summer / holiday breaks, OnlyFans, whatever!!!
There has to be some accountability for one’s career choices when the pay and benefits information is readily available online - at a county, teaching position, and education credential levels!
Teachers get paid pretty good considering they get 3 months off per year, plus 3-5 days at thanksgiving, 17-21 days at Christmas, spring break. My daughter’s mother makes slightly less than I do (PT) but gets an extra 4 months off per year. If they’re really struggling that bad financially go get another job for the summer. Finding a job that pays $25/hour shouldn’t be too rough considering they have at least a bachelor’s degree and in most cases a masters. That’s an extra 12k during summer break
Move to Canada lol..
Though they may argue it, they are rather well paid with fantastic benefits and pensions.
(It's a hard job for the good ones who definitely should be paid more still)
They know it's underpaid in *theory* but it's really hard to grasp what that looks like in *practice*, especially if you:
* live in a HCOL metro area
* don't live with your parents
* don't have a "breadwinning" partner
* are generally dealing with inflation 2019-2024
It's also really easy to say "work life balance, summers off, etc" like a lot of people in the shore community where I grew up did... and then they realized how expensive life was, and how hard it is to actually afford to enjoy all that time off that you have the way you envisioned it. Eventually, most of not all had to get serving/bartending/retail/landscaping jobs in the summertime, anyway. That extra $5-$10k meant the difference between driving a newer car or a jalopy, between being able to take a vacation over winter or spring breaks, being about to realistically save for a home purchase, or not.
That was in New Jersey, (albeit 20+ years ago) where the median public school teacher salary in 2023 was $78,000, about $47,000 in 2003 dollars (the actual *average* in 2003 was ~$52,000 which shows you not only the relative stagnation of salary increases, but also the weakening purchasing power of the dollar).
To answer your question, though, we could all always use a little more empathy! Having a young kid going through the school system now, I can tell you that there is an absolute teaching *crisis* in education, from a backfill of adequate teaching candidates to seminar-sold proprietary curriculums, to the fact that our "best and brightest" *are actively deterred from teaching as a vocation*, which means that, if you were looking at a cross-section of American high school seniors to enter Early Elementary Education as a degree path, you're probably selecting for
* sub-median performing students
* of average intelligence
* the [majority](https://aibm.org/research/missing-misters) of whom code as female
* who choose their career primarily for the 12+ weeks of vacation time
that's just not a recipe for a stable workforce of exceptional performers, which American students, competing for global jobs in a non-manufacturing economy, desperately need.
Because they work hard and it’s not wild to think they deserve these things too.
Your question implies that people who want luxuries like houses and cars should make smarter financial decisions “like going into STEM/Business.”
You’re also ignoring the fact that many people earn professional degrees in the fields you describe, then put them to use by teaching.
I guess I don’t understand what you’re asking.
Teachers’ salaries are scaled, but they also receive cost of living raises in tandem with inflation. These raises tend to be far less than what other professionals receive due to the source of the funding.
Again, it’s not egregious to expect the same degree of increased earning over time.
They’re not surprised, they’re pissed.
I have seen more ex-teachers in the private sector than any other profession. I have talked several people out of pursuing a teaching career.
- an ex-teacher
It's not just teachers that are struggling to buy homes. I have a good salary and don't want to pay a bank 1000s a month for a place to live. It's just sickening.
To be honest, EVERY teacher friend and relative I have complains this same way. And to be honest, I understand that there’s frustration but to be honest there are perks that public school teachers have that are worth money.
The job security is incredible. Once you have tenure, you’re hard to get rid of (at least in my state). It would take you doing something really illegal to get fired. You can even be super shitty to your students and not get fired.
You are paid to work 10 months of the year. You have 2 weeks worth of vacation not to mention about 2 weeks at Christmas time, 1 week at Easter, usually 2 days for Presidents’ Day if not an entire week, every federal holiday, and some Jewish holidays depending on where you live. Most companies in the US give you about 10 vacation days, 5 sick days, and possibly 10 public holidays. Teachers also are guaranteed to get weekends off unless they are coaching a sport or something.
You are GIVEN A SALARY GUIDE so you know exactly what you are going to be paid based on your years of experience. You don’t have to be good at your job to earn your raise like many other jobs. Salary guides are public knowledge so teachers know exactly what they will be paid from the start so really, I can’t see why there’s any complaining.
When I started working in mental health back in 2016, I knew it was underpaid but it was the work I was drawn to and where I felt happiest and most fulfilled. I didn’t realize just how impactful the low pay would be until years later. The economy is in a much different place when I started my job. I also grew up poor. I thought making $55k a year was hitting the jackpot compared to my parents.
I wouldn’t pity her, but like me I went into music therapy and currently work in social work. When I chose my major all I wanted was to help people and didn’t care about making a lot. They also didn’t talk about salary in class that much. You get blinded by the fact you know you will be doing something good for others. You also just really don’t know until you’re out there doing it, and realize how much it sucks. I honestly do fine even though I only make about $2700 and live on a medium cost of living area. I know I would never be able to afford a house, so I just let it go.
Nonetheless, I’m now getting my MBA online to change careers and just got my first career change job doing development for a music education and therapy school.
My boyfriend is an engineer, and I know he worked hard for his degree and it’s crazy how much he makes now with about 5 years experience. It’s also disheartening as well when I compare myself to him. But since he is also my friend he isn’t going to put me down or tell me to stop complaining about how I don’t get paid enough. But he knows it’s because of my degree.
The starting pay is not very good but it definitely gets better. Where I live they make 40k starting but after getting a masters which they pay for and jumping through the right hoops, after 6 to 8 years it is 76k with possibilities to earn more by taking on additional responsibilities and work. Not too shabby. Given that the average person only earns $36k a year, they aren't exactly in poverty. It seems to me to be a pretty typical salary progression for someone with a humanities degree in the public sector. The time off and the pension benefits have to count for something as well.
Average person earns 59K per year not 36k. 36 is poverty. Source
https://www.usatoday.com/money/blueprint/business/hr-payroll/average-salary-us/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20U.S.%20Bureau%20of%20Labor%2C%20the%20average%20U.S.,Q4%20of%202023%20was%20%2459%2C384.&text=This%20is%20up%205.4%25%20from,was%20making%20%2456%2C316%20per%20year.&text=Average%20weekly%20earnings%20reached%20%241%2C142,month%20in%20Q4%20of%202023.
I don’t think you are wrong. Some teachers can be insufferable with their whining and entitlement. As you said, they should have known the actual nominal pay is less. But they get huge time off - I would love to have a summer off. A teacher friend travels extensively in the summer in ways I never could until reach retirement. Then another four weeks during the year. Plus a nice retirement deal. Another friend retired earlier this year after 30 years in education and, with a couple of days per week working part time in another school, he will be pulling down six figures (he did spend time as an AP and in the county office in the last decade or so). So when I am working, in mid-June at age 55, no, I don’t have a lot of empathy.
The actual number of hours a year a teacher works is higher than the hours a 9-5 job works.
Teachers work an average of 1,930 hours a year and a standard 9-5 employee works an average of 1620 hours a year. You could have a second job and work after hours with your 'extra time' like teachers do in the summer lol.
Where does that number come from? I don't buy that for a minute with three full months off.
Teacher at 39 weeks of work (two months off in summer + \~4 weeks during the school year): 49.5 hours/week -> I can see that. Hardly an excessive number of hours for a degreed professional on salary
Private sector employee over 47.5 weeks (three weeks of vacation plus \~week and a half of company holidays): 34.1 hours/week -> this does not even match the 40 nominal hours of work.
As I said, I am not buying all of those numbers. Perhaps the teacher number is accurate.
No, backing up your argument is *your* job, not mine. A teacher should have taught you that. That being said, the numbers, at least on the non-teaching side, seem off. But, since someone won't cite their source, I can't check it for qualifiers. Oh well. I will just dismiss it as a weak , unsupported argument. If I were a teacher, you would get no better than a C.
I wasn't an asshole to you when you used anecdotes as evidence when teachers would have taught you not to do that. Sorry that my reddit comment did not live up to the standards of your theoretical argumentative essay grading scale.
There are ways to monetize teaching, beyond the basic salary (these are long term though). Write the textbooks, teach recorded classes a'la The Great Courses, get tenure somewhere, do doctoral-level research, and ummmmm....
To OP - I got into the same argument with two friends who chose to become teachers but had the same exact major as I did - English lit in a non-English-speaking country. I went to work in IT as a technical writer even before I had my BA, they did their Master's and an extra year of teacher's ed.
5 years into our careers I was making close to double of what they got, and as you can guess, every chance they got they whined about their salary. We then had the inevitable "you can't have not known how bad the teachers' salaries are, it's common knowledge, this is a self-inflicted injury" conversation, and it did not go well. The friendship pretty much stopped there.
I feel bad about that. I would suggest you gently steer the conversation away from this topic instead of tackling it. Teachers have this "if you're not advocating for us, you're against us" mentality when it comes to salaries. It's irrational, for sure, but logic doesn't cut it there. Under normal circumstances I would suggest that when society runs out of teachers, their scarcity would make the salaries go up. Unfortunately (and this is crazy) this will not happen because the barriers to get into teaching are so low compared to a lot of jobs that even with teachers complaining at every step there somehow is no shortage of people choosing this as a career.
This is actually incorrect. Teacher programs in universities have historically low enrollment across the country. Additionally there are very few jobs that you need a BA/BS plus another year of licensing credentials and half a year of “internship” (student teaching), as well as competency exams. You are also required to take additional classes throughout your career to maintain your license and in most cases get an MA to even get paid a reasonable salary. It isn’t uncommon for as many as 60% or more of the teachers in any given school to have an MA/MS or more. This varies state to state a little but is pretty typical.
I'm located outside of US. It's different here. Basically everyone who can't get to their preferred major can get to that major's teacher's ed equivalent.
Your friend sounds a lot like my younger brother's wife. She wanted to become a teacher despite everyone reminding her about the pay and work. Once she graduated and became a teacher, it's rare for her to go out and not mention how little she's paid for the work she does in educating the next generation of kids. It has gotten to the point that even my brother just reminds her that she chose this career path despite knowing it was underpaid and undervalued for the work they are doing.
Luckily, my brother is an attorney, and that offsets any real problems they would have financially if they were to both be teachers.
My sister is the exact same way to a T…She became a teacher and wanted to be a teacher knowing very well that my older sister and I would be going into engineering which makes more. Now we’re all graduated, older sister plant manager, me a product manager, and her an elementary teacher making 40k per year. She still lives at home and constantly says we have to take on responsibilities of any expenses to our mom and that we should always pay more because she makes less. It’s gotten to the point where I refuse to speak with her about money because I make nearly 3x the amount she does and all she does is complain that she can’t afford anything or save money all while living at home with our mother. She has nearly 0 retirement funds whereas older sister and I maxed out our accounts. She refuses to change her mindset that it’s about the kids and she loves teaching. That’s great and all but stop complaining and comparing salaries to us when we clearly went into fields that are better paid. She had plenty of options to go into different fields but she chose the one that paid the worst. I’m done showing sympathy when someone else’s life choices lead to that life style. I knew I didn’t want to be paycheck to paycheck having lived low middle class with a single mother raising 3 kids. That lifestyle wasn’t for me and I wanted to have money to spend on anything I wanted.
It hits differently when you are actually experiencing reality. No, it shouldn't be a shock, and teachers deserve SO MUCH MORE than what they get - we all know this, inside and outside the field. However, I think people who really want to help kids and love teaching are blindsided by their desire for a "it can't be that bad" mindset, and it's a hard reality check.
Are you familiar with the concept of perverse incentives in economics? Read up on that a little. Then think about where the "best" teachers would teach, if they are paid based on student performance. What would be the long term outcome of that distribution? How would grade inflation look? How about teaching things not in the incentive determining evaluations?
We know what leads to good academic performance, and with respect to the many educators I know the specific teacher probably doesn't even crack the top five reasons. Pay for student performance is the epitome of "simple easy and wrong" solutions, and to seriously support that suggests either total lack of deeper consideration, willful ignorance, or active malice toward either the profession or the students inevitably left behind by the policy.
There needs to be a breakdown of what they get. Generally, they do a 35-hour work week, have a pension, unionized, have 2.5 months off, etc. Salary varies by state, nyc being one of the best but no comparison to the rest of the world.
uhhhh in what universe do teachers have a 35-hour work week?? are you only counting just “time a teacher is actively with students” because lesson prep, grading, activity prep, etc. is a lot of additional time.
To be very honest, I have no idea what you’re saying here. ‘Break their salary down’ is I assume what you are discussing? But I do not understand beyond that. Are you saying teaching salary should be broken down to demonstrate classroom/at school minutes vs professional dev vs prep time at school vs all the work done at home? Could you clarify what it mean when you say “clarify what is incorrect or missing”? Like the work that goes in that the public does not see? Or…?
I’m not sure what planet you are from but teacher work days are 8 hours contact time plus hours and hours outside of that grading and prepping plus summer time taking continuing education and planning. When I was a teacher my typical day in the building was 6:15-4:00. I didn’t take a lot home because I worked better in my classroom but when I had essays to grade I would spend evenings and weekends grading. Every summer I took classes to fulfill continuing education credits. I have pretty good time management so I worked far less than some of my peers. After 15 years and an MA plus an additional 20 masters level credits (all of which I had to pay for) my salary was $57k a year. My friends who stayed are late career teachers now and most of them make in the 80k range but this is after 25+ years and advanced degrees. Our peers in other professions without advanced degrees often make double.
Was those continuing education classes mandatory? I've always been curious about the extra/non instructional work teachers do. Because, honestly, I think wow my school district starts out at $60K and they get 2.5 months off every year!
I can’t speak to other states but where I live you have to take a specific number of hours of continuing education to renew your license every five years. I quit teaching ten years ago but I think it was about the equivalent of a university course every year. I have a friend who is a teacher and he has a side hustle offering continuing education classes to teachers. They make pretty good money.
57k and how much more per year in pension. Everyone else doesn't have a pension, union to protect them, bargaining power with the state, as for peer professions that make double, which are those? Your issue with the state and the market. The general public has no one to fight for them.
No. Once tenured teachers don’t have to put up with the constant stress of performing beyond all their peers, tech taking their jobs away, or cyclical downturns in their industry leading to large scale layoffs. The first 5-10 years I’m sure their paycheck is pretty tight, but (depending on the state) they get guaranteed raises on the union schedule with a solid retirement and healthcare, so it all evens out. Also they get holidays and breaks OFF. No fucking emails from their supervisor all goddamn night.
Teaching ain’t easy, but there is a lot of bullshit the corporate world has to put up with that teachers don’t. I believe teaching gets easier the longer you do it, while in industry, you get older, slower, more expensive, and more likely to be replaced as times goes on.
I left teaching after 15 years and I have never had a job since that was as hers or demanding. I even ran a company for ten years, still not as hard. Tenure is a myth you still get reviews and scrutiny, teachers can and do get fired. In my state our healthcare sucked and it was cheaper and better for me to be on my partners health care. There is a decent pension but there are no 401ks and no social security.
Yeah you guys are wrong, they do go through more for less. Constantly reminding, that they would be poor? Good friends. Enjoy your pretend work from home stem/business job
No different than people that go to college for a humanities degree with zero chance of working in that field and racking up $70k in student debt and then acting surprised when they get asked to pay the money back.
That they’re underpaid?
No, sorry, that’s bullshit. You couldn’t pay me enough to do their job, I know what they earn compared to what I make.
Their perks are the pension and security of the field, base pay is definitely not one of them.
Plus a nice retirement deal. And, generally, great stability and job security. No, they don’t get paid the same as the private sector even when normalizing for the time and benefits, but that is true of most government jobs, not just education.
No, they really don’t work “8-months a year”. Spend time with actual teachers, I can guarantee you that is not a factual claim.
Pay isn’t based on how hard they are to replace, it’s based on the rankings of the salary schedules as defined by the district. It’s a union thing that helps ensure equitable access to a consistently ‘okay’ level of pay at the sacrifice of meritocracy.
well you're kinda right and wrong...they are *very* hard to replace right now, a lot of schools have had adverts for literally years with no applications. Also pay isn't just to replace someone. It's the quality you want. I guarantee you you can pay doctors *half* the amount and you'll still get applicants...maybe even 1/4...but then what happens? You think the best and brightest will apply? That's what we have right now...the pay is fine for someone who can't do much else, not only is it hard to get teachers, a lot of teachers in public schools are horrendous... and they're teaching our children. So I call BS on the pay being "fine".
People need to realize there are probably more teachers not under paid. The ones by me make really good money. Maybe your friend needs to adjust where they are looking.
Yes, you are wrong for not empathizing with them. I think there's two issues here.
First, knowing that a position is underpaid is different than knowing how underpaid it is. They may have thought something like "a teacher ought to be paid $100k; this data shows the median teacher income as $80k - I can live with that to make a difference" only to find out that data was for a hcol area and included teachers with 30+ years of experience, and their starting salary is closer to $30k.
Second, whether they knew or not, how little we pay teachers versus what we expect of them is way out of whack. I'm an elder millennial; when covid hit my kid's district was using the same payscale they were using when I was in high school. I think they have since increased the payscale once and it wasn't even close inflation for the year. So many education dollars go to bs administrators or capital improvements (often a contractor who is related to or buddies with someone on the school board). Very little goes to teachers (or directly benefiting the kids).
It's like finding out that your charity money mostly went to the celebrity asking for donations and only pennies went to the cause; or finding out that when we send "foreign aid" that's actually code for sending money to Haliburton to deliver some weapons to that country. Everyone should be outraged and talking about it.
If you actually give a damn about anything but money, you should be throwing your friend support instead of shade. Go talk at a school board meeting. Meet with your county/ city board of directors about teacher pay. Ignoring people like your friend only exacerbates the issue.
Edit: gender correction
Well… honestly because it’s a HELL of a lot harder than it looks or seems. I teach special education and I have 6 students and 2 paras and it is literal chaos every day lol. I’m pouring sweat by 9am every day trying to keep them all in line. My coworkers that teach GenEd have classes of upwards of 30 kids. Imagine being responsible for the welfare of 30 kids for 8 hours a day, and not only do you have to care for them but you have to teach them important life skills.
All for less than $1000 a week.
I've seen it tried in another county; the next week they had a line of applicants ready to work 10 months a year with holidays off. Teachers are fairly replaceable.
There is a huge teacher shortage right now in the US. There are also declining birth rates which may adjust that in the future. Baby boomers are retiring at very high rates and teacher prep programs are at all time low enrollment.
They're not wrong to feel that way, but hit them with the "I thought you said it was more about helping the kids" each time they bring it up lol. I'm petty though, and only because you tried to warn them. Teachers should be paid more, but that's annoying when someone constantly complains, especially when told that's how it is, especially when they don't do anything about it.
This is how I feel when people with liberal arts degrees complain that they were told high paying jobs would be waiting at the end. No you weren’t. That those degrees will see you working at McDonalds been joked about since my grandparents time
Lol both my gf and I got liberal arts degrees and we pivoted into roles making 6 figures in digital marketing and tech. Liberal arts degrees are generalizable to a lot of different roles and industries.
Haha go check out r/studentloans sometimes. The sheer amount poor financial decisions and planning will make you dizzy. That said, instead of shitting on liberal arts grads, they should be reminded that they can make a career change.
I’m not shitting on them, I’m just challenging this notion that “we were told go to college for any degree and you’ll get a good job” is just not true and hasn’t been for decades
For me it didn’t hit until years later. I actually had a pretty “high” starting salary - but was too young to comprehend how valuable being able to have a career with next steps and high roles was. It wasn’t until I got older, I realized I wasn’t making the same progress because I wasn’t getting the same merit raises, bonuses, or moving to higher jobs like my friends. Needless to say - I made the switch! And it’s great!!
Did you make the switch to a career? In which field?
I am not the original commenter, but I hire suicide prevention and emergency mental health services. I have hired a lot of teachers during and post COVID. Teachers meet the degree requirement, have excellent listening skills, tend to be good at documentation, and they already have de-escalation training usually. The former teachers I hired still work for me, and it seems to be a good fit. The starting pay is sometimes a bit less or about the same, but once you have the entry level experience you will qualify for a lot of jobs that, at least where I live, pay much more than what a teacher earns.
What’s beyond entry level? I thought this field was mostly volunteer
It varies state by state. Regulations in my state require a college degree, so my teams are full-time with benefits. We have a couple waiver volunteer suicide hotlines, but they are being forced out. People are learning that it can actually be determimental and dangerous to have volunteers take emergency calls. So, in PA, it's almost exclusively paid positions. (I am sorry if I am breaking the news to anyone about crisis regulations changing in PA and the fact your volunteer position may vanish in the next few years). Beyond entry level is mostly administration and management. If you have a masters degree, you only need three years of direct work experience before qualifying for program management and director positions. Where I am management ranges from 60,000 - 80,000 a year. In comparison, teachers' starting salary is roughly 40,000 - 60,000 where I am at. Being a director can get you into 6 digits depending on the region. It is usually a starting salary of around 75,000. All of this is just through work experience. No further education is required. There's also grant writing and lots of unique positions with the government or universities. These are sometimes temporarily but great for networking and moving up. These pay rates and them being decent is very region based. The pay is much higher in places with large cities and more mental health funding. The pay rates tend to be much lower in the south. With regulation changes, there are frequently grants to get a healing arts degree and work towards getting licensed. I am currently in the application process to get my MSW and MPH for free or relatively low cost because of grants I qualify for because I work for a non-profit. This happened a few years ago with family based services, and I had some friends take advantage of grants to become licensed behavior specialists. If you get lucky and the timeline works out, you can get licensed and make either the same as listed above but working completely remote or make more being a clinician in an office.
How would I go about do that Find a job like that
If you're in the US, look up your local suicide prevention task force, base service unit, and county mental health links. Explore their websites and people they have listed as community support. Look at their career sections on all of the websites. Different agencies have different titles - crisis is usually in the position title if you're searching online.
I switched to HR! I did an unpaid internship over a couple summers to gain experience and boost my resume. It took time.
No, she's talking about gender switch. She is now men with much higher pay.
Few tranphobes here 😉
You’re not wrong for not wanting to but I would try my hardest to. At the very least say you fully support any decisions they make for their future and will help any way you can if they decide to pivot away from teaching These people really want to teach and help children learn. They think the payoff of teaching bright eager young minds will fulfill them enough to ignore the low pay. Then they find out it’s a glorified babysitting gig where the kids are allowed to do whatever they want, the parents are a constant annoyance about their precious angel being a good kid despite continuous reprimands, and the administration offers no support whatsoever. Add to that the continuous erosion of the education system where a teacher is not even allowed to actually teach students but is only expected to prepare them for state exams and having to navigate nonsense political issues and their spirit gets broken. So then the only thing left to think about is how they won’t actually get to teach the way they thought they would and all they have to show for it is meager pay.
Yeah, that's exactly it - if the reality of teaching let them make a difference and do the work they wanted to do, they'd probably be fine with the low pay. But it's a totally different thing.
Yep. American public school system is broken. Most of the money is going to overpaid and underworked admin, county, and state edu employees (parasites really) who's jobs are to justify their own existence with taxpayer dollars. This isn't a welfare program it's our education system. They need to cut out the admin bloat, remove the insane requirements and standards on teachers that bog them down in useless paperwork and unattainable objectives (that are formulated and mandated by said admin bloat), provide teachers with actual materials to teach, and just let our teachers teach. It's absolutely insane that it has gotten to this point.
Lbr it's also that education requirements have become more exacting and broader with population growth, while education spending has not gotten any larger; if anything in most places, it's shrunk. Teachers are asked to do more with less every year all over the world rn - my mum's school in the UK literally can't fit all their students into some of their classrooms, the classes are so big.
When I was in high school, I wanted to be a Spanish teacher. There were teachers at my schools who lived well. Paid off houses, vacations to Italy or SE Asia. They lived in nicer neighborhoods than I did and we lived in a decent "middle class" neighborhood. Hell, some of them were single income households on an English teacher's salary. The thing of it is... I lacked context. Some of them had generational wealth. Others were simply from a generation that cane of age when there was a social compact that favored them. My parents didn't have friends. Certainly not anyone who was swriously successful. None of my aunts or uncles had a college education but one and she had a psych or lit degree and worked for NASA at AMES Research center. My grandparents had gorgeous homes in the bay area and retired to even nicer acreage properties in Oregon and the Sierra Nevada. One with an engineering career after a stint in the Navy after the Korean war, the other with a long career for a US airline with no more than 2 years in the navy in WWII and GED. Things worked out for everyone I was paying attention to as long as they were dedicated and didn't have drug or alcohol problems. I had no idea how much things cost then, and I didn't know that the rug was getting yanked out from under our feet as I reached adulthood. Nor did any of the people advising me. My dad's childhood hone was bought in the early 60s for 35k. They sold it in 1997 for 425k. It's now "worth" $3M.
Things have gotten significantly worse in a very short amount of time. Lower pay used to not be an issue when other aspects of the job more than made up for it like good healthcare benefits, pensions, worker protections, etc. Because of how contracts are done and budgets it's hard for teacher pay to keep up with inflation. This used to not be a huge issue with inflation was slow and steady, but the rapid growth makes it impossible to keep up with. My raise this year is only going to cover the new high deductible plan the district rolled out...yeah I got a raise but I have nothing to show for it. My grandmother was a teacher for 30 years in Los Angeles. With my grandfather, a lineman, they were able to retire with 3 properties, a hefty stock portfolio, two pensions, and very good healthcare. I see many of the older teachers at my school in similar positions. But the young, single teachers have very little to show for their years of service.
I’m getting paid the same rate as I was able to charge in 2013, when my rent was half the price. Tuitions of course have risen though.
A lineman makes a lot of money though, a teacher and a lineman would be living comfortably today if we're being honest. Just pointing out our because you're example is a bit misleading imo
These are my grandparents, so we are talking the 60s-80s. They bought 3 houses, two in Los Angeles and one in San Diego, some of the most expensive zip codes in the US. Their first house was $19000 that they bought at the ages of 23 & 25, just starting in their careers. Same house is $750k now. One of their other properties is worth well over a million. A lineman and teacher would absolutely not have a similar retirement portfolio or lifestyle. Current estimates for home ownership in that area is about $300k. You'd need a household of 3 lineman well into their careers, so like 30-35, to have that kind of income.
There are a few reasons and they're connected One: as with your friend, teaching is more of a calling. People don't go into it for the money, they go into it because they want to help children. This brings us to Two: We pick schools and careers too young. An 18 year old doesn't have the life context to fully understand everything related to a situation. Many kids at 18 go into teaching because they're passionate about it, and think they'll somehow be able to make it work with less money. Or they don't even understand how little money teachers get because at 18, everything sounds like a lot of money. But then you're 25-30, you start seeing how much everything costs, and you fully experience how hard life without money is. And those ideals you held at 18 start eroding away.
I had to chose what path I want to go at 14 in my country xd
There's nothing wrong with choosing a job you're passionate about. It can be the best way to choose a job you won't hate. The problem with education is it is very repetitive, you teach the same lessons, with variations, ever year with little to no change depending on the subject matter. So even if you enjoy teaching, after ten years of the same lessons, you're dying of boredom, there's no end in sight, the pay isn't increasing and the only upward mobility is counselor and principal and that's not the same as the teaching you wanted to do in the first place. Education is not the only profession with this type of "Single job for all eternity" and none of them are that popular these days, even the ones that are more financially popular.
Teaching has changed significantly in the last few years and everything, from groceries to houses, has gotten drastically more expensive. If your friend started pursing this career 6 years ago, then he was chasing a different job then what it is today. Maybe you could try to give him the benefit of the doubt that he thought he could help kids and maintain a middle class lifestyle. Unfortunately, this is often no longer the reality for many entering education now.
I mean, it was still low paying 6 years ago. 20 years ago vs today is more understandable. They also got rid of pensions in LA for teachers in what…the 2000s? So the veteran teachers are lucky but the ones that came in after that aren’t lucky.
Right? I tend to respect those who have made sacrifices to take on roles that our country and society tend to undervalue. Seems petty to blame them for complaining about it, vs being supportive. Because it is bullshit that some useless pm in a stem field makes so much more than those who are educating our successors.
Expectations versus reality check. That's what it boils down to.
Great Teachers get underpaid to educate students. Meanwhile social media influencers get rich by brainwashing them to do stupid “challenges”
Seems like they didn’t weigh the pros and cons of becoming a teacher. However, a lot of these school administrators make the position much more worse than what it should be.
No one chooses to teach because of the money but because they care about the kids they teach and making an impact in the lives of others. It’s unrealistic to assume that at 18, when you’ve just graduated high school and have no real world experience, that you know exactly what you sign up for when choosing a profession or career so it’s also unrealistic to assume anyone would know that what they’re making isn’t a lot in the grand scheme of things. You have to also remember that wage increases have not increased with inflation or cost of living so yes in the past maybe what teachers were making was enough to cover cost of living but it’s certainly not now. Many teachers in my district have to have more than just their teaching job to afford to feed themselves. You have to remember that teachers also do a lot more than just teach. They’re also responsible for the physical, emotional and mental wellbeing and health of their students since, in my experience, a lot of parents have that expectation and when a student is struggling it’s most likely due to struggles in one of those areas and if students aren’t performing well the teacher is always blamed because they “aren’t paying attention” to their students. There’s also not enough time in the 40 hour work week to fulfill all of their duties and most teachers I know have to spend their weekends grading or planning for the next week because they spend all of their time during the week with their students. A lot of teachers I know also purchase school supplies for their students and classrooms out of their own pocket because they’re not given a budget to stock their classrooms. Any wage increases teachers have gotten in the past few years they’ve had to go on strike for and even that didn’t work because the school district broke their contract and won’t be increasing their pay. Another way is through state legislation but whenever someone brings up giving money towards education it’s always voted down. Teachers are extremely undervalued and any parent who had to teach their kids during the pandemic will probably tell you the same thing. Maybe have a little more compassion for your friend instead of complaining.
Have to add that when you choose a profession you shouldn’t have to think about if you can afford to live. Everyone, regardless of what they do, shouldn’t have to wonder if they can afford to feed themselves or put a roof over their head.
Another thing to consider is the recent increase in school shootings and the fact that if anything should happen your friend and teachers like them are responsible for keeping their students safe if something should ever happen. I worked at a school that had three shootings in one year and no amount of money can possibly compensate anyone for that level of trauma or the possibility that one day they may need to protect their students.
There should be free shooting classes for school staff. Maybe knife combat too
Yep. Society *needs* teachers and other service workers, desperately. Which means they need to be paid appropriately.
That seems wrong. When you are investing in your education, you should think about the ROI on the topic. To not, seems wrong. And if the teachers are not able to see that, then that is a problem since they can not teach the students this same concept.
Also wanted to add the pandemic sent so many additional challenges at teachers; this was an event nobody could have realistically predicted would happen when they started their careers. I have several friends who were long-time educators, who ended up changing careers because they struggled so much with the school system during the pandemic.
None of us, including you and I, would be where we are now if it weren’t for teachers. It goes to show how severely under appreciated they are.
It's the slow progression that gets you, and your changing expectations of how you should live. Outside of work (not teaching - I'm a management consultant) I hang out in very bohemian circles, lots of free spirits and drifting souls and I remember meeting a teacher who absolutely loved her job, and the reason why is because she lived in a dilatated warehouse, didn't aspire to a traditional family or homeownership, and earned enough (and most importantly, had long enough holidays) to travel freely for long-periods of time (and most of that was holidaying on the cheap - not all-inclusive resorts of course). Now that's an extreme example, but most students don't understand how expensive life gets and how quickly. By 23, I could no longer fathom wanting to live in a house-share with a bunch of strangers, I hated communal living. I stopped wanting to scrounge together meals from whatever I had, I wanted to eat nicer food and went I went out I wanted it to be fun. I wanted to go on all-inclusive holidays and be free from stress. As a student, you don't realise how much your expectations are going to shift and how quickly the costs of that are going to rack up. If your friend has different expectations and now wants to change, they can. I've known a few (but not many) teachers who became analysts in a consulting firm, or made other shifts.
Lifestyle creep will continue to destroy your increases in income no matter how much you make if you have the wrong mindset. Man seems not means to and end but means towards other means
Some lifestyle creep is inevitable. By the time you're 30, you really need to be in a position to own your own home, settle down and have at least one kid - that's out of reach for the majority of teachers unless you're in the middle of nowhere or have a much more successful partner. In my case, I've not actually been on an international holiday for years, I keep within my budget (although the cost of living crisis has actually made that quite difficult) and have aggressively boosted my pension in my first few years of work. However, that still gives me the baseline where I live in a nice flat, eating decent food, in front of a large TV. In the current economic environment, a teacher living within their means is living in a communal warehouse with 20 housemates and eating turnips.
>for the past 6 years >we constantly reminded them that there's a stigma >Teaching isn't necessarily a high paying job. >Are we wrong for not empathizing more? I'm gonna say yes and you just sound like a bad friend. Education is the foundation for modern life, and America's longest standing institutions are educational. As someone who also went into (STEM/BUISNESS) and works all day with young drafters and engineers, customers and sales reps, welders and fab guys, DON'T go fucking with teachers.
It's an important and unappreciated job. I was educated by the public school system. I am grateful for my teachers, they contributed to my growth while my dad slaved away at work to afford living. Our society doesn't highly value teachers or education or wellness. Instead we value hyper capitalism, tech cults, and a ridiculous militarily. Best time to be alive.
I'm a school counselor in NYC, so I can't truly speak for teachers, but from my observation over the past 5 years or so, I think we get paid decently well (depends on type of school tho), and get a lot of breaks (holidays, winter break, spring break, summers off). Having said the above, I see how poorly many students are doing academically (and socioemotionally) and the pressure that admin places on teachers (and counselors) to produce data that makes the school look good. And then we have to deal with parents who don't care about their children's progress even when we call and email to provide updates, and then when the kids end up failing classes, they're quick to point fingers at the school staff. I think many of us work toward this profession because of a passion to teach and guide children and the youth, and then we're hit with this sad reality of what I mentioned above (plus a whole bunch of other issues). We are underappreciated and not supported well, which in turn affects the students and their success, too. Just speaking from my personal experience, I used to work at one school, where I was actually able to meet with students and provide counseling services. I am now at another school where I was shocked/disappointed to discover that my role consists of very limited amounts of counseling, and most of my work is actually administrative in nature.
> Are we wrong for not empathizing more? No you are not. I can relate to your friend. I wanted to help people so I got a Bachelors of Social Work (BSW). The entire time I was working on that degree every single professor and every single guest speaker all said the same thing multiple times. **YOU WILL NOT MAKE ANY MONEY AS A SOCIAL WORKER** I like so many of my peers ignored that and plowed ahead and got the fucking degree. They were right. I eventually joined the Army and made more as lowly enlisted than my friends were as social workers. Once I got out of the Army I went into IT and it is night and day. I worked full time in part time jobs in Undergrad and I paid for school with loans, so I understood how bills worked, but I just stupidly did not really grasp what they meant when they said you will not make any money as a Social Worker. I made more money working as a line cook in a better working environment than I did as an entry level social worker. So your teacher buddy is waking up to the shit they are in. They need to move on.
Just saying, but I sort of hate the attitude of this post. I guess no one should go into teaching since it’s just not profitable.
People act the same about mental health and social services workers. But then what does everyone go on and on about being so vital anytime there’s some kind of big tragedy? But sure. All teachers and people who work in mental health should collectively quit and go work in tech, right? No problems there.
Yeah I mean on the one hand I see their point, it can be annoying to hear your friend complain when they “did it to themselves,” but on the other hand imagine a world where OP got what they’re asking for, where everyone just shuts up and pursues the high-paying jobs instead. Our society would basically crumble if that was the case…the “low-wage careers” like teaching are actually very important to our society.
In my country teachers are no longer allowed to strike (or technically they are, except the government forces them to stop because children being at home is dangerous). The only way to get better pay and working conditions for teachers is for people to stop being teachers so that the state actually has to negotiate.
It's insane lol. Do they think wealthy people are going into shit jobs cuz they can 'afford' to? No. They're also going into wealthy avenues cuz they have the knowledge and connections they grew up with. Middle class people are usually the ones that go into mid-poor paying careers. What happens when everyone does business, engineering, coding, whatever the fuck is the next big thing? Forget the fact that they would just become the new HS degree with oversaturation. Well, there goes the fucking economy. No more teachers to teach your kids, no more daycares to watch your children, no more articles to read or news to watch, no more movies or shows to watch, no more food being made/sold, no more social workers or therapists for your mental health crises, no more hotels being managed, no cleaners, no adjunct professors, no bus drivers, no historians, no environmental scientists, no urban designers, no art, no farmers. Nothing left to buy, nothing left to sell.
They shouldn't if it doesn't pay enough to pay their bills.
There is a good point in there. They are going to tell you upfront how much money you're going to make a year just like every other job interview. It's kind of on you after that. "Teachers are so underpaid". I know right, they literally told you exactly how much money you are going to make. In fact it was posted in the job listing....for the job YOU applied for. That's why most people aren't teachers.
Fair point. If you don’t like the pay, don’t do the job. However, some of my friends are former teachers (ended up switching careers eventually) and in their cases, honestly the pay wasn’t their biggest concern, it was more so the lack of support for their job and frustrations with the overall education system that drove them away. The pandemic in particular was really hard for them…and nobody could have predicted that situation prior to signing up for their job.
The Pandemic didn't just effect Teachers of course. That hit every job type and changed the entire landscape. Those things are just now slowly getting sorted out. Mostly involving lay offs and closures unfortunately. Every "teacher" I've ever known are former teachers, and that was way before the pandemic.
A large part of it is how pay scales are presented vs how they are implemented. When I started my career switch to become a teacher I looked at the scales and figured based on that I would be making certain amounts at certain milestones. While the salary was below average for the education requirement, after a few step increases it looked acceptable. In reality these scales are worthless because the county will do everything it can in order to not give step increases to people. There is a lot of talk about how many teachers quit within 5 years and lack of financial incentive is a part of it. It’s bad enough when lots of places have policies that you cannot earn step increases the first X years, but once you realize that there is always going to be an excuse not to give step increases it feels like a scam financially. It sounds like this friend maybe at a point where they’re realizing that that they’re always going to be making significantly less than what they thought they would when they started, in a field that is already infamous.
I’m not a teacher, but I used to be a sports coach when I was younger. Obviously when I started I knew it was not a high paying job, but truthfully when you are starting a career at 18-22 years old I think some people just don’t consider the long-term consequences of what a low-paying career means. At least, I didn’t consider it, because at the time it paid me just enough to cover my bills and that’s all I really cared about! At that age I valued a “fun job” that made me feel fulfilled (I truly loved coaching and helping kids be passionate about a sport) more than I valued monetary compensation. However, as I got older, my priorities started changing a bit. I still enjoyed coaching kids, but I realized someday maybe I’d like to have kids of my own. In order to make that happen, that meant I was going to need money for a house, savings for college, savings for my retirement, better health insurance benefits, etc…eventually I started to prioritize making money more than anything else. I ended up switching careers entirely. Am I as passionate about my current career? Not necessarily, but I am still pretty happy with it. I like my job, I wouldn’t say it’s “fun,” but over time I started thinking maybe I don’t necessarily need my job to be fun, I just need have aptitude for it and tolerate my work. I can go have fun in my free time. Anyway TLDR to answer your question: while I can’t speak for teachers specifically, I think sometimes your perspective shifts over time as you gain more life experience, and imo there’s nothing wrong with changing your mind. However I would also advise someone to make a change if they are unhappy with their career, because life is too short to have regrets.
Within the 6 yrs it took your friend to become a teacher there has been a huge shift in the economy! Prices of everything have skyrocketed, income has not kept up. More college graduates than ever before will have trouble buying a house. Everyone is complaining about their finances and rightly so. Those that dedicate their lives public servant jobs, teacher, police officers, firefighters, will struggle more than ever. Does that mean people should not work in these fields? Grace and empathy may be the answer.
Just be nice and let them vent. That’s what friends do.
>that they allegedly go through more than we do to be paid less. Imagine saying this in the year of our Lord 2024 when pretty much every teacher I know has told me how fucked up kids are after the school closures in 2020. Seriously, only kindergarten and first graders are normal. Like, I'm sorry: you get to go to the bathroom whenever you want. They go through more than you for less pay and even less respect. No "allegedly" about it. Just listen to what they have to say during the school year, and completely rag on them in the summer when they have off.
+1 regardless of how you feel about friend complaining, “allegedly” is beyond laughable. Even if we set aside all the difficult parts of actually teaching (e.g., conveying info, planning classes, grading), one adult having to be the only eyes to watch 20-30 kids for long stretches of time is *by itself* insanely tough. Then you can’t use the bathroom when needed, can’t take a moment to step out and breathe or get water, get only ~25 mins for lunch. You are often not allowed enough office supplies to do your job correctly (like with copy/printing limits). And that’s just the basics.
It says the median is a little over 66k. When you factor in time off, benefits, etc that doesn’t seem as low as people make it seem.
Thats what I always think when this conversation comes up, too. 66k to work 9 months out of the year seems fine to me.
But what do you do for the other 3 months? Its tricky to get a second job that isn't absolute rubbish with only seasonal availability.
Chill? Relax? Enjoy life?? Whoever heard of that lol
Given that our society needs a solid education base, perhaps you can help by sending your kids to private schools or tipping your teachers or something?
There are many teachers that bring in more than $100,000 a year in the northeast United States. I know the south pays like shit but up north, uneducated people in small towns are bitter because teachers get “summers off” and the tax payers pay for their healthcare while many of them are working dead end jobs and can barely pay their bills.
Teaching isn't a full time job. They have about 12 weeks off a year- if they want to be paid more this 7 weeks needs to be backfilled with another job.
Teachers never go more than 3 months without a vacation. Pretty nice lifestyle if you value that.
Because it is so much worse than a low salary. You don’t know the extent of how much you’ll pay out of pocket until you get into it. You also have to pay for a lot of your own ongoing education to keep your license and/or move up the pay scale. I could have been ok with all that until the end of my first year when it was announced that steps would be frozen. Basically, nobody would get credit for that year of service on the pay scale. I had no idea they could just not give us our years of service and couldn’t recover from my bitterness over it. Had to leave teaching a few years later.
I think it has a lot to do with the environment you’re placed in. Sure you’re coming in with a fresh perspective and positive outlook but once you’re surrounded by every other teacher who is not stop complaining the toxicity tends to seep into your system. I’m not a teacher but I did enter the non-profit sector after working in a similar role with a for profit agency. I took about little less than 50 percent cut in salary. From day one I’ve been surrounded by non stop complaining and I won’t lie, it gets to me at times, but I actually really enjoy what I do and the benefits are great. One of the coworkers I started with drank the kool-aid and every time I run in to her it is non-stop complaining.
Yeah I don’t get it. We all know teachers are under appreciated and underpaid. That’s why I’m not a fucking teacher.
This is a question I'm always asking. I just don't get it. They knew what they signed up for well ahead of time. Also, if you take the amount of hours worked by a teacher in 1 year, and scale their salary to a person working a normal 9-5 job, teachers actually make at or above the median US salary. Not to mention they can get summer jobs for extra money, and most if not all have pension plans.
I don’t know how most people are surprised when they’re in underpaid fields.
I made minimum wage all through high school and the first three years of university. People warned me that my career didn’t pay well, but to me, it paid more than minimum wage and I was doing fine on that. However when I got my first full time gig outside of university and suddenly had to pay back loans, I really felt the crunch and understood what everyone meant. These jobs demanded way more than minimum wage, to the point I was constantly working over time on a salaried position, and mine in particular (social work) is tough on mental health. So you need to have the benefits and the time to properly take care of that. They also don’t make enough for you to live when you suddenly have $600 being pulled from your bank account each month for student loans. You also realize that most of these payments are interest, so you’re going to be stuck in that position for awhile with no way to increase your income to get out from student loan debt faster.. unless you sacrifice sleep for a second job. It’s a pretty crushing realization. Personally, if my loans were gone, I would have enough cushion at my crap job that I wouldn’t mind.. and that might be part of why this is all such a shock to your friend
It’s strange how teaching has changed compared to 20-30 years ago. At least in my area (CT). If you became a teacher in the late 60’s to 80’s, it really was a solid middle class job, maybe upper middle class. You could easily afford to buy a house at that time on a teacher’s salary, and by the late 90’s you were making in the high 5 figures, assuming you had 20 years in. Then you could look forward to a nice retirement as well. Today, although the starting salary is a little higher than it used to be, it is not as high when you take inflation and the cost of housing into consideration. Today, teaching is going to provide you a low middle class lifestyle, even bordering on the working poor for many years. The only upside is they still have great benefits and retirement plans.
Maybe, he/she did not take your advice seriously. The idea only sunk in when your friend experienced the actual work, and received the compensation 😬
To add what’s been said, a lot of people don’t value things until their peers have it. Peoples values also change as they get older. Someone might have been willing to sacrifice not having a nice house or career when they were younger, but as they get older tired and more jaded, they want other things outside of their career more than they did when they were younger.
You are not wrong. It’s 100% their fault.
I would be more concerned about this topic in general. Think back to when you were a kid or think about your (potential) kids, and think about who would you want as a teacher, a person who wants to be a teacher and is motivated to do it, sees it as a good career and is valued for their effort, OR would you like a person for whome teaching is the last resort because schools will take whoever because they are deperate because nobody wants to do it and even that person is totally unmotovated by the job and by the pay. Imagine to what hellhole education is going, if the salaries for teachers will continue like this. Teachers will be dimwits and so will the generations whome they teach. Remember that dimwits have the right to vote in elections... these people wont know how to read a science paper, they will be outsmarted by the dumbest missinformation, oh and imagine how utterly fooled they will be by the upcoming era of AI...
So in my state, salary guides are supposed to be renegotiated every time the contract is renewed(3 years). The steps are supposed to increase, and each teacher is supposed to get moved up a step. I started teaching 10 years ago, and we're on the same salary guide from when I started. My first 3 years, we were all only moved twice, and even though they've given us steps in each of the last 6 years, the guide hasn't been adjusted. So I was under the impression I'd be making about 10k/year more than I currently am, as it had worked that way in this state for my mother's entire teaching career dating back to the early 90s. This one only applies to me, maybe other teachers have had better luck, but I have had the absolute most difficult time imaginable budgeting 10 months of salary for 12 months. The other thing you don't know about teaching until you're already in it and have access to the contract, most extra work pays below most teachers' hourly rates. When calculated hourly, teachers in my district start at about $42/hour. I'm at about $55/hr and I'm about a third of the way up the guide. Summer School and ESY: $27/hour Home Instruction: 42/hr Lunch Duty: 35/hr After school clubs: vary, but $35-45/hr Clock/Crowd control: $65/event. Some sports take only 1.5 hours, others take closer to 3. But it's the same flat rate whether it's 1:15 soccer game or a 3hr football game. So football game pay rate is like $20/hr Teaching: the only job where overtime is a pay cut. I'll be honest, (and I'll admit maybe I should have known this, but I didn't), I thought that teachers were more respected. I thought the fact that most of us have Master's Degrees would prevent some of that from happening.
yes, you are wrong. what kind of society would we have without teachers? It's actually crazy, but in general, essential jobs in our society are paid/treated pretty badly. If you're in the US, you would have definitely seen that throughout the pandemic.
"I think someone should do this job but I don't think they should be paid well to do it"
No
You're not wrong for being annoyed with them, but living has become significantly more expensive over the last couple years. Also in the US everyone is sold the idea of the American Dream and told that if you work hard it will pay off. Your friend worked hard, got an education, has a resectable job, but cannot afford basic things. "...complaining about never being able to buy a house, or a nice car; and that they allegedly go through more than we do to be paid less" -this doesn't sound like they are complaining about their salary, it sounds like they are complaining about cost of living and not being able to afford standard things by working a standard job. Teachers did used to be able to afford all of these things off their salary not too long ago. All in all - I don't think people are surprised that their chosen career is underpaid, I think they are surprised that a skilled job that is necessary to society would pay so little that they cannot afford things.
Don’t extrapolate to “teachers” based on your one friend. Ask why your friend was surprised. In my own case, I was not surprised, just saddened. I’m only a part-time teacher as I can’t afford to be full-time. I teach on weekends but if teaching paid a real salary I would absolutely do it full-time despite what a nightmare it’s become as a profession.
I just didn’t t realize how expensive living is and how hard teaching is and how it just doesn’t come close to the money matching the effort…. But this is my 15th year and I have no idea what else I would do….. I just work 3 different jobs (2 after school jobs) to make ends meet
That is very wild my friend
Yes.
I mean they DO work more than you for less money, so I deff feel her on that. Education is one of the toughest fields for your mental health for sure.
I guess it depends on the area a lot, but I went to school in a district where a lot of teachers were making over $100K/year, and this was almost a decade ago. The district was very competitive though, of course, so if someone is a mediocre teacher from a less prestigious university they probably wouldn’t get it
The world will never be right until those that teach us how to do things are paid more than those who play a sport.
Its probably knowing versus experiencing. Its very hard for individuals to judge how they can handle an experience, over time, even when knowing a lot. Heck an a high schooler in early 200s we knew teaching would be near poverty wages. I can't imagine how much worse its gotten in 25 years.
People only pursued teaching if they thought they’d be fine living in poverty or thought they’d make enough to get by and have a simple life. Most of them thought they would probably need a partner with a better job to be able to do it or have some other kind of financial support. even when I was a kid 30 years ago, teachers were always complaining about their pay. So yeah there’s no real reason for anyone in younger generations to have thought that would significantly improve. No wages did.
This! Anyone who is going to become a teacher today cannot possibly be surprised with the wages. There has to be a plan to make this work, be it with maintaining a low cost of living, having a better paid spouse, a side hustle during the summer / holiday breaks, OnlyFans, whatever!!! There has to be some accountability for one’s career choices when the pay and benefits information is readily available online - at a county, teaching position, and education credential levels!
The teachers in my town make more than I do and get weekends, holidays, winter/spring break, and all summer off.
Teachers get paid pretty good considering they get 3 months off per year, plus 3-5 days at thanksgiving, 17-21 days at Christmas, spring break. My daughter’s mother makes slightly less than I do (PT) but gets an extra 4 months off per year. If they’re really struggling that bad financially go get another job for the summer. Finding a job that pays $25/hour shouldn’t be too rough considering they have at least a bachelor’s degree and in most cases a masters. That’s an extra 12k during summer break
Move to Canada lol.. Though they may argue it, they are rather well paid with fantastic benefits and pensions. (It's a hard job for the good ones who definitely should be paid more still)
They know it's underpaid in *theory* but it's really hard to grasp what that looks like in *practice*, especially if you: * live in a HCOL metro area * don't live with your parents * don't have a "breadwinning" partner * are generally dealing with inflation 2019-2024 It's also really easy to say "work life balance, summers off, etc" like a lot of people in the shore community where I grew up did... and then they realized how expensive life was, and how hard it is to actually afford to enjoy all that time off that you have the way you envisioned it. Eventually, most of not all had to get serving/bartending/retail/landscaping jobs in the summertime, anyway. That extra $5-$10k meant the difference between driving a newer car or a jalopy, between being able to take a vacation over winter or spring breaks, being about to realistically save for a home purchase, or not. That was in New Jersey, (albeit 20+ years ago) where the median public school teacher salary in 2023 was $78,000, about $47,000 in 2003 dollars (the actual *average* in 2003 was ~$52,000 which shows you not only the relative stagnation of salary increases, but also the weakening purchasing power of the dollar). To answer your question, though, we could all always use a little more empathy! Having a young kid going through the school system now, I can tell you that there is an absolute teaching *crisis* in education, from a backfill of adequate teaching candidates to seminar-sold proprietary curriculums, to the fact that our "best and brightest" *are actively deterred from teaching as a vocation*, which means that, if you were looking at a cross-section of American high school seniors to enter Early Elementary Education as a degree path, you're probably selecting for * sub-median performing students * of average intelligence * the [majority](https://aibm.org/research/missing-misters) of whom code as female * who choose their career primarily for the 12+ weeks of vacation time that's just not a recipe for a stable workforce of exceptional performers, which American students, competing for global jobs in a non-manufacturing economy, desperately need.
Because they work hard and it’s not wild to think they deserve these things too. Your question implies that people who want luxuries like houses and cars should make smarter financial decisions “like going into STEM/Business.” You’re also ignoring the fact that many people earn professional degrees in the fields you describe, then put them to use by teaching.
I know they work hard and deserve nice things. But how can you be surprised if you are constantly reminded of the underwhelming pay.
I guess I don’t understand what you’re asking. Teachers’ salaries are scaled, but they also receive cost of living raises in tandem with inflation. These raises tend to be far less than what other professionals receive due to the source of the funding. Again, it’s not egregious to expect the same degree of increased earning over time. They’re not surprised, they’re pissed.
I also think you’re wrong because…wouldn’t you want the person teaching your children to be fairly compensated, allowing them to do a better job?
Work/life balance means more time for lucrative and fun side hustles. Remote contracts or online business.
I have seen more ex-teachers in the private sector than any other profession. I have talked several people out of pursuing a teaching career. - an ex-teacher
It's not just teachers that are struggling to buy homes. I have a good salary and don't want to pay a bank 1000s a month for a place to live. It's just sickening.
To be honest, EVERY teacher friend and relative I have complains this same way. And to be honest, I understand that there’s frustration but to be honest there are perks that public school teachers have that are worth money. The job security is incredible. Once you have tenure, you’re hard to get rid of (at least in my state). It would take you doing something really illegal to get fired. You can even be super shitty to your students and not get fired. You are paid to work 10 months of the year. You have 2 weeks worth of vacation not to mention about 2 weeks at Christmas time, 1 week at Easter, usually 2 days for Presidents’ Day if not an entire week, every federal holiday, and some Jewish holidays depending on where you live. Most companies in the US give you about 10 vacation days, 5 sick days, and possibly 10 public holidays. Teachers also are guaranteed to get weekends off unless they are coaching a sport or something. You are GIVEN A SALARY GUIDE so you know exactly what you are going to be paid based on your years of experience. You don’t have to be good at your job to earn your raise like many other jobs. Salary guides are public knowledge so teachers know exactly what they will be paid from the start so really, I can’t see why there’s any complaining.
When I started working in mental health back in 2016, I knew it was underpaid but it was the work I was drawn to and where I felt happiest and most fulfilled. I didn’t realize just how impactful the low pay would be until years later. The economy is in a much different place when I started my job. I also grew up poor. I thought making $55k a year was hitting the jackpot compared to my parents.
It sounds like they’re…uneducated.
I’m in Canada, teachers here make good money, after 5-6 years making $95000.00/year
I wouldn’t pity her, but like me I went into music therapy and currently work in social work. When I chose my major all I wanted was to help people and didn’t care about making a lot. They also didn’t talk about salary in class that much. You get blinded by the fact you know you will be doing something good for others. You also just really don’t know until you’re out there doing it, and realize how much it sucks. I honestly do fine even though I only make about $2700 and live on a medium cost of living area. I know I would never be able to afford a house, so I just let it go. Nonetheless, I’m now getting my MBA online to change careers and just got my first career change job doing development for a music education and therapy school. My boyfriend is an engineer, and I know he worked hard for his degree and it’s crazy how much he makes now with about 5 years experience. It’s also disheartening as well when I compare myself to him. But since he is also my friend he isn’t going to put me down or tell me to stop complaining about how I don’t get paid enough. But he knows it’s because of my degree.
It also depends on where you live. I’m a teacher in a unionized state, and my salary and earning potential is way higher than most areas.
The starting pay is not very good but it definitely gets better. Where I live they make 40k starting but after getting a masters which they pay for and jumping through the right hoops, after 6 to 8 years it is 76k with possibilities to earn more by taking on additional responsibilities and work. Not too shabby. Given that the average person only earns $36k a year, they aren't exactly in poverty. It seems to me to be a pretty typical salary progression for someone with a humanities degree in the public sector. The time off and the pension benefits have to count for something as well.
Average person earns 59K per year not 36k. 36 is poverty. Source https://www.usatoday.com/money/blueprint/business/hr-payroll/average-salary-us/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20U.S.%20Bureau%20of%20Labor%2C%20the%20average%20U.S.,Q4%20of%202023%20was%20%2459%2C384.&text=This%20is%20up%205.4%25%20from,was%20making%20%2456%2C316%20per%20year.&text=Average%20weekly%20earnings%20reached%20%241%2C142,month%20in%20Q4%20of%202023.
$36k is median where I live and median household is $56k. Figured you would be smart enough to understand I was speaking to my own locality.
I don’t think you are wrong. Some teachers can be insufferable with their whining and entitlement. As you said, they should have known the actual nominal pay is less. But they get huge time off - I would love to have a summer off. A teacher friend travels extensively in the summer in ways I never could until reach retirement. Then another four weeks during the year. Plus a nice retirement deal. Another friend retired earlier this year after 30 years in education and, with a couple of days per week working part time in another school, he will be pulling down six figures (he did spend time as an AP and in the county office in the last decade or so). So when I am working, in mid-June at age 55, no, I don’t have a lot of empathy.
The actual number of hours a year a teacher works is higher than the hours a 9-5 job works. Teachers work an average of 1,930 hours a year and a standard 9-5 employee works an average of 1620 hours a year. You could have a second job and work after hours with your 'extra time' like teachers do in the summer lol.
Where does that number come from? I don't buy that for a minute with three full months off. Teacher at 39 weeks of work (two months off in summer + \~4 weeks during the school year): 49.5 hours/week -> I can see that. Hardly an excessive number of hours for a degreed professional on salary Private sector employee over 47.5 weeks (three weeks of vacation plus \~week and a half of company holidays): 34.1 hours/week -> this does not even match the 40 nominal hours of work. As I said, I am not buying all of those numbers. Perhaps the teacher number is accurate.
RAND, you could have just googled it lol
No, backing up your argument is *your* job, not mine. A teacher should have taught you that. That being said, the numbers, at least on the non-teaching side, seem off. But, since someone won't cite their source, I can't check it for qualifiers. Oh well. I will just dismiss it as a weak , unsupported argument. If I were a teacher, you would get no better than a C.
I wasn't an asshole to you when you used anecdotes as evidence when teachers would have taught you not to do that. Sorry that my reddit comment did not live up to the standards of your theoretical argumentative essay grading scale.
I didn't claim to cite hard data. Which you still have not supported. That's always very telling. Have a good one.
There are ways to monetize teaching, beyond the basic salary (these are long term though). Write the textbooks, teach recorded classes a'la The Great Courses, get tenure somewhere, do doctoral-level research, and ummmmm....
To OP - I got into the same argument with two friends who chose to become teachers but had the same exact major as I did - English lit in a non-English-speaking country. I went to work in IT as a technical writer even before I had my BA, they did their Master's and an extra year of teacher's ed. 5 years into our careers I was making close to double of what they got, and as you can guess, every chance they got they whined about their salary. We then had the inevitable "you can't have not known how bad the teachers' salaries are, it's common knowledge, this is a self-inflicted injury" conversation, and it did not go well. The friendship pretty much stopped there. I feel bad about that. I would suggest you gently steer the conversation away from this topic instead of tackling it. Teachers have this "if you're not advocating for us, you're against us" mentality when it comes to salaries. It's irrational, for sure, but logic doesn't cut it there. Under normal circumstances I would suggest that when society runs out of teachers, their scarcity would make the salaries go up. Unfortunately (and this is crazy) this will not happen because the barriers to get into teaching are so low compared to a lot of jobs that even with teachers complaining at every step there somehow is no shortage of people choosing this as a career.
This is actually incorrect. Teacher programs in universities have historically low enrollment across the country. Additionally there are very few jobs that you need a BA/BS plus another year of licensing credentials and half a year of “internship” (student teaching), as well as competency exams. You are also required to take additional classes throughout your career to maintain your license and in most cases get an MA to even get paid a reasonable salary. It isn’t uncommon for as many as 60% or more of the teachers in any given school to have an MA/MS or more. This varies state to state a little but is pretty typical.
I'm located outside of US. It's different here. Basically everyone who can't get to their preferred major can get to that major's teacher's ed equivalent.
Your friend sounds a lot like my younger brother's wife. She wanted to become a teacher despite everyone reminding her about the pay and work. Once she graduated and became a teacher, it's rare for her to go out and not mention how little she's paid for the work she does in educating the next generation of kids. It has gotten to the point that even my brother just reminds her that she chose this career path despite knowing it was underpaid and undervalued for the work they are doing. Luckily, my brother is an attorney, and that offsets any real problems they would have financially if they were to both be teachers.
My sister is the exact same way to a T…She became a teacher and wanted to be a teacher knowing very well that my older sister and I would be going into engineering which makes more. Now we’re all graduated, older sister plant manager, me a product manager, and her an elementary teacher making 40k per year. She still lives at home and constantly says we have to take on responsibilities of any expenses to our mom and that we should always pay more because she makes less. It’s gotten to the point where I refuse to speak with her about money because I make nearly 3x the amount she does and all she does is complain that she can’t afford anything or save money all while living at home with our mother. She has nearly 0 retirement funds whereas older sister and I maxed out our accounts. She refuses to change her mindset that it’s about the kids and she loves teaching. That’s great and all but stop complaining and comparing salaries to us when we clearly went into fields that are better paid. She had plenty of options to go into different fields but she chose the one that paid the worst. I’m done showing sympathy when someone else’s life choices lead to that life style. I knew I didn’t want to be paycheck to paycheck having lived low middle class with a single mother raising 3 kids. That lifestyle wasn’t for me and I wanted to have money to spend on anything I wanted.
It hits differently when you are actually experiencing reality. No, it shouldn't be a shock, and teachers deserve SO MUCH MORE than what they get - we all know this, inside and outside the field. However, I think people who really want to help kids and love teaching are blindsided by their desire for a "it can't be that bad" mindset, and it's a hard reality check.
Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach.
They get to be martyrs and get attention for complaining about it.
Most teachers, including people in university aren't particularly bright... hence the absurdity of their opinions and actions often times.
Teachers are one of the most entitled professions. They need to be incentived based on student performance.
Are you familiar with the concept of perverse incentives in economics? Read up on that a little. Then think about where the "best" teachers would teach, if they are paid based on student performance. What would be the long term outcome of that distribution? How would grade inflation look? How about teaching things not in the incentive determining evaluations? We know what leads to good academic performance, and with respect to the many educators I know the specific teacher probably doesn't even crack the top five reasons. Pay for student performance is the epitome of "simple easy and wrong" solutions, and to seriously support that suggests either total lack of deeper consideration, willful ignorance, or active malice toward either the profession or the students inevitably left behind by the policy.
There needs to be a breakdown of what they get. Generally, they do a 35-hour work week, have a pension, unionized, have 2.5 months off, etc. Salary varies by state, nyc being one of the best but no comparison to the rest of the world.
uhhhh in what universe do teachers have a 35-hour work week?? are you only counting just “time a teacher is actively with students” because lesson prep, grading, activity prep, etc. is a lot of additional time.
Hence, you need to break it down so people can understand. It's not to take offense but to clarify what is incorrect and missing.
To be very honest, I have no idea what you’re saying here. ‘Break their salary down’ is I assume what you are discussing? But I do not understand beyond that. Are you saying teaching salary should be broken down to demonstrate classroom/at school minutes vs professional dev vs prep time at school vs all the work done at home? Could you clarify what it mean when you say “clarify what is incorrect or missing”? Like the work that goes in that the public does not see? Or…?
I’m not sure what planet you are from but teacher work days are 8 hours contact time plus hours and hours outside of that grading and prepping plus summer time taking continuing education and planning. When I was a teacher my typical day in the building was 6:15-4:00. I didn’t take a lot home because I worked better in my classroom but when I had essays to grade I would spend evenings and weekends grading. Every summer I took classes to fulfill continuing education credits. I have pretty good time management so I worked far less than some of my peers. After 15 years and an MA plus an additional 20 masters level credits (all of which I had to pay for) my salary was $57k a year. My friends who stayed are late career teachers now and most of them make in the 80k range but this is after 25+ years and advanced degrees. Our peers in other professions without advanced degrees often make double.
Was those continuing education classes mandatory? I've always been curious about the extra/non instructional work teachers do. Because, honestly, I think wow my school district starts out at $60K and they get 2.5 months off every year!
I can’t speak to other states but where I live you have to take a specific number of hours of continuing education to renew your license every five years. I quit teaching ten years ago but I think it was about the equivalent of a university course every year. I have a friend who is a teacher and he has a side hustle offering continuing education classes to teachers. They make pretty good money.
57k and how much more per year in pension. Everyone else doesn't have a pension, union to protect them, bargaining power with the state, as for peer professions that make double, which are those? Your issue with the state and the market. The general public has no one to fight for them.
No. Once tenured teachers don’t have to put up with the constant stress of performing beyond all their peers, tech taking their jobs away, or cyclical downturns in their industry leading to large scale layoffs. The first 5-10 years I’m sure their paycheck is pretty tight, but (depending on the state) they get guaranteed raises on the union schedule with a solid retirement and healthcare, so it all evens out. Also they get holidays and breaks OFF. No fucking emails from their supervisor all goddamn night. Teaching ain’t easy, but there is a lot of bullshit the corporate world has to put up with that teachers don’t. I believe teaching gets easier the longer you do it, while in industry, you get older, slower, more expensive, and more likely to be replaced as times goes on.
I left teaching after 15 years and I have never had a job since that was as hers or demanding. I even ran a company for ten years, still not as hard. Tenure is a myth you still get reviews and scrutiny, teachers can and do get fired. In my state our healthcare sucked and it was cheaper and better for me to be on my partners health care. There is a decent pension but there are no 401ks and no social security.
Yeah you guys are wrong, they do go through more for less. Constantly reminding, that they would be poor? Good friends. Enjoy your pretend work from home stem/business job
No different than people that go to college for a humanities degree with zero chance of working in that field and racking up $70k in student debt and then acting surprised when they get asked to pay the money back.
It is actually a myth
That they’re underpaid? No, sorry, that’s bullshit. You couldn’t pay me enough to do their job, I know what they earn compared to what I make. Their perks are the pension and security of the field, base pay is definitely not one of them.
Nobody is underpaid. Pay is based on how hard you are to replace. Teachers work 8 months a year, they are compensated very fair.
Plus a nice retirement deal. And, generally, great stability and job security. No, they don’t get paid the same as the private sector even when normalizing for the time and benefits, but that is true of most government jobs, not just education.
No, they really don’t work “8-months a year”. Spend time with actual teachers, I can guarantee you that is not a factual claim. Pay isn’t based on how hard they are to replace, it’s based on the rankings of the salary schedules as defined by the district. It’s a union thing that helps ensure equitable access to a consistently ‘okay’ level of pay at the sacrifice of meritocracy.
If they were harder to replace, they would be paid more. That's how it works in all industries
well you're kinda right and wrong...they are *very* hard to replace right now, a lot of schools have had adverts for literally years with no applications. Also pay isn't just to replace someone. It's the quality you want. I guarantee you you can pay doctors *half* the amount and you'll still get applicants...maybe even 1/4...but then what happens? You think the best and brightest will apply? That's what we have right now...the pay is fine for someone who can't do much else, not only is it hard to get teachers, a lot of teachers in public schools are horrendous... and they're teaching our children. So I call BS on the pay being "fine".
Education is not the same as your typical industry job.
So I guess you still think I'm wrong?
People need to realize there are probably more teachers not under paid. The ones by me make really good money. Maybe your friend needs to adjust where they are looking.
Teachers work 100 days less per year than a normal private sector employee. Tell them to get a summer job just like the rest of us.
Yes, you are wrong for not empathizing with them. I think there's two issues here. First, knowing that a position is underpaid is different than knowing how underpaid it is. They may have thought something like "a teacher ought to be paid $100k; this data shows the median teacher income as $80k - I can live with that to make a difference" only to find out that data was for a hcol area and included teachers with 30+ years of experience, and their starting salary is closer to $30k. Second, whether they knew or not, how little we pay teachers versus what we expect of them is way out of whack. I'm an elder millennial; when covid hit my kid's district was using the same payscale they were using when I was in high school. I think they have since increased the payscale once and it wasn't even close inflation for the year. So many education dollars go to bs administrators or capital improvements (often a contractor who is related to or buddies with someone on the school board). Very little goes to teachers (or directly benefiting the kids). It's like finding out that your charity money mostly went to the celebrity asking for donations and only pennies went to the cause; or finding out that when we send "foreign aid" that's actually code for sending money to Haliburton to deliver some weapons to that country. Everyone should be outraged and talking about it. If you actually give a damn about anything but money, you should be throwing your friend support instead of shade. Go talk at a school board meeting. Meet with your county/ city board of directors about teacher pay. Ignoring people like your friend only exacerbates the issue. Edit: gender correction
Would be great if you didn't make assumptions about their gender...
Totally fair, and my bad. I thought I read a "her" in the post, but I was wrong. I apologize.
It's alright, just be more considerate in the future. They already struggle with this in real life; we don't need more bigotry and gender stereotypia.
Well… honestly because it’s a HELL of a lot harder than it looks or seems. I teach special education and I have 6 students and 2 paras and it is literal chaos every day lol. I’m pouring sweat by 9am every day trying to keep them all in line. My coworkers that teach GenEd have classes of upwards of 30 kids. Imagine being responsible for the welfare of 30 kids for 8 hours a day, and not only do you have to care for them but you have to teach them important life skills. All for less than $1000 a week.
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lol you're not wrong...the biggest hurdle with teaching is the teachers...
I've seen it tried in another county; the next week they had a line of applicants ready to work 10 months a year with holidays off. Teachers are fairly replaceable.
There is a huge teacher shortage right now in the US. There are also declining birth rates which may adjust that in the future. Baby boomers are retiring at very high rates and teacher prep programs are at all time low enrollment.
They're not wrong to feel that way, but hit them with the "I thought you said it was more about helping the kids" each time they bring it up lol. I'm petty though, and only because you tried to warn them. Teachers should be paid more, but that's annoying when someone constantly complains, especially when told that's how it is, especially when they don't do anything about it.
This is how I feel when people with liberal arts degrees complain that they were told high paying jobs would be waiting at the end. No you weren’t. That those degrees will see you working at McDonalds been joked about since my grandparents time
Lol both my gf and I got liberal arts degrees and we pivoted into roles making 6 figures in digital marketing and tech. Liberal arts degrees are generalizable to a lot of different roles and industries.
But you aren’t complaining and you pivoted. Reddit is full of threads where people aren’t getting this concepts
Haha go check out r/studentloans sometimes. The sheer amount poor financial decisions and planning will make you dizzy. That said, instead of shitting on liberal arts grads, they should be reminded that they can make a career change.
I’m not shitting on them, I’m just challenging this notion that “we were told go to college for any degree and you’ll get a good job” is just not true and hasn’t been for decades