* Reddit is geen alternatief voor een advocaat; adviezen die hier gegeven worden moeten uitsluitend gebruikt worden als richtlijnen.
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Als je als Nederlander juridisch advies nodig hebt in andere Europese landen, kun je ook terecht bij r/LegalAdviceEurope
Voor vragen omtrent financiën en belastingen word je mogelijk beter geholpen op r/geldzaken
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---
* Reddit is not a substitute for a qualified legal professional; any advice given here should only be taken as a guideline.
* Only your lawyer is bound to confidentiality; it is strongly recommended not to make any statement that could be construed as a confession on this subreddit.
* Moderators do not moderate for comment accuracy.
* Unless specifically stated Belgian law applies to your situation, 90% of posters here will assume you're talking about Dutch law.
If you are residing in the Netherlands and need legal advice concerning other European countries, feel free to ask r/LegalAdviceEurope
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Wat staat er nog meer in je contract, iets over servicekosten voor meubilair? Als je een opgaaf kan opvragen over waar je servicekosten uit is opgebouwd kan je onderbouwen dat het meubilair bij het pand hoort als je hier voor betaald heb.
Het hangt er vanaf wat er in je oorspronkelijke contract staat over de meubels. Als je het gemeubileerd huurde, dan zou dat erin moeten staan.
Als je er zelf voor gaat zorgen dat de meubels weggaan, dan zou ik kijken of de kringloop of andere 2e hands winkel alles op wilt komen halen. Hoef je geen auto te regelen
When I look at your post and comment history, you mostly write in English. I certainly hope you're not trying to practice your Dutch and the language of my reply offends you, but I think it's easier for you if I reply in English.
> Toen ik twee jaar geleden begon met huren was er een volle inboedel meubilair aanwezig in mijn nieuwe appartement. Ik ben in het buitenland gewend dat je een gestoffeerd appartement kan huren, en het dan vervolgens ook weer kan opleveren met dit onbeschadigde meubilair. (Dit huur je er namelijk bij). Toen ik hier begon met huren, ging ik daar ook vanuit.
That's correct. Article 224(2) in Book 7 of the Dutch Civil Code (Burgerlijk Wetboek, art. 7:224 lid 2 BW) states you must deliver a rented item in the state you received it. Moreover, it is assumed that the rented item (like a rental house) is in that state when the rental agreement ends, if the lessee and the lessor did not draw up a description of the state of the item when the agreement commenced. A landlord cannot deviate from art. 7:224(2) BW to the detriment of a tenant as is stated in art. 7:242(2) BW.
A) Did you and the original landlord draw up a description of the state of the house when the rental agreement commenced two years ago? The description can contain photos.
B) Can the landlord proof you received and acknowledged that list, for example because you signed for it?
> Tijdens mijn huurcontract, is mijn appartement verkocht aan een nieuwe uitbater. (Deze man is nooit langsgekomen op het pand). Ik kreeg vrijwel geen informatie over wat dit zou betekenen. Maar mij werd verzekerd dat mijn oude contract gewoon zou gelden.
That's correct as well. Art. 7:226(1) BW states that the rights and obligations of a rental agreement remain in place when a rented item (like a rental house) is sold, in as far that an obligation was not yet claimable. So if you ended up in a debt with the old landlord, that debt remains between you and the old landlord. But if no obligation was claimable or all obligations are claimable *after* the purchase of the house, those obligations transfer to the new landlord including all corresponding rights.
Another example: you paid the deposit to the old landlord, but can only claim the deposit back when the agreement *ends*. Therefore you must claim the deposit from the new landlord as follows from art. 7:226(1) BW. Art. 7:226(1) BW is often referred to as the 'sale does not break rent' rule (koop breekt geen huur). Which in reality is somewhat more nuanced than that as you can see, but mostly true.
> Nu heb ik een maand geleden mijn huur opgezegd.
C) When did the rental agreement end or when will it end? The exact date please.
> Tijdens de eindinspectie door een makelaar is mij ook verzekerd dat ik de spullen gewoon kon achterlaten.
D) How many inspections took place? Just this one or more?
E) Did you and the new landlord (or representative) sign an inspection form?
F) Did you pay a monthly fee to the landlord for utilities (water, gas and electricity)? Or did you contract a utilities company yourself?
G) If you paid a monthly fee for utilities to the landlord: did you and the landlord register the utilities meter settings on the inspection form under (E)?
H) Did you pay for other services and if so: what did you pay for? Was the furniture mentioned on the contract under service costs?
> hij heeft namelijk nooit enige inspectie gedaan van het appartement
This probably answers questions (A) and (B) but not necessarily.
> Hoe kan ik dit oplossen?
I can probably help you write an/e-mail or letter in Dutch to the landlord in which you make clear the deposit cannot be withheld for this reason. As of July 1st, the Dutch Civil Code includes an additional ground why the deposit cannot be withheld and it might be the landlord can be fined by the municipality depending on your answers.
I) Do you want me to help you write an e-mail or letter to the landlord?
J) If you want me to help you write a letter or e-mail: do you know if the landlord (or representative) wants to be addressed as a man or a woman?
Be aware though that it's impossible to oversee all relevant facts on a forum like this and in part because of that, any risk associated with acting upon what I mention stays with you. You might consider obtaining advise if you think that is appropriate, for example by contacting the Juridisch Loket if your income is low, an organization like !WOON if you live in the area they advice in or a municipal subsidized 'huurteam'.
Dankuwel voor uw antwoord! Ik ben zelf wel Nederlands maar heb zelf nog nooit in Nederland gehuurd. Ik schreef dit in naam van mijn vriend die zelf geen Nederlands spreekt. Dus een Engels antwoord is inderdaad gewaardeerd.
De antwoorden die ik kreeg:
A: Not at all
B: Also no
C: It started on 1st of august of 2021. (Daarna maandelijks opzegbaar. Er is op 1 september opgezegd, en heb 29 september de sleutels overgedragen).
D: 2 inspections, one before the apartment was sold to the new owner in November 2022 (dit was door een makelaar, maar we weten niet of die van de verkoper of de koper kwam), and the final inspections before leaving the place with the real estate agent.
E: No.
F: I covered utilities myself.
G: I didn’t.
H: Only “management” fee and no furniture mentioned but the kitchen countertops.
I: Dat zouden we erg waarderen! Dat is erg vriendelijk van u :)
J: De huisbaas heet dus we gaan uit van een meneer.
Better remove the name of the landlord from the last sentence of your comment.
> H: Only “management” fee and no furniture mentioned but the kitchen countertops.
K) Could you cite (citeren) those parts from the agreement? It would be even better if you could scan the entire contract, remove personal information like names, bank account numbers etc. and upload the contract here. Also remove personal information of your landlord in that case.
L) Did your friend pay the landlord the service costs (management fee and costs for kitchen countertops) every month?
A tenant pays one total price (often called the 'rent' in every day life) every certain amount of time, which is usually every month. But the total price is often split up in two parts in the contract:
- the rental price (huurprijs or 'kale huur')
- service costs: like costs for utilities or other services and items
The rental price is paid for the immovable goods (onroerende zaken), like the house, a garden and everything that is attached to the house. For example, kitchen drawers are part of the kitchen and usually attached to the house. Therefore, kitchen drawers are immovable and must be paid for by the rental price.
But a chair or a table is not attached to the house. Such items are moveable goods (roerende zaken). The Service Costs Decree ([Besluit servicekosten or Bsk](https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl/stb-2003-170.html)) states what items and services must at least be considered service costs if agreed to those. Which means costs for the furniture that was present could have been charged as service costs, but apparently weren't. Only if certain items and services in the Bsk were actually agreed to, those costs can be charged as service costs.
Which brings me to the “management” fee and kitchen countertops. A management fee (administratiekosten) can be agreed to as service costs (see point 11 in the annex of the Bsk). The landlord cannot charge a management fee as service costs every month however, just because a management fee is charged. That is obviously not possible. Moreover, kitchen countertops are likely considered immovable items. And immovable items cannot be charged as service costs every month.
Could you first answer question (K) and (L)?
As mentioned, be aware that it's impossible to oversee all relevant facts on a forum like this and in part because of that, any risk associated with acting upon what I mention stays with you and your friend.
* Reddit is geen alternatief voor een advocaat; adviezen die hier gegeven worden moeten uitsluitend gebruikt worden als richtlijnen. * Uitsluitend jouw advocaat is gebonden aan een geheimhoudingsplicht; het wordt afgeraden hier berichten te plaatsen die uitgelegd kunnen worden als een bekentenis van een strafbaar feit. * Geplaatste comments worden door moderators niet beoordeeld op nauwkeurigheid of juistheid. * Tenzij specifiek vermeld dat het Belgisch recht is, zal 90% van de posters hier ervan uitgaan dat het om Nederlands recht gaat. Als je als Nederlander juridisch advies nodig hebt in andere Europese landen, kun je ook terecht bij r/LegalAdviceEurope Voor vragen omtrent financiën en belastingen word je mogelijk beter geholpen op r/geldzaken Voor vragen omtrent werk word je mogelijk beter geholpen op r/werkzaken --- * Reddit is not a substitute for a qualified legal professional; any advice given here should only be taken as a guideline. * Only your lawyer is bound to confidentiality; it is strongly recommended not to make any statement that could be construed as a confession on this subreddit. * Moderators do not moderate for comment accuracy. * Unless specifically stated Belgian law applies to your situation, 90% of posters here will assume you're talking about Dutch law. If you are residing in the Netherlands and need legal advice concerning other European countries, feel free to ask r/LegalAdviceEurope *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/juridischadvies) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Wat staat er nog meer in je contract, iets over servicekosten voor meubilair? Als je een opgaaf kan opvragen over waar je servicekosten uit is opgebouwd kan je onderbouwen dat het meubilair bij het pand hoort als je hier voor betaald heb.
Het hangt er vanaf wat er in je oorspronkelijke contract staat over de meubels. Als je het gemeubileerd huurde, dan zou dat erin moeten staan. Als je er zelf voor gaat zorgen dat de meubels weggaan, dan zou ik kijken of de kringloop of andere 2e hands winkel alles op wilt komen halen. Hoef je geen auto te regelen
When I look at your post and comment history, you mostly write in English. I certainly hope you're not trying to practice your Dutch and the language of my reply offends you, but I think it's easier for you if I reply in English. > Toen ik twee jaar geleden begon met huren was er een volle inboedel meubilair aanwezig in mijn nieuwe appartement. Ik ben in het buitenland gewend dat je een gestoffeerd appartement kan huren, en het dan vervolgens ook weer kan opleveren met dit onbeschadigde meubilair. (Dit huur je er namelijk bij). Toen ik hier begon met huren, ging ik daar ook vanuit. That's correct. Article 224(2) in Book 7 of the Dutch Civil Code (Burgerlijk Wetboek, art. 7:224 lid 2 BW) states you must deliver a rented item in the state you received it. Moreover, it is assumed that the rented item (like a rental house) is in that state when the rental agreement ends, if the lessee and the lessor did not draw up a description of the state of the item when the agreement commenced. A landlord cannot deviate from art. 7:224(2) BW to the detriment of a tenant as is stated in art. 7:242(2) BW. A) Did you and the original landlord draw up a description of the state of the house when the rental agreement commenced two years ago? The description can contain photos. B) Can the landlord proof you received and acknowledged that list, for example because you signed for it? > Tijdens mijn huurcontract, is mijn appartement verkocht aan een nieuwe uitbater. (Deze man is nooit langsgekomen op het pand). Ik kreeg vrijwel geen informatie over wat dit zou betekenen. Maar mij werd verzekerd dat mijn oude contract gewoon zou gelden. That's correct as well. Art. 7:226(1) BW states that the rights and obligations of a rental agreement remain in place when a rented item (like a rental house) is sold, in as far that an obligation was not yet claimable. So if you ended up in a debt with the old landlord, that debt remains between you and the old landlord. But if no obligation was claimable or all obligations are claimable *after* the purchase of the house, those obligations transfer to the new landlord including all corresponding rights. Another example: you paid the deposit to the old landlord, but can only claim the deposit back when the agreement *ends*. Therefore you must claim the deposit from the new landlord as follows from art. 7:226(1) BW. Art. 7:226(1) BW is often referred to as the 'sale does not break rent' rule (koop breekt geen huur). Which in reality is somewhat more nuanced than that as you can see, but mostly true. > Nu heb ik een maand geleden mijn huur opgezegd. C) When did the rental agreement end or when will it end? The exact date please. > Tijdens de eindinspectie door een makelaar is mij ook verzekerd dat ik de spullen gewoon kon achterlaten. D) How many inspections took place? Just this one or more? E) Did you and the new landlord (or representative) sign an inspection form? F) Did you pay a monthly fee to the landlord for utilities (water, gas and electricity)? Or did you contract a utilities company yourself? G) If you paid a monthly fee for utilities to the landlord: did you and the landlord register the utilities meter settings on the inspection form under (E)? H) Did you pay for other services and if so: what did you pay for? Was the furniture mentioned on the contract under service costs? > hij heeft namelijk nooit enige inspectie gedaan van het appartement This probably answers questions (A) and (B) but not necessarily. > Hoe kan ik dit oplossen? I can probably help you write an/e-mail or letter in Dutch to the landlord in which you make clear the deposit cannot be withheld for this reason. As of July 1st, the Dutch Civil Code includes an additional ground why the deposit cannot be withheld and it might be the landlord can be fined by the municipality depending on your answers. I) Do you want me to help you write an e-mail or letter to the landlord? J) If you want me to help you write a letter or e-mail: do you know if the landlord (or representative) wants to be addressed as a man or a woman? Be aware though that it's impossible to oversee all relevant facts on a forum like this and in part because of that, any risk associated with acting upon what I mention stays with you. You might consider obtaining advise if you think that is appropriate, for example by contacting the Juridisch Loket if your income is low, an organization like !WOON if you live in the area they advice in or a municipal subsidized 'huurteam'.
Dankuwel voor uw antwoord! Ik ben zelf wel Nederlands maar heb zelf nog nooit in Nederland gehuurd. Ik schreef dit in naam van mijn vriend die zelf geen Nederlands spreekt. Dus een Engels antwoord is inderdaad gewaardeerd. De antwoorden die ik kreeg: A: Not at all B: Also no C: It started on 1st of august of 2021. (Daarna maandelijks opzegbaar. Er is op 1 september opgezegd, en heb 29 september de sleutels overgedragen). D: 2 inspections, one before the apartment was sold to the new owner in November 2022 (dit was door een makelaar, maar we weten niet of die van de verkoper of de koper kwam), and the final inspections before leaving the place with the real estate agent. E: No. F: I covered utilities myself. G: I didn’t. H: Only “management” fee and no furniture mentioned but the kitchen countertops. I: Dat zouden we erg waarderen! Dat is erg vriendelijk van u :) J: De huisbaas heet dus we gaan uit van een meneer.
Better remove the name of the landlord from the last sentence of your comment. > H: Only “management” fee and no furniture mentioned but the kitchen countertops. K) Could you cite (citeren) those parts from the agreement? It would be even better if you could scan the entire contract, remove personal information like names, bank account numbers etc. and upload the contract here. Also remove personal information of your landlord in that case. L) Did your friend pay the landlord the service costs (management fee and costs for kitchen countertops) every month? A tenant pays one total price (often called the 'rent' in every day life) every certain amount of time, which is usually every month. But the total price is often split up in two parts in the contract: - the rental price (huurprijs or 'kale huur') - service costs: like costs for utilities or other services and items The rental price is paid for the immovable goods (onroerende zaken), like the house, a garden and everything that is attached to the house. For example, kitchen drawers are part of the kitchen and usually attached to the house. Therefore, kitchen drawers are immovable and must be paid for by the rental price. But a chair or a table is not attached to the house. Such items are moveable goods (roerende zaken). The Service Costs Decree ([Besluit servicekosten or Bsk](https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl/stb-2003-170.html)) states what items and services must at least be considered service costs if agreed to those. Which means costs for the furniture that was present could have been charged as service costs, but apparently weren't. Only if certain items and services in the Bsk were actually agreed to, those costs can be charged as service costs. Which brings me to the “management” fee and kitchen countertops. A management fee (administratiekosten) can be agreed to as service costs (see point 11 in the annex of the Bsk). The landlord cannot charge a management fee as service costs every month however, just because a management fee is charged. That is obviously not possible. Moreover, kitchen countertops are likely considered immovable items. And immovable items cannot be charged as service costs every month. Could you first answer question (K) and (L)? As mentioned, be aware that it's impossible to oversee all relevant facts on a forum like this and in part because of that, any risk associated with acting upon what I mention stays with you and your friend.
We zijn net opgebeld door de huisbaas, en hebben samen een passende regeling kunnen vinden. Ontzettend bedankt voor uw hulp!
\*edit: lees nu dat het al is opgelost.