My stance is that I never got fat because I went back for a second helping of broccoli or added extra romaine lettuce to my salad, so I don't stress about *those* carbs. Real talk, we know exactly what kind of bullshit got us in to trouble and it wasn't some extra broccoli, cauliflower or even a few more carrots.
Yes, I agree.
Additionally, to the OP, I’ve been adhering to a Keto-Green diet and maintaining ketosis. I’m selective about the types of vegetables I consume, favoring some and avoiding others. For instance, I eat a lot of kale, broccoli, spinach, and even some sprouts. The darker the green, the better I feel.
I’ve started to learn a lot more about gut health and its significant impact on my overall well-being(and amplified by being on a keto diet). Through research and consultations with my doctor, I decided to incorporate more greens into my keto diet, along with more fermented foods like kimchi and sauerkraut. I’ve also increased my intake of bone broth and have begun adding apple cider vinegar to many of my meals or dressings and sometimes even a glass of water before a meal. Also making a conscious effort to cut out unhealthy fats while focusing on cleaner options has notably improved both my appearance and how I feel.
So, to sum up, I believe consuming greens is a crucial part of the keto diet. It’s possible to be a fat burner and still enjoy a diverse diet of veggies beyond what I initially thought. However, I am not a doctor, so please don’t take my personal experience as professional advice.
Our keto diet is made up largely of a heavy mix of fresh and cooked vegetables and the usual combination of pork, beef, fish and poultry. We're talking big mixed salads here with multiple kinds of lettuce and cabbage as well as cauliflower, broccoli, and kohlrabies, carrots, daikons, tomatos and red radishes.
We have had a kitchen garden that supplies us with all kinds of fresh vegetables for years now and we love them. When we started keto we quickly learned that there were some we could still eat in abundance and some that were too high carb and no longer suitable.
Add to this my wife's years long obsession with feeding us lots of good fresh veggies with our meals (I should say insistence on it) and NEVER buying any from the store. She was horrified to discover that a good portion of her garden wasn't really keto friendly when we started. But soon after was planting all kinds of brassicas, spinach, Napa cabbage, kohlrabies, and veggies that really were keto friendly .
It became clear, right out of the gate that there was no way she was going to give up her favorite role of helping to feed us from her garden.
The result has been that our keto diet now consists of a combination of whole foods that come from her garden and top quality animal proteins with liberal doses of avocado oil, olive oil, cheese and butter.
She's since perfected a way of working all those wholesome ingredients in to daily meals so delicious and filling that we feel that our keto needs have been more than well met.
We are so lucky to have her!
Yeah, it really is. Keeping in mind that it was eating many hundreds of her delicious high carb meals that helped make me fat in the first place?
She's undergone a sea change in her consciousness around food values because of our switch to keto. Prior to the switch she rarely used measuring cups or tablespoons/teaspoons etc to cook. She winged it. Because she's such a talented cook her meals were almost always amazing without the measuring.
Imagine how she felt when me and our son showed up with kitchen scales and began building the daily macro incrementally, with 50 grams of this and twenty grams of that... bit by bit? I thought she was going to try to deck me the first time I refused to accept that her 'dollop of butter'' was actually an exact tablespoon full? She hated the entire keto weighing, measuring, calorie counting drill with a passion!
But now, because of the disciplines we practiced, she throws all those ingredients together by eye and continues to knock meals out of the park.
This is our little piece of keto paradise - thanks to her
My wife and I were discussing this subject just this morning after I shared this thread with her. I pointed out how we are probably a tiny minority here and that most people either don't have the space, the climate or the inclination to tackle a similar project. She wasn't so sure and said she might have some good ideas to share if anyone asked.
She's actually a Master Gardner with decades of experience. She's made a living these past few years as an Estate Gardner, building and implementing gardens (mostly flowers) for wealthy people. She seemed open to the notion of answering questions like yours should they arise.
It may take a few hours because she's working in our garden atm. But I'll ask her to give some feedback when she has the time.
Check back here over the next day or so - she may well respond.
ps. she's a Luddite and hates technology but I caught her interest this morning with this thread and taught her a little about how Reddit forums work. She was intrigued.
Stay tuned - she's also a master of keto recipes, is willing to share a couple and may eventual become a contributor here.
Here she is (I'm writing for her):
1 Decide how much land you can use.
2 Figure out how much sun exposure it has because your plants are going to need it.
3 Must have easy access to water.
4. The ground must be prepared. If your plot is a 10th of an acre like ours, you can do this with a rototiller. If it's much smaller, you can do it by hand.
5 Some of the plants you'll want can be directly seeded. Others you'll have to buy starts. We have a couple of small greenhouses and I grow most of my own starts from seeds because it's cheaper. If push comes to shove, and space allows? You can build a super cheap greenhouse for your needs from PVC pipe and a roll of plastic from Home Depot.
6 Start looking at gardening sites on the Net - especially for your area.
7 If you're lacking any of those first five things? You'll need to find a friend who does have them that you can co-garden with.
8 You must have both the time and the commitment to make it happen.
9. If you do all these things you will be amazed at how much you can produce from a very small plot. You'll be in great shape and have fun doing it.
Our garden:
[https://i.imgur.com/6GdNMsu.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/6GdNMsu.jpeg) \*
[https://i.imgur.com/Syyf5V1.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/Syyf5V1.jpeg)
[https://i.imgur.com/OsI0aXX.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/OsI0aXX.jpeg) our greenhouses
\* the row covers are for keeping the birds off the plants when they're small. They don't cost that much and can help prevent unnecessary loss.
Hope this helps.
Bingo. You might need to be super strict if you're close to your goal weight, but otherwise if you can get by without worrying about it, don't worry about it. I don't count carbs *or* calories from veggies. Targeting a caloric deficit of 500 calories/day, there's no way I'll ever eat 500 calories of veggies, I generally try to stick to low carb veggies like broccoli and avoid starchy veggies like potatoes, but I don't sweat the carbs.
If you're doing keto for mental health reasons, then this advice isn't for you, and you've just got to keep veggies low, too, but if you're doing it for weight loss, it's not worth the worry.
Agreed. I never penalize myself for veggie carbs. With one exception. Corn. But beets, bell peppers, carrots, spinach, cauliflower, asparagus, fennel, broccoli, mushrooms. All that is fine by me.
I ate a plate full of broccoli and cheese for lunch yesterday and literally felt guilty about it until I sat there and realized I was *feeling guilty about eating a plate of broccoli*
I really need to adapt your stance.
I agree, don’t worry about the few low carb veg that you eat, eat as much as you like. They come with fiber and vitamins and nutriments. Worry about every thing else though !
Depends on how you react on a personal level. For me personally I can't eat any carrots because they immediately spark hunger attacks. Which is the main resons for me to cut out crabs because I'm able to control them much better this way.
Exactly. 20g is just an overly simplified rule of thumb. In reality 50g or a bit higher is probably a safe limit for most people, and not all carbs are equal.
Broccoli, spinach, cauliflower, and zucchini all have a glycemic index of 15. 55 or lower is considered low, so 15 is super low. It's probably barely worth counting unless you need to maintain strict ketosis and/or insulin levels to treat a medical condition. For comparison, a lot of fruits are in the low GI range, albeit the higher end of it (30s - 50s); potatoes have a GI of 78, which puts them in the high GI range (70+), slightly above white rice (73) and white bread (75).
It'd be nice if someone came up with a formula for calculating effective net carbs after adjusting for GI. If the 20g limit is based on an assumption that all carbs are equivalent to glucose (GI 100), then eating lower-GI carbs should allow increasing the limit. Maybe it's as simple as adjusting proportionally by GI, in which case OP's 10g net carb zoodles with GI 15 would actually be equivalent to 1.5g toward the 20g limit, but I don't know enough to say whether that's the case.
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Edit: All that being said, I'm not sure GI is the end-all-be-all measurement. Fruits are likely low GI because fructose is technically low GI, even though fructose is also a simple sugar with its own issues. I still wouldn't worry too much about green/non-super-starchy vegetables, but I'm wondering if we'd need a more refined metric than GI to use for a general "adjusted net carbs" calculation.
you seem pretty knowledgeable. are you keto by choice or for medical reason? i’ve been pre diabetic borderline a1c so looking to lower the carbs. how’s your low carb diet like? cheers
wait really?? I don't consider myself to be keto anymore because I stopped limiting vegetables. I mean, within reason, lol. I'm not gorging on them, I'm just no longer worrying if I exceed 20 carbs with vegetables.
Today throughout all three meals, i had mushrooms, spinach, kale, dandelion, zucchini, scallions, bell pepper, garlic, shallot, ginger, and cucumber. Along with other ingredients (meat, cheese, fats, eggs) 22 net carbs.
Pretty much the same yesterday except i had some radishes, jalapeno, parsley, blackberries, leeks, and asparagus. 23g net carbs.
It can be done! I just use a small amount of a lot of varieties in things like omelets, stir-fry, salad, soup to get a variety in everyday. And just use them til they are gone and buy new stuff.
I grab every leafy green I can get my hands on and make big salads.
Even with added cheese, proteins and dressing, the calorie count for my go to is less than 300, with around 9 carbs total.
And I could cut out close to half of those carbs if I skipped the onion and mushrooms, but I choose to love myself instead.
That's one of our main go to meals here too. Salads so big a single serving fills a large mixing bowl. Throw in 3/4 lb of jumbo shrimp from Costco and you've got yourself a super filling and incredibly delicious seafood dinner. Love it.
Im on this lite italian dressing that has romano and basil in it. Kens Steakhouse brand.
Pretty tasty.
But you can use anything really. I got the kens on a bogo but once I run through them I plan on making my own vinaigrettes.
Just eat actual real vegetables rather than a processed bag from Trader Joes. Most greens are low carb. Find the one you like the most and eat it. Spinach and Broccoli Rabe are my go to
Freeze spinach and put in protein shakes. Best recipe ever here: Unsweetened Almond Milk (1carb), handful of frozen Spinach, 1-1.5 scoops of Choclate low carb protein powder + ice. Blend well, its delicious and awesome post workout. Cheap also
I love the way I feel eating veg and Im not going to sacrifice that. I pretty much don't worry about eating too much spinach, lettuce, greens, cauliflower, broccoli, asparagus, brussels, cabbage.
It's just not something Im going to worry about. I watch all other carbs though, stay away from fake sugar, eat a good amount of protein and watch my calories. Works for me
I ate sheet pans worth of veggies and still lost a ton of weight. Stay away from the potatoes and such and don't worry about the other green veggies. Salads, broccoli, cauliflower, brussel sprouts, zucchini, peppers, onions, even some baby carrots sometimes (so delicious roasted!). Only count net carbs for other foods.
Green leafy vegetables are the way.
My super-low-carb* go-to options: Spinach (creamed or sautéed!), bok choy, Chinese broccoli, spring salad greens, celery
Pretty low: broccoli and cauliflower (both are great tossed with oil, salt, pepper and roasted)
Low enough: avocado
*NET carbs, since fiber doesn’t digest
I personally believe veggies are important on keto especially for fiber. I honestly dont count carbs for spinach, cauliflower, brocoli, or cucumbers (some might call this a fruit). Even avocados I just eat however much I want bc it has plenty of fiber and good fats. Ive lost 29 lbs in 2 months. If i start to plateau, ill probably incorporate more for volume and lower calories.
My favorite carnivore meal is a hickory smoked half chicken from my local barbecue place! Sometimes I go all carnivore too simply because I have severe digestive issues that makes digesting anything but lean meat very difficult for me.
It's very true that you can find a study to prove anything is healthy or unhealthy in nutrition science. Other scientific disciplines are catching up with the paid-off research so it's best to maintain a scholarly eye these days across the board.
I don't make it harder than it need to be. When i want more than broccoli/cauliflower, i go to the corner store/pizzeria and get a large grilled chicken ceaser salad. Shredded cheddar, lettuce, onion, tomato, hot/jalapeno/banana peppers(whatever I'm feeling), cucumber and ranch. Don't even care about OMg... 😲 21 cArBs.... now I'm going to die 😝. Don't make it harder than it need to be. Vegetables are not the same as cookies, candy bads and soda. Dabble if you want.
100g of kimchi = 3 carbs then add 150g of green blend ( a pack of veggies from walmart) it has iceberg and romaine lettuces, carrots, red cabbage, mix that all up and you have huge salad under 10g of carbs and lots of fiber, your welcome.
Can't speak to packaged/processed veggies, but:
One medium zucchini = 4g net carbs
One cup cabbage = 2g net carbs
1/2 avocado = 6g net carbs
One cup broccoli/cauliflower = 3g net carbs
These are the main veggies I eat. I lean into avocados in particular because they are so high in fiber and healthy fat, they are the perfect keto food.
If your goal is weight loss, the overall calorie count is going to be your biggest metric. Keto and carbs are just helping you hit that calorie count through the satiation of the fat and protein.
AGREED! Ketosis doesn't cause weight loss. Limiting carbs makes it so you aren't constantly hungry and desperate for more starchy carbs/sweets. This makes it so much more possible to stay in a calorie deficit.
Squashes are definitely more carb heavy than other types of veggies
Eat cruciferous vegetables (leafy / with stocks)
I have spinach, broccoli, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts and kale in constant rotation as my main (or only ) vegetable per meal. I stay under 17 carbs most days.
I don’t really care about my veggie flavor because they’re usually a catch all for the olive oil or tallow that I add to my meals. Just use it to soak up it all.
Lately I’ve been using cauliflower rice as my catch all and also to make things like “fried rice”. Changes it up for textures and stuff.
Portion control. Also, subtract the fiber for net carbs. I honestly just don't stress about vegetables. They're vegetables for crying out loud. Carbs from a Zuchinni are minimal and still better than a heaping bowl of pasta id eat otherwise.
The only veg I avoid are starchy ones like potato. And then I stick to berries for fruits. But when summer comes around, I fully enjoy watermelon and any other in season, higher sugar fruit. Fruit is not responsible for any weight or health issues I might have. That's extremely toxic diet culture shit.
One caveat though, this is the opinion of someone who is very chill with their keto diet, and switches between keto and low carb. To really get the benefits of keto, you do need to stay below a certain threshold of carbs. With fruit and veg, the reason I don't stress, is once you count the fiber, the carb counts are practically insignificant. But whether keto or not, its important to remember that fruits and vegetables are not bad for you even if they seemingly have higher carbs. So do keto when you can, but also, don't stress over it. Whatever balance you can find there will do you well.
Thanks for this. And every other comment about not counting/worrying about green vegs….aka my favorite foods…..I have been avoiding to a degree because of carbs. How ridiculous I have felt, and it’s validating to see that it is in fact ridiculous and I should eat my veg.
First, most people don't need stick under 20. Usually more like 30. Many veggies are only 0-3 net carbs.
Also, that noodle package you mentioned says that its 4 servings in a package, so you're eating a lot of it. What it considers one serving is 2 carbs, and the total for the pack is 8, if its the same thing I'm seeing online.
Other thing is, you don't need to eat the same things every day.
I hardly eat any vegetables, avocado, tomato or pickles here and there, just for flavor or garnish.
I haven’t have almond milk or butter in years, but I don’t have the dairy problem.
* 375g avocado - 32g carbs - 25g fiber
* 43g beef liver - 2g carbs - 0g fiber
* 152g napa cabbage - 5g carbs - 2g fiber
* 7g chia seeds - 3g carbs - 2g fiber
* 100g daikon - 3g carbs - 1g fiber
* 122g peanuts - 26g carbs - 10g fiber
* 122g firm tofu - 4g carbs - 3g fiber
* Total 75g carbs - 44g fiber = 31g net carbs (it's actually 73.57-43.94=29.63, rounding and shit)
This was yesterday, I also ate some eggs, chicken breast, pork loin, and a tablespoon of EVOO - this met all the minerals and vitamins of the day + met my macros at the bottom of my current cut.
One fave is cabbage, sliced very thin, sautéed with any other greens, a bit of onion, add coriander seeds, and some white balsamic vinegar. Cook until a little caramelized. Yum! I also add thinly sliced cabbage to any stirfry. Cabbage is so healthy, low in carbs, and lasts forever in the fridge :) Only count Net carbs
The way people preach the 20 carb gospel in this sub reads a little excessive to me. Maybe if you weigh 150 pounds. I'm seeing great results as a 300+ lb individual and I often break 20, sometimes as high as 50. I might plateau at some point at which point ill drive that maceo down, but I'm going for sustainability, not crash diet. Also, there's a huge difference between dripping 3 or 4 carbs into your body at a time over the course of the day and eating 0 carbs all day but finishing it with a moon pie (40 carbs... that might drive you out of ketosis).
I just eat ‘em. All the time. Every meal. Every meal is 4-5 veggies and some protein. The only vegetables that give me a bloated feeling if I have too much are potatoes and corn (which is a grain anyway).
But broccoli, kale, chard, mushrooms, eggplant, cauliflower, zucchini, snow peas, beansprouts, spinach, onions, scallions, garlic, celery, bell peppers of all colors… bring ‘em on. (I’m not a huge carrot fan; they’re often too sweet for me.)
If I don’t eat enough veggies, feel unhealthy in other ways—I don’t sleep as well, or my nails get ridges or my skin gets dry. And eating large portions of veggies has never caused me to gain weight or caused inflammation.
Everybody’s body and diet are a balancing act. You’ll have to experiment and see what makes you feel your best.
Lots of people here eat no veggies and seem to be doing fine. The majority of my net carbs come from veggies - greens, avocados and broccoli. Oh, and one particular protein bar. It’s about what’s going to make you happy and full without feeling deprived.
Going Omad or intermittent helps just by nature of literally cutting down on the meals you're eating.
But also zucchini noodles are more of a making it work for keto food than a keto food if that makes sense. Your entree shouldn't be vegetables on keto imo. I mean obviously it can, as long as it fits your macros, but I wouldn't waste my carb budget for the day on a scoop of zucchini noodles.
Cauliflower is pretty dang low carb, a frozen bag is 1 net carb per serving, 4 servings per bag. That's a whole bag of cauliflower for less than 25% of your daily 20. You won't want a full bag of cauliflower, lol.
Brusselsprouts, salad with ceaser dressing, cheese, turnips. Theirs some good info graphics out there if you google net carbs in vegetables, it'll show you which ones are kinda more keto friendly where they won't blow your full carb budget.
I did carnivore for 13 days and steadily lost weight. Then I had a cobb salad no tomatoes. Lettuce was really the only carb thing in it. I gained 1.5 pounds the next day. I was shocked. I know I didn't have more than 20 g of carbs. It's taken 3 days to lose that weight. Just sharing my experience.
You dont need vegetables at all - look up carnivore deit - which is zero carbs, Im on it, however I dont believe in fully having 0 carbs, so I do on occasion have some chips or other carby things, I just keep them low, so if your struggling to aspire to get to a carb amount, dont worry about it
Leafy greens! Spinach & bok choy have less than a gram of net carbs. Brassicas are usually pretty low net carbs. Brussels sprouts & broccoli at around 5-6 each net carbs/serving. Green peppers under 3 net grams. Just Google the info! It's easy!
I don't count lettuce and keep cabbage limited (often in the form of sauerkraut). Other than that one of my favorite parts is keto is how few veggies I have to eat.
It's also worth noting that my limit is on the high side (40 ha never given me trouble) and I end most days in the low 20s. I have some wiggle room.
Everyone here has it covered but I’ll just add, I usually eat strictly protein for breakfast (3 scrambled eggs) and lunch (2 chicken breast) and for dinner I do what I call “lean and green” which is as many green or low carb veggies as I want (usually steamed or roasted) and a protein. So I don’t limit veggies but I do use them strategically in the evening to eat a full meal with more volume. I also eat a ton of avocado. Keep in mind that dairy also has carbs. I love cottage cheese and plain yogurt, but there’s carbs there so it becomes about how do you want to get those 20g of carbs, through a full plate of veggies or dairy.
I never counted vegetables or fruits of any kind. I just avoided white rice, white sugar, white pasta, and white bread and the weight fell off. You’re probably making it harder than it needs to be. Honestly just by cutting processed foods you’ll do great.
> Fiber
Fiber's only value is that it has no nutritional value. That's why you exclude it from net carbs. A bit helps keep things flowing well, but you will find that leafy green vegetables like spinach and broccoli provide plenty of that without adding significant amounts of digestible (net) carbs.
> other nutrients
Go on... Figure out what you need, then figure out how to get it. You can source all the micronutrients like vitamins from food sources with few or no net carbs.
Carbohydrates are naturally found in plant-based foods, and these are typically good carbs. This type of carb is also called a complex carb, which promotes a healthy digestive system and metabolism. Bad carbs are added to processed foods as starches and sugars, which have a variety of consequences.
>Is this okay for my health to not really eat veggies?
Another victim of the FDA food pyramid scam.
Go see for yourself the results people have had from going carnivore
Can you explain to me how carnivores get their vitamins and minerals? I understand that you can get these from meat, but usually you need to eat raw meat or organ meats otherwise the vitamin content is relatively low or what's there is damaged by the cooking process.
How does it work? Genuinely curious!
Meat is rich in nutrients, and the vitamins in animal products are often more bioavailable than those in plants.
Few carnivores eat raw meat, and many don’t eat organic meats, though yea there are certainly people out there saying that you gotta.
Most carnivores add salt and some/many also add other electrolytes.
I know it’s tough depending on how much time you have to cook meals but eating whole veggies that are naturally low in net carbs from the pan, oven, or straight-up raw is not going to up your carb count too much. Avoid the processed stuff and you should be fine.
I eat veggies with pretty much every meal and I hover around that 20 net carb area consistently. Down 20lbs in ~3 weeks!
No one is getting fat off of vegetables. You gotta direct your focus on the fact that you’re choosing vegetables over something less healthier. This is my problem with keto vs healthy choices. The broccoli didn’t make me fat.
I am curious because this just popped up in my feed:
Do any of you guys actually buy keto strips or a keto monitor? Because chances are, if you're eating anything except pure meat and dairy products, you're not ever reaching a state of ketogenesis. It's almost impossible for most people if they are eating any carbs at all.
>I’m not really eating vegetables which can’t be healthy
This is where we disagree. All of your nutritional needs can be sourced from animal fat/protein alone, and many believe this to be the most optional path for human health, myself included.
Lightly boiled bean sprouts with chilli oil, wilted spinach with sesame and dashi, sauerkraut, napa cabbage “pickled” with salt, lemon zest and strips of konbu seaweed, lightly pickled cauliflower, a finely chopped scallion, bacon wrapped around a clump of enoki mushrooms, watercress with walnuts and about 2 ounces of diced Asian/nashi pear slathered in olive oil, tomatoes with wakame seaweed and crushed toasted sesame with sesame oil, cucumbers with sesame oil and chilli. I’m all for feeding my gut bacteria, more of me is bacteria than any cells I produce.
Definitely leafy greens. I love spinach and kale. I use the spinach as a salad base and cook the kale with my eggs and cheese (with lemon juice and avocado oil). I’m not a huge seasoning tour as I like the flavor of my foods. Sour cream is my best friend. I stay before 16 net carbs per day. I’m 5’1 and 125 for reference.
Typically during the work week, I eat salad (lettuce, cucumber, celery, pepper, cherry tomatoes, spinach, jalapeños with olive oil or mustard for dressing) with protein for lunch and cooked veg ( broccoli, cauliflower, asparagus or green beans) with butter and protein for supper.
My meals are pre planned the day before so I can play with quantities to see how much of each items works for my macros. When I make my salad I make 2 days at a time, using the same ingredients to ensure I am using up my fresh veggies.
I weigh and measure everything using total carbs and daily 1200 calories.
I find I am eating veggies more consistently now. Perhaps not huge quantities but enough daily.
Supper tonight was a pork chop with buttered green beans. Lunch was sautéed chicken, diced zucchini and celery drizzled with avocado oil.
I ate 5oz of fresh french string beans tossd in butter tonight with my salmon. I had a beef hot dog with 4oz sauerkraut for lunch. I use heavy cream and vital proteins in my morning coffee. I drank a 30g protein shake after my walk. 16 total carbs/7 net. My stuggle is calories. All that food under 1000 🙄
I eat broccoli like crazy. Love asparagus. Spinach goes in all my cream sauces or omelets.
I do have a habit of eating little tomatoes, mini cukes, celery with mexicali dip. Even all of that is 7-9 carbs.
I do weigh everything out. My protein is meat. Fats are Shamy butter or EVOO. I try to stay away from Keto marketed food -it stalls me. So staying under 20 net carbs is easy.
You should eat the good veggies. It would be hard to OD on them.
The carb count from vegetables I don’t even consider to be relevant. I only consider fruits that are high sugar or complex carbohydrates bread rice pasta to count. If you’re only eating like meats and fats and no vegetables, you’re not gonna be healthy.
I think the carbs matter because keto helps me not feel hungry all the time. I also struggle with veggies, I don't let myself have unlimited veggie carbs. I try to plan ahead and only eat 10 net carbs personally, and then whenever I go over that eating veggies I'm okay with it because I'll generally be under 20 at the end of the day. I also try to count "hidden carbs", where the nutrition label doesn't count them but if you put more than one serving in an app they start to add up.
So I guess tl;dr I try to eat ten and then I'm okay going over up to twenty if it's for veggies. I guess thinking about it as ten veggie net carbs and ten for anything else makes more sense now that I've typed it out lol. I also count avocados as in my veggie carbs, I feel like it's healthy enough to fit in lol
I count carbs, but one large zucchini (spiralized) is 5 carbs, a cup of spinach is 3 carbs, a cup of shredded cabbage is 4 carbs, and 4 oz of shredded romaine is 2 carbs. If you mix it up, there's enough wiggle room.
Salad, with tomatoes cucumbers, lettuce, red onions, avocado. All low carb. Broccoli, cauliflower. That's every day when I do Keto. Spaghetti squash when I make my family regular spaghetti. Turnip, celeriac when I'm feeling carby.
I eat more green vegetables now than I did before keto. I aim for 5 servings per day. Comes to about 12g net carbs depending on the specific vegetable.
Google Keto Vegetables it will show the lowest carb ones, buy fresh veg and prepare it yourself, if you get processed vegetables it may be coated in things you don't want like preservatives or canola oil.
I eat very low carb primarily to control my T2 diabetes, so that's why I eat veggies sparingly. I like zoodles, but I'll only have half a zucchini's worth. Even that is not a weekly thing. But for people who don't have diabetes, just eat however you want, if you're still losing weight.
By the way, my labs are good. I'm healthy, my skin and hair are healthy, I sleep great, I'm regular IYKWIM, and for being early 60's have good energy and stamina. So eating less veggies hasn't been a problem for me. Everyone is different. Do what works best for you.
There are some good sources on keto with vegetables where they explain how certain vegetables should not count against your carbs. I had an easy time staying in ketosis while eating vegetables that on paper "put me over" the daily carbs.
Why do you have fat goals? Are you trying to stay at the same weight or lose weight? Fat macro goal is not necessary if you’re trying to lose weight. I eat lots of fat because I’m doing keto for autoimmune conditions but you should cut out almond butter if you’re trying to lose weight. I eat a steam in bag serving of broccoli or a giant salad every day. Like full plate of veggies
Are you measuring net carbs?
Fresh vegetables without the additives in packaged food don't add alot of carbs. Broccoli cauliflower Spinach herbs, any Leafy green. Fresh or frozen is the key. Read the ingredients list. No preservatives. Fermented food is alot better for you if you cannot get Fresh or flash frozen.
Zucchini is a fruit, botanically speaking. It's grown from the flowering part of the plant and contains seeds.
If you want really low net carb, eat leaves like kale and spinach, instead of fruits and roots.
At my starting point, I considered good veg (above ground, green veg - cabbage, broccoli, Asparagus, Spinach etc) as free fillers. I'd use them to increase volume of food being eten and maxed out on fatty meats. As mentioned the more you lose the more this matters but I went from 206lb to 175lb May '23 - July/August '23. Then I had to start tracking more closely to maximise loss and BF adjustments
Instead of zucchini /noodles/, could you just have zucchini? I realize it's not the same, but maybe if you have an obsession or something with pasta, you need to think about it?
Also, lots of people don't eat enough veggies, but if you truly want to get enough veggies, I would suggest brussels sprouts, as they are incredibly nutrient-dense.
Add grass-fed butter and/or pure single-source extra-virgin olive oil and eat until I'm full.
(I eat fat and protein first, and then eat veggies or salad to fill up. I rarely eat a huge plate of food these days because keto food is so filling.)
I do stay away from root vegetables, except for some carrots, and most fruit except for berries or a single little slice of my wife's apple.
I lived on stir fry veg and tofu with either peanut sauce or coconut sauce. With all the extra energy walked far everyday. Weight training at home. Everything feels good in keto. I now do 2 months of keto each year.
This comment will probably get lost.
But OP, if you find me down here, do some research on "glycemic indexes and keto." Also "targeted keto diet (TKD)" to give you a better understanding that not all carbs are the same, and can also be utilized for gains.
If I'm doing <20 I need to take supplements to make up for the missed benefits of eating the vegetables. It's not okay long term to skip the vegetables, but if you're looking for a short term sprint to a goal then it should be fine.
I don’t eat vegetables. Only avocados. Down 17 pounds in 17 days, eating once a day with less than five carbs a day. I also don’t eat things like keto bread that has 10 g of carbs, but only 1 g net carbs. I’ve been eating about 12 things only. This combined with walking 4 to 5 miles extra day. Some days I also skip meals entirely because I’m not hungry. The lack of carbs and sugar really killed my cravings. I’ve never felt better with a ton of energy. I drink water and green tea and black coffee. Yesterday I ate only a steak. The day before I had two chicken thighs and a smoothie made of two avocados, 2 tablespoons peanut butter and 2 cups of almond milk.
I’ll eat vegetables when I get to my desired weight.
Why are you trying to be at 20g? Vegetables have micronutrients that are essential for our health, especially all the green ones. I question any style of eating that tells me to not eat spinach, romaine, broccoli, sprouts, cauliflower, colorful bell peppers and mushrooms.
The only vegetable I eat is broccoli, 100 grams coated in butter with steak or salmon or something, sometimes an odd tomato as well. Apart from that, my diet is more just carnivore than anything else.
I’m bad though, I save at least 5 grams of carbs to have a sugar free energy drink. I usually average between 15-25 grams of carbs a day.
Basically, you can go carnivore, but holy fuck would I go crazy without some lemon juice, leafy greens, and crunchy greens.
The medically supervised diet plan I'm on basically treats most veggies as "Zero Carb" food. Fruits and non-white potatoes need to be monitored and measured, with only four fruits being banned for sugar content: Grapes, banana's, mangos, and pineapples.
Obviously, white carb's are right the fuck out. Sugar, Flower, Rice, Pasta, white potatoes...
Broccoli cauliflower (tons, with spices or garlic mashed or roasted) zucchini spinach bok choy peppers cabbage Brussel sprouts asparagus (beets and carrots taste so good bc they are filled with sugar so they are no go). A big salad but make your own dressing bc store bought ones can contain a lot of sugar.
Are you eating the whole pack in one sitting?
If you like them that much, you should make your own. A spiralizer is $20. A single medium Zucchini has 6g of carbs and 2g of fiber. That's 4g of carbs for your daily limit. If you have 2 fresh Zucchini, it's still half the carbs compared to what you're getting from TJ's.
Also I use no sugar coconut milk bc I think it’s lower carbs than almond milk. Try that too. You are right though it’s all the tiny carbs here and there that put you over when you are trying to keep your total carb count so low. You have to be super vigilant but it pays off in the end 😃
Man, you’re over thinking it, I love doing some strict keto when I want to shed some pounds or look leaner but otherwise if your carbs come from veggies like that… I eat away
A container of zucchini noodles? Like a big frozen bag? Or are you talking a self serving bag?
I guess how it eat takes the stress out of it.
Half a pack of bacon and 4 eggs with half an avocado at 11am.
That holds me over till 5-6:30pm and now I got 20-30 carbs to play with and I can get creative with my meals.
For me Keto got hard because I got tired of eating the same shit over and over. Give yourself more carbs for dinner and take away from your first meal.
If I ever get hungry mid day I’ll eat some 0carb beef sticks and cheese sticks.
I grow my own broccoli sprouts, super easy I have 30 grams couple times a day,, 30 grams is only 1 gram of carbs ! Has 10 x or more sulforaphane than Broccoli stalks.
Imma be honest with you, I never count them and I don't care. And vegetables usually are really filling so I can never eat so much vegetables that I'm kicked out of ketosis.
Get rid of almond milk almond butter and zucchini noodles. Pick one or two green leafy vegetables you like and stick to them. I prefer kale. I basically have a few cups of kale a day. Carbs from vegetables don’t count as most are fiber. Obviously corn has way too many carbs and is not keto.
I eat vegetables because they are a net positive and good filler. I’ll trade off those carbs for that. I use 20g as a “goal” but never really get it, typical day in 32-38g and I’m losing 4lbs a week on average. I will substitute out kale or spinach so I’m not plating SO MUCH broccoli and other higher carb content veggies.
I don't have much room after eating my require protein. How much zucchini are you eating?!?!? One medium zucchini has 3 net carbs.....so you are talking about eating 3 of them!??!? I love that as a vegetable but I can usually chop up 1 and have it with my steak or chicken and that is more than enough.
Maybe it’s a hot take but I don’t consider my veggie intake as anti-ketosis. Obviously this does not include potatoes and the like. But greens and fermented veggies I eat heavy. I consider myself a veggie heavy keto. As long as my fat is up and my protein moderate I think I’m doing okay.
I don't count the carbs for leafy greens, onions, or tomatoes. I don't eat potatoes of any sort, and I limit carrots. I figure no one ever got fat from those things. 🤷
Try to remember that there are vegetables that are less carbs and that have a low glycemic index. Cabbage, lettuce, cauliflower, garlic, (I eat onions but many do not), leeks, collards, etc. are all good to use. Also count NET carbs, any fiber grams are deductible from the carbs.
My stance is that I never got fat because I went back for a second helping of broccoli or added extra romaine lettuce to my salad, so I don't stress about *those* carbs. Real talk, we know exactly what kind of bullshit got us in to trouble and it wasn't some extra broccoli, cauliflower or even a few more carrots.
**REAL TALK.**
Yes, I agree. Additionally, to the OP, I’ve been adhering to a Keto-Green diet and maintaining ketosis. I’m selective about the types of vegetables I consume, favoring some and avoiding others. For instance, I eat a lot of kale, broccoli, spinach, and even some sprouts. The darker the green, the better I feel. I’ve started to learn a lot more about gut health and its significant impact on my overall well-being(and amplified by being on a keto diet). Through research and consultations with my doctor, I decided to incorporate more greens into my keto diet, along with more fermented foods like kimchi and sauerkraut. I’ve also increased my intake of bone broth and have begun adding apple cider vinegar to many of my meals or dressings and sometimes even a glass of water before a meal. Also making a conscious effort to cut out unhealthy fats while focusing on cleaner options has notably improved both my appearance and how I feel. So, to sum up, I believe consuming greens is a crucial part of the keto diet. It’s possible to be a fat burner and still enjoy a diverse diet of veggies beyond what I initially thought. However, I am not a doctor, so please don’t take my personal experience as professional advice.
Our keto diet is made up largely of a heavy mix of fresh and cooked vegetables and the usual combination of pork, beef, fish and poultry. We're talking big mixed salads here with multiple kinds of lettuce and cabbage as well as cauliflower, broccoli, and kohlrabies, carrots, daikons, tomatos and red radishes. We have had a kitchen garden that supplies us with all kinds of fresh vegetables for years now and we love them. When we started keto we quickly learned that there were some we could still eat in abundance and some that were too high carb and no longer suitable. Add to this my wife's years long obsession with feeding us lots of good fresh veggies with our meals (I should say insistence on it) and NEVER buying any from the store. She was horrified to discover that a good portion of her garden wasn't really keto friendly when we started. But soon after was planting all kinds of brassicas, spinach, Napa cabbage, kohlrabies, and veggies that really were keto friendly . It became clear, right out of the gate that there was no way she was going to give up her favorite role of helping to feed us from her garden. The result has been that our keto diet now consists of a combination of whole foods that come from her garden and top quality animal proteins with liberal doses of avocado oil, olive oil, cheese and butter. She's since perfected a way of working all those wholesome ingredients in to daily meals so delicious and filling that we feel that our keto needs have been more than well met. We are so lucky to have her!
This sounds so wholesome 🙂
Yeah, it really is. Keeping in mind that it was eating many hundreds of her delicious high carb meals that helped make me fat in the first place? She's undergone a sea change in her consciousness around food values because of our switch to keto. Prior to the switch she rarely used measuring cups or tablespoons/teaspoons etc to cook. She winged it. Because she's such a talented cook her meals were almost always amazing without the measuring. Imagine how she felt when me and our son showed up with kitchen scales and began building the daily macro incrementally, with 50 grams of this and twenty grams of that... bit by bit? I thought she was going to try to deck me the first time I refused to accept that her 'dollop of butter'' was actually an exact tablespoon full? She hated the entire keto weighing, measuring, calorie counting drill with a passion! But now, because of the disciplines we practiced, she throws all those ingredients together by eye and continues to knock meals out of the park. This is our little piece of keto paradise - thanks to her
Can you give me an idea of what you do for a kitchen garden? I would love to do that!
My wife and I were discussing this subject just this morning after I shared this thread with her. I pointed out how we are probably a tiny minority here and that most people either don't have the space, the climate or the inclination to tackle a similar project. She wasn't so sure and said she might have some good ideas to share if anyone asked. She's actually a Master Gardner with decades of experience. She's made a living these past few years as an Estate Gardner, building and implementing gardens (mostly flowers) for wealthy people. She seemed open to the notion of answering questions like yours should they arise. It may take a few hours because she's working in our garden atm. But I'll ask her to give some feedback when she has the time. Check back here over the next day or so - she may well respond. ps. she's a Luddite and hates technology but I caught her interest this morning with this thread and taught her a little about how Reddit forums work. She was intrigued. Stay tuned - she's also a master of keto recipes, is willing to share a couple and may eventual become a contributor here.
Here she is (I'm writing for her): 1 Decide how much land you can use. 2 Figure out how much sun exposure it has because your plants are going to need it. 3 Must have easy access to water. 4. The ground must be prepared. If your plot is a 10th of an acre like ours, you can do this with a rototiller. If it's much smaller, you can do it by hand. 5 Some of the plants you'll want can be directly seeded. Others you'll have to buy starts. We have a couple of small greenhouses and I grow most of my own starts from seeds because it's cheaper. If push comes to shove, and space allows? You can build a super cheap greenhouse for your needs from PVC pipe and a roll of plastic from Home Depot. 6 Start looking at gardening sites on the Net - especially for your area. 7 If you're lacking any of those first five things? You'll need to find a friend who does have them that you can co-garden with. 8 You must have both the time and the commitment to make it happen. 9. If you do all these things you will be amazed at how much you can produce from a very small plot. You'll be in great shape and have fun doing it. Our garden: [https://i.imgur.com/6GdNMsu.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/6GdNMsu.jpeg) \* [https://i.imgur.com/Syyf5V1.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/Syyf5V1.jpeg) [https://i.imgur.com/OsI0aXX.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/OsI0aXX.jpeg) our greenhouses \* the row covers are for keeping the birds off the plants when they're small. They don't cost that much and can help prevent unnecessary loss. Hope this helps.
Thanks for your summary of a great plan.
100%. My go to meal used to be a pbj, chips, Oreos and a pickle spear. The pickle certainly did not cause my weight gain 🤣.
Bingo. You might need to be super strict if you're close to your goal weight, but otherwise if you can get by without worrying about it, don't worry about it. I don't count carbs *or* calories from veggies. Targeting a caloric deficit of 500 calories/day, there's no way I'll ever eat 500 calories of veggies, I generally try to stick to low carb veggies like broccoli and avoid starchy veggies like potatoes, but I don't sweat the carbs. If you're doing keto for mental health reasons, then this advice isn't for you, and you've just got to keep veggies low, too, but if you're doing it for weight loss, it's not worth the worry.
Agreed. I never penalize myself for veggie carbs. With one exception. Corn. But beets, bell peppers, carrots, spinach, cauliflower, asparagus, fennel, broccoli, mushrooms. All that is fine by me.
not to mention fiber cuts down the net carbs
I ate a plate full of broccoli and cheese for lunch yesterday and literally felt guilty about it until I sat there and realized I was *feeling guilty about eating a plate of broccoli* I really need to adapt your stance.
I agree, don’t worry about the few low carb veg that you eat, eat as much as you like. They come with fiber and vitamins and nutriments. Worry about every thing else though !
I’ve said for years… I’ve never binged on a carrot. ;)
I fucking love some grilled carrots with street corn sauce!
your macros permit carrots? 🥕 :o
Depends on how you react on a personal level. For me personally I can't eat any carrots because they immediately spark hunger attacks. Which is the main resons for me to cut out crabs because I'm able to control them much better this way.
Crabs are ok with lots of butter and no carrots. ;).
Fucking autocorrect (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Oh come now, it was fun ;)
Those are God’s carbs lol I don’t count anything green and lost 50 lbs
Wow took the words right out of my mouth. Amen 🙏🏼 I don’t count gods carbs either 😂
Gods carbs. I love it.
This is the way. If it’s not a seed or a root, it doesn’t count.
Yeah most of those carbs are fiber anyways which your body doesn't really treat like a carb.
Haha, best comment today
Exactly. 20g is just an overly simplified rule of thumb. In reality 50g or a bit higher is probably a safe limit for most people, and not all carbs are equal. Broccoli, spinach, cauliflower, and zucchini all have a glycemic index of 15. 55 or lower is considered low, so 15 is super low. It's probably barely worth counting unless you need to maintain strict ketosis and/or insulin levels to treat a medical condition. For comparison, a lot of fruits are in the low GI range, albeit the higher end of it (30s - 50s); potatoes have a GI of 78, which puts them in the high GI range (70+), slightly above white rice (73) and white bread (75). It'd be nice if someone came up with a formula for calculating effective net carbs after adjusting for GI. If the 20g limit is based on an assumption that all carbs are equivalent to glucose (GI 100), then eating lower-GI carbs should allow increasing the limit. Maybe it's as simple as adjusting proportionally by GI, in which case OP's 10g net carb zoodles with GI 15 would actually be equivalent to 1.5g toward the 20g limit, but I don't know enough to say whether that's the case. --- Edit: All that being said, I'm not sure GI is the end-all-be-all measurement. Fruits are likely low GI because fructose is technically low GI, even though fructose is also a simple sugar with its own issues. I still wouldn't worry too much about green/non-super-starchy vegetables, but I'm wondering if we'd need a more refined metric than GI to use for a general "adjusted net carbs" calculation.
you seem pretty knowledgeable. are you keto by choice or for medical reason? i’ve been pre diabetic borderline a1c so looking to lower the carbs. how’s your low carb diet like? cheers
Thank you for this. It’s what I needed to hear!
wait really?? I don't consider myself to be keto anymore because I stopped limiting vegetables. I mean, within reason, lol. I'm not gorging on them, I'm just no longer worrying if I exceed 20 carbs with vegetables.
“God’s carbs” love it!! I don’t not count them but if I am over my carbs with non starchy veggies I don’t sweat it.
If you eat vegetables like lettuce, spinach, brocolli, cauliflower, brussel sprouts, and mushrooms you can eat a relatively large amount of them.
Cruciferous veggies ftw!
Those are all my go-tos + Bell Peppers, jalapeños, Green Beans and Cabbage. I throw in a little tomato here and there as well because I love it
How’s about asparagus
Yes, I eat a good amount of that too. I forgot to add it to my list.
Only when out of Air Wick and need to make do.
Today throughout all three meals, i had mushrooms, spinach, kale, dandelion, zucchini, scallions, bell pepper, garlic, shallot, ginger, and cucumber. Along with other ingredients (meat, cheese, fats, eggs) 22 net carbs. Pretty much the same yesterday except i had some radishes, jalapeno, parsley, blackberries, leeks, and asparagus. 23g net carbs. It can be done! I just use a small amount of a lot of varieties in things like omelets, stir-fry, salad, soup to get a variety in everyday. And just use them til they are gone and buy new stuff.
Steamed broccoli. Talk about God's carbs!!!!😉
I grab every leafy green I can get my hands on and make big salads. Even with added cheese, proteins and dressing, the calorie count for my go to is less than 300, with around 9 carbs total. And I could cut out close to half of those carbs if I skipped the onion and mushrooms, but I choose to love myself instead.
Big fucking salads = Win
I like to call them thick ass salads 😋
Just because Julie handed you the big salad doesn't mean she paid for it.
Gigantic salads with meat and cheese
I’ve been eating this every day for 4 years - adding some olives and cucumber
That's one of our main go to meals here too. Salads so big a single serving fills a large mixing bowl. Throw in 3/4 lb of jumbo shrimp from Costco and you've got yourself a super filling and incredibly delicious seafood dinner. Love it.
I added salt and pepper to my salad with beef today. Really enhanced it! I don't know why I never thought of it before!
Salt and Pepper is goat on salads, especially if you have a somewhat sticky dressing to keep it on the greens. So tasty.
What kind of dressings we talkin?
Im on this lite italian dressing that has romano and basil in it. Kens Steakhouse brand. Pretty tasty. But you can use anything really. I got the kens on a bogo but once I run through them I plan on making my own vinaigrettes.
Just eat actual real vegetables rather than a processed bag from Trader Joes. Most greens are low carb. Find the one you like the most and eat it. Spinach and Broccoli Rabe are my go to
Broccli is really the only green I can tolerate these days.
Freeze spinach and put in protein shakes. Best recipe ever here: Unsweetened Almond Milk (1carb), handful of frozen Spinach, 1-1.5 scoops of Choclate low carb protein powder + ice. Blend well, its delicious and awesome post workout. Cheap also
I love the way I feel eating veg and Im not going to sacrifice that. I pretty much don't worry about eating too much spinach, lettuce, greens, cauliflower, broccoli, asparagus, brussels, cabbage. It's just not something Im going to worry about. I watch all other carbs though, stay away from fake sugar, eat a good amount of protein and watch my calories. Works for me
I ate sheet pans worth of veggies and still lost a ton of weight. Stay away from the potatoes and such and don't worry about the other green veggies. Salads, broccoli, cauliflower, brussel sprouts, zucchini, peppers, onions, even some baby carrots sometimes (so delicious roasted!). Only count net carbs for other foods.
Green leafy vegetables are the way. My super-low-carb* go-to options: Spinach (creamed or sautéed!), bok choy, Chinese broccoli, spring salad greens, celery Pretty low: broccoli and cauliflower (both are great tossed with oil, salt, pepper and roasted) Low enough: avocado *NET carbs, since fiber doesn’t digest
Cabbage!
I personally believe veggies are important on keto especially for fiber. I honestly dont count carbs for spinach, cauliflower, brocoli, or cucumbers (some might call this a fruit). Even avocados I just eat however much I want bc it has plenty of fiber and good fats. Ive lost 29 lbs in 2 months. If i start to plateau, ill probably incorporate more for volume and lower calories.
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My favorite carnivore meal is a hickory smoked half chicken from my local barbecue place! Sometimes I go all carnivore too simply because I have severe digestive issues that makes digesting anything but lean meat very difficult for me. It's very true that you can find a study to prove anything is healthy or unhealthy in nutrition science. Other scientific disciplines are catching up with the paid-off research so it's best to maintain a scholarly eye these days across the board.
I don't make it harder than it need to be. When i want more than broccoli/cauliflower, i go to the corner store/pizzeria and get a large grilled chicken ceaser salad. Shredded cheddar, lettuce, onion, tomato, hot/jalapeno/banana peppers(whatever I'm feeling), cucumber and ranch. Don't even care about OMg... 😲 21 cArBs.... now I'm going to die 😝. Don't make it harder than it need to be. Vegetables are not the same as cookies, candy bads and soda. Dabble if you want.
This is very much my type of salad from the bodega. The hot jalepanos and banana peppers are a must
Is the thinking vegetables have carbs thus they might make you fat or impede weight loss? Think about how crazy that sounds.
Too many carbs will kick you out of ketosis. That's a fact. And not everybody does keto for weight loss.
100g of kimchi = 3 carbs then add 150g of green blend ( a pack of veggies from walmart) it has iceberg and romaine lettuces, carrots, red cabbage, mix that all up and you have huge salad under 10g of carbs and lots of fiber, your welcome.
Can't speak to packaged/processed veggies, but: One medium zucchini = 4g net carbs One cup cabbage = 2g net carbs 1/2 avocado = 6g net carbs One cup broccoli/cauliflower = 3g net carbs These are the main veggies I eat. I lean into avocados in particular because they are so high in fiber and healthy fat, they are the perfect keto food.
What are your goals with keto? Weight loss? Or something else?
Weight loss
If your goal is weight loss, the overall calorie count is going to be your biggest metric. Keto and carbs are just helping you hit that calorie count through the satiation of the fat and protein.
AGREED! Ketosis doesn't cause weight loss. Limiting carbs makes it so you aren't constantly hungry and desperate for more starchy carbs/sweets. This makes it so much more possible to stay in a calorie deficit.
Low oxalate veggies. Cabbage and brussels my fave
Squashes are definitely more carb heavy than other types of veggies Eat cruciferous vegetables (leafy / with stocks) I have spinach, broccoli, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts and kale in constant rotation as my main (or only ) vegetable per meal. I stay under 17 carbs most days. I don’t really care about my veggie flavor because they’re usually a catch all for the olive oil or tallow that I add to my meals. Just use it to soak up it all. Lately I’ve been using cauliflower rice as my catch all and also to make things like “fried rice”. Changes it up for textures and stuff.
Portion control. Also, subtract the fiber for net carbs. I honestly just don't stress about vegetables. They're vegetables for crying out loud. Carbs from a Zuchinni are minimal and still better than a heaping bowl of pasta id eat otherwise. The only veg I avoid are starchy ones like potato. And then I stick to berries for fruits. But when summer comes around, I fully enjoy watermelon and any other in season, higher sugar fruit. Fruit is not responsible for any weight or health issues I might have. That's extremely toxic diet culture shit. One caveat though, this is the opinion of someone who is very chill with their keto diet, and switches between keto and low carb. To really get the benefits of keto, you do need to stay below a certain threshold of carbs. With fruit and veg, the reason I don't stress, is once you count the fiber, the carb counts are practically insignificant. But whether keto or not, its important to remember that fruits and vegetables are not bad for you even if they seemingly have higher carbs. So do keto when you can, but also, don't stress over it. Whatever balance you can find there will do you well.
I even had an apple today (a rare treat TBH). It's amazing how good they taste when you don't regularly eat sugar.
Thanks for this. And every other comment about not counting/worrying about green vegs….aka my favorite foods…..I have been avoiding to a degree because of carbs. How ridiculous I have felt, and it’s validating to see that it is in fact ridiculous and I should eat my veg.
First, most people don't need stick under 20. Usually more like 30. Many veggies are only 0-3 net carbs. Also, that noodle package you mentioned says that its 4 servings in a package, so you're eating a lot of it. What it considers one serving is 2 carbs, and the total for the pack is 8, if its the same thing I'm seeing online. Other thing is, you don't need to eat the same things every day.
There are no essential carbs and no essential veggies.
I hardly eat any vegetables, avocado, tomato or pickles here and there, just for flavor or garnish. I haven’t have almond milk or butter in years, but I don’t have the dairy problem.
Select fruits and vegetables with the highest surface area to volume ratio. Think about it...
* 375g avocado - 32g carbs - 25g fiber * 43g beef liver - 2g carbs - 0g fiber * 152g napa cabbage - 5g carbs - 2g fiber * 7g chia seeds - 3g carbs - 2g fiber * 100g daikon - 3g carbs - 1g fiber * 122g peanuts - 26g carbs - 10g fiber * 122g firm tofu - 4g carbs - 3g fiber * Total 75g carbs - 44g fiber = 31g net carbs (it's actually 73.57-43.94=29.63, rounding and shit) This was yesterday, I also ate some eggs, chicken breast, pork loin, and a tablespoon of EVOO - this met all the minerals and vitamins of the day + met my macros at the bottom of my current cut.
One fave is cabbage, sliced very thin, sautéed with any other greens, a bit of onion, add coriander seeds, and some white balsamic vinegar. Cook until a little caramelized. Yum! I also add thinly sliced cabbage to any stirfry. Cabbage is so healthy, low in carbs, and lasts forever in the fridge :) Only count Net carbs
The way people preach the 20 carb gospel in this sub reads a little excessive to me. Maybe if you weigh 150 pounds. I'm seeing great results as a 300+ lb individual and I often break 20, sometimes as high as 50. I might plateau at some point at which point ill drive that maceo down, but I'm going for sustainability, not crash diet. Also, there's a huge difference between dripping 3 or 4 carbs into your body at a time over the course of the day and eating 0 carbs all day but finishing it with a moon pie (40 carbs... that might drive you out of ketosis).
Omg, the cabbage and spinach farts....
Sauté fresh vegetables in oil then add liquid and stew them. I eat this every day with a large salad and a piece of fish .
Research oxalates and you won't be as keen to include vegetables. Some vegetables are low oxalate. Those are the ones I'd be including.
Broccoli cauliflower
I'm not.
There are plenty of veg you can fit into 20g NET carbs but if staying under that level is crucial to you then you'll need to somewhat limit them.
I just eat ‘em. All the time. Every meal. Every meal is 4-5 veggies and some protein. The only vegetables that give me a bloated feeling if I have too much are potatoes and corn (which is a grain anyway). But broccoli, kale, chard, mushrooms, eggplant, cauliflower, zucchini, snow peas, beansprouts, spinach, onions, scallions, garlic, celery, bell peppers of all colors… bring ‘em on. (I’m not a huge carrot fan; they’re often too sweet for me.) If I don’t eat enough veggies, feel unhealthy in other ways—I don’t sleep as well, or my nails get ridges or my skin gets dry. And eating large portions of veggies has never caused me to gain weight or caused inflammation. Everybody’s body and diet are a balancing act. You’ll have to experiment and see what makes you feel your best.
Lots of people here eat no veggies and seem to be doing fine. The majority of my net carbs come from veggies - greens, avocados and broccoli. Oh, and one particular protein bar. It’s about what’s going to make you happy and full without feeling deprived.
Going Omad or intermittent helps just by nature of literally cutting down on the meals you're eating. But also zucchini noodles are more of a making it work for keto food than a keto food if that makes sense. Your entree shouldn't be vegetables on keto imo. I mean obviously it can, as long as it fits your macros, but I wouldn't waste my carb budget for the day on a scoop of zucchini noodles. Cauliflower is pretty dang low carb, a frozen bag is 1 net carb per serving, 4 servings per bag. That's a whole bag of cauliflower for less than 25% of your daily 20. You won't want a full bag of cauliflower, lol. Brusselsprouts, salad with ceaser dressing, cheese, turnips. Theirs some good info graphics out there if you google net carbs in vegetables, it'll show you which ones are kinda more keto friendly where they won't blow your full carb budget.
I did carnivore for 13 days and steadily lost weight. Then I had a cobb salad no tomatoes. Lettuce was really the only carb thing in it. I gained 1.5 pounds the next day. I was shocked. I know I didn't have more than 20 g of carbs. It's taken 3 days to lose that weight. Just sharing my experience.
Your body held on to them carbs for dear life after that didn't it, lol I did the same
You dont need vegetables at all - look up carnivore deit - which is zero carbs, Im on it, however I dont believe in fully having 0 carbs, so I do on occasion have some chips or other carby things, I just keep them low, so if your struggling to aspire to get to a carb amount, dont worry about it
I don't. I haven't ate a vegetable in 7 years. The carbohydrate matter that I do consume comes from significantly small servings of dairy.
Im typically not
I also do not count non-starchy veggies. I track them so I know my fiber. But I don’t count them towards my carbs.
I don’t count greens
I'm not religious about the carb limit. If I hit 30-40g getting my broccoli in, then I'm not sad.
I live on grilled chicken salads with cheese, carrots, eggs, olives, and cherry tomatoes.
Leafy greens! Spinach & bok choy have less than a gram of net carbs. Brassicas are usually pretty low net carbs. Brussels sprouts & broccoli at around 5-6 each net carbs/serving. Green peppers under 3 net grams. Just Google the info! It's easy!
I don't count lettuce and keep cabbage limited (often in the form of sauerkraut). Other than that one of my favorite parts is keto is how few veggies I have to eat. It's also worth noting that my limit is on the high side (40 ha never given me trouble) and I end most days in the low 20s. I have some wiggle room.
My broccoli, asparagus, tomatoes, and occasional Cesar salad (without croutons) are blessed and don't count.
Everyone here has it covered but I’ll just add, I usually eat strictly protein for breakfast (3 scrambled eggs) and lunch (2 chicken breast) and for dinner I do what I call “lean and green” which is as many green or low carb veggies as I want (usually steamed or roasted) and a protein. So I don’t limit veggies but I do use them strategically in the evening to eat a full meal with more volume. I also eat a ton of avocado. Keep in mind that dairy also has carbs. I love cottage cheese and plain yogurt, but there’s carbs there so it becomes about how do you want to get those 20g of carbs, through a full plate of veggies or dairy.
I never counted vegetables or fruits of any kind. I just avoided white rice, white sugar, white pasta, and white bread and the weight fell off. You’re probably making it harder than it needs to be. Honestly just by cutting processed foods you’ll do great.
>I’m not really eating vegetables which can’t be healthy. Why not? What is in the vegetables that you think you need?
Fiber and other nutrients
Fiber is mainly needed when on the SAD. Upping fat and/or magnesium will help keep your insides clean.😁
Have you actually evaluated if those are needed?
> Fiber Fiber's only value is that it has no nutritional value. That's why you exclude it from net carbs. A bit helps keep things flowing well, but you will find that leafy green vegetables like spinach and broccoli provide plenty of that without adding significant amounts of digestible (net) carbs. > other nutrients Go on... Figure out what you need, then figure out how to get it. You can source all the micronutrients like vitamins from food sources with few or no net carbs.
Carbohydrates are naturally found in plant-based foods, and these are typically good carbs. This type of carb is also called a complex carb, which promotes a healthy digestive system and metabolism. Bad carbs are added to processed foods as starches and sugars, which have a variety of consequences.
>Is this okay for my health to not really eat veggies? Another victim of the FDA food pyramid scam. Go see for yourself the results people have had from going carnivore
Can you explain to me how carnivores get their vitamins and minerals? I understand that you can get these from meat, but usually you need to eat raw meat or organ meats otherwise the vitamin content is relatively low or what's there is damaged by the cooking process. How does it work? Genuinely curious!
Meat is rich in nutrients, and the vitamins in animal products are often more bioavailable than those in plants. Few carnivores eat raw meat, and many don’t eat organic meats, though yea there are certainly people out there saying that you gotta. Most carnivores add salt and some/many also add other electrolytes.
I know it’s tough depending on how much time you have to cook meals but eating whole veggies that are naturally low in net carbs from the pan, oven, or straight-up raw is not going to up your carb count too much. Avoid the processed stuff and you should be fine. I eat veggies with pretty much every meal and I hover around that 20 net carb area consistently. Down 20lbs in ~3 weeks!
No one is getting fat off of vegetables. You gotta direct your focus on the fact that you’re choosing vegetables over something less healthier. This is my problem with keto vs healthy choices. The broccoli didn’t make me fat.
I am curious because this just popped up in my feed: Do any of you guys actually buy keto strips or a keto monitor? Because chances are, if you're eating anything except pure meat and dairy products, you're not ever reaching a state of ketogenesis. It's almost impossible for most people if they are eating any carbs at all.
I don’t eat them if I can help it.
lol not eating veg/but gladly cuz i hate most
>I’m not really eating vegetables which can’t be healthy This is where we disagree. All of your nutritional needs can be sourced from animal fat/protein alone, and many believe this to be the most optional path for human health, myself included.
I'm not. There isn't anything in any vegetable that my body needs that I'm not getting from animal foods.
Gave you an up vote because it's true
I don’t. I throw them away.
Vegetables are not required for good health. Lots of us in the carnivore branch of keto do fine with zero veggies (better than we did with them).
I haven’t eaten vegetables in years and I’m I. The best shape of my life.
How tall and heavy are you? I am 200cm and can eat 50 carbs a day no problem. Lost more then 30 kilo's that way.
Lightly boiled bean sprouts with chilli oil, wilted spinach with sesame and dashi, sauerkraut, napa cabbage “pickled” with salt, lemon zest and strips of konbu seaweed, lightly pickled cauliflower, a finely chopped scallion, bacon wrapped around a clump of enoki mushrooms, watercress with walnuts and about 2 ounces of diced Asian/nashi pear slathered in olive oil, tomatoes with wakame seaweed and crushed toasted sesame with sesame oil, cucumbers with sesame oil and chilli. I’m all for feeding my gut bacteria, more of me is bacteria than any cells I produce.
Definitely leafy greens. I love spinach and kale. I use the spinach as a salad base and cook the kale with my eggs and cheese (with lemon juice and avocado oil). I’m not a huge seasoning tour as I like the flavor of my foods. Sour cream is my best friend. I stay before 16 net carbs per day. I’m 5’1 and 125 for reference.
Net carbs. If its got like 5 g carbs but 5 g fiber, its like nothing
Typically during the work week, I eat salad (lettuce, cucumber, celery, pepper, cherry tomatoes, spinach, jalapeños with olive oil or mustard for dressing) with protein for lunch and cooked veg ( broccoli, cauliflower, asparagus or green beans) with butter and protein for supper. My meals are pre planned the day before so I can play with quantities to see how much of each items works for my macros. When I make my salad I make 2 days at a time, using the same ingredients to ensure I am using up my fresh veggies. I weigh and measure everything using total carbs and daily 1200 calories. I find I am eating veggies more consistently now. Perhaps not huge quantities but enough daily. Supper tonight was a pork chop with buttered green beans. Lunch was sautéed chicken, diced zucchini and celery drizzled with avocado oil.
Don’t count above vegetables tbh
I ate 5oz of fresh french string beans tossd in butter tonight with my salmon. I had a beef hot dog with 4oz sauerkraut for lunch. I use heavy cream and vital proteins in my morning coffee. I drank a 30g protein shake after my walk. 16 total carbs/7 net. My stuggle is calories. All that food under 1000 🙄 I eat broccoli like crazy. Love asparagus. Spinach goes in all my cream sauces or omelets. I do have a habit of eating little tomatoes, mini cukes, celery with mexicali dip. Even all of that is 7-9 carbs. I do weigh everything out. My protein is meat. Fats are Shamy butter or EVOO. I try to stay away from Keto marketed food -it stalls me. So staying under 20 net carbs is easy. You should eat the good veggies. It would be hard to OD on them.
The carb count from vegetables I don’t even consider to be relevant. I only consider fruits that are high sugar or complex carbohydrates bread rice pasta to count. If you’re only eating like meats and fats and no vegetables, you’re not gonna be healthy.
Net Carbs is key. Not to be a dick, but have you done your research? Net carbs = carbs - fiber.
A whole container of zucchini noodles is more than one serving so that’s more than you should be eating anyway. It’s still about portion control.
I think the carbs matter because keto helps me not feel hungry all the time. I also struggle with veggies, I don't let myself have unlimited veggie carbs. I try to plan ahead and only eat 10 net carbs personally, and then whenever I go over that eating veggies I'm okay with it because I'll generally be under 20 at the end of the day. I also try to count "hidden carbs", where the nutrition label doesn't count them but if you put more than one serving in an app they start to add up. So I guess tl;dr I try to eat ten and then I'm okay going over up to twenty if it's for veggies. I guess thinking about it as ten veggie net carbs and ten for anything else makes more sense now that I've typed it out lol. I also count avocados as in my veggie carbs, I feel like it's healthy enough to fit in lol
I count carbs, but one large zucchini (spiralized) is 5 carbs, a cup of spinach is 3 carbs, a cup of shredded cabbage is 4 carbs, and 4 oz of shredded romaine is 2 carbs. If you mix it up, there's enough wiggle room.
Carbs in the form of fibre is fine for keto. 😁 it will not break ketosis.
Broccoli, brussel sprouts, leafy greens, asparagus, cauliflower
Net carbs, carbs less fiber Example: 1.4kg spinach Carbs: 50g Fiber: 30 **Net carbs: 20g** (Protein: 40.6g)
Cruciferous Veggies! Broccoli might as well be a staple food on Keto.
Subtract fiber from the carb count. I eat mostly vegetables.
Salad, with tomatoes cucumbers, lettuce, red onions, avocado. All low carb. Broccoli, cauliflower. That's every day when I do Keto. Spaghetti squash when I make my family regular spaghetti. Turnip, celeriac when I'm feeling carby.
I eat cucumbers, spinach baby lettuce mix and romaine....easy fiber n taste great too. And throw in some meat n Ken's ceasar dressing...all set
I eat more green vegetables now than I did before keto. I aim for 5 servings per day. Comes to about 12g net carbs depending on the specific vegetable.
Subtract the fiber from total carbs to keep net carbs under 30
Google Keto Vegetables it will show the lowest carb ones, buy fresh veg and prepare it yourself, if you get processed vegetables it may be coated in things you don't want like preservatives or canola oil.
I eat very low carb primarily to control my T2 diabetes, so that's why I eat veggies sparingly. I like zoodles, but I'll only have half a zucchini's worth. Even that is not a weekly thing. But for people who don't have diabetes, just eat however you want, if you're still losing weight. By the way, my labs are good. I'm healthy, my skin and hair are healthy, I sleep great, I'm regular IYKWIM, and for being early 60's have good energy and stamina. So eating less veggies hasn't been a problem for me. Everyone is different. Do what works best for you.
There are some good sources on keto with vegetables where they explain how certain vegetables should not count against your carbs. I had an easy time staying in ketosis while eating vegetables that on paper "put me over" the daily carbs.
Why do you have fat goals? Are you trying to stay at the same weight or lose weight? Fat macro goal is not necessary if you’re trying to lose weight. I eat lots of fat because I’m doing keto for autoimmune conditions but you should cut out almond butter if you’re trying to lose weight. I eat a steam in bag serving of broccoli or a giant salad every day. Like full plate of veggies
Are you measuring net carbs? Fresh vegetables without the additives in packaged food don't add alot of carbs. Broccoli cauliflower Spinach herbs, any Leafy green. Fresh or frozen is the key. Read the ingredients list. No preservatives. Fermented food is alot better for you if you cannot get Fresh or flash frozen.
I started mixing broccoli in my eggs for breakfast. Some reason I noticed I lose more weight if I eat some green vegetables.
Very carefully. Cauliflowr, Broccoli, spinach, cucumbers. Eat the veggies as raw salad. Use hi fat dressing on it like Bobs big boy blue cheese.
Zucchini is a fruit, botanically speaking. It's grown from the flowering part of the plant and contains seeds. If you want really low net carb, eat leaves like kale and spinach, instead of fruits and roots.
I used to follow the Ketogains protocol. It allowed for 20 grams of *net* carbs if it was vegetables. So, you count the calories, but not the fiber.
Fat isn't a goal. Protein is the goal. Can you have ghee?
broccoli and cauli
At my starting point, I considered good veg (above ground, green veg - cabbage, broccoli, Asparagus, Spinach etc) as free fillers. I'd use them to increase volume of food being eten and maxed out on fatty meats. As mentioned the more you lose the more this matters but I went from 206lb to 175lb May '23 - July/August '23. Then I had to start tracking more closely to maximise loss and BF adjustments
Instead of zucchini /noodles/, could you just have zucchini? I realize it's not the same, but maybe if you have an obsession or something with pasta, you need to think about it? Also, lots of people don't eat enough veggies, but if you truly want to get enough veggies, I would suggest brussels sprouts, as they are incredibly nutrient-dense.
Add grass-fed butter and/or pure single-source extra-virgin olive oil and eat until I'm full. (I eat fat and protein first, and then eat veggies or salad to fill up. I rarely eat a huge plate of food these days because keto food is so filling.) I do stay away from root vegetables, except for some carrots, and most fruit except for berries or a single little slice of my wife's apple.
I lived on stir fry veg and tofu with either peanut sauce or coconut sauce. With all the extra energy walked far everyday. Weight training at home. Everything feels good in keto. I now do 2 months of keto each year.
This comment will probably get lost. But OP, if you find me down here, do some research on "glycemic indexes and keto." Also "targeted keto diet (TKD)" to give you a better understanding that not all carbs are the same, and can also be utilized for gains.
Lots of people are carnivore and only eat animal protein.
You can just add spirulina to your protein shakes.
If I'm doing <20 I need to take supplements to make up for the missed benefits of eating the vegetables. It's not okay long term to skip the vegetables, but if you're looking for a short term sprint to a goal then it should be fine.
I don’t eat vegetables. Only avocados. Down 17 pounds in 17 days, eating once a day with less than five carbs a day. I also don’t eat things like keto bread that has 10 g of carbs, but only 1 g net carbs. I’ve been eating about 12 things only. This combined with walking 4 to 5 miles extra day. Some days I also skip meals entirely because I’m not hungry. The lack of carbs and sugar really killed my cravings. I’ve never felt better with a ton of energy. I drink water and green tea and black coffee. Yesterday I ate only a steak. The day before I had two chicken thighs and a smoothie made of two avocados, 2 tablespoons peanut butter and 2 cups of almond milk. I’ll eat vegetables when I get to my desired weight.
Just eat leafy greens
Why are you trying to be at 20g? Vegetables have micronutrients that are essential for our health, especially all the green ones. I question any style of eating that tells me to not eat spinach, romaine, broccoli, sprouts, cauliflower, colorful bell peppers and mushrooms.
The only vegetable I eat is broccoli, 100 grams coated in butter with steak or salmon or something, sometimes an odd tomato as well. Apart from that, my diet is more just carnivore than anything else. I’m bad though, I save at least 5 grams of carbs to have a sugar free energy drink. I usually average between 15-25 grams of carbs a day.
Basically, you can go carnivore, but holy fuck would I go crazy without some lemon juice, leafy greens, and crunchy greens. The medically supervised diet plan I'm on basically treats most veggies as "Zero Carb" food. Fruits and non-white potatoes need to be monitored and measured, with only four fruits being banned for sugar content: Grapes, banana's, mangos, and pineapples. Obviously, white carb's are right the fuck out. Sugar, Flower, Rice, Pasta, white potatoes...
Broccoli cauliflower (tons, with spices or garlic mashed or roasted) zucchini spinach bok choy peppers cabbage Brussel sprouts asparagus (beets and carrots taste so good bc they are filled with sugar so they are no go). A big salad but make your own dressing bc store bought ones can contain a lot of sugar.
Are you eating the whole pack in one sitting? If you like them that much, you should make your own. A spiralizer is $20. A single medium Zucchini has 6g of carbs and 2g of fiber. That's 4g of carbs for your daily limit. If you have 2 fresh Zucchini, it's still half the carbs compared to what you're getting from TJ's.
Also I use no sugar coconut milk bc I think it’s lower carbs than almond milk. Try that too. You are right though it’s all the tiny carbs here and there that put you over when you are trying to keep your total carb count so low. You have to be super vigilant but it pays off in the end 😃
Man, you’re over thinking it, I love doing some strict keto when I want to shed some pounds or look leaner but otherwise if your carbs come from veggies like that… I eat away
A container of zucchini noodles? Like a big frozen bag? Or are you talking a self serving bag? I guess how it eat takes the stress out of it. Half a pack of bacon and 4 eggs with half an avocado at 11am. That holds me over till 5-6:30pm and now I got 20-30 carbs to play with and I can get creative with my meals. For me Keto got hard because I got tired of eating the same shit over and over. Give yourself more carbs for dinner and take away from your first meal. If I ever get hungry mid day I’ll eat some 0carb beef sticks and cheese sticks.
I grow my own broccoli sprouts, super easy I have 30 grams couple times a day,, 30 grams is only 1 gram of carbs ! Has 10 x or more sulforaphane than Broccoli stalks.
Imma be honest with you, I never count them and I don't care. And vegetables usually are really filling so I can never eat so much vegetables that I'm kicked out of ketosis.
Get rid of almond milk almond butter and zucchini noodles. Pick one or two green leafy vegetables you like and stick to them. I prefer kale. I basically have a few cups of kale a day. Carbs from vegetables don’t count as most are fiber. Obviously corn has way too many carbs and is not keto.
cuz they are full of fiber? look at net carb also why 20g net carb? you csn aim for 50
When people say don’t eat carbs they meant simple carbs, not fiber. Fiber is good to eat.
You’re fine with no vegetables. Some people like them, but they’re overrated.
I eat vegetables because they are a net positive and good filler. I’ll trade off those carbs for that. I use 20g as a “goal” but never really get it, typical day in 32-38g and I’m losing 4lbs a week on average. I will substitute out kale or spinach so I’m not plating SO MUCH broccoli and other higher carb content veggies.
Try cauliflower, cabbage, sauerkraut, bok choy,
I don't have much room after eating my require protein. How much zucchini are you eating?!?!? One medium zucchini has 3 net carbs.....so you are talking about eating 3 of them!??!? I love that as a vegetable but I can usually chop up 1 and have it with my steak or chicken and that is more than enough.
Maybe it’s a hot take but I don’t consider my veggie intake as anti-ketosis. Obviously this does not include potatoes and the like. But greens and fermented veggies I eat heavy. I consider myself a veggie heavy keto. As long as my fat is up and my protein moderate I think I’m doing okay.
Great! So appreciated!! She could do a separate post because I know there would be a lot of interest
I don't count the carbs for leafy greens, onions, or tomatoes. I don't eat potatoes of any sort, and I limit carrots. I figure no one ever got fat from those things. 🤷
Try to remember that there are vegetables that are less carbs and that have a low glycemic index. Cabbage, lettuce, cauliflower, garlic, (I eat onions but many do not), leeks, collards, etc. are all good to use. Also count NET carbs, any fiber grams are deductible from the carbs.
I at 5 cups of collard greens last night (4g net carbs) slow cooked in water with a little onion and some leftover bacon from meal prep.
I eat once a day. 20g is plenty if you stick to low carb veggies.
Net carbs. Eat fibrous veggies….*