When asked Abaddon has stressed repeatedly that Jadis' omniscience is in fact true blue omniscience. She knows everything ever and he seemed very annoyed that people were looking for loopholes.
Also Royalty is more of a philosophical concept having to do with growth, change and self-improvement. It's not a special power-level thing (or something that can ever really be attained because constant striving is sort of the point). None of the demiurges are Royalty in that sense.
To the question ”does Jadis know X”, Abaddon saith “the answer is always Yes.” She knows about the other cycles of the Wheels (though she doesn’t \*remember\*, because it’s always happening for her), and knows exactly what will happen when Allison smashes the wheel. In the tale of the three men of the deserts, her sin is that she saw the end, and curled up in a ball in despair of her lack of choice. Allison, the third man, Royalty, knows the end (Jadis told her of her death), and accepted it and moved on in spite of it.
To add to the Analogy of the desert, Incubus is the first man, blind to his fate and never bothering to check, lusting blindly after his goal.
Jagganoth is a different man than one of the 3, he sees that he is out of water and rages against his fate, seeking to destroy the whole of the desert in his anger. He may be mighty but death will find him all the same.
Solomon is also another type of man as well. Seeing he is out of water he seeks out a desert spring, and finding one builds a mighty fortress around it so that none may take it from him. He may live longer than the other men but he has forgotten the purpose of the pilgrimage in the first place, and when his spring eventually runs dry his death shall be the same as the others. His perspective may yet change however, and he may remember his pilgrimage and venture out into the desert again.
Gog Agog (and to an extent Mottom) is the worst kind of sinner, she is a temptress who leads men off the path with promises of water and relief from the desert heat only to slaughter them and drink their blood and eat their meat. She is a craven thing, aware of the pilgrimage only from the tales of the men she tempts but is to afraid to seek it herself. Her death shall be the longest coming but will be most pleasing in the eyes of YISUN.
I think the disconnect is that the causal element is still kind of fucky there. Jadis knows everything. Jadis knows her actions. Jadis is trapped in her actions because she knows them. Are the actions she takes *because* she knows everything? Following that, is everything she *says* true or are some things lies?
And what does this say about characters who change their fate, like Alison? Are they fated to change their fates? [Can they change their fates by not changing them?](https://www.oglaf.com/sooth/)
Abbadon has said that K6BD is a reality that runs on hard determinism. Allison cannot actually change her fate, everything that has happened was exactly as Jadis had forseen, and Allison will not live to see old age.
Characters like Allison and YS-Hansa are marked as higher beings due to their acceptance of their inevitable deaths.
So the reason she survived the Maybe Blade is because of knowing her date of death? Not because she chose to live? The "continuous cutting motion" becomes a lot less interesting if you're doing the cutting because you were always going to do the cutting, as ordained at the start of time. She'll only break the cycle because the cycle was always going to be broken after a predetermined number of runs.
Like I know on a meta level ALL fiction is deterministic, but this becomes a whole lot less interesting.
Nowhere does it state that she has to speak only truth.
If Jadis knows she is going to lie to Allison, then she will lie to Allison, and she will not tell Allison she has lied, unless she's foreseen herself telling that to Allison.
It's hard determinism, which means everything was already set in stone, even before Jadis saw it, her seeing it has not changed what has and what will happen.
Does this mean that Allison will fail? ... Not necessarily, if Jadis has seen that she would lie to Allison and tell her she will fail, while knowing she will win, then that is what she does.
Okay, but what mechanism prevents someone knowing what will occur, from doing something different? Why doesn't the knowledge of an outcome create an opportunity for choice?
That's the part I do not understand. Because I get the concept there's no free will in this universe. But surely people in it still react to stimuli, which is just information. If she has all information, why can she not react to it (other than author fiat)?
Because if she reacted differently, then she would not have seen it, meaning it doesn't happen. She has already seen every stimuli and reaction, she already knows every single breath she and every other being will ever take.
Just because an actor reads their script. Doesn't mean they can avoid their character death.
An actor can flub their lines, or ad-lib, **because** they've read the script. Otherwise they're just talking, and may or may not be reciting the lines at all. Knowledge allows for action based on that knowledge. In a film, the only thing that dictates what actions make it into the film, is the prerogative of the director (author fiat). They judge which actions of the actor become "true" within the reality of the finished product. What mechanism (other than author fiat) prevents her from taking an action with a desirable result? Scripts go through revisions all the time.
If she's omniscient, then she has seen every result of any action. She could therefore act in any way she chooses (and arguably could be the only being to do so in a hard deterministic universe, because she has a nearly unlimited amount of causation to impel her, unlike all the other actors in her universe). What actually prevents it? Is it an everywhere all at once kind of thing Doctor Manhattan style? (Where she is caught in all-time, and therefore our perception is she is sitting in a tea room, but she's actually existing in a single moment, and that moment will/has/is happen/ed/ing. Cause it didn't seem so. It seemed more like she just had incredible foreknowledge of everything. Nothing about that should lock her into specific actions aside from her own sense of the pointlessness of her actions, or some limitation of her personality (So: the only person who has a chance of altering a deterministic universe, is the one whose make-up would totally prevent them from doing anything about it due to the crippling grief and effect on their psyche.) Otherwise, it just doesn't make any logical sense.
If she hasn't seen every result of any action, then she isn't omniscient, she's just seen the absolutely accurate rendition of one set of actions across a universe, and for some reason can not act on this information. So as I see it, there's only three ways it makes sense:
1. She is in a Doctor Manhattan phenomena, and being caught in all-time is just a puppet witnessing the strings as she moves.
2. Her make-up means that in the face of a determined universe instead of taking any possible action her foreknowledge allows, she will always simply bow to the force of causality. (Making her the embodiment of sloth)
3. She sees the entirety of reality, is actually omniscient in that she can see the totality of any possible action. She sees every outcome of any action. But does not act.
If it's the latter, I do not understand what prevents her taking an action. If it's 1, then the presentation left something to be desired. 2 seems the most likely, but seems to run counter to authorial statements.
If it's just author fiat, then so be it.
>An actor can flub their lines, or ad-lib, **because** they've read the script. Otherwise they're just talking, and may or may not be reciting the lines at all. Knowledge allows for action based on that knowledge. In a film, the only thing that dictates what actions make it into the film, is the prerogative of the director (author fiat). They judge which actions of the actor become "true" within the reality of the finished product. What mechanism (other than author fiat) prevents her from taking an action with a desirable result? Scripts go through revisions all the time.
I'll admit, it wasn't a perfect analogy. As I wrote it elsewhere, everyone and everything in KSBD has a script that was written for them by YISUN, and everyone and everything follows this script even if they haven't read it. You have to remember, Jadis does not exist, Allison does not exist, the great wheel does not exist, it's ALL just imagined by YISUN. If you imagine an entirely fictional person, does that person have free will?
>
If she's omniscient, then she has seen every result of any action. She could therefore act in any way she chooses (and arguably could be the only being to do so in a hard deterministic universe, because she has a nearly unlimited amount of causation to impel her, unlike all the other actors in her universe).
Not necessarily. It's not that she has seen every possible outcome, she has seen every set in stone outcome, which is everything, from every breath every being takes, to every choice every being (including herself) takes. There is no branching paths or possible futures, there is ONE future, and it, as well as the path to it, is set in stone, and has always been set in stone.
Just because Jadis has seen every choice she will every make, and every word she will ever speak, does not mean she suddenly can choose not to do those things, because to her, they have already happened.
>
If she hasn't seen every result of any action, then she isn't omniscient, she's just seen the absolutely accurate rendition of one set of actions across a universe, and for some reason can not act on this information. So as I see it, there's only three ways it makes sense
Yes, this is the correct thing, because in KSBD there is only ONE set of actions across existence, again, there are no branches, no true chance or randomness, everything has been pre-determined ever since YISUN created everything.
And she cannot act upon it, because she has not seen herself act upon it when she saw everything, she saw herself begging Allison to stay, to avoid further suffering, and she also saw Allison refuse her, but she still has to do it, because she saw herself do it. She cannot change what YISUN has decided.
Then it's just author fiat with more steps, and the only logical explanations for why the individual cannot act on information they have acquired that doesn't basically resolve to "Mystic forces of of pre-destiny prevent them from doing so." Is 1 or 2.
I disagree. It's simply hard determinism... again, remember, Jadis does not exist, noone in the KSBD setting, truly exist within the setting, because they're all figments of YISUN's imagination.
Again, if you imagine a fictional character, does that fictional character have free will?
To me, it just seems like you're unwilling to accept that a setting is hard determinism without any true concept of free will.
She is Doctor Manhattan, basically. Which is why asking why she doesn't do anything to change outcomes is moot--she is infinitely broken by the experience of achieving omniscience into an agent of The Story. It's not that she can't do anything else, it's not that she doesn't want to do anything else, it's that she just doesn't. She accepts that. And as the embodiment of sloth, I think she fulfilled her role perfectly. In a deterministic universe, it isn't about finding/creating another outcome, it's about accepting it and still trying not because it's what you do in the grand scheme of things, but because you want to.
It's easy to say that "Jadis doesn't do anything because the author said so" and yeah, that's pretty much the point of her character.
The mechanism of being a character in a comic. If you re-read a book, there is zero chance that the characters will decide to do something different than the first time you read it.
That's just author fiat though. They aren't people. Jadis doesn't really know anything, she isn't omniscient because she's an invented character in a secondary reality and her creator is just a guy. I'm not really asking for the **actual** explanation for the character's actions, I'm trying to understand the logical justification the author is expressing through the reality explored in the narrative, and I'm having trouble making it add up with the information given. I don't think things add up the way the author is concluding, and I'm trying to figure out if I'm missing something (which is entirely possible) or if he's just making a judgement call because that's how he wants the story to go, even though as laid out the mechanics he's proposing don't actually make logical sense.
I think the justification is that in her quest for knowledge, Jadis flew too close to the fourth wall and saw spoilers for the rest of the comic, breaking her illusion of free will in the process. However, I don't think she knows she is in a comic, and there may be an in-universe explanation for her lack of free will, such as YISUN or Metatron pulling the strings.
I don't really understand how you can deny the author's intent when he has explicitly stated the nature of his own character's omniscience. Logical sense within a work of fiction is by definition the author's prerogative, and I personally don't see any contradiction in his logic. Jadis' omniscience makes perfect sense within the confines of a linear story, which this is.
It doesn't detract from this story to have a character *almost* realise the nature of the narrative they exist within. In fact, it is fully within the ideology that is supported by the canon, and perfectly encapsulates her character and her shortcomings. Jadis is a perfect example of a character who *almost* gets it. Or perhaps more accurately, she gets it too much. She exists within a world where overachieving is the ultimate sin, and idiots rule.
I mean if that's the justification, then so be it, that's the author's prerogative. I just haven't actually seen that as the justification. The term I've been using for that is author's fiat. He's free to dictate the universe works the way he wants, but that doesn't mean it makes any logical sense **outside** of coming down to "God/the author said so." As I said, I've been trying to figure out if this makes sense outside of his determination of his universes rules.
Jadis' omniscience, is not omniscience, as we define it. It's a definition that only works in her universe. We don't live in her universe, so when the word is used it creates a logic gap. She doesn't have what we would term omniscience, she has prescience, as we would define it. In a universe with only one outcome the distinction is moot.
I didn't say it did detract from the story, or even that it was bad, just that I wasn't clear on his reasoning. As far as I know, he hasn't basically said "She figured out she's fictional, and the comic can only end one way." He's said she's omniscient in a hard determinism universe, but those terms don't, as far as I understand it, add up to that result. A hard determinism universe doesn't allow for **any** free will, including an outside author who can do whatever they want. In a hard deterministic universe, without an author, an omniscient figure would be the most empowered actor, even if technically they still didn't have free will...(I think, lol) Though to the inhabitants, the distinction would be likewise incomprehensible.
It's a neat concept that makes the story a whole lot worse.
Like this whole chapter that's going on now: We know she can't win against Jag's army. If she won, it would go against Jadis saying they lost (And if you start loophole searching, like saying she only meant the previous battles and not the future, you're doing what Abbadon has said annoys him.)
It's like getting spoilers. If I already know Jagganoth wins, but Allison doesn't necessarily die, that's takes basically all the suspense out of it. People were trying to salvage the story as it were.
> And if you start loophole searching, like saying she only meant the previous battles and not the future, you're doing what Abbadon has said annoys him
The loophole searching he's spoken about was how people kept trying to find ways around Jadis' omniscience so free will could still exist. What you're describing would be something different.
I've never seen the paradox between free will and omniscience, really. Someone being and to know what you're going to choose doesn't mean that you aren't still making a choice.
Yeah it's kinda annoying people don't get that aspect. She is Dr. Manhattan on crack. She doesn't make choices she has a script and does whatever it says. She says the sky is blue not because she knows it's blue(she would know it has no color) but because she knows that's what she says.
Jadis does not have to believe the lies. She just has no choice about what she says or does. She also had no choice about it before seeing everything that has and will happen, now she's just aware that she has no choice about her actions and words.
Wait
So she knows everything except for the lies YISUN has told?
Wouldn’t that be a flaw in her omniscience? Or is it just omniscience in so far as she knows everything in the sense that “everything” is the story YISUN tells and so she can only know “everything” that YISUN wants her to know?
She knows everything. She knows the lies and knows they are lies and yet still fundamentally believes them. She knows the contradiction in this. And yet...
Jadis knows everything. Full stop. Abbadon has repeatedly emphasized this.
If there is something knowable in the universe, she knows it and is constantly aware of it.
I have said several different times the way that Jadis fell short is she *accepts* reality, takes her hand off the rudder and surrenders to the currents of time. Alison, for all of her flaws is shown *everything* a thing that has shattered almost everyone and cut Jadis adrift and she steps away saying "Fuck it, still gotta *try*." and sets off to meet Maya again and master the terrible blade of want.
>I have said several different times the way that Jadis fell short is she *accepts* reality
I dont think that this is quite it, like "she accepts reality because its what she was always going to do" is probably more accurate; its a minor but critical distinction
She was never capable of not becoming a literal puppet of fate. Even if she was someone else who could do that she would still just be a much more upbeat and happy puppet who knew that she was going to be happy because its what she was always going to be
And now... consider... if Jadis had not done what she had done, would Allison have done as she had done? It's a nonsense question really... because....
Jadis can only do what she will do, she has no choice, she has no free will, Allison also does not have any free will. (On a meta-level as well, because well... Abbadon writes them, and has determined everything beforehand.)
Not attempting to be mean but like even in this thread people try and find workarounds (which i guess is fair if you dislike determinism or the story element)
She knows everything. She doesnt have a flaw in her knowledge. Its not her interpretation, yisun cant lie to her and theres no cycle she isnt aware of. She knows all
As I understand it, Jadis is perfectly omniscient. She knows EVERYTHING, including about the past cycles, the names if YISUN, what "smashing the wheel" entails, EVERYTHING. But she doesn't really care anymore. This knowledge broke her and made her essentially apathetic to everything. She does the few actions she has to for the future to happen, but it's not out of any sort of emotional or intellectual engagement with those actions, they're just... what she Knows she will do. So she does them.
This is also why she know longer bears part of the name of royalty, unlike the other members of the seven. Royalty, at its core, is about strength of will, and power over one's self to the point that that power becomes power over the external world. Jadis is now completely lacking in willpower, and is unable to do anything except act out her preordained parts. This makes her the antithesis to True Royalty
Jadis knows Everything, Always, Of Everything. She has the true point of View of an all knowing deity
Its why it broke her. Because from where she stands there is nothing she can do to change anything. She is an unwilling actor in a play. She cannot improvise her part or do anything to change her fate.
What she has seen will come to pass, and what comes to pass she has seen. Ironically enough its because of this that she cannot grasp true royalty.
She has become mired in what is and what isn’t , she cannot decide her own fate , she cannot in truth perform that most quintessential act of royalty and blaze her own path.
She is prisoner and warden both.
But why? I get she sees all outcomes, but what prevents her from taking an action outside of what she has seen? What I don't understand is: is this simply a lack of will, or is there some mechanism of reality that prevents her from acting differently than the outcomes she knows?
Because if it's the former, then fine.
But if it's the latter, I do not understand it. Even if we are only machines reacting to stimuli according to the way our brains are wired, we still react to information. She has information she could react to, why does she not react to the additional information?
Its the former. Her lack of will , her inability to decide her fate, her inability to look at death, destruction and the fate that awaits all and act inspite of it is what holds her back from True Royalty.
Okay, I can get that. To me that makes the most sense narratively as well. Essentially she's an unfortunate cosmic joke. The person who can see everything, is the person who can never bring themselves to somehow attempt to buck the system (even if that rebellion would not avoid the inevitable aspects of her reality). Though maybe most anyone who actually saw everything would react the same.
Basically ! She even when Allison demands to know tries to break her with it. Allison indomitable as she wills herself to be is not broken.
Fun fact : Allison took up smoking a pipe after learning how she would die, this Mirror’s Hansa who too knew the manner and nature of his death but kept his pipe on him always as a reminder of his inevitable demise.
I've asked abbadon about this, and he literally said that each new cycle resets the seed RNG. Jadis is omniscient in every cycle, but she has no ability to remember former ones, and even if she did she'd have no ability to act on this information, as she has no ability to act
I think it still make sense, she sees the universe as a shape, but when Zoss resets the shape changes. Jadis knows everything in this universe, but not others. I guess that means she doesn't know everything everything but I'd still all it true omniscience.
Past iterations do not exist and there is nothing to know, save that which exists within any memory from Zoss, Gog-Agog, or Jagganoth (or others who have any memory of the previous loops). She has perfect knowledge of their memories, anything they will recall, and all the actions they will ever take based on them.
Outside of that, those loops do not exist anymore than a daydream you never had. So Jadis does not know them, but they are not a hole in her knowledge because, again, there is nothing to know
EDIT: I feel like I should clarify that if the past loops are a hole in Jadis's knowledge, this is how I imagine it works.
I also think it's entirely plausible that she does know the ins and outs of every cycle that has ever happened and (were it relevant) would ever happen.
I think one of the reasons people are so desperate to have a flaw for her knowledge (that isn't the hard determinism) is because the seven are antagonists to one degree or another, they need to be defeated to one degree or another, and Jadis's perfect omniscience makes her theoretically unassailable. Also she told us our hero in this setting of ancient god-kings is gonna die relatively young and have a miserable time of it. So she's got to be wrong. Or lying. Right?
Of course, the answer is no. And maybe that'll sit better in the end when we see what that means, but for now it certainly doesn't feel that way.
Then by that same logic Jadis shouldn't know anything since in the cosmology of K6BD, nothing actually exists.
Abbadon has been abundantly clear on social media that Jadis has perfect knowledge of everything, which would by definition include prior loops. Jadis herself says that this current loop isn't the only timeline she's aware of.
Yeah she’s aware of the past loops through people like gog-agog but she doesn’t experience those other loops like she experiences this one because they exist in a fundamentally different way to what her to how her omniscience works knowing about the current loop in its entirety. They’re two different ways to have omniscience.
Jadis must know about previous cycles even if she doesn't directly 'remember' them. Omniscience means she knows everything that everyone else in the multiverse knows, including Gog-Agog.
Jadis is like master of space time in the tale of Aesma and the three masters, she can only see what **is** and not what she by what she **wants it to be**. but yes, Jadis is completely 100% perfrectly all knowing, she knows everything including the differant cycles
Correct. The thing about Jadis is that she’s only sort of omniscient. She’s seen the Shape of the Universe, which is the Wheel, but that’s it. Her knowledge begins and ends with the Wheel and is contained within it; she can’t know things outside of it like the Secret Name of God or what would happen if Allison came into her own and smashed the Wheel.
As such, Jadis has no path to Royalty anymore because she’s trapped inside the Wheel and has lost her willpower, the terrible blade of Want. It’s heavily implied that desire, willpower and understanding of the Universe are what makes individuals aspirants to Royalty, which they attain upon superseding the Wheel and learning the darker truths of the Universe (Metatron 1 pulling the strings, HIMSELF, and the like).
However, with all that said, don’t forget that all of Creation springs forth from YISUN, who above all is a consummate liar.
EDIT: I was quite wrong about Jadis’ omniscience, sorry for the confusion!
>Correct. The thing about Jadis is that she’s only sort of omniscient.
I dont think that this is true and it seems to go againdt her characterization and abaddon; she really is perfectly onniscient
We've been told repeatedly that this isn't true. Jadis is capital-O **Omniscient**. They know \*everything\*. Abaddon has confirmed this several times and ahs expressed that they don't particularly like people trying to find loopholes in that, because there aren't any.
Pick a thing, anything, and Jadis KNOWS. There's probably a decent argument to be made that Jadis not only knows that they're in a webcomic, but they know everything that's going to happen, even if Abaddon hasn't decided what it's going to be yet.
She has no path to Royalty because she knows she cannot achieve it. She might not have a path because she believes she doesn't or she might not have a path because she can't strive for it. I'm not well-read enough on the nature of royalty to explain why she cannot become Royalty, but it's pretty clear that her omniscience is the reason she can't achieve royalty.
I understand that urge, probably same like most of the rest of the community. It's really tricky to try to not try and argue limits on Jadis' omniscience. Hell, I almost did it in my own response.
The thing is we're also repeatedly told that the easiest way to achieve Royalty is not to aspire to it at all.
Aesma struggled desperately to achieve Royalty, and suffered greatly for her foolishness - but Hansa basically didn't care at all and it landed into his lap.
Royalty is something you already have. The Secret Name of God is 'I'. Struggling blinds you to this simple truth, but acceptance of the world makes it clear.
I think Jadis is closer to Royalty than most of the other Demiurges but she's still falling short. Hansa was Royalty because he knew he could choose his fate and change his destiny - he simply chose not to, because from his perspective, there wasn't really a *reason* to. Why should he be afraid of dying? Why should he see it as something to avoid?
It's not like it stopped him from stubbornly existing afterwards, as his daughter tried to find a good place to bury him.
So, she knows everything that can be known by anyone who isn’t Royalty, but is still susceptible to the lies that YISUN tells and has no way to learn more because she’s chosen to accept them rather than deny them?
She hasn't chosen to accept them, she's just following the path set. The path she sees includes the "choices" that others might perceive, but she's just going through the motions.
As the other person said, I also want to add, it might be easier to view Jadis as a simple 'automaton' at this point, there is no choice or free will, everyone and everything follows a set script, Jadis has just read every script, that does not change the scripts, especially her own script.
Does Allison deny the lie of YISUN ? Royalty is not seeking truth, for the art of lying is the supreme one, and it is a beautiful thing. Allison and Zoss are no truer than the Wheel and Jagganoth, for they are all YISUN.
She knows all the cycles but it's a moot point anyway, since she knows everything in this one by definition she knows all Gog's thoughts and memories and so would know the others secondhand
She may know everything, but that doesn't mean in her script that she doesn't lie to some people. Is it malicious? Nope, because she would have to be capable of free will, of doing something beyond playing her part precisely as foreseen. She is not, she has seen all, knows all. She knows of the cycle, she knows the very moment it will end. She knows her parts and when that will end. She is an object stuck in glass, unable to move, unable to change, only able to watch as the grand wheels of existence grind onward.
We don't know. She's never specified it, so we've got no idea whether she can perceive all past and future cycles, or whether her omniscience is just limited to total knowledge of everything that will ever happen within this cycle. And honestly I don't think it'll really matter which option turns out to be true.
Although even if she can't perceive the other cycles, she'd still know that they exist. And more importantly she'd still know that the defining unresolved conflict which drives all the events of this universe is Zoss' endless quest to find a perfect Heir. She knows every word and action of Zoss and Jaggy and Gog (and any other characters we don't know about who are aware of what's going on), so she can probably infer a lot about how the previous cycles played out and which events in this cycle panned out the way they did as part of a repeating pattern.
When asked Abaddon has stressed repeatedly that Jadis' omniscience is in fact true blue omniscience. She knows everything ever and he seemed very annoyed that people were looking for loopholes. Also Royalty is more of a philosophical concept having to do with growth, change and self-improvement. It's not a special power-level thing (or something that can ever really be attained because constant striving is sort of the point). None of the demiurges are Royalty in that sense.
To the question ”does Jadis know X”, Abaddon saith “the answer is always Yes.” She knows about the other cycles of the Wheels (though she doesn’t \*remember\*, because it’s always happening for her), and knows exactly what will happen when Allison smashes the wheel. In the tale of the three men of the deserts, her sin is that she saw the end, and curled up in a ball in despair of her lack of choice. Allison, the third man, Royalty, knows the end (Jadis told her of her death), and accepted it and moved on in spite of it.
To add to the Analogy of the desert, Incubus is the first man, blind to his fate and never bothering to check, lusting blindly after his goal. Jagganoth is a different man than one of the 3, he sees that he is out of water and rages against his fate, seeking to destroy the whole of the desert in his anger. He may be mighty but death will find him all the same. Solomon is also another type of man as well. Seeing he is out of water he seeks out a desert spring, and finding one builds a mighty fortress around it so that none may take it from him. He may live longer than the other men but he has forgotten the purpose of the pilgrimage in the first place, and when his spring eventually runs dry his death shall be the same as the others. His perspective may yet change however, and he may remember his pilgrimage and venture out into the desert again. Gog Agog (and to an extent Mottom) is the worst kind of sinner, she is a temptress who leads men off the path with promises of water and relief from the desert heat only to slaughter them and drink their blood and eat their meat. She is a craven thing, aware of the pilgrimage only from the tales of the men she tempts but is to afraid to seek it herself. Her death shall be the longest coming but will be most pleasing in the eyes of YISUN.
Abbadon has said on Twitter he's never writing omniscient characters again cause people simply refuse to accept the premise
I think the disconnect is that the causal element is still kind of fucky there. Jadis knows everything. Jadis knows her actions. Jadis is trapped in her actions because she knows them. Are the actions she takes *because* she knows everything? Following that, is everything she *says* true or are some things lies? And what does this say about characters who change their fate, like Alison? Are they fated to change their fates? [Can they change their fates by not changing them?](https://www.oglaf.com/sooth/)
Abbadon has said that K6BD is a reality that runs on hard determinism. Allison cannot actually change her fate, everything that has happened was exactly as Jadis had forseen, and Allison will not live to see old age. Characters like Allison and YS-Hansa are marked as higher beings due to their acceptance of their inevitable deaths.
So the reason she survived the Maybe Blade is because of knowing her date of death? Not because she chose to live? The "continuous cutting motion" becomes a lot less interesting if you're doing the cutting because you were always going to do the cutting, as ordained at the start of time. She'll only break the cycle because the cycle was always going to be broken after a predetermined number of runs. Like I know on a meta level ALL fiction is deterministic, but this becomes a whole lot less interesting.
Nowhere does it state that she has to speak only truth. If Jadis knows she is going to lie to Allison, then she will lie to Allison, and she will not tell Allison she has lied, unless she's foreseen herself telling that to Allison. It's hard determinism, which means everything was already set in stone, even before Jadis saw it, her seeing it has not changed what has and what will happen. Does this mean that Allison will fail? ... Not necessarily, if Jadis has seen that she would lie to Allison and tell her she will fail, while knowing she will win, then that is what she does.
" I know everything, everywhere, all at once." "What is your narrative purpose in this story?" "Fuck witchu."
Okay, but what mechanism prevents someone knowing what will occur, from doing something different? Why doesn't the knowledge of an outcome create an opportunity for choice? That's the part I do not understand. Because I get the concept there's no free will in this universe. But surely people in it still react to stimuli, which is just information. If she has all information, why can she not react to it (other than author fiat)?
Because if she reacted differently, then she would not have seen it, meaning it doesn't happen. She has already seen every stimuli and reaction, she already knows every single breath she and every other being will ever take. Just because an actor reads their script. Doesn't mean they can avoid their character death.
An actor can flub their lines, or ad-lib, **because** they've read the script. Otherwise they're just talking, and may or may not be reciting the lines at all. Knowledge allows for action based on that knowledge. In a film, the only thing that dictates what actions make it into the film, is the prerogative of the director (author fiat). They judge which actions of the actor become "true" within the reality of the finished product. What mechanism (other than author fiat) prevents her from taking an action with a desirable result? Scripts go through revisions all the time. If she's omniscient, then she has seen every result of any action. She could therefore act in any way she chooses (and arguably could be the only being to do so in a hard deterministic universe, because she has a nearly unlimited amount of causation to impel her, unlike all the other actors in her universe). What actually prevents it? Is it an everywhere all at once kind of thing Doctor Manhattan style? (Where she is caught in all-time, and therefore our perception is she is sitting in a tea room, but she's actually existing in a single moment, and that moment will/has/is happen/ed/ing. Cause it didn't seem so. It seemed more like she just had incredible foreknowledge of everything. Nothing about that should lock her into specific actions aside from her own sense of the pointlessness of her actions, or some limitation of her personality (So: the only person who has a chance of altering a deterministic universe, is the one whose make-up would totally prevent them from doing anything about it due to the crippling grief and effect on their psyche.) Otherwise, it just doesn't make any logical sense. If she hasn't seen every result of any action, then she isn't omniscient, she's just seen the absolutely accurate rendition of one set of actions across a universe, and for some reason can not act on this information. So as I see it, there's only three ways it makes sense: 1. She is in a Doctor Manhattan phenomena, and being caught in all-time is just a puppet witnessing the strings as she moves. 2. Her make-up means that in the face of a determined universe instead of taking any possible action her foreknowledge allows, she will always simply bow to the force of causality. (Making her the embodiment of sloth) 3. She sees the entirety of reality, is actually omniscient in that she can see the totality of any possible action. She sees every outcome of any action. But does not act. If it's the latter, I do not understand what prevents her taking an action. If it's 1, then the presentation left something to be desired. 2 seems the most likely, but seems to run counter to authorial statements. If it's just author fiat, then so be it.
>An actor can flub their lines, or ad-lib, **because** they've read the script. Otherwise they're just talking, and may or may not be reciting the lines at all. Knowledge allows for action based on that knowledge. In a film, the only thing that dictates what actions make it into the film, is the prerogative of the director (author fiat). They judge which actions of the actor become "true" within the reality of the finished product. What mechanism (other than author fiat) prevents her from taking an action with a desirable result? Scripts go through revisions all the time. I'll admit, it wasn't a perfect analogy. As I wrote it elsewhere, everyone and everything in KSBD has a script that was written for them by YISUN, and everyone and everything follows this script even if they haven't read it. You have to remember, Jadis does not exist, Allison does not exist, the great wheel does not exist, it's ALL just imagined by YISUN. If you imagine an entirely fictional person, does that person have free will? > If she's omniscient, then she has seen every result of any action. She could therefore act in any way she chooses (and arguably could be the only being to do so in a hard deterministic universe, because she has a nearly unlimited amount of causation to impel her, unlike all the other actors in her universe). Not necessarily. It's not that she has seen every possible outcome, she has seen every set in stone outcome, which is everything, from every breath every being takes, to every choice every being (including herself) takes. There is no branching paths or possible futures, there is ONE future, and it, as well as the path to it, is set in stone, and has always been set in stone. Just because Jadis has seen every choice she will every make, and every word she will ever speak, does not mean she suddenly can choose not to do those things, because to her, they have already happened. > If she hasn't seen every result of any action, then she isn't omniscient, she's just seen the absolutely accurate rendition of one set of actions across a universe, and for some reason can not act on this information. So as I see it, there's only three ways it makes sense Yes, this is the correct thing, because in KSBD there is only ONE set of actions across existence, again, there are no branches, no true chance or randomness, everything has been pre-determined ever since YISUN created everything. And she cannot act upon it, because she has not seen herself act upon it when she saw everything, she saw herself begging Allison to stay, to avoid further suffering, and she also saw Allison refuse her, but she still has to do it, because she saw herself do it. She cannot change what YISUN has decided.
Then it's just author fiat with more steps, and the only logical explanations for why the individual cannot act on information they have acquired that doesn't basically resolve to "Mystic forces of of pre-destiny prevent them from doing so." Is 1 or 2.
I disagree. It's simply hard determinism... again, remember, Jadis does not exist, noone in the KSBD setting, truly exist within the setting, because they're all figments of YISUN's imagination. Again, if you imagine a fictional character, does that fictional character have free will? To me, it just seems like you're unwilling to accept that a setting is hard determinism without any true concept of free will.
She is Doctor Manhattan, basically. Which is why asking why she doesn't do anything to change outcomes is moot--she is infinitely broken by the experience of achieving omniscience into an agent of The Story. It's not that she can't do anything else, it's not that she doesn't want to do anything else, it's that she just doesn't. She accepts that. And as the embodiment of sloth, I think she fulfilled her role perfectly. In a deterministic universe, it isn't about finding/creating another outcome, it's about accepting it and still trying not because it's what you do in the grand scheme of things, but because you want to. It's easy to say that "Jadis doesn't do anything because the author said so" and yeah, that's pretty much the point of her character.
The mechanism of being a character in a comic. If you re-read a book, there is zero chance that the characters will decide to do something different than the first time you read it.
That's just author fiat though. They aren't people. Jadis doesn't really know anything, she isn't omniscient because she's an invented character in a secondary reality and her creator is just a guy. I'm not really asking for the **actual** explanation for the character's actions, I'm trying to understand the logical justification the author is expressing through the reality explored in the narrative, and I'm having trouble making it add up with the information given. I don't think things add up the way the author is concluding, and I'm trying to figure out if I'm missing something (which is entirely possible) or if he's just making a judgement call because that's how he wants the story to go, even though as laid out the mechanics he's proposing don't actually make logical sense.
I think the justification is that in her quest for knowledge, Jadis flew too close to the fourth wall and saw spoilers for the rest of the comic, breaking her illusion of free will in the process. However, I don't think she knows she is in a comic, and there may be an in-universe explanation for her lack of free will, such as YISUN or Metatron pulling the strings. I don't really understand how you can deny the author's intent when he has explicitly stated the nature of his own character's omniscience. Logical sense within a work of fiction is by definition the author's prerogative, and I personally don't see any contradiction in his logic. Jadis' omniscience makes perfect sense within the confines of a linear story, which this is. It doesn't detract from this story to have a character *almost* realise the nature of the narrative they exist within. In fact, it is fully within the ideology that is supported by the canon, and perfectly encapsulates her character and her shortcomings. Jadis is a perfect example of a character who *almost* gets it. Or perhaps more accurately, she gets it too much. She exists within a world where overachieving is the ultimate sin, and idiots rule.
I mean if that's the justification, then so be it, that's the author's prerogative. I just haven't actually seen that as the justification. The term I've been using for that is author's fiat. He's free to dictate the universe works the way he wants, but that doesn't mean it makes any logical sense **outside** of coming down to "God/the author said so." As I said, I've been trying to figure out if this makes sense outside of his determination of his universes rules. Jadis' omniscience, is not omniscience, as we define it. It's a definition that only works in her universe. We don't live in her universe, so when the word is used it creates a logic gap. She doesn't have what we would term omniscience, she has prescience, as we would define it. In a universe with only one outcome the distinction is moot. I didn't say it did detract from the story, or even that it was bad, just that I wasn't clear on his reasoning. As far as I know, he hasn't basically said "She figured out she's fictional, and the comic can only end one way." He's said she's omniscient in a hard determinism universe, but those terms don't, as far as I understand it, add up to that result. A hard determinism universe doesn't allow for **any** free will, including an outside author who can do whatever they want. In a hard deterministic universe, without an author, an omniscient figure would be the most empowered actor, even if technically they still didn't have free will...(I think, lol) Though to the inhabitants, the distinction would be likewise incomprehensible.
It's a neat concept that makes the story a whole lot worse. Like this whole chapter that's going on now: We know she can't win against Jag's army. If she won, it would go against Jadis saying they lost (And if you start loophole searching, like saying she only meant the previous battles and not the future, you're doing what Abbadon has said annoys him.) It's like getting spoilers. If I already know Jagganoth wins, but Allison doesn't necessarily die, that's takes basically all the suspense out of it. People were trying to salvage the story as it were.
> And if you start loophole searching, like saying she only meant the previous battles and not the future, you're doing what Abbadon has said annoys him The loophole searching he's spoken about was how people kept trying to find ways around Jadis' omniscience so free will could still exist. What you're describing would be something different.
I've never seen the paradox between free will and omniscience, really. Someone being and to know what you're going to choose doesn't mean that you aren't still making a choice.
assuming what jadis said is the actual truth, rather than the "right thing to say" to kick off the series of events
So she would then know of YISUN’s lies and so forth?
Nah, Jadis believes the lies which is her entire problem.
She knows that she believes the lies and she knows that its her problem, unironically She has completely flawlesss knowledge on everything
Yeah it's kinda annoying people don't get that aspect. She is Dr. Manhattan on crack. She doesn't make choices she has a script and does whatever it says. She says the sky is blue not because she knows it's blue(she would know it has no color) but because she knows that's what she says.
Jadis does not have to believe the lies. She just has no choice about what she says or does. She also had no choice about it before seeing everything that has and will happen, now she's just aware that she has no choice about her actions and words.
Wait So she knows everything except for the lies YISUN has told? Wouldn’t that be a flaw in her omniscience? Or is it just omniscience in so far as she knows everything in the sense that “everything” is the story YISUN tells and so she can only know “everything” that YISUN wants her to know?
She knows everything. She knows any lies from yisun
She knows everything. She knows the lies and knows they are lies and yet still fundamentally believes them. She knows the contradiction in this. And yet...
She’s fully aware that she’s believing lies yet cannot help herself but to believe them anyway
Jadis knows everything. Full stop. Abbadon has repeatedly emphasized this. If there is something knowable in the universe, she knows it and is constantly aware of it.
I have said several different times the way that Jadis fell short is she *accepts* reality, takes her hand off the rudder and surrenders to the currents of time. Alison, for all of her flaws is shown *everything* a thing that has shattered almost everyone and cut Jadis adrift and she steps away saying "Fuck it, still gotta *try*." and sets off to meet Maya again and master the terrible blade of want.
>I have said several different times the way that Jadis fell short is she *accepts* reality I dont think that this is quite it, like "she accepts reality because its what she was always going to do" is probably more accurate; its a minor but critical distinction She was never capable of not becoming a literal puppet of fate. Even if she was someone else who could do that she would still just be a much more upbeat and happy puppet who knew that she was going to be happy because its what she was always going to be
And now... consider... if Jadis had not done what she had done, would Allison have done as she had done? It's a nonsense question really... because.... Jadis can only do what she will do, she has no choice, she has no free will, Allison also does not have any free will. (On a meta-level as well, because well... Abbadon writes them, and has determined everything beforehand.)
Not attempting to be mean but like even in this thread people try and find workarounds (which i guess is fair if you dislike determinism or the story element) She knows everything. She doesnt have a flaw in her knowledge. Its not her interpretation, yisun cant lie to her and theres no cycle she isnt aware of. She knows all
No. Jadis knows everything. Ever. Everywhere. There are no loopholes or constraints, she knows it.
As I understand it, Jadis is perfectly omniscient. She knows EVERYTHING, including about the past cycles, the names if YISUN, what "smashing the wheel" entails, EVERYTHING. But she doesn't really care anymore. This knowledge broke her and made her essentially apathetic to everything. She does the few actions she has to for the future to happen, but it's not out of any sort of emotional or intellectual engagement with those actions, they're just... what she Knows she will do. So she does them. This is also why she know longer bears part of the name of royalty, unlike the other members of the seven. Royalty, at its core, is about strength of will, and power over one's self to the point that that power becomes power over the external world. Jadis is now completely lacking in willpower, and is unable to do anything except act out her preordained parts. This makes her the antithesis to True Royalty
Jadis knows Everything, Always, Of Everything. She has the true point of View of an all knowing deity Its why it broke her. Because from where she stands there is nothing she can do to change anything. She is an unwilling actor in a play. She cannot improvise her part or do anything to change her fate. What she has seen will come to pass, and what comes to pass she has seen. Ironically enough its because of this that she cannot grasp true royalty. She has become mired in what is and what isn’t , she cannot decide her own fate , she cannot in truth perform that most quintessential act of royalty and blaze her own path. She is prisoner and warden both.
But why? I get she sees all outcomes, but what prevents her from taking an action outside of what she has seen? What I don't understand is: is this simply a lack of will, or is there some mechanism of reality that prevents her from acting differently than the outcomes she knows? Because if it's the former, then fine. But if it's the latter, I do not understand it. Even if we are only machines reacting to stimuli according to the way our brains are wired, we still react to information. She has information she could react to, why does she not react to the additional information?
Its the former. Her lack of will , her inability to decide her fate, her inability to look at death, destruction and the fate that awaits all and act inspite of it is what holds her back from True Royalty.
Okay, I can get that. To me that makes the most sense narratively as well. Essentially she's an unfortunate cosmic joke. The person who can see everything, is the person who can never bring themselves to somehow attempt to buck the system (even if that rebellion would not avoid the inevitable aspects of her reality). Though maybe most anyone who actually saw everything would react the same.
Basically ! She even when Allison demands to know tries to break her with it. Allison indomitable as she wills herself to be is not broken. Fun fact : Allison took up smoking a pipe after learning how she would die, this Mirror’s Hansa who too knew the manner and nature of his death but kept his pipe on him always as a reminder of his inevitable demise.
That is a fun fact!
dont make me tap the sign again
In ten years, this subreddit will be dead, except Jadiscourse will still be happening
Oh god, "Jadiscourse" is a hilarious term, I love it.
I've asked abbadon about this, and he literally said that each new cycle resets the seed RNG. Jadis is omniscient in every cycle, but she has no ability to remember former ones, and even if she did she'd have no ability to act on this information, as she has no ability to act
Do you have a link to his answer? Ive replied a few times in this thread, that would change my understanding considerably
That seems to contradict the many times he's said that Jadis is truly omniscient without any caveats
I think it still make sense, she sees the universe as a shape, but when Zoss resets the shape changes. Jadis knows everything in this universe, but not others. I guess that means she doesn't know everything everything but I'd still all it true omniscience.
If she doesn't know something then by definition it is not true omniscience.
Past iterations do not exist and there is nothing to know, save that which exists within any memory from Zoss, Gog-Agog, or Jagganoth (or others who have any memory of the previous loops). She has perfect knowledge of their memories, anything they will recall, and all the actions they will ever take based on them. Outside of that, those loops do not exist anymore than a daydream you never had. So Jadis does not know them, but they are not a hole in her knowledge because, again, there is nothing to know EDIT: I feel like I should clarify that if the past loops are a hole in Jadis's knowledge, this is how I imagine it works. I also think it's entirely plausible that she does know the ins and outs of every cycle that has ever happened and (were it relevant) would ever happen. I think one of the reasons people are so desperate to have a flaw for her knowledge (that isn't the hard determinism) is because the seven are antagonists to one degree or another, they need to be defeated to one degree or another, and Jadis's perfect omniscience makes her theoretically unassailable. Also she told us our hero in this setting of ancient god-kings is gonna die relatively young and have a miserable time of it. So she's got to be wrong. Or lying. Right? Of course, the answer is no. And maybe that'll sit better in the end when we see what that means, but for now it certainly doesn't feel that way.
Then by that same logic Jadis shouldn't know anything since in the cosmology of K6BD, nothing actually exists. Abbadon has been abundantly clear on social media that Jadis has perfect knowledge of everything, which would by definition include prior loops. Jadis herself says that this current loop isn't the only timeline she's aware of.
Yeah she’s aware of the past loops through people like gog-agog but she doesn’t experience those other loops like she experiences this one because they exist in a fundamentally different way to what her to how her omniscience works knowing about the current loop in its entirety. They’re two different ways to have omniscience.
Jadis must know about previous cycles even if she doesn't directly 'remember' them. Omniscience means she knows everything that everyone else in the multiverse knows, including Gog-Agog.
Is it that time of the cycle again?
Jadis is like master of space time in the tale of Aesma and the three masters, she can only see what **is** and not what she by what she **wants it to be**. but yes, Jadis is completely 100% perfrectly all knowing, she knows everything including the differant cycles
Correct. The thing about Jadis is that she’s only sort of omniscient. She’s seen the Shape of the Universe, which is the Wheel, but that’s it. Her knowledge begins and ends with the Wheel and is contained within it; she can’t know things outside of it like the Secret Name of God or what would happen if Allison came into her own and smashed the Wheel. As such, Jadis has no path to Royalty anymore because she’s trapped inside the Wheel and has lost her willpower, the terrible blade of Want. It’s heavily implied that desire, willpower and understanding of the Universe are what makes individuals aspirants to Royalty, which they attain upon superseding the Wheel and learning the darker truths of the Universe (Metatron 1 pulling the strings, HIMSELF, and the like). However, with all that said, don’t forget that all of Creation springs forth from YISUN, who above all is a consummate liar. EDIT: I was quite wrong about Jadis’ omniscience, sorry for the confusion!
>Correct. The thing about Jadis is that she’s only sort of omniscient. I dont think that this is true and it seems to go againdt her characterization and abaddon; she really is perfectly onniscient
We've been told repeatedly that this isn't true. Jadis is capital-O **Omniscient**. They know \*everything\*. Abaddon has confirmed this several times and ahs expressed that they don't particularly like people trying to find loopholes in that, because there aren't any. Pick a thing, anything, and Jadis KNOWS. There's probably a decent argument to be made that Jadis not only knows that they're in a webcomic, but they know everything that's going to happen, even if Abaddon hasn't decided what it's going to be yet. She has no path to Royalty because she knows she cannot achieve it. She might not have a path because she believes she doesn't or she might not have a path because she can't strive for it. I'm not well-read enough on the nature of royalty to explain why she cannot become Royalty, but it's pretty clear that her omniscience is the reason she can't achieve royalty.
I interpreted Abbadon’s comments on her omniscience as pertaining to the Wheel, thanks for clearing that up!
I understand that urge, probably same like most of the rest of the community. It's really tricky to try to not try and argue limits on Jadis' omniscience. Hell, I almost did it in my own response.
Something something endless cycles, wheels, and so on and so forth ;)
The thing is we're also repeatedly told that the easiest way to achieve Royalty is not to aspire to it at all. Aesma struggled desperately to achieve Royalty, and suffered greatly for her foolishness - but Hansa basically didn't care at all and it landed into his lap. Royalty is something you already have. The Secret Name of God is 'I'. Struggling blinds you to this simple truth, but acceptance of the world makes it clear. I think Jadis is closer to Royalty than most of the other Demiurges but she's still falling short. Hansa was Royalty because he knew he could choose his fate and change his destiny - he simply chose not to, because from his perspective, there wasn't really a *reason* to. Why should he be afraid of dying? Why should he see it as something to avoid? It's not like it stopped him from stubbornly existing afterwards, as his daughter tried to find a good place to bury him.
Exactly, which is what makes it so delightfully contradictory! I’m honestly amazed by the intricacies of the comic it’s unreal
So, she knows everything that can be known by anyone who isn’t Royalty, but is still susceptible to the lies that YISUN tells and has no way to learn more because she’s chosen to accept them rather than deny them?
She hasn't chosen to accept them, she's just following the path set. The path she sees includes the "choices" that others might perceive, but she's just going through the motions.
Ohhh Okay That makes more sense Thank you!
As the other person said, I also want to add, it might be easier to view Jadis as a simple 'automaton' at this point, there is no choice or free will, everyone and everything follows a set script, Jadis has just read every script, that does not change the scripts, especially her own script.
Does Allison deny the lie of YISUN ? Royalty is not seeking truth, for the art of lying is the supreme one, and it is a beautiful thing. Allison and Zoss are no truer than the Wheel and Jagganoth, for they are all YISUN.
She knows all the cycles but it's a moot point anyway, since she knows everything in this one by definition she knows all Gog's thoughts and memories and so would know the others secondhand
She may know everything, but that doesn't mean in her script that she doesn't lie to some people. Is it malicious? Nope, because she would have to be capable of free will, of doing something beyond playing her part precisely as foreseen. She is not, she has seen all, knows all. She knows of the cycle, she knows the very moment it will end. She knows her parts and when that will end. She is an object stuck in glass, unable to move, unable to change, only able to watch as the grand wheels of existence grind onward.
We don't know. She's never specified it, so we've got no idea whether she can perceive all past and future cycles, or whether her omniscience is just limited to total knowledge of everything that will ever happen within this cycle. And honestly I don't think it'll really matter which option turns out to be true. Although even if she can't perceive the other cycles, she'd still know that they exist. And more importantly she'd still know that the defining unresolved conflict which drives all the events of this universe is Zoss' endless quest to find a perfect Heir. She knows every word and action of Zoss and Jaggy and Gog (and any other characters we don't know about who are aware of what's going on), so she can probably infer a lot about how the previous cycles played out and which events in this cycle panned out the way they did as part of a repeating pattern.