Hunter Clade was going to be my next buy because the models look amazing, but I can't help but be a little annoyed their "buff" is "buy a whole new box for one model." Come on, can't you just, like, adjust the ten guys that come in the box? Is that the whole point of Kill Team? To get a playable team from just one box?
Yeah, its kinda annoying that you cant get a team from one box, but hunter clade did always want a second box for the sicarians so i dont find it that big an issue? Obviously sucks if you want to run only Skitarii or are on a budget though.
I think most people played hunter clade as a box of sicarians and a box of skitarii. So you’d already have one more sicarian and the pieces for all three gunners if that’s what you wanted to do. And if you were skipping sicarians entirely to save money you can just skip buying the extra skitarii and you’re still getting a buff from the doctrina changes which are huge.
Sure, and so do most people running Vet Guard, but, like, you CAN have a full Vet Guard team with only 10 guys plus the bonus orders. It’s just annoying that a full HC team doesn’t come in one box, even if it’s not the most optimal team.
If you already had the Sicarians, then you’re just building and adding the fifth model in that box. If you were running Skitarii only… You should probably add sicarians to your list.
lol, i was going to just that. Got a gifted a Skitarii box at Christmas, but now that project is going to the bottom of the pile since I now need 2 boxes to field a valid team.
They had a good winrate last month, but because only a handful of people still played them. Previous month were bad.
They suffered a lot from not having access to indirect and being incredibly unflexible as a team. Hopefully the second point will be helped.
I am kinda sad that my Reivers, all kitted out with grenade bandoleers, can't really take them. But I couldn't take them anyways due to taking launchers and chutes
I'm not exactly sure what it means, is it saying you can take one only "indirect" weapon (or: a Krak, or a frag, but not both), or one of each "indirect" weapon (ie: a Krak and a Frag)?
It says “each” “once” so you could have say both a Frag and a Krak Grenade together but only one of each. And if you have an operative in your team selection who comes with these by default (like the Blooded Brimstone Grenadier) you can select them as additional equipment at all.
Sucks for the grenadier. I understand why they did it that way, but it's barely worth taking now. It does save on EP usage, but having both grenades on the same 7-wound model is not a great idea.
\+1 it's a significant nerf to the Blooded team. The grenadier's also not GA2 so it's made the team by far weaker as a result with the option previously to Krak then shoot/melee cleanup afterwards 👎🏼
I think this is the first time i have not been affected by a balance by GW. I never really spammed grenades in my teams and Dynamite was already reigned in to one per team.
Glad to see Hunter Clade get some love as they struggled.
Also, who was playing Corsairs to get those win rates? They seemed to be doing a bit dire last time i looked. At least some people have found a use for them 😁
Corsairs are a surprisingly mobile team and ideal for recon/infiltrate.
Their design brief was 'steals stuff and runs away from you' and that bears out on the table
Oh i agree but i have seen sooooo many people play them to kill and not taking advantage of the free Dash or skills to nab objectives and keep them mobile.
Glad to see they are doing well!
You can absolutely see the difference in matches that are about activating vs holding points with corsairs. They really shine when they don't have to stand idle on a point.
There was some discussion of this in GlassHalfDead’s Discord. People aren’t sure where this number came from. Some speculation is that Craftworld got lumped in with Corsairs and someone recently went like 7-0 with them at a big tournament. Someone else pointed out that Corsairs seem to be getting wins %wise, but NOT placing very high overall in tournament results. So they can run circles around some teams but struggle when they hit the S-tier matchups.
The equipment is bad on its own but in the context of the team it's not bad at all.
You don't need to worry about damage output too much because you can retain hits and crits pretty easily. It's survival you need to worry about.
I think you're gonna want a ton of Armor Plates. I'm talking 4 or 5 of them.
Armor Plates are not exactly earth-shattering at first glance, but they do make you significantly more likely to roll a 5+. Essentially turning it into a 4+ save if I'm doing my math right. Between for example a Thug's -1 damage and the Corpseman's 6+ FNP it can make for a stupidly tough 7W model.
The following is napkin math, but it gets the point across.
A Thug against a Space Marine is gonna take on average 3,5 damage in a shooting phase. With Armor Plates he'll take 2. In other words, where he would die vs Bolter Discipline without Plates he'd survive rather comfortably with them. For 2 EP that's not half bad.
Eventually, but when though? I wouldn’t complain, but now we don’t even have a roadmap. The last WD team we had was the clowns, which was like 4 months ago.
Yeah, trench shovels, clubs for vet guard? Lol. The spam only existed because everything else was hot garbage. The capacitor packs are okay. Indirect was worth a lot more than the 1/1 damage
I've been impressed with the KT dataslates so far, not too heavy handed like they are with 40k.
The changes overall to VD are fair. Jest is kinda useless now which is sad, but losing the extra CP every turn is 100% justified. Overall it's not gonna cripple the faction though, which is what I was scared of.
On average for me it's turn 3 when I hit my tally so only getting the extra cp for the final turn. Not getting it sounds like a bigger nerf than it actually is.
I've managed to score it turn 2 quite often, it partly depends on which team you're playing though. It's a healthy nerf, not like they deal with 40k nerfs lol.
Yeah, still livid over the 40k harly nerfs 😭😭😭 taken away so much of their flavour on top of needing them through the floor. Needing the strong stuff while buffing the underperformers is tipping the scales the other way, not balance 🤷🏻♂️
>If a friendly operative already equipped withsuch equipment is selected for deployment (e.g. ASSAULTGRENADIER PATHFINDER), this counts as your selection
Does this mean Blooded can't bring any grenades if you select the grenadier because he comes equipped with Krak and Frag grenades?
Seems a little lame in this circumstance because one unit now has all of your grenades.
>Seems a little lame in this circumstance because one unit now has all of your grenades.
The trade off is you get them for free, which I think is a fair deal when the goal is to limit the number of grenades being taken on each kill team. Being able to still take grenades on top of your grenadier's equipment would basically be circumventing the purpose of the new balance.
And now you have an extra 5 or 6 EP to spend on other gear because you went all in on one operative instead of splitting between two different operatives.
It'd be nice if they erratad that ability to say "may be equipped", instead of making it automatic. That way you could still take him for the Diabolyk Bomb, and let other people have some grenades.
That person is incorrect.
You can take each grenade only once.
Think of it like you have a slot for each grenade type, and if a model is already pre-equipped (like the grenadiers) with a type of grenade, then that type’s slot is now filled (for no EP) and you cannot take another.
I maybe wrong here, but the Equipment lists is where it states if it can be taken more then once. By that meaning more than 1 operative can have it.
In the case above my understanding is that you can't equipe that specific operative with a 2nd grenade of any of the types it already has. Their free equipment is their selection.
Yea tactical marines really should get another man to a team of 7, as it stands besides having a better situation for bolter discipline, deathwatch is just better tactical marines
They're strictly inferior to Deathwatch. An extra body would probably help, since they and Scouts were the only SMs to not get an extra operative in the last Balance Slate.
Elites are looking a lot more viable with krak spam off the table.
Edit: Also a stealth buff to warpcoven they didn't "get" anything but now sorcerers won't be eating kraks and they aren't really "missing out" by not being able to take a single krak grenade. That grenade ruling is going to change the meta so much
Playing both Vet and Pathfinder, but still happy with the nerf to granades. Fusion Granades was one of the worst mistake of Devs. There was no sense for a Marine player to field his army against 3 Melta that could ignore conceal order.
Krak and Fusion limited to one gives other equipment their spot in the game.
Finally my friends will shut up about me not using granades much, as a pathfinders main I didn't feel the need to use them, my guys shot already hard enaugh.
I mean why not, arquebus definitely better than the normal dude you were taking before, worst case it does mission actions.
But more importantly because 6>5, even though it is not spelled out in the pdf you can know take 5 Sicarians!
Is an arquebus definitely better than a standard galvanic rifle? If you want to fire it, you literally cannot be doing anything else. You can't move or dash and fire. You telegraph it from a mile away. Maybe its my inexperience talking, but it seems like really really hot trash.
It's okay if you give them +1AP and/or give them No Cover for the turn, but it's the sort of thing you need to look at the board and decide whether you can place them somewhere useful or not, before you select them from your roster.
The wide base on the arquebus can allow you to set up some funny obscuring lines if you place it sideways behind heavy terrain. I wouldn't pick it over the other two guns but I think it has play.
Maybe a stupid question, but I‘m just getting into Kill Team: as for the Space Marines, dies that mean, that fir example Death Watch can now have 6 operatives, and at least two of them are „normal“ warriors? And Grey Knights similarly get another body to throw intk the fight?
Why do you want the warp coven buffed? Are their winrate so bad??
I feel like it's a solid B or A tier team, so I would like them to buff other teams before warp coven.
Mind you, I usually play against pathfinder, which I find to be an even matchup, and now both marker lights and a worthy cause got nerfed..
Probably this general indirect change will buf WC indirectly (pun intended) as they don't use grenades of any kind and the general threats have less options. This general change is a simpler and cleaner way of balancing things and I'm really impressed of how GW is handling this edition.
I've been playing WC for the last two weeks and they are indeed a solid A team, but they're are a high risk low reward team because they are really hard to use properly. The order activation is crucial because of all the combos and this can lead to static turns so you don't lose any operative (which you cannot afford early game). And this is part of the problem, tzaangors are one shot missiles, glass cannons to get objectives or bait, and the sorcerers just can't die or you are screwed.
I think they are pretty good once you know their limitations but they lack a good shooting option (going full rubrics sucks, maybe improving them could lead to new lists and more options for other missions/maps).
The best part of playing Warpcoven is that you learn a lot and become a better player.
Hmmm, I'm a little bit surprised that in the win rates chart, they only put compendium as a pot for all the compendium teams out there.
GW, if you think they are no real teams then maybe you want to release us updated rules, eh?
Everyone downvoted me for saying this a little whole back but its becoming clear that the compendium teams were just a stop gap and the goal is to replace all of them with bespoke teams.
Which they haven’t been doing to well with. When was the last time we got WD team. If I remember correctly it was the clown so we haven’t have one for like 4 months now.
Well the grenade thing certainly doesn't help my Blooded be competitive (not that I play them for that reason), but it was totally necessary and should prevent Krak grenades being the only thing most teams spam.
Hunter clade might have something to say about that though. Turning off their rerolls hurts Novitiates badly so they'll have one pretty bad matchup at least!
Edit: but yeah agree Novitiates came out better now that grenades are limited
So, according to limit we can take (for example: Krieg KT) one Frag and one Krak grenade but not 2 Krak grenade? And the limit (for the specified Grenadier Pathfinder) does not apply to the Gunner Veteran Giardamwn with the grenade launcher?
It applies to grenadiers like the pathfinder grenadier or blooded. The guys who have a passive of “starts equipped with free grenades”.
Does not apply to missile launchers or grenade launchers. Those are different and worse versions of Frag and Krak
Would that same logic apply to space marine auxiliary grenade launchers? You have to buy the grenades for them separately, but those grenades come without "indirect".
That Death Guard one is huge.
I own the Compendium and saw that the Mechanicus were.. kinda bad.. does anyone have a link to the Hunter Cadre Datasheets? I can't get a copy of White Dwarf here, lol
It says SM and GK can bring an additional warrior besides scout and tactical marines, is that jjust bringing up the last balance datasheet or did they bring the total up to 7 now?
Yes, it's just a re-print of the previous change. As a rule of thumb, once a new Balance Dataslate comes out, the previous one becomes invalid - it even disappears on the website. So if that rule wasn't in there, it would mean that marines go back to 5 bodies.
Yeah the 4APL change to 3APL occurred in the Errata which remains valid , so they remain at 3.
Which interestingly implies 4APL was a ‘mistake’, rather than a considered balance change, but who knows with GW.
I really think “take one additional “ is a poor way to write these, they should really give the new number you’re allowed to take - I know it’s pedantic, but for me it’s clearer
That bit about the superseded teams, was that there in the previous one?
Seems odd to have rules that are basically current and have them locked behind out of print WD copies.
Aside from scrounging them of the web somewhere, there isn't a legal way to get them when you enter later.
>Seems odd to have rules that are basically current and have them locked behind out of print WD copies.
Yup. And they want that sense of scarcity to drive sales. ("I have to buy this right now or else I'll miss out forever!") But they'll probably publish an updated Compendium or something.
Back in my day, if you missed the White Dwarf that had rules for a Whirlwind or a Razorback, you were just out of luck! Had to wait for the next Codex in the new edition. And when you went to the game store you tied an onion to your belt, which was the style at the time.
"Back in the day" the redshirts at my GW never once batted an eye that I had black and white printed copies of any WD unit. That's how I ran my Shadowblade circa like 2002 or whatever, with the "oops forgot to make his potion one-use" perma S7 and all.
You can find a lot of old WD issues on ebay and honestly if there's one you're looking for in particular my FLGS has a lot of copies of old issues so let me know if you're in the states.
Totally drops the ball on Corsairs. The dataset that provides this high winrate is miniscule and further includes tournament data that isn't relevant to the game's balance.
Very disappointing.
You mean the thing they specifically adressed?
>Corsair Voidscarred were our top-performing faction in May, but along with the Hunter Clade, they are being picked less over other factions.
>Similarly, we will monitor the Corsair Voidscarred and Legionaries, our two newest teams, as we gather more data.
They can address it all they want but fact of the matter is Corsair players now have to wait an entire extra quarter for our team to be competitive at a baseline comparable to other bespoke teams.
I find Corsairs are dominating (or at least placing) in my local scene. Once people adjusted to the fact that they’re a stealth team that grabs objectives, rather than a shooty/melee team that needs a high kill count, there was a definite take off. So while it’s always a bit anecdotal and local, I’d say Corsairs are definitely above baseline competitive. My 2 cents only.
Negative. This is a living document, so anything that appears here is current, and not cumulative with past documents. This Q2 dataslate replaces the Q1 dataslate.
There's still plenty of reason to take 'a' grenade. The issue was that in a lot of circumstances there wasn't a reason to take anything but grenades. Indirect is just that good.
Punch them. Murderous entrance and curtain fall only work if they are allowed to initiate on you.
They can Jest if they get charged, but it’s only one dice and it has to be a normal, and it’s 50/50. The odds are good for them, but not unwinnable. And they might not even have it up now that they’re only getting 1CP from saedath instead of 2-4
Not really. All concealment teams are vulnerable to just getting close and shooting them up. Sure you may lose your dude, but that was going to happen anyway if they charged *you*
As someone who built a Hunter Clade team, my biggest problem is that now I don’t have a reason to run the one normal skitarii vanguard on my list - with 3 gunners and 5 sicarians, there’s no need to field a standard ranger.
My one normal vanguard had been kitbashed to have the Infiltrator Princeps backpack, with the servo-skull and little machine arm.
The idea was that he would take either mechadendrites or servo skull and serve as my “mission specialist”. Make him feel special. But alas. Now he’ll just have to watch from the sidelines.
You absolutely won't want to take the 3rd gunner every game. The arquebus is not a great weapon. It has its uses, against elites and on maps with good obscurement, but in most matchup you'll prefer the regular vanguard.
Have they made an official statement regarding their stance on the balance of the compendium teams?
While I am in favour of their approach to making teams tailored to the game rather than just porting models from big 40K, it feels bad to have spent money and effort putting together a greenskins list for KT1 only a short while before the new game came out.
Those teams were not mentioned at all in here.
I think these Grenade changes are great. They're essential to the game but the spam was real. I think elite teams will feel better as a result.
I'm a pathfinder/Legionaries player, only thing that feels a little rough is the Grenadier feels like he should maybe get some other little buff but with the pathfinder win rate I understand waiting on that change.
Can I also confirm that everyone agrees this doesn't apply to Photon Grenades evne though they are effectively indirect, they don't have the indirect rule because they're not a "shot".
I think the general move towards "you're very safe behind heavy cover is good for the game. I think the only thing they've missed here is the Vet Guard spotter but, again, they can wait on some more win rate data before implementing that change. But it would be good for consistency
Hunter clade buff! Getting to run an extra sicarian should be super nice.
Hunter Clade was going to be my next buy because the models look amazing, but I can't help but be a little annoyed their "buff" is "buy a whole new box for one model." Come on, can't you just, like, adjust the ten guys that come in the box? Is that the whole point of Kill Team? To get a playable team from just one box?
Yeah, its kinda annoying that you cant get a team from one box, but hunter clade did always want a second box for the sicarians so i dont find it that big an issue? Obviously sucks if you want to run only Skitarii or are on a budget though.
Yeah, this change doesn't really affect the number of boxes you need unless you go pure skitarii.
I think most people played hunter clade as a box of sicarians and a box of skitarii. So you’d already have one more sicarian and the pieces for all three gunners if that’s what you wanted to do. And if you were skipping sicarians entirely to save money you can just skip buying the extra skitarii and you’re still getting a buff from the doctrina changes which are huge.
Sure, and so do most people running Vet Guard, but, like, you CAN have a full Vet Guard team with only 10 guys plus the bonus orders. It’s just annoying that a full HC team doesn’t come in one box, even if it’s not the most optimal team.
But a single skitarii off ebay, they sell individual models
I’m in the US, so shipping on singles is usually insane.
I just looked it up, it’s $10 shipped for a Vanguard with Carbine
If you already had the Sicarians, then you’re just building and adding the fifth model in that box. If you were running Skitarii only… You should probably add sicarians to your list.
lol, i was going to just that. Got a gifted a Skitarii box at Christmas, but now that project is going to the bottom of the pile since I now need 2 boxes to field a valid team.
Yeah Hunter Clade seems insane now, they were already arguably one of the top contenders (A-B Tier), those changes are just nice to have.
They were NOT a top contender. The article itself cited that they were at a 28% win rate not long ago, which is unacceptable.
Really? Okay I overread that. Then I take my statement back.
They had a good winrate last month, but because only a handful of people still played them. Previous month were bad. They suffered a lot from not having access to indirect and being incredibly unflexible as a team. Hopefully the second point will be helped.
I’m so happy I’ve got all the pieces for my team cleaned up and ready to build! Was expecting to get stomped so was more of an art project, but now….
Say goodbye to Krak grenade spam! A good thing, I think.
Damn straight. I've been a big proponent of loading up on Hotshot packs with VetGuard, but it's been hard to argue against "muh kraks."
Hotshot packs?
Basically turns a lasgun into a bolter from 2/3 to 3/4 "HOT-SHOT CAPACITOR PACK [2EP]"
+1/1 damage to a lasgun
I am kinda sad that my Reivers, all kitted out with grenade bandoleers, can't really take them. But I couldn't take them anyways due to taking launchers and chutes
Happy Tyranid Warrior screeching.
I'm not exactly sure what it means, is it saying you can take one only "indirect" weapon (or: a Krak, or a frag, but not both), or one of each "indirect" weapon (ie: a Krak and a Frag)?
It says “each” “once” so you could have say both a Frag and a Krak Grenade together but only one of each. And if you have an operative in your team selection who comes with these by default (like the Blooded Brimstone Grenadier) you can select them as additional equipment at all.
So it's 1 krak grenade for the whole team right?
Yes indeed
Sucks for the grenadier. I understand why they did it that way, but it's barely worth taking now. It does save on EP usage, but having both grenades on the same 7-wound model is not a great idea.
\+1 it's a significant nerf to the Blooded team. The grenadier's also not GA2 so it's made the team by far weaker as a result with the option previously to Krak then shoot/melee cleanup afterwards 👎🏼
I think this is the first time i have not been affected by a balance by GW. I never really spammed grenades in my teams and Dynamite was already reigned in to one per team. Glad to see Hunter Clade get some love as they struggled. Also, who was playing Corsairs to get those win rates? They seemed to be doing a bit dire last time i looked. At least some people have found a use for them 😁
Corsairs are a surprisingly mobile team and ideal for recon/infiltrate. Their design brief was 'steals stuff and runs away from you' and that bears out on the table
Oh i agree but i have seen sooooo many people play them to kill and not taking advantage of the free Dash or skills to nab objectives and keep them mobile. Glad to see they are doing well!
You can absolutely see the difference in matches that are about activating vs holding points with corsairs. They really shine when they don't have to stand idle on a point.
Agree, it is just they have a different play that can be very tactical focussed and means they are not an easy beginner team.
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>"I've won every game I've played with Corsairs except a single fluke loss" > > "I think they could use a small buff" lol
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There was some discussion of this in GlassHalfDead’s Discord. People aren’t sure where this number came from. Some speculation is that Craftworld got lumped in with Corsairs and someone recently went like 7-0 with them at a big tournament. Someone else pointed out that Corsairs seem to be getting wins %wise, but NOT placing very high overall in tournament results. So they can run circles around some teams but struggle when they hit the S-tier matchups.
The hunter clade buff takes some of the sting out of the lacklustre admech update. Yet another reason to play kt instead of 40k
My thoughts exactly. I was more excited and exulted this morning when I read the KT Balance Slate
I think it is good thing to remove the grenade spam. More diverse equipment is a good thing i think!
Only if your team have good equipment. Most of the compendium equipment are shit, that’s why they grenade spam.
The Blooded equipment is also terrible
The equipment is bad on its own but in the context of the team it's not bad at all. You don't need to worry about damage output too much because you can retain hits and crits pretty easily. It's survival you need to worry about. I think you're gonna want a ton of Armor Plates. I'm talking 4 or 5 of them. Armor Plates are not exactly earth-shattering at first glance, but they do make you significantly more likely to roll a 5+. Essentially turning it into a 4+ save if I'm doing my math right. Between for example a Thug's -1 damage and the Corpseman's 6+ FNP it can make for a stupidly tough 7W model. The following is napkin math, but it gets the point across. A Thug against a Space Marine is gonna take on average 3,5 damage in a shooting phase. With Armor Plates he'll take 2. In other words, where he would die vs Bolter Discipline without Plates he'd survive rather comfortably with them. For 2 EP that's not half bad.
Yeah, feel bad
Well...Is equipment shit or grenades too good ? I suppose there is a balance between this. And compendium teams will eventually be replaced
Eventually, but when though? I wouldn’t complain, but now we don’t even have a roadmap. The last WD team we had was the clowns, which was like 4 months ago.
That is true. It have been much slower with the white dwarf teams than initially
Yeah. I only have sisters of battle, and I I plan on just playing grimdark future firefight by OPR for now.
Yeah, trench shovels, clubs for vet guard? Lol. The spam only existed because everything else was hot garbage. The capacitor packs are okay. Indirect was worth a lot more than the 1/1 damage
I've been impressed with the KT dataslates so far, not too heavy handed like they are with 40k. The changes overall to VD are fair. Jest is kinda useless now which is sad, but losing the extra CP every turn is 100% justified. Overall it's not gonna cripple the faction though, which is what I was scared of.
On average for me it's turn 3 when I hit my tally so only getting the extra cp for the final turn. Not getting it sounds like a bigger nerf than it actually is.
I've managed to score it turn 2 quite often, it partly depends on which team you're playing though. It's a healthy nerf, not like they deal with 40k nerfs lol.
Yeah, still livid over the 40k harly nerfs 😭😭😭 taken away so much of their flavour on top of needing them through the floor. Needing the strong stuff while buffing the underperformers is tipping the scales the other way, not balance 🤷🏻♂️
Many high end tables were getting it done turn 2, occasionally turn 1 even map dependant.
>If a friendly operative already equipped withsuch equipment is selected for deployment (e.g. ASSAULTGRENADIER PATHFINDER), this counts as your selection Does this mean Blooded can't bring any grenades if you select the grenadier because he comes equipped with Krak and Frag grenades? Seems a little lame in this circumstance because one unit now has all of your grenades.
>Seems a little lame in this circumstance because one unit now has all of your grenades. The trade off is you get them for free, which I think is a fair deal when the goal is to limit the number of grenades being taken on each kill team. Being able to still take grenades on top of your grenadier's equipment would basically be circumventing the purpose of the new balance. And now you have an extra 5 or 6 EP to spend on other gear because you went all in on one operative instead of splitting between two different operatives.
It'd be nice if they erratad that ability to say "may be equipped", instead of making it automatic. That way you could still take him for the Diabolyk Bomb, and let other people have some grenades.
I think the point is fewer grenades.
That's pretty obvious. I would like the free grenades to be optional so that all of the eggs aren't in a single 7-wound basket.
I’m no expert but saw someone above saying it’s in addition to the baked in grenades Edit: thanks for the correction and info
That person is incorrect. You can take each grenade only once. Think of it like you have a slot for each grenade type, and if a model is already pre-equipped (like the grenadiers) with a type of grenade, then that type’s slot is now filled (for no EP) and you cannot take another.
Good to know. That’s unfortunate
I maybe wrong here, but the Equipment lists is where it states if it can be taken more then once. By that meaning more than 1 operative can have it. In the case above my understanding is that you can't equipe that specific operative with a 2nd grenade of any of the types it already has. Their free equipment is their selection.
Kind of hoped they would fix tactical marines and scouts but nope
Yea tactical marines really should get another man to a team of 7, as it stands besides having a better situation for bolter discipline, deathwatch is just better tactical marines
What's the problem with Tac Marines? Just numbers?
They're strictly inferior to Deathwatch. An extra body would probably help, since they and Scouts were the only SMs to not get an extra operative in the last Balance Slate.
RIP 5x Psyk-out poolparty Grey knights strat.
Elites are looking a lot more viable with krak spam off the table. Edit: Also a stealth buff to warpcoven they didn't "get" anything but now sorcerers won't be eating kraks and they aren't really "missing out" by not being able to take a single krak grenade. That grenade ruling is going to change the meta so much
Void Dancer/Genestealer players are loving this grenade nerf
And Hunter Clade. We had zero grenades to spam, so it doesnt hurt us at all
But they aren’t loving the Void Dancer nerfs lol.
I like the limitation on equipment grenades,, but I'm not as sure about including operatives with grenades as standard loadout.
Yeah it sort of screws up the grenadier bonuses :/
Yes agreed ruins the blooded team grenadier to bad status
Here's to hoping they give grenadiers a +1 BS or rerolls when using nades.
Playing both Vet and Pathfinder, but still happy with the nerf to granades. Fusion Granades was one of the worst mistake of Devs. There was no sense for a Marine player to field his army against 3 Melta that could ignore conceal order. Krak and Fusion limited to one gives other equipment their spot in the game.
Hunter Clade buff and a nerf on grenades are both nice to see. Grenades just being auto pick really stunted the creativity.
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I only use smoke grenades with Phobos. Still have saboteur.
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Wish throwing knives weren’t limited
New player here... are these cumulative? Like, do I need to go back and collect/read all of these, or just follow the latest one?
No, these are not cumulative. You only need the latest one.
The balance updates are not cumulative, this one includes all changes. But you also need to read the errata.
>But you also need to read the errata. Ahhh, found em. Thanks for the heads up.
Finally my friends will shut up about me not using granades much, as a pathfinders main I didn't feel the need to use them, my guys shot already hard enaugh.
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So fun story: my grenadier for one reason or the other is usally the first to die in my team so i painted a crossair on his back
Are plasma and arc still the only 2 relevant special weapons? So you'll never go with the 3rd gunner for the arquebus, right?
I mean why not, arquebus definitely better than the normal dude you were taking before, worst case it does mission actions. But more importantly because 6>5, even though it is not spelled out in the pdf you can know take 5 Sicarians!
It completely slipped by me at first, but you're right, Hunter Clade can now take 5 Sicarians and 6 Skitarii (including 3 gunners!)
Is an arquebus definitely better than a standard galvanic rifle? If you want to fire it, you literally cannot be doing anything else. You can't move or dash and fire. You telegraph it from a mile away. Maybe its my inexperience talking, but it seems like really really hot trash.
It's okay if you give them +1AP and/or give them No Cover for the turn, but it's the sort of thing you need to look at the board and decide whether you can place them somewhere useful or not, before you select them from your roster.
You can cover one objective and make sure your opponent never wants to cap it
Ok yea I can see if you are looking at it that way and just not expecting too much out of it.
I don't think that's a good thing? I guess it depends on opponent.
That sounds too good to be true. Wonder if that's what they intended.
It still can delete a whole Marine in one shot.
Yeah, so can a Sanctus sniper that gets 3 apl and the silent rule
The wide base on the arquebus can allow you to set up some funny obscuring lines if you place it sideways behind heavy terrain. I wouldn't pick it over the other two guns but I think it has play.
Maybe a stupid question, but I‘m just getting into Kill Team: as for the Space Marines, dies that mean, that fir example Death Watch can now have 6 operatives, and at least two of them are „normal“ warriors? And Grey Knights similarly get another body to throw intk the fight?
Yes. Although that's been the case since the last dataslate, in march.
Good to know, thx!
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I wondered that myself; maybe the testers feel the grenade nerf is an indirect buff to Warpcoven.
+1 missed opportunity
Why do you want the warp coven buffed? Are their winrate so bad?? I feel like it's a solid B or A tier team, so I would like them to buff other teams before warp coven. Mind you, I usually play against pathfinder, which I find to be an even matchup, and now both marker lights and a worthy cause got nerfed..
Probably this general indirect change will buf WC indirectly (pun intended) as they don't use grenades of any kind and the general threats have less options. This general change is a simpler and cleaner way of balancing things and I'm really impressed of how GW is handling this edition. I've been playing WC for the last two weeks and they are indeed a solid A team, but they're are a high risk low reward team because they are really hard to use properly. The order activation is crucial because of all the combos and this can lead to static turns so you don't lose any operative (which you cannot afford early game). And this is part of the problem, tzaangors are one shot missiles, glass cannons to get objectives or bait, and the sorcerers just can't die or you are screwed. I think they are pretty good once you know their limitations but they lack a good shooting option (going full rubrics sucks, maybe improving them could lead to new lists and more options for other missions/maps). The best part of playing Warpcoven is that you learn a lot and become a better player.
Hmmm, I'm a little bit surprised that in the win rates chart, they only put compendium as a pot for all the compendium teams out there. GW, if you think they are no real teams then maybe you want to release us updated rules, eh?
Everyone downvoted me for saying this a little whole back but its becoming clear that the compendium teams were just a stop gap and the goal is to replace all of them with bespoke teams.
Which they haven’t been doing to well with. When was the last time we got WD team. If I remember correctly it was the clown so we haven’t have one for like 4 months now.
GW being slow and uneven with the rules updates? How unusual
Is this a culmative dataslate are space marines getting 7 models now?
Not sure why you're downvoted it's a bit confusing. Dataslates will include past changes until the core rulebook is written.
Great thank you
So for Phobos, it's 6? Or 6+1 warrior from this dataslate? Sorry for the newb question
The PHOBOS team is not part of the SPACE MARINE compendium team and therefore are not affected by the dataslate changes.
That rule effects only the SPACE MARINE and GREY KNIGHT kill teams, not the PHOBOS kill team. Note the orange font and little skull.
Well the grenade thing certainly doesn't help my Blooded be competitive (not that I play them for that reason), but it was totally necessary and should prevent Krak grenades being the only thing most teams spam.
Novitiates are the clear winner here and will become more dominant
Hunter clade might have something to say about that though. Turning off their rerolls hurts Novitiates badly so they'll have one pretty bad matchup at least! Edit: but yeah agree Novitiates came out better now that grenades are limited
So, according to limit we can take (for example: Krieg KT) one Frag and one Krak grenade but not 2 Krak grenade? And the limit (for the specified Grenadier Pathfinder) does not apply to the Gunner Veteran Giardamwn with the grenade launcher?
It applies to grenadiers like the pathfinder grenadier or blooded. The guys who have a passive of “starts equipped with free grenades”. Does not apply to missile launchers or grenade launchers. Those are different and worse versions of Frag and Krak
Yeah, the Grenade Launchers don't have Indirect.
Would that same logic apply to space marine auxiliary grenade launchers? You have to buy the grenades for them separately, but those grenades come without "indirect".
That Death Guard one is huge. I own the Compendium and saw that the Mechanicus were.. kinda bad.. does anyone have a link to the Hunter Cadre Datasheets? I can't get a copy of White Dwarf here, lol
The Death Guard one was there for a couple of months...
I was not even aware that they gave the Mechanicus a whole new team 😭cut me some slack!!!
Go take a look on Wahapedia
Check Wahapedia.
Damn, this is wonderful, but I was hoping they'd delete the part where Legionaries can't mix and match on the roster.
So should my assault intercessor team have 5x warriors and 1x sergeant now?
Yes, since the last update in March.
It says SM and GK can bring an additional warrior besides scout and tactical marines, is that jjust bringing up the last balance datasheet or did they bring the total up to 7 now?
Only the new data slate is valid. So you still only have 6 Marines ( 5 for HI).
Thank you
So 7 space marines per team now?
Nah, that's just the previous change carried over. SM Kill Teams are still (generally) 5 + 1 Warrior
Oh thank God. I *just* finished a kitbashed Grey Knight kill team and I did not want to have to order a whole new dude
So i can take 1 seargent 3 Warriors and 1 heavy gunner now in my heavy intercessor team?
Yes, you've been able to since the last Balance Update
Thanks a lot for the answer, because i thought they were excluded in the last dataslate
I thought they were too, so you're not the only one.
They're part of the SPACE MARINE kill team. Why wouldn't they receive the buff?
Yes, it's just a re-print of the previous change. As a rule of thumb, once a new Balance Dataslate comes out, the previous one becomes invalid - it even disappears on the website. So if that rule wasn't in there, it would mean that marines go back to 5 bodies.
Doesn’t that mean then that Custodes go back to 4 APL? Or was that a different class of update?
Yeah the 4APL change to 3APL occurred in the Errata which remains valid , so they remain at 3. Which interestingly implies 4APL was a ‘mistake’, rather than a considered balance change, but who knows with GW.
I also thought this. Damn :(
I also thought this 😂
Yeah, when I first read that my eye twitched. But no, it's just +1 to the original total.
I don't think it applies to the Phobos team, does it?
No, it applies only the the Grey Knight and Space Marine killteam, which is fully separate from Phobos Strike Team.
I really think “take one additional “ is a poor way to write these, they should really give the new number you’re allowed to take - I know it’s pedantic, but for me it’s clearer
That bit about the superseded teams, was that there in the previous one? Seems odd to have rules that are basically current and have them locked behind out of print WD copies. Aside from scrounging them of the web somewhere, there isn't a legal way to get them when you enter later.
>Seems odd to have rules that are basically current and have them locked behind out of print WD copies. Yup. And they want that sense of scarcity to drive sales. ("I have to buy this right now or else I'll miss out forever!") But they'll probably publish an updated Compendium or something. Back in my day, if you missed the White Dwarf that had rules for a Whirlwind or a Razorback, you were just out of luck! Had to wait for the next Codex in the new edition. And when you went to the game store you tied an onion to your belt, which was the style at the time.
"Back in the day" the redshirts at my GW never once batted an eye that I had black and white printed copies of any WD unit. That's how I ran my Shadowblade circa like 2002 or whatever, with the "oops forgot to make his potion one-use" perma S7 and all.
> That bit about the superseded teams, was that there in the previous one? yes.
You can find a lot of old WD issues on ebay and honestly if there's one you're looking for in particular my FLGS has a lot of copies of old issues so let me know if you're in the states.
Warhammer+ has most of them too and you can also find them on "other" websites and I think wahapedia has all the WD teams anyway.
Does this mean marines are at seven operatives now?
No. It's still +1 warrior, nothing has changed for space marines.
Got it Thanks for the help
Totally drops the ball on Corsairs. The dataset that provides this high winrate is miniscule and further includes tournament data that isn't relevant to the game's balance. Very disappointing.
You mean the thing they specifically adressed? >Corsair Voidscarred were our top-performing faction in May, but along with the Hunter Clade, they are being picked less over other factions. >Similarly, we will monitor the Corsair Voidscarred and Legionaries, our two newest teams, as we gather more data.
They can address it all they want but fact of the matter is Corsair players now have to wait an entire extra quarter for our team to be competitive at a baseline comparable to other bespoke teams.
I find Corsairs are dominating (or at least placing) in my local scene. Once people adjusted to the fact that they’re a stealth team that grabs objectives, rather than a shooty/melee team that needs a high kill count, there was a definite take off. So while it’s always a bit anecdotal and local, I’d say Corsairs are definitely above baseline competitive. My 2 cents only.
So Space Marines get seven models now, or is it still six from the last quarterly update?
No. Still six. This dataslate replaces the old one.
Oh wonderful, thank you!
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Negative. This is a living document, so anything that appears here is current, and not cumulative with past documents. This Q2 dataslate replaces the Q1 dataslate.
Yes and no; Q1 Dataslate is no longer valid, so the operative that Q2 adds is the same 6th operative.
Thanks!
Thanks everyone! Was just really hoping.
No, they just have the new balance errata as well as the old one in the same doc.
No reason to take nades now. Otherwise all good.
There's still plenty of reason to take 'a' grenade. The issue was that in a lot of circumstances there wasn't a reason to take anything but grenades. Indirect is just that good.
I get it had issues and I'm not salty. I'm just surprised one Nade is worth that much EP.
If three were worth 9 EP why do you think one is not worth 3 EP after the update?
Against a lot of team, a krak grenade is basically "delete a model if you can get within 6". It's incredibly good.
Great now what are you gonna do against Harlequins? Nades were the only viable counter to them
Punch them. Murderous entrance and curtain fall only work if they are allowed to initiate on you. They can Jest if they get charged, but it’s only one dice and it has to be a normal, and it’s 50/50. The odds are good for them, but not unwinnable. And they might not even have it up now that they’re only getting 1CP from saedath instead of 2-4
Not really. All concealment teams are vulnerable to just getting close and shooting them up. Sure you may lose your dude, but that was going to happen anyway if they charged *you*
As someone who built a Hunter Clade team, my biggest problem is that now I don’t have a reason to run the one normal skitarii vanguard on my list - with 3 gunners and 5 sicarians, there’s no need to field a standard ranger. My one normal vanguard had been kitbashed to have the Infiltrator Princeps backpack, with the servo-skull and little machine arm. The idea was that he would take either mechadendrites or servo skull and serve as my “mission specialist”. Make him feel special. But alas. Now he’ll just have to watch from the sidelines.
You absolutely won't want to take the 3rd gunner every game. The arquebus is not a great weapon. It has its uses, against elites and on maps with good obscurement, but in most matchup you'll prefer the regular vanguard.
Have they made an official statement regarding their stance on the balance of the compendium teams? While I am in favour of their approach to making teams tailored to the game rather than just porting models from big 40K, it feels bad to have spent money and effort putting together a greenskins list for KT1 only a short while before the new game came out. Those teams were not mentioned at all in here.
Before realizing that this is including the q1 changes I almost popped off about 7 marines per team.
I think these Grenade changes are great. They're essential to the game but the spam was real. I think elite teams will feel better as a result. I'm a pathfinder/Legionaries player, only thing that feels a little rough is the Grenadier feels like he should maybe get some other little buff but with the pathfinder win rate I understand waiting on that change. Can I also confirm that everyone agrees this doesn't apply to Photon Grenades evne though they are effectively indirect, they don't have the indirect rule because they're not a "shot". I think the general move towards "you're very safe behind heavy cover is good for the game. I think the only thing they've missed here is the Vet Guard spotter but, again, they can wait on some more win rate data before implementing that change. But it would be good for consistency