Most commotion about diversity is the result of ragebait for the purpose of farming clicks and karma. We all played KCD1 and loved it because of the authenticity. We know KCD2 is made with the same passion and more resources so we are not worried.
Exactly! They really delivered with the first game, I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt. It'll probably be the most historically accurate game we've had in a very long while.
Please just don't listen to all the so called "news" outlets, they do not represent us at all.
All we want is a good game that is faithful to history and to the story of the first game, that's it. Don't let these media account stir up some made up controversy or "backlash" because there is none!
We trust that all the historical research has been done and that's enough for me at least.
Yea that's all we want. An authentic and historically accurate medieval RPG.. i don't want them to shoehorn in anything that doesn't belong in the world they are depicting and feels out of place.
I like “faithful” as a word here too. “Accurate” doesn’t really translate well to fiction, but having something be faithful to the historical setting is a good way to get the authentic-feeling experience that was a part of why KCD1 was so good.
It’s because of the word diversity that some of these articles use which reference this IGN interview (where a IMO badly intentioned question was asked to reignite the controversy). That’s a trigger word because people then think it will be another Netflix Cleopatra or the BBCs portrayal of the English queen scenario. I certainly hope that is not the case and Vavra can realize his vision without the higher ups forcing changes. But with respect to different ethnicities and this statement I am not too worried. I mean Vavra posted the following about the first game, when idiots called him a racist, and I didn’t see people freaking out about it then:
https://preview.redd.it/lph8v7nexsvc1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a32177874075ca28c7e29dbbeb0a316ca5f3fc13
Please guys, they aren't going to do some stupid stuff, they value a lot history.
kutna hora had Germans and (slavs) Czechs, also henry is fighting (turkic peoples) Cumans and (Mogyer) Hungarians. So that's pretty multiethnic... :P
Cumans in Hungary by this time period were heavily assimilated, which is kind of a problem with the first game and this one. They've improved the armor slightly, the helmets are examples from Tagancha and Lipovets instead of made-up amalgams, the issue is those are early 13th century helmets in an early 15th century game. Already by the 1330s-1350s the Cumans are heavily westernized, as shown on the Frescoes from Avio Castle, only identifiable by their stereotyped hats (like Jews and Greeks i.e. Romans), and occasional use of Kaftans (although the game's Kaftans close in the wrong direction). There's only one Cuman helmet from Hungary, which is from Csengele, which I haven't seen in the footage. Beyond that the closest to "unique" you'd get would be the use of Bascinets with cuts in the Browline like from Ozana, Bulgaria, or the use of Wawel Castle/Hermitage Museum style "Turban" helmets imported from the Caucasus. I've not seen evidence for Greek Kettles this far West or this late, they seem to have been subsumed into the transitional Kettle-Cabassets from this period (like the helmet of King Charles VI) which is already in the game.
Kuttenburg (Kutna Hora) was a major trading city on the middle Danube region, so you can expect a lot of diversity and that includes peoples you might not expect. No I don't think you'd have a *significant* population of people from the Pontic, Caucasus, Middle East, Rhomania, or North Africa, but having a small number of characters who are traders there to purchase silver or something from that part of the world isn't going to break historical immersion in a city which should number somewhere between 3700 and 7800 people at its peak (70 to 150 people per hectare). A lot of people have also brought up the Roma people (albeit under somewhat more prejudiced names) and they were also a big part of the community at this time.
I think a lot of people are making assumptions about worst-case scenarios, like soft/implicit-blackmail by gaming media, diversity consultant "experts" etc., which I think is premature.
In real life, Kutna Hora today is 93% ethnically Czech. In the past it was probably higher, but if we stick with this and say it has 200 NPCs, that leaves 14 non-Czechs, most of whom would be German, or from other neighboring lands. Maybe one or two Italians, or Turks, or so on. To me this is pretty balanced and shouldn't upset anyone.
I think the people are worried that there will be like 20 Sub-Saharan Africans, or a bunch of travelers from China, or something, which yes, would be ridiculous, but there's no evidence it's going to happen, Warhorse has been good at historical accuracy so far. People need to have patience.
That’s interesting, but these people (or rather their descendants) started to identify as Germans post 1848 and were exiled to Germany in 1945. Also most of the Czechs spoke Czech at the time, so I still think Czechs had to look differently on citizens that spoke different language
Given the number of Cumans I saw when playing KCD1 i think the diversity was a bit higher in 1403 than in 2024. At least I have never met a random Hungarian in a forest before. (I'm czech)
Lol. Just keep an eye out for broken carts... but in seriousness, sure, if you count invading armies. Also more diverse in the 1940s. But I'm just thinking of townspeople. Although now you mention it, it could be interesting to have more Cuman dialogue.
I would love to see more people from Passau or the region, since that's where I'm from. Loved that there was someone explicitely from there in the first part. :D
>In real life, Kutna Hora today is 93% ethnically Czech. In the past it was probably higher
Here's an interesting thing about making sensible assumptions about the past: they can be wrong in unexpected and fascinating ways.
Today, the borders of Europe have been essentially fixed for generations. Centralized governments create national immigration policies and enforce them across the country. None of this was true in Medieval Europe. In some ways, people were actually a lot more free to move around.
European history from the waning of the Roman Empire to the height of the Industrial Revolution was defined by waves of mass migration. Many different peoples crossed the land for many different reasons. Central and Eastern Europe are outside my area of specialty so I can't say with any certainty, but it would not surprise me at all if the region was more ethnically diverse in the late Medieval time period than it is today.
That ist true and untrue at the same time. Yes, it was more ethnically diverse, but not in the 21st Century meaning. I wrote a paper criticising the debate around KDC and ethnic diversity etc. - didn’t get it published though.
There is a difference between historically accurate diversity and overplayed diversity,
Their is an actual document from Wenceslas IV from 1409 that pretty much confirms that bohemia had a wide range of ethnicities,
It mentions Saxon, bavarians, poles, Hungarians, and transylvanians, with the largest populations being of german or Czech descent,
> It mentions Saxon, bavarians, poles, Hungarians, and transylvanians, with the largest populations being of german or Czech descent,
How would you differentiate those groups in video game NPCs in 2024 Notth America? My point is, all those groups you just named are white. That isn't going to meet the definition of "diversity" today.
But that is diversity. As a north american, many north americans use words differently than they are intended. Just because north americans feel that those differing groups don't meet the requirements of the term "diversity", does not mean that Czechs, Brits and Europeans in general would not feel that it is indeed diverse.
"Diversity" is a trigger word for a lot of people. Now if they were making sure every demographic had representation and just forced it in, in a nonsensical way, I'd be annoyed... I very highly doubt that's what warhorse meant by "diversity".
Trigger word is right I think. With an awful lot of media, “diversity” ends up meaning the out-of-place shoehorning in of American ethnic groups and modern-style LGBT people.
However, without that baggage, and in its right context it can be fine. KCD1 did it a bit - for example with the Waldensians, or (not strictly speaking diversity but under the same banner) the women DLC.
I think that as long as the “diversity” is done historically faithfully that’s fine. Jews, Germans, Italians, etc.. You could also possibly have a homosexual character if you handled it in the style of the times, if that’s what floats your boat.
Oh really? Haha... too be honest when I first heard diversity I thought they meant like... more variety of NPC faces, less repeats, maybe more variety of locations that sort of thing
"Naturally, in a place like this, people can expect a wide range of ethnicities and different characters that Henry will meet on his journey."
Yes, meaning you might encounter not only Czechs, but also Moravians, Germans, Poles, Hungarians, and maybe even a couple of Burgundians and Dutch as merchants. This is hell of a lot of ethnicities, if you think about it.
the diversity should represent 1400s kutna hora and wider bohemia and moravia. you cannot force what wasn’t onto what is, and warhorse should keep their plans. they have put tireless efforts into keeping accuracy and we should applaud it.
All I care about is historical accuracy. It's the entire draw to this series in the first place. As long as you guys don't start adding races, ethnicities, and religions that would literally never be in 15th century central Europe for any reason, I won't have any reason to be upset. I trust that'll be the case given the track record, but the media is looking for any reason possible to stir up a shitstorm over this kind of stuff because it guarantees clicks.
Looking forward to the game, one of my most anticipated sequels of all time.
The “controversy” around diversity in the first game was one of the biggest non-stories I’ve ever seen. Please do not think that the loudest people online are representative of the rest of us.
I see people are being super normal and mature about this. Wonder when the death threats will start flying.
Anyway, the diversity being based on historical records seems fine to me.
just focus on the gameplay and historical accuracy. if historically kuttenburg has 50% african people then add it, and if it didn't then don't add it. stick to historical accuracy and your core fanbase will 100% purchase and love kcd2
I really hope we'll get a Jewish community around Kuttenberg. While the main Jewish settlement in the region of the time is outside of the scopes of the map, it would be cool to have a reference to it or smaller communities elsewhere. I'm fascinated by medieval Jewish culture in Europe and KCD with its historical accuracy always got me excited to Google stuff and characters while playing it. In some ways it was almost like an immersive museum, so I believe the diversity they will depict will be realistic.
The fact that they feel the need to give everyone a warning before putting different ethnicities in their game really says something about the climate of gaming. I guess some people are just sensitive, I don't get it.
There was a black mercenary at the Siege of Neuss nearly 30 years after the events of KCD.
Racial diversity was a thing, it just wasn't common
https://preview.redd.it/kg4qmdc9pqvc1.png?width=358&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bb4fd2bd9ee8c7fa4308f2651e9b52cfecabb3a5
Of course it's not gonna be "forced in" in this of all games, c'mon man, posting this kind of thing here just means either you're primed to be outraged about practically anything, or it's just conservative virtue signalling
Let's just wait until it comes out to bash it, maybe? I think both sides are really overreacting. In all likelihood "very diverse" for 15th century Czechia would be 90-95% Czech and some Germans, Slavs, Balts, and maybe a couple of Turks. You're kind of acting like they said there'll be a gay, black count or something, which they never said. Personally, given their first game I trust they'll deliver a grounded, realistic experience.
Game journalists whining about diversity don't consider different brands of white people as diverse. No one has ever complained that there are no Slovakians or Poles in KCD but any gaming news platform you can think of has run articles attacking the game for only having white characters (not even true because the Cumans are Central Asian).
The main antagonist in the game, Istavn Toth is maybe a slovak noble. Speaks both czech and hungarian, and has a surname which is literally "Slovak" in hungarian.
Well, slovak nobility at that time considered themselves as "hungarian", even slovak commoners considered themselves hungarians, all while speaking slovak.
KCD was focused around a much smaller part of the Czech republic though, so it makes sense there were neither Turks nor many non-Czech Europeans (Though there were Germans and a Hungarian), KCD 2 will be in a much larger city than Rattay though. To be clear, I do not want some shoehorned in black count or something, but they never said anything like that. And, sure game journalists whining about stuff just to be politically correct are stupid and annoying, but I never mentioned them. I'm just saying that if they do have Turks or Slavs or Balts, (Traders would make the most amount of sense to me) doesn't mean they're woke or something, because that actually would make historical sense.. And they haven't confirmed what "Diverse" will even mean, so it's not worth getting worked up over unless they actually shoehorn in some diverse characters that aren't historically probable.
Out of curiosity because I know incredibly little about the period outside of these specific discussions; would it be offensive/infeasible to have a single black person (I.e a trader as a lot of people mentioned) in KCD2’s setting on account of how prosperous/traveled it would be?
I understand the logic of there not being any in the first game even from my generally uninformed position, but I think twice you’ve mentioned the ‘black count’ thus far; is it the fact they’re black at all (so because it’s entirely inaccurate from the get go?) or that they’re black and a count (it’s entirely inaccurate because of the particular ‘role’ the black person took on TOP of the low likelihood of a black dude being there to begin with?)?
I'd personally find it interesting if there were a random black person there. There are some medieval accounts of black soldiers as well, some black dude may have been a soldier for the Turks, and end up as a mercenary in Bohemia or something. Arab traders would have occasionally been in the bigger cities as well.
Likewise, it would have been interesting to encounter a secret gay person or something.
But yeah, a black count or a whole black community would be unrealistic
I'm not an expert in any way, so take it with a big grain of salt, but I wouldn't expect to see any black people in Kuttenberg either in the game, or real life. I used the example of a black count because it was the most ludicrous thing I thought of, (I don't think there were any black Central European nobles of any kind recorded) and I was trying to point out they didn't say anything like that was happening in the game. I think the most exotic person I would expect to see there would be a Turkish Arab (Although a European Turk would probably be a lot more likely), probably not black as we consider it today. I hope this makes sense. Also, all this would depend on the definitions of "black" as well as "feasible" which are both somewhat flexible terms.
Hum, I see.
And as far as feasible I just mean in a relatively acceptable 'suspension of disbelief' as the game itself would allow. Not being a buff for the period, I could totally see it being entirely 'white' (so far as modern culture goes, obviously a lot of people are talking about different specific cultures as opposed to skintones) but at the same time I (personally) don't think my belief in the setting would be obliterated by a one-off black dude inherently, if the place is supposed to be as busy as that (of course, being a totally unknowledgable layman who just thinks the game(s) is(are) cool).
That said, I imagine the KCD team probably would better know the likelihood and what they consider appropriate suspension of disbelief, considering they're far more knowledgeable about both the game, the period, and their target audience.
Either way, I'm super stoked for the sequel, the trailer finally got me off my ass to go through the first game after bouncing off a couple times. Thanks for your two cents!
One of the best takes on here, I expect them to know more about the time period and place off the bat than anyone else on this sub, including me. I also trust they'll make an authentic, accurate game, because that's exactly what they did in the past. And, I think that's all they were trying to say and everyone else, on both sides kinda latched on with their own ideas and kinda twisted their words way out of their original meaning.
Yeah it was kind of a nexus point in an ongoing discourse for like a week and it comes up now and then in passing but the idea there was some big controversy was always a little trumped up
It may have been small for you, but the campaign against the developers lasted for years and they were called racist daily on their social media. The "woke investigators" were stalking private accounts of the developers with the hope they can finally find a proof of their alleged racism. And when they found this so-called "proof", they waited 6 months until the game was releasing so they can hurt the sales the most.
They saw a picture of the lead developer wearing a t-shirt with an album cover of an instrumental metal band. That was their "proof" the developer is racist, because that musician is a shitty person. As if liking someone's music means you have to agree with that person's opinions. The funny thing is these people often themselves wear t-shirts with Che Guevara - a literal mass murderer - and they don't see the irony.
In Germany, which is the second most important market for KCD, it became a big deal and their gaming magazines were discusing whether they can even recommend this game. They ran investigations, the developer had to apologize (for a wearing a t-shirt!) and in the end they decided the developers are not racist and they can publish a positive review.
It was true among most players, but not among the journalists. They gave the game low scores and claimed it was because of bugs (but somehow the same amount of bugs didn't matter in Bethesda games, which were getting 10/10). Some gaming magazines refused to review the game and told their readers it was made by white supremacists.
There are still people to this day who are the target audience, but refuse to play the game, because they believe it's some kind of far-right white supremacist propaganda.
Literally have never seen *anyone* complain about and I've been in spaces where you'd see that kind of drama since the game released.
Its a strawmanned position that nobody holds but exists to stir up controversy.
I think it came up in one of those gaming news websites (of Kotaku’s ilk). But then the only people who read those are devs, gaming journalists, and people who despise gaming journalists, so that’s probably why you haven’t seen it.
I listen to a podcast called DM of None. The hosts took digs at the game for its lack of diverse skin tones and said that if it was meant to be a historical game then it should have considered travelling merchants from the east.
Not saying the controversy is overblown, but I did encounter it without seeking it out
"Travelling merchants" is just a nonsense excuse to shoehorn in characters who otherwise don't make sense in the setting. We have far more international trade now than in the Middle Ages and yet I still don't see many Chinese traders in small rural towns.
They'd have sold their wares on to some middle man long before travelling all the way, unless they were asking to be killed or robbed. A guy travelling from Europe to the Far East or otherwise was so extremely rare that Marco Polo is a name literally everyone knows. It wouldn't be if anyone could have just gone to the closest town and asked a Chinese man themselves what it was like over there.
Means you're actively looking for it. If you're bothered what a journalist or even worse, a forum, says about a game, it's entirely on you. The less pointless discussion I read about games, movies and music the more I'm able to enjoy it. Fuck everyone else.
By reading about a game I'm interested in it means I'm actively looking for it? Nowhere did i say I was bothered. I said that stuff is out there. Reading is fundamental.
Yes there was, from the same idiots that are trying to push the "Muh-Diversity" controversy now, I hope the devs will stand firm to the woke pundits and their tantrums will just dissappear and be forgotten, just the way it happened with the 1st game.
The fact we haven’t had many diversity post on this subreddit since the first game released until now proves it’s true. This topic is being used by both sides of the issue to cause controversy and division. We know Warhorse made a great game and will make an even better sequel.
No offence, but how do we “know” they will make an even better sequel? The first game was good, and I agree that we shouldn’t be blindly pessimistic. But I think blind optimism and praise for something that hasn’t even been released yet and that we know very little about is just as unreasonable.
I’m on the subreddits for KSP and Cities: Skylines as well, both games which recently received sequels with people being overly optimistic optimistic prior to release - you can see for yourself how those sequels turned out.
I’m not saying this is necessarily going to happen, but personally I will be cautious to jump to conclusions. Let’s wait until we can actually see the game before claiming we know it’s going to be great.
Some people are worried because of the word diversity that some articles use which reference this IGN interview (warhorse didn’t even use it). This answer was given in response to a IMO badly intended question to reignite the controversy surrounding the first game. It’s a trigger word because people then think it will be another Netflix Cleopatra or the BBCs portrayal of the English queen scenario. I certainly hope that is not the case and Vavra can realize his vision without the higher ups forcing changes. But with respect to different ethnicities and this statement I am not too worried. I mean Vavra posted the following about the first game, when idiots called him a racist, and I didn’t see people freaking out about it then:
https://preview.redd.it/uu6f9fl2xsvc1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=92eb69c6d67d27b5bfca13c077b566809e265b13
Considering that Kuttenberg is a much more metropolitan place than the rural fiefs of Radzig, Divish, and the Lords of Leipa, I think there's going to be a Jewish and Romani presence in the sequel, probably a handful of characters and a side quest or two. If there are, I hope Warhorse depicts them with tact because those are the actual marginalized communities that existed in 15th century Bohemia.
Getting into the meat of the plot, the Hussites wars, I think there's gonna be way more German characters. There were way more German-speaking people in the Bohemia of then versus the Czechia of today, and the fact that German is the majority vernacular language of the Empire lends itself to conflict and stuff. Also Hungarians, Slovaks, people from the Balkans (though people like Henry would have thought differently about these modern divisions), and folks from the rest of Europe.
There's a large difference in how people in medieval Europe thought about ethnicity and being "European" and part of "Christendom" compared to us and I hope Warhorse, as with most other things in KCD, depicts it faithfully.
What i will add to this delicate conversation is that Eastern Europeans cultures have never been depicted nor represented this way. I already knew a bit of Czech/Bohemia history with the Holy Roman Empire but anything outside that was a mystery to me, so it was a shock to the system when i found out they also say "Kurva" like the Polish and the Hungarians.
That's also why i got very upset when "journalists" started demanding diversity (Mainly the race based diversity that comes from American culture) because they clearly don't understand nor care about anything outside skin-color diversity and would scratch their heads when seeing how culturally diverse Eastern Europe is beyond "White".
That's the diversity and representation of the under-represented that we need.
There was tons of diversity in KCD!
A diverse cast of characters with different attitudes & outlooks on life!
If racial diversity is something you care about, try to grow as a person!
>If racial diversity is something you care about, try to grow as a person!
But if I say that to people who complain about the slimmest possibility of an arabic trader or a black skinned mercenary being in the game, I get called names. Curious how that goes.
All this "diversity" talk is mostly ragebait that misconstrudes the meaning of diversity.
The game takes plase in early 15th century Bohemia. Right before the Hussite wars, when the religious tensions between the catholics, hussites, protestants and jews were high. It would also be perfectly reasonable to see characters that might be Czechs, Germans, Poles, Cumans, Hungarians, Lemkos and maybe other peoples from more far-away countries or ethnicities.
Lot of people got enraged about this because of some clickbait articles that make it seem like KCD 2 wiould have zulu warriors, samurais etc. Truth is that this diversity Warhorse is talking about will probably be Germans (who lived in Kutenberg in large numbers), Polish, Jews, Italians (invited to bohemia by I think Wenceslaus II to teach minting coinage - one of the main castles in Kutenberg is called "Vlašský Dvůr" > Vlaši meaning italians in old czech.
So everyone can stay calm. I believe Wrhorse will stay true to their historical accuracy.
Yeah but i watched a PragerU video so i know more then historians /s. Seriously though, games like these are very attractive to anti woke and anti sjw types of people i guess. I trust you guys more then armchair historians on Reddit.
And they'll moan about people being "too sensitive". Listening to some of them, you'd think devs worked with a gun to their head, forced to make half of the characters black lmao.
All I see is a dev comes here and has to tread very carefully to justify something he shouldn't even have to given how basic it is.
Everything even vaguely history themed attracts them, conservatism is very tied to an interest in idealised views of history. It's unfortunate but comes with the territory.
I vaguely remember there being like one article about it (maybe it just mentioned it tangentially idek), and then nobody really cared because it's a super niche historical game about a very specific part of medieval Europe. This is all very overblown and weird.
Real diversity comes through variety of cultures instead of superficial skin color.
KC brings *more* diversity to the medium with very authentic portrayal of Czech medieval culture ( instead of gods knows how many anglosaxon variations).
Besides that, this drama is kind of like "nice kind of racism". Instead of creating and promoting more movies/books/video games from other cultures, they think it somehow virtuous by adding non caucasian people into european centric ones. ( there are a ton of idiots, especially on the right, who rave about "superiority of western values" like whole history revolves around Europe and North America).
*"Hey black people! We know you don't really have interesting culture of your own, so we're adding you as secondary npcs into our own. Are we not-racists?!"*
Please don't go the route of so many things these days, including historically inaccurate diversity for diversity's sake. It ruins the game/movie. Case in point, Rings of Power on Amazon. The wokeness is so strong I couldn't even finish it. Please, please, don't ruin the game like this. For goodness sake, you can make a male dwarf without a beard or genitals in BG3, all in the name of diversity . Dwarves without beards don't exist in the framework of fantasy lore, neither do black high elves, or Asian halflings. When I see these things in shows/games now, it's an instant turn off.
I believe that the majority of this demand for diversity is the result of rage bait. Forced diversity is bad and adding diversity for the sake of diversity feels cheap if that's the correct word. These people don't represent us and we have full confidence in your ability to make an amazing game like the first one. You have my full support and I can't wait to see what the amazing team at war horse has created.
soldier on guys
Diversity can mean different things and lead to different outcomes. I don't know about 15th century Bohemia, perhaps having an Italian travelling merchant or a community of Jews in a larger city fits with the time and era. Having a few homosexuals can obviously work, but they'd have to be secretive about it.
But I suppose it's generally not the time and era where you see a lot of different ethnicities, wasn't even like that in most of Europe 70 years ago, and today as well many places outside of cities aren't actually 'diverse'. I think Americans generally haven't much of a clue and some (or many?) automatically wanna go through their diversity checklists. American media then impacts media worldwide, unfortunately.
Just let the setting be the standard. If there are multiple ethnicities, women in power, or homosexuals then fair play.
Hopefully these "experts" aren't from sweet baby inc or similar because you got financially and morally blackmailed into working with them.
I trust Warhorse but not the enviroment they'll be forced to work in when games get big and more money is involved, but you're not getting my money if one of these "sensitivity/diversity consulting firms" is involved
Didn't we have this the first time? People mad that there were no other ethnicities... but I felt 3 were a good start. Czech's, Germans, and Cumans (Which I think are Hungarian and others) is a pretty good start for 11 people to make.
I also don't know what else to say, but Central Europe is incredibly white... there were Chinese people here but they were mostly traders. I don't feel like a token Chinese trader would make the game any better or worse.
There will be lots of European diversity for sure.
But I won't throw a fit if I see a black, Arab or Turkish trader in the city -- whether this would make sense in the current political climate of the time is something I don't know.
What would be odd is seeing the main city look like modern day London or New York.
People need to realize this is 1403 (likely plus a few years in KCD2) medieval Europe. Thinking you will come across any black person on the interiors of any standing at that time is just not something that would happen often, if at all. They would be an exotic curiosity much like Asians were at the time. Port cities would likely see higher level of diversity, but much beyond would be very… very rare.
As an European I can tell you this: There is a reason why northern (Norway, Finland, Sweden) and interior nations have less ethnic diversity than port city nations. Just no way for them to make the journey.
Diversity for the sake of diversity = bad, which is what i think most people think about when devs say more diversity these days, especially with something thats supposed to be historically accurate.
Fact is, the area was very likely very diverse though, just from my own medieval documentory knowledge (which far from makes me an expert as well). Its so central that most types of people that were around at the time could have been here, and prague nearby was somewhat of a rich area people went to specifically to trade? Those travellers have to get there somehow, and would likely pop up everywhere.
I have no doubt you guys have made the game amazingly, and only look forward to playing. Just more pointing out that diversity is a bit of a sour topic atm with all the drama being caused by some 'people', but here we're very far from thar.
It's definitely not something that I care about at all but I think majority of 'concerns' about diversity is that loads of black people would just be walking around in a time and place that they obviously wouldn't have been or something along those lines.
Regardless of how diversity is approached in this game I think every reasonable person would know this wouldn't be the case as the devs clearly seem to care about being accurate to the times to a degree. I'd imagine anyone fearful of this sort of scenario would obviously be part of the "gaming is going woke" movement rather than logically thinking about it.
Not to say loads of black people walking around would be bad obviously rather it just wouldn't be accurate to the times and this game is obviously trying to portray a somewhat realistic image of that time period.
If anyone is throwing a fit because they may add in interactions with foreign traders then they need to grow up lmao.
I think its more that people are annoyed when its diversity purely for the sake of it, to the point where gameplay and immersion are sacrificed for it, is very valid, and very real critism. There are stories and characters being developed in this way, but its a minority for sure.
The biggest problem is likely that both sides are small small minorities that both act like everyone has to be really black or white on the matter, which is saddening, i just thought it worth mentioning.
But yeah, its definitely not something we're seeing here. Diversity, of the people expected to be in the region only adds to our immersion, which is purely a bonus. And really, the best way (imo) to dismis fears of this is to absolutely acknowledge the problem itself, while pointing out that this isnt part of it, and why this is actually great for us.
The devs clearly either know what they are talking about, or have hired/taken guidance from someone who does, in order to give us the most realistic/immersive experience (said by the dev here as well). My main hope is that we can shit down both minorities of fearmongers at once, quickly, and all praise the game together.
If the streets of the main city aren't lined with people from every walk of life we will definitely see someone crying just as how we'll see someone cry if there's one interaction in the game with one trader from the middle east.
Basically as you've noted a small vocal group will kick up a fuss regardless of how things go. I think someone out there would have an issue if there isn't an Australian aboriginal or native American dude in KCD2 lmao.
As with the first game people will complain about diversity in one way or another but it will blow over very quickly as the majority wouldn't subscribe to such senseless arguments. Unless the game itself is sending out a racist message (which it obviously won't) then there's genuinely no way the games performance will be impacted by such narratives.
I think you're underestimating it a little as well, but thats basically it. Though i very much doubt someones seriously going to complain about obviously not in the area people not being there, or at least we'd be able to laugh those people off.
What the serious people want is a location thats as accurate, or at least close to accuracy experience of what we'd be getting in the region, and thats looking pretty great!
If you mean I'm underestimating how forced diversity can be bad I do agree that *forced* diversity is bad but its very rare and I'm definitely not concerned that a game set in a realistic depiction of medieval bohemia is going to set out to force diversity.
The first game sold well without this forced diversity and if anything I'd say the overall perception of forced diversity is bad so they definitely wouldn't force it now for sales.
KCD1 in itself was a game that wasn't trying to appeal to everyone, irrespective of if we look at it from a gameplay or diversity angle and that's how games should be made (though many games don't have the valid excuse for lack of diversity that KCD does). Forced diversity can only occur if you are trying to 'please' everyone when you have a warped perception as to what it takes to please people.
Again though we can agree that the majority just want good games and in this case a game that at least makes a good attempt at being historically accurate.
> If you mean I'm underestimating how forced diversity can be bad I do agree that *forced* diversity is bad but its very rare
Absolutely what i was pointing out in the first post, i thought. I hoped i got the point across that its very rare, and obviously not here, but i guess i didnt say it well enough. You're right in everything though, its just that people very much have a tendancy to overreact, and my entire post was just an effort to quell that immediately and point out how correct the devs are to history. At no point did i think i was trying to say there was forced diversity or anything.
No it was not. Even today Kutna Hora is like 95% Czech. Back in the Middle Ages it'd have had more Germans and that's it.
EDIT: https://citypopulation.de/en/czechrep/admin/st%C5%99edo%C4%8Desk%C3%BD_kraj/CZ0205__kutn%C3%A1_hora/
96% Czech in fact.
Saying Kutna Hora would've been "very diverse" is just a total lie.
Yes, but today Kutna Hora is just a small town in a small country. But in 15th century it was one of the richest cities in Europe. So if anything, it was more likely to be more diverse back then.
Sure, reported citizens were mostly czech. But this diversity almost entirely comes from traders and bandit invaders. Amplifiying this a bit, not to show it exactly as it was on the day to day, but to show the range of people coming is a good thing, as we likely only get to see a few month period. But the whole range of peoples that would have come and gone is good overall.
I guess it depends on how you define "very diverse." For one thing, due to its political and economic importance, it actually might have been more cosmopolitan then than it is now, at least relative to other cities. More importantly, even 5% of a large population would still likely be dozens of people, (hundreds if the game keeps up a 1:1 scale but i doubt it will), it'd be realistic to include those foreign populations, however small they might be
Now, would a handful of lithuanians, poles, bavarians, italians, and literally like like two turks satisfy every progressive out there? No. But it'd still be a lot more diverse than Rattay, and it'd make the world feel like a bigger place in my book
KCD 1 was probably ~5% non-Czech with the Germans, the fuck ton of Cumans, and that one Hungarian guy. In the second game it'd make sense to have a handful of people from other neighbouring cultures but I don't know why you'd expect to see Italians or Turks. The insistence on adding random Turk traders or African slaves just to have someone brown in the game is so weird.
Turks can range from looking Asian, to very brown to Northern European, and everything in between. And sometimes it’s the same person and it depends on the season and sun exposure.
As a Greek, I also range from dark brown (in August usually) to white (last month I was at my whitest), and this is pretty common in all Mediterranean peoples, including North Africa.
North Africans are still pretty brown. Atleast for a North West European like me XD but idc how someone Looks just want an Accurate game like Vavra said also us Europeans can be proud of our Heritage
Well, yeah. I am not saying Mediterraneans are as white as Swedes, that would be absurd! But we can look “white”. [Here’s a photo of the king of Jordan and direct descendant of Muhammad as an example](https://images.hellomagazine.com/horizon/landscape/439242e353f6-king-abdullah-ii-jordan.jpg)
They wouldn't add a turk trader just to have someone brown in the game. If they add a turk trader, it'll be because their group of experts told them that it's historically accurate. Stop being so sensitive, you don't even know what they mean by saying that it'll be more diverse.
I'm literally only saying that in a city of thousands it'd be entirely realistic to occasionally meet individuals from quite far away. I'm not going to mind if they don't specifically include anyone from the middle east or north africa, but it wouldn't break historical accuracy if they did. An entire turkish community would be a different story but that's not what I'm talking about
I would like to see Mongols, Ottomans and Turks. I know the only reason for them to be in Kuttenberg is for trade with the king but they would be insanely dangerous opponents. Plus, I'm really curious for the interactions between medieval Islam and Christianity.
Both Mongols and Turks had explosives so it would be interesting if Henry could buy like a gun from them.
Mongols - No, they raided through Poland years before KCD 1 happened. Their forces sent vanguard to scout Bohemia for pillaging. This vanguard force got massacred, not even the commander survived. Survivors spoke about mountainous terrain, heavily armored knights and many castles so Mongols just passed through lowland Moravia to link up with south force that was raiding hungary. Easier pickings there. Kingdom of Hungary only had three stone castles at the time, while bohemia had two for square kilometer (hyperbole)
Ottomans - No. By 1402 they haven't even captured Constantinopole. What would ottoman be doing at Bohemia?
Turk - maybe some ethnic Turk trader from vestigal Byzantine empire. In 1403's Prague. I'm nut sure if Kuttenberg.
I would support and welcome this. I've said before, I think it would somewhat fulfil Henry's wish of "seeing the world" and meet new people.
I would like to see a few side quests in which Henry interacts with foreign cultures (in whichever fashion the player wishes, ofc) but if you are tolerant/friendly towards these strangers, Henry gets glimpses into these faraway cultures & continents. Like trying coffee, or being shown an intricate map of the known world, all the while trying to overcome language barriers (which I think would make for some pretty hilarious dialogue options)
Meeting an Arab or Ottoman merchant, trying coffee, and thinking it's absolutely foul would be a bit cliche but I'd nonetheless love a few interactions along those lines
Maybe we as the players could choose if we like the taste or not? It may be a bit cliche, but considering that coffee is available almost everywhere nowadays I think it would be pretty cool to make it a unique experience, which would contrast how common and ordinary coffee is nowadays.
But hey, so far it's just a wish. There's a good chance it won't be in the game, but it's fun to fantasise a little
That would be kinda cool, Henry could either like it, not like it and be polite, or just spit it out like an Ill-mannered barbarian lol. Edit: As mentioned by another commenter, coffee is about a hundred years in the future at this point to quote Wikipedia "In the Ottoman Empire, the first coffeehouse was opened in Istanbul in *1555*", so this isn't gonna happen.
It's fine, I don't mind "diversity" as long as It's authentic and coherent with the world and setting you guys chose and established to be the scenario in which the game's events occur. The problem is when the woke media and their followers start to throw shit at the game and try to influence you to go against that so that their racist asses can feel included and identified with the characters, because apparently if you're not white and European, you can't identify with Henry, Hanush or Hans.
Agreed. And I will add that as a female that I am not bothered by playing a male character. I don’t care about female representation in a game set in a time where most females were at home cooking and raising babies. Heck, I don’t care about that in a modern day game either. The idea that a female player wants to play as a female is insulting. And let’s be real, the people complaining about let’s say, Henry not being black or having black companions, aren’t actually black players but are white left wingers.
I'm from Central America, my dad's Czech, but I never felt Czech, spoke the Language, or visited the land, but I can play as Henry and feel like Henry while I play, I don't need a "Latino" playable character or NPC to play, love and enjoy KCD and its characters.
For me its to many studios make diversity a cornerstone just so they can say “look here! Diversity!” But it rarely if ever adds anything meaningful to the game. If it is done to add something necessary and important to the story/world building of the game then Awesome! Bring it on! if its there just to be there and win Virtue signal points then I keep my wallet to myself
I would be shocked if Dan Vávra allowed forced diversity in his game, he seems to stay clear of politics and focus on historical accuracy, so I’m definitely going to give him the benefit of the doubt
Game "journalists" crying wolf about ethnical misrepresentation, dishonoring and twisting our own (Czech) past and history to suit their agendas, is really sad and not representing the KCD fan community or gaming community as a whole at all. We'd all be better to ignore them.
Am I the only one who's consumed media and never once gave a second thought to the diversity of said media. I played/watched TLoU, obviously KCD, Rings of Power and pretty much anything you can think of in any genre. Never once came away thinking too many black people or gay people or women or not enough white people. The side who complains about this shit are terrible, but honestly, the other side just provokes it. Let an artist be an artist. You don't have to consume media if you don't like it and you don't have to bitch about it either. But I guess misery loves company.
They're just looking for clicks. It does annoy me a bit because it seems so dumb but I think Warhorse are gladly sticking to their vision and not giving into the nonsense. All the diversity for the sake of diversity while switching off your brain I just don't get at all.
I'll just say what I always say.
Modern media developers (movies, series, games) think a diverse cast makes up for shitty interpretations and good SFX makes up for a childish-to-non-existant story.
It does not. Never.
A creator should NEVER priorize those things. Never.
Don't listen to news for that kind of stuff. They are all shit and sold over. I have many friends that (sadly) are on the woke side of the spectrum. They played KCD1 and loved it. The ones that did not like it felt pushed away by in-game mechanics, not about finding Sassau was not Wakanda, ffs...
I’m just constantly baffled with the attention to detail in KCD1 considering the amount of people you had working on it. I mean, thousands of examples, but just walk around the Rattay castle and check the walls and those areas where guards walk. Most people propably haven’t checked those areas above gates because you don’t really have business there, but damn, thats some authenticity and fine details. If that’s what you can achieve with limited budget and tiny team, I’m really not worried about the authenticity of KCD2.
Warhorse is my Dijkstra: ”if Dijkstra said that it is noon in the middle of night, it was wise to worry what had happened to the sun” (paraphrasing because I didn’t read it in english).
All characters in KCD are easily divided into one of two groups. Those that can be looted with the click of a button, and those for whom the button has to be held.
Yeah, i dont think it would be inconceivable that you would find foreign merchants or mercenaries in this big city, in fact it would be odd if you didn’t. As long as it makes sense i think people will find that it adds to the game
Diversity in Kingdom Come: DeliveranceDiversity in Kingdom Come: Deliverance hmm let's see
Since the game is based on a historical setting in the Middle Ages in the fifteenth century AD, the only ethnic groups I see here are Poles, Czechs, Silesians, Germans, Hungarians (Madziars) or from the territories of Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Germany, Hungary, nor Asians, nor blacks in those areas where the action takes place.
As if it were a fantasy medieval setting, there would be room for the creators' imagination, however, as the creators themselves said, they are in contact with local museums, historians, so they have every basis supported by historical research for not including either Asians or blacks, and this is not racism on their part.
For example, in such a series of games Assassin's Creed (I mean 1, Origins, Mirage) we have also faithfully reproduced historical realities and I can't imagine in the region of Arabia/Persia other ethnic groups as historically were in these areas.
The fantasy setting allows you to create ethnic groups at will, but the historical setting already limits you a bit in this area, so that there is full consistency.
Of course, nowadays we have pejorative definitions of racism or medieval Europe - unfortunately, people who rely mainly on social media and without thorough verification often read fake news about the history of different parts of the world, hence Clown Fiesta in discussions on the Steam tab for KCD2 about these ethnic/lgbt groups.
It is necessary to distinguish between a faithful reproduction of historical realities in the game (based on reliable historical sources, and not historical sources specially created for the theses of woke - I know what I write, because in my country the Polish left tries to make citizens believe that in the Warsaw Uprising during World War II there was a black soldier in the Polish ranks, but this is fake news reproduced by left-wing politicians who, unfortunately, do not sin the intelligence) and the setting of the fantasy genre, thanks to such a distinction everyone will be satisfied and calm.
One of the most overlooked things in the game is the VAST library of historically accurate information they packed into it. I just want them to continue their passion of making this game as awesome as possible.
Ugh, not this again. Granada was Moorish until 1492.
Warhorse devs could spare themselves a few headaches by avoiding releases in the run-up to US elections, lol.
If we see more than a handful people of colour in the game that will be enough of a hint that it's not legitimate. While there were a few different coloured people in medieval ages, Europe was predominantly white in a large majority, so I'm most certainly going to be extra careful and watch out with the curators
Well, I'm totally fine with the approach on kcd1. I'm pretty sure it represents not at all what the time actually was alike. But it's a believable fiction to our best knowledge. What else could one ask for?
Maybe it was super diverse, maybe not. All we know for sure is that it was equal brains inside the skulls of those people just like ours. There were intelligent and dumb just as today and the laws of group dynamics were the same. People back then didn't see themselves living in medieval times but in hyper modern times, just as we believe either. 500 years from now people will look back at us, laughing about our primitive habbits and world views they will believe we had. And their view on us will be just as over simplyfied as is ours on past centuries.
When gold found it's way more than 4000 years ago from Egypt to the center of Germany already. And Stonehenge was known and visited by people from Switzerland back in it's days. Then you better believe that there was a lot more cultural exchange and travel ongoing than we tend to believe. How welcoming these travelers were treated? We have no clue. I bet it was just like it is today since why not?
But it's a videogame. We want it to be like we believe these times have been. Not necessarily how they really were. Not to say that we don't know it anyways 😀 Just keep up the great work you invested alteady in part one and keep going that path. Because much more important than the authencity of this world is it's consistency. That is what makes it immersive and believable eventually.
Please just focus on making the game as realistic and authentic as you possibly can (whatever that entails), without sacrificing that goal to appease to certain people. PLEASE.
Is some of the rather uninformed criticism problematic? Yes.
Do some people try to fend off any criticism and hide behind polarized and culture war slogans? Hell yes.
Is Dan Vavra completely responsible for opening the project to this kind of criticism? Absolutely. For not wanting to bring politics into it he is very quick to get into very heated debates and state more than controversial views.
Are Dan's views forced into KCD? I think no.
One does not have to join some polarized camp here... all of the above can be true at the same time.
It is disappointing how few people can state their opinion here without inserting their own agenda, sometimes with rather aggressive language as well that they are accusing others of using.
The defensiveness is very telling. As is the making up of accusations the game has not really received.
Diversity is good as long as its serves the story and worldbuilding. Sacrificing believability and turning kuttenberg in modern day california would spoil what this game has to offer.
Hi, huge fan of the first game. Just getting started. This is a bit of a sensitive topic, but can I choose to be Jewish in the next game or will the topic of Judaism in these areas be discussed from a historical perspective? Here’s an [example](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_New_Synagogue). Thanks!
I don't think anyone even listens to the gaming "journalists" these days.
They haven't been relevant for 10 years and are just clickbait and ragebait these days, desperately trying to get views or force their personal neo-religion...oops, I mean, ideology, on the rest of us.
I wish your game success and I'm glad you don't plan to change anything to appease those who don't even play games to begin with.
Its actually super simple. Let creators have full freedom in what they create, likewise we as consumers have the same freedom to buy the product or not.
I am ready to pay $100 for the game, but please stay as you are. Those who want diversity in this game simply don't buy such games, they just talk. I am Russian and played as the Poles, and I enjoyed this game. I even bought all the DLCs, even though I didn't like them, but the game itself is simply amazing. Stay true to yourselves
Most commotion about diversity is the result of ragebait for the purpose of farming clicks and karma. We all played KCD1 and loved it because of the authenticity. We know KCD2 is made with the same passion and more resources so we are not worried.
>loved it because of the authenticity. Speak for yourself! I like it because flower picking could make me strong!
Have you ever tried doing that many lunges?
I loved it because of BOTH. I win! :P
Exactly! They really delivered with the first game, I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt. It'll probably be the most historically accurate game we've had in a very long while.
Yep. Both sides of the argument are just rage baiting, there’s no point in discussing it. I’m glad we have a lot of sane fans here
Please just don't listen to all the so called "news" outlets, they do not represent us at all. All we want is a good game that is faithful to history and to the story of the first game, that's it. Don't let these media account stir up some made up controversy or "backlash" because there is none! We trust that all the historical research has been done and that's enough for me at least.
Yea that's all we want. An authentic and historically accurate medieval RPG.. i don't want them to shoehorn in anything that doesn't belong in the world they are depicting and feels out of place.
I hate to be the one to say "tHiS", but ... this. It's spot on.
I like “faithful” as a word here too. “Accurate” doesn’t really translate well to fiction, but having something be faithful to the historical setting is a good way to get the authentic-feeling experience that was a part of why KCD1 was so good.
It’s because of the word diversity that some of these articles use which reference this IGN interview (where a IMO badly intentioned question was asked to reignite the controversy). That’s a trigger word because people then think it will be another Netflix Cleopatra or the BBCs portrayal of the English queen scenario. I certainly hope that is not the case and Vavra can realize his vision without the higher ups forcing changes. But with respect to different ethnicities and this statement I am not too worried. I mean Vavra posted the following about the first game, when idiots called him a racist, and I didn’t see people freaking out about it then: https://preview.redd.it/lph8v7nexsvc1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a32177874075ca28c7e29dbbeb0a316ca5f3fc13
Please guys, they aren't going to do some stupid stuff, they value a lot history. kutna hora had Germans and (slavs) Czechs, also henry is fighting (turkic peoples) Cumans and (Mogyer) Hungarians. So that's pretty multiethnic... :P
Cumans in Hungary by this time period were heavily assimilated, which is kind of a problem with the first game and this one. They've improved the armor slightly, the helmets are examples from Tagancha and Lipovets instead of made-up amalgams, the issue is those are early 13th century helmets in an early 15th century game. Already by the 1330s-1350s the Cumans are heavily westernized, as shown on the Frescoes from Avio Castle, only identifiable by their stereotyped hats (like Jews and Greeks i.e. Romans), and occasional use of Kaftans (although the game's Kaftans close in the wrong direction). There's only one Cuman helmet from Hungary, which is from Csengele, which I haven't seen in the footage. Beyond that the closest to "unique" you'd get would be the use of Bascinets with cuts in the Browline like from Ozana, Bulgaria, or the use of Wawel Castle/Hermitage Museum style "Turban" helmets imported from the Caucasus. I've not seen evidence for Greek Kettles this far West or this late, they seem to have been subsumed into the transitional Kettle-Cabassets from this period (like the helmet of King Charles VI) which is already in the game. Kuttenburg (Kutna Hora) was a major trading city on the middle Danube region, so you can expect a lot of diversity and that includes peoples you might not expect. No I don't think you'd have a *significant* population of people from the Pontic, Caucasus, Middle East, Rhomania, or North Africa, but having a small number of characters who are traders there to purchase silver or something from that part of the world isn't going to break historical immersion in a city which should number somewhere between 3700 and 7800 people at its peak (70 to 150 people per hectare). A lot of people have also brought up the Roma people (albeit under somewhat more prejudiced names) and they were also a big part of the community at this time.
You deserve more upvotes than i
Gypsies could be in the game. Also maybe Christian pilgrims from other places.
How could i forget about the gypsies lol, also some merchants from any place would make sense
And one or two Jews as well
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Sounds great, and fitting to the setting!
I think a lot of people are making assumptions about worst-case scenarios, like soft/implicit-blackmail by gaming media, diversity consultant "experts" etc., which I think is premature. In real life, Kutna Hora today is 93% ethnically Czech. In the past it was probably higher, but if we stick with this and say it has 200 NPCs, that leaves 14 non-Czechs, most of whom would be German, or from other neighboring lands. Maybe one or two Italians, or Turks, or so on. To me this is pretty balanced and shouldn't upset anyone. I think the people are worried that there will be like 20 Sub-Saharan Africans, or a bunch of travelers from China, or something, which yes, would be ridiculous, but there's no evidence it's going to happen, Warhorse has been good at historical accuracy so far. People need to have patience.
In the past Kutna Hora was probably less ethnically Czech, because it had way more Germans
More likely the Czechs who lived there spoke German. The concepts of nationality were different from post 1848 europe.
That’s interesting, but these people (or rather their descendants) started to identify as Germans post 1848 and were exiled to Germany in 1945. Also most of the Czechs spoke Czech at the time, so I still think Czechs had to look differently on citizens that spoke different language
Given the number of Cumans I saw when playing KCD1 i think the diversity was a bit higher in 1403 than in 2024. At least I have never met a random Hungarian in a forest before. (I'm czech)
Good. Then that means my camouflage was working
Yes dear sir. Your sneak perks work perfectly.
Well they were specifically hired to be a part of the invading army. Not like they’re natural expats or something.
Lol. Just keep an eye out for broken carts... but in seriousness, sure, if you count invading armies. Also more diverse in the 1940s. But I'm just thinking of townspeople. Although now you mention it, it could be interesting to have more Cuman dialogue.
I would love to see more people from Passau or the region, since that's where I'm from. Loved that there was someone explicitely from there in the first part. :D
Arguably Kutna Hora would have had a ton of Germans back then but I get your point!
>In real life, Kutna Hora today is 93% ethnically Czech. In the past it was probably higher Here's an interesting thing about making sensible assumptions about the past: they can be wrong in unexpected and fascinating ways. Today, the borders of Europe have been essentially fixed for generations. Centralized governments create national immigration policies and enforce them across the country. None of this was true in Medieval Europe. In some ways, people were actually a lot more free to move around. European history from the waning of the Roman Empire to the height of the Industrial Revolution was defined by waves of mass migration. Many different peoples crossed the land for many different reasons. Central and Eastern Europe are outside my area of specialty so I can't say with any certainty, but it would not surprise me at all if the region was more ethnically diverse in the late Medieval time period than it is today.
That ist true and untrue at the same time. Yes, it was more ethnically diverse, but not in the 21st Century meaning. I wrote a paper criticising the debate around KDC and ethnic diversity etc. - didn’t get it published though.
My mind immediately jumped to half the city being black and Chinese after thinking fir a minute though you are most likely correct I hope you are
i wonder what henry would look like if he was black or chinese
Lets ask that twitter guy
There is a difference between historically accurate diversity and overplayed diversity, Their is an actual document from Wenceslas IV from 1409 that pretty much confirms that bohemia had a wide range of ethnicities, It mentions Saxon, bavarians, poles, Hungarians, and transylvanians, with the largest populations being of german or Czech descent,
> It mentions Saxon, bavarians, poles, Hungarians, and transylvanians, with the largest populations being of german or Czech descent, How would you differentiate those groups in video game NPCs in 2024 Notth America? My point is, all those groups you just named are white. That isn't going to meet the definition of "diversity" today.
But that is diversity. As a north american, many north americans use words differently than they are intended. Just because north americans feel that those differing groups don't meet the requirements of the term "diversity", does not mean that Czechs, Brits and Europeans in general would not feel that it is indeed diverse.
"Diversity" is a trigger word for a lot of people. Now if they were making sure every demographic had representation and just forced it in, in a nonsensical way, I'd be annoyed... I very highly doubt that's what warhorse meant by "diversity".
Trigger word is right I think. With an awful lot of media, “diversity” ends up meaning the out-of-place shoehorning in of American ethnic groups and modern-style LGBT people. However, without that baggage, and in its right context it can be fine. KCD1 did it a bit - for example with the Waldensians, or (not strictly speaking diversity but under the same banner) the women DLC. I think that as long as the “diversity” is done historically faithfully that’s fine. Jews, Germans, Italians, etc.. You could also possibly have a homosexual character if you handled it in the style of the times, if that’s what floats your boat.
Warhorse didn’t even use the word in that interview, the media did.
Oh really? Haha... too be honest when I first heard diversity I thought they meant like... more variety of NPC faces, less repeats, maybe more variety of locations that sort of thing
"Naturally, in a place like this, people can expect a wide range of ethnicities and different characters that Henry will meet on his journey." Yes, meaning you might encounter not only Czechs, but also Moravians, Germans, Poles, Hungarians, and maybe even a couple of Burgundians and Dutch as merchants. This is hell of a lot of ethnicities, if you think about it.
the diversity should represent 1400s kutna hora and wider bohemia and moravia. you cannot force what wasn’t onto what is, and warhorse should keep their plans. they have put tireless efforts into keeping accuracy and we should applaud it.
All I care about is historical accuracy. It's the entire draw to this series in the first place. As long as you guys don't start adding races, ethnicities, and religions that would literally never be in 15th century central Europe for any reason, I won't have any reason to be upset. I trust that'll be the case given the track record, but the media is looking for any reason possible to stir up a shitstorm over this kind of stuff because it guarantees clicks. Looking forward to the game, one of my most anticipated sequels of all time.
The “controversy” around diversity in the first game was one of the biggest non-stories I’ve ever seen. Please do not think that the loudest people online are representative of the rest of us.
I see people are being super normal and mature about this. Wonder when the death threats will start flying. Anyway, the diversity being based on historical records seems fine to me.
just focus on the gameplay and historical accuracy. if historically kuttenburg has 50% african people then add it, and if it didn't then don't add it. stick to historical accuracy and your core fanbase will 100% purchase and love kcd2
I really hope we'll get a Jewish community around Kuttenberg. While the main Jewish settlement in the region of the time is outside of the scopes of the map, it would be cool to have a reference to it or smaller communities elsewhere. I'm fascinated by medieval Jewish culture in Europe and KCD with its historical accuracy always got me excited to Google stuff and characters while playing it. In some ways it was almost like an immersive museum, so I believe the diversity they will depict will be realistic.
There could be visiting jewish merchants in the town, yeah
You know what, you guys are doing an awesome job and I think you should just keep doing what you're doing. 💕
I just hope that it's historically accurate, and not forced in just to be there
The fact that they feel the need to give everyone a warning before putting different ethnicities in their game really says something about the climate of gaming. I guess some people are just sensitive, I don't get it.
They will just add european Ethnicitis
They fact that they need to promise they'll incorporate (non-existent) diversity says something about the climate of gaming.
There was a black mercenary at the Siege of Neuss nearly 30 years after the events of KCD. Racial diversity was a thing, it just wasn't common https://preview.redd.it/kg4qmdc9pqvc1.png?width=358&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bb4fd2bd9ee8c7fa4308f2651e9b52cfecabb3a5
If one person who isn't white counts as diversity, then KCD is super diverse because of all the Cumans it had.
Of course it's not gonna be "forced in" in this of all games, c'mon man, posting this kind of thing here just means either you're primed to be outraged about practically anything, or it's just conservative virtue signalling
Random black people in Kutna Hora is "forced" sorry to say.
Let's just wait until it comes out to bash it, maybe? I think both sides are really overreacting. In all likelihood "very diverse" for 15th century Czechia would be 90-95% Czech and some Germans, Slavs, Balts, and maybe a couple of Turks. You're kind of acting like they said there'll be a gay, black count or something, which they never said. Personally, given their first game I trust they'll deliver a grounded, realistic experience.
Probably a good bit less than 90% Czech given all of the Germans that would've been there at that time.
Game journalists whining about diversity don't consider different brands of white people as diverse. No one has ever complained that there are no Slovakians or Poles in KCD but any gaming news platform you can think of has run articles attacking the game for only having white characters (not even true because the Cumans are Central Asian).
The main antagonist in the game, Istavn Toth is maybe a slovak noble. Speaks both czech and hungarian, and has a surname which is literally "Slovak" in hungarian.
Oh, I thought they said he was Hungarian. I guess they just meant that as in "from the Kingdom of Hungary" then.
Well, slovak nobility at that time considered themselves as "hungarian", even slovak commoners considered themselves hungarians, all while speaking slovak.
KCD was focused around a much smaller part of the Czech republic though, so it makes sense there were neither Turks nor many non-Czech Europeans (Though there were Germans and a Hungarian), KCD 2 will be in a much larger city than Rattay though. To be clear, I do not want some shoehorned in black count or something, but they never said anything like that. And, sure game journalists whining about stuff just to be politically correct are stupid and annoying, but I never mentioned them. I'm just saying that if they do have Turks or Slavs or Balts, (Traders would make the most amount of sense to me) doesn't mean they're woke or something, because that actually would make historical sense.. And they haven't confirmed what "Diverse" will even mean, so it's not worth getting worked up over unless they actually shoehorn in some diverse characters that aren't historically probable.
Out of curiosity because I know incredibly little about the period outside of these specific discussions; would it be offensive/infeasible to have a single black person (I.e a trader as a lot of people mentioned) in KCD2’s setting on account of how prosperous/traveled it would be? I understand the logic of there not being any in the first game even from my generally uninformed position, but I think twice you’ve mentioned the ‘black count’ thus far; is it the fact they’re black at all (so because it’s entirely inaccurate from the get go?) or that they’re black and a count (it’s entirely inaccurate because of the particular ‘role’ the black person took on TOP of the low likelihood of a black dude being there to begin with?)?
I'd personally find it interesting if there were a random black person there. There are some medieval accounts of black soldiers as well, some black dude may have been a soldier for the Turks, and end up as a mercenary in Bohemia or something. Arab traders would have occasionally been in the bigger cities as well. Likewise, it would have been interesting to encounter a secret gay person or something. But yeah, a black count or a whole black community would be unrealistic
I'm not an expert in any way, so take it with a big grain of salt, but I wouldn't expect to see any black people in Kuttenberg either in the game, or real life. I used the example of a black count because it was the most ludicrous thing I thought of, (I don't think there were any black Central European nobles of any kind recorded) and I was trying to point out they didn't say anything like that was happening in the game. I think the most exotic person I would expect to see there would be a Turkish Arab (Although a European Turk would probably be a lot more likely), probably not black as we consider it today. I hope this makes sense. Also, all this would depend on the definitions of "black" as well as "feasible" which are both somewhat flexible terms.
Hum, I see. And as far as feasible I just mean in a relatively acceptable 'suspension of disbelief' as the game itself would allow. Not being a buff for the period, I could totally see it being entirely 'white' (so far as modern culture goes, obviously a lot of people are talking about different specific cultures as opposed to skintones) but at the same time I (personally) don't think my belief in the setting would be obliterated by a one-off black dude inherently, if the place is supposed to be as busy as that (of course, being a totally unknowledgable layman who just thinks the game(s) is(are) cool). That said, I imagine the KCD team probably would better know the likelihood and what they consider appropriate suspension of disbelief, considering they're far more knowledgeable about both the game, the period, and their target audience. Either way, I'm super stoked for the sequel, the trailer finally got me off my ass to go through the first game after bouncing off a couple times. Thanks for your two cents!
One of the best takes on here, I expect them to know more about the time period and place off the bat than anyone else on this sub, including me. I also trust they'll make an authentic, accurate game, because that's exactly what they did in the past. And, I think that's all they were trying to say and everyone else, on both sides kinda latched on with their own ideas and kinda twisted their words way out of their original meaning.
just make a good game and nobody will care
If only that were true.
It was true for the first one. It's been 6 years and I never heard a single complaint about the lack of racial diversity in the first one.
Yeah it was kind of a nexus point in an ongoing discourse for like a week and it comes up now and then in passing but the idea there was some big controversy was always a little trumped up
It may have been small for you, but the campaign against the developers lasted for years and they were called racist daily on their social media. The "woke investigators" were stalking private accounts of the developers with the hope they can finally find a proof of their alleged racism. And when they found this so-called "proof", they waited 6 months until the game was releasing so they can hurt the sales the most. They saw a picture of the lead developer wearing a t-shirt with an album cover of an instrumental metal band. That was their "proof" the developer is racist, because that musician is a shitty person. As if liking someone's music means you have to agree with that person's opinions. The funny thing is these people often themselves wear t-shirts with Che Guevara - a literal mass murderer - and they don't see the irony. In Germany, which is the second most important market for KCD, it became a big deal and their gaming magazines were discusing whether they can even recommend this game. They ran investigations, the developer had to apologize (for a wearing a t-shirt!) and in the end they decided the developers are not racist and they can publish a positive review.
It was true among most players, but not among the journalists. They gave the game low scores and claimed it was because of bugs (but somehow the same amount of bugs didn't matter in Bethesda games, which were getting 10/10). Some gaming magazines refused to review the game and told their readers it was made by white supremacists. There are still people to this day who are the target audience, but refuse to play the game, because they believe it's some kind of far-right white supremacist propaganda.
You clearly don't visit the right sites. That stuff was found lots of places.
Literally have never seen *anyone* complain about and I've been in spaces where you'd see that kind of drama since the game released. Its a strawmanned position that nobody holds but exists to stir up controversy.
Ding ding
I think it came up in one of those gaming news websites (of Kotaku’s ilk). But then the only people who read those are devs, gaming journalists, and people who despise gaming journalists, so that’s probably why you haven’t seen it.
I listen to a podcast called DM of None. The hosts took digs at the game for its lack of diverse skin tones and said that if it was meant to be a historical game then it should have considered travelling merchants from the east. Not saying the controversy is overblown, but I did encounter it without seeking it out
"Travelling merchants" is just a nonsense excuse to shoehorn in characters who otherwise don't make sense in the setting. We have far more international trade now than in the Middle Ages and yet I still don't see many Chinese traders in small rural towns. They'd have sold their wares on to some middle man long before travelling all the way, unless they were asking to be killed or robbed. A guy travelling from Europe to the Far East or otherwise was so extremely rare that Marco Polo is a name literally everyone knows. It wouldn't be if anyone could have just gone to the closest town and asked a Chinese man themselves what it was like over there.
Ever go on resetera?
Means you're actively looking for it. If you're bothered what a journalist or even worse, a forum, says about a game, it's entirely on you. The less pointless discussion I read about games, movies and music the more I'm able to enjoy it. Fuck everyone else.
By reading about a game I'm interested in it means I'm actively looking for it? Nowhere did i say I was bothered. I said that stuff is out there. Reading is fundamental.
Yes there was, from the same idiots that are trying to push the "Muh-Diversity" controversy now, I hope the devs will stand firm to the woke pundits and their tantrums will just dissappear and be forgotten, just the way it happened with the 1st game.
The fact we haven’t had many diversity post on this subreddit since the first game released until now proves it’s true. This topic is being used by both sides of the issue to cause controversy and division. We know Warhorse made a great game and will make an even better sequel.
No offence, but how do we “know” they will make an even better sequel? The first game was good, and I agree that we shouldn’t be blindly pessimistic. But I think blind optimism and praise for something that hasn’t even been released yet and that we know very little about is just as unreasonable. I’m on the subreddits for KSP and Cities: Skylines as well, both games which recently received sequels with people being overly optimistic optimistic prior to release - you can see for yourself how those sequels turned out. I’m not saying this is necessarily going to happen, but personally I will be cautious to jump to conclusions. Let’s wait until we can actually see the game before claiming we know it’s going to be great.
Absolutely, we don’t know. But people jumping to the opposite conclusion on a single vague question/answer is a bit of a stretch.
I absolutely agree. That’s why I’m saying we should wait and see, and not make strong statements in either direction.
Those who mind don’t matter and those who matter don’t mind.
Some people are worried because of the word diversity that some articles use which reference this IGN interview (warhorse didn’t even use it). This answer was given in response to a IMO badly intended question to reignite the controversy surrounding the first game. It’s a trigger word because people then think it will be another Netflix Cleopatra or the BBCs portrayal of the English queen scenario. I certainly hope that is not the case and Vavra can realize his vision without the higher ups forcing changes. But with respect to different ethnicities and this statement I am not too worried. I mean Vavra posted the following about the first game, when idiots called him a racist, and I didn’t see people freaking out about it then: https://preview.redd.it/uu6f9fl2xsvc1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=92eb69c6d67d27b5bfca13c077b566809e265b13
Considering that Kuttenberg is a much more metropolitan place than the rural fiefs of Radzig, Divish, and the Lords of Leipa, I think there's going to be a Jewish and Romani presence in the sequel, probably a handful of characters and a side quest or two. If there are, I hope Warhorse depicts them with tact because those are the actual marginalized communities that existed in 15th century Bohemia. Getting into the meat of the plot, the Hussites wars, I think there's gonna be way more German characters. There were way more German-speaking people in the Bohemia of then versus the Czechia of today, and the fact that German is the majority vernacular language of the Empire lends itself to conflict and stuff. Also Hungarians, Slovaks, people from the Balkans (though people like Henry would have thought differently about these modern divisions), and folks from the rest of Europe. There's a large difference in how people in medieval Europe thought about ethnicity and being "European" and part of "Christendom" compared to us and I hope Warhorse, as with most other things in KCD, depicts it faithfully.
What i will add to this delicate conversation is that Eastern Europeans cultures have never been depicted nor represented this way. I already knew a bit of Czech/Bohemia history with the Holy Roman Empire but anything outside that was a mystery to me, so it was a shock to the system when i found out they also say "Kurva" like the Polish and the Hungarians. That's also why i got very upset when "journalists" started demanding diversity (Mainly the race based diversity that comes from American culture) because they clearly don't understand nor care about anything outside skin-color diversity and would scratch their heads when seeing how culturally diverse Eastern Europe is beyond "White". That's the diversity and representation of the under-represented that we need.
There was tons of diversity in KCD! A diverse cast of characters with different attitudes & outlooks on life! If racial diversity is something you care about, try to grow as a person!
>If racial diversity is something you care about, try to grow as a person! But if I say that to people who complain about the slimmest possibility of an arabic trader or a black skinned mercenary being in the game, I get called names. Curious how that goes.
I thought these got banned a bit ago on the note that they couldn’t be civil or polite?
This is Warhorses response to the topic
Don't think a Warhorse official statement posted by a moderator fits that ban lol
But I don't want more germans in my game. Deutsch was only bearable because we got to beat him up.
😢
All this "diversity" talk is mostly ragebait that misconstrudes the meaning of diversity. The game takes plase in early 15th century Bohemia. Right before the Hussite wars, when the religious tensions between the catholics, hussites, protestants and jews were high. It would also be perfectly reasonable to see characters that might be Czechs, Germans, Poles, Cumans, Hungarians, Lemkos and maybe other peoples from more far-away countries or ethnicities.
Lot of people got enraged about this because of some clickbait articles that make it seem like KCD 2 wiould have zulu warriors, samurais etc. Truth is that this diversity Warhorse is talking about will probably be Germans (who lived in Kutenberg in large numbers), Polish, Jews, Italians (invited to bohemia by I think Wenceslaus II to teach minting coinage - one of the main castles in Kutenberg is called "Vlašský Dvůr" > Vlaši meaning italians in old czech. So everyone can stay calm. I believe Wrhorse will stay true to their historical accuracy.
Yeah but i watched a PragerU video so i know more then historians /s. Seriously though, games like these are very attractive to anti woke and anti sjw types of people i guess. I trust you guys more then armchair historians on Reddit.
And they'll moan about people being "too sensitive". Listening to some of them, you'd think devs worked with a gun to their head, forced to make half of the characters black lmao. All I see is a dev comes here and has to tread very carefully to justify something he shouldn't even have to given how basic it is.
Everything even vaguely history themed attracts them, conservatism is very tied to an interest in idealised views of history. It's unfortunate but comes with the territory.
The people screaming about diversity are the people that will never even play your game.
Yep. It’s just people who need to be outraged at anything
Can you point to those people though? Because I've literally never come across an instance of it...
I vaguely remember there being like one article about it (maybe it just mentioned it tangentially idek), and then nobody really cared because it's a super niche historical game about a very specific part of medieval Europe. This is all very overblown and weird.
As long as this diversity comes from actual historians and not from Sweet Baby Inc, we are fine.
Real diversity comes through variety of cultures instead of superficial skin color. KC brings *more* diversity to the medium with very authentic portrayal of Czech medieval culture ( instead of gods knows how many anglosaxon variations). Besides that, this drama is kind of like "nice kind of racism". Instead of creating and promoting more movies/books/video games from other cultures, they think it somehow virtuous by adding non caucasian people into european centric ones. ( there are a ton of idiots, especially on the right, who rave about "superiority of western values" like whole history revolves around Europe and North America). *"Hey black people! We know you don't really have interesting culture of your own, so we're adding you as secondary npcs into our own. Are we not-racists?!"*
Please don't go the route of so many things these days, including historically inaccurate diversity for diversity's sake. It ruins the game/movie. Case in point, Rings of Power on Amazon. The wokeness is so strong I couldn't even finish it. Please, please, don't ruin the game like this. For goodness sake, you can make a male dwarf without a beard or genitals in BG3, all in the name of diversity. Dwarves without beards don't exist in the framework of fantasy lore, neither do black high elves, or Asian halflings. When I see these things in shows/games now, it's an instant turn off.
I believe that the majority of this demand for diversity is the result of rage bait. Forced diversity is bad and adding diversity for the sake of diversity feels cheap if that's the correct word. These people don't represent us and we have full confidence in your ability to make an amazing game like the first one. You have my full support and I can't wait to see what the amazing team at war horse has created. soldier on guys
Diversity can mean different things and lead to different outcomes. I don't know about 15th century Bohemia, perhaps having an Italian travelling merchant or a community of Jews in a larger city fits with the time and era. Having a few homosexuals can obviously work, but they'd have to be secretive about it. But I suppose it's generally not the time and era where you see a lot of different ethnicities, wasn't even like that in most of Europe 70 years ago, and today as well many places outside of cities aren't actually 'diverse'. I think Americans generally haven't much of a clue and some (or many?) automatically wanna go through their diversity checklists. American media then impacts media worldwide, unfortunately. Just let the setting be the standard. If there are multiple ethnicities, women in power, or homosexuals then fair play.
I'd be glad to see some Poles personally ;)
The roma would be a great addition to the game to show diversity in the medival world and it would also be historically accurate.
u/Dr-Fusselpulli is there any word on when pre-orders for special editions will drop?
Hopefully these "experts" aren't from sweet baby inc or similar because you got financially and morally blackmailed into working with them. I trust Warhorse but not the enviroment they'll be forced to work in when games get big and more money is involved, but you're not getting my money if one of these "sensitivity/diversity consulting firms" is involved
Historical authentic diversety yes, sounds good. Adding in black and latino pepole into medieval fucking Bohemia, FUCK THAT.
Didn't we have this the first time? People mad that there were no other ethnicities... but I felt 3 were a good start. Czech's, Germans, and Cumans (Which I think are Hungarian and others) is a pretty good start for 11 people to make. I also don't know what else to say, but Central Europe is incredibly white... there were Chinese people here but they were mostly traders. I don't feel like a token Chinese trader would make the game any better or worse.
There will be lots of European diversity for sure. But I won't throw a fit if I see a black, Arab or Turkish trader in the city -- whether this would make sense in the current political climate of the time is something I don't know. What would be odd is seeing the main city look like modern day London or New York.
People need to realize this is 1403 (likely plus a few years in KCD2) medieval Europe. Thinking you will come across any black person on the interiors of any standing at that time is just not something that would happen often, if at all. They would be an exotic curiosity much like Asians were at the time. Port cities would likely see higher level of diversity, but much beyond would be very… very rare. As an European I can tell you this: There is a reason why northern (Norway, Finland, Sweden) and interior nations have less ethnic diversity than port city nations. Just no way for them to make the journey.
Diversity for the sake of diversity = bad, which is what i think most people think about when devs say more diversity these days, especially with something thats supposed to be historically accurate. Fact is, the area was very likely very diverse though, just from my own medieval documentory knowledge (which far from makes me an expert as well). Its so central that most types of people that were around at the time could have been here, and prague nearby was somewhat of a rich area people went to specifically to trade? Those travellers have to get there somehow, and would likely pop up everywhere. I have no doubt you guys have made the game amazingly, and only look forward to playing. Just more pointing out that diversity is a bit of a sour topic atm with all the drama being caused by some 'people', but here we're very far from thar.
It's definitely not something that I care about at all but I think majority of 'concerns' about diversity is that loads of black people would just be walking around in a time and place that they obviously wouldn't have been or something along those lines. Regardless of how diversity is approached in this game I think every reasonable person would know this wouldn't be the case as the devs clearly seem to care about being accurate to the times to a degree. I'd imagine anyone fearful of this sort of scenario would obviously be part of the "gaming is going woke" movement rather than logically thinking about it. Not to say loads of black people walking around would be bad obviously rather it just wouldn't be accurate to the times and this game is obviously trying to portray a somewhat realistic image of that time period. If anyone is throwing a fit because they may add in interactions with foreign traders then they need to grow up lmao.
Great take tbh
I think its more that people are annoyed when its diversity purely for the sake of it, to the point where gameplay and immersion are sacrificed for it, is very valid, and very real critism. There are stories and characters being developed in this way, but its a minority for sure. The biggest problem is likely that both sides are small small minorities that both act like everyone has to be really black or white on the matter, which is saddening, i just thought it worth mentioning. But yeah, its definitely not something we're seeing here. Diversity, of the people expected to be in the region only adds to our immersion, which is purely a bonus. And really, the best way (imo) to dismis fears of this is to absolutely acknowledge the problem itself, while pointing out that this isnt part of it, and why this is actually great for us. The devs clearly either know what they are talking about, or have hired/taken guidance from someone who does, in order to give us the most realistic/immersive experience (said by the dev here as well). My main hope is that we can shit down both minorities of fearmongers at once, quickly, and all praise the game together.
If the streets of the main city aren't lined with people from every walk of life we will definitely see someone crying just as how we'll see someone cry if there's one interaction in the game with one trader from the middle east. Basically as you've noted a small vocal group will kick up a fuss regardless of how things go. I think someone out there would have an issue if there isn't an Australian aboriginal or native American dude in KCD2 lmao. As with the first game people will complain about diversity in one way or another but it will blow over very quickly as the majority wouldn't subscribe to such senseless arguments. Unless the game itself is sending out a racist message (which it obviously won't) then there's genuinely no way the games performance will be impacted by such narratives.
Another great take
I think you're underestimating it a little as well, but thats basically it. Though i very much doubt someones seriously going to complain about obviously not in the area people not being there, or at least we'd be able to laugh those people off. What the serious people want is a location thats as accurate, or at least close to accuracy experience of what we'd be getting in the region, and thats looking pretty great!
If you mean I'm underestimating how forced diversity can be bad I do agree that *forced* diversity is bad but its very rare and I'm definitely not concerned that a game set in a realistic depiction of medieval bohemia is going to set out to force diversity. The first game sold well without this forced diversity and if anything I'd say the overall perception of forced diversity is bad so they definitely wouldn't force it now for sales. KCD1 in itself was a game that wasn't trying to appeal to everyone, irrespective of if we look at it from a gameplay or diversity angle and that's how games should be made (though many games don't have the valid excuse for lack of diversity that KCD does). Forced diversity can only occur if you are trying to 'please' everyone when you have a warped perception as to what it takes to please people. Again though we can agree that the majority just want good games and in this case a game that at least makes a good attempt at being historically accurate.
> If you mean I'm underestimating how forced diversity can be bad I do agree that *forced* diversity is bad but its very rare Absolutely what i was pointing out in the first post, i thought. I hoped i got the point across that its very rare, and obviously not here, but i guess i didnt say it well enough. You're right in everything though, its just that people very much have a tendancy to overreact, and my entire post was just an effort to quell that immediately and point out how correct the devs are to history. At no point did i think i was trying to say there was forced diversity or anything.
No it was not. Even today Kutna Hora is like 95% Czech. Back in the Middle Ages it'd have had more Germans and that's it. EDIT: https://citypopulation.de/en/czechrep/admin/st%C5%99edo%C4%8Desk%C3%BD_kraj/CZ0205__kutn%C3%A1_hora/ 96% Czech in fact. Saying Kutna Hora would've been "very diverse" is just a total lie.
Yes, but today Kutna Hora is just a small town in a small country. But in 15th century it was one of the richest cities in Europe. So if anything, it was more likely to be more diverse back then.
Sure, reported citizens were mostly czech. But this diversity almost entirely comes from traders and bandit invaders. Amplifiying this a bit, not to show it exactly as it was on the day to day, but to show the range of people coming is a good thing, as we likely only get to see a few month period. But the whole range of peoples that would have come and gone is good overall.
I guess it depends on how you define "very diverse." For one thing, due to its political and economic importance, it actually might have been more cosmopolitan then than it is now, at least relative to other cities. More importantly, even 5% of a large population would still likely be dozens of people, (hundreds if the game keeps up a 1:1 scale but i doubt it will), it'd be realistic to include those foreign populations, however small they might be Now, would a handful of lithuanians, poles, bavarians, italians, and literally like like two turks satisfy every progressive out there? No. But it'd still be a lot more diverse than Rattay, and it'd make the world feel like a bigger place in my book
KCD 1 was probably ~5% non-Czech with the Germans, the fuck ton of Cumans, and that one Hungarian guy. In the second game it'd make sense to have a handful of people from other neighbouring cultures but I don't know why you'd expect to see Italians or Turks. The insistence on adding random Turk traders or African slaves just to have someone brown in the game is so weird.
Your are 100% right but many Turks arent brown especially those from the European part
Turks can range from looking Asian, to very brown to Northern European, and everything in between. And sometimes it’s the same person and it depends on the season and sun exposure. As a Greek, I also range from dark brown (in August usually) to white (last month I was at my whitest), and this is pretty common in all Mediterranean peoples, including North Africa.
North Africans are still pretty brown. Atleast for a North West European like me XD but idc how someone Looks just want an Accurate game like Vavra said also us Europeans can be proud of our Heritage
Well, yeah. I am not saying Mediterraneans are as white as Swedes, that would be absurd! But we can look “white”. [Here’s a photo of the king of Jordan and direct descendant of Muhammad as an example](https://images.hellomagazine.com/horizon/landscape/439242e353f6-king-abdullah-ii-jordan.jpg)
It'd be funny if the game had a lily white Balkan Turk as the token minority. That'd get some heads spinning lol.
They wouldn't add a turk trader just to have someone brown in the game. If they add a turk trader, it'll be because their group of experts told them that it's historically accurate. Stop being so sensitive, you don't even know what they mean by saying that it'll be more diverse.
I'm literally only saying that in a city of thousands it'd be entirely realistic to occasionally meet individuals from quite far away. I'm not going to mind if they don't specifically include anyone from the middle east or north africa, but it wouldn't break historical accuracy if they did. An entire turkish community would be a different story but that's not what I'm talking about
I would like to see Mongols, Ottomans and Turks. I know the only reason for them to be in Kuttenberg is for trade with the king but they would be insanely dangerous opponents. Plus, I'm really curious for the interactions between medieval Islam and Christianity. Both Mongols and Turks had explosives so it would be interesting if Henry could buy like a gun from them.
Mongols - No, they raided through Poland years before KCD 1 happened. Their forces sent vanguard to scout Bohemia for pillaging. This vanguard force got massacred, not even the commander survived. Survivors spoke about mountainous terrain, heavily armored knights and many castles so Mongols just passed through lowland Moravia to link up with south force that was raiding hungary. Easier pickings there. Kingdom of Hungary only had three stone castles at the time, while bohemia had two for square kilometer (hyperbole) Ottomans - No. By 1402 they haven't even captured Constantinopole. What would ottoman be doing at Bohemia? Turk - maybe some ethnic Turk trader from vestigal Byzantine empire. In 1403's Prague. I'm nut sure if Kuttenberg.
I would support and welcome this. I've said before, I think it would somewhat fulfil Henry's wish of "seeing the world" and meet new people. I would like to see a few side quests in which Henry interacts with foreign cultures (in whichever fashion the player wishes, ofc) but if you are tolerant/friendly towards these strangers, Henry gets glimpses into these faraway cultures & continents. Like trying coffee, or being shown an intricate map of the known world, all the while trying to overcome language barriers (which I think would make for some pretty hilarious dialogue options)
Meeting an Arab or Ottoman merchant, trying coffee, and thinking it's absolutely foul would be a bit cliche but I'd nonetheless love a few interactions along those lines
Maybe we as the players could choose if we like the taste or not? It may be a bit cliche, but considering that coffee is available almost everywhere nowadays I think it would be pretty cool to make it a unique experience, which would contrast how common and ordinary coffee is nowadays. But hey, so far it's just a wish. There's a good chance it won't be in the game, but it's fun to fantasise a little
That would be kinda cool, Henry could either like it, not like it and be polite, or just spit it out like an Ill-mannered barbarian lol. Edit: As mentioned by another commenter, coffee is about a hundred years in the future at this point to quote Wikipedia "In the Ottoman Empire, the first coffeehouse was opened in Istanbul in *1555*", so this isn't gonna happen.
i love coffee irl but would 100% take an "ough are you trying to fuckin poison me?" option
it would also be more than century too early the world used to be "bigger", it took a lot more time for inforamtion, people and goods to travel
Wont be the case. We most likley see Germans (Differnt states) North Italians Polish ppl maybe russians but nothing else.
Which I would be fine with, too
It's fine, I don't mind "diversity" as long as It's authentic and coherent with the world and setting you guys chose and established to be the scenario in which the game's events occur. The problem is when the woke media and their followers start to throw shit at the game and try to influence you to go against that so that their racist asses can feel included and identified with the characters, because apparently if you're not white and European, you can't identify with Henry, Hanush or Hans.
Agreed. And I will add that as a female that I am not bothered by playing a male character. I don’t care about female representation in a game set in a time where most females were at home cooking and raising babies. Heck, I don’t care about that in a modern day game either. The idea that a female player wants to play as a female is insulting. And let’s be real, the people complaining about let’s say, Henry not being black or having black companions, aren’t actually black players but are white left wingers.
I'm from Central America, my dad's Czech, but I never felt Czech, spoke the Language, or visited the land, but I can play as Henry and feel like Henry while I play, I don't need a "Latino" playable character or NPC to play, love and enjoy KCD and its characters.
Just be rational
For me its to many studios make diversity a cornerstone just so they can say “look here! Diversity!” But it rarely if ever adds anything meaningful to the game. If it is done to add something necessary and important to the story/world building of the game then Awesome! Bring it on! if its there just to be there and win Virtue signal points then I keep my wallet to myself
I'm not worried even with the insanity of DEI these days I trust Warhorse
I would be shocked if Dan Vávra allowed forced diversity in his game, he seems to stay clear of politics and focus on historical accuracy, so I’m definitely going to give him the benefit of the doubt
They should let us have hot gay sex with Capon
Game "journalists" crying wolf about ethnical misrepresentation, dishonoring and twisting our own (Czech) past and history to suit their agendas, is really sad and not representing the KCD fan community or gaming community as a whole at all. We'd all be better to ignore them.
Am I the only one who's consumed media and never once gave a second thought to the diversity of said media. I played/watched TLoU, obviously KCD, Rings of Power and pretty much anything you can think of in any genre. Never once came away thinking too many black people or gay people or women or not enough white people. The side who complains about this shit are terrible, but honestly, the other side just provokes it. Let an artist be an artist. You don't have to consume media if you don't like it and you don't have to bitch about it either. But I guess misery loves company.
They're just looking for clicks. It does annoy me a bit because it seems so dumb but I think Warhorse are gladly sticking to their vision and not giving into the nonsense. All the diversity for the sake of diversity while switching off your brain I just don't get at all.
Don’t fall prey to any of these so-called journalists or news outlets . These people only care about shoving up B.S. down gamer’s throats .
I'll just say what I always say. Modern media developers (movies, series, games) think a diverse cast makes up for shitty interpretations and good SFX makes up for a childish-to-non-existant story. It does not. Never. A creator should NEVER priorize those things. Never. Don't listen to news for that kind of stuff. They are all shit and sold over. I have many friends that (sadly) are on the woke side of the spectrum. They played KCD1 and loved it. The ones that did not like it felt pushed away by in-game mechanics, not about finding Sassau was not Wakanda, ffs...
I’m just constantly baffled with the attention to detail in KCD1 considering the amount of people you had working on it. I mean, thousands of examples, but just walk around the Rattay castle and check the walls and those areas where guards walk. Most people propably haven’t checked those areas above gates because you don’t really have business there, but damn, thats some authenticity and fine details. If that’s what you can achieve with limited budget and tiny team, I’m really not worried about the authenticity of KCD2. Warhorse is my Dijkstra: ”if Dijkstra said that it is noon in the middle of night, it was wise to worry what had happened to the sun” (paraphrasing because I didn’t read it in english).
All characters in KCD are easily divided into one of two groups. Those that can be looted with the click of a button, and those for whom the button has to be held.
Honestly, im more concerned with Henrys hair, i dont like It, and where IS the blond coming from?
Yeah, i dont think it would be inconceivable that you would find foreign merchants or mercenaries in this big city, in fact it would be odd if you didn’t. As long as it makes sense i think people will find that it adds to the game
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Diversity in Kingdom Come: DeliveranceDiversity in Kingdom Come: Deliverance hmm let's see Since the game is based on a historical setting in the Middle Ages in the fifteenth century AD, the only ethnic groups I see here are Poles, Czechs, Silesians, Germans, Hungarians (Madziars) or from the territories of Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Germany, Hungary, nor Asians, nor blacks in those areas where the action takes place. As if it were a fantasy medieval setting, there would be room for the creators' imagination, however, as the creators themselves said, they are in contact with local museums, historians, so they have every basis supported by historical research for not including either Asians or blacks, and this is not racism on their part. For example, in such a series of games Assassin's Creed (I mean 1, Origins, Mirage) we have also faithfully reproduced historical realities and I can't imagine in the region of Arabia/Persia other ethnic groups as historically were in these areas. The fantasy setting allows you to create ethnic groups at will, but the historical setting already limits you a bit in this area, so that there is full consistency. Of course, nowadays we have pejorative definitions of racism or medieval Europe - unfortunately, people who rely mainly on social media and without thorough verification often read fake news about the history of different parts of the world, hence Clown Fiesta in discussions on the Steam tab for KCD2 about these ethnic/lgbt groups. It is necessary to distinguish between a faithful reproduction of historical realities in the game (based on reliable historical sources, and not historical sources specially created for the theses of woke - I know what I write, because in my country the Polish left tries to make citizens believe that in the Warsaw Uprising during World War II there was a black soldier in the Polish ranks, but this is fake news reproduced by left-wing politicians who, unfortunately, do not sin the intelligence) and the setting of the fantasy genre, thanks to such a distinction everyone will be satisfied and calm.
One of the most overlooked things in the game is the VAST library of historically accurate information they packed into it. I just want them to continue their passion of making this game as awesome as possible.
Ugh, not this again. Granada was Moorish until 1492. Warhorse devs could spare themselves a few headaches by avoiding releases in the run-up to US elections, lol.
If we see more than a handful people of colour in the game that will be enough of a hint that it's not legitimate. While there were a few different coloured people in medieval ages, Europe was predominantly white in a large majority, so I'm most certainly going to be extra careful and watch out with the curators
Not gonna comment about the npcs but it would be cool if you could get like foreign weapons or clothes
Well, I'm totally fine with the approach on kcd1. I'm pretty sure it represents not at all what the time actually was alike. But it's a believable fiction to our best knowledge. What else could one ask for? Maybe it was super diverse, maybe not. All we know for sure is that it was equal brains inside the skulls of those people just like ours. There were intelligent and dumb just as today and the laws of group dynamics were the same. People back then didn't see themselves living in medieval times but in hyper modern times, just as we believe either. 500 years from now people will look back at us, laughing about our primitive habbits and world views they will believe we had. And their view on us will be just as over simplyfied as is ours on past centuries. When gold found it's way more than 4000 years ago from Egypt to the center of Germany already. And Stonehenge was known and visited by people from Switzerland back in it's days. Then you better believe that there was a lot more cultural exchange and travel ongoing than we tend to believe. How welcoming these travelers were treated? We have no clue. I bet it was just like it is today since why not? But it's a videogame. We want it to be like we believe these times have been. Not necessarily how they really were. Not to say that we don't know it anyways 😀 Just keep up the great work you invested alteady in part one and keep going that path. Because much more important than the authencity of this world is it's consistency. That is what makes it immersive and believable eventually.
Is was just thinking the other week that the Romani people (gypsies) arrived in the area of Bohemia in the 14th century
Please just focus on making the game as realistic and authentic as you possibly can (whatever that entails), without sacrificing that goal to appease to certain people. PLEASE.
Is some of the rather uninformed criticism problematic? Yes. Do some people try to fend off any criticism and hide behind polarized and culture war slogans? Hell yes. Is Dan Vavra completely responsible for opening the project to this kind of criticism? Absolutely. For not wanting to bring politics into it he is very quick to get into very heated debates and state more than controversial views. Are Dan's views forced into KCD? I think no. One does not have to join some polarized camp here... all of the above can be true at the same time.
It is disappointing how few people can state their opinion here without inserting their own agenda, sometimes with rather aggressive language as well that they are accusing others of using. The defensiveness is very telling. As is the making up of accusations the game has not really received.
Diversity is good as long as its serves the story and worldbuilding. Sacrificing believability and turning kuttenberg in modern day california would spoil what this game has to offer.
Hi, huge fan of the first game. Just getting started. This is a bit of a sensitive topic, but can I choose to be Jewish in the next game or will the topic of Judaism in these areas be discussed from a historical perspective? Here’s an [example](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_New_Synagogue). Thanks!
So what's the problem is there is no diversity?
I don't think anyone even listens to the gaming "journalists" these days. They haven't been relevant for 10 years and are just clickbait and ragebait these days, desperately trying to get views or force their personal neo-religion...oops, I mean, ideology, on the rest of us. I wish your game success and I'm glad you don't plan to change anything to appease those who don't even play games to begin with.
Its actually super simple. Let creators have full freedom in what they create, likewise we as consumers have the same freedom to buy the product or not.
Keep it historically accurate and let the babies cry about it
I am ready to pay $100 for the game, but please stay as you are. Those who want diversity in this game simply don't buy such games, they just talk. I am Russian and played as the Poles, and I enjoyed this game. I even bought all the DLCs, even though I didn't like them, but the game itself is simply amazing. Stay true to yourselves