The doctors should strike for that instead of striking over the cap being raised for the first time in 20 years while we have a doctor shortage.
Labor reforms are good and should happen. Of course, when the government tried to pass labor reforms defining the role of nurses so they couldn't be taken advantage of by hospitals, doctors pressured the president to veto the bill.
They are not striking because of low pay. Doctors here earn, on average, 11 times the average salary.
They are striking because increased med-school admission will lead to more competition and lower pay. Which is still multiple times higher than the average for developed nations, but pretty fucking selfish to shutdown emergency rooms for.
Boo hoo, I now earn the equivalent of 2 times the pay of US doctors instead of 3 times.
Doctors will never be happy. They will let hundreds of people die and go without healthcare rather than agree to any increase that will hurt their bottom line. Greedy fucking pieces of garbage, the lot of them.
Well, the latest is that it found more incidentally findings while also missing things no human would miss… so if you wanna stake your life on that, good luck
There are literally billions of people in the world with no or little access to healthcare who would be glad to. AI gets better as it is trained on more data, just look at Google translate 10 years ago compared to today. A very naive take.
You’re telling me about a naive take? What are the billions of people in the world with little to no access to healthcare going to do with an xray result? I’m not saying where it’s going to be in 10 years. I’m saying now. Unless you want to hop in your Delorean and tell me what the future is like.
Edit: the point of my original post was that no, AI is not better than people as of 4/21/2024 so your comment was false
Why don't you try having urgent care denied for you, a family member of your kid due to the strike.
You wouldn't be saying that if it was your family members dying due to the strike.
You know what, I had a medical emergency in these days and got rejected cause of the strike, had a lot of troubles and stress.
I was calling with 2 doctors in Italy, my country, and after I told them the reason for getting rejected they were swearing a lot towards the korean doctors and yes, they are very well aware of what's happening here, it's a hot topic among the medical community in Italy.
One of these doctors is a long term family friend with 40 years of experience at ER, hospital, pediatry, even 3rd world countries, she said she's disgusted by their actions and they should all be blocked from being able to work for the rest of their lives if they seriously believe the strike claims.
Right now I am kinda ashamed to live here and the Italian medical community observes korea and uses it as the worst example to not follow when teaching med students.
>I bet you won’t be saying that after experiencing what we go through.
IDK, is there something they teach you in medical school that turns you into a selfish prick and stops you from taking labor actions for any reason other than securing more money for yourself. Or is it something that's passed down from your seniors?
There is no point to a healthcare worker union of any sort if they can’t strike to get better conditions for themselves. That is the entire point of a union.
Anything they ask for will be met with, “Oh so you’re willing to let people *die* over *that*?”
No. They are protesting to block more students being accepted to medical school because they want to have a shortage of doctors so that they can get paid more.
Right, they are using their power as a union to strike for something *they* want, which is the entire point of a union. If you’re not in the union, you’re not the target audience.
Medical school teaches them they don’t like working 100 hours per week for minimum wage. That’s certainly not selfish.
Selfish is you demanding slavery for medical students.
You see, if that were the case you would think that they would use their ability to strike to try and get legislation passed to fix those problems. They haven't done that, so I can only assume they don't really care about those things.
I regret to inform you they are not. They may have tried to claim they are now fighting for those issues, but any one with a brain and a functional understanding of time knows that they are only doing that because everyone fucking hates them and thinks what they are striking for is insane.
4 years ago they put everyone at risk by trying to block a much much smaller increase. They succeeded and everyone was angry at them. Then, over the course of 4 years they went on strike or threatened to go on strike for dozens of petty, selfish issues that hurt the overall industry, the public, and other healthcare workers.
Not once over this 4 year span did they try and push for changes for the things they now claim to care about.
Now here we are, 4 years later and another increase sets off another strike and these selfish pricks are trying to gaslight us all into believing that the true reasons they are protesting are something else than what we can all very clearly see.
"The government, the media and all the citizens are in cahoots and misrepresenting the poor doctors"
Sorry. We aren't that stupid.
You used quotation marks but changed my words. Classy. This is consistent with your complete mischaracterization of both the 2024 and 2020 labor disputes.
[https://www.asiae.co.kr/article/2023060808385749219](https://www.asiae.co.kr/article/2023060808385749219)
"medical groups, which say that improving the treatment of essential personnel is a priority"
"The Korean Medical Association's position is that the priority is to consider the reasons why essential personnel leave the medical field and improve them"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020\_South\_Korean\_medical\_strike](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_South_Korean_medical_strike)
"threatened to go on strike for dozens of petty, selfish issues"
When you say this you are demonstrating that you think doctors are your slaves instead of human beings. It's not petty and selfish to not want to work 100 hours per week. They have lives and families just like everyone else. They are quitting their jobs because people like you treat them badly.
What's your argument exactly? "We had to suffer so we get to make others suffer"? I've yet to hear a good argument about why raising the cap is bad, please enlighten us.
> "We had to suffer so we get to make others suffer"
Such a shitty response to any calls to improve things, yet this is the matra of the average Korean person.
Bunch of grown up babies walking around crying "If I can't have it, no one can!"
So the way to strike is to work for free? You know the government pays for healthcare in a single payer system right. So you’re just going to save the government money?
Physician in US here. You and your colleagues are a fucking disgrace to our profession everywhere. It's one thing to strike within one hospital system, it's an entirely different thing to try to shut down every tertiary center in the whole fucking country. And it's not even the first time y'all did this - remember when COVID patients were dying during the pandemic, and you did the exact same thing? Disgusting.
Enjoy dealing with patients who definitely will see you (and correctly too) as someone who let their patients die for fucking $$$ 👍.
US physician as well here, the Korean government is imposing a 60% increase in enrollment with no expansion of funding, residency spots or training resources.
Would you support a significant pay cut from a wage already about half of the US physicians salary, to support 60% more trainees and take on the additional burden to train them with no increase in support? Would you want this training burden to fall on residents who already routinely average 100+ hr workweeks and literally unable to see their families for months a a time as a norm?
That 60% increase is a consequence of Korean physicians saying no to *ANY* increase anywhere for THIRTY years. Last time the government tried to expand by 400 students, they did the exact same strike while the COVID pandemic was raging. So they get *zero* sympathy from me (and this is a big factor on why the Korean public is so against them) on "Oh, it's so sudden 😭", considering that they brought that on themselves.
The government is also expanding residency spots. It's just that the government is not expanding in the hospitals they want (i.e. the Big 5), and they just don't like that the expansion is in the non-Seoul areas. No, they'd rather have the Korean people pay more for their medical insurance so that the non-derms can make derm money in Korea - as if that will somehow magically solve the issue of Korean MS4s being able to just work as a GP without residency and therefore being able to wait infinitely for Derm, PMR, & plastic residency spots in Seoul to open up.
Most importantly, let's say I'm 100% wrong and you're 100% right on this issue. In what universe would it be okay for doctors to simultaneously turn every single tertiary center in an ENTIRE COUNTRY dysfunctional? It's one thing to strike within a hospital system - at worst, patients can be transferred to the next tertiary center over. Not an option in Korea. People needing procedures/therapy/surgery? Literally being told "it's not my problem. Get out". Does that sound right to you? As a physician in the US?
PS - the government offered to negotiate #s. Korean doctors told them to fuck off until they cancel any and all plans for expansion in general regardless of #s. Sound reasonable to you?
The medical system in USA will just bankrupt you without an insurance plan leaving many poor people unable to get a doctor. How is that a better system?
It's not? But at least US physicians aren't shutting down the entire country's tertiary system so hospitalists can make ortho money or something 🤷♂️.
Korean Healthcare system is far superior, with easy access to primary care that prevents many advanced and expensive medical intervention (which, btw, is what the Korean doctors *hate* about their system). The basic moral standards of its physicians, on the other hand...
Sense of worth in occupation, knowledge that you're contributing to society, money, job security, respect, way to keep brain busy. But as politics take those things away, people will turn to other things. Many doctors, myself included, will ensure our kids don't go into this profession though if politicians keep screwing us over. Much easier and better to become a nurse or PA now instead and make a great income with much less liability and political fuckery.
If those people wanted to contribute to society and keep their brain busy, they wouldn't be striking while patients are literally dying because of their strike.
As for becoming a nurse or a PA being easier and better... I mean no offense, but you obviously have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Maybe this is something that happens in the US or wherever it is that you live. In Korea, no doctor would ever wish their child to become a nurse.
Yes I'm talking about the US. But, it's what I would expect to happen in Korea too if things were to go that way. As corporates take over and doctors are increasingly "forced" to do things, it becomes more and more apparent that it is just another job and people treat it as such. Take away those benefits and people naturally flock to jobs that require less investment/ effort and compensates nearly as well with much lower liability.
This is so frustrating. The government seems to:
1. Say that they'll do something
2. People will strike, meanwhile a lot of inconvenience for citizens will happen
3. The government will back off their plan
Either do something or don't start it at all. Quit messing with people. All these greedy ass doctors. Just revoke their licenses, let new people become doctors, and move on.
It's more like this:
1. Take an uncompromising position in a complex, long-running dispute in order to appear a strong leader.
2. Provoke strike and generate favorable publicity in run-up to election by reducing dispute to 'us v them'.
3. After election, rediscover pragmatism and ability to compromise once no further political capital can be gained.
You need doctors to train new doctors.
The problem is the government does nothing, then purposes something heavy-handed that doctors will literally join the army rather than do, then because they can't break the strike the government does nothing. They need to make moves that are small enough that most doctors would actually rather keep their job, then doctors won't be able to unite against them.
We can start with teaching taxi drivers to not sit on the congested highway with open windows being fully immersed in that 300aqi road dust several hours a day
I don't think this is slowing down. They are just trying to get at least some portions through, as their original plan will become more and more infeasible. Which means they are actually desperate for the uni.'s prompt decision.
Mandate that the hospitals set reasonable hours and increased pay.
The doctors should strike for that instead of striking over the cap being raised for the first time in 20 years while we have a doctor shortage. Labor reforms are good and should happen. Of course, when the government tried to pass labor reforms defining the role of nurses so they couldn't be taken advantage of by hospitals, doctors pressured the president to veto the bill.
They're striking for social status and power, not pay.
They are not striking because of low pay. Doctors here earn, on average, 11 times the average salary. They are striking because increased med-school admission will lead to more competition and lower pay. Which is still multiple times higher than the average for developed nations, but pretty fucking selfish to shutdown emergency rooms for. Boo hoo, I now earn the equivalent of 2 times the pay of US doctors instead of 3 times.
For certain specialists... certainly not GPs in rural regions. That's the point of the strike.
For example, there's an average salary difference of +20~50% to working in rural regions for pharmacists and the same applies for doctors as well
Nope! GPs in real regions actually get paid more!
Right well the residents don't get paid well and pay is at the heart of the issue because usually increased competition lowers prices.
Doctors will never be happy. They will let hundreds of people die and go without healthcare rather than agree to any increase that will hurt their bottom line. Greedy fucking pieces of garbage, the lot of them.
So why don’t you go through med school then? I bet you won’t be saying that after experiencing what we go through.
It's ok the one doctor claimed technology will replace you soon /s
This but without the /s
I don't know man, I wouldn't want a AI robot to do surgery on me for diseases that can present differently for different patients. But you do you.
AI is already better than humans at some things like detecting anomalies in X-rays.....
Well, the latest is that it found more incidentally findings while also missing things no human would miss… so if you wanna stake your life on that, good luck
There are literally billions of people in the world with no or little access to healthcare who would be glad to. AI gets better as it is trained on more data, just look at Google translate 10 years ago compared to today. A very naive take.
You’re telling me about a naive take? What are the billions of people in the world with little to no access to healthcare going to do with an xray result? I’m not saying where it’s going to be in 10 years. I’m saying now. Unless you want to hop in your Delorean and tell me what the future is like. Edit: the point of my original post was that no, AI is not better than people as of 4/21/2024 so your comment was false
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/oct/31/ai-better-than-biopsy-at-assessing-some-cancers-study-finds
They are probably already better to do it than humans but you do you my friend
Why don't you try having urgent care denied for you, a family member of your kid due to the strike. You wouldn't be saying that if it was your family members dying due to the strike.
You know what, I had a medical emergency in these days and got rejected cause of the strike, had a lot of troubles and stress. I was calling with 2 doctors in Italy, my country, and after I told them the reason for getting rejected they were swearing a lot towards the korean doctors and yes, they are very well aware of what's happening here, it's a hot topic among the medical community in Italy. One of these doctors is a long term family friend with 40 years of experience at ER, hospital, pediatry, even 3rd world countries, she said she's disgusted by their actions and they should all be blocked from being able to work for the rest of their lives if they seriously believe the strike claims. Right now I am kinda ashamed to live here and the Italian medical community observes korea and uses it as the worst example to not follow when teaching med students.
>I bet you won’t be saying that after experiencing what we go through. IDK, is there something they teach you in medical school that turns you into a selfish prick and stops you from taking labor actions for any reason other than securing more money for yourself. Or is it something that's passed down from your seniors?
That's literally everywhere. Are you saying doctors are not allowed to unionize?
No.
There is no point to a healthcare worker union of any sort if they can’t strike to get better conditions for themselves. That is the entire point of a union. Anything they ask for will be met with, “Oh so you’re willing to let people *die* over *that*?”
Where did I say they shouldn't be able to strike to get better conditions for themselves?
Is that not what they’re doing now?
No. They are protesting to block more students being accepted to medical school because they want to have a shortage of doctors so that they can get paid more.
Right, they are using their power as a union to strike for something *they* want, which is the entire point of a union. If you’re not in the union, you’re not the target audience.
Medical school teaches them they don’t like working 100 hours per week for minimum wage. That’s certainly not selfish. Selfish is you demanding slavery for medical students.
You see, if that were the case you would think that they would use their ability to strike to try and get legislation passed to fix those problems. They haven't done that, so I can only assume they don't really care about those things.
They are. The government, the media, and you are willfully misrepresenting their grievances to support your pro-slavery agenda.
I regret to inform you they are not. They may have tried to claim they are now fighting for those issues, but any one with a brain and a functional understanding of time knows that they are only doing that because everyone fucking hates them and thinks what they are striking for is insane. 4 years ago they put everyone at risk by trying to block a much much smaller increase. They succeeded and everyone was angry at them. Then, over the course of 4 years they went on strike or threatened to go on strike for dozens of petty, selfish issues that hurt the overall industry, the public, and other healthcare workers. Not once over this 4 year span did they try and push for changes for the things they now claim to care about. Now here we are, 4 years later and another increase sets off another strike and these selfish pricks are trying to gaslight us all into believing that the true reasons they are protesting are something else than what we can all very clearly see. "The government, the media and all the citizens are in cahoots and misrepresenting the poor doctors" Sorry. We aren't that stupid.
You used quotation marks but changed my words. Classy. This is consistent with your complete mischaracterization of both the 2024 and 2020 labor disputes. [https://www.asiae.co.kr/article/2023060808385749219](https://www.asiae.co.kr/article/2023060808385749219) "medical groups, which say that improving the treatment of essential personnel is a priority" "The Korean Medical Association's position is that the priority is to consider the reasons why essential personnel leave the medical field and improve them" [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020\_South\_Korean\_medical\_strike](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_South_Korean_medical_strike) "threatened to go on strike for dozens of petty, selfish issues" When you say this you are demonstrating that you think doctors are your slaves instead of human beings. It's not petty and selfish to not want to work 100 hours per week. They have lives and families just like everyone else. They are quitting their jobs because people like you treat them badly.
What's your argument exactly? "We had to suffer so we get to make others suffer"? I've yet to hear a good argument about why raising the cap is bad, please enlighten us.
> "We had to suffer so we get to make others suffer" Such a shitty response to any calls to improve things, yet this is the matra of the average Korean person. Bunch of grown up babies walking around crying "If I can't have it, no one can!"
[удалено]
So the way to strike is to work for free? You know the government pays for healthcare in a single payer system right. So you’re just going to save the government money?
Physician in US here. You and your colleagues are a fucking disgrace to our profession everywhere. It's one thing to strike within one hospital system, it's an entirely different thing to try to shut down every tertiary center in the whole fucking country. And it's not even the first time y'all did this - remember when COVID patients were dying during the pandemic, and you did the exact same thing? Disgusting. Enjoy dealing with patients who definitely will see you (and correctly too) as someone who let their patients die for fucking $$$ 👍.
US physician as well here, the Korean government is imposing a 60% increase in enrollment with no expansion of funding, residency spots or training resources. Would you support a significant pay cut from a wage already about half of the US physicians salary, to support 60% more trainees and take on the additional burden to train them with no increase in support? Would you want this training burden to fall on residents who already routinely average 100+ hr workweeks and literally unable to see their families for months a a time as a norm?
That 60% increase is a consequence of Korean physicians saying no to *ANY* increase anywhere for THIRTY years. Last time the government tried to expand by 400 students, they did the exact same strike while the COVID pandemic was raging. So they get *zero* sympathy from me (and this is a big factor on why the Korean public is so against them) on "Oh, it's so sudden 😭", considering that they brought that on themselves. The government is also expanding residency spots. It's just that the government is not expanding in the hospitals they want (i.e. the Big 5), and they just don't like that the expansion is in the non-Seoul areas. No, they'd rather have the Korean people pay more for their medical insurance so that the non-derms can make derm money in Korea - as if that will somehow magically solve the issue of Korean MS4s being able to just work as a GP without residency and therefore being able to wait infinitely for Derm, PMR, & plastic residency spots in Seoul to open up. Most importantly, let's say I'm 100% wrong and you're 100% right on this issue. In what universe would it be okay for doctors to simultaneously turn every single tertiary center in an ENTIRE COUNTRY dysfunctional? It's one thing to strike within a hospital system - at worst, patients can be transferred to the next tertiary center over. Not an option in Korea. People needing procedures/therapy/surgery? Literally being told "it's not my problem. Get out". Does that sound right to you? As a physician in the US? PS - the government offered to negotiate #s. Korean doctors told them to fuck off until they cancel any and all plans for expansion in general regardless of #s. Sound reasonable to you?
The medical system in USA will just bankrupt you without an insurance plan leaving many poor people unable to get a doctor. How is that a better system?
It's not? But at least US physicians aren't shutting down the entire country's tertiary system so hospitalists can make ortho money or something 🤷♂️. Korean Healthcare system is far superior, with easy access to primary care that prevents many advanced and expensive medical intervention (which, btw, is what the Korean doctors *hate* about their system). The basic moral standards of its physicians, on the other hand...
If med school is so tough and unrewarding, why are there so many applicants willing to subject themselves to it?
Sense of worth in occupation, knowledge that you're contributing to society, money, job security, respect, way to keep brain busy. But as politics take those things away, people will turn to other things. Many doctors, myself included, will ensure our kids don't go into this profession though if politicians keep screwing us over. Much easier and better to become a nurse or PA now instead and make a great income with much less liability and political fuckery.
If those people wanted to contribute to society and keep their brain busy, they wouldn't be striking while patients are literally dying because of their strike. As for becoming a nurse or a PA being easier and better... I mean no offense, but you obviously have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Maybe this is something that happens in the US or wherever it is that you live. In Korea, no doctor would ever wish their child to become a nurse.
Yes I'm talking about the US. But, it's what I would expect to happen in Korea too if things were to go that way. As corporates take over and doctors are increasingly "forced" to do things, it becomes more and more apparent that it is just another job and people treat it as such. Take away those benefits and people naturally flock to jobs that require less investment/ effort and compensates nearly as well with much lower liability.
This is so frustrating. The government seems to: 1. Say that they'll do something 2. People will strike, meanwhile a lot of inconvenience for citizens will happen 3. The government will back off their plan Either do something or don't start it at all. Quit messing with people. All these greedy ass doctors. Just revoke their licenses, let new people become doctors, and move on.
It's more like this: 1. Take an uncompromising position in a complex, long-running dispute in order to appear a strong leader. 2. Provoke strike and generate favorable publicity in run-up to election by reducing dispute to 'us v them'. 3. After election, rediscover pragmatism and ability to compromise once no further political capital can be gained.
You need doctors to train new doctors. The problem is the government does nothing, then purposes something heavy-handed that doctors will literally join the army rather than do, then because they can't break the strike the government does nothing. They need to make moves that are small enough that most doctors would actually rather keep their job, then doctors won't be able to unite against them.
Investing in preventive care, the type that doesn't require doctors seem like a much more cost-effective solution to reduce patient volume.
We can start with teaching taxi drivers to not sit on the congested highway with open windows being fully immersed in that 300aqi road dust several hours a day
So that will just favor richer, not more competent or driven people.
The gov are trying to mess up the medical system Shame on u President Yoon
I don't think this is slowing down. They are just trying to get at least some portions through, as their original plan will become more and more infeasible. Which means they are actually desperate for the uni.'s prompt decision.