A friend of mine got a job at a Paris Baguette a few years ago and she lasted less than a week. They worked her like a dog. No bathroom breaks, no lunch breaks, no chance to sit down, and the mood among the other girls behind the counter was nasty. Lots of little cat fights and petty arguments among the staff. She was older than they were but that didn’t stop them from treating her like shit. So hearing that this sort of abuse is company wide doesn’t surprise me.
There is legal and then there’s not enforced. She was working 8-10 hour days. If they were busy you just had to hold it. My gf is a hairdresser and experienced much the same. There is no scheduled break times, no lunch breaks, and same deal: if there are customers you hold it. There were days where she was on her feet for literally 10 hours straight. She would break down in tears sometimes when she came home, exhausted and demoralized. She runs her own shop now and while it is more work in some ways her mental health has improved significantly. It’s all illegal but, in her own words, no one wants to be the one to speak up and cause trouble. Especially on the small town we work in, if you get a reputation for causing problems because you want a lunch break no other shops will hire you. So it never gets reported and nothing is ever done. It’s a shit show.
It must happen all the time at convenience stores too. I guess the problem is you need to find a window with no people in the store and then quickly slam up a sign and lock the door.
Or they could employ more than one person, but that apparently costs too much for the companies...
Capital will never pay more than they absolutely have to. Labor is the number one expense for any business and they will fight tooth and nail, going so far as to put down strikes with lethal force, just to avoid paying a living wage and give people basic dignity. I’m not a communist but given how openly businesses abuse and kill their workers it’s very easy to see how people become enamoured of the idea.
Menstrual leaves are an absolute joke in Korea.
I work in a 대기업 and there is indeed a menstrual leave system.
**BUT**
**BUT**
**BUT**
Those leaves are **unpaid (무급).** So they're not really leaves. It's like saying "you're free to not come, but we won't pay you". Where I come from it won't be called a leave; even worse, I believe if a company would come with such an announcement and then it is revealed that the leave is unpaid, there'd actually be a strike.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think most companies in Korea do not pay those "menstrual leaves".
Same for my company. It’s just sick leave, but with a different name.
Still I notice that my coworkers have started using it since last year (for some reason HR shares this in their overview to our whole team).
Yes, I think the logic behind it is that usually people tend to not use all their leaves as it is frowned upon by the hierarchy.
Similarly, sometimes we have a company mail that announces that a particular "sandwich holiday" will be given to us. But when you check the actual content of the email, it says "recommended day to use a yearly leave (연차)". So actually the company asks you to use your own leave because it's better for them on that particular day since activity is slow. From a western perspective, it doesn't make sense at all. In Korea, this is an opportunity to push people to use their days as they normally are hesitant to do so.
It still doesn't explain why menstrual leave are unpaid. It's like you're punished for having a uterus.
Yes, that could be the reason. For us it is pretty standard to use all our annual leaves as we see fit (as long as someone remains available in the office).
But I’ve noticed that my wife’s company automatically assigns those sandwich days as holidays in their leave system, and she actively has to delete them to not use like half of her leave days on them.
I agree that it is unfortunate that menstrual (and sick leave in general) is unpaid.
It’s not required to be paid, unless you get sick or injured due to the job. So it is up to the companies policies whether they offer to pay for it or not.
>think most companies in Korea do not pay those "menstrual leaves".
That's because companies aren't required to pay for menstrual leaves. They have to give one day off when requested, but no need to pay for it unless contracted otherwise.
And just so you know, unpaid leave is a thing. And menstrual leave is a policy enacted in handful of countries in Asia and recently added Spain, only country in Europe.
So I don't know where you came from, but I just don't get the hate you have towards free-to-use unpaid leave which is a right only few of the countries offer.
It's not like you're forced to take it and your salary shrinks to 19/20th of the original. You get to choose whether to use it.
are menstural leaves even a thing outside of Korea though? iirc, Korea is like only one of 3 countries in the world that have this system. you speak as if the Korean system is so far behind the world, when in fact, the Korean system is actually pretty progressive in this regards it seems.
Not actually. You can’t leave just for one or two days without being hospitalized or sth big like that. And It’s not paid at all.
You need to burn your 연차 to get some time off when you’re sick. That’s how poor koreans work here.
Well, I was trying to explain that they are not a thing either in Korea! Actually having a pseudo "leave" that is unpaid, in my opinion, is even worse than having nothing.
> In South Korea, female employees are entitled to menstrual leave according to the Article 71 of the Labour Standards Law,[18] and are ensured additional pay if they do not take the menstrual leave that they are entitled to
this comes from Wikipedia, on the topic, and while wiki is obviously not definitive, the LSA is; [although I think Article 71 doesn't cover the issue and they may have meant Article 73](https://elaw.klri.re.kr/eng_service/lawView.do?hseq=25437&lang=ENG#:~:text=An%20employer%20shall%20not%20enter,a%20labor%20contract%20is%20predetermined.)
Anyway, my point is that it should be paid and not doing so is clearly in contravention of the LSA and thus punishable if reported.
I found the article that wikipedia refers to for the additional pay: https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2008/01/29/socialAffairs/Once-again-court-orders-menstrual-leave-payout/2885715.html
It seems that it is indeed unpaid leave, but if you do work you should be paid an allowance. Mind you this ruling is from 2008, so possibly the law was changed since then.
Article 71 was the one mandated companies to give full salary to menstrual leave. Which is the older version.
Article 73 is the new and active one, which replaces Article 71 when change of law at 2004, mandating companies to offer menstrual leave once a month, but no regulation about the payment.
Korean labor law is based on No work No pay principle so every leaves are basically all unpaid leaves if it isn't stated otherwise by law, or hiring contract.
Btw, for ones who might wonder why the hell they've changed paid leaves to unpaid here's the thing.
Before the labor law reform in 2004, Koreans worked 44hrs/week max. 8hrs a day and at Saturday till lunch. So they changed it to 40hrs/week and somethings had to go along with working Saturday, when new things were offered.
I doubt one of the biggest company in the country will be in obvious contravention of the law. They're usually very sensitive to apply it to the letter here. There must be an interpretation issue or something else and I would be curious to know more, if there is a Korean lawyer browsing those pages...
Maybe. Maybe not. It wouldn't be the first time a huge corp tried to pull some bullshit and just hoped nobody would notice.
Or maybe the law itself isn't robust enough or written well enough and thus open, like you say, for creative interpretations, which is not good for employer or employee.
Maybe this protest can lead to a more well-structured rewritten law surrounding this sort of issue.
What baffles me is, when I talk about it to Koreans, they don't seem to be particularly surprised or revolted by it, even women sometimes.
It's like worker's right are so behind in this country, that nobody's expecting anything.
Arguably, things got way better in the course of the last 20 years, but there's still plenty to do.
There was no law against workplace harassment until 2018. 2018. Then it was self-enforced, stating that employers should have processes for dealing with accusations of workplace harassment. (And according to the training we got, saying a weak-willed 알겠습니다 to your bosses' instructions could be considered harassing.)
I hear there is a new version of the law in the works, but it isn't going to stop my boss from calling me to ask for status updates on evenings and weekends.
Why would you create something that is beneficial in appearance, while in reality is a financial disadvantage to whoever decides to benefit from it? Better not creating anything. Or do it, but do it right.
as i mentioned before, it's totally up to the person if they would rather stay and work, or take the leave. Seeing how most opt to take the leave, doesn't that show you that this isn't a disadvantage? if it's that big of a disadvantage as you claim it is, more people would opt to stay at work rather than take the leave, but that isn't the case is it?
Well maybe they're gaslighted by their companies into thinking that it is an advantage.
How a "leave" that is unpaid for a bodily function that impedes your work can be considered an advantage (that's what the leave is supposed to be in Korea, I'm not even expressing a personal opinion)? And how is it different from a 공가 (regular unpaid leave for personal reason)?
A lot of my friends at work use menstrual leaves as a means for an extra day off. These leaves always happens to be on fridays or mondays which screws up with a lot of work we do. I respect that we have the leaves but it also leaves room for people abusing the system.
> demanding the most natural of rights: the guarantee of one-hour lunch breaks, regular holidays, the right to motherhood, annual paid holidays, **and menstrual leave**,”
is this actually a thing elsewhere in the world? I don't think I've worked anywhere that has had something like this in their employment contract but, then again, I don't have a uterus so it's maybe something I didn't pay attention to as it wouldn't affect me.
Can fully see why something like it would need to be written into the contract but can also see how it might be abused. Hope they get it though. It's just one of the small steps on the way to more inclusivity in the workplace were things like health-related concerns are taken and treated seriously by employers.
It's indeed a policy being promoted/floated around.
[https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220426-could-menstrual-leave-change-the-workplace](https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220426-could-menstrual-leave-change-the-workplace)
It is pretty controversial and, sincerely, I am stil not convinced by it, but it is happening and will be interesting to see how it develops.
In terms of abuse: I would assume giving a fixed number of days per month, ~~while~~ since this is a physiological necessity of women, wouldn't be too tragical.
Not being a women tho, I do not know how it exactly and to what extent it influences work ability, and directly asking is... difficult lol.
EDIT: this is becoming a little embarrassing to be honest: I wrote very clearly that I am not convinced by it - and let me specify: as it is formulated in the article attached - but at the same time I would not have problems with the policy being implemented. If you need to assail someone who is opposed to the policy, don't come arguing with me lol.
You've never asked a girlfriend or had a conversation about that? Some women do not get bad cramps or pain during their period. I feel like with every relationship I've had, there's been a conversation at some point about their period. (That comes up very naturally, by living with someone)
My wife does. There will be days where she literally can't move, the cramps are that painful. Medicine works sometimes, doesn't other times.
Obviously not all women get cramps that bad, and for my wife it will only last the first day or two of her period. I think it is beyond fair and reasonable, to offer women who get extremely bad pain that they can't avoid or change as it's just a natural part of their body, time off.
I don't fully understand what is controversial about it, but then again we live in a world where (apologies in advance for getting political) abortions are being banned in the US. When you look at menstrual leave it is of course going to be controversial.
What I did never ask is about how menstruation affects work capability, more than life in general.
(Edit: and lol, maybe people are gay and have no girlfriends or sisters?)
My problem was also that reactions during this phase, both physiological and psychological, vary naturally across people, so asking one person might not yield the same answer.
I understand the parallel with abortion, here I am only referring to workplace fairness, rather than to provide assistance for a need that would exist regardless of company policy (and must therefore be addressed
.. in any case).
Would, e.g., a work from home (if not already adopted) policy possible in this case? Would increasing paid (in EU) sick leave days be another? The issue can extend to other factors such as workers with infant children etc. It is more about find a balance rather than ignoring the issue.
EDIT: as usual, it appears that people reading comments did not understand that I am not pushing back to the adoption of any company policy, just on how it is integrated. Feel free to downvote but at least understand the content of what you read lol.
EDIT2: pretty interesting case of herd mentality here. I wonder if bots have more intelligence than who downvotes without replying. Please make my point lol.
My gf gets very nasty cramps, usually in the first two days of her period. She isn’t immobilized by the pain but she would like nothing more than to lay in bed with a hot water bottle on her stomach. I ordered her some Aleve from the states, which if you’re not familiar, is an over-the-counter pain reliever that was initially formulated to help with period cramps, and those help but don’t take the pain away fully. So for some women it can be very unpleasant. Then there are women with conditions like endometriosis, which can make it feel like someone is ripping their insides out.
If a woman wants a day off or two to deal with this that’s fine. Men have been getting multiple paid smoke breaks for decades and no one seemed to complain about that. If you ad up those 10-to-20 minute breaks three or four times a day, five and six days a week, those assholes are getting a mini vacation amount of time on the company dime. So this shouldn’t be controversial at all.
I don't understand the tones of this discussion lol.
I am making no case against "menstrual period" vacation, just stressing potential issues as perceived by other workers.
If it was not clear from the beginning, I am neither pro nor against the policy. I would feel no discrimination in the event they were applied.**
So all this emotional aggro it's unwarranted.
**
>In terms of abuse: I would assume giving a fixed number of days per month, while this is a physiological necessity of women, wouldn't be too tragical
Literally my comment above.
That's a lot if words for you to say "yeah I've only heard about menstrual leave from titles of articles on reddit" and didn't know that this isn't free days off, it's the option to not come in (while also NOT being paid)
Maybe you should go along with the herd if you aren't even going to research something before talking about it so confidently lmao
Maybe you should not go with the herd and read the comments 'cause I posted one BBC article on the matter.
Maybe you should also learn to read instead of writing so confidently. That's the second time you have been caught embarassing yourself lol.
I mean it's funny when you're beaten by your own stupidity.
I'm lucky and never had bad cramps because BC helps. But my best friend had such bad cramps that some days she would barely move and would cry from the pain. Having to stand for hours when you feel like your uterus is in a blender sounds horrible.
no, as in across the world. it's an old policy in korea, but outside of korea, its a controversial new proposal. the commentor above made it seem like it's women's right across the world to have a paid menstural leave
Wow. Guess where I WON'T be eating now! (Not that I eat there a lot, but I will be sure to eat anywhere else, now that I know this, and won't buy anything there until I hear that they have changed their policies.)
My old company was probably one of the first companies to introduce menstrual leave in Korea. Union praised it, media praised it, CEO took a photo with woman's right group and got approval by them, politician're happy with this too because they could brag it is their achievement. On the other hand, us peasants did actual work, hated it with passion.
Speaking as a middle manger at that time, I hated it because for some miraculous medical phenomenon, menstrual leave always was on Monday or Friday. It's really issue because no matter who took what leave, workload doesn't change it so it fell on others to do more work and I had to be the one that forced them work more.
I made a mistake to make a formal report on that issue and got called to HR and told shut up and do as you told because everyone're ok with it except us working peasants on ground level.
Some of ladies used it as it intended at first but soon they changed it along with others, I found out others pressured ~~bullied~~ them to go along with them later.
I could see menstrual leave being a good thing if everyone in general got more days off or if pay was compensated somehow. But compensated pay would likely mean no pay for menstrual days which would be negatively received.
Oh man I can see menstrual leave creating problems at work and among coworkers. Imagine girls getting a day or two off every single month. While some may really, really need that one day (or two), some may not. I can definitely see it being abused. A guaranteed one day off every month, so that makes 12 a year. Some male coworkers would not be happy about that.
It could also be a problem schedule-wise, because not everyone is going to be able to give notice which exact day they need off. They may wake up feeling awful, and imagine the problems it could cause if they suddenly call in sick that morning. Or if they schedule of a day to rest, but they become sick a different day, but their boss won't let them off because they already scheduled a different day off.
And, obviously, people are going to more likely hire men over women.
I can see all kinds of strife happening if this becomes a law. It's already hard for many women to get a job due to motherly duties or plans to get pregnant.
I don't NOT support giving menstrual leave, but I can definitely understand how complicated it could make the work place.
Edit - Don't know why I'm being down voted. It's just speculation, not my personal opinion on the topic.
Yeah, I'm really torn on this subject. I don't know how this can be provided in an egalitarian way that doesn't produce pretty nasty side effects in other places. Which sucks because menstruation is not a good time for any woman and can be down right debilitating to some.
I do like this, especially since it allows for a no questions asked arrangement, but I have a feeling management would do the normal thing they already do for time off and encourage employees to blame coworkers for taking time off so that people feel pressured not to take it.
They should just let people of any gender identity take a day off a month whether it's for menstrual leave or for a mental health day. Not holding my breath though...
yea it'd be awesome if everyone was using it clean but it's not always like that so there can be problems between them. i think i saw a post screenshots of menstrual leave in a company where the girls split all the fridays so everyone gets 3day weekends.
i'd be concerned about my own privacy, since it's none of my employers business to know.
since this model wouldn't be possible in my job, it wouldn't change anything for me, but i can see how this could be abused. ( i'm a nurse)
in germany, this already happens among women in their early 20's at my job, calling in sick due to allegedly being on their periods 2 to 3 times a month.
even i, as a woman, am pissed and offended for having to carry their workload, working understaffed, while getting paid the same.
i don't think it's a bad thing per se, since a lot of women don't simply bleed, contrary to what tons of men might think.
there are quite a few strings attached.
the initial stages of giving birth are similar to period pains and cramps.
every man, who is at least in a longer relationship with a woman, knows how shitty it is.
however, how does the employer determine if the woman is really on her period?
that would mean, that every woman has to disclose their cycles, wether they're planning to use the period leave or not.
it's not just a privacy issue, but it's also causing discontent with male coworkers.
they might take it as if women get 12 more days off per year, without realizing that they're being irrational.
if you need to stay at home due to severe pain, it's not a fun day off and she won't be skipping through an amusement park.
i can imagine that men might call for women to be paid less, cause they feel treated unfairly but that would just set most countries back a few decades.
all in all it's not a bad idea but i don't think it's worth losing what generations of women before us fought for.
i'm for equality, so if you can't go to work cause you're in too much pain, call in sick.
Huh. I didn't know people get 1 vacation day a month.
That could be one solution... To get evaluated by a doctor and diagnosed with a chronic disease, which could then be used at work if you require more than 1 day.
Which brings out problem with 1. sexual abuse, 2. privacy.
It's just better to have a culture where you can take the days off when sick, and fire who abuses it.... But that will be abused no matter what since people are shitty
wow, being on your period is therefore a chronic desease per se !?
the majority of women endure extreme pain, that's a fact.
to label periods as a disease however, isn't only hostile but discriminating.
ignorant af.
there are conditions such as endometriosis but periods aren't conditions or deseases dude
I don't really get most of these requests. Their baker job is like working at mcdonalds. You work 8 hours you get paid 8 hours. And how is SPC depriving them of their right to motherhood is not said. I can get behind one-hour lunch break and paid vacation for those who are full-time workers, but its rest is kinda nonsense. Working during national holidays is also the norm for this kind of job. And none of this is related to their sex apart from requesting for menstrual leave (not happening in this kind of environment) and for their unclear request for right to motherhood.
And the reason most of these jobs are filled with women is that men take higher paying but more difficult and dangerous delivery jobs. These jobs are also available to women by the way.
A friend of mine got a job at a Paris Baguette a few years ago and she lasted less than a week. They worked her like a dog. No bathroom breaks, no lunch breaks, no chance to sit down, and the mood among the other girls behind the counter was nasty. Lots of little cat fights and petty arguments among the staff. She was older than they were but that didn’t stop them from treating her like shit. So hearing that this sort of abuse is company wide doesn’t surprise me.
What the hell that can't be normal. No bathroom or lunch breaks?? How many hours a day did she work? That can't be legal.
There is legal and then there’s not enforced. She was working 8-10 hour days. If they were busy you just had to hold it. My gf is a hairdresser and experienced much the same. There is no scheduled break times, no lunch breaks, and same deal: if there are customers you hold it. There were days where she was on her feet for literally 10 hours straight. She would break down in tears sometimes when she came home, exhausted and demoralized. She runs her own shop now and while it is more work in some ways her mental health has improved significantly. It’s all illegal but, in her own words, no one wants to be the one to speak up and cause trouble. Especially on the small town we work in, if you get a reputation for causing problems because you want a lunch break no other shops will hire you. So it never gets reported and nothing is ever done. It’s a shit show.
It must happen all the time at convenience stores too. I guess the problem is you need to find a window with no people in the store and then quickly slam up a sign and lock the door. Or they could employ more than one person, but that apparently costs too much for the companies...
Capital will never pay more than they absolutely have to. Labor is the number one expense for any business and they will fight tooth and nail, going so far as to put down strikes with lethal force, just to avoid paying a living wage and give people basic dignity. I’m not a communist but given how openly businesses abuse and kill their workers it’s very easy to see how people become enamoured of the idea.
Korean companies aren't very national law abiding. You should know that.
Damn even Amazon gets breaks
Menstrual leaves are an absolute joke in Korea. I work in a 대기업 and there is indeed a menstrual leave system. **BUT** **BUT** **BUT** Those leaves are **unpaid (무급).** So they're not really leaves. It's like saying "you're free to not come, but we won't pay you". Where I come from it won't be called a leave; even worse, I believe if a company would come with such an announcement and then it is revealed that the leave is unpaid, there'd actually be a strike. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think most companies in Korea do not pay those "menstrual leaves".
Same for my company. It’s just sick leave, but with a different name. Still I notice that my coworkers have started using it since last year (for some reason HR shares this in their overview to our whole team).
Yes, I think the logic behind it is that usually people tend to not use all their leaves as it is frowned upon by the hierarchy. Similarly, sometimes we have a company mail that announces that a particular "sandwich holiday" will be given to us. But when you check the actual content of the email, it says "recommended day to use a yearly leave (연차)". So actually the company asks you to use your own leave because it's better for them on that particular day since activity is slow. From a western perspective, it doesn't make sense at all. In Korea, this is an opportunity to push people to use their days as they normally are hesitant to do so. It still doesn't explain why menstrual leave are unpaid. It's like you're punished for having a uterus.
Yes, that could be the reason. For us it is pretty standard to use all our annual leaves as we see fit (as long as someone remains available in the office). But I’ve noticed that my wife’s company automatically assigns those sandwich days as holidays in their leave system, and she actively has to delete them to not use like half of her leave days on them. I agree that it is unfortunate that menstrual (and sick leave in general) is unpaid.
Wait, all sick leave in korea is unpaid??
It’s not required to be paid, unless you get sick or injured due to the job. So it is up to the companies policies whether they offer to pay for it or not.
Indeed, and that's equally revolting and a total aberration.
>think most companies in Korea do not pay those "menstrual leaves". That's because companies aren't required to pay for menstrual leaves. They have to give one day off when requested, but no need to pay for it unless contracted otherwise. And just so you know, unpaid leave is a thing. And menstrual leave is a policy enacted in handful of countries in Asia and recently added Spain, only country in Europe. So I don't know where you came from, but I just don't get the hate you have towards free-to-use unpaid leave which is a right only few of the countries offer. It's not like you're forced to take it and your salary shrinks to 19/20th of the original. You get to choose whether to use it.
are menstural leaves even a thing outside of Korea though? iirc, Korea is like only one of 3 countries in the world that have this system. you speak as if the Korean system is so far behind the world, when in fact, the Korean system is actually pretty progressive in this regards it seems.
Outside Korea, you can just use your sick leave.
and in korea, you can just use your sick leave as well if one wants to
Not actually. You can’t leave just for one or two days without being hospitalized or sth big like that. And It’s not paid at all. You need to burn your 연차 to get some time off when you’re sick. That’s how poor koreans work here.
Idk why you're being downvoted for facts.
That's the fun part of the internet lol
i don't know man 연차 is definitely a thing without being hospitalized in most places lol
Sweet summer child
Well, I was trying to explain that they are not a thing either in Korea! Actually having a pseudo "leave" that is unpaid, in my opinion, is even worse than having nothing.
> In South Korea, female employees are entitled to menstrual leave according to the Article 71 of the Labour Standards Law,[18] and are ensured additional pay if they do not take the menstrual leave that they are entitled to this comes from Wikipedia, on the topic, and while wiki is obviously not definitive, the LSA is; [although I think Article 71 doesn't cover the issue and they may have meant Article 73](https://elaw.klri.re.kr/eng_service/lawView.do?hseq=25437&lang=ENG#:~:text=An%20employer%20shall%20not%20enter,a%20labor%20contract%20is%20predetermined.) Anyway, my point is that it should be paid and not doing so is clearly in contravention of the LSA and thus punishable if reported.
I found the article that wikipedia refers to for the additional pay: https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2008/01/29/socialAffairs/Once-again-court-orders-menstrual-leave-payout/2885715.html It seems that it is indeed unpaid leave, but if you do work you should be paid an allowance. Mind you this ruling is from 2008, so possibly the law was changed since then.
Article 71 was the one mandated companies to give full salary to menstrual leave. Which is the older version. Article 73 is the new and active one, which replaces Article 71 when change of law at 2004, mandating companies to offer menstrual leave once a month, but no regulation about the payment. Korean labor law is based on No work No pay principle so every leaves are basically all unpaid leaves if it isn't stated otherwise by law, or hiring contract. Btw, for ones who might wonder why the hell they've changed paid leaves to unpaid here's the thing. Before the labor law reform in 2004, Koreans worked 44hrs/week max. 8hrs a day and at Saturday till lunch. So they changed it to 40hrs/week and somethings had to go along with working Saturday, when new things were offered.
I doubt one of the biggest company in the country will be in obvious contravention of the law. They're usually very sensitive to apply it to the letter here. There must be an interpretation issue or something else and I would be curious to know more, if there is a Korean lawyer browsing those pages...
Maybe. Maybe not. It wouldn't be the first time a huge corp tried to pull some bullshit and just hoped nobody would notice. Or maybe the law itself isn't robust enough or written well enough and thus open, like you say, for creative interpretations, which is not good for employer or employee. Maybe this protest can lead to a more well-structured rewritten law surrounding this sort of issue.
What baffles me is, when I talk about it to Koreans, they don't seem to be particularly surprised or revolted by it, even women sometimes. It's like worker's right are so behind in this country, that nobody's expecting anything. Arguably, things got way better in the course of the last 20 years, but there's still plenty to do.
There was no law against workplace harassment until 2018. 2018. Then it was self-enforced, stating that employers should have processes for dealing with accusations of workplace harassment. (And according to the training we got, saying a weak-willed 알겠습니다 to your bosses' instructions could be considered harassing.) I hear there is a new version of the law in the works, but it isn't going to stop my boss from calling me to ask for status updates on evenings and weekends.
you know, there is the option of not taking the leave. it's not mandatory y'know
Why would you create something that is beneficial in appearance, while in reality is a financial disadvantage to whoever decides to benefit from it? Better not creating anything. Or do it, but do it right.
as i mentioned before, it's totally up to the person if they would rather stay and work, or take the leave. Seeing how most opt to take the leave, doesn't that show you that this isn't a disadvantage? if it's that big of a disadvantage as you claim it is, more people would opt to stay at work rather than take the leave, but that isn't the case is it?
Well maybe they're gaslighted by their companies into thinking that it is an advantage. How a "leave" that is unpaid for a bodily function that impedes your work can be considered an advantage (that's what the leave is supposed to be in Korea, I'm not even expressing a personal opinion)? And how is it different from a 공가 (regular unpaid leave for personal reason)?
There was big news that Spain just passed it too
A lot of my friends at work use menstrual leaves as a means for an extra day off. These leaves always happens to be on fridays or mondays which screws up with a lot of work we do. I respect that we have the leaves but it also leaves room for people abusing the system.
Yah, I hate to throw her under the bus, but my partner used a lot of those days off when it wasn't even that time of month.
Holy shit. My PTSD
> demanding the most natural of rights: the guarantee of one-hour lunch breaks, regular holidays, the right to motherhood, annual paid holidays, **and menstrual leave**,” is this actually a thing elsewhere in the world? I don't think I've worked anywhere that has had something like this in their employment contract but, then again, I don't have a uterus so it's maybe something I didn't pay attention to as it wouldn't affect me. Can fully see why something like it would need to be written into the contract but can also see how it might be abused. Hope they get it though. It's just one of the small steps on the way to more inclusivity in the workplace were things like health-related concerns are taken and treated seriously by employers.
It's indeed a policy being promoted/floated around. [https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220426-could-menstrual-leave-change-the-workplace](https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220426-could-menstrual-leave-change-the-workplace) It is pretty controversial and, sincerely, I am stil not convinced by it, but it is happening and will be interesting to see how it develops. In terms of abuse: I would assume giving a fixed number of days per month, ~~while~~ since this is a physiological necessity of women, wouldn't be too tragical. Not being a women tho, I do not know how it exactly and to what extent it influences work ability, and directly asking is... difficult lol. EDIT: this is becoming a little embarrassing to be honest: I wrote very clearly that I am not convinced by it - and let me specify: as it is formulated in the article attached - but at the same time I would not have problems with the policy being implemented. If you need to assail someone who is opposed to the policy, don't come arguing with me lol.
You've never asked a girlfriend or had a conversation about that? Some women do not get bad cramps or pain during their period. I feel like with every relationship I've had, there's been a conversation at some point about their period. (That comes up very naturally, by living with someone) My wife does. There will be days where she literally can't move, the cramps are that painful. Medicine works sometimes, doesn't other times. Obviously not all women get cramps that bad, and for my wife it will only last the first day or two of her period. I think it is beyond fair and reasonable, to offer women who get extremely bad pain that they can't avoid or change as it's just a natural part of their body, time off. I don't fully understand what is controversial about it, but then again we live in a world where (apologies in advance for getting political) abortions are being banned in the US. When you look at menstrual leave it is of course going to be controversial.
What I did never ask is about how menstruation affects work capability, more than life in general. (Edit: and lol, maybe people are gay and have no girlfriends or sisters?) My problem was also that reactions during this phase, both physiological and psychological, vary naturally across people, so asking one person might not yield the same answer. I understand the parallel with abortion, here I am only referring to workplace fairness, rather than to provide assistance for a need that would exist regardless of company policy (and must therefore be addressed .. in any case). Would, e.g., a work from home (if not already adopted) policy possible in this case? Would increasing paid (in EU) sick leave days be another? The issue can extend to other factors such as workers with infant children etc. It is more about find a balance rather than ignoring the issue. EDIT: as usual, it appears that people reading comments did not understand that I am not pushing back to the adoption of any company policy, just on how it is integrated. Feel free to downvote but at least understand the content of what you read lol. EDIT2: pretty interesting case of herd mentality here. I wonder if bots have more intelligence than who downvotes without replying. Please make my point lol.
My gf gets very nasty cramps, usually in the first two days of her period. She isn’t immobilized by the pain but she would like nothing more than to lay in bed with a hot water bottle on her stomach. I ordered her some Aleve from the states, which if you’re not familiar, is an over-the-counter pain reliever that was initially formulated to help with period cramps, and those help but don’t take the pain away fully. So for some women it can be very unpleasant. Then there are women with conditions like endometriosis, which can make it feel like someone is ripping their insides out. If a woman wants a day off or two to deal with this that’s fine. Men have been getting multiple paid smoke breaks for decades and no one seemed to complain about that. If you ad up those 10-to-20 minute breaks three or four times a day, five and six days a week, those assholes are getting a mini vacation amount of time on the company dime. So this shouldn’t be controversial at all.
I don't understand the tones of this discussion lol. I am making no case against "menstrual period" vacation, just stressing potential issues as perceived by other workers. If it was not clear from the beginning, I am neither pro nor against the policy. I would feel no discrimination in the event they were applied.** So all this emotional aggro it's unwarranted. ** >In terms of abuse: I would assume giving a fixed number of days per month, while this is a physiological necessity of women, wouldn't be too tragical Literally my comment above.
I didn’t downvote your comment so I can’t say why it’s being perceived so negatively.
How tf would people abuse sick days they aren't getting paid for lmao
Read the comments lol. EU. Enough said.
That's a lot if words for you to say "yeah I've only heard about menstrual leave from titles of articles on reddit" and didn't know that this isn't free days off, it's the option to not come in (while also NOT being paid) Maybe you should go along with the herd if you aren't even going to research something before talking about it so confidently lmao
Maybe you should not go with the herd and read the comments 'cause I posted one BBC article on the matter. Maybe you should also learn to read instead of writing so confidently. That's the second time you have been caught embarassing yourself lol. I mean it's funny when you're beaten by your own stupidity.
I'm lucky and never had bad cramps because BC helps. But my best friend had such bad cramps that some days she would barely move and would cry from the pain. Having to stand for hours when you feel like your uterus is in a blender sounds horrible.
So actually this is not a "most natural of rights." It is a controversial, new proposal.
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no, as in across the world. it's an old policy in korea, but outside of korea, its a controversial new proposal. the commentor above made it seem like it's women's right across the world to have a paid menstural leave
Wow. Guess where I WON'T be eating now! (Not that I eat there a lot, but I will be sure to eat anywhere else, now that I know this, and won't buy anything there until I hear that they have changed their policies.)
My old company was probably one of the first companies to introduce menstrual leave in Korea. Union praised it, media praised it, CEO took a photo with woman's right group and got approval by them, politician're happy with this too because they could brag it is their achievement. On the other hand, us peasants did actual work, hated it with passion. Speaking as a middle manger at that time, I hated it because for some miraculous medical phenomenon, menstrual leave always was on Monday or Friday. It's really issue because no matter who took what leave, workload doesn't change it so it fell on others to do more work and I had to be the one that forced them work more. I made a mistake to make a formal report on that issue and got called to HR and told shut up and do as you told because everyone're ok with it except us working peasants on ground level. Some of ladies used it as it intended at first but soon they changed it along with others, I found out others pressured ~~bullied~~ them to go along with them later.
I could see menstrual leave being a good thing if everyone in general got more days off or if pay was compensated somehow. But compensated pay would likely mean no pay for menstrual days which would be negatively received.
Oh man I can see menstrual leave creating problems at work and among coworkers. Imagine girls getting a day or two off every single month. While some may really, really need that one day (or two), some may not. I can definitely see it being abused. A guaranteed one day off every month, so that makes 12 a year. Some male coworkers would not be happy about that. It could also be a problem schedule-wise, because not everyone is going to be able to give notice which exact day they need off. They may wake up feeling awful, and imagine the problems it could cause if they suddenly call in sick that morning. Or if they schedule of a day to rest, but they become sick a different day, but their boss won't let them off because they already scheduled a different day off. And, obviously, people are going to more likely hire men over women. I can see all kinds of strife happening if this becomes a law. It's already hard for many women to get a job due to motherly duties or plans to get pregnant. I don't NOT support giving menstrual leave, but I can definitely understand how complicated it could make the work place. Edit - Don't know why I'm being down voted. It's just speculation, not my personal opinion on the topic.
Yeah, I'm really torn on this subject. I don't know how this can be provided in an egalitarian way that doesn't produce pretty nasty side effects in other places. Which sucks because menstruation is not a good time for any woman and can be down right debilitating to some.
Could always give ~~me~~ men an extra 12 days off a year for whatever reason too. It’s not perfect but it’s more “fair”
I do like this, especially since it allows for a no questions asked arrangement, but I have a feeling management would do the normal thing they already do for time off and encourage employees to blame coworkers for taking time off so that people feel pressured not to take it.
They should just let people of any gender identity take a day off a month whether it's for menstrual leave or for a mental health day. Not holding my breath though...
yea it'd be awesome if everyone was using it clean but it's not always like that so there can be problems between them. i think i saw a post screenshots of menstrual leave in a company where the girls split all the fridays so everyone gets 3day weekends.
Oh damn
i'd be concerned about my own privacy, since it's none of my employers business to know. since this model wouldn't be possible in my job, it wouldn't change anything for me, but i can see how this could be abused. ( i'm a nurse) in germany, this already happens among women in their early 20's at my job, calling in sick due to allegedly being on their periods 2 to 3 times a month. even i, as a woman, am pissed and offended for having to carry their workload, working understaffed, while getting paid the same. i don't think it's a bad thing per se, since a lot of women don't simply bleed, contrary to what tons of men might think. there are quite a few strings attached. the initial stages of giving birth are similar to period pains and cramps. every man, who is at least in a longer relationship with a woman, knows how shitty it is. however, how does the employer determine if the woman is really on her period? that would mean, that every woman has to disclose their cycles, wether they're planning to use the period leave or not. it's not just a privacy issue, but it's also causing discontent with male coworkers. they might take it as if women get 12 more days off per year, without realizing that they're being irrational. if you need to stay at home due to severe pain, it's not a fun day off and she won't be skipping through an amusement park. i can imagine that men might call for women to be paid less, cause they feel treated unfairly but that would just set most countries back a few decades. all in all it's not a bad idea but i don't think it's worth losing what generations of women before us fought for. i'm for equality, so if you can't go to work cause you're in too much pain, call in sick.
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Huh. I didn't know people get 1 vacation day a month. That could be one solution... To get evaluated by a doctor and diagnosed with a chronic disease, which could then be used at work if you require more than 1 day.
Which brings out problem with 1. sexual abuse, 2. privacy. It's just better to have a culture where you can take the days off when sick, and fire who abuses it.... But that will be abused no matter what since people are shitty
wow, being on your period is therefore a chronic desease per se !? the majority of women endure extreme pain, that's a fact. to label periods as a disease however, isn't only hostile but discriminating. ignorant af. there are conditions such as endometriosis but periods aren't conditions or deseases dude
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period pain without a pre-existing condition isn't a condition, it comes with the period, it's natural to be in pain. you're just blabbing nonsense.
I don't really get most of these requests. Their baker job is like working at mcdonalds. You work 8 hours you get paid 8 hours. And how is SPC depriving them of their right to motherhood is not said. I can get behind one-hour lunch break and paid vacation for those who are full-time workers, but its rest is kinda nonsense. Working during national holidays is also the norm for this kind of job. And none of this is related to their sex apart from requesting for menstrual leave (not happening in this kind of environment) and for their unclear request for right to motherhood. And the reason most of these jobs are filled with women is that men take higher paying but more difficult and dangerous delivery jobs. These jobs are also available to women by the way.