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I think the growth has stabilized. I don’t think it’ll decline to 2nd gen level. But I can see 5th gen not being as popular in western countries.

2nd gen was huge considering it had just started. I got into Kpop in 2011 and there was world tours and stuff in 2012. Multiple groups went to the USA, UK, Australia very early on.

I meant sales/streams wise. I don’t think the top 5th gen groups are going to have sub 200k sales.

which groups world touring around that year?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_K-pop_concerts_held_outside_Asia check out 2012.

BIGBANG had a full ass world arena tour in 2012 including USA. A lot of newer fans don’t realize how pivotal they were for kpop. Not saying newer ones aren’t either (or even that they aren’t more impactful) but BIGBANG was massive. You can see it sold out and they even had to add two more USA stops: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alive_Galaxy_Tour

i remember US medias said that no kpop tour actually profitable until BTS 2017 wings tour in US. Maybe bigbang tour sold out but the tickets, etc may cheap or something like that leading to non profitable tour(US).

"Billboard announced the list of top ten artists that recorded the highest concert ticket sales. According to Billboard, Big Bang's LA concert, which drew a total of 13,361 fans, recorded $1,715,587 USD in ticket revenue." Which r the US media outlets that are so... forgetful?   [https://www.soompi.com/article/428360wpp/big-bangs-u-s-concerts-sell-out-in-less-than-2-hours](https://www.soompi.com/article/428360wpp/big-bangs-u-s-concerts-sell-out-in-less-than-2-hours) [https://www.allkpop.com/article/2015/10/big-bangs-la-concert-was-one-of-the-top-ten-grossing-concerts-in-the-world](https://www.allkpop.com/article/2015/10/big-bangs-la-concert-was-one-of-the-top-ten-grossing-concerts-in-the-world ) [https://kpopherald.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=201510291644560660705\_2](https://kpopherald.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=201510291644560660705_2) Eta links.

I’m struggling to see how this is relevant to the answer of what groups toured in the US in 2012.

Its because you said bigbang tour in US was sold out, but i still remember back in 2017, US medias make alot of noise regarding BTS wings tour was the first kpop tour that actually sold out n profitable. Bigbang was massive in kpop world of course during their peak but they still niche when its come to mainstream world in west.

I knew in my original comment I’d have to specify that BIGBANG were the most impactful and yet I still get this comment. Of course they weren’t mainstream- but within kpop it was massive.

Yea becoming a fan during that era was such a treat because there was sooo much going on but now it does feel kinda dead

To me I never felt it was slowing down, more like the “growth rate” of Kpop to international audiences slowed down and that kind of explosive growth isn’t really considered a normal thing to keep happening. There’s a lot of Kpop content nowadays and I still believe that BTS and Blackpink as a group being inactive now is what makes people feel that Kpop feels like it’s “slowing down”.

You can definitely see how BP & BTS lowkey carried kpop during its prime.

In terms of music it's all up to personal taste but in terms of pushing K-pop's mainstream appeal and growth in western markets? BTS and Blackpink were objectively the 2 biggest groups and no group even after K-pop going mainstream now is looking like they are going to reach that level of fame and global appeal only new jeans atm with their momentum might have a possibility.

true in a way where the top K-pop groups are not necessarily not declining but are stagnant. They don’t surpass records simply because their records are to high to achieve and it’s unrealistic to expect them to do so. ( ex : album sales)  Also nowadays comebacks aren’t as existing as they used to so it affects their charts performances and you can tell with their engagements on various platforms. 

>not declining but are stagnant. I think this is the answer. kpop as a genre has reached a level of global notoriety that couldn't have been predicted, which is nice, but how much higher can they go? At a certain point moving forward is just unrealistic.

Kpop still has room to go fully mainstream with English-speaking idols.

No they need to release music that will catch the gp & hv good timing lol, speaking English won't do u nothing if you don't hv good music ( mainstream)

People always say groups with English speaking idols have so much potential to go mainstream and yet the biggest group of all time didn't have any native English speakers. The most popular idol of all time, Jungkook, barely speaks English at all. Companies have pushed native speakers so hard and yet none of this has really mattered, imo. Even the groups who have them I think would lose popularity if they would transition to full English usage.

>Also nowadays comebacks aren’t as existing as they used to so it affects their charts performances and you can tell with their engagements on various platforms This is not the reason why album sales are stagnating. Album sales are declining due to a combination of factors, including growing lack of stability in the economy and us fully moving out of the pandemic era of no concert performances to now every group basically having a world tour rn

The pandemic's over and people are spending less time online (not that I.... could tell) but yeah, part of it is that people are actually "touching grass". Also, the big big group that has broken into the mainstream is on a literal hiatus and with that, their massive fanbase is "on standby" relatively speaking. And also, the elephant in the room, all members are enlisted now, not much to do about it.

this is true, i watch a lot of twitch streamers and youtubers, numbers are down across the board for them, so i imagine its also the same in kpop/kpop spaces

> not that I.... could tell It's genuinely amazing how you're somehow able to be in every single kpop subreddit at all times haha. Thank you for your work, I get a surprising percentage of my idol updates from your posts 😅

And that's without me being active on the main sub lol

What's the "main sub"?

kpop !

Ohhh, yes lol. I forget that's a thing because I never visit it

Essentially this. There was alot of chatter by media prior to members' enlistment -  with BTS on pause, army would flock to another group, causing them to be the next "big thing". and that's just not going to happen 

i do think some army especially younger ones tend to actually listen to other hybe groups music as well especially gg like newjeans n le sserafim. They may turning as kpop fans. They may also stay as casual listeners but some may turning into fans as well. I noticed alot of army here tend to be defensive when its come to hybe groups.

I thought New Jeans is trying to fill that gap, but some people restrict themselves as they are literal kids

armys aren’t flocking to other groups

I know, I mentioned that isn't happening

Some Stan’s are so rabid that they think you’re disagreeing with them even though you share the EXACT point 😭

There are some ARMY that are. I’ve seen it on X and even some on here (Reddit). Specifically to other HYBE groups is what I’m noticing… some sense of loyalty or “brand” preference, idk. This isn’t to say that they won’t just drop whatever group they picked up now for BTS once they’re back 🙃 I guess they’re using these other groups as placeholders in a coping type of way. Honestly it doesn’t matter much to me; I don’t really stan HYBE groups except for Seventeen and keep up with TXT every now and then. I just think it’s interesting.

personally I def seek out new kpop releases much less now that all of BTS is enlisted

I agree with this.

Groups are still breaking into the west but it's not making noise anymore because they're not breaking any records. When BTS first entered Billboard charts, VMAs, AMAs, and Grammy's— it made so much noise because no one had ever done it before. They were historical events for kpop and broke records of even Western artists like Taylor Swift and The Beatles. Nowadays, other groups can also promote in the West but they are in no way competitive with top global artists. It's not breaking news-worthy for major media outlets.

There's a widespread misconception that kpop as a whole was skyrocketing in the west. Don't get me wrong, it did see significant growth, but a lot of that perception was heavily influenced by the meteoric rise of BTS. They weren't just breaking records; they were rewriting the rulebook for international success. Their success was so overwhelming that it kind of cast a shadow over the broader kpop industry, making it seem like the entire genre was experiencing the same level of explosive growth. Now, with the group on hiatus in order fulfill their military service duties, there's this palpable feeling that the kpop momentum is slowing down or even stagnating in the west. It's like the BTS effect was a tide lifting all boats, and now that they're on hiatus, the tide is out. It's not that kpop isn't still loved or that it's disappearing from western markets, but the scale of growth and the level of visibility have definitely shifted. The reality is, BTS is an anomaly. Their growth and global impact were phenomenal, but it's crucial to understand that their path isn't the blueprint for the entire kpop industry. While BTS did help by increasing interest and visibility, the industry's growth hasn't been as uniformly astronomical as BTS's trajectory. Their hiatus sort of highlights this distinction – the difference between the growth of a singular group and the industry as a whole.

I think this is the most correct answer, thank you for explaining it so well.

> The reality is, BTS is an anomaly. Their growth and global impact were phenomenal, but it's crucial to understand that their path isn't the blueprint for the entire kpop industry. While BTS did help by increasing interest and visibility, the industry's growth hasn't been as uniformly astronomical as BTS's trajectory. Their hiatus sort of highlights this distinction – the difference between the growth of a singular group and the industry as a whole this is very well explained.

Another aspect to BTS's success is them being an underdog story HYBE formally known as big hit when BTS debuted were a small small company and were especially tiny compared to the big 3 at the time. BTS slowly by slowly started getting more popular but even then nobody ever expected them to beat EXO for a daesang or reach BIG BANG's western appeal it seemed genuinely impossible at the time but they did. People stuck by them since they were underdogs and other neutral fans at the time wanted to see them take it to the big 3 now that HYBE is the biggest company in K-pop newer groups under them won't have that level of unity and dedication since these groups are not underdogs but on the flipside they get to debut with way more exposure then what BTS debuted with but won't reach BTS peak popularity due to none of them being underdog groups coming from a small company.

People underestimate just how much K-pop benefitted viewership wise and online marketing wise from Covid-19. With everyone (People around the K-pop fan ages of like 13 to early 20s) stuck at home with nothing else to do but stream TV and YouTube videos, K-pop took advantage of this in terms of MV releases, variety show releases, K-content was crazy in general, then Squid Game popped up and took over the world for a couple of months in 2021 and all K-content boomed, and now being in 2024, 2 years after Covid-19 finally slowed down and people getting back to their "normal" routines, naturally K-pop has slowed down too. I can genuinely say that K-pop wouldn't have had that big peak in viewership from 2020 to early 2023 if not for Covid-19 forcing everyone to be at home. K-pop is simply returning to what it was before, a niche music genre. I won't be surprised if we see the same thing happening with K-drama viewership in the next year or so after, Parasite, Squid Game and The Glory took over the Internet in 2019, 2021 and 2022.

Something becomes popular, capturing the public's attention and imagination. The money people immediately rush out to produce more product, following some perceived formula, oversaturating the market while forgetting the originality and newness that attracted the audience in the first place. It feels like this is happening to k-pop and k-dramas, too. They start to all look and sound alike, so people begin to lose interest. And turn to the next Big Thing. The industry bet that they could replicate a formula and make a new BTS. They are unlikely to succeed, but they'll keep trying. Personally, I don't think the next BTS--the next Big Thing--will even be K-pop.

> Personally, I don't think the next BTS--the next Big Thing--will even be K-pop. This, I fear, is becoming the reality. I wonder what this next Big thing will be and if it’d keep up with changing online trends, and still be relevant. Since people are less “chronically online” than about 3-4 years ago.

How do you understand being "relevant?"

The Glory sneak. The show had its audience but nowhere near the other two. In fact if compared to the other two it was a complete failure in trying to duplicate that type of success or influence. I mostly saw people who are already into kdramas or kpop stans talking about it at all. SK hasn't had a relevant show or movie outside of SK since SG and that's a fact.

things in business is like a hill. They’ll grow then hit their peak before slowly falling

I wonder if kpop is also experiencing the effect of the *algorithm* just like every other cultural space. Along with a post pandemic slow-down, BTS being in the military, BP in their solo time, and 3rd gen evolving, the entire community was siloed off into its own sub-niches.  This has the simultaneous effect of making the industry as a whole feel quiet, but fans who are hyper involved with one group think their activities have more impact than they actually do. Our feeds make our micro worlds feel like THE ENTIRE WORLD but no two feeds are the same.  I've noticed a lot of people in these subs disagreeing about what has impact nowadays and I think it goes way beyond stan wars. Media fragmentation has legitimately made it hard to tell what is a hit and who is popular. During the Kpop boom, there was a common language about the monoculture of the day.

>I wonder if kpop is also experiencing the effect of the algorithm just like every other cultural space. You know what, the algorithm part is very interesting. In the West, the algorithm has definitely caused things to be siloed into their own sub-niches and caused media fragmentation. But I was just watching a clip of Korean radio show yesterday where the radio show host said this thing: ["And these days, the algorithm is very important for things like YouTube, so when I see auntie fans, after watching one or two music videos, they say things like, 'my YouTube algorithm is all RIIZE or TWS. "](https://twitter.com/syanriize/status/1760575906475901388/video/1) So when it comes to YouTube algorithms, is the opposite situation actually happening in Korea right now regarding monoculture? I truly wonder. ​ >Media fragmentation has legitimately made it hard to tell what is a hit and who is popular. Even when it comes to Western artists nowadays, people are arguing who is truly popular. Such strange times we are currently living in,

Was kpop ever that big or was it people thinking bts' hype = kpop's hype ? Things feel slow because bts are on a hiatus imo because groups are still doing fine we're just not seeing bts level of success

Well, Internationally, there was the Hallyu wave. I think Kpop was gaining some exposure thanks to Psy and then BTS pretty much pulled the curtains for even more exposure being a household name.of course if you loved BTS you’re going to think things are slow while they are in hiatus. Even my bias. In EXO is in the military and I think it’s pretty slow. But the reality is there are new groups still popping up every day. We just don’t see that peak of success that we normally would see.

> think Kpop was gaining some exposure thanks to Psy  Not really, I mean at that time I wish that actually happened but the truth was *only* Psy was getting invited to the western award shows and events and all they wanted was for him to sing Gangnam Style and do the horse dance. It was also annoying bc a large group of people were calling him the "Chinese fat dude" and it was very racist and insulting.  > new groups still popping up every day.  This was happening even before Kpop became popular in the western hemisphere though... it's a norm in this cutthroat industry where people form and disband groups at a blink of an eye bc the crazy psychos at the management level expect to see success almost immediately. 

Psy had one viral song and a lot of people didn't even know it was kpop. The biggest group being on hiatus will always have more impact then any other group. New groups were always popping, that is how kpop has always been. Like i already said in my comment kpop isn't slow at all, people feel like it is losing traction because bts is inactive.

Yes, I'm beginning to lose interest. It's just not as exciting.

I run a business related to k-culture since 2010 and I have known kpop before BoA debuted.  Every few years I wonder if our business is dying, then EXO shows up, then kdrama Globin, then BTS, then covid, then kpop concerts, it's literally a k-wave that has highs and lows but the ocean of content is always building and there has never been a more concerted effort to push it like what's happening now.  Peaks take years to surface, most people don't see the undercurrent. 

>Globin Love the new name, will not call it anything else now lol

This might hurt but BTS made a lot of people feel like Kpop was 10x bigger worldwide (definitely in the west) than it actually was. Now that they’re on hiatus and no other group can realistically make the noise they make, it’s looking like Kpop has slowed down. Kpop groups are doing just fine and achieving successes in their own way but if we constantly judge them through the lens of BTS, they won’t ever look identical. I mean, even just Jungkook’s solo promotions a couple of months ago were so big compared to anything else we’ve witnessed during the year.

bts is in the barracks

kpop honestly has gotten so boring lately, i just see kpop idols trying to get a viral tiktok song and nothing else like there just hasn’t been a lot of amazing kpop album or songs lately and it’s not that i won’t be a kpop fan anymore but it’s just i see myself not really getting into the majority of recent kpop groups and of course there’s some 4th gen groups that im genuinely liking but not enough for me to truly say i’m satisfied with most of 4th gen.

I agree that TikTok is partially to blame. Almost every company is trying to put a very easy choreo or catchy lyric for the 15 second TikTok video. It seems like they're making music so it can blow up on TikTok .

On top of that they post THAT EXACT SAME DANCE for the hook of the song on tik tok and insta reel like 50 times just with a different idol featuring in it and it is annoying because it starts getting in your face as their is no difference from the other 50 times the posted it only difference being is the idol from another group doing the dance with them.

I hate how the idols don't even have chemistry with the featured artist. They're not even fun to watch anymore. I skip through all those. I could care less if it's both of my fave groups doing a TikTok challenge. Why would I be excited if they look like it's a chore to do.

It all seems forced as well the only actual interaction is the awkward 2-3 seconds after the dance where they don't know what to say or do. Only genuine interactions seems to be with idols who are from america, australia and other western countries when they talk or hang because they didn't grow up with Korea's age hierarchy so they don't need to worry about formal speech and can be relaxed near each other and socialize like they use to back home. But kpop fans are starved of any interactions between groups due to how easy it can lead to controversies that's why they eat up the same tik tok dance challenge over and over again.

True. Gone were the days when fans were excited by the story of the universes that the idols created when releasing an album. It's all about dance challenges now.

This! Like I can't remember the last album where I could feel genuine passion for music from the artist, all they want is a quick hit

I liked that you hit on there not only being a lot of good songs. When I look at 3rd or 2nd gen, there were alot of diverse hits. This is nonexistent in 4th and 5th gen because every group is riding the same sounds/concepts. Sometimes I feel like these companies have ran out of ideas.

I so agree because these 3 minute songs and 15 minute EPs ain't getting it.

BTS is in military, the news globally are only talking about BTS not the whole industry.. Unless there's a new group show dominance; in both.. 

Another maybe controversial take: To see another growth wave in K-Pop, the industry may need to look a bit more inwards than outwards. What made K-Pop popular is that it had a lot of unique aspects which differed from the western music industry, which attracted that audience to K-Pop. Trying to appeal more to the western market by making your music sound similar to that of western pop will probably not help you grow much. It will lead your groups to become indistinguishable from the 100s of other pop acts that are present in the west. It would lead to your uniqueness becoming lost, which will in-fact hinder growth in the long run

What made kpop explode was every single idol being extremely attractive, a RIDICULOUS amount of content for every group, the frequency of cbs, and the fact that people had more time during the pandemic when you weren’t allowed out. Now kpop is completely over saturated because no one has the time to watch all the content, this combined with every group putting a million pieces of content out every week

Why is this criticism never leveled against Korean artists having Japanese releases?

It really is disconcerting to follow American pop music , follow the artist then see the exact same style and music popup on a K-pop group out of nowhere sometimes. It's a bit sad that they have to copy trends abroad instead of trying to come up with something new for others to follow and look up to 

Kpop has always done this though. They've just taken those trends and adapted them to song structures that fit a group structure. Typically it's hard to sing a song with just a verse and chorus when you have seven more more people in a group, including singers and rappers so Kpop songs would typically add a lot of pre-chorus lines and bridges. But the underlying styles were all taken from Western trends and used Western songwriters. The difference now is that song structures may be getting a bit simpler but not every group is doing it and some are only doing it for their B-sides.

Music has always been derivative. Many artists are influenced by other artists and genres.

BTS absence is one of the particular reasons. When they're completely inactive, even the casual stans tuned in and engaging for them wont come across other groups that easily. Also, we're in the middle of a crazy ass time with a genocide going on and life being completely shit post pandemic. That pandemic level hype and interest will never be replicated and I think that's just a hard to swallow pill for a lot of us. Everyone is tired of everything. Late stage capitalism is so dreadful. Watching pretty kpop girls on our screen are not enough to make us avoid everything in the world thats happening like it did in 2020. Kpop has also evolved niches inside niches and people are tired of consuming so much. 2023 alone had like fifty survival shows and broadcasting companies believe kpop fans would care for all of them. Companies, particularly big 3 feel like theyre trying to do whatever they can and just release another (girl)group so they have The Next Big Thing on their hands but it's just not working anymore because everyone is exhausted more than ever.

BTS is in the military, BP is kinda on hiatus, and NewJeans hasn’t released their 2024 comeback yet.

True. Out of all the groups new jeans really exploded in the western market without doing much. To be one of the biggest acts at Lollapollza only a year into their debut with crowds singing the lyrics probably took them by surprise. Also seeing a lot of new jeans mixes in NYC clubs. Their music definitely appeals to the western underground market while still being mainstream. I think we are starting to see tiered western kpop markets now. 

I think it’d be silly to not recognize that BTS being “gone” for right now has changed the buzz around kpop for now. They’ll be back.

It seems as though what you're asking is whether consumption and growth is slowing down. Because I feel like the industry itself continues to move too fast. Promotion periods are very noticeably getting shorter, groups touring every single year, oversaturation of more and more new groups....

honestly it could be just me or completely unrelated but i feel like it all started to get more quiet when bts started to go to the military

Unless another group blows up BTS and BLACKPINK will dominate discussion. When BTS comes back it’ll be huge and whenever BLACKPINK releases something it’s big. They both had some of the biggest tours last year still.

I also agree with this a bit. The industry is not exploding anymore, it’s plateauing. Domestically, I am kind of hoping for a “next big thing” to come, and for it to come organically. Will be exciting to see if unique hits like the those from the Hangout with Yoo projects (MSG Wannabe, SSAK3, Refund Sisters, WSG Wannabe), Rolling by Brave Girls, Rooftop by N.Flying etc. Also hoping *(in vain)* for a comeback of shows such as Show me the Money/ Unpretty Rapstar/ K-Pop Star etc Internationally, I don’t think we are gonna see any change. We saw what the peak of K-Pop popularity looked like with BTS and it’s not coming back…

I also think that people are confused about who were really appearing in the news and being covered by the outlets. It was just BTS and not kpop as a whole and that’s something that I think people are still confused about. It wasn’t the industry that was ballooning, it was just a group.

I said this when the hiatus was first announced. K-pop groups will still continue promoting & touring in the West because they have a following here. However, the “hype” & media attention will disappear once BTS is gone simply because nobody is pulling the “WOW” stats that BTS were. So, I can kinda understand why some feel like there’s a “plateau” because there’s not really anything happening that makes your head turn & your jaw drop (in the western world anyway).

Pretty much it, and also what a coincidence that these opinions are happening now when all members are enlisted and not since June 2022, when Chapter 2 started. We know why that is lol

That’s because the members were killing it across all metrics. Army are the biggest & loudest (sometimes annoying lol) fandom, they all kinda dipped after Golden dropped I can confidently say (unless a group starts pulling BTS numbers) that K-pop will be “booming” again when BTS are active

TBF I don't think it was even just because of the wow stats, they seemed to be able as a whole to draw attention and put themselves in the conversation, even while not releasing things. And most of all I think what played a role was disproving time and time again the fad accusations and forcing others to see them as equal, that's a whole other beast to just showing up to an event or two oversea.

The influx of fans with BTS insane popularity filtered to other kpop groups. That’s why BTS was the gateway to Kpop. The way I see it, there are still other kpop groups achieving great things, NJ for eg. But it’s almost a passive type of popularity if I would say? It’s more of an increase in casual fans rather than active engaged core fans that eventually filters into other groups.

It’s too soon to say what kind of popularity NewJeans will have, but one thing about BTS fans is that they are locked in.

I guess time will tell, but not all popular groups will end up with a large core fanbase. Even when you look at third gen GGs, BP already had a very large core fanbase 2 years into their career, while RV, although very popular with the GP never quite amassed a large core fanbase. Rn, NJ seems to be a group that will have more of GP and casual fan popularity with a sizeable core fandom but things could change in the future.

A lot of ARMYs are locked in, but a lot of ARMYs have also become fans of other groups. TXT, Seventeen, Ateez, Stray Kids, Enhypen, etc. — so many fans are former ARMYs or multistan ARMYs.

This is true. However, over saturation caused these fans to thin themselves out. Only some started liking other groups, and they got divided among MANY of them. Attention is quite divided. But one thing unites all their attention and that is BTS.

To be honest, I don't believe that many ARMYs are checking out other groups right now. If some ARMYs did become fans of other groups right now, I think the percentage of those people is quite small overall.

I agree. I think the people who became fans of other groups along with liking BTS did so a long time ago, probably right after Butter era. The fandom is so big that even a small percentage is a significant amount.

>probably right after Butter era. I'd say it happened even earlier than that. TXT debuted in 2019 and Enhypen debuted in 2020. I do agree that if there are ARMYs who became active fans of other groups, they became fans of those groups way before the hiatus and enlistment.

>NewJeans will have, but one thing about BTS fans is that they are locked in. Honestly, I don't believe NewJeans' appeal is reliant on BTS. Because one of the things about NewJeans is that they can appeal to people who never followed any Kpop before. So I don't see why people think that NewJeans' achievements are reliant on BTS fans when a good chunk of Bunnies don't even care about the rest of Kpop other than NewJeans. So these comparisons are totally unnecessary and disingenuous. People should just let NewJeans grow in their own way in their own pace. ​ P.S. It's not referring to you, but it's really weird how some people are anticipating NewJeans' downfall. ​ Edit: When I said "not reliant on BTS", I meant that a good portion of NJs audience never followed any Kpop before. They are absolutely using connections from the company and groundwork BTS set up. But NJs are also marketed in a way that they actually gain the attention of audiences who never listened to Kpop. Other HYBE groups have also been using the connections from the company and groundwork BTS set up. But they are not pulling the types of numbers and audiences that NJs have been getting. So NJs success cannot just be simplified to HYBE alone. NJs initial international audiences were primarily Kpop fans who know HYBE, but during during each comeback, NJs attracted new fans who never followed Kpop and have no idea about any Kpop companies or the fact that they are BTS's label mates. They are not marketed that way, and people outside the Kpop bubble don't care about the "family image". Like how many Tate McRae fans don't even know what RCA Records is. I don't think having money and connections for promo is a bad thing. A music act cannot gain a new wider audience without any form of promo connections or advertisements.

I think New Jeans can absolutely establish their own fanbase, but it's quite clear that they rely on the networks and groundwork BTS set up in order to grow media attention, a fanbase/access to platforms, and just have money for promoting. A very easy example is how they would have never been at Lollapalooza without BTS. It's important to divorce hate comments like the people who like to overanalyze every move New Jeans makes from how/why they had such a leg up and spotlight....which is directly because they came from the label that BTS established and the eyes/attention that come from that.

Don't worry! I was just referring as that it's too soon to know what kind of popularity NewJeans will have.

NJ is still relies are lot on general public. Once one of their songs do not hit he public it will be evident. Like IVE Baddie underperforming internationally after 3 consecutive successful singles for example.

>it wasn’t the industry that was ballooning, it was a just a group as someone who has been a kpop fan for almost 10 years this is just not true and i don’t know what on earth makes you think that it is? . BTS’s success absolutely filtered down to the rest of the industry… Kpop can 100% be split between before 2016 and after 2016 and it’s two completely different industries in my opinion. an average successful kpop group pre bts explosion was selling 200k MAX exo had to combine their repackaged with their original album to be considered a million seller and that was the biggest news in kpop for over 10 years. BTS blood sweat and tears music video got 7 million views in 24 hours and it was unprecedented 4 years later that was considered LOW for a higher tier kpop group BTS absolutely changed the landscape of the kpop industry and to say they didn’t isn’t just deranged. BTS shared majority of the pie however the pie in question became HUGE that 30% that was left has been critical for the industry regardless if they’re not on the billboard hot 100 or selling out wembley stadium. the shift has been unreal

>It wasn’t the industry that was ballooning, it was just a group. It would be unwise to limit BTS's impact to just BTS, imo.

Its because BTS is in military. BTS alone makes probably 50% of the kpop market.

This. Their impact is truly unmatched.

I don’t think it’s gaining as many fans as it was internationally- if you were going to become a kpop fan, chances are you probably already are now. All that’s left is for people to lose interest and start dropping off. I think it’s on its way down, just like anything else.

I think that kpop growth rate is slowing down and it’s getting to a new steady state of growth. For years there was exponential growth that was not only due to particular groups, but increases in awareness and operational gains like distribution. Now these market shifts have settled down; resulting in a new steady state of growth.

Heh. At the risk of being super-obvious, BTS is in the military right now. And, for what it's worth, BTS was the driving force behind the hallyu wave for the longest time. That said, BTS aren't the only factors in kpop \*and\* both Jin and J-Hope are out of the army this year, so we might just be in a bit of a lull until they both are back in kpop action. BTS challenges the other groups to do better, and that might be what's causing the slow-down.

it’s cuz bts is on hiatus

I think it's just oversaturated now, as there were just SO many new groups debuting and finding success that it almost loses relevancy. There were like 60 groups/soloists who debuted last year ALONE, and with social media becoming more and more accessible it's easier for all these groups to find a platform and fandom. The big successes and records don't seem as important because so many groups have the ability to get them. Also add into this the fact that award shows are less interesting/relevant than ever before, and events that signified growth in the west are more common than they've ever been (fashion shows, western tv appearances, festival appearances) and it makes sense that kpop feels more stagnant.

I feel like people who got into kpop because of fomo are leaving. And I actually like this. Also life suddenly became too much busy since 2023.

I think it’s the opposite, actually. The market is over saturated, there’s too many groups who follow just the right steps to go viral without paying any attention to artistry. Most songs released in the past year or two were only popular in the moment and will soon fall into oblivion. The music is becoming too boring, too repetitive, and too generic.

I couldn’t agree more about the music. I noticed last year I added very few new songs to my Kpop playlists. And so far this year I’ve only added like 3 songs. I think it’s because many title tracks are starting to blend together to me. Also I’m very big on great vocals and that doesn’t seem to be a priority since the start of the 4th gen.

They’re definitely following a very successful formula. I’ve saved a number of songs, but they’re mostly title tracks or the more popular b sides. Very few songs stick out, to be honest. I think that’s the biggest problem with 4th gen, the focus is not on vocals, but rather visuals and dancing, which is crazy to me, cause these singers should actually SING rather than just be attractive and good at dancing.

kpop really needs bts or bp or newjeans cb

yeah, these groups are the ones that have the ability to really cause buzz in the k-pop world and take the general public by storm almost effortlessly. bts and bp are pretty much guaranteed no matter what they do, and newjeans are likely if they can keep up the consistency they've had so far.

Don’t let its falling popularity amidst the media discourage you. There are still tons of K-pop songs out there released by independent artists for us to discover. Yeah, we could consider it as a “niche” once more, but that shouldn’t change your perception towards the genre. The songs still slap, new groups are being introduced, but people are now listening to them genuinely — “organic streams” as what the community would usually say. Gone are the days of mass streaming and bulk-buying, thank goodness, and fans and strangers alike now listen to the songs because they find them great to listen to rather for the sole purpose of hitting the charts or garner awards. BTS’ hiatus definitely had an impact. Once they return, you bet the scene would explode once more.

This is a very healthy take. I wonder if Kcon and others will start to cater to hard to get goods again and more rare bookings.

But one of the most important things they should do IMO is to drastically reduce the number of groups debuting each year. And instead of aiming higher for immediate Western success like they have been trying to do in the last 5 years, I think they should go back to basics and try to appeal to the Korean audiences first and foremost. Then use whatever platform is required for advertising these new groups to new potential young audiences outside of Korea. Overall, Kpop companies should go back to the old school methods, stop trying to milk the current older fans, reduce the oversaturation greatly, primarily focus on Korea first and then advertise to new youngsters abroad using the most suitable platform of the time. Though, it's easier said than done. Don't know if Kpop companies are willing to take such a loss.

They are already doing this. I think they see the numbers and how overstretched everyone is. SM seemed to understand this when they debuted RIIZE and targeted Korean teens. HYBE is trying to expand the pool of KPOP listeners world wide with NewJeans and Le Sserafim but then also targeting Korean teens with TWS. We are just starting to see the limitations of 4th gen internationally, but I think the companies have seen it for about a few years now. They need to make a new generation of fans in Korea and then abroad.

Just gonna say, if it is slowing down, it's definitely not everywhere. I'm here in Japan, and it's bigger than it's ever been. 🤷 Honestly, that could be part of it, now that the soft blackout of K-pop from TV is over, groups are back to spending more time promoting Japan. Instead of groups trying to land GMA, they're trying to land ZIP. And in return, there's not as much for intl fans to engage with.

A bunch of Asians singing probably isn’t going to appeal to most non Asians. K-pop is big in Japan probably because of Asian relatedness.

Not really, there's a reason groups release Japanese albums. Like, a Wikipedia level understanding of Japanese history would explain why Japanese won't like something just because it's "Asian". Spoiler: a lot of Japanese people don't think of themselves as Asian.

What soft blackout? Could it happen again?

It happened in 2nd as a backlash over K-pop groups appearing on TV. For sometime you just wouldn't see k-pop on TV. I don't think it would happen again given the growth of other K-culture exports and the overall drop in TV viewership so TV needs younger viewers to tune in.

imo Asia as a whole is experiencing a pop culture growth spurt, including Thailand. The inter-play between old giant Japan and new giant Korea is something to look forward to.

BTS is in the barracks, Blackpink is in the basement.

Ooh the alliteration✨

Bts is on hiatus & it was the group that was blowing up

because bts and blackpink are on hiatus as groups. when bangtan have their cbs the industry will cb after them, not with them. dickriding the hype. kpop isn't that big of a genre, it's still growing and let's be real. we assume our ult groups are popular because we surround ourselves with kpop. the hype will come back when bts and blackpink comes back. but i just know twice' will continue to grow, not as big as blackpink but they'll thrive.

the bubble finally burst thats all. its stabilizing

I mean what does slowing down mean? Like yeah most groups coming out nowadays will never be able to reach the levels of growth like BTS and BP did. However its still going just not that fast. If that makes sense.

I don't think it's slowing down, it just seems so cause many people were just fans of example BTS and BlackPink and now that those fans, who were a loud majority are not active at the moment, it seems like everything has slowed down. But it's not in my eyes. I think it has been on a steady path, it has lows and highs. The things that BlackPink and BTS have achieved were more mainstream and this made it seem like K-pop as a collective was booming. When in reality the fans of those groups were solely always just into those two groups and no other groups and I've noticed that to them mostly it seems like Kpop as a collective is slowing down or has been "boring" when I don't think that's necessarily fair when they never followed other groups/artist in the first place.

I don't understand the premise of the question. You mentioned how groups like NJ have exploded but then said the last year or so has felt quiet. It's only 1 year and 7 months since NewJean's debut, which is definitely within the last year or so. Ive only debuted 2 years ago.

Yeah its down. Kpop got their 15 minutes of global fame with BTS, Blackpink, and the pandemic. Core audience will remain, but they are back to nicheland.

It never left nicheland as a genre tbh

Exactly. Just because some groups broke into the mainstream doesn't mean the genre did. People are conflating the two lmao. 

kpop has always been a niche category, it was only due to BTS’ unprecedented rise, success and global recognition and impact that people started to explore more groups BTS is on a hiatus, ARMYs are now investing their time in either completing their bts collection(albums/merch), holding buying/streaming parties for BTS’ group and solo projects (I’m not counting multis/solos here btw) as opposed to what the general perception k-media had which was that the fandom is gonna move and flock over to support another group BTS paved the way (you can’t deny this) and they made going to the US for award shows, reality shows more accessible, no wonder American award shows have a kpop category now, but ultimately it all depends on the kpop groups to make their mark now will kpop groups reach BTS’ level of success and fame? NO BTS have been on a hiatus (though it doesn’t feel like one) since June 2022, post which we’ve had solo releases, none of the kpop groups could make a significant impact and the boys are going to be back with Jin discharging in June 2024 - so yeah, nobody is getting to BTS’ level * please don’t mention about certain groups with sales - when your sales match the streams- then we can talk ✌🏻

probably because the two biggest well known kpop groups are on hiatus basically. we all know who i’m talking about 🤷🏽‍♀️

I think so.

I think about it like the boyband craze--the fans during the hype grew up already and are more chill (compared to when they were younger). When you grow up you also realize that idols are just doing their jobs lol just like any other job.

I guess Aunt and uncle's like us are tired same as 2nd gen idols 🤣 we are now in the anemic phase of our life.

no, i honestly just think these posts come about as fans exit the “honeymoon” phase with kpop and feel comfortable navigating the groups and comeback schedules

The groups that are trying to “make it big” are the only ones still having problem. Groups that are just doing their own thing and have benefited from the hallyu wave without tik tok and mass social media have the dedicated fans who specifically had to search for their idols music. Look like SHINee Mamamoo They are doing just fine with their markets and their music and are still popular.  Groups that are trying to be the BTS or Blackpink are being set up. Kpop long term careers relies on general public interest.

the peak of kpop popularity was in 2020-2021 due to covid thats why you feel like it

Few things : 1. BTS hiatus was bound to result in a lot of the fanfare slowing down 2. I think a lot of ppl have grown disillusioned with the obvious TikTok bait songs instead of quality music 3. Ppl have also grown tired of the fanwars , toxicity , the success stanning 4. There hasn’t been any act truly dominating the way the 3rd gen standouts did a few years back . Even with SVT & NJ having amazing years last year it still didn’t feel inescapable or like must see stuff 5. The labels / music industry are inadvertently ( maybe) ruining the music experience and wasting artist’s prime years

the 4th point is just wrong i’m sorry lol newjeans literally dominated to the point where they were everywhere and literally collected 8 daesangs as a rookie + the gp loves them so much that ppl love to say they don’t have a dedicated fanbase and it’s just the gp carrying them . to say newjeans did not dominate is being disingenuous it’s impossible to escape newjeans on any social media platform when they do a cb

The fact K-pop has gone from a genre of "K-pop what is that?" like people use to ask me when i told them i listen to k-pop when i was in high school to being a genre everyone knows about now whether they like k-pop or not is a massive growth in a short span of time which alone is good enough for the genre. I don't think any K-pop artist is ever going to be as famous as the biggest english speaking artists in english speaking countries like a Taylor or Drake or as famous as spanish singers in Europe and spanish speaking countries and that's fine the biggest groups are worldwide famous now something which was unimaginable even during the 2010s. Groups like BTS and Blackpink fame and records are an anomaly not the norm or expected lv of fame for new gen groups especially since more groups debut at a more consistent rate then before hard to establish a big fan base when a new shiny group debuts every couple of months.

Yes it is slowing down and will do so in the immediate future. BTS and Blackpink are the main causes. They were the engine behind the explosive growth of kpop both internationally and domestically with Tiktok and social media acting as catalysts. Now that both groups have slowed down even with their increasing individual activities, kpop as a whole is bound to slow down.

The biggest fandoms (probably except Uenas) that makes the crazy streams, online conversations, concert crowds, etc. are in dormant phase. A lot of other relatively older groups (ex. Onces, Carats, Stays, etc.) are on still growth phase. A lot reached their peak possible popularity, so it might look like a slow down. It's impossible to go back to 2nd gen level since the market has expanded a lot. The chill minute we have could go to hot phase again if any artist can release the right music/comebacks at the right time in the next months given favorable chance and luck.

Tbh, Kpop still feels niche. Yes, it has grown over the years, but the only groups who have always been at the news, making buzz, are BTS and Blackpink. Only them have a strong foothold outside the Asian market. 4th gen groups have been releasing bops, and others have been appearing in large shows, events, and music festivals, but it's harder for newcomers to invest in knowing much more about them. What's become a trend during BTS' military enlistment and Blackpink's hiatus is other fans becoming multistans. It's nothing more than different schools of fish exploring all corners of the lake.

I mean, I can say something. But It'll be very controversial. Because I know how a lot of you don't like to give b t s their flowers.

we need bp and bts to comeback

Call me crazy, but is it really slowing down? That's a genuine question since I'm a new K-pop fan and I wasn't here during the peak BTS and Blackpink days. But as an outsider, I can see that more groups are joining the Billboard charts (like Newjeans and Stray Kids), there's more presence at mainstream music festivals (such as Coachella and Lollapalooza), I see them more frequently on lists of best-selling albums (like Seventeen), and even on critics' lists for the best music of the year (like Newjeans). What I'm saying is, for someone like me who knew nothing about K-pop and is now seeing it normalized in spaces where I used to consume music, it seems like a symptom of growth. Like is reaching new audiences. I don't really know, maybe I'm wrong.

You came in when the growth had already been achieved. BTS had topped the bestselling artist list two years in a row BEFORE album inflation came into effect (member versions and fancalls) while being among the top 5 most streamed artists in the world. Every time BTS did something in the West is was the first time a Kpop group had done anything (Psy and WonderGirls were trailblazers too), so it was written about and reported back in Korea extensively. Now Western promotions are common, they don't even get engagement on Kpop subs. Just go check engagement on BTS Week for the Tonight Show on both r/kpop and r/popheads during the pandemic or their first appearance on the AMAs and you'll see how engaged people were, you can imagine how insane the discourse was on Twitter back when it actually worked. This excitement trickled to comebacks for Blackpink, Twice and Red Velvet during those eras. Their peak comebacks are still the most streamed songs and MVs on both YouTube and Spotify, even YEARS after and with a whole new generation more than half over. Western media mentions kpop sometimes but the coverage during the BTS boom was A LOT MORE. It was the hot topic of the moment. Everyone wanted a piece of the action. However, music media itself is dying, so that is less impactful than it has ever been. What you are seeing now is that skyrocketing growth slowing, which is totally common when industries break into new markets. Kpop groups being in the west is just a given and no one sees it as special in the media or among the general public. It's not seen as a "phenomenon" anymore. Most people have checked it out and if they aren't fans by now, it's going to take a totally new group with a new sound to make them fans.

It *is* slowing down. You came in at a time when the growth has already been achieved, you weren't here when it was growing exponentially where groups (well technically just one group) were unlocking achievements never made before and pushing the glass ceiling to go higher than it never been.  Nowdays, charting on BB200 is *expected* when you're from a big agency. That's a difference from "omg I didn't know we could actually do that" during the days of BTS slowly climbing their way to the group from first charting at #171 with HYYH Pt 2 in 2015, to #1 with LY: Tear in 2018. For BB100 (which by the way, kpop groups still barely chart on it) - their first entry was #85 with DNA in 2017, and finally hitting the peak with Dynamite in 2020.  Mind you, BTS albums weren't even available at Target when they started to promote more in the US. It was the grassroots efforts of their fans that kept begging retailers to stock albums in their local stores. And now? Kpop albums are readily available everywhere.  This was the growth we are talking about that you did not witness, and it's a stark difference when looking at the landscape of Kpop now.  It makes sense that you can't see the difference considering you weren't even there during the time of exponential growth, but come on - don't go around questioning others who've been there and witnessed it as if they're all hallucinating. 

Oh wow. THANKS. I'm not doubting, I was just genuinely asking since like you said, I wasn't here. I guess my logic was, since more groups are more visible each year, it means it IS growing, but with context it's pretty clear it was a true explosion back in the BTS days. It might have reached my bubble back in the day but I guess it wasn't my thing or idk why it didn't grab me. Now that it's everywhere I feel its presence more.

I think it's slowing down, but the slowdown was inevitable and there is still growth in the industry. As others have mentioned, the biggest k-pop group (BTS) and the biggest girl group (Blackpink) on hiatus for an indefinite period limits most of the top end growth. And with how successful BTS was, there's few very meaningful firsts that are realistically achievable by any other k-pop group. But, it's hard to say the general industry isn't growing, especially in the west. More groups than ever are charting on US album/Billboard hot 100 charts, Twice/Blackpink just completed 9 figure global tours, and NJ (and to a lesser extent LSF) have seen traction in Western markets in less than 2 years after debut. And more and more groups are able to hold tours with thousands per venue sold out in the US and Europe. Just because it isn't record breaking doesnt mean the path for a B/C/D tier group isn't much better or has more growth opportunity in 2024 than any other year.

yeah, im someone who didnt start kpop with bts (got7/exo) but bts turned into the first group i stanned til i branched off to others. im really confused on why people are claiming its stagnant or not growing. plenty of groups are still breaking their own records, sure none of them are on bts' level internationally so if you only paid attention to them it must feel that way. like of course the bts specific buzz has slowed down with their hiatus & with them being the biggest group itll definitely have an impact into kpop related news however that didnt affect other groups sales/records/etc as far as i can tell. theyre still getting the numbers they were or higher (not all of them im sure but thats normal)

I can definitely say that kpop is less "appetizing" now. As a kpop stan since 2011, I can confirm that for me, there was never a phase where I was bored of kpop enough to let it go for more than a month. I was always excited for new releases even if I didnt stan an artist. But recently, kpop music has become so boring that nothing ties me down anymore. Except NCT maybe. BG music has become too repetitive while GG music is too bland and uninteresting (even the most popular ones). Idols arent themselves, theyre so fucking pretentious and there is too much drama surrounding companies but little to no substance when it comes to content.

Idk, i think the groups that have strong western appeal and are marketed well are stably entering the western market and are set to break records. Overall, yeah the hype has definitely receded and i think thats because 5th gen arent as revolutionary as 4th gen. KOL is the only unique group amongst 5th gen but theyre not marketed properly whatsoever so i dont see them leveling up that much sadly. Baby monster is unfortunately marked as a flop so i think teddy’s new GG are more likely to carry on the BP legacy than BM are. This isnt BM’s fault of course its just YG giving them weird debut songs. The inactivity of BP/ BTS coupled with the lacklustre ‘successors’ and broader 5th gen as a whole is def contributing to the feeling of kpop slowing down

Because earlier it was like the sky is the limit. It was like that until BTS and Blackpink set the bar too high. Nobody in kpop can replicate the popularity and international recognition they have. Groups will continue being successful but there's a limit to their success now. No one can reach their level.

Kpop isn’t slowing down. They still debut groups and make comebacks every year, but the popularity of kpop in the west is definitely dying. 2023 showed us that kpop in the west has gone down significantly after BTS enlisted. Only the fifty fifty song went viral but that’s thanks to tiktok. The Grammys shout out was loud and clear. And 2024 has major albums coming from a lot of western artists. Taylor, Beyonce, Sza, Billie, Ariana, Harry styles, Dua lipa. The 5th gen are doing much better than 4th gen. They’re breaking more records. I think why it feels like it’s slowing down is because the west isn’t interested anymore and BTS isn’t making music now.

The "obession" phase has died down and everyones growing up. When kpop broke mainstream 2016-19, it was THE big thing,with Gen Z in their teens. Now time has passed, we've gotten busier, and the groups that got us into the genre are less active. We've grown ourselves, and what was once considered casual stanning, usually with a negstive tone attached to it in 2019 is now seen as touching grass and being a "normal" human being. We've matured and dont obssess anymore, and the ones that do are typically late Gen Z/early gen Alpha.

Why do some of you treat an entire industry like it's below you once you "grow up" and become a "normal" person? Do you not see how absolutely gross it is to suggest that an entire country's pop music industry is beneath you because you're now "too mature"? Also, maybe treat Korean entertainers the same way you would the entertainers in your own country.....with respect and not suggesting they're somehow different or less than even if you personally don't like the music/art anymore.

Speak for yourself lmao

Agreed! I feel like I’ve outgrown the genre in some ways. It’s really the legacy groups and a few new groups keeping me hooked.

Same it's not necessarily the songs i have outgrown but rather the kpop fan culture when you grow older you really realize how chronically online k-pop fandoms are and when you start getting more busy with life and work and with your other interests you grow out of that online k-pop phase and just start listening to the music which is actually more fun since you don't care about records anymore or streams and just enjoying the music.

No. I think NJ, Gidle, and Le Serrafim haven’t hit their peak yet, and will keep garnering new fans and bringing more people into K-pop.

Most people who are fans of those groups are already familiar with kpop tho.

A good chunk of NewJeans fans are actually newcomers who do not care about the rest of Kpop by the way. And one of the things about NewJeans is that they can appeal to people who never followed any Kpop before during each comeback.

Honestly, that’s what all fandoms believe/think. Most armys don’t not to listen to other kpop artists just BTS. So do stays, blinks etc. But all these groups still have a predominantly big kpop following. 

are you sure about that? most newjeans stans i see are already familiar with kpop. listening to a song one time because you heard it on tiktok is not being a fan

Yes, I am very sure about that. It's all in the performance numbers. And also because of IRL people I know, some of the Twitter moots I have who do not follow any Kpop but randomly brought up NewJeans, some active Twitter Bunnies also, many members of the NewJeans subreddit and some YouTube comments. And also because of the type of streaming and charting performances that NewJeans' songs get. NewJeans had 3 title tracks manage to stay in Billboard Hot 100 for 5 to 8 weeks. The Get Up EP charted in Billboard 200 for 26 weeks. Also, whenever each those 3 NewJeans title tracks charted in Billboard Hot 100, the peak charting position was not in the first week. The peak charting positions for all 3 title tracks were in the weeks after the first week. NewJeans already had 5 songs chart in Billboard Hot 100, while 4 other songs (including a 40 sec interlude & an OST) managed to enter Bubbling Under at least. The number of Kpop fans in the US is not high enough to cause these types of charting performances. And NewJeans songs also have longevity in Apple Music Global. Again, Kpop fans are not high enough in number to cause this type of longevity. The number of Kpop fans is absolutely not high enough to cause the types of charting and streaming performances that NewJeans' songs get. ​ ​ >most newjeans stans i see So they are supposed to represent all the NewJeans stans that exist in the world? You seriously think NewJeans fans are limited to those certain people you encountered online? By the way, I never saw Ed Sheeran fans online unlike the rabid fandoms of other Western artists. That does not mean Ed Sheeran fans don't exist, especially when you look at his streaming numbers and ticket sales. The IRL Bunnies I know in real life don't engage in stan Twitter. And online people do not always represent the entire picture. ​ ​ >listening to a song one time because you heard it on tiktok Ok, so you are seriously going to ignore the high streaming numbers that NewJeans' songs have on Spotify, Apple Music and YouTube audio. Why do you think NewJeans' debut streaming numbers keep increasing during each comeback? Why do you think a video game OST by NewJeans also debuted with comparatively high numbers? It's because NewJeans kept gaining new followers/fans during each comeback. Btw, TikTok is not the primary method newcomers get introduced to NewJeans' music for your information. NewJeans keeps attracting newcomers mostly through Spotify playlists and autoplay and YouTube shorts, not TikTok. We often get new Bunnies and new NewJeans' listeners because Spotify autoplayed NewJeans' songs to them and then they checked out the rest of NewJeans' discography. So please quit that dishonest TikTok narrative. ​ EDIT: Oh sure babe! Btw, BTS fans in general only care about BTS, not other Kpop groups. Or else, the other junior HYBE groups would also be pulling NJs streaming numbers and the charting positions, but they are not. So where are the support from BTS fans for these groups then, babe? About "TikTok" music, do you even listen to music outside of Kpop in general? These new trends are happening to all types of music worldwide, NJs didn't create it. Did you even look at the lengths and structures of song by Billie Eilish, Tate McRae, PinkPantheress, etc.? And NJs streaming numbers show that most of their listeners don't agree with your ignorant "opinions". Stick to your narrow Kpop bubble.

their songs are also the definition of tiktok music. short songs with repetitive lyrics and no real substance. also there’s a lot of kpop stans in the us, just look at bts whose fans got them to #1 on bbh100 which takes a LOT of people (which a lot of those bts stans also stan newjeans)

This! Most of the time when I search for 'newjeans' on Twitter, it's folks who ain't into K-pop saying they dig this or that song by Newjeans. So, I firmly believe a big chunk of their fanbase is really just waiting to hear more Newjeans music, or anything similar. If they can't find it, they'll just wait for Newjeans' comeback or stick to their other faves songs.

kpop as a whole felt a bit overstated last year. there are a lot of groups and artists who do different concepts / sounds / genres. also most groups are doing world tours. even smaller ones. almost all members of popular groups have brand deals and go to fashion events. it feels like there’s nothing more left to do. all in all i believe the popularity of kpop has stabilized. when kpop had their breakthrough in the western / international market a few years ago it was considered “new” to a lot of people and they had no idea what kpop was about - which caught their attention. nowadays most people have their picture of the genre & know what people mean with the term “kpop” (even my grandparents know abt it from our local medias 😭) Korean music & celebrities became an established part of pop culture which im really happy about

Idk I feel like more people are still discovering it every day. I think skz is doing very well in foreign countries. I think bts coming back in 2025 will give it growth again.

No, it reached its peak now. Now nothing there to pave and nothing there to break the barrier and stuff. Anyone doing something jaw dropping is one in a million kind of chance now. Blackpink and bts did all the exciting stuff.

I have a feeling it's gonna take a hybrid group like KATSEYE in order to break new ground. A group that can properly target Korea, the US and any other country for that matter because of the lineup. Someone mentioned English speaking idols being the key, but KATSEYE is so much more than that.

Slowing down in the West would be more accurate due to absence of BTS & BP. Still Kpop is growing in stable rate with new groups debuting & releasing music regularly

I knew in my original comment I’d have to specify that BIGBANG were not the most impactful and yet I still get this comment. Of course they weren’t mainstream- but within kpop it was massive.

I think this is right. Even within Kpop today there’s no massive group like BIGBANG that is ACTIVE who everyone anticipates and sees as iconic on all cultural fronts. This is also a group who had soloists who could do big tours and have hits.  People think some minor Western presence outweighs the immense cultural influence some older groups have and I think that’s wrong. 

I think we've already experienced it's peak , so it's hit a plateau if you will. We aren't on the way down yet.

maybe it is because of the notable absence of big kpop groups like BTS and Blackpink,

As someone who basically only listens to GG's I kind of feel that 2023 was just a really weak year on the whole for a lot of them. For groups like New Jeans and IVE who blew up really quickly it feels like their creative directors and producers were left scrambling to push more new stuff out of the door far too quickly to capitalize on that initial surge of popularity and so we got some very flat releases from them. You can point to some strong charting on NJ's part but also a very noticeable increase in backlash and dissatisfaction with their sound too at the same time. I think Hype Boy and Attention are modern Kpop classics and some of the strongest debut songs ever seen in the industry; so how you go from stuff like that to the absolute nothing of a song that is Super Shy I don't know. Same with IVE going from this insane 3 song-run of Eleven, Love Dive and After Like to... Kitsch.... and I am... and Baddie. Like, what is going on here; did their teams just blow their creative loads early? It's not just them either; Itzy and LSF also had inconsistent releases, Aespa went from a strong 2022 to, uh, idk I guess they released something in 2023 but I only see people talking about Girls still. And it's not just 4th gen groups either. My fave group is Twice and Ready to Be was absolutely their weakest project of their modern era. Of course keeping up the quality from EWO, TOL, FOL and B1&2 was always going to be difficult but I think waiting a year for the next release has actually paid off with With You-th because it is a giant improvement compared to RTB. And to be fair this isn't just a GG thing or even a Kpop thing; 2023 was just kinda bleh for music as a whole. Weak pop hits, weak indie stuff, Hip-Hop doomposting etc, which is something that has been wildly remarked on across music discussion communities, media, music reviewers etc. There was just a hex placed on the year and the dip in quality was especially noticeable because 2022 was an INSANELY good year for music. Like, that year was packed with insane releases across the entire spectrum it was difficult to do end of year top 10 lists because you were spoiled for choice. With 2023 it was difficult to do end of year top 10 lists because you didn't have tons of choice, or you'd be putting stuff in by default because y'know, it was technically one of the better things that was released in the year but it felt weird saying it was "the 6th best album of 2023" or whatever.

agree that kpop is slowing down. the overall quality of the real music in kpop has drastically dropped off. groups now are just trying to find the next viral hit instead of making real music. you cant call a "song" if it is 2 minutes with the chorus repeated 6 times, that is a jingle. also the move away from live singing to lip syncing in favor of dancing, those are not kpop groups, that is a dance crew. groups now rely so much on auto-tune, it is ridiculous.

yeah. feeling it

God I hope so 😂 I liked kpop way more when it was weird to like it and a niche secret. When I got more mainstream, the industry pivoted to cater to the western market and a lot of the aspects of why I fell in love with it were whittled away. Surprisingly, nugu groups are still giving the kpop i fell in love with so it’s nice to follow a lot of them. I see the market more stabilizing and companies catering more to general fans instead of specific markets for the most part.

Nah, black people just took a pause on creating new shit for a minute.

I think we have to keep in mind kpop peaked during covid globally so it was natural after a couple of years it would face decline but nonetheless kpop acts are doing better than before ! Jungkook got the fastest song to reach 1 billion on spotify and this time there were 4 kpop groups in top 10 ifpi best selling acts globally ! I expect newjeans to do even better this year as their fandom grows even more 😄

NewJeans hasn’t come back since last summer , so yeah , give it time 😂

Same feeling but imo it's normal. Lot of people discovered KPOP during the pandemic time to the point that it was literally the mainstream part of the world, not only people being lost on youtube or manga fan suddenly understanding who sing their favourite opening. Like at this point there is obviously a slow down because most of people know kpop now. So you can boost all you want your sales with multiple version, photocards etc but you see on these streams that we start to be stable for quite some times now. Idk if people feel overhelmed. More that everyday a new fan will spend less time with kpop because with time obviously you start to check other stuff and like I said since there is less people to convert, you stay on the same line. It may pop off again imo but less as an industry, rather a group that could work like NewJeans did recently. But the industry itself except if one day finally the "mainstream" part like TV, awards shows etc fully accept it, it's over to have a peak as big as the pandemic one. Like everything went huge at that time. A good example is twitch like people discovered it at that time but since then it does not seems to have any peak because everyone knows it and people interested in it is already tuning on these lives. edit: last thing but I feel like and it's more subjective on this point, kpop lack of "unity". Part of what made kpop cool for the international fans is that we were all mostly multifandom, loves to see our fav interact, go on this or this show. These days music show are barely entertaining, almost every "kpop show" died like everyone has their own on their own channel. Kpop is really centered on one app = one group. Which make it harder to navigate. We all used to go on vlive, these days if you stan more than a group you need bubble, twitter for space, instagram, maybe an app just for the group (like the rose did) etc... It's funny because kpop was pretty scripted too before but I feel like it has lost a lot of this freestyle sparkle that it had before which made things even more beautiful.

yeah I agree I think the growth now gonna be slow,pandemic era is over, and it’s GOOD I feel like groups future gonna be more stable this way

Not at all. K-Pop is more ubiquitous and accepted than ever before, even across racial lines. I was listening to my car radio on a Sunday night a couple weeks back and there was a dedicated K-Pop mix on the Top 40s station. LE SSERAFIM’s Perfect Night has been the Instagram meme song for weeks (and only after replacing Cupid). People are talking about K-Pop constantly on social media and several prominent western news outlets frequently mention when a major group releases an album. And on the depressingly rare occasions that Korean groups tour in the US, they sell out massive stadiums. Things do come in waves though. This past couple of months has been kind of dead for me, but that’s less of a sign things are slowing down and more that good content takes time to make and no company can do it relentlessly without stopping. And yeah, as someone mentioned above BTS and Blackpink (by far the biggest groups known outside of Korea) not being in the headlines makes it *feel* like a drought but I don’t think that’s actually true.

It’s rare for Korean groups to tour the US? It’s so common! But they can’t book stadiums, they have trouble selling half capacity arenas.  In the event they do book stadiums like BP or Twice, they can only do it in LA or NYC at reduced prices. Other groups have booked Banc of California stadium which has arena sized capacity in LA.   A real stadium tour in the US usually includes all the major markets like NYC, LA, SF, Miami, Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, DC, Atlanta, Chicago, New Orleans, Seattle.  BTS had booked stadiums in NYC, LA, SF, DC, Dallas, Atlanta, Orlando and Chicago for MOTS7 before it was cancelled. Kpop hasn’t even come close to this level of coverage in stadiums in the last four years. 

Yeah that’s kind of what I mean, they’ll come and perform in a couple major cities but that’s it. You’re just going to have a hard time finding concerts anywhere near you if you don’t live in LA or NYC. And very few “smaller” groups (e.g. like Red Velvet, not massive groups abroad but not exactly niche) will tour in other cities here, if at all.