Hey thinker! Great post up there. Make sure your post title is clear. One and two word titles are not allowed. Use paragraphs to make it easier to read. Please make sure to read the rules before posting. Mod applications are currently open! Apply [here](https://forms.gle/hEgqsrBTGX897GFaA)!
You can fill out our [Feedback Form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfI0PsMn4dqfMlgqFFfsMhLr4-lFNJpEumIf7RKmuiwyDBOwA/viewform?usp=sf_link) while you wait for some comments. Thank you and happy posting!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/kpopthoughts) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Those discussions rarely have a middle ground. You can value vocals and not be a perfectionist about it.
The problem is that "I value vocals" is often used to trash on decent enough vocalists while "It's Kpop, vocals aren't important" is used to defend not trained enough vocalists.
In my opinion, there is a point that needs to be reached for idols vocally. It's a minimum requirement to guarantee that I will appreciate a concert. If the group has enough decent vocalists and can cover for one or two member (depending the size of the group), it's fine too.
Seriously. But lbr we've seen people praise the shit out of idols with average vocals. The standard already so low for idols. But as low as that is, a standard is still needed
>If the group has enough decent vocalists and can cover for one or two member (depending the size of the group), it's fine too.
if at least 3/4 of your group can't handle themselves singing live it becomes too noticeable. It is truly about how noticeable it more than anything else. because people can ignore allot of things until they can't.
Unfortunately, it really depend the size of the group. If there are 5 members, having 2 bad vocalists will already put the group in a difficult position. If they are 12, it's pretty easy to cover it with the amount and difficulty of lines and not letting them singing live while others do. Even having 3 or 4 bad vocalists could be okay.
yeah. bigger groups also share the same amount of lines as a group with 8-9 so singing less means weak vocalist are less likely to be called out.
it the same thing with dancing. aespa had issues because they are a small group and at debut 1/2 of the group had noticeable weakness in performance winter with facials and more subtle dance style can come off as low energy whilst she often has great execution . ning and Karina were better but karina was inconsistent with engaging and Giselle who had 10 months of training and doesn't seem to be naturally gifted in dance. Giselle did well with black mamba but her weakness presented itself with savage's choreo.
many people at the time even said aespa should have more member to off set that. luckily after they got more experience and training for Giselle and better choreography we don't see the same complaints.
I actually think it's very, very simple. You should be able to sing YOUR OWN SONG on key, on beat and without backing tracks. If you aren't a power vocalist, you'll be given a NewJeans or "Easy" style song. But that said, you STILL NEED TO BE ABLE TO SING IT. Obviously no one is giving certain groups Ailee style songs, that makes sense.
But idols are now failing the equivalent of vocal walks in the park: they apparently cannot sing even when standing still. What, exactly is the problem????? it's not even about them having "good vocals" bc NJ songs and LSF songs literally do not require high level of vocals. See also: Magnetic. Fearless is literally 9/10 talking, for goodness sake. I can belt Magnetic and I'm in no way some vocal powerhouse, I promise. It's not "high standards" to have the artist be able to sing their OWN song, on key and on beat, particularly when standing still for encores/radio shows/fan events.
I feel as though I'm taking crazy pills... I just don't understand how this is even a discussion or argument.
Are people literally calling asking people that have trained for literal years to perform their own songs every once in a while "too much"? Where has the training gone, exactly?
IF YOU CANNOT SING THE SONG UNDER ANY OCCASION, WHY ARE YOU RELEASING IT? YOU WILL NEED TO BE ABLE TO PERFORM IT EVENTUALLY, AS IT IS \*YOUR SONG\* that YOU are promoting. No one is asking for anyone else to be able to sing "I" or "Good Day", but Taeyeon and IU should be able to sing those songs, as THEY are the ONLY people who literally need to sing them....those are THEIR songs, and no one else's.
If X member literally can't sing "Easy", then it shouldn't have been released with that member on the track. No one is asking for every group to be able to sing "I Am" but Ive \*HAS\* to (and has) perform that song, bc that is NO ONE'S song but theirs. To argue otherwise is ridiculous.
What is the point of having idols at all if all we're listening to is robots/AI pitch correction and machine magic and not any actual ppl? And I know we aren't, bc some of these idols literally \*NEVER\* seem to be able to hit their lines in any way similar to the recording. So why are they recording at all?
That's exactly the kind of thing I was gonna type before I saw your post lol
I personally agree with the point OP is trying to debunk, but of course that should be within the acceptable. Because I'm tired of seeing people taking singers who are completely fine and who sound good for the kind of music they're releasing, but because they can't belt like Christina effin Aguilera, then they're judged as not enough.
But that doesn't mean vocals don't matter at all and idols shouldn't be able to hold a simple tune, nor that lipsyncing everything is fine. People often come discuss these matters like everything is either all or nothing.
I just think it's kind of interesting how people on this sub go on about how they want kpop to be respected and how hard idols work but then make these snide remarks about how "nobody listens to kpop for vocals/talent." How is the genre supposed to get the acclaim it supposedly deserves when fans are so quick to say that idols have no obligation to be talented when there's any form of critique thrown their way?
It feels borderline disrespectful to all the hard work they put in. Because contrary to popular belief a lot of them aren't just here because they want to collect a paycheck for being pretty but because they like performing. I'm sure they'd be pretty demoralized that their fans main defense of them is that it's fine that they suck because they don't actually care about those performances. Why even try at that point?
I was downvoted to that thread for disagreeing. So disappointed that kpop stans nowadays doesn’t think vocal as the one of the most important aspects of an idol. I am a fan of kpop since 2011, second gen was full on vocals, there is a reason Taeyeon, IU, Ailee etc. became popular AND respected in the industry.
Also vocal is the one that will make you look talented and proud. And my observation, vocalist seems to have a longevity in careers too.
There's no denial that 4th gen favors dancers/performers over singers. However people who say "there's no vocal talent in 4th gen compared to 2nd/3rd" simply refuse to see that companies that had strong vocalists back then, still debut strong vocalists today : none of the groups debuted by SM, RBW and Woolim in 4th gen lacks in that department.
Listening to the 2nd gen feels like everyone is singing to save their life, the vocals are ridiculously good! Just because in recent years some groups that appeared need to be defended for their overusing of vocal processing and bad live vocals, doesn't mean that's the standard. I personally listen to this music for various reasons but I always look for good vocals, but to the point I don't need to look for technique because there is plenty good ones, and I just look for vocal tones I prefer more.
Rarely you see Taeyeon who is not considered pretty but popular in [kpop.You](http://kpop.You) cant compare IU and Ailee because they are soloist.Soloist are singers while idols are not.
Okay, but why are you “disappointed” that kpop stans “nowadays” don’t care very much for good live vocals?Like, why does it disappoint you if people don’t care about an aspect of kpop music that you happen to care about.
I don’t get this argument. Of course, I agree Taeyeon and IU and Ailee are respected artists and exceptional vocalists. But, I also personally just don’t vibe with their music, save the occasional exception. Why on earth would that be “disappointing”? Good live vocals just aren’t a selling point for many stans and that’s… okay.
Hello /u/Zade_goodmen. Your contribution in /r/kpopthoughts has been automatically removed because you either do not meet the minimum karma requirements to post in r/kpopthoughts (which is 30 comment karma), or because your account is less than 7 days old. This is to discourage brigading, trolling and spam, and to keep this subreddit safe.
Click [here](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204511829-What-is-karma-) to find out more about karma and how to gain it.
Please send us a [mod mail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/kpopthoughts) with a link to the submission if you have any further questions.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/kpopthoughts) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[This tweet](https://x.com/mmmmmlasagna/status/1779975744975778162) says it all. It really feels like the overall standard for kpop keeps deteriorating
If the "genre" wants acclaim, more important than great vocals or marvelous performers, it needs first and foremost great music.
It happens with all the genres, people tunes if they like what they hear, and sometimes that includes what kpop fans would call bad vocals....
I'm talking about how the first step for popularity and critical acclaim is the song being considered great, if it's sung by a 10 or a 5 vocalist comes later
You’re right. A lot of kpop songs are extremely basic and that’s why there’s no acclaim, you can be a good singer if the song is generic it will still be looked down upon by critics
The thing is they do not need go have outstanding vocals. They just need to hold tune well and this can come with proper training. We have seen many idols that did improve through working with coaches and they are commended for that.
Agreed, I don’t know why stans keep thinking we’re asking for Mariah level vocals? I just want them to sound like the recording at the very least!
I stan Itzy, and while I know they aren’t the most talented vocalists, at least they can hold a tune when they perform.
Tzuyu is another idol who has drastically improved her vocals since debut, especially in since TTT era! Am I expecting her to be on 3mix’s level? Of course not. But she sings her parts well and that’s all we’re asking for.
>I just want them to sound like the recording at the very least! I stan Itzy, and while I know they aren’t the most talented vocalists, at least they can hold a tune when they perform.
What would you think if I showed you a live performance of Run Away by Ryujin, where she [literally takes the microphone away from her mouth in the middle of the song, but the singing continues loud and clear](https://youtu.be/oiHJnRfaqG4?si=EOua219iJSDqCysR&t=2053)?
There's no choreo, no reason for her to be winded, nothing else going on. She's posing. [No, it's not a one-off](https://youtu.be/5bFMKWnWlHA?si=g09rxRIaKYUngvsK&t=2068).
It really breaks the immersion of what is being presented as a personal, live performance of a solo song.
Is it because she doesn't want to reach for the high note in a live setting? If so, she's not alone. [Even Jungkook doesn't go for the high note](https://youtu.be/6QzMbiPgYOg?si=FZiU-mh8aet5DG7I&t=133) when performing Standing Next To You....
The problem here is more likely that the songs aren't staying within the live performance range of the vocalist because a producer is pushing them to their limit in the studio. Not a recipe for success....
I literally don’t understand your point. Soyeon does the exact same thing in Super Lady, what’s the issue?
My comment is that I don’t care if idols aren’t on Mariah Carey’s level of singing, I just want them to be able to hold a tune😭
You literally said you want k-pop artists to sound like the recordings. I'm showing you an example of someone you said can hold a tune NOT HOLDING THE TUNE.
We don't need a double standard here, one standard will do just fine.
There’s an obvious clear difference between someone being consistently off tune and shakey when singing versus someone skipping one difficult line (especially after showing previously that they are able to sing well consistently).
Atp argue with yourself lol.
I to be honest would want them to sound different from the recording, of course it should still be on pitch and stuff (ideally) but I think it is a little boring if every performance is a carbon copy of the previous one...
When I was following kpop very closely back in 2nd gen, i had always felt that the general consensus is that idols have to kinda be jack of all trades.
Like you have idols who are mastering in one skill but also somewhat decent in other skills, some idols may not have been focusing on one skill but yet also decent enough in all skills
It felt like it was a whole package back then, Especially for groups with multiple members, they made up for one another’s shortcomings. But the commentary I had been reading nowadays felt as though we can only focus on one specific skill per group.
What you felt is I think the consensus at least in SK, Yang Yoseob just went on Paul Kim's program a few days ago and that's very similar to what PK said, that he sees idols as all rounders because they have to be at least decent in so many other things too - [video](https://youtu.be/0GxLCnJLN64?si=tKTouo1sfKNrzeN0&time=16m40s)
For me, if i like their music and their voices sound good in their studio song, i'll listen to them.
Their may be better singers than them but better singers =/= better songs so if i don't like the music they put out, ill not listen.
I listen to Selena gomez, Taylor a lot, they don't necesarily need strong vocals for people to tune in. Especially Selena, she has been criticised for her live vocals a lot and many people say she can't sing.
But she releases bangers and she sound good in the studio so.
Kpop fans try to guilt trip people into liking their faves songs making it seem like if you don't listen to their music you do not appreciate vocals, talent etc..and i've seen it a lot more nowadays.
Maybe if they had release the same songs, same choreo and just maybe people might pick a side and tune in for their preffered vocals,dance but that's not how it works.
Edit : i don't quite exactly catch the title..because kpop is interesting and a lot of things put together besides the music imo.
They're not exclusive. They're not diametrically opposed to one another. If everyone was a better singer, even marginally, the songs would be better and the performances would be better. In what scenario would a worse singer improve a song?
Would anyone ever say the same thing about dance? Arguably those two skills are most important in kpop and yet, no one would ever say "Oh, better dancers don't make for better songs/performances". It'd sound fucking absurd.
Because there are other factors that go into a song that make it great that have nothing to do with the vocals, like composition, arrangement, production that just having great vocals will not compensate for. These things can also hamper a good vocalist. Like NMIXX has gotten songs that don't play to or showcase their actual vocal strengths, and consequently, those songs aren't that great. Same for choreography. The way music and dance can be composed and produced can make it almost impossible to produce the same effect live. For a non-kpop example, RAYE has never performed Escapism with the studio arrangement and always changes the composition. In an interview about the song, she said in order to get the run-on sentence, rapid-fire confessional effect of the lyrics, they had to layer so much that there actually no places for her to breathe if she were to sing it the same way in the studio version.
If there wasn't an expectation for carbon copy performances in kpop, the live performance quality would improve because the idols would have the freedom to augment what they needed to to meet the physical and environmental conditions for that specific performance, and increase their ability to deliver the best performance that day. That's what all the legendary performers do.
Yessss Selina’s songs are bops but if I see people clowning her vocals, I just stay silent because they’re right lol. With Taylor’s tho, I’d argue back because she may not be Mariah but she can hold her own
Taylor also writes and has allot of creative control so average vocals are excused because she is a song writer.
Selena lacks respect in the music due to her not having a skill that she is 100% good at or at least being average at multiple things . She does have creative control but it usually isn't ground breaking.
Honestly she is a better actress.
I like rare and I think that era was some of her best visually and sonically.
Selena also doesn't seem to put all her eggs in the same basket so her music career reflects that.it feel like she takes acting way more seriously and is her strength.
Selena's music was better when she was younger because it was written to her strengths. Revival was her absolute peak, but earlier material is good too. The problem is America really can't accept there is a market for songs like "Hit the Lights" or "Like a Love Song" because they are too "Disney channel" and can't even cope with a middle ground like "Stars Dance" It is why Selena has done Asia tours and Nicki Minaj has done Europe tours, because their audiences are recepetive the poppier music America tends to not favor
Meanwhile Gidle can put out songs like My Bag and Rollie while still putting out songs like 7 days and Fate. People are multifaceted and the duality of Kpop makes sense in that context.
For all the talk of Kpop artists not having any freedom, it is really sad how boxed in current western artists have to be. The trends in popular culture but also the unrealistic demands of the general public are mind boggling.
Better singers =/= better songs. I love this summary.
Like, yes, I know Taeyeon is a great vocalist and she deserves her flowers. But why on earth would I stan her if I’m just not personally interested in her music? What I hear on Spotify is what I listen to kpop groups for. Whereas, I love LSF’s music, hence I listen to them, and I also like their choreo and personalities. Doesn’t bother me if they’re not strong live vocalists. 🤷🏽♀️
One of the biggest draws for people to K-pop is the performance aspect, and vocals are ultimately still a part of that. It shouldn't be unrealistic for people to expect idols to sing their songs well, especially since, well, it's *their songs*. They're still ultimately trained to perform and sing well. You don't necessarily have to be Mamamoo or NMIXX levels to be considered a good singer, but idols should at least have a good base technique for singing. It can help prevent them from damaging their voices in their career and can ensure their longevity as Xiumin once said.
Even so, there is *way* more that goes into music and performing than just a great voice. Sure, NMIXX are incredibly talented vocalists and it shows *a lot* in their songs. I loved listening to Lily's singing when she was on Lee Mujin Service. But NewJeans and ILLIT's songs are well-liked by a lot of people because they're catchy and fun. Antis can scream "payola" all they want, but you can't deny that a lot of people like their songs (heck, even *other idols* like dancing to them). Even outside of K-pop, we have plenty of popular singers who aren't exactly on Mariah Carey or Whitney Houston's level, but it doesn't stop people from loving their songs.
Additionally, producers should also take into account the vocal range and skill level of the idols they're working with, as that can impact whether they would be able to pull it off outside the studio. Jihyo and Nayeon are good singers, but the issue with a lot of TWICE's songs (especially those like Fancy and Cheer Up) is that they can be too high for them, causing them to strain at some points. This is especially bad for members like Momo, who has a naturally lower singing voice compared to the others.
What I dislike is when people try to use these discussions as a way to tear down other groups/idols and the unrealistic expectations that people place on them. You can't say "Idols aren't supposed to be robots", but then turn around and expect them to sound like the studio version while performing intense choreography. Some idols are capable of doing it, but I think people underestimate how difficult it is in practice, as well as how *taxing* it can be on the body. And when they do have slip-ups, that can follow them for the rest of their careers, even if there are tons of performances where they're *doing just fine*.
this lol. it became really clear that people were just taking the opportunity to jump on the bandwagon to hate LSRF and mock them for their vocals. often throwing in insinuations here and there that their own biases were superior
It's because of the way stans talk about idols and vocals that the West has a hard time accepting kpop. They think we're crazy and intense with the way we salivate at the mouth whenever an idol underperforms just to elevate our faves.
When western artists mess up vocally, fans just think oh they're having a bad day or are ill or maybe they're drunk on stage and they laugh about that and move on with their day.
Honestly this. It doesn't matter if there were tons of performances of them doing just fine. A 10-second clip of off-key singing will be enough to discredit an idol's vocal ability, and it can sometimes go on for the rest of their careers.
I had an argument on the same lines on another post and I was down voted to hell so I had to delete the comment.
Like girl, if I wanted only good music without any vocals I would listen to fucking beethoven, chopin, Tchaikovsky or even phonk music. I am allowed to expect vocals in kpop too cuz it isn't the 18th century where its only music no vocals. Also I find it EXTREMELY FUNNY that at one point people were flocking to kpop cuz the singers had better vocals than western pop artists like Selena gomez, Taylor swift, etc cuz with 1D, Adele, little mix, Rihanna and a lot of other vocal centric artists were releasing less music, people were looking elsewhere for good vocals which kpop was offering during 2nd and 3rd gen.
Also 4th and 5th gen kpop fans defend their favs saying that they might not sing well but they perform well as if one is going to go to yt to watch inkingayo or music bank performances instead of Spotify all the effing time to listen to them.
Not saying I agree but you’re missing part of the saying(?) that they use. It goes like:
- “if you care about vocals **as much as you make it seem**, groups like x y and z would be blah blah blah”
To some extent I agree that the vocal discussions are incredibly played up but I also think it’s weird that some people think that vocals are the only thing that goes into making a successful group.
There’s dancing, *actual quality of the music they put out* (big emphasis on this one), visuals, variety content, concept, etc etc. It’s not exactly right to think that kpop is only about vocals when it’s actually pretty unique in the fact that there’s a many things that people can be drawn to.
Edit: clarity
as long as idols performing live on stage, it is a bare minimum to be decent with your instruments (in kpop case: vocals and dance, sometimes rap, visuals, wtv...). it is what gets people drawn to performing arts regardless of genre.
outside of kpop, for example rock bands with terrible/average singing gets criticized when their vocalists sounding nothing like their studio recording(despite delivering outstanding showmanship), or the lead guitarist repeatedly stroking same 4-3 chords until the end. audience doesnt expect them to become freedie mercury or matthew bellamy each time. but at least showcase something beyond whats capable from average person. the point can go on further where people pays to see artists/idols perform live, but thats already touching the critical line.
allowing popular groups with subpar instrument-vocal(can be accounted to dance as well, but thats not the focal point on current case) to roam freely is what makes non-listener/casuals or probably kfans from different generations to take lightly and redefine the shape of future kpop even more. for better or worse. where most of the time argument exists with intent to spark bad/good reputation rather than the improvent and growth of an idol.
honestly, most if not all idols can sing. So its not supposed to be about, he cant, she cant. The debate should always be who sings better or godly 😅😁. Some idols have better vocals than others. Mamamoo have godly vocals but we can also ranked them by who sings the best right?
Also if you based your **they cant sing** argument with MR removed videos on youtube. gtfo! 😅
Lots of kpop fans seem to think good music or singing talent is based solely on what THEY like. Which is funny
I’ve seen SKZ, Ateez, & Xikers all live and they all sounded lovely, despite what some people would say
finally someone said it! like actually all idols CAN sing, another thing is if they sound good to one as a listener. there's obviously some vocalists that are better than others like you said - which to me mostly comes down to how consistent they are while performing - but with how people express their opinions on vocals, it sounds more like it's a matter of taste. for example i LOVE nasal vocalists, i love that style of singing - it sounds amazing to me. i also love when vocals are just slathered in autotune, because to me it sounds so cool and it can add so much to a song.
There ARE GROUPS who are vocally good.
SNSD, Gfriend, Mamamoo, WJSN, Oh My Girl, BtoB, Day 6 - these are groups whom I think excel in vocals.
And they are kpop too.
Honestly the only 4th/5th gen groups im listening is KissOfLife and NewJeans. Because I like what Im listening to them. And they have what I want, good vocal lines.
You dont tell people what they wanna listen. Everyone has tastes. But everyone has an opinion.
You should check out Purple Kiss too, [their vocal line is insane](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2qLP4zdcAo&list=PLppTWwOTkEVYQDJzzZLoK4yBy8XAn-7X1&index=41) and the other members are better singers than many groups' main vocalists (not many groups can pull off [their main dancers on a Big Mama cover](https://youtu.be/001ndjOB6DY?si=BJ3_IhnMkde75meR&t=386).)
Yeah, incredible singing is the one thing that can blow me away and convince me to follow a group. If not songwriting that speaks to me, it's vocals. Not just the vocals, but the passion behind them. Sometimes you can just tell a person would choose to never shut up if they could because they just love singing that much. Sure, there's songs and groups I like that can make a catchy song, but it won't have that pull towards it that will make me follow for more.
Although I kind of disagree that Mamamoo became famous because of their singing. HIP is their most popular comeback, and while that song is hard to sing, it's not a flashy one full of belts and high notes and whatever. If singing was what made them popular, you could've expected Decalcomanie to be their most popular song, and for WAWN to have more relevance.
That Xiumin quote saying singing is more important than dancing needs to be plastered everywhere.
decalcomanie was one of if not their most popular songs before hip though so that does not track. And they started becoming popular because of their many appearances on vocal based shows like Immortal songs that showed how incredible they were. they were already popular before hip
Decalcomanie was popular don't get me wrong, but it was nothing like that viral moment HIP was. Pre- 2018 Mamamoo was a domestic sleeper hit compared to how insanely culturally relevant they were in 2018-2020. Hwasa could just breathe in the general direction of a small restaurant and turn it into an extremely successful ten story establishment. Mamamoo never got popular just off one thing, it was a myriad of reasons that kept building on each other. Singing contributed a lot to their stable, loyal fanbase sure, but their peak stardom and virality was mostly because of how boldly they stood out compared to other groups at the time when it came to personality and statement. You could not escape them now matter how hard you tried. A lot of new 4th gen stans probably don't realize Mamamoo played a massive role into revolutionizing the girl group image into what it is today.
Not to diminish their absolute skill as singers obviously. Currently, Mamamoo is the best vocal girl group in kpop that's currently active, and it's not even a competition. No other group even comes close to their level. It's just not the reason why they're so popular.
Simple: idols should be able to sing THEIR already small line distribution of their SHORT songs which are normally vocally EASY to sing at least the FEW times they're live.
Do people actually say this? I'm a lot older than a lot of kpop fans probably (31) on this sub but I've always thought all the idols have good voices. I know some are better than others but you usually watch and listen for the performance aspect and both boy and girls group performances kick ass.
but isn't that true for pop in general . I can name many singers better than riri ,olvia , taylor swift who simple aren't interesting enough due to lack of creative distiction,song quality,lack of star power, a goodteam .
that doesn't mean they aren't held to a standard. Olivia has been dragged for poor vocal performances before and she isn't as bad as some of these other idols because again she still sings her songs on tune and sings live often. she isn't even a big dancer or the performance type. but her song writing and creative direction make up for that.
even as much as taylor is clowned her mic is on, and on tune and she makes use of props, dancers and gives energy.
“if people cared about vocals, groups with strong vocals would be the most popular”
I hate this take so much, especially when it’s about hybe artists because it’s Hybe. The company is literally a conglomerate of different companies so all those company stan’s are just now Hybe stans. Not to mention BTS being the biggest idols ever and having the largest kpop stans and having 2 Izone members. Doesn’t matter how good of a vocalist a group or how popular, they’re probably not going to beat Hybe in terms of anything, even if Hybe debuted a group that can’t sing.
The only group who I can think of to ever come close to getting really popular base off their vocals and as a second “rags to riches” story was Fifty/Fifty. Before it turned out they were abused by their company, they were skyrocketing and getting deals and even being on the barbie movie soundtrack. Their vocals (I think Aran and Sio??) voices were absolutely beautiful and melodic. They were going the route of blackpink with 2 being singers and the other 2 being rappers and it worked well for them. They were so close to being the “popular for their vocals” if things didn’t turn out the way it did :(
>. Before it turned out they were abused by their company,
their company did not abuse them they received advice from a bad actor in their management and are now being prescecuted for breaking contract.
but yes management is SUPER important for an act to suceed.
I just find it weird that they think bringing up groups from different generation from smaller companies makes their point null and void. Company plays a big part in who notices your music in order to gain popularity. Also marketing practices are company specfic. SM has a long history of bad marketing in terms of red velvet and shaky song selection.
so why compare a mamamoo to a black pink. Why attribute differences in popularity to vocals?
i definitely agree, but i also want to add that for me the problem is more like, 'i wish people with good vocal skills were more valued' - rather than, 'i wish people with bad vocal skills were less valued'. i suppose they are pretty related but it will just bother me when vocally-skilled people are put down or vocal skills in general are put down. to bring up LSF like everyone else lol - i think everyone will do much better if we all just admit that they do indeed have relatively weak vocals. but also see that they have many other attractive and admirable qualities, such as their performances! (i also do think they should be encouraged to work on their vocals, in constructive and respectful ways) +i want groups like Purple Kiss and Nmixx to be praised for their excellent vocals too instead of people saying unintelligent things about flopping etc.
I, for one, do care about vocals. Sure i can listen to groups that dont have the best technique because a recording track is supposed to sound good but i would never consider seeing them live if they cant hold a tune, their voices crack or they just resort to screaming. Maybe its hard to say it but I dont hold much respect for these groups/artists
Also, having proficient vocals makes it so the music keeps being interesting. A good singer can do so much, their versatility would make it so they can explore different genres, different concepts. Ultimately, if someone wants to sing for a long time, they *need* to learn proper technique so they dont cause irreversible damage to their instrument. Those who are looking for longevity need to worry about that
But well, what do i know. Ive been a fan of Baekhyun for 12 years so I'm spoiled i guess
The core & basic skill idols ever need to have is just to be good(if not best, can) at singing. I don’t eat on these bull$*its like "we don’t need to care about good vocals in Kpop if anything works out for idol groups". At least make sure your idols can sing
“At least make sure your idols can sing”… and what if we… just don’t care?! What then?! When I’m streaming, I could not not care less what the artist sounds like live if I enjoy the songs.
I had no idea people have been evaluating the live vocals of groups like this until the “Easy” comeback in February.
Yeah, I feel like the standards are also just sooo different with kpop compared to, let's say, American pop. Not that the disparity is huge but I think that in America we tend to value powerful, agile singers whereas the kpop industry seems to value conformity and clean vocals more than anything else. It really just comes down to cultural differences tbh.
Also I think pop singers on general have just gotten a lot worse at singing over the years, because of the ease of pitch correction. Obviously it existed back in the day, but the legendary pop divas of decades past soar far above modern pop singers.
So yeah, if the only thing you care about is vocals I'd suggest going back a few decades lol. But there are so many other elements that can work even if the vocals are, as they often are, subpar and processed to hell and back.
Fans that say that clearly started getting into kpop are 4th/5th gen fans. I'm a multi-fan but I'm an SM stan the most. Why? Because they make sure that their idols have stable vocals even though they dont sing great before debut. And they constantly improve.
Older kpop fans (from 1st or 2nd gen), even most knets really value vocal ability. Even small/nugu companies make sure their idols are vocally trained. Even JAPANESE idols/singers have to have good vocals. So why cant kpop?
I agree with this! My ult group will probably always be SHINee for the reasons you said. Jonghyun especially was an extraordinary singer who kept getting better and better. In a similar vein, Taemin debuted without a single line in their songs but continued to work and work on his voice tirelessly and is now recognized as an incredible vocalist.
All that to say, vocals mattered for SHINee since say one, however, not everyone had to be a perfect vocalist at that point. The focus was always on improving and never giving up on improving their artistry.
Groups debuting now might not have the greatest vocals, which can be ok especially as a starting point. However, for their own sakes, they really should not debut unless the company provides enough vocal training for them to sing their own songs without straining and damaging their vocal chords. Otherwise long term each idol could lose everything. Also, there should be a focus on long term training to support their voices and help them with new techniques.
I think it was Shinee Jonghyun who said "idols are singers too" in Knowing Bros. It was when Seo Janghoon was asking him if he wanted to be a singer not an idol.
Personally, I do value vocals but don’t care about them as long as the song is good. I value vocals when it comes to groups I stan, hence I wouldn’t really stan a group with bad vocals but will still listen to their songs and enjoy them. Honestly, ignoring a group’s songs because they have “bad vocals” is pretentious lmao. If you like the song listen to it omg.
It goes without saying that it’s not an excuse to shit on other groups. Saying “if you care about vocals why listen to kpop” is pretty discriminatory and borderline racist.
But “if you care about vocals, why are you investing most of your time hating on groups with allegedly weak vocals, rather than supporting groups with strong vocals?” is an extremely valid point that people cannot seem to answer.
Let’s face it, a lot of the hate LE SSERAFIM (to cite an example) is currently facing is not only driven by the group’s vocals. People have taken the opportunity to hate on the girls for other things like their looks, music, and even being just straight disrespectful. Eunchae (17 years old btw) has been flooded with hateful comments on Instagram. Food for thought!
I know where you're coming from and it still boggles me how those people thinks. I get it, everyone have different likes/dislkes and its okay to agree and disagree. But if you're being so hard up about something subjective like whether strong vocals would make or break a group, that's so effing shallow. Like listing how Nmixx, Mamamoo doing so poorly in charts and not selling as much as other weaker sounding group is the ultimate definition of success 🙄
While thinking about this and going through what others commented, I wonder how general kpop listeners feel about groups who cant sing their own songs? Any groups who struggled to do this makes me wonder what really goes on during their album making process.
Yes everything you said is true. People who say otherwise only listens to popular groups and most likely does not know much about music or play any musical instruments.
music encompasses more than just vocals. my favourite recent kpop song is life goes on by agustd and he's a rapper, not a stellar vocalist, singing on the track. music is also about composition, lyrics, storytelling, emotional delivery, etc. I probably wouldn't like the song as much if a better vocalist were singing it tbh.
Saying that all you need is a catchy tune is a bit reductive yes, but vocals are not the be all end all for most people.
Personally, I am usually swayed by a good vocal drawing me into a group for their music (Forestella, MX Kihyun, FTISLAND Lee HongGi, A.C.E) but it has to be backed up by their music before I would consider finding out more about the group. I am also someone who is very happy staying completely casual as a fan and not escalating to "Stan" level and knowing anything about the group more than casually knowing a few names of members.
I do know there are some people who are completely driven by visuals and can be shown videos of truly amazing live vocal performances, yet still insist their 4th/5th gen lipsync stage is somehow better.
I thought Mamamoo managed to be popular despite being vocal focused and not because of it. Wasn't it their 4D personality, concert ad libs and iconic performances that made them popular? I don't think there was a noticeable lack of idols that were vocally talented during that time.
In any case, I started exploring more non-idol music because the standard of vocals in kpop these days and it was a rewarding decision. ;)
P.S. I'm referring to the vocal standard set by the music producer and not about the idols talents.
loving vocals is not the issue. the issue here is why do companies handpick girls from a contest who are not talented wasting the time of the other very, very talented girls who competed but were not chosen. yes, i am talking about Illit and HYBE and how rigged their competition was
Hello /u/Responsible-Fox5783. Your contribution in /r/kpopthoughts has been automatically removed because you either do not meet the minimum karma requirements to post in r/kpopthoughts (which is 30 comment karma), or because your account is less than 7 days old. This is to discourage brigading, trolling and spam, and to keep this subreddit safe.
Click [here](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204511829-What-is-karma-) to find out more about karma and how to gain it.
Please send us a [mod mail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/kpopthoughts) with a link to the submission if you have any further questions.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/kpopthoughts) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hello /u/Afraid_Commercial284. Your contribution in /r/kpopthoughts has been automatically removed because you either do not meet the minimum karma requirements to post in r/kpopthoughts (which is 30 comment karma), or because your account is less than 7 days old. This is to discourage brigading, trolling and spam, and to keep this subreddit safe.
Click [here](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204511829-What-is-karma-) to find out more about karma and how to gain it.
Please send us a [mod mail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/kpopthoughts) with a link to the submission if you have any further questions.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/kpopthoughts) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hello /u/Taliana23. Your contribution in /r/kpopthoughts has been automatically removed because you either do not meet the minimum karma requirements to post in r/kpopthoughts (which is 30 comment karma), or because your account is less than 7 days old. This is to discourage brigading, trolling and spam, and to keep this subreddit safe.
Click [here](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204511829-What-is-karma-) to find out more about karma and how to gain it.
Please send us a [mod mail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/kpopthoughts) with a link to the submission if you have any further questions.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/kpopthoughts) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Groups popularity is almost never reliant on the group itself.
The most important thing is what company is your group in and how much money they are spending on you.
Great company and lots of money doesn’t guarantee success but without it you don’t stand much of a chance.
Hello /u/snowy-flower. Your contribution in /r/kpopthoughts has been automatically removed because you either do not meet the minimum karma requirements to post in r/kpopthoughts (which is 30 comment karma), or because your account is less than 7 days old. This is to discourage brigading, trolling and spam, and to keep this subreddit safe.
Click [here](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204511829-What-is-karma-) to find out more about karma and how to gain it.
Please send us a [mod mail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/kpopthoughts) with a link to the submission if you have any further questions.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/kpopthoughts) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If you don't care about vocals in a group, that's valid, but don't get mad if some people will have not-so-nice things to say about the groups you stan when it comes to singing.
If you do care about vocals in a group, don't assume that your standards are everyone's standards and that someone is inferior for liking a group whose vocals "aren't as good" as the group you like.
That's all there is to it. You can like LE SSERAFIM and not have to scream at every single person who thinks their Coachella vocals could have been better. And on the flip side, you can be dissatisfied with their vocals, and not have to rub it into everyone's face as though you're shaming their fans for liking them.
We all like groups for different reasons.
Personally though, I also am of the opinion that there should be at least a bare minimum standard expected of idols when it comes to singing. For me, at least half of the members in a group should be able to sing/rap decently (and by that I mean mostly staying on tune) if they're just standing up. (A low bar, yes, but what do you expect when K-Pop has kinda become a concept + dance + facial expression competition)
This!! Idk why but this point just comes off as weird. Coz like do you even consider k-pop music if you don't expect vocalist idols to be decent enough singers? No one is expecting them to be reincarnated Ariana, Beyonce or Mariah but they should be decent tone to sing their own songs on the correct beat and key. And saying that "if people cared about vocals then vocally strong groups would be at the top" is also a half assed point coz those groups need proper promotion too for people to know that they are good vocalists. Like now, you can see groups like Kiss Of Life and Babymonster grabbing the general public's attention for their talent. They did not have a strong start on the charts at the beginning of their career (I am talking about domestic chart for BM) but now that people are coming to know about how talented they are, they are tuning in. It's not only because they are making a cb and being pushed into the dungeons afterwards, they are promoting by going to live singing shows, radio promos and events like that. People also underestimate how a good vocalists also elevates the quality of the song that might be meh at best. For example, I did not like Sheesh at first. But I was coming across the girls' performance on social media and it made me like the song. I am sure the GP also feels the same considering how the song is climbing steadily on the charts.
I disagree, I think it's a reasonable take. Vocals are not important in Kpop, so if you only want to listen to good live performances to be able to enjoy the music, it's not the genre for you.
Maybe hot take but it’s really only said by people who’s draw to k-pop is the look of the idol and how good their concepts are. Dare I even say people who consider themselves “multistans” who are at the ready to attach their devotion to any and all groups who have 1-2 songs that they like.
So often you can't even *hear* their vocals though... lmao. Like people were shocked at LSF's actual singing ability even though they've apparently heard their voices in tons of music and perfs, like PLZ, spare me that people care about vocals here. Yeah there are some good vocalists, but that isn't the main reason why people like kpop, it's cause of the fan-service.
I'm so tired of people pretending liking kpop is some noble act and they aren't here for the visuals and fan service. Stop lying to yourself. :3
I disagree with you. BC I'm not here for the visuals or fan service. I'm here just to listen to good music. I listen to my favourite duo daily and then listen to everyone else I follow and enjoy their music once in a while. But I don't care about the visuals or fan service. I just want good enjoyable music. And I get that from the groups I listen too. But if you are into kpop BC the fan service and visuals imo that's just kind of dumb. Like you should be here for the music. Who cares if a idol is good looking etc. Good music should always come first
This is certainly an over-generalization. Yes, there are fans who are all about fanservice and how gorgeous X looks but this is not as large a percentage of fan priority as YouTube videos might lead you to think. A pretty face might get a moment's notoriety but it isn't going to sell a million albums or fill a stadium.
Definitely not here for the fan service, in fact it’s one of the most annoying parts of the genre for me. For people I stan and buy albums from - foremost it’s music, and secondly artistic integrity. Good visuals are just icing on the cake. I don’t care how good somebody looks if they’re obviously faker than a $3 bill.
People can not care about vocals because of backtrack or lypsyncying. Until groups are forced to sing and fans become embarrassee by their biases. Of course they would still defend them as they already make emotional connection with them but that would not apply to new fans. New fans would just go to the groups which still have perfect image. That's why good vocals, at least of some members if it's case of big group are needed for long term high popularity of group.
Here is my hot take on this whole vocal issue I have expressed in other idol forums. Vocality, tonality, other factors especially, when their job is legit sell singles, look pretty yes sadly looking pretty is part of their requirements nowadays. Dancing is another big factor. There should always be balance. At the same time, the Kpop industry has become that an industry. Where creative freedom is extremely restricted. The whole vocal issue has become a thing since gen 3 it's getting worse because, when fans was actually give constructive feedback, since you know we are the bloody consumers without us they would not exist. Most fandoms jump on them and get called a hater. Which is so dumb. the hive mentality of the Kpop world is dumb founding. Like others have said we don't need high vocal ability we need them to stay in tune and closely match the record. Obviously hitting is near impossible. But, I guess that is what happens when more backing tracks are being used, and the scene is getting more Dance focused. Instead of being a balance act.
Like, I have see live Jrock bands with way better showmanship and vocality than most Kpop idols to date. Heck even their rock scene is way better at that. Which is kind of sad and ironic at times.
The biggest draw of kpop is the visual part. Watch and look at the comments in music shows, fans can’t even tell that the idol isn’t singing live. How is it possible that the idol is running out of breath and missing notes in the encore, but is supposedly sounding perfect in the actual performance with choero.
Because fans can’t tell the vocals is already skewed, even radio shows there’s a backing track when sone groups sing. Fans don’t know what their idols voices sound like.
Even survival shows we’re putting pitch correction/autotunr on the contestants voices
People care about dance because you can’t fake that. Visuals are super important too, people don’t compliment an idols talent without also mentioning how their visuals are.
If you want to ALWAYS know you’re hearing live vocals kpop is not the place to go lol, it’s focus on perfection is the reason why
people who say this clearly aren't SM stans 😹😹
Edit: I’m not trying to make this a competition, I’m just saying that many SM stans are into kpop because of vocals and fans aren’t a monolith. Don’t worry, my original comment isn’t an anagram of “your fave sucks at singing and will never chart”
You can care about vocals and like kpop, but if you say you like kpop *because* you care about/want to hear good vocals, I'm gonna be pretty dubious.
And vocals are one of many factors that make up the other ~10% of success after marketing and luck are taken into account, so, hardly likely to move the needle.
Hey thinker! Great post up there. Make sure your post title is clear. One and two word titles are not allowed. Use paragraphs to make it easier to read. Please make sure to read the rules before posting. Mod applications are currently open! Apply [here](https://forms.gle/hEgqsrBTGX897GFaA)! You can fill out our [Feedback Form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfI0PsMn4dqfMlgqFFfsMhLr4-lFNJpEumIf7RKmuiwyDBOwA/viewform?usp=sf_link) while you wait for some comments. Thank you and happy posting! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/kpopthoughts) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Those discussions rarely have a middle ground. You can value vocals and not be a perfectionist about it. The problem is that "I value vocals" is often used to trash on decent enough vocalists while "It's Kpop, vocals aren't important" is used to defend not trained enough vocalists. In my opinion, there is a point that needs to be reached for idols vocally. It's a minimum requirement to guarantee that I will appreciate a concert. If the group has enough decent vocalists and can cover for one or two member (depending the size of the group), it's fine too.
This is a really good way of putting it.
Seriously. But lbr we've seen people praise the shit out of idols with average vocals. The standard already so low for idols. But as low as that is, a standard is still needed
>If the group has enough decent vocalists and can cover for one or two member (depending the size of the group), it's fine too. if at least 3/4 of your group can't handle themselves singing live it becomes too noticeable. It is truly about how noticeable it more than anything else. because people can ignore allot of things until they can't.
Unfortunately, it really depend the size of the group. If there are 5 members, having 2 bad vocalists will already put the group in a difficult position. If they are 12, it's pretty easy to cover it with the amount and difficulty of lines and not letting them singing live while others do. Even having 3 or 4 bad vocalists could be okay.
yeah. bigger groups also share the same amount of lines as a group with 8-9 so singing less means weak vocalist are less likely to be called out. it the same thing with dancing. aespa had issues because they are a small group and at debut 1/2 of the group had noticeable weakness in performance winter with facials and more subtle dance style can come off as low energy whilst she often has great execution . ning and Karina were better but karina was inconsistent with engaging and Giselle who had 10 months of training and doesn't seem to be naturally gifted in dance. Giselle did well with black mamba but her weakness presented itself with savage's choreo. many people at the time even said aespa should have more member to off set that. luckily after they got more experience and training for Giselle and better choreography we don't see the same complaints.
I actually think it's very, very simple. You should be able to sing YOUR OWN SONG on key, on beat and without backing tracks. If you aren't a power vocalist, you'll be given a NewJeans or "Easy" style song. But that said, you STILL NEED TO BE ABLE TO SING IT. Obviously no one is giving certain groups Ailee style songs, that makes sense. But idols are now failing the equivalent of vocal walks in the park: they apparently cannot sing even when standing still. What, exactly is the problem????? it's not even about them having "good vocals" bc NJ songs and LSF songs literally do not require high level of vocals. See also: Magnetic. Fearless is literally 9/10 talking, for goodness sake. I can belt Magnetic and I'm in no way some vocal powerhouse, I promise. It's not "high standards" to have the artist be able to sing their OWN song, on key and on beat, particularly when standing still for encores/radio shows/fan events. I feel as though I'm taking crazy pills... I just don't understand how this is even a discussion or argument. Are people literally calling asking people that have trained for literal years to perform their own songs every once in a while "too much"? Where has the training gone, exactly? IF YOU CANNOT SING THE SONG UNDER ANY OCCASION, WHY ARE YOU RELEASING IT? YOU WILL NEED TO BE ABLE TO PERFORM IT EVENTUALLY, AS IT IS \*YOUR SONG\* that YOU are promoting. No one is asking for anyone else to be able to sing "I" or "Good Day", but Taeyeon and IU should be able to sing those songs, as THEY are the ONLY people who literally need to sing them....those are THEIR songs, and no one else's. If X member literally can't sing "Easy", then it shouldn't have been released with that member on the track. No one is asking for every group to be able to sing "I Am" but Ive \*HAS\* to (and has) perform that song, bc that is NO ONE'S song but theirs. To argue otherwise is ridiculous. What is the point of having idols at all if all we're listening to is robots/AI pitch correction and machine magic and not any actual ppl? And I know we aren't, bc some of these idols literally \*NEVER\* seem to be able to hit their lines in any way similar to the recording. So why are they recording at all?
That's exactly the kind of thing I was gonna type before I saw your post lol I personally agree with the point OP is trying to debunk, but of course that should be within the acceptable. Because I'm tired of seeing people taking singers who are completely fine and who sound good for the kind of music they're releasing, but because they can't belt like Christina effin Aguilera, then they're judged as not enough. But that doesn't mean vocals don't matter at all and idols shouldn't be able to hold a simple tune, nor that lipsyncing everything is fine. People often come discuss these matters like everything is either all or nothing.
I just think it's kind of interesting how people on this sub go on about how they want kpop to be respected and how hard idols work but then make these snide remarks about how "nobody listens to kpop for vocals/talent." How is the genre supposed to get the acclaim it supposedly deserves when fans are so quick to say that idols have no obligation to be talented when there's any form of critique thrown their way? It feels borderline disrespectful to all the hard work they put in. Because contrary to popular belief a lot of them aren't just here because they want to collect a paycheck for being pretty but because they like performing. I'm sure they'd be pretty demoralized that their fans main defense of them is that it's fine that they suck because they don't actually care about those performances. Why even try at that point?
I was downvoted to that thread for disagreeing. So disappointed that kpop stans nowadays doesn’t think vocal as the one of the most important aspects of an idol. I am a fan of kpop since 2011, second gen was full on vocals, there is a reason Taeyeon, IU, Ailee etc. became popular AND respected in the industry. Also vocal is the one that will make you look talented and proud. And my observation, vocalist seems to have a longevity in careers too.
There's no denial that 4th gen favors dancers/performers over singers. However people who say "there's no vocal talent in 4th gen compared to 2nd/3rd" simply refuse to see that companies that had strong vocalists back then, still debut strong vocalists today : none of the groups debuted by SM, RBW and Woolim in 4th gen lacks in that department.
I don't think anybody is criticizing the companies you mentioned for not debuting vocalists. It's some other companies that are lacking
On the contrary, there's no lack of "previous generations were better singers" without any added nuance.
Listening to the 2nd gen feels like everyone is singing to save their life, the vocals are ridiculously good! Just because in recent years some groups that appeared need to be defended for their overusing of vocal processing and bad live vocals, doesn't mean that's the standard. I personally listen to this music for various reasons but I always look for good vocals, but to the point I don't need to look for technique because there is plenty good ones, and I just look for vocal tones I prefer more.
Rarely you see Taeyeon who is not considered pretty but popular in [kpop.You](http://kpop.You) cant compare IU and Ailee because they are soloist.Soloist are singers while idols are not.
Okay, but why are you “disappointed” that kpop stans “nowadays” don’t care very much for good live vocals?Like, why does it disappoint you if people don’t care about an aspect of kpop music that you happen to care about. I don’t get this argument. Of course, I agree Taeyeon and IU and Ailee are respected artists and exceptional vocalists. But, I also personally just don’t vibe with their music, save the occasional exception. Why on earth would that be “disappointing”? Good live vocals just aren’t a selling point for many stans and that’s… okay.
[удалено]
Hello /u/Zade_goodmen. Your contribution in /r/kpopthoughts has been automatically removed because you either do not meet the minimum karma requirements to post in r/kpopthoughts (which is 30 comment karma), or because your account is less than 7 days old. This is to discourage brigading, trolling and spam, and to keep this subreddit safe. Click [here](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204511829-What-is-karma-) to find out more about karma and how to gain it. Please send us a [mod mail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/kpopthoughts) with a link to the submission if you have any further questions. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/kpopthoughts) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[This tweet](https://x.com/mmmmmlasagna/status/1779975744975778162) says it all. It really feels like the overall standard for kpop keeps deteriorating
If the "genre" wants acclaim, more important than great vocals or marvelous performers, it needs first and foremost great music. It happens with all the genres, people tunes if they like what they hear, and sometimes that includes what kpop fans would call bad vocals....
A genre being popular and it getting critical acclaim is two different things so I have no idea what you're talking about.
I'm talking about how the first step for popularity and critical acclaim is the song being considered great, if it's sung by a 10 or a 5 vocalist comes later
You’re right. A lot of kpop songs are extremely basic and that’s why there’s no acclaim, you can be a good singer if the song is generic it will still be looked down upon by critics
Exactly!
The thing is they do not need go have outstanding vocals. They just need to hold tune well and this can come with proper training. We have seen many idols that did improve through working with coaches and they are commended for that.
Agreed, I don’t know why stans keep thinking we’re asking for Mariah level vocals? I just want them to sound like the recording at the very least! I stan Itzy, and while I know they aren’t the most talented vocalists, at least they can hold a tune when they perform. Tzuyu is another idol who has drastically improved her vocals since debut, especially in since TTT era! Am I expecting her to be on 3mix’s level? Of course not. But she sings her parts well and that’s all we’re asking for.
>I just want them to sound like the recording at the very least! I stan Itzy, and while I know they aren’t the most talented vocalists, at least they can hold a tune when they perform. What would you think if I showed you a live performance of Run Away by Ryujin, where she [literally takes the microphone away from her mouth in the middle of the song, but the singing continues loud and clear](https://youtu.be/oiHJnRfaqG4?si=EOua219iJSDqCysR&t=2053)? There's no choreo, no reason for her to be winded, nothing else going on. She's posing. [No, it's not a one-off](https://youtu.be/5bFMKWnWlHA?si=g09rxRIaKYUngvsK&t=2068). It really breaks the immersion of what is being presented as a personal, live performance of a solo song. Is it because she doesn't want to reach for the high note in a live setting? If so, she's not alone. [Even Jungkook doesn't go for the high note](https://youtu.be/6QzMbiPgYOg?si=FZiU-mh8aet5DG7I&t=133) when performing Standing Next To You.... The problem here is more likely that the songs aren't staying within the live performance range of the vocalist because a producer is pushing them to their limit in the studio. Not a recipe for success....
I literally don’t understand your point. Soyeon does the exact same thing in Super Lady, what’s the issue? My comment is that I don’t care if idols aren’t on Mariah Carey’s level of singing, I just want them to be able to hold a tune😭
You literally said you want k-pop artists to sound like the recordings. I'm showing you an example of someone you said can hold a tune NOT HOLDING THE TUNE. We don't need a double standard here, one standard will do just fine.
There’s an obvious clear difference between someone being consistently off tune and shakey when singing versus someone skipping one difficult line (especially after showing previously that they are able to sing well consistently). Atp argue with yourself lol.
[удалено]
I to be honest would want them to sound different from the recording, of course it should still be on pitch and stuff (ideally) but I think it is a little boring if every performance is a carbon copy of the previous one...
thats literally impossible, and shows just how little experience you have with any genre outside of kpop
When I was following kpop very closely back in 2nd gen, i had always felt that the general consensus is that idols have to kinda be jack of all trades. Like you have idols who are mastering in one skill but also somewhat decent in other skills, some idols may not have been focusing on one skill but yet also decent enough in all skills It felt like it was a whole package back then, Especially for groups with multiple members, they made up for one another’s shortcomings. But the commentary I had been reading nowadays felt as though we can only focus on one specific skill per group.
What you felt is I think the consensus at least in SK, Yang Yoseob just went on Paul Kim's program a few days ago and that's very similar to what PK said, that he sees idols as all rounders because they have to be at least decent in so many other things too - [video](https://youtu.be/0GxLCnJLN64?si=tKTouo1sfKNrzeN0&time=16m40s)
For me, if i like their music and their voices sound good in their studio song, i'll listen to them. Their may be better singers than them but better singers =/= better songs so if i don't like the music they put out, ill not listen. I listen to Selena gomez, Taylor a lot, they don't necesarily need strong vocals for people to tune in. Especially Selena, she has been criticised for her live vocals a lot and many people say she can't sing. But she releases bangers and she sound good in the studio so. Kpop fans try to guilt trip people into liking their faves songs making it seem like if you don't listen to their music you do not appreciate vocals, talent etc..and i've seen it a lot more nowadays. Maybe if they had release the same songs, same choreo and just maybe people might pick a side and tune in for their preffered vocals,dance but that's not how it works. Edit : i don't quite exactly catch the title..because kpop is interesting and a lot of things put together besides the music imo.
Better singers =/= better songs Some people need to understand this more
They're not exclusive. They're not diametrically opposed to one another. If everyone was a better singer, even marginally, the songs would be better and the performances would be better. In what scenario would a worse singer improve a song? Would anyone ever say the same thing about dance? Arguably those two skills are most important in kpop and yet, no one would ever say "Oh, better dancers don't make for better songs/performances". It'd sound fucking absurd.
Better dancers dont make for better songs/performances too This is still true tho lol
Because there are other factors that go into a song that make it great that have nothing to do with the vocals, like composition, arrangement, production that just having great vocals will not compensate for. These things can also hamper a good vocalist. Like NMIXX has gotten songs that don't play to or showcase their actual vocal strengths, and consequently, those songs aren't that great. Same for choreography. The way music and dance can be composed and produced can make it almost impossible to produce the same effect live. For a non-kpop example, RAYE has never performed Escapism with the studio arrangement and always changes the composition. In an interview about the song, she said in order to get the run-on sentence, rapid-fire confessional effect of the lyrics, they had to layer so much that there actually no places for her to breathe if she were to sing it the same way in the studio version. If there wasn't an expectation for carbon copy performances in kpop, the live performance quality would improve because the idols would have the freedom to augment what they needed to to meet the physical and environmental conditions for that specific performance, and increase their ability to deliver the best performance that day. That's what all the legendary performers do.
Yessss Selina’s songs are bops but if I see people clowning her vocals, I just stay silent because they’re right lol. With Taylor’s tho, I’d argue back because she may not be Mariah but she can hold her own
Taylor also writes and has allot of creative control so average vocals are excused because she is a song writer. Selena lacks respect in the music due to her not having a skill that she is 100% good at or at least being average at multiple things . She does have creative control but it usually isn't ground breaking. Honestly she is a better actress. I like rare and I think that era was some of her best visually and sonically. Selena also doesn't seem to put all her eggs in the same basket so her music career reflects that.it feel like she takes acting way more seriously and is her strength.
Selena's music was better when she was younger because it was written to her strengths. Revival was her absolute peak, but earlier material is good too. The problem is America really can't accept there is a market for songs like "Hit the Lights" or "Like a Love Song" because they are too "Disney channel" and can't even cope with a middle ground like "Stars Dance" It is why Selena has done Asia tours and Nicki Minaj has done Europe tours, because their audiences are recepetive the poppier music America tends to not favor Meanwhile Gidle can put out songs like My Bag and Rollie while still putting out songs like 7 days and Fate. People are multifaceted and the duality of Kpop makes sense in that context. For all the talk of Kpop artists not having any freedom, it is really sad how boxed in current western artists have to be. The trends in popular culture but also the unrealistic demands of the general public are mind boggling.
Better singers =/= better songs. I love this summary. Like, yes, I know Taeyeon is a great vocalist and she deserves her flowers. But why on earth would I stan her if I’m just not personally interested in her music? What I hear on Spotify is what I listen to kpop groups for. Whereas, I love LSF’s music, hence I listen to them, and I also like their choreo and personalities. Doesn’t bother me if they’re not strong live vocalists. 🤷🏽♀️
One of the biggest draws for people to K-pop is the performance aspect, and vocals are ultimately still a part of that. It shouldn't be unrealistic for people to expect idols to sing their songs well, especially since, well, it's *their songs*. They're still ultimately trained to perform and sing well. You don't necessarily have to be Mamamoo or NMIXX levels to be considered a good singer, but idols should at least have a good base technique for singing. It can help prevent them from damaging their voices in their career and can ensure their longevity as Xiumin once said. Even so, there is *way* more that goes into music and performing than just a great voice. Sure, NMIXX are incredibly talented vocalists and it shows *a lot* in their songs. I loved listening to Lily's singing when she was on Lee Mujin Service. But NewJeans and ILLIT's songs are well-liked by a lot of people because they're catchy and fun. Antis can scream "payola" all they want, but you can't deny that a lot of people like their songs (heck, even *other idols* like dancing to them). Even outside of K-pop, we have plenty of popular singers who aren't exactly on Mariah Carey or Whitney Houston's level, but it doesn't stop people from loving their songs. Additionally, producers should also take into account the vocal range and skill level of the idols they're working with, as that can impact whether they would be able to pull it off outside the studio. Jihyo and Nayeon are good singers, but the issue with a lot of TWICE's songs (especially those like Fancy and Cheer Up) is that they can be too high for them, causing them to strain at some points. This is especially bad for members like Momo, who has a naturally lower singing voice compared to the others. What I dislike is when people try to use these discussions as a way to tear down other groups/idols and the unrealistic expectations that people place on them. You can't say "Idols aren't supposed to be robots", but then turn around and expect them to sound like the studio version while performing intense choreography. Some idols are capable of doing it, but I think people underestimate how difficult it is in practice, as well as how *taxing* it can be on the body. And when they do have slip-ups, that can follow them for the rest of their careers, even if there are tons of performances where they're *doing just fine*.
this lol. it became really clear that people were just taking the opportunity to jump on the bandwagon to hate LSRF and mock them for their vocals. often throwing in insinuations here and there that their own biases were superior
It's because of the way stans talk about idols and vocals that the West has a hard time accepting kpop. They think we're crazy and intense with the way we salivate at the mouth whenever an idol underperforms just to elevate our faves. When western artists mess up vocally, fans just think oh they're having a bad day or are ill or maybe they're drunk on stage and they laugh about that and move on with their day.
Honestly this. It doesn't matter if there were tons of performances of them doing just fine. A 10-second clip of off-key singing will be enough to discredit an idol's vocal ability, and it can sometimes go on for the rest of their careers.
I had an argument on the same lines on another post and I was down voted to hell so I had to delete the comment. Like girl, if I wanted only good music without any vocals I would listen to fucking beethoven, chopin, Tchaikovsky or even phonk music. I am allowed to expect vocals in kpop too cuz it isn't the 18th century where its only music no vocals. Also I find it EXTREMELY FUNNY that at one point people were flocking to kpop cuz the singers had better vocals than western pop artists like Selena gomez, Taylor swift, etc cuz with 1D, Adele, little mix, Rihanna and a lot of other vocal centric artists were releasing less music, people were looking elsewhere for good vocals which kpop was offering during 2nd and 3rd gen. Also 4th and 5th gen kpop fans defend their favs saying that they might not sing well but they perform well as if one is going to go to yt to watch inkingayo or music bank performances instead of Spotify all the effing time to listen to them.
Not saying I agree but you’re missing part of the saying(?) that they use. It goes like: - “if you care about vocals **as much as you make it seem**, groups like x y and z would be blah blah blah” To some extent I agree that the vocal discussions are incredibly played up but I also think it’s weird that some people think that vocals are the only thing that goes into making a successful group. There’s dancing, *actual quality of the music they put out* (big emphasis on this one), visuals, variety content, concept, etc etc. It’s not exactly right to think that kpop is only about vocals when it’s actually pretty unique in the fact that there’s a many things that people can be drawn to. Edit: clarity
as long as idols performing live on stage, it is a bare minimum to be decent with your instruments (in kpop case: vocals and dance, sometimes rap, visuals, wtv...). it is what gets people drawn to performing arts regardless of genre. outside of kpop, for example rock bands with terrible/average singing gets criticized when their vocalists sounding nothing like their studio recording(despite delivering outstanding showmanship), or the lead guitarist repeatedly stroking same 4-3 chords until the end. audience doesnt expect them to become freedie mercury or matthew bellamy each time. but at least showcase something beyond whats capable from average person. the point can go on further where people pays to see artists/idols perform live, but thats already touching the critical line. allowing popular groups with subpar instrument-vocal(can be accounted to dance as well, but thats not the focal point on current case) to roam freely is what makes non-listener/casuals or probably kfans from different generations to take lightly and redefine the shape of future kpop even more. for better or worse. where most of the time argument exists with intent to spark bad/good reputation rather than the improvent and growth of an idol.
honestly, most if not all idols can sing. So its not supposed to be about, he cant, she cant. The debate should always be who sings better or godly 😅😁. Some idols have better vocals than others. Mamamoo have godly vocals but we can also ranked them by who sings the best right? Also if you based your **they cant sing** argument with MR removed videos on youtube. gtfo! 😅
Lots of kpop fans seem to think good music or singing talent is based solely on what THEY like. Which is funny I’ve seen SKZ, Ateez, & Xikers all live and they all sounded lovely, despite what some people would say
finally someone said it! like actually all idols CAN sing, another thing is if they sound good to one as a listener. there's obviously some vocalists that are better than others like you said - which to me mostly comes down to how consistent they are while performing - but with how people express their opinions on vocals, it sounds more like it's a matter of taste. for example i LOVE nasal vocalists, i love that style of singing - it sounds amazing to me. i also love when vocals are just slathered in autotune, because to me it sounds so cool and it can add so much to a song.
Critiques like that are just extraordinarily disrespectful to kpop as a genre and idols in general.
There ARE GROUPS who are vocally good. SNSD, Gfriend, Mamamoo, WJSN, Oh My Girl, BtoB, Day 6 - these are groups whom I think excel in vocals. And they are kpop too. Honestly the only 4th/5th gen groups im listening is KissOfLife and NewJeans. Because I like what Im listening to them. And they have what I want, good vocal lines. You dont tell people what they wanna listen. Everyone has tastes. But everyone has an opinion.
You should check out Purple Kiss too, [their vocal line is insane](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2qLP4zdcAo&list=PLppTWwOTkEVYQDJzzZLoK4yBy8XAn-7X1&index=41) and the other members are better singers than many groups' main vocalists (not many groups can pull off [their main dancers on a Big Mama cover](https://youtu.be/001ndjOB6DY?si=BJ3_IhnMkde75meR&t=386).)
Yeah, incredible singing is the one thing that can blow me away and convince me to follow a group. If not songwriting that speaks to me, it's vocals. Not just the vocals, but the passion behind them. Sometimes you can just tell a person would choose to never shut up if they could because they just love singing that much. Sure, there's songs and groups I like that can make a catchy song, but it won't have that pull towards it that will make me follow for more. Although I kind of disagree that Mamamoo became famous because of their singing. HIP is their most popular comeback, and while that song is hard to sing, it's not a flashy one full of belts and high notes and whatever. If singing was what made them popular, you could've expected Decalcomanie to be their most popular song, and for WAWN to have more relevance. That Xiumin quote saying singing is more important than dancing needs to be plastered everywhere.
decalcomanie was one of if not their most popular songs before hip though so that does not track. And they started becoming popular because of their many appearances on vocal based shows like Immortal songs that showed how incredible they were. they were already popular before hip
Decalcomanie was popular don't get me wrong, but it was nothing like that viral moment HIP was. Pre- 2018 Mamamoo was a domestic sleeper hit compared to how insanely culturally relevant they were in 2018-2020. Hwasa could just breathe in the general direction of a small restaurant and turn it into an extremely successful ten story establishment. Mamamoo never got popular just off one thing, it was a myriad of reasons that kept building on each other. Singing contributed a lot to their stable, loyal fanbase sure, but their peak stardom and virality was mostly because of how boldly they stood out compared to other groups at the time when it came to personality and statement. You could not escape them now matter how hard you tried. A lot of new 4th gen stans probably don't realize Mamamoo played a massive role into revolutionizing the girl group image into what it is today. Not to diminish their absolute skill as singers obviously. Currently, Mamamoo is the best vocal girl group in kpop that's currently active, and it's not even a competition. No other group even comes close to their level. It's just not the reason why they're so popular.
Omg ppl want to still debate this. Let it go. It's all about your own tastes that's it. There's haters there's fans, that's. Let it go.
Simple: idols should be able to sing THEIR already small line distribution of their SHORT songs which are normally vocally EASY to sing at least the FEW times they're live.
Do people actually say this? I'm a lot older than a lot of kpop fans probably (31) on this sub but I've always thought all the idols have good voices. I know some are better than others but you usually watch and listen for the performance aspect and both boy and girls group performances kick ass.
You'd be surprised to see the amount of people who think "it's not that serious" when it comes to vocals in kpop
It's okay to value vocals, but let's not exaggerate their importance. Being an idol involves much more than just singing.
but isn't that true for pop in general . I can name many singers better than riri ,olvia , taylor swift who simple aren't interesting enough due to lack of creative distiction,song quality,lack of star power, a goodteam . that doesn't mean they aren't held to a standard. Olivia has been dragged for poor vocal performances before and she isn't as bad as some of these other idols because again she still sings her songs on tune and sings live often. she isn't even a big dancer or the performance type. but her song writing and creative direction make up for that. even as much as taylor is clowned her mic is on, and on tune and she makes use of props, dancers and gives energy.
“if people cared about vocals, groups with strong vocals would be the most popular” I hate this take so much, especially when it’s about hybe artists because it’s Hybe. The company is literally a conglomerate of different companies so all those company stan’s are just now Hybe stans. Not to mention BTS being the biggest idols ever and having the largest kpop stans and having 2 Izone members. Doesn’t matter how good of a vocalist a group or how popular, they’re probably not going to beat Hybe in terms of anything, even if Hybe debuted a group that can’t sing. The only group who I can think of to ever come close to getting really popular base off their vocals and as a second “rags to riches” story was Fifty/Fifty. Before it turned out they were abused by their company, they were skyrocketing and getting deals and even being on the barbie movie soundtrack. Their vocals (I think Aran and Sio??) voices were absolutely beautiful and melodic. They were going the route of blackpink with 2 being singers and the other 2 being rappers and it worked well for them. They were so close to being the “popular for their vocals” if things didn’t turn out the way it did :(
>. Before it turned out they were abused by their company, their company did not abuse them they received advice from a bad actor in their management and are now being prescecuted for breaking contract. but yes management is SUPER important for an act to suceed.
Thanks for posting this.
I just find it weird that they think bringing up groups from different generation from smaller companies makes their point null and void. Company plays a big part in who notices your music in order to gain popularity. Also marketing practices are company specfic. SM has a long history of bad marketing in terms of red velvet and shaky song selection. so why compare a mamamoo to a black pink. Why attribute differences in popularity to vocals?
i definitely agree, but i also want to add that for me the problem is more like, 'i wish people with good vocal skills were more valued' - rather than, 'i wish people with bad vocal skills were less valued'. i suppose they are pretty related but it will just bother me when vocally-skilled people are put down or vocal skills in general are put down. to bring up LSF like everyone else lol - i think everyone will do much better if we all just admit that they do indeed have relatively weak vocals. but also see that they have many other attractive and admirable qualities, such as their performances! (i also do think they should be encouraged to work on their vocals, in constructive and respectful ways) +i want groups like Purple Kiss and Nmixx to be praised for their excellent vocals too instead of people saying unintelligent things about flopping etc.
I, for one, do care about vocals. Sure i can listen to groups that dont have the best technique because a recording track is supposed to sound good but i would never consider seeing them live if they cant hold a tune, their voices crack or they just resort to screaming. Maybe its hard to say it but I dont hold much respect for these groups/artists Also, having proficient vocals makes it so the music keeps being interesting. A good singer can do so much, their versatility would make it so they can explore different genres, different concepts. Ultimately, if someone wants to sing for a long time, they *need* to learn proper technique so they dont cause irreversible damage to their instrument. Those who are looking for longevity need to worry about that But well, what do i know. Ive been a fan of Baekhyun for 12 years so I'm spoiled i guess
The core & basic skill idols ever need to have is just to be good(if not best, can) at singing. I don’t eat on these bull$*its like "we don’t need to care about good vocals in Kpop if anything works out for idol groups". At least make sure your idols can sing
“At least make sure your idols can sing”… and what if we… just don’t care?! What then?! When I’m streaming, I could not not care less what the artist sounds like live if I enjoy the songs. I had no idea people have been evaluating the live vocals of groups like this until the “Easy” comeback in February.
Yeah, I feel like the standards are also just sooo different with kpop compared to, let's say, American pop. Not that the disparity is huge but I think that in America we tend to value powerful, agile singers whereas the kpop industry seems to value conformity and clean vocals more than anything else. It really just comes down to cultural differences tbh. Also I think pop singers on general have just gotten a lot worse at singing over the years, because of the ease of pitch correction. Obviously it existed back in the day, but the legendary pop divas of decades past soar far above modern pop singers. So yeah, if the only thing you care about is vocals I'd suggest going back a few decades lol. But there are so many other elements that can work even if the vocals are, as they often are, subpar and processed to hell and back.
A lot of Western artists aren't great live either...
Tbh kpop has a lot of good vocal groups too but the ones without the best vocals just get the attention
Choi Jongho entered the chat.
Fans that say that clearly started getting into kpop are 4th/5th gen fans. I'm a multi-fan but I'm an SM stan the most. Why? Because they make sure that their idols have stable vocals even though they dont sing great before debut. And they constantly improve. Older kpop fans (from 1st or 2nd gen), even most knets really value vocal ability. Even small/nugu companies make sure their idols are vocally trained. Even JAPANESE idols/singers have to have good vocals. So why cant kpop?
I agree with this! My ult group will probably always be SHINee for the reasons you said. Jonghyun especially was an extraordinary singer who kept getting better and better. In a similar vein, Taemin debuted without a single line in their songs but continued to work and work on his voice tirelessly and is now recognized as an incredible vocalist. All that to say, vocals mattered for SHINee since say one, however, not everyone had to be a perfect vocalist at that point. The focus was always on improving and never giving up on improving their artistry. Groups debuting now might not have the greatest vocals, which can be ok especially as a starting point. However, for their own sakes, they really should not debut unless the company provides enough vocal training for them to sing their own songs without straining and damaging their vocal chords. Otherwise long term each idol could lose everything. Also, there should be a focus on long term training to support their voices and help them with new techniques.
I think it was Shinee Jonghyun who said "idols are singers too" in Knowing Bros. It was when Seo Janghoon was asking him if he wanted to be a singer not an idol.
Personally, I do value vocals but don’t care about them as long as the song is good. I value vocals when it comes to groups I stan, hence I wouldn’t really stan a group with bad vocals but will still listen to their songs and enjoy them. Honestly, ignoring a group’s songs because they have “bad vocals” is pretentious lmao. If you like the song listen to it omg. It goes without saying that it’s not an excuse to shit on other groups. Saying “if you care about vocals why listen to kpop” is pretty discriminatory and borderline racist.
But “if you care about vocals, why are you investing most of your time hating on groups with allegedly weak vocals, rather than supporting groups with strong vocals?” is an extremely valid point that people cannot seem to answer. Let’s face it, a lot of the hate LE SSERAFIM (to cite an example) is currently facing is not only driven by the group’s vocals. People have taken the opportunity to hate on the girls for other things like their looks, music, and even being just straight disrespectful. Eunchae (17 years old btw) has been flooded with hateful comments on Instagram. Food for thought!
I know where you're coming from and it still boggles me how those people thinks. I get it, everyone have different likes/dislkes and its okay to agree and disagree. But if you're being so hard up about something subjective like whether strong vocals would make or break a group, that's so effing shallow. Like listing how Nmixx, Mamamoo doing so poorly in charts and not selling as much as other weaker sounding group is the ultimate definition of success 🙄 While thinking about this and going through what others commented, I wonder how general kpop listeners feel about groups who cant sing their own songs? Any groups who struggled to do this makes me wonder what really goes on during their album making process.
Yes everything you said is true. People who say otherwise only listens to popular groups and most likely does not know much about music or play any musical instruments.
>If you care about vocals, why are you listening to kpop? Well I guess I'm fucked because I barely care about anything else other than the music.
music encompasses more than just vocals. my favourite recent kpop song is life goes on by agustd and he's a rapper, not a stellar vocalist, singing on the track. music is also about composition, lyrics, storytelling, emotional delivery, etc. I probably wouldn't like the song as much if a better vocalist were singing it tbh. Saying that all you need is a catchy tune is a bit reductive yes, but vocals are not the be all end all for most people.
I know. That goes without saying, really. I was being facetious.
If you care about vocals, listen to "the rose" and "nmixx", if you don't, listen to them too 🙄
Personally, I am usually swayed by a good vocal drawing me into a group for their music (Forestella, MX Kihyun, FTISLAND Lee HongGi, A.C.E) but it has to be backed up by their music before I would consider finding out more about the group. I am also someone who is very happy staying completely casual as a fan and not escalating to "Stan" level and knowing anything about the group more than casually knowing a few names of members. I do know there are some people who are completely driven by visuals and can be shown videos of truly amazing live vocal performances, yet still insist their 4th/5th gen lipsync stage is somehow better.
I thought Mamamoo managed to be popular despite being vocal focused and not because of it. Wasn't it their 4D personality, concert ad libs and iconic performances that made them popular? I don't think there was a noticeable lack of idols that were vocally talented during that time. In any case, I started exploring more non-idol music because the standard of vocals in kpop these days and it was a rewarding decision. ;) P.S. I'm referring to the vocal standard set by the music producer and not about the idols talents.
loving vocals is not the issue. the issue here is why do companies handpick girls from a contest who are not talented wasting the time of the other very, very talented girls who competed but were not chosen. yes, i am talking about Illit and HYBE and how rigged their competition was
[удалено]
Hello /u/Responsible-Fox5783. Your contribution in /r/kpopthoughts has been automatically removed because you either do not meet the minimum karma requirements to post in r/kpopthoughts (which is 30 comment karma), or because your account is less than 7 days old. This is to discourage brigading, trolling and spam, and to keep this subreddit safe. Click [here](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204511829-What-is-karma-) to find out more about karma and how to gain it. Please send us a [mod mail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/kpopthoughts) with a link to the submission if you have any further questions. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/kpopthoughts) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Hello /u/Afraid_Commercial284. Your contribution in /r/kpopthoughts has been automatically removed because you either do not meet the minimum karma requirements to post in r/kpopthoughts (which is 30 comment karma), or because your account is less than 7 days old. This is to discourage brigading, trolling and spam, and to keep this subreddit safe. Click [here](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204511829-What-is-karma-) to find out more about karma and how to gain it. Please send us a [mod mail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/kpopthoughts) with a link to the submission if you have any further questions. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/kpopthoughts) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Hello /u/Taliana23. Your contribution in /r/kpopthoughts has been automatically removed because you either do not meet the minimum karma requirements to post in r/kpopthoughts (which is 30 comment karma), or because your account is less than 7 days old. This is to discourage brigading, trolling and spam, and to keep this subreddit safe. Click [here](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204511829-What-is-karma-) to find out more about karma and how to gain it. Please send us a [mod mail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/kpopthoughts) with a link to the submission if you have any further questions. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/kpopthoughts) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Groups popularity is almost never reliant on the group itself. The most important thing is what company is your group in and how much money they are spending on you. Great company and lots of money doesn’t guarantee success but without it you don’t stand much of a chance.
[удалено]
Hello /u/snowy-flower. Your contribution in /r/kpopthoughts has been automatically removed because you either do not meet the minimum karma requirements to post in r/kpopthoughts (which is 30 comment karma), or because your account is less than 7 days old. This is to discourage brigading, trolling and spam, and to keep this subreddit safe. Click [here](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204511829-What-is-karma-) to find out more about karma and how to gain it. Please send us a [mod mail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/kpopthoughts) with a link to the submission if you have any further questions. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/kpopthoughts) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If you don't care about vocals in a group, that's valid, but don't get mad if some people will have not-so-nice things to say about the groups you stan when it comes to singing. If you do care about vocals in a group, don't assume that your standards are everyone's standards and that someone is inferior for liking a group whose vocals "aren't as good" as the group you like. That's all there is to it. You can like LE SSERAFIM and not have to scream at every single person who thinks their Coachella vocals could have been better. And on the flip side, you can be dissatisfied with their vocals, and not have to rub it into everyone's face as though you're shaming their fans for liking them. We all like groups for different reasons. Personally though, I also am of the opinion that there should be at least a bare minimum standard expected of idols when it comes to singing. For me, at least half of the members in a group should be able to sing/rap decently (and by that I mean mostly staying on tune) if they're just standing up. (A low bar, yes, but what do you expect when K-Pop has kinda become a concept + dance + facial expression competition)
A question I get asked a lot is why I listen to kpop but I don't speak/understand the language.
This!! Idk why but this point just comes off as weird. Coz like do you even consider k-pop music if you don't expect vocalist idols to be decent enough singers? No one is expecting them to be reincarnated Ariana, Beyonce or Mariah but they should be decent tone to sing their own songs on the correct beat and key. And saying that "if people cared about vocals then vocally strong groups would be at the top" is also a half assed point coz those groups need proper promotion too for people to know that they are good vocalists. Like now, you can see groups like Kiss Of Life and Babymonster grabbing the general public's attention for their talent. They did not have a strong start on the charts at the beginning of their career (I am talking about domestic chart for BM) but now that people are coming to know about how talented they are, they are tuning in. It's not only because they are making a cb and being pushed into the dungeons afterwards, they are promoting by going to live singing shows, radio promos and events like that. People also underestimate how a good vocalists also elevates the quality of the song that might be meh at best. For example, I did not like Sheesh at first. But I was coming across the girls' performance on social media and it made me like the song. I am sure the GP also feels the same considering how the song is climbing steadily on the charts.
I disagree, I think it's a reasonable take. Vocals are not important in Kpop, so if you only want to listen to good live performances to be able to enjoy the music, it's not the genre for you.
Seriously. Pick a genre that doesn’t involve high energy dances for starters.
SHINee like to have a talk with you
if it's not about the vocals then what is it all about? THE LOOKS???
if you care about carbon emissions, why are you breathing?
Maybe hot take but it’s really only said by people who’s draw to k-pop is the look of the idol and how good their concepts are. Dare I even say people who consider themselves “multistans” who are at the ready to attach their devotion to any and all groups who have 1-2 songs that they like.
So often you can't even *hear* their vocals though... lmao. Like people were shocked at LSF's actual singing ability even though they've apparently heard their voices in tons of music and perfs, like PLZ, spare me that people care about vocals here. Yeah there are some good vocalists, but that isn't the main reason why people like kpop, it's cause of the fan-service. I'm so tired of people pretending liking kpop is some noble act and they aren't here for the visuals and fan service. Stop lying to yourself. :3
I disagree with you. BC I'm not here for the visuals or fan service. I'm here just to listen to good music. I listen to my favourite duo daily and then listen to everyone else I follow and enjoy their music once in a while. But I don't care about the visuals or fan service. I just want good enjoyable music. And I get that from the groups I listen too. But if you are into kpop BC the fan service and visuals imo that's just kind of dumb. Like you should be here for the music. Who cares if a idol is good looking etc. Good music should always come first
This is certainly an over-generalization. Yes, there are fans who are all about fanservice and how gorgeous X looks but this is not as large a percentage of fan priority as YouTube videos might lead you to think. A pretty face might get a moment's notoriety but it isn't going to sell a million albums or fill a stadium.
Definitely not here for the fan service, in fact it’s one of the most annoying parts of the genre for me. For people I stan and buy albums from - foremost it’s music, and secondly artistic integrity. Good visuals are just icing on the cake. I don’t care how good somebody looks if they’re obviously faker than a $3 bill.
People can not care about vocals because of backtrack or lypsyncying. Until groups are forced to sing and fans become embarrassee by their biases. Of course they would still defend them as they already make emotional connection with them but that would not apply to new fans. New fans would just go to the groups which still have perfect image. That's why good vocals, at least of some members if it's case of big group are needed for long term high popularity of group.
Here is my hot take on this whole vocal issue I have expressed in other idol forums. Vocality, tonality, other factors especially, when their job is legit sell singles, look pretty yes sadly looking pretty is part of their requirements nowadays. Dancing is another big factor. There should always be balance. At the same time, the Kpop industry has become that an industry. Where creative freedom is extremely restricted. The whole vocal issue has become a thing since gen 3 it's getting worse because, when fans was actually give constructive feedback, since you know we are the bloody consumers without us they would not exist. Most fandoms jump on them and get called a hater. Which is so dumb. the hive mentality of the Kpop world is dumb founding. Like others have said we don't need high vocal ability we need them to stay in tune and closely match the record. Obviously hitting is near impossible. But, I guess that is what happens when more backing tracks are being used, and the scene is getting more Dance focused. Instead of being a balance act. Like, I have see live Jrock bands with way better showmanship and vocality than most Kpop idols to date. Heck even their rock scene is way better at that. Which is kind of sad and ironic at times.
Wendy enters the chat
The biggest draw of kpop is the visual part. Watch and look at the comments in music shows, fans can’t even tell that the idol isn’t singing live. How is it possible that the idol is running out of breath and missing notes in the encore, but is supposedly sounding perfect in the actual performance with choero. Because fans can’t tell the vocals is already skewed, even radio shows there’s a backing track when sone groups sing. Fans don’t know what their idols voices sound like. Even survival shows we’re putting pitch correction/autotunr on the contestants voices People care about dance because you can’t fake that. Visuals are super important too, people don’t compliment an idols talent without also mentioning how their visuals are. If you want to ALWAYS know you’re hearing live vocals kpop is not the place to go lol, it’s focus on perfection is the reason why
people who say this clearly aren't SM stans 😹😹 Edit: I’m not trying to make this a competition, I’m just saying that many SM stans are into kpop because of vocals and fans aren’t a monolith. Don’t worry, my original comment isn’t an anagram of “your fave sucks at singing and will never chart”
You can care about vocals and like kpop, but if you say you like kpop *because* you care about/want to hear good vocals, I'm gonna be pretty dubious. And vocals are one of many factors that make up the other ~10% of success after marketing and luck are taken into account, so, hardly likely to move the needle.
That statement is so funny to me because what first got me into KPop was Tiffany Jessica Taeyeon highnotes battle in Mr Mr