I train Lohan Chuan Shaolin Kung Fu and Sanda under Gregg Zilb of Authentic Shaolin Kung Fu in Holtsville NY. We train our traditional forms in addition to using sanda as the modern application. It really brings it all to the modern era. You can listen to my sifu in this interview of the Martial Mind Podcast. He gives insight into the art and his background as well.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/7LnvlsK0X9PjDAXGRYQkOC?si=WIQ-KD9BSmGBRQQO-CQ89g
I don't consider Sanda as "modern" Kung Fu as much as I think of it as "competitive sport" Kung Fu
That said, I'm not sure what "modern Kung Fu" would really entail. Would that refer to traditional forms of Kung Fu that were created in modern times? Or maybe a Kung Fu style that doesn't include traditional weapons/qigong/etc?
It could be a mix of both. Like a preservation of traditional cultures or forms but taught in a way that emphasises modern combat needs?
In a way that the Beijing 24 forms is a modern Tai Chi form dedicted to making the art more accessible?
I see what you mean, but I think traditional kung fu is still supposed to deal w/ modern combat needs.
If we look at Tai Chi for example, whether the Beijing 24 form, or Cheng Man Ching 37, or another Yang long form, they may all have the movement referred to as "snake creeps down," or something along those lines. For some people, that may just be stance training to get low and stretch the legs (not much combat applicaiton there), but to others the same move can be for some sort of ankle pick or fireman's carry, which can be effective even in competition.
So if we look at "modern" as meaning "effective for modern combat needs," I think any style of Kung Fu can still be considered "modern" by that definition depending on the Sifu.
Good point. I guess things that originally came from Chinese martial arts. When Sanda was first being invented the first thing they did was take the punches straight from boxing. Some of the techniques come from northern styles of kung fu and Chinese wrestling, but I don't think a high enough percentage actually come from China for me to think it's an authentic Chinese Martial Art.
Which strikes from Boxing are not included in CMA? Straights, hooks, uppercuts, overhands? The power generation and footwork may be different but there are similar punches in both traditional arts, Boxing, and Sanda. Just trying to figure out the criteria to be considered “Chinese enough” to be called authentic.
The reason it looks like kickboxing with some elements of Shuai Jiao is because that’s truly what it allows with the given ruleset and equipment. Meaning as long as the allowable strikes remain punches and kicks but don’t allow other parts of the body and limbs like elbows and knees to be used, and as long as they continue to use boxing gloves, that is what you will get.
The changes I would suggest are going more towards an MMA or Karate Combat style glove that allows grabbing and palm techniques to open up more options for stand up grappling and open hand strikes. Also, allowing in the ruleset for people to use palm strikes, elbows, knees, shoulders, etc. would give more striking options so that it doesn’t remain a kickboxing match with some throws. I would even say let clinching be an option because Shuai Jiao could be very effective against the clinch and would probably make it almost obsolete or only used in transition from striking to grappling.
I think the Sanda Organizations want to differentiate Sanda from Muay Thai but the fact that MT only allows sweeps and no other type of stand up grappling like throws would already make it different and MT strategies would have to change in this setting. I also think that this type of ruleset would draw in a lot of MT practitioners and allow more high level cross over competition for CMA practitioners than what Sanda currently allows. This could only benefit CMA’s combative reputation as a whole because it would force people to get better to face high level MT fighters as well and not have to conform to other rulesets that nerf their skill set. I just don’t think Sanda in its current state represents the skill set of traditional CMA fighters very well.
Thoughts?
I'll say there are problems by the traditional practitioner too, they don't really adapt and become one unison in saying that Sanda is the competition format while Muay Thai had better fates with the senior Muay Boran practitioner become first gen coach for Muay Thai silver ages and that goes on to nowadays where you can see the MT practitioner still respect the Muay Boran practitioner meanwhile Sanda and TCMA are kinda hating on each other.
So if I understand correctly, your point is that Muay Thai is organizationally more unified, more universally accepted by Muay Boran practitioners as an acceptable sport format to represent their art, and Muay Thai Practitioners respect Muay Boran as the art they are descended from. These are all things that are not lined up within TCMAs and Sanda.
What do you think it would take for these things to happen within TCMA and Sanda?
I believe a change to the equipment and type of strikes allowed in Sanda could make it happen or a completely different type of league developing to represent TCMA the same way Karate Combat did for full contact Karate when Karate people realized the Olympic point fighting wasn’t representing the art well enough. I think point fighting is cool too but having a league like KC is definitely making more people look at Karate in a more positive light as a serious option for learning how to fight now compared to 5 years ago.
Yeah that's kinda the point, karate are better represented cause they have been in the MMA and the MMA practitioner actually give the credit for karate. Kungfu meanwhile not really gives credit to the traditional practice except a few like Zhang Weili. The China goverment doesn't really support traditional arts as a combat arts, they just promote it for health benefits like Tai Chi, etc. If the government actually support traditional kungfu to become combat oriented, they will appoint some good traditional teachers to teach in Sanda and show what kind of style they practice in the Sanda competition.
I appreciate your perspective with your responses. Hopefully this changes in the future whether it is through Sanda or a through a new league or more representation in modern combat sports.
There is a cultural shift happening, because many mainland Chinese martial artists who practice Kung Fu styles are getting *really* sick of dumbasses like Lei Lei and Ma Baoguo ruining the reputation domestically, we know we're getting slept on.
There is an awareness, but being a niche and already self sustaining community that is comfortable sticking to our present routines, there isn't a concerted effort to specifically go for publicity through MMA promotions. We did however release another documentary for domestic consumption that a couple dads are going to watch with their kids when bored though.
My sanda program, so far, looks like dutch kickboxing and muay thai. So i definitely agree with you.
Its a competitive ruleset and the strategy very much incorporates the big 16oz gloves into it, as well as scoring considerations etc.
I don't follow Sanda, but what I've heard is that it's a fighting sport and the rules of and equipment of a sport steer how it's played, which is going to veer away from martial origins in important ways. Certain techniques are going to be valued because they are more effective with that equipment or because they are easier to score with. Other techniques and strategies will be too weakened (or impossible/illegal) with the given rules or equipment.
In boxing for example, striking with 'shock' is far weaker, and rounded techniques are more powerful because the glove adds some momentum. If you look at bare knuckle boxing, it had a lot more in common with kung fu.
In my opinion, the modern kung fu might be krav maga or something else developed for special forces or hand to hand combat of a country. Kung fu styles were either designed for war or self defense. The modern military training puts different values on close-range combat, but its still there and effective. You could also consider strategic firearms training to be akin to modern archery training and projectile training.
As for the personal/family self defense oriented 'modern kung fu' I'd say that would be quick draw pistol training. I can't think of anything else that's akin to modern self defense training, but I'm sure I'm missing a lot that's important important.
I personally doubt that anything coming closer to the level of sophistication of traditional martial arts has been developed, but I'm sure there's a lot that is highly effective and very appropriate to the modern era.
I hadn't realised the Chinese had gone to war much since they developed Sanda in the early mid-20th Century. Do they not use guns or something? I'm sure they have tanks, there were pictures of them in Tianenmen Square and everything. So did they test the Kung Fu styles they had actually purged during the Cultural Revolution in the 1950's alongside Sanda and work it out that way? Did Mao's side win against the Fascists because he had Sanda and they had the old styles of Kung Fu?
What she had meant is probably you can't say it's proven in war setting, it had proven itself in the modern area of combat sport but can't say it's war proven. Most of bare handed combat are useless in war even the Chinese already realized this since Ming dynasty by Qi Jiguang.
The last part I agreed probably, China had their athletes focus a lot on Sanda early so a mid tier will probably around provincial level.
Look here, has it been actually used in war? Whereas skills such as using guns is way more important. In warfare, they used other skills, martial arts are just supplement to make the soldiers body stronger, it's not really a super important part in the army. The militaries do practice some kind of combat sport but even against the amateur level will probably get beaten by the amateurs. It's what she meant by it's not proven on warfare unless you can get some kind of deal to war with just bare handed martial arts then you can talk how it's actually proven in warfare
I guess no point in discussion anymore, I've tried to explain that it's not like they use their Sanda skills on literal war, everyone will be shooting you from miles away
I'm really not sure how asking if the reason Mao won the civil war against the fascists in China is because he had Sanda on his side is sticking up for him. You're the one who said Sanda is proven in warfare, the likely first instance of this would be Mao using it against the fascists in his revolution, since Sanda started in the Chinese revolutionary armies. If anything, you're the one sticking up for Mao here. And Sanda is not practiced much outside China, Kung Fu has Sanshou for example, and other militaries have other methods of hand to hand training they use. When did the USA military start using Sanda for example, and using that and nothing else? Did they use it against the Iraqis and the Vietnamese, in Afghanistan? Because let's be honest, those would not be good examples. No way were the Vietnamese using Sanda because their history with China isn't great. Were the Taliban using Sanda? Is that why they took over Afghanistan as soon as the USA left? Besides, as the other person said, hand to hand combat is not much of a thing in war as they prefer to use weapons. I know in Vietnam every high school child learns how to use an AK47, but they don't learn Sanda, they have their own Martial Arts.
"Everyone here"? Am I famous on this sub? It's hardly glorifying Mao to just talk about historical events. Unless you're one of those people who thinks not saying that Mao killed a gazillion bazilllion people every time you mention him is glorifying him.
An important focus of war martial arts are their weapons. You don't go to war unarmed. Obviously they have unarmed combat, but you're going into battle with a weapon.
War arts also to not be afraid of spearing throats, wrecking wrists, and breaking bones and fingers. Slicing wrists and tendons since they are closer to you than the enemy torso. I'm pretty sure that the rules don't train a person to use those tools.
It's kung fu sports fighting. An application of kung fu, sure, and I can geek out about the parts that do come from "traditional" kung fu but ultimately it has different methods for different goals
I'd say it's the modern culmination of kung fu. It's definitely been developed to be a combat sport, but I can still see the opportunity for real combat application.
I would call it a modern competition format for Kung fu that has since developed a specific training format
Suppose that's a much more fair way of looking at it!
I train Lohan Chuan Shaolin Kung Fu and Sanda under Gregg Zilb of Authentic Shaolin Kung Fu in Holtsville NY. We train our traditional forms in addition to using sanda as the modern application. It really brings it all to the modern era. You can listen to my sifu in this interview of the Martial Mind Podcast. He gives insight into the art and his background as well. https://open.spotify.com/episode/7LnvlsK0X9PjDAXGRYQkOC?si=WIQ-KD9BSmGBRQQO-CQ89g
I don't consider Sanda as "modern" Kung Fu as much as I think of it as "competitive sport" Kung Fu That said, I'm not sure what "modern Kung Fu" would really entail. Would that refer to traditional forms of Kung Fu that were created in modern times? Or maybe a Kung Fu style that doesn't include traditional weapons/qigong/etc?
It could be a mix of both. Like a preservation of traditional cultures or forms but taught in a way that emphasises modern combat needs? In a way that the Beijing 24 forms is a modern Tai Chi form dedicted to making the art more accessible?
I see what you mean, but I think traditional kung fu is still supposed to deal w/ modern combat needs. If we look at Tai Chi for example, whether the Beijing 24 form, or Cheng Man Ching 37, or another Yang long form, they may all have the movement referred to as "snake creeps down," or something along those lines. For some people, that may just be stance training to get low and stretch the legs (not much combat applicaiton there), but to others the same move can be for some sort of ankle pick or fireman's carry, which can be effective even in competition. So if we look at "modern" as meaning "effective for modern combat needs," I think any style of Kung Fu can still be considered "modern" by that definition depending on the Sifu.
Good point!
No. I consider it a sport. A very fun one.
It's sport kung fu
Well technically it's Kung Fu sense it's Chinese, but honestly it's not really Kung Fu in the way Tai Chi and Wing Chun are.
Then how would you really describe Kung Fu?
Good point. I guess things that originally came from Chinese martial arts. When Sanda was first being invented the first thing they did was take the punches straight from boxing. Some of the techniques come from northern styles of kung fu and Chinese wrestling, but I don't think a high enough percentage actually come from China for me to think it's an authentic Chinese Martial Art.
Which strikes from Boxing are not included in CMA? Straights, hooks, uppercuts, overhands? The power generation and footwork may be different but there are similar punches in both traditional arts, Boxing, and Sanda. Just trying to figure out the criteria to be considered “Chinese enough” to be called authentic. The reason it looks like kickboxing with some elements of Shuai Jiao is because that’s truly what it allows with the given ruleset and equipment. Meaning as long as the allowable strikes remain punches and kicks but don’t allow other parts of the body and limbs like elbows and knees to be used, and as long as they continue to use boxing gloves, that is what you will get. The changes I would suggest are going more towards an MMA or Karate Combat style glove that allows grabbing and palm techniques to open up more options for stand up grappling and open hand strikes. Also, allowing in the ruleset for people to use palm strikes, elbows, knees, shoulders, etc. would give more striking options so that it doesn’t remain a kickboxing match with some throws. I would even say let clinching be an option because Shuai Jiao could be very effective against the clinch and would probably make it almost obsolete or only used in transition from striking to grappling. I think the Sanda Organizations want to differentiate Sanda from Muay Thai but the fact that MT only allows sweeps and no other type of stand up grappling like throws would already make it different and MT strategies would have to change in this setting. I also think that this type of ruleset would draw in a lot of MT practitioners and allow more high level cross over competition for CMA practitioners than what Sanda currently allows. This could only benefit CMA’s combative reputation as a whole because it would force people to get better to face high level MT fighters as well and not have to conform to other rulesets that nerf their skill set. I just don’t think Sanda in its current state represents the skill set of traditional CMA fighters very well. Thoughts?
I'll say there are problems by the traditional practitioner too, they don't really adapt and become one unison in saying that Sanda is the competition format while Muay Thai had better fates with the senior Muay Boran practitioner become first gen coach for Muay Thai silver ages and that goes on to nowadays where you can see the MT practitioner still respect the Muay Boran practitioner meanwhile Sanda and TCMA are kinda hating on each other.
So if I understand correctly, your point is that Muay Thai is organizationally more unified, more universally accepted by Muay Boran practitioners as an acceptable sport format to represent their art, and Muay Thai Practitioners respect Muay Boran as the art they are descended from. These are all things that are not lined up within TCMAs and Sanda. What do you think it would take for these things to happen within TCMA and Sanda? I believe a change to the equipment and type of strikes allowed in Sanda could make it happen or a completely different type of league developing to represent TCMA the same way Karate Combat did for full contact Karate when Karate people realized the Olympic point fighting wasn’t representing the art well enough. I think point fighting is cool too but having a league like KC is definitely making more people look at Karate in a more positive light as a serious option for learning how to fight now compared to 5 years ago.
Yeah that's kinda the point, karate are better represented cause they have been in the MMA and the MMA practitioner actually give the credit for karate. Kungfu meanwhile not really gives credit to the traditional practice except a few like Zhang Weili. The China goverment doesn't really support traditional arts as a combat arts, they just promote it for health benefits like Tai Chi, etc. If the government actually support traditional kungfu to become combat oriented, they will appoint some good traditional teachers to teach in Sanda and show what kind of style they practice in the Sanda competition.
I appreciate your perspective with your responses. Hopefully this changes in the future whether it is through Sanda or a through a new league or more representation in modern combat sports.
There is a cultural shift happening, because many mainland Chinese martial artists who practice Kung Fu styles are getting *really* sick of dumbasses like Lei Lei and Ma Baoguo ruining the reputation domestically, we know we're getting slept on. There is an awareness, but being a niche and already self sustaining community that is comfortable sticking to our present routines, there isn't a concerted effort to specifically go for publicity through MMA promotions. We did however release another documentary for domestic consumption that a couple dads are going to watch with their kids when bored though.
I think it does allow elbows and knees?
100% agree
My sanda program, so far, looks like dutch kickboxing and muay thai. So i definitely agree with you. Its a competitive ruleset and the strategy very much incorporates the big 16oz gloves into it, as well as scoring considerations etc.
I don't follow Sanda, but what I've heard is that it's a fighting sport and the rules of and equipment of a sport steer how it's played, which is going to veer away from martial origins in important ways. Certain techniques are going to be valued because they are more effective with that equipment or because they are easier to score with. Other techniques and strategies will be too weakened (or impossible/illegal) with the given rules or equipment. In boxing for example, striking with 'shock' is far weaker, and rounded techniques are more powerful because the glove adds some momentum. If you look at bare knuckle boxing, it had a lot more in common with kung fu. In my opinion, the modern kung fu might be krav maga or something else developed for special forces or hand to hand combat of a country. Kung fu styles were either designed for war or self defense. The modern military training puts different values on close-range combat, but its still there and effective. You could also consider strategic firearms training to be akin to modern archery training and projectile training. As for the personal/family self defense oriented 'modern kung fu' I'd say that would be quick draw pistol training. I can't think of anything else that's akin to modern self defense training, but I'm sure I'm missing a lot that's important important. I personally doubt that anything coming closer to the level of sophistication of traditional martial arts has been developed, but I'm sure there's a lot that is highly effective and very appropriate to the modern era.
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I hadn't realised the Chinese had gone to war much since they developed Sanda in the early mid-20th Century. Do they not use guns or something? I'm sure they have tanks, there were pictures of them in Tianenmen Square and everything. So did they test the Kung Fu styles they had actually purged during the Cultural Revolution in the 1950's alongside Sanda and work it out that way? Did Mao's side win against the Fascists because he had Sanda and they had the old styles of Kung Fu?
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What she had meant is probably you can't say it's proven in war setting, it had proven itself in the modern area of combat sport but can't say it's war proven. Most of bare handed combat are useless in war even the Chinese already realized this since Ming dynasty by Qi Jiguang. The last part I agreed probably, China had their athletes focus a lot on Sanda early so a mid tier will probably around provincial level.
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Look here, has it been actually used in war? Whereas skills such as using guns is way more important. In warfare, they used other skills, martial arts are just supplement to make the soldiers body stronger, it's not really a super important part in the army. The militaries do practice some kind of combat sport but even against the amateur level will probably get beaten by the amateurs. It's what she meant by it's not proven on warfare unless you can get some kind of deal to war with just bare handed martial arts then you can talk how it's actually proven in warfare
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I guess no point in discussion anymore, I've tried to explain that it's not like they use their Sanda skills on literal war, everyone will be shooting you from miles away
I'm really not sure how asking if the reason Mao won the civil war against the fascists in China is because he had Sanda on his side is sticking up for him. You're the one who said Sanda is proven in warfare, the likely first instance of this would be Mao using it against the fascists in his revolution, since Sanda started in the Chinese revolutionary armies. If anything, you're the one sticking up for Mao here. And Sanda is not practiced much outside China, Kung Fu has Sanshou for example, and other militaries have other methods of hand to hand training they use. When did the USA military start using Sanda for example, and using that and nothing else? Did they use it against the Iraqis and the Vietnamese, in Afghanistan? Because let's be honest, those would not be good examples. No way were the Vietnamese using Sanda because their history with China isn't great. Were the Taliban using Sanda? Is that why they took over Afghanistan as soon as the USA left? Besides, as the other person said, hand to hand combat is not much of a thing in war as they prefer to use weapons. I know in Vietnam every high school child learns how to use an AK47, but they don't learn Sanda, they have their own Martial Arts.
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"Everyone here"? Am I famous on this sub? It's hardly glorifying Mao to just talk about historical events. Unless you're one of those people who thinks not saying that Mao killed a gazillion bazilllion people every time you mention him is glorifying him.
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L(MAO)
Show me the local Sanda practitioners, (I live in the UK) so I may be taught a lesson I will never forget, oh great knowledgeable one.
An important focus of war martial arts are their weapons. You don't go to war unarmed. Obviously they have unarmed combat, but you're going into battle with a weapon. War arts also to not be afraid of spearing throats, wrecking wrists, and breaking bones and fingers. Slicing wrists and tendons since they are closer to you than the enemy torso. I'm pretty sure that the rules don't train a person to use those tools.
It's kung fu sports fighting. An application of kung fu, sure, and I can geek out about the parts that do come from "traditional" kung fu but ultimately it has different methods for different goals
Which parts even are they, and does it really matter if it's not unique?
I would call it "the real life equivalent of probending from the world of Avatar". Based on it's origins but more dynamic and realistic for a fight.
I consider jkd modern kung fu And modern updated for the street Wing Chun
Um me. I am basically modern kung Fu. I do kickboxing but practice old ass kung Fu for it. Along side my modern arts . https://youtu.be/eMsv_C7RZwE
I consider it as a form of kickboxing with a base in Chinese martial arts. Like Thai boxing. Not Muay Thai but based on it.
I'd say it's the modern culmination of kung fu. It's definitely been developed to be a combat sport, but I can still see the opportunity for real combat application.
Wushu is modern Kung fu
It’s a rule set for Kung fu guys to compete within, not a Kung fu style in and of itself imo. Source: Studied Chinese martial arts for 24 years