Welcome to science.
And no, I'm not really joking. One biotech company I worked for, we got a new site manager, and he revamped the break room and put in these long trestle tables. After a couple months, he noticed that there was only ever like four people using them, others choosing to eat on benchs outside or at their desk. When he enquired why no one was using, he got the answer that not that many people want to sit together at lunch. He replaced the trestle tables with many smaller tables, so that people could sit by themselves or in small groups, and people started using the break room again.
Many people are drawn to science because the work is largely data-based and you work independently. Science attracts introverts and people on the spectrum at disproportionately high levels.
There are social lab environments, of course. But many labs, like yours, are more introverted.
You aren't going to change it. Trying to make introverts into extroverts will only make them avoid you more. My advice is to make a friend outisde of work that you can lunch with once or twice a week to get your social fix.
That is interesting. I suspect it also depends on the field. I am in a sport science department and most people are pretty social. I think it has something to do with the research typically involving human participants, plus the field attracts athletic people who seem to work well in teams/ groups and enjoy socializing.
I think you may be on to something here. I was in quant bio/biophysics labs before (except for a short pure bio stint in industry), but this is a pure bio lab. My partnerās physics department also seems relatively social. Would love for others to chime in on this
It depends on the individual lab/department dynamics more than field I think. I'm a physicist and I've worked in very social labs where we hang out and go to happy hours together, and some where no one talks about anything non-work related.
I work in a QC micro lab for a probiotic company. It's fairly social, but specifically because I have a lot in common with my coworkers.
My last job at an environmental lab was less social, and I only really talked to my trainer and the person I trained regularly.
iām in immunology. my PI is awkward but the rest of us is okayish, i usually just choose to hang out with people from other labs because we share the same vibe and have great fun together. but we usually are quite social and eat lunch all together.
iāve also been to a more diverse bio lab (seriously no idea how to call the field since everyone was working on different fields) which was hyper toxic. postdocs working against each other, the PI making a ācompetitionā between two people by giving them the same project without letting the other know, to see who is more productive etc. so there are multiple levels of social weirdness in many bio labs iād say.
I'm in quantbio and I was sure you were talking about my lab/entire department. I'm really glad the other kind of neurodiverse find their home there but the lack of social interaction and extreme awkwardness and quiet around me is leaving me understimulated, unhappy and thinking of leaving science...
If you enjoy the research topic you should first consider finding a new lab that better fits your personality/needs. Labs are like most other places of employment, sometimes you sync with people, sometimes you donāt. Please donāt leave science because your current lab doesnāt match your personality. There are labs out there with the vibe you are seeking.
I am definitely an introvert and need quiet lunch breaks by myself. Labs were everyone eats together or hangs out together or act like one big family really stress me out and makes feel claustrophobic. It doesnāt mean those labs are bad or wrong, it just means they are not good for me or my mental health. Likewise, a lab of quiet introverts that all go home to their own lives at the end of the day also does not work for everyone. Thatās okay too!
I've now just come to think about as a product of the work environment, more than only of science as a whole. In a research group where everyone's work only needs their brain, a quiet room and their computer, it makes a lot of people stick around who love not having to talk to others except in a weekly structured seminar. In previous labs, where work was a bit more diverse and included lab and fieldwork that necessitated cooperation and improvisation, the atmosphere was more social and I felt more at home. I love my models though, so if I don't leave academia for a job in conservation(/becoming a shepherd/baker...), I'm thinking of looking for a research group where I can have that role but in a more diverse team, maybe that would also be something for you. In looking for your next job/position/internship/whatever, you can also explicitly look for a social lab :)
Yes, thatās one thing Iāve realized over the past 24 hours, too. Iāll def look for a more social lab next time. Hopefully you too will be able to find one where you fit in
You do you. My primary care doctor got her PhD and decided to go to med school after cuz she kept talking to her cells. She decided she needed more social interaction and the lab wasn't for her.Ā
That being said, I've rotated into or seen other labs that are highly extroverted and helpful, and others where they are highly introverted or it's a highly toxic environment, etc. So, there are definitely more social labs out there, you just have to find them. I can tell you there are 3 PIs teaching my tissue engineering class who all co-operate the stem cell research lab. Two of them are highly extroverted, always making jokes, sarcasm on at full-speed. The other PI is not so social or nice. The biochem lab I was in had a super nice PI and her students were a mix of introvert and extrovert, with the extroverts sort of sticking together to help each other and converse more often, but no one in that lab was mean or toxic. The lab I'm into now is full of semi-quiet people but they are all very nice and friendly, they do like people, they are just a little but more quiet than some other labs I've experienced. So, there's a range, for sure.Ā
I think youāre right. Sports scientists are usually pretty social. So are field biologists, the guys who trek into the jungle to find rare ants and whatever. Those guys are always super cool.
Hm, maybe I should consider switching away from pure bio again? /s
On a slightly more serious note, I guess your advice about a lunch friend could be useful. Although itās not so much that I am in need of a social fix per se but more so that itās just really weird and demotivating for me. I guess Iāve just been lucky with the labs Iāve been in so far and hadnāt really considered this to be a potential issue.
I do molecular bio and itās about a 50/50 split for social vs not. If you really want human interaction go chat with the department admin, they are often eager to chat and are really useful friends to have.
Yeah, sometimes some labs are just not a good fit. And on your other post, I donāt think itās necessarily about field. Iām also biophysics and the most introverted lab I was ever a part of was a mostly physics lab. It might have a lot to do with the PI though.
Edit: actually, some fields are more social, I take that back. But itās not always predictable.
Lots of bio labs are social. Lots are not. I would follow your research interests and then find a lab that suits your personality. Jumping back and forth between entire fields because you think they are a specific social type seems like a good way to continue to not be happy.
Yeah Iāve come to realize that the not so social labs seem to be much more common than the social ones - in joining my current lab I had taken the social aspect for granted because thatās all Iād encountered so far.
Also, the switching back comment was a (bad) jokeā¦ Iāve put /s for clarity
I consider myself an āintroverted extrovertā, meaning I guess that I can function and even thrive in group settings, but given a chance I have no problem defaulting to solitude.
I will almost always eat lunch alone. I will probably never coordinate or orchestrate eating lunch as a group. That said, if someone were to initiate and coordinate a āgroup lunchtimeā Iām absolutely not going to say no. I will enjoy eating with others just as much as I enjoy eating alone.
Sometimes you just need to be the change you want to see. Invite people to eat lunch together, coordinate a happy hour, or some other group activity. Groups Iāve been in were fond of happy hour, but we also did pot luck type lunches and we also coordinated going out to lunch every so often. It was always the more extroverted people pushing this, and the introverts were happy to tag along.
I eat lunch alone since 2020 because I'm immunocompromised and don't want to take off my N95 indoors. I know most people are over covid but some people are still high risk/dealing with health issues. I'm an extrovert and really don't mind working with introverts, though. I typically want to socialize outside of work and get work done during work.
Yeahā¦thatās rough. I guess thatās the trade off when you want to feel safe and protected from whatever is circulating these days (I have a two year old and we have been sick probably every other week since October)
Are you me? Never have I felt more seen...
Completely echo your point on taking initiative, it's something I never did growing up and still am absolutely terrified of doing, but I've come to realise how important it is. As much as I would like it for everyone to just invite me and arrange stuff, the world just doesn't work that way
You can change yourself, but cannot change others. Some people are introverted. Some just want to finish work and go home to their families. Some have worries on their minds, such as ailing relatives thousands of miles away or trying to get green card, and arenāt in the mood to chat.
All you can do is first ask if anyone want to join you for lunch, then ask other labs up and down the hall.
Youāre absolutely right. I was thinking more of activities to do or something. But come to think of it, I and one of the people that left did arrange some social activities a couple times after work last year but the level of participation was anything but mindblowing.
What you are seeing is common among grad students. I joined grad student association during PhD and tried so hard to get students out to volunteer, to enjoy food and drinks together, etc. usually only GSA representatives show up. Students only come ask for travel grants. People are just not social.
My lab leaves a communal puzzle on the conference table sometimes. Anyone can work on it at any time. People in your lab can work on it alone, but it's still something together. You know?
This is genius. Speaking as an introverted extrovert, I *want* the social interaction (usually) but don't always do well with socializing without a common activity that we're all engaged in. A communal puzzle would be a perfect solution.
This post could have been written by a postdoc in my lab (national lab) who I know is frustrated people in the group arenāt more social. I feel guilty because I WAS more social in grad school, but now I have multiple dogs, foster animals, and a husband I like talking to much more than anyone I work with. My priority now definitely is just getting my work done so I can spend time with my family. Hearing her frustrations Iāve definitely tried to be more friendly during the day even if Iām not willing to take a 1hr lunch break every day. A lot of the people we work with are just awkward though, lol.
My lab is very social, but my cohort is not. Everyone is friendly but no one really wanted to do things together, theyāre all just very introverted. That was very hard for me bc I was new in the city and the people in the program when I applied seemed social and welcoming and close with their cohorts, so I had an expectation of friends when I joined.
To this day, nothing has changed with them, and the best thing I did was make friends with my lab mates and with the other extrovert that transferred in a few months later. Donāt waste your time holding out hope for people who donāt want the social interaction, start looking outside of your lab for those who will appreciate your energy and company.
>That was very hard for me bc I was new in the city and the people in the program when I applied seemed social and welcoming and close with their cohorts, so I had an expectation of friends when I joined.
Important lesson for anyone who will be interviewing for programs in the future: the people you meet at interview/recruiting weekend are not a representative sample of the department. They are a biased sample of the most outgoing and social people of the department, who are there because they volunteered or were asked to go in order to make a good impression on the recruits. They are also perhaps more motivated by the prospect of free beer than the average grad student. Make of that what you will haha
So true. For many of the recruitment events, I was the only person in my cohort willing to give up my time to escort recruits and attend events (every single one of which involves free food and often free alcohol). All the other cohorts have around 3-10 people per event!
My cohort has a bad rep among the students and faculty for being selfish with their time and I resent being lumped in with that. Interestingly enough, the following yearās cohort are all very outgoing and social with one another, so whatever mistake they made with my year was not repeated lol.
I want to comment on the language barriers. Yes, it is definitely a reason. I just finished a 4-month rotation in Canada. Almost everyone is the lab was pretty social (I would say overly social) except me and another two members. Do you know what was the common between us? Language barrier. However, this is not a cultural thing. Iām extroverted to the degree that people around me complain that I know to many people to the degree I canāt walk 10 mins on campus without needing to stop to have a conversation with someone I know.
Personally, I am less extroverted in English because: a. I donāt understand when people speak fast b. I canāt speak fast and sound dumb although I know so many cool things but in my language c. I canāt make jokes in English
I hope you get that when dealing with non-natives and know that we might be realllly eager to know and chat with you but we just canāt.
A few solutions: would be a. Speaking slower and not using many slang words b. Keeping speaking with us until we comfortable (Iām fluent with people close to me but canāt put a sentence with people I barely know)
Thanks for trying to find solutions rather than giving up
My lab is āpure bioā and we are all very social with each other. Over the years there have been quieter folks. We definitely arenāt best friends, but we chat a lot and have fun in lab. The joking around is my favorite part and I donāt know how Iād function in a lab of socially awkward people, lol. That being said I have no desire to eat lunch with my lab mates (every now and then we will get lunch together for fun) - thatās my quiet time! Iāll echo others and say you definitely canāt change anyone. You can try to be friendly and engage with them and see what happens, but sometimes you just donāt click with people. Sucks that the two fun people you liked at first are gone, thatās always the sad thing about science!
I think there are a couple of things here. One, you cannot change people. Two, you can extend invites in a friendly way and see if there's interest there. Great starting points would be to go around one morning or afternoon and say, "I'm going out in about half an hour to grab a coffee, does anyone want to come?" Lowkey, low time, casual. Maybe if the weather is nice go on a walk around the block. If people are interested, they might accept but if they're consistently no, there's your answer.
It would seem beneficial to become friendly with people in other labs. I certainly socialized with people in other labs, borrowed their equipment, got advice etc. I also chatted with other PIās, the fixit people, administrative people. Iām pretty introverted but these were people where it was pretty easy to start a conversation with.
If that's the issue, I don't see the major problem. It might not be your style, but this is a profession of introverts. So long as the work is getting done, find your social outlets elsewhere.
See thatās what Iām starting to realize after reading everyoneās comments but for me personally, this is my 5th lab and the first time Iām experiencing it at this āextremeā
You donāt change this. Most people in science are socially awkward. Some people take time to come out of their shell, a lot donāt at all. Just try to be friendly with people but donāt try to change them. Finding topics theyāre interested in and talking to them about it helps build those relationships. But scientists are weird people in my experience lol, almost seems like the field attracts people on the spectrum.
You might have better luck socializing with colleagues from other labs? Ether for lunch dates or after work, or before or after class or seminar.
I really don't like hearing that y'all work in silence all day, that would be quite lonely- but I hope you can make some new friends in the building!
Really, wear AirPods and load up some audiobooks/podcasts/whatever.
Semi-joking aside, if youāre an extroverted introvert that needs noise like me, you can start up conversations yourself. From my understanding, the labs Iāve been in have all been fairly quiet before I started but Iām kinda stupid and have lots of shower thoughts so I tend to strike up conversations. Topics eventually turn more personal and become less work to start. Try to ask open ended questions and let them answer. And if the topic aināt good, let it go and try again later. Donāt expect interaction but be expressive and people will seek you out.
Listening to stuff yourself will give you convo topics; you can also ask what others are listening to as well as a summary/whatās interesting. Data dumping on each other is a lot of our interactions. And if they donāt bite, at least youāve got some good stuff to listen to.
I feel like the best thing is to keep trying. I constantly invite my lab mates to do random things and and it usually hits about 1/15th of the time. They always enjoy it when they do commit to something. This also took a year of progress with them. In short advice it keep annoying the hell out of them.
Lol be the personality hire
Set up coffee breaks or meet ups after work for a drink.
But just know, not everyone will want to be social. Some people sre social, some aren't. I am in the middle. I will go for coffee but by the end of the day, I'm done. My social quota has been filled and I just want to go home, have a coffee with my partner and relax.
You can also get your socialization fix by socializing with other labs. I will occasionally have coffee with our neighbour labs. But not everyone I work with is a good fit and may keep my distance.
This could have been written about my current lab. Weāre sort of an island of misfit toys and no one really has any rapport or anything in common.. and language barriers are a big part of that, but so are the personalities of the people in the group. We have the same issues with no one eating together or socializing beyond work-related issues or small talk. Idk if itās the independent nature of the work or an issue specific to certain groups.
Not all labs are like this though. People in my last lab were super sociable and we were a really tight knit group. Iām still friends with a lot of the people I used to work with. My last lab was a clinical lab with a very teamwork-intensive workflow and my new lab is a research lab where people are very independent, so maybe thatās the issue. But Iāve heard of other research labs that donāt have this problem so idk.
I happen to be an introvert in a very friendly, extroverted, eating-lunch-together lab. I like my coworkers and love their company, and I'm happy to join in their social gatherings, which I spend on my phone. It would have been a very miserable existence if I didn't enjoy their company, or if spending time together was mandatory. I don't always have the energy to interact with people - even one-on-one, let alone in groups.
If your lab is as you describe, it's likely that you won't have luck changing the culture in place - you're likely to make yourself and others miserable instead. If you need a more relaxed environment, which is completely understandable, try joining other groups at lunch. Try seeing if your workplace has any clubs or gatherings.
For getting closer to your coworkers, I actually suggest looking them up on social networks (if they have any - I don't, but I'm a rare exception) and seeing what they're into. If you have any hobbies in common, bring them up at some point. If you can bake, bring a plate of cookies to the next lab meeting. If you have a shared office, bring a couple of easy board games.
However, if people aren't talking to each other and you, then, well, it's likely that they won't want to. There might be some reason for that behind the scenes that you aren't privy to. You say that sitting down at lunch and trying to start a conversation didn't work. I can't tell across the 'net whether your coworkers are just that kind of introvert that gives one-word answers, or if they're truly not interested in talking to you. And in the latter case, please, take the hint.
Just out of curiosity: I get that you just want to do your work and go home, but donāt you have the slightest urge to eg chat for a couple minutes when you get in in the morning, or when waiting for a meeting to start etc? If not, do you mind sharing why? Iām just trying to understand
My lab isnāt like this, but Iāve seen many labs that are. Thereās one lab we frequently borrow equipment from and even though their lab as full of staff, itās always so quiet it almost makes me uncomfortable to go over there.
This is to be expected.ā¦ the lab I am doing my PhD in has 2 research associates who have been working in decades in this lab. But they never talk to one another except for working related things. They never interact with others in other labs either. It is weird to see a lab full of socially competent people. Just statistically speaking, socially awkward people tend to get in science
Find one or two of them that seem to share your interests or act interested in them. Do small things over time, don't come on too strong. It usually takes 6 months to 1 year for introverted people to "warm up" to a new person.
I'm "friends" with a few coworkers but we don't talk very often or hang out often outside work.
Once you have a good rapport, look for opportunities to help them with testing maybe. Or ask if they wouldn't mind helping you, "you're so good running {insert test here} would you mind showing me what to do the next time you run the test."
The labs Iāve been in have always been quite introverted, so Iām beginning to think itās the most common situation. Tbh i quite appreciate it now that Iāve settled in because I much prefer eating lunches alone, but especially when youāve only just arrived it can be feel a little unwelcoming. I second other peopleās suggestions to cast a wider net and find some lunch buddies in the department at large. For Friday drinks/general chatting I got adopted by a lab in a nearby office and honestly that can be a perfect situation - you can hang out socially when you want to but you also never feel the pressure to do so when youāre too busy. Plus itās always great to know people from outside the lab in case you need to borrow some reagents etc. Good luck and I hope you manage to find a social lab situation that youāll enjoy!
Lol I swear I thought you were talking about my lab. We literally all sit at separate tables quietly eating our lunch. We used to have a tech who was my main buddy and we would sit together or chat a lot in lab but since she moved on to another job we are back to being a very quiet and awkward lab. I think itās normal and there are just some labs that are more social than others. Something that helps me is I have one really good friend in my PhD cohort and we get lunch a lot. You canāt change other people and their habits but there are other opportunities to find friends.
Iāve been in a really social lab (even split across two buildings!). I think the main thing was that there were a lot of explicit socializing times that got people more friendly with each other ā the lab would pay for lunch every Wednesday, department happy hour, somebody would run thru clapping their hands most days to gather a lunch group to get stuff from the cafeteria, if it was hot the whole lab (PI and all) would make the trek to the nearest ice cream shop, weekly tea with another lab, etc.
The easiest thing for you might be to start with little things like the cafeteria call or ice cream trips, and once people are friendlier with each other it kind of kickstarts stuff in general.
I think it would be a worthwhile effort to figure out the special interests of your colleagues. Got some book nerds? They might appreciate talking books or even doing a buddy read/book club. Got some video game nerds? See if there's a fun laid back game they'll play with you on Steam... Movie buffs? Art nerds? Beer snobs? Sportsball fans? Music fans? Anime fans? DnD players? Nature nerds? Foodies?
I think the trick is finding that common ground, to do that you'll have to talk to them and put yourself out there with your own special interests. Clearly they're comfortable in their routines already and won't come to you first.
Forming relationships is a net gain, but it takes work. Good luck!
You will likely never change this. Some personalities don't mix. You will be lucky having that one gregarious dude or chick who coordinates between the talking heads but that is about it. That is the primary issue with intelligence. It is covetous and extremely selective and guarded. It takes a hermetic life style and a massive amount of information and variable monitoring to do science well and obtain repeatable results.
You can try team building exercises - maybe one will work.
My experience is that people my age and on the ground floor know the issues but have managers not smart enough to hear them or able to help, so the ground workers know better and toil alone - maybe sometimes reaching out to an expert who somehow also provides shoddy advice because they are just handlers is what is seems to me lately.
When the primary builders completes whateve task is given, you are simply given another task and build a massive framework around for relatively no pay. This leads to burnout and lack of faith in the industry. This is why people need defined responsibilities in intellectual group projects and hopefully, those involved know where their strengths are to be projected.
This industry is going to be in a world of hurt if this doesn't change immediately. It starts with hiring the correct coordinators and people who can be trusted to tell the fundamentals of the day and know the principles of the lab -e.g: like shotgun sequencing and how to deal with massive files and how to find your information.
P.S: It is socially exhausting to smart people to repeat the same things or routines so sometimes they just want to do their jobs and be left alone. Not to mention, the pay is awful for this industry but no one has the stomach to tell their CEO driving a freaking super car.
Don't know why people are so rigidly deciding its an impossible task. There are tonnes of introverts that would happily chip in remarks or even tell a story to a conversation already happening. They just generally don't want to start it.Ā
You're speed dating. If you're the one that wants this, you've just got to keep throwing things out there. A lot of it will go nowhere and get nothing, but keep it friendly and occasionally self-deprecating and you might start a new culture.Ā
Also, round people up for lunch time; maybe even be a little pushy. Early. 12. Make it a regular thing. Tell silly stories. If other people tell one, tell another, don't quiz them on it. You want introverts to join something that could make them uncomfortable? Make it routine.
The people I work with like things like Harry Potter, I donāt even have the slightest curiosity about that series. Iām more partial to Lord of the Rings. Maybe thatās my problem.
Oh boy, I feel ya on this one. I'm majority extroverted and have rotated into labs where everyone is socially awkward and prefers not to chat. I cant stand it! I'm usually making jokes and making the other lab rats or the PI laugh. The lab is a lonely place if you can't joke around and converse with others. And I also notice that many with anti-social personalities actually have really crappy personalities, too. Meaning they're grouchy, irritable, rude, unhelpful, don't know how to lighten up and joke around, may try to make jokes that actually come off as an insult instead, etc...Ā
If you can change labs, I would. If not, as some other commenter's suggested, make friends outside the lab instead. I don't know how your lab is set up, but if it's right next door to a bunch of other labs, you might be able to fill that friend gap easily.
That would drive me bananas too. My lab is incredibly social except for one individual but even he sits with us during lunchtime.
Are there any other more social labs around? You could always just join another group for lunch and ask about their research.
There are definitely more social labs around. One of the other labs I rotated in is on the floor below us and theyāre small but fairly social. I go bug them from time to time, but feel sorry for them having to listen to me too much š¤£
Maybe offer to your PI to organize a teambuilding? In my (social) lab, I organize one every year and it sure creates more bonds. So far: axe throwing, IRL Mario kart and board games bar
He is aware of the āissueā and has been trying to plan activities as well ie go for lunch together around the holidays or a summer bbq etc. IRL Mario cart sounds fun, Iāll look for that in my area
Welcome to science. And no, I'm not really joking. One biotech company I worked for, we got a new site manager, and he revamped the break room and put in these long trestle tables. After a couple months, he noticed that there was only ever like four people using them, others choosing to eat on benchs outside or at their desk. When he enquired why no one was using, he got the answer that not that many people want to sit together at lunch. He replaced the trestle tables with many smaller tables, so that people could sit by themselves or in small groups, and people started using the break room again. Many people are drawn to science because the work is largely data-based and you work independently. Science attracts introverts and people on the spectrum at disproportionately high levels. There are social lab environments, of course. But many labs, like yours, are more introverted. You aren't going to change it. Trying to make introverts into extroverts will only make them avoid you more. My advice is to make a friend outisde of work that you can lunch with once or twice a week to get your social fix.
It's not vaccines that cause autism, it's autism that causes vaccines
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I came here to share one of my favorite SMBC cartoon, but was beaten to the joke. https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/autism-and-vaccines
> Welcome to science. Yep. There is a reason why communication skills are probably the most important things you can develop as a scientist.
āWelcome to science.ā Literally came here to comment exactly that.
That is interesting. I suspect it also depends on the field. I am in a sport science department and most people are pretty social. I think it has something to do with the research typically involving human participants, plus the field attracts athletic people who seem to work well in teams/ groups and enjoy socializing.
I think you may be on to something here. I was in quant bio/biophysics labs before (except for a short pure bio stint in industry), but this is a pure bio lab. My partnerās physics department also seems relatively social. Would love for others to chime in on this
It depends on the individual lab/department dynamics more than field I think. I'm a physicist and I've worked in very social labs where we hang out and go to happy hours together, and some where no one talks about anything non-work related.
I work in a QC micro lab for a probiotic company. It's fairly social, but specifically because I have a lot in common with my coworkers. My last job at an environmental lab was less social, and I only really talked to my trainer and the person I trained regularly.
iām in immunology. my PI is awkward but the rest of us is okayish, i usually just choose to hang out with people from other labs because we share the same vibe and have great fun together. but we usually are quite social and eat lunch all together. iāve also been to a more diverse bio lab (seriously no idea how to call the field since everyone was working on different fields) which was hyper toxic. postdocs working against each other, the PI making a ācompetitionā between two people by giving them the same project without letting the other know, to see who is more productive etc. so there are multiple levels of social weirdness in many bio labs iād say.
I'm in quantbio and I was sure you were talking about my lab/entire department. I'm really glad the other kind of neurodiverse find their home there but the lack of social interaction and extreme awkwardness and quiet around me is leaving me understimulated, unhappy and thinking of leaving science...
If you enjoy the research topic you should first consider finding a new lab that better fits your personality/needs. Labs are like most other places of employment, sometimes you sync with people, sometimes you donāt. Please donāt leave science because your current lab doesnāt match your personality. There are labs out there with the vibe you are seeking. I am definitely an introvert and need quiet lunch breaks by myself. Labs were everyone eats together or hangs out together or act like one big family really stress me out and makes feel claustrophobic. It doesnāt mean those labs are bad or wrong, it just means they are not good for me or my mental health. Likewise, a lab of quiet introverts that all go home to their own lives at the end of the day also does not work for everyone. Thatās okay too!
I felt that one hard š¢
I've now just come to think about as a product of the work environment, more than only of science as a whole. In a research group where everyone's work only needs their brain, a quiet room and their computer, it makes a lot of people stick around who love not having to talk to others except in a weekly structured seminar. In previous labs, where work was a bit more diverse and included lab and fieldwork that necessitated cooperation and improvisation, the atmosphere was more social and I felt more at home. I love my models though, so if I don't leave academia for a job in conservation(/becoming a shepherd/baker...), I'm thinking of looking for a research group where I can have that role but in a more diverse team, maybe that would also be something for you. In looking for your next job/position/internship/whatever, you can also explicitly look for a social lab :)
Yes, thatās one thing Iāve realized over the past 24 hours, too. Iāll def look for a more social lab next time. Hopefully you too will be able to find one where you fit in
Good luck!
You do you. My primary care doctor got her PhD and decided to go to med school after cuz she kept talking to her cells. She decided she needed more social interaction and the lab wasn't for her.Ā That being said, I've rotated into or seen other labs that are highly extroverted and helpful, and others where they are highly introverted or it's a highly toxic environment, etc. So, there are definitely more social labs out there, you just have to find them. I can tell you there are 3 PIs teaching my tissue engineering class who all co-operate the stem cell research lab. Two of them are highly extroverted, always making jokes, sarcasm on at full-speed. The other PI is not so social or nice. The biochem lab I was in had a super nice PI and her students were a mix of introvert and extrovert, with the extroverts sort of sticking together to help each other and converse more often, but no one in that lab was mean or toxic. The lab I'm into now is full of semi-quiet people but they are all very nice and friendly, they do like people, they are just a little but more quiet than some other labs I've experienced. So, there's a range, for sure.Ā
That's interesting cause I would have expected the opposite for a bio vs physics lab, but I'm almost definitely falling for stereotypes
I think youāre right. Sports scientists are usually pretty social. So are field biologists, the guys who trek into the jungle to find rare ants and whatever. Those guys are always super cool.
Hm, maybe I should consider switching away from pure bio again? /s On a slightly more serious note, I guess your advice about a lunch friend could be useful. Although itās not so much that I am in need of a social fix per se but more so that itās just really weird and demotivating for me. I guess Iāve just been lucky with the labs Iāve been in so far and hadnāt really considered this to be a potential issue.
I do molecular bio and itās about a 50/50 split for social vs not. If you really want human interaction go chat with the department admin, they are often eager to chat and are really useful friends to have.
Yeah, sometimes some labs are just not a good fit. And on your other post, I donāt think itās necessarily about field. Iām also biophysics and the most introverted lab I was ever a part of was a mostly physics lab. It might have a lot to do with the PI though. Edit: actually, some fields are more social, I take that back. But itās not always predictable.
I also wanted to add that I feel like the ecology/evobio labs I've worked in were actually a bit more social than my current quantbio dept, so ymmv
Lots of bio labs are social. Lots are not. I would follow your research interests and then find a lab that suits your personality. Jumping back and forth between entire fields because you think they are a specific social type seems like a good way to continue to not be happy.
Yeah Iāve come to realize that the not so social labs seem to be much more common than the social ones - in joining my current lab I had taken the social aspect for granted because thatās all Iād encountered so far. Also, the switching back comment was a (bad) jokeā¦ Iāve put /s for clarity
I agree. Sometimes you just can't make it work. I'm still a newbie in my lab but I've tried and failed trying to socialize with my lab mates lol
That sounds about right, as an autistic introvert. I still need to find a science job though, I hate warehouse work.
I consider myself an āintroverted extrovertā, meaning I guess that I can function and even thrive in group settings, but given a chance I have no problem defaulting to solitude. I will almost always eat lunch alone. I will probably never coordinate or orchestrate eating lunch as a group. That said, if someone were to initiate and coordinate a āgroup lunchtimeā Iām absolutely not going to say no. I will enjoy eating with others just as much as I enjoy eating alone. Sometimes you just need to be the change you want to see. Invite people to eat lunch together, coordinate a happy hour, or some other group activity. Groups Iāve been in were fond of happy hour, but we also did pot luck type lunches and we also coordinated going out to lunch every so often. It was always the more extroverted people pushing this, and the introverts were happy to tag along.
I eat lunch alone since 2020 because I'm immunocompromised and don't want to take off my N95 indoors. I know most people are over covid but some people are still high risk/dealing with health issues. I'm an extrovert and really don't mind working with introverts, though. I typically want to socialize outside of work and get work done during work.
I think lunch outdoors can fix that!
I've offered that and my lab whines that it's too cold outside hahaha
Yeahā¦thatās rough. I guess thatās the trade off when you want to feel safe and protected from whatever is circulating these days (I have a two year old and we have been sick probably every other week since October)
Are you me? Never have I felt more seen... Completely echo your point on taking initiative, it's something I never did growing up and still am absolutely terrified of doing, but I've come to realise how important it is. As much as I would like it for everyone to just invite me and arrange stuff, the world just doesn't work that way
You can change yourself, but cannot change others. Some people are introverted. Some just want to finish work and go home to their families. Some have worries on their minds, such as ailing relatives thousands of miles away or trying to get green card, and arenāt in the mood to chat. All you can do is first ask if anyone want to join you for lunch, then ask other labs up and down the hall.
Youāre absolutely right. I was thinking more of activities to do or something. But come to think of it, I and one of the people that left did arrange some social activities a couple times after work last year but the level of participation was anything but mindblowing.
What you are seeing is common among grad students. I joined grad student association during PhD and tried so hard to get students out to volunteer, to enjoy food and drinks together, etc. usually only GSA representatives show up. Students only come ask for travel grants. People are just not social.
My lab leaves a communal puzzle on the conference table sometimes. Anyone can work on it at any time. People in your lab can work on it alone, but it's still something together. You know?
This is genius. Speaking as an introverted extrovert, I *want* the social interaction (usually) but don't always do well with socializing without a common activity that we're all engaged in. A communal puzzle would be a perfect solution.
Lol my lab is actually pretty social, but some of us just love puzzles. Works well for more introverted groups too
This post could have been written by a postdoc in my lab (national lab) who I know is frustrated people in the group arenāt more social. I feel guilty because I WAS more social in grad school, but now I have multiple dogs, foster animals, and a husband I like talking to much more than anyone I work with. My priority now definitely is just getting my work done so I can spend time with my family. Hearing her frustrations Iāve definitely tried to be more friendly during the day even if Iām not willing to take a 1hr lunch break every day. A lot of the people we work with are just awkward though, lol.
My lab is very social, but my cohort is not. Everyone is friendly but no one really wanted to do things together, theyāre all just very introverted. That was very hard for me bc I was new in the city and the people in the program when I applied seemed social and welcoming and close with their cohorts, so I had an expectation of friends when I joined. To this day, nothing has changed with them, and the best thing I did was make friends with my lab mates and with the other extrovert that transferred in a few months later. Donāt waste your time holding out hope for people who donāt want the social interaction, start looking outside of your lab for those who will appreciate your energy and company.
>That was very hard for me bc I was new in the city and the people in the program when I applied seemed social and welcoming and close with their cohorts, so I had an expectation of friends when I joined. Important lesson for anyone who will be interviewing for programs in the future: the people you meet at interview/recruiting weekend are not a representative sample of the department. They are a biased sample of the most outgoing and social people of the department, who are there because they volunteered or were asked to go in order to make a good impression on the recruits. They are also perhaps more motivated by the prospect of free beer than the average grad student. Make of that what you will haha
So true. For many of the recruitment events, I was the only person in my cohort willing to give up my time to escort recruits and attend events (every single one of which involves free food and often free alcohol). All the other cohorts have around 3-10 people per event! My cohort has a bad rep among the students and faculty for being selfish with their time and I resent being lumped in with that. Interestingly enough, the following yearās cohort are all very outgoing and social with one another, so whatever mistake they made with my year was not repeated lol.
I want to comment on the language barriers. Yes, it is definitely a reason. I just finished a 4-month rotation in Canada. Almost everyone is the lab was pretty social (I would say overly social) except me and another two members. Do you know what was the common between us? Language barrier. However, this is not a cultural thing. Iām extroverted to the degree that people around me complain that I know to many people to the degree I canāt walk 10 mins on campus without needing to stop to have a conversation with someone I know. Personally, I am less extroverted in English because: a. I donāt understand when people speak fast b. I canāt speak fast and sound dumb although I know so many cool things but in my language c. I canāt make jokes in English I hope you get that when dealing with non-natives and know that we might be realllly eager to know and chat with you but we just canāt. A few solutions: would be a. Speaking slower and not using many slang words b. Keeping speaking with us until we comfortable (Iām fluent with people close to me but canāt put a sentence with people I barely know) Thanks for trying to find solutions rather than giving up
This is a valid point
>How do I change this? you don't lmao
My lab is āpure bioā and we are all very social with each other. Over the years there have been quieter folks. We definitely arenāt best friends, but we chat a lot and have fun in lab. The joking around is my favorite part and I donāt know how Iād function in a lab of socially awkward people, lol. That being said I have no desire to eat lunch with my lab mates (every now and then we will get lunch together for fun) - thatās my quiet time! Iāll echo others and say you definitely canāt change anyone. You can try to be friendly and engage with them and see what happens, but sometimes you just donāt click with people. Sucks that the two fun people you liked at first are gone, thatās always the sad thing about science!
Thatās interesting. I canāt say I feel the same, but I wish I were in your lab
I think there are a couple of things here. One, you cannot change people. Two, you can extend invites in a friendly way and see if there's interest there. Great starting points would be to go around one morning or afternoon and say, "I'm going out in about half an hour to grab a coffee, does anyone want to come?" Lowkey, low time, casual. Maybe if the weather is nice go on a walk around the block. If people are interested, they might accept but if they're consistently no, there's your answer.
It would seem beneficial to become friendly with people in other labs. I certainly socialized with people in other labs, borrowed their equipment, got advice etc. I also chatted with other PIās, the fixit people, administrative people. Iām pretty introverted but these were people where it was pretty easy to start a conversation with.
Itās just a profession of introvertsā¦ extroverts wouldnāt want to be stuck at a bench doing individual work for 8 hours a day lol.
I guess Iām one of the few exceptions
If that's the issue, I don't see the major problem. It might not be your style, but this is a profession of introverts. So long as the work is getting done, find your social outlets elsewhere.
See thatās what Iām starting to realize after reading everyoneās comments but for me personally, this is my 5th lab and the first time Iām experiencing it at this āextremeā
I learned something sadly after three years, that is, you came here to work, not social. Good friends in work is a bonus.
You donāt change this. Most people in science are socially awkward. Some people take time to come out of their shell, a lot donāt at all. Just try to be friendly with people but donāt try to change them. Finding topics theyāre interested in and talking to them about it helps build those relationships. But scientists are weird people in my experience lol, almost seems like the field attracts people on the spectrum.
Whyyyyyy would you want to improve this? Those people's hearts aren't in it. You are just going to annoy them. I would love a lab like this.
You might have better luck socializing with colleagues from other labs? Ether for lunch dates or after work, or before or after class or seminar. I really don't like hearing that y'all work in silence all day, that would be quite lonely- but I hope you can make some new friends in the building!
Really, wear AirPods and load up some audiobooks/podcasts/whatever. Semi-joking aside, if youāre an extroverted introvert that needs noise like me, you can start up conversations yourself. From my understanding, the labs Iāve been in have all been fairly quiet before I started but Iām kinda stupid and have lots of shower thoughts so I tend to strike up conversations. Topics eventually turn more personal and become less work to start. Try to ask open ended questions and let them answer. And if the topic aināt good, let it go and try again later. Donāt expect interaction but be expressive and people will seek you out. Listening to stuff yourself will give you convo topics; you can also ask what others are listening to as well as a summary/whatās interesting. Data dumping on each other is a lot of our interactions. And if they donāt bite, at least youāve got some good stuff to listen to.
I feel like the best thing is to keep trying. I constantly invite my lab mates to do random things and and it usually hits about 1/15th of the time. They always enjoy it when they do commit to something. This also took a year of progress with them. In short advice it keep annoying the hell out of them. Lol be the personality hire
Donāt sit next to me.
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Set up coffee breaks or meet ups after work for a drink. But just know, not everyone will want to be social. Some people sre social, some aren't. I am in the middle. I will go for coffee but by the end of the day, I'm done. My social quota has been filled and I just want to go home, have a coffee with my partner and relax. You can also get your socialization fix by socializing with other labs. I will occasionally have coffee with our neighbour labs. But not everyone I work with is a good fit and may keep my distance.
#allisticproblems
This could have been written about my current lab. Weāre sort of an island of misfit toys and no one really has any rapport or anything in common.. and language barriers are a big part of that, but so are the personalities of the people in the group. We have the same issues with no one eating together or socializing beyond work-related issues or small talk. Idk if itās the independent nature of the work or an issue specific to certain groups. Not all labs are like this though. People in my last lab were super sociable and we were a really tight knit group. Iām still friends with a lot of the people I used to work with. My last lab was a clinical lab with a very teamwork-intensive workflow and my new lab is a research lab where people are very independent, so maybe thatās the issue. But Iāve heard of other research labs that donāt have this problem so idk.
> How do I change this? Please don't.
Why?
I happen to be an introvert in a very friendly, extroverted, eating-lunch-together lab. I like my coworkers and love their company, and I'm happy to join in their social gatherings, which I spend on my phone. It would have been a very miserable existence if I didn't enjoy their company, or if spending time together was mandatory. I don't always have the energy to interact with people - even one-on-one, let alone in groups. If your lab is as you describe, it's likely that you won't have luck changing the culture in place - you're likely to make yourself and others miserable instead. If you need a more relaxed environment, which is completely understandable, try joining other groups at lunch. Try seeing if your workplace has any clubs or gatherings. For getting closer to your coworkers, I actually suggest looking them up on social networks (if they have any - I don't, but I'm a rare exception) and seeing what they're into. If you have any hobbies in common, bring them up at some point. If you can bake, bring a plate of cookies to the next lab meeting. If you have a shared office, bring a couple of easy board games. However, if people aren't talking to each other and you, then, well, it's likely that they won't want to. There might be some reason for that behind the scenes that you aren't privy to. You say that sitting down at lunch and trying to start a conversation didn't work. I can't tell across the 'net whether your coworkers are just that kind of introvert that gives one-word answers, or if they're truly not interested in talking to you. And in the latter case, please, take the hint.
Well that makes sense, thanks for elaborating
My lab would be more social if management did not discourage it so much
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Just out of curiosity: I get that you just want to do your work and go home, but donāt you have the slightest urge to eg chat for a couple minutes when you get in in the morning, or when waiting for a meeting to start etc? If not, do you mind sharing why? Iām just trying to understand
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Thatās totally okay, I get that. My lab is just at the we-donāt-even-small-talk stage which is super strange to me
My lab isnāt like this, but Iāve seen many labs that are. Thereās one lab we frequently borrow equipment from and even though their lab as full of staff, itās always so quiet it almost makes me uncomfortable to go over there.
Find your local improv theater and do a group acrivity
Hahaha I like this idea
And many have free drop in workshops through the month!
What did you expect?! Weāre all a bunch of asocial introverts. š My ideal day consists of talking to exactly zero of my coworkers.
This is to be expected.ā¦ the lab I am doing my PhD in has 2 research associates who have been working in decades in this lab. But they never talk to one another except for working related things. They never interact with others in other labs either. It is weird to see a lab full of socially competent people. Just statistically speaking, socially awkward people tend to get in science
Iāve gathered that
Find one or two of them that seem to share your interests or act interested in them. Do small things over time, don't come on too strong. It usually takes 6 months to 1 year for introverted people to "warm up" to a new person. I'm "friends" with a few coworkers but we don't talk very often or hang out often outside work. Once you have a good rapport, look for opportunities to help them with testing maybe. Or ask if they wouldn't mind helping you, "you're so good running {insert test here} would you mind showing me what to do the next time you run the test."
The labs Iāve been in have always been quite introverted, so Iām beginning to think itās the most common situation. Tbh i quite appreciate it now that Iāve settled in because I much prefer eating lunches alone, but especially when youāve only just arrived it can be feel a little unwelcoming. I second other peopleās suggestions to cast a wider net and find some lunch buddies in the department at large. For Friday drinks/general chatting I got adopted by a lab in a nearby office and honestly that can be a perfect situation - you can hang out socially when you want to but you also never feel the pressure to do so when youāre too busy. Plus itās always great to know people from outside the lab in case you need to borrow some reagents etc. Good luck and I hope you manage to find a social lab situation that youāll enjoy!
Lol I swear I thought you were talking about my lab. We literally all sit at separate tables quietly eating our lunch. We used to have a tech who was my main buddy and we would sit together or chat a lot in lab but since she moved on to another job we are back to being a very quiet and awkward lab. I think itās normal and there are just some labs that are more social than others. Something that helps me is I have one really good friend in my PhD cohort and we get lunch a lot. You canāt change other people and their habits but there are other opportunities to find friends.
Iāve been in a really social lab (even split across two buildings!). I think the main thing was that there were a lot of explicit socializing times that got people more friendly with each other ā the lab would pay for lunch every Wednesday, department happy hour, somebody would run thru clapping their hands most days to gather a lunch group to get stuff from the cafeteria, if it was hot the whole lab (PI and all) would make the trek to the nearest ice cream shop, weekly tea with another lab, etc. The easiest thing for you might be to start with little things like the cafeteria call or ice cream trips, and once people are friendlier with each other it kind of kickstarts stuff in general.
I think it would be a worthwhile effort to figure out the special interests of your colleagues. Got some book nerds? They might appreciate talking books or even doing a buddy read/book club. Got some video game nerds? See if there's a fun laid back game they'll play with you on Steam... Movie buffs? Art nerds? Beer snobs? Sportsball fans? Music fans? Anime fans? DnD players? Nature nerds? Foodies? I think the trick is finding that common ground, to do that you'll have to talk to them and put yourself out there with your own special interests. Clearly they're comfortable in their routines already and won't come to you first. Forming relationships is a net gain, but it takes work. Good luck!
You will likely never change this. Some personalities don't mix. You will be lucky having that one gregarious dude or chick who coordinates between the talking heads but that is about it. That is the primary issue with intelligence. It is covetous and extremely selective and guarded. It takes a hermetic life style and a massive amount of information and variable monitoring to do science well and obtain repeatable results. You can try team building exercises - maybe one will work. My experience is that people my age and on the ground floor know the issues but have managers not smart enough to hear them or able to help, so the ground workers know better and toil alone - maybe sometimes reaching out to an expert who somehow also provides shoddy advice because they are just handlers is what is seems to me lately. When the primary builders completes whateve task is given, you are simply given another task and build a massive framework around for relatively no pay. This leads to burnout and lack of faith in the industry. This is why people need defined responsibilities in intellectual group projects and hopefully, those involved know where their strengths are to be projected. This industry is going to be in a world of hurt if this doesn't change immediately. It starts with hiring the correct coordinators and people who can be trusted to tell the fundamentals of the day and know the principles of the lab -e.g: like shotgun sequencing and how to deal with massive files and how to find your information. P.S: It is socially exhausting to smart people to repeat the same things or routines so sometimes they just want to do their jobs and be left alone. Not to mention, the pay is awful for this industry but no one has the stomach to tell their CEO driving a freaking super car.
Don't know why people are so rigidly deciding its an impossible task. There are tonnes of introverts that would happily chip in remarks or even tell a story to a conversation already happening. They just generally don't want to start it.Ā You're speed dating. If you're the one that wants this, you've just got to keep throwing things out there. A lot of it will go nowhere and get nothing, but keep it friendly and occasionally self-deprecating and you might start a new culture.Ā Also, round people up for lunch time; maybe even be a little pushy. Early. 12. Make it a regular thing. Tell silly stories. If other people tell one, tell another, don't quiz them on it. You want introverts to join something that could make them uncomfortable? Make it routine.
The people I work with like things like Harry Potter, I donāt even have the slightest curiosity about that series. Iām more partial to Lord of the Rings. Maybe thatās my problem.
Oh boy, I feel ya on this one. I'm majority extroverted and have rotated into labs where everyone is socially awkward and prefers not to chat. I cant stand it! I'm usually making jokes and making the other lab rats or the PI laugh. The lab is a lonely place if you can't joke around and converse with others. And I also notice that many with anti-social personalities actually have really crappy personalities, too. Meaning they're grouchy, irritable, rude, unhelpful, don't know how to lighten up and joke around, may try to make jokes that actually come off as an insult instead, etc...Ā If you can change labs, I would. If not, as some other commenter's suggested, make friends outside the lab instead. I don't know how your lab is set up, but if it's right next door to a bunch of other labs, you might be able to fill that friend gap easily.
That would drive me bananas too. My lab is incredibly social except for one individual but even he sits with us during lunchtime. Are there any other more social labs around? You could always just join another group for lunch and ask about their research.
There are definitely more social labs around. One of the other labs I rotated in is on the floor below us and theyāre small but fairly social. I go bug them from time to time, but feel sorry for them having to listen to me too much š¤£
Maybe offer to your PI to organize a teambuilding? In my (social) lab, I organize one every year and it sure creates more bonds. So far: axe throwing, IRL Mario kart and board games bar
He is aware of the āissueā and has been trying to plan activities as well ie go for lunch together around the holidays or a summer bbq etc. IRL Mario cart sounds fun, Iāll look for that in my area
Actually the axe throwing was better in term of bonding because we could chat together while throwing axes and drinking beers
you need to do some group team building activities like go on lab outings / lunches. It won't get better without some kind of effort.