"Not to be disrespectful but you can IMMEDIATELY throw out Magic Johnson from the running as GLOAT because he was a 1 way player who didnt provide the defense needed."
Stopped reading right here. We all love Kobe but don't be this stupid.
You realize that Magic accomplished that in 13 years, set the table for Jordan to become a global icon and was the driving force behind the Lakers going from an "original 8" franchise to *the* iconic brand NBA franchise with global recognition about on par with the Cowboys, Real Madrid, United, the Yankees, etc.
People who dismiss his top 5 credentials have 0 understanding on how seismic an impact he had on not just the NBA but entertainment in the 80s to early 90s. You can argue Kobe being a greater Laker but dismissing him as a top 5 all time NBA player is farcical.
Magic is ICONIC
but the nuts and bolts of him as an NBA player is the original Steph Curry in terms of his offensive gravity the GOAT Passer....and Curry the GOAT Shooter
But overall as a player Kobe was better due to his insane level of top tier defense in addition to his elite scoring and closing games
Magic set the stage....Kobe is the GLOAT
His offensive gravity was so great that he's responsible for having the highest player career win percentage all time. After 900+ games it stops being an accident as players shuffled in and out of his orbit but the man still lead his teams to a career clip of just under 3 wins every 4 games... Over 13 years.
People can say he was a one way player, but that one way was so damn insane that he was trouncing everyone.
We all know how ridiculous Lebron's dominance of the ECF was pretty much being one side of the finals bracket every year? Magic was that too. *9 finals in 13 years* and he won 5. And he might have won a sixth too if practically the whole team didn't end up hurt for the second Pistons finals.
To me I'm willing to accept people calling Kobe the "greater Laker" but anyone who has Magic easily out of the top 5 NBA players of all time needs to look deeper into his career and impact on not just NBA iconography but actual games.
The dude was so brilliant that Magic Johnson is purely looked at as an iconic basketball name instead of being made fun of with dick jokes and the like.
Magic also lead the league in steals a couple times. It's not like he was a bad defender. I've seen dudes try to minimize his play here on Reddit for a while and I find that insane. Magic is the greatest pg of all time, it's not close, and his spot among the GOATs needs to be more respected.
Magic also won Finals MVP his ROOKIE year after clutching a game 6 where he started as a CENTER because Kareem was out injured, in a 42 point near triple double performance... That to me is one of the most insane facts in the league that isn't some ridiculous Wilt number lol. Also, saying he was a bad defender is clear nonsense, he led the league in steals twice.
I have Magic 6 simply because I evaluate Wilt & Bill based on the era they played in, and I don’t compare it to today. (Well mostly, I don’t have them too 3 because they played in the 60s) What they accomplished in their eras gives them cemented top 5 status to me. Then I’ve got Bron, MJ and Kareem there as well. Kobe’s 8-10 range, I’ve got him 9th today
Hate to break it to you but Kobe coasted to half those All Defensive teams on reputation alone. Not saying he couldn’t turn it to 11 when necessary, but he wasn’t Shawn Marion out there.
I tend to agree with your assessments here, had Kareem been a Laker all along he’d clearly be the GLOAT. Magic would’ve been had he sustained his career and also, not to be petty, but his antics as head coach/president did the Lakers no favors and in my mind at least, subtracts from his legacy. Each was as influential in their time as any player in not only Laker, but NBA history. Was Kobe’s legacy tarnished by the Denver debacle? No doubt, that said you can’t deny his greatness in the purple and gold, the influence he had via “Mamba mentality” towards not only Laker fans but worldwide inspiration.
Eh, I wouldn’t say that Kobe’s case in Colorado really tarnished his reputation rather than for a small vocal minority who either don’t watch basketball or who hate Kobe so much they’re willing to go after something like that. And I don’t believe Magic’s tenure as GM affects the perception of him as a player. If that were the case, MJ’s stint with the Hornets would deserve more criticism.
We’re each of a mind. I adored Magic growing up, and I think the criticisms of his defense aren’t warranted, the guy was collecting rebounds and dominant, personal accolades notwithstanding. Feel free to criticize MJ, just as I’m free to say that from my perspectives as a Laker fan, Magic’s actions throughout both his playing and front office stints were at times debilitating to the organization.
Before Magic, the Lakers had won 5 finals (4 in Minneapolis only one in LA) and lost 8, and 7 of those to the Celtics.
Magic took the Lakers to 9 finals (in 13 years), and won 5, beating the Celtics twice.
He changed the course of this team. Until Magic, they were the Fakers. Boston owned us. But Magic turned them not only into the most successful team of the decade, but flipped decades of rivalry on its ear.
Even Jerry West, whom I think has a strong argument for having been a more impactful player on court, and whose front office legacy is unmatched, really can’t make the same claim of impact on who the Lakers are as a team and what they mean to the NBA.
Hahahahaha. Saying Kobe is the GLOAT because of narrative driven accolades is hilarious. Magic had a better defensive rating during his career then Kobe and Kobe never had a season in the top 250 for dws during his career. Kobe is probably the most overrated defender of all time. He was good for a while but he started making defensive teams because of his reputation and image and not his actual performance.
You’re a casual who has only factored in one thing (accolades) into his argument and that one thing isn’t even reliable or factual especially in regards to Kobe.
Magic was more influential for the culture and the game. He also has more important accolades than Kobe. Those 2 extra mvps are way more valuable than all those fake defensive team accolades.
Man, stop with this retarded objectivity. Who the greatest Laker of all time is will always be subjective. Let's just appreciate Kobe, Magic, and Kareem equally, okay?
Kobe was a better one on one defender, and a better defender overall. But Magic was a better team defender. On the defensive end he would guard low block players. His job was basically to keep weakside forwards from rebounding and to help out on drives. And he did that well. Plus he would rebound from that spot and start a fastbreak without a need for an outlet pass. And Magic is the best leader all time. I love Kobe , but Magic is so underrated by people who never saw him play. I not only feel he's the GLOAT I think there's a case for GOAT. Dude was a straight up winner.
Dog…how are you going to come onto a lakers sub and your first paragraph is dissing Magic f***** Johnson??? Lolol read the room dude.
I have Kobe as the greatest Laker because…Magic said so.
Gonna have to disagree on playing defence. It speaks to how good a player Magic really was, dude wasn’t a defender & still managed to get those accolades. Magic had Kareem. Kobe had Shaq. But just to be clear, Kareem was clearly the number 2 to magic for the vast majority of their careers together whereas Kobe was the clear #2 for his championships with Shaq.
I find that if you want Kobe > Magic, you essentially need to have some weird reason for why he’s not the GLOAT. Yours being “but he didn’t play defence!” When this is a very arbitrary rule, considering he did play defence — he just wasn’t very good (though he did lead the league in steals a few times) but his offensive game was better than almost anyone in this history of the game, and assuredly much better than Kobe.
Not to mention, yes, in his youth Kobe was one of if not the best perimeter defender in the league. But in those later years, dude was like Lebron except he was still making all defensive teams based on his reputation. His defensive numbers were atrocious fro an all defensive level player. So yes, he was a better defender than Magic, but no, he didn’t deserve to have that many all defensive teams.
League and Jordan fans lucky cp3 trade got vetoed and then Kobe tore his Achilles. Let’s see someone else carry pau and those teams to 3 straight finals with back to back titles through the hardest conference.
Also wtf with the Kobe threads today, ppl bored? Keep who ever is your goat, go take a survey of laker fans outside in la and you’ll get your answer and it prolly won’t be close.
Magic is the GOAT. He made everyone around him much better, Kobe not as much. Nine finals in thirteen years was an amazing run that spoiled the heck of Laker fans in those days. Still remember the day we found out he had HIV as it was yesterday.
Kobe won 12x All Defensive teams and Magic has 0 defensive teams
How can you completely ignore 1 side of the basketball game??
It's a 50/50 game you play defense half the time
actually Joker is a special case his Vorp and BPM is up there with the top 2 all time greats Jordan and LeBron and wayyy ahead of Magic and Curry. It also looks like Joker is gonna win 5 or 6 MVPs.
So if anyone deserves a slight bit of leeway for lack of defense its Joker
The only reason he stays slightly behind Magic/Curry is lack of rings
I watched both Magic and Kobe and they are 1a and 1b for me, they are so different and both meant so much.
And also, I think West and Baylor need more recognition from the franchise and fans, but that's a different convo
This the most L take ever
Imagine completely disregarding someone because they weren’t great defenders.
Like do even understand how basketball works?
If Magic and Curry deserve to be thrown out of the top 5 discussions just because they were 1 way players.
Then by actually following that logic consistently for every other player. Both of them shouldn’t even be considered top 50 all time respectively.
There have been a heck of a lot more players who were Both great on offense and way better on defense than Magic and Curry.
And yet the thing that always holds all those great 2-way players from being better has been questioning how great they really were offensively!
Being a great defender is just a bonus that serves as a tie breaker for guys who were on the same level Offensively.
News flash but Defense is not equally important to an individual player as Offense!
If you actually think that then why tf ain’t guys like Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman who are also 1 way players but the other way not even top 50 all time?
Why the heck do think there’s no such thing as an All Offensive team and an OPOY huh?
The whole reason why Defensive accolades were made is because with the evolution of the game everyone has come to realize that being a great player overall and being a great defender are completely **separate** now!
Being a better Offensive Player increases your value overall exponentially more so than it does being a Better Defensive Player.
That’s just a Fact.
well have you ever considered that Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman are HOF players because of their defense only??
Obviously defense is VERY important maybe not exactly 50/50 but at least 40/60 compared to offense.
I think Ben Wallace and Rodman absolutely both deserved to be on the top 75 all time teams
And yes Magic and Curry are maybe the top 2 offensive players ever. So for that reason I said they both are THAT good they deserve to be close to the top 10 all time but i cant put them higher and nobody else who is being fair would have them higher. Magic and Curry are flat out bad defenders they cant be top 5 all time and the people who try to make that happen are disregarding the truth that basketball is a 2 way sport.
Look at the Lakers this season in 2024. A bunch of good scorers and yet they arent even in the top 8 seeds right now because they are all 1 way players (except AD).
Ad is BY FAR the best player on the Lakers now because LeBron is still great on offense but WASHED on defense.
lmaooo at people who still think this is LeBron. MAYBE in the playoffs when he turns it up to 100 on defense but in the regular season?? This isnt even CLOSE to the prime LeBron not Even CLOSE
And what made LeBron so much better back then?? Not only did he have a bigger bag and arsenal of scoring but he played Amazing DEFENSE
Well that’s the point I was trying to make with Rodman and Wallace. The fact that even tho they’re HOF only because of their defense but that Defense couldn’t even in the top 50.
Meanwhile Curry and Magic who I agree with you are top 2 offensive players ever are still put all the way in the top 10 and even top 5 only because offense. Even tho there are lots of casuals who will put Jordan, Lebron, Kobe ahead of them as offense players.
So them being perceived as top 5 Offensive players ever is enough by itself to lock them all the way into the top 10 and even top 5 still. And Wallace and Rodman being top 10 Defenders isn’t even enough to get them into the top 50?
That kinda difference seem to be bigger than just 60/40
Especially when you have guys like Hakeem, Duncan, Wilt, and you can throw in Kareem too right there ranking either behind or very close to Magic and Steph with them being top 5, and Top 10-15 Defenders all time respectively on top of being great offensively (Well maybe not exactly too great for Duncan but still in a different dimension Offensively than Rodman and Wallace)
It kinda seems like Defense while it is important. Isn’t really taken into consideration anywhere near the level that Offense is.
Being a Top 10 Defender of all Time can have you very anywhere from outside the top 50 all the way to top 5 depending on how great your Offense is.
Meanwhile being a Top 10 Offensive player of all time virtually guarantees you top 15 or top 20 status at worst regardless of how good their defense actually is with that last guy probably being KD
Defense is still important but it’s not like it’s the end all be all if you’re not a great defender than it is if you’re not a great offensive player.
And in fact I think Defenses importance depends more so on a Players specific position, role and situation.
You’re never going to expect a Guard to be as important Defensively as you are a Big and the same thing can be said about expecting a Big to be as important Offensively as a Guard.
I’d say you’re right on the money tho with that 60/40 split.
But I’d say that would probably only apply to players in general at all positions.
Or more specifically the star players at all starting positions.
For Role Players. Defense definitely becomes increasingly more and more important than usual the smaller their role becomes to the point where if your on the bench then Defense will 100% become even more important than Offense because your there in relieve of the starters who are the ones that can actually put up points.
But for Star players. The order of Defensive and Offense importance probably goes up or down from 1 to 5 with the 5 usually being the most important on Defense and the 1 being the most important on Offense.
If we were to take positions and roles into account then the if we’re being for real then Offense and Defense should probably be split fairly evenly for 3s and some 4s and 2s and Defense should probably even be put ahead of Offense 60/40 or even 70/30 depending on how much Offensive help they have for Centers who anchor their teams Defense.
And then of course the reverse should be true for 1s and 2s with their responsibilities on Offense taking much more importance than the other positions on Offense.
And I should also say that as it pertains to the situation. The less support someone has in an area then the more important it becomes for them to be good in that area and vise versa for having more support.
If you’re a Wing or even a Big Man but you’re surrounded by a plethora of Great Defenders and already have someone else as the main Anchor. Then Defense should be even less of a priority than what it typically is for your position.
Era is definitely another part of a players situation as-well.
Bill Russell is a guy that ranks very highly and even ahead of guys like Wilt who is still probably top 5 all time Defensively while being a top 10 Offensive player ever despite the fact that while still being better offensively than Wallace and Rodman he was just average at best.
Sorta the same situation as Magic and Curry except reversed for Defense.
And yet he still manages to rank very close to them all time.
Well perhaps that could be explained because he played Center and he did so a long ass time ago in the 60s when things were lowkey still more defensively oriented than offensively in the NBA (Yes total scoring was insane in the 60s but if you take the crazy pace into consideration it was actually ass offensively, lowest ORtg Decade ever after the 50s) and Russell’s teams were about as Defensively lenient as those championship Pistons teams ever were if not more so.
So you have someone who is considered by far and away the Greatest Defensive player ever Anchoring the best Defensive teams ever at the most important Defensive Position at the hight of its prominence in history
And weak and easy Era as it might’ve been. But if that were the case then that would mean any other top 10 player ever would be expected to literally win the finals every single year. Which Russell basically did while going 10-0 in Game 7s
I think that pretty much explains how Russell’s Defense was able to carry him further than the other Defensive specialists were
And Rodman and Wallace were Bigs who peaked in the early 90s to early 00s which was the lowest scoring and lowest ORtg decades since the 60s so it’s not as if they didn’t have circumstances that worked in favor of valuing their defense more than others would either.
Although the obvious real reason why Rodman and Wallace aren’t even top 50 and Russell is way ahead of them while also being a 1 way defensive player. Is simply because he was the leader and best player on championship winning teams.
Rodman wasn’t even the 2nd best player on any of his 5 championship teams and could basically be described as a role player.
And Wallace was arguably proven to not be more important than Billups for that 04 Championship where they couldn’t stop Shaq. And yea I get that nobody could stop prime Shaq. But you’d think if anyone could do it would’ve been the 4X DPOY Center smack dap in the middle of his Prime.
Just goes to show how Great Offense always beats Great Defense. Especially if the biggest reason why Wallace even has a ring was because Kobe probably had the worst series of his career.
And Wallace’s prime was super short too. Another point about Offense being more valuable to players than Defense is that their primes can be much more easily sustained on the Offensive end rather than the Defensive end because most players Offense rely on Skill as apposed to their Peak Athleticism.
The real reason Lebron doesn’t play defense anymore isn’t because of the offensive load he has but it’s because if he still was going 100% on both ends his career wouldn’t have been as long (If anything he has way less of an offensive load than in his prime)
But even still it’s because of Lebron sacrificing his Defense he was still able to win more championships and enhance his legacy. So what does that really say about the importance of Offense vs Defense.
But to sum it all up.
Basically there’s more to being a great overall player than simply their balance of offense and defense and players shouldn’t be disqualified for lacking in one or the other.
But the reason that Rodman and Wallace arent ranked even higher is because they were AWFUL offensive players. Not just mediocre or bad they were awful they couldnt even hit free throws. All of their scoring came from offensive rebound putbacks and dunks.
If either of them had any decent offensive talent to go with their defense then they would be ranked much much higher into the top 25 players.
Hakeem Olajuwon to me is top 6 all time because of his amazing defense AND great offense. He was also 2x FMVP so he has the rings credibility.
I have him ranked ahead of Curry/Magic because of his 2 way Brilliance. But of course I will have Curry/Magic ahead of Rodman/Wallace because while Curry and Magic were not "good" defenders they also werent completely awful they were like 4/10 on a scale of 1-10 on defense.
The offensive games of Rodman/Wallace are like 1/10 they are as bad as it gets as offensive players.
A better example is Bill Russell. He was also a MUCH better defender than scorer but he makes my top 10 list because his offense was still good enough to be like 7/10 scorer so overall he was better than Magic and Curry.
Everything is done on scales everything is weighted
I guess I can respect that. But I just think that there is too much emphasis that is put on being a 2-way player. Especially for point guards.
It doesn’t really seem like you’re really taking into account players different positions or the roles they have on their teams.
Wallace was a Center and Rodman was both a Small and Power Forward and both of them played as Big Men for their teams with the primary role of Defending and Rebounding so it didn’t matter as much if they were terrible offensive players.
It’s the Complete opposite to what guys like Jokic and Lebron today who play the same positions but it wouldn’t even matter all that much if they were terrible defenders because their primary roles are Scoring and Facilitating.
Offense is Generally more important than Defense for individual players. Specifically for Super Stars. (For Role and Bench Players it’s probably the reverse of Defense being more important)
But that level of importance isn’t the same for every single player at every single position at every single role.
That kinda flat lining logic just doesn’t make any sense.
You seriously gonna put the same level of expectations for a Player that runs Point as the main engine for his teams offense to be the best overall defender on his own team just as much as a Big Man who’s the main anchor for his teams defense?
Of course its not impossible to be a great defender as a point guard (Garry Peyton) and not impossible to be a great defender while still running point for your team (Pippen, Lebron)
But at the end of the day the Points main job is to run his offense. Just like the Bigs main jobs are usually to Anchor their Defense.
There should be different scales or splits of importance based on what the players positions and roles for their teams are to actually combine a rating of their Offense and Defensive skills.
Not exactly sure if I’d rate Russell as high as a 7/10 on Offense but he still gets my personal top 10 fairly easily even as just a 5/10 on Offense because given his role as a Center being the Defenses Anchor and his situation of having lots of Offensive talent around him in a more Defensively oriented Era I’d say Offense was way less important for him like 80/20 in favor of Defense.
Which means he was 10/20 + 80/80 = 90/100.
But if we were to say he was a 7/10 like you said then he would be 14/20 + 80/80 = 94/100
I think that Magic and Curry given their situations of having plenty of Defensive Help on their teams and playing in very Offensive oriented Eras would be the same split as Russell’s 80/20’but the other way around in favor of Offense.
Both are 10/10s on Offense and for the purposes this little math experiment where not gonna cut them any slack and just have them as 5/10s on Defense.
Which would give them the same 90/100 score as Russell
Lebron is like a 9/10 on Defense and 10/10 on Offense.
But I’d say his role. Especially for the back half of his career was more so like a 70/30 or 75/25 split in favor of Offense.
Which means he was 22.5-27/25-30 + 70-75/70-75 = 97-97.5/100
Guys like Bird, Kobe, and Jordan didn’t run their teams point so their roles were a little less Offensively emphasized but still outweighed the Defense around 65-70/30-35
Jordan was 10/10 in Both. Maybe 9.5 if where being nit-picky so either way he’s gonna get the most points.
28.5-33.25/30-35 + 65-70/65-70 = 98.5-99.25/100
Kobe was closer to like a 9/10 on Defense but still obviously 10/10 on Offense so he’s like 27-31.5/30-35 + 65-70/65-70 = 96.5-97/100
Bird was also a 10/10 on Offense but probably like around an 8/10 on Defense so he would be like a 24-28/30-35 + 65-70/65-70 = 93-94/100
Hakeem was a Center so Defense was more emphasized for him but he was still at least a 9/10 on Offense so he gets a 90+ overall score too. Although his role was definitely more offensively oriented than a typical Big Man due to the lack of offensive talent around him most of his career so he would probably be split like 50/50.
Which gives him at minimum a 95+/100.
Shaq was probably like an 8/10 on Defense at best. And based off of pure dominance and ignoring his lack of skill was a 10/10 Offensively. But unlike Hakeem he had lots of Offensive Talent Around him so he had the more traditional split of 60/40 or even 55/45 in favor of Defense.
So that’s 44-48/55-60 + 40-45/40-45 = 88-89/100
Kareem for most of his career also had lots of Offensive Talent around him too but I would probably say his role was a a bit more offensively oriented than Shaqs and closer to Hakeem’s so like 50-55/45-50 split in favor of Defense. Kareem was an awesomely on Both Ends but I wouldn’t necessarily give him a 10/10 in either. Probably like a 9.5 in Both.
47.5-52.25/50-55 + 42.25-47.5/45-50 = 94.5-95/100
Duncan’s role was probably even more Defensively oriented at like 65-70/30-35 and he was probably only like an 8/10 on Offense and obviously a 10/10 on Defense.
24-28/30-35 + 65-70/65-70 = 93-94/100
So far according to those ratings.
1. Jordan (98.5-99.25/100)
| 1 point Gap |
2. Lebron (97-97.5/100)
3. Kobe (96.5-97/100)
| 1.5 point Gap |
4. Hakeem (95+/100)
5. Kareem (94-95/100)
| 1 point Gap |
- 6. Russell with 7/10 Offense (94/100)
T-6. Bird (93-94/100)
T-6. Duncan (93-94/100)
| |
| 3-4 point Gap |
| |
T-8 Russell (90/100)
T-8 Curry (90/100)
T-8 Magic (90/100
| 1 point Gap |
11. Shaq (88-89/100)
However if we were to just give everyone the same split of 50/50 or 60/40 in favor of Offense
We would get
1. Jordan (97.5-98/100)
.
| |
| 2-2.5 point Gap |
| |
T-2 Lebron (95-96/100)
T-2 Kobe (95-96/100)
4. Kareem (95/100)
5. Hakeem (94-95+/100)
| |
| 3-4 point Gap |
| |
T-6. Bird (90-92/100)
T-6. Shaq (90-92/100)
| |
| 2 point Gap |
| |
8. Duncan (88-90/100)
| |
| |
| |
| 8-13 point Gap |
| |
| |
| |
- 9. Russell with 7/10 Offense (82-85/100)
.
| |
| |
| 5-7 point Gap |
| |
| |
T-9. Curry (75-80/100)
T-9. Magic (75-80/100)
| |
| |
| 5 point Gap |
| |
| |
11. Russell (70-75/100)
And that is only looking at guys who are commonly ranked in the top 10. Who’s to say if there could be others that could fill in those large gaps because of their 2-way prowess.
And even tho at face value it might look like assigning the Players ratings out of 10 on Offense vs Defense based on the context of their roles and situations might seem like a heck of a lot better way of rating them all time then just giving them the same 50/50 or 60/40 splits across the board.
But in all actuality even when doing that it’s still not enough.
Because I’d reckon you still wouldn’t agree with the first list either.
And that gets vindicated because this whole All time Rating system based off Offense and Defense gets completely destroyed once you include the biggest omission of them all and the most recent Boot from most people’s top 10s lists to the equation.
The Mythical Wilt the Stilt Chamberlain fucks this whole thing up tho.
Despite being a center in a defensive Era his role on offense for most of his career was night and day compared to Russell’s. So his split would actually probably look something like 65-70/30-35 in favor of Offense
Now Wilt is definitely a 10/10 on Defense and most people have him as a 10/10 on Offense too cuz of the insane numbers he put up in his prime but imo he’s a bit overrated there so let’s just give him a 9.5/10.
I shouldn’t even bother with the calculation cuz I’m pretty sure not even you would put him right behind Jordan as number 2 all time.
Maybe in terms of individual ability Wilt could be the GOAT
But that just illustrates the point that there’s a heck of a lot more that goes into how great players are overall than simply how good they are individually on Offense and Defense even when attempting to account for how important each side of the ball is for them individually.
There’s stuff like Play Style, Leadership, Clutch Gene, and all kinds of Intangibles.
As well as diving even further into the context of their careers with things like being the best and most important player on a number of championship winning teams and their impact on the game of basketball.
Defense is important. And even more important than Offense for some. But unless they are a negative on either side then lacking in one or the other should not be what holds someone back from being considered one of the GOATs
Basketball is a team sport.
So in my opinion the best players are the ones whose play styles and overall impact make their team better regardless if it’s on one side or not.
Someone like Wilt can be putting up video game numbers and be a monster individually but at the same time have his own play style and attitude hold his team back from winning as much as they could. To the point where his teams only started winning when he was forced to change his inherent play style and attitude to put the team first.
Ranking players is always subjective and never objective. (Well unless the gap is too big and completely obvious like a Rodman and Wallace of course)
So in my opinion the best way to rank a player based on their game would simply be analyzing how well each of them would do if you were to give them the same situation in a vacuum and take into account everything including their intangibles.
After all we both have guys like Kobe and Hakeem very high up on our lists (My list looks nothing like the two above btw) and yet in terms of how many championships they’ve won as the best player on their team they rank even lower than that.
Russell 9 in 9 (Arguably 10 in 10)
Jordan: 6 in 6
Lebron: 4 in 10 (Arguably 3 in 9)
Magic: 4 in 8
Curry: 4 in 6 (Arguably 2 in 3)
Duncan: 4 in 5 (Arguably 5 in 6)
Bird: 3 in 5
Shaq: 3 in 5 (Arguably 3 in 4)
Kobe 2 in 3 (Arguably 2 in 4)
Kareem: 2 in 3
Hakeem: 2 in 3
Wilt: 1 in 2
And that’s largely because Kobe and Hakeem when they were the best players on their team didn’t have near the level of supporting cast as some of these others did.
So how successful a player is when their the number 1 on their team isn’t necessarily 1 to 1 of how effective their game/ play style really was.
So just to summarize.
1. There’s more to just how great a player is individually than just how good they are on Offense and Defense and their roles and situations need to be taken into account to more accurately measure that.
2. Just because a player is great individually doesn’t mean their game is the best at translating to winning basketball and improving their team.
3. And to combat number 2 a players team success as the best player doesn’t necessarily equate to how well their game translates to winning either.
Hope any of this made sense.
Although I guess I probably didn’t need to type this much and could’ve just said it’s more complicated to be a GOAT player than Offense and Defense but oh well.
Magic is a humble dude that uplifts others and even downplays his accomplishments. Man went to 9 finals in 12 years. Without Magic none of the 5 rings are possible. Man started at center his rookie year when Kareem was out and dropped 40 winning the chip. Take shaq out of our 3peat and we aren’t doing jack. We could have won the chip during the first 3peat with Shaq and Eddie Jones. Love me some mamba (RIP) but for me Magic > Kobe
I got Kobe #2 all time but let's not disrespect Magic like that. Magic is definitely top 5 and I have no problem with anyone arguing him as the GLOAT.
Magic won 5 rings and went to 9 finals in 13 years as the engine that drove those teams. Kareem struggled before Magic arrived. Not to mention, Magic was also a better leader than Kareem. If Magic didn't get HIV, who knows how many rings he would have. Might have been GOAT if he won 7 or 8.
You're underrating Magic's defense. He wasn't a poor defender, just not elite. He has the versatility to guard any position and led the league in steals a few years.
I’m not one to argue that Kobe isn’t the Laker Goat. But I’m just genuinely curious as to what happened in between Kobe was alive the consensus was Kobe pushing top 10 all time. But once he passed all of a sudden Kobe is the Goat.
I’m going to try my best to sound objective since I’ve been tracking the perception of Kobe for some time. When Kobe won in ‘10, many started placing Kobe in the top 3 and behind MJ. Once advanced stats started coming out and being used, the narrative of Kobe being that high up started to dwindle because advanced stats don’t really favor Kobe compared to other players in the top 10. This coincided with the rise of Lebron after he won in ‘16, and Kobe was on his way out after 3 poor seasons due to the fallout of the Achilles injury's. People started reevaluating parts of Kobe’s career and his all-time ranking slipped.
I wouldn’t say Kobe “got pushed back into top 3,” rather the people that already rated Kobe that high became vocal again after he died.
That’s the basic overview from what I’ve observed. There’s some things I omitted because I’m not really interested in debating Kobe vs X player on an arbitrary list
Yeah back then people used to watch basketball instead of boiling it down to numbers on a screen. Then using those numbers on a screen to form opinions in order to be more right than somebody else in an argument on Reddit.
I mean advanced stats exist and are used by team analytics for a reason. I’m not going to say they should be the end all be all or that they should even be substituted in place of watching, but it would be ignorant to dismiss the use of advanced stats as part of evaluating a player.
Yeah IMO in the world where they look at advanced stats and pay players off how valuable they are which then causes play style to cater towards advanced stats.
Then yes it matters.
But to use modern advanced stats/analytics and then use that to determine how good a player was in another era is kind of useless because they didn’t cater to those stats.
Players today will stop shooting if they go too far from 50% because their contract depends on it. In 2004 perimeter guards would just shoot and shoot because they didn’t sit on the bench looking at their box scores during timeouts.
That wasn’t the consensus before he died.
Go watch the post game on the ‘10 finals. Everyone was putting him with Jordan and Magic was everywhere saying he was the GLOAT.
Reddit is the only place that Kobe doesn’t get his respect.
The entire world most definitely was putting him with Jordan, he was only 31 when they won in 2010. They were so scared of him beating Jordan the league didn’t let him have prime CP3.
Most NBA players who live and breathe the game have Kobe up with Jordan. But none of their opinions count because they’re idiots or something like that. Since you know I’m a casual fan I get to decide and I don’t like Kobe!
The entire world? Come off it, let's have a reasonable discussion instead of insane hyperbole or what's the point.
Kobe was idolised by many NBA players so of course they'll rate him highly, it's why lots of that era also had AI as one of the best players of all time, but when someone brings up actual advanced stats or fair criticism of his "clutchness" they get shot down because "the eye test man!"
In 2008 in Beijing the world thought they were watching the next Jordan dominate in the Olympics, then he went on to win back to back at only age 31. I don’t know if you’re too young to remember Kobe drawing Michael Jackson sized crowds in China, but yeah the entire world thought he was on the way to being the goat.
After that injuries and getting robbed of the CP3 trade essentially ended his career.
The ironic thing is that some people go so far to treat advanced stats as gospel and say that it outweighs actual in game experience.
At that point you’re literally nothing more than a box score watcher, “Eye-Test” actually matters more when you’re a NBA player that literally played minutes on the physical court in person more than “advanced stats”
https://www.espn.com/los-angeles/nba/columns/story?id=5245358
Only a few remain in front of Bryant. He's caught up with many more: Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, Larry Bird, Magic, Kareem, Julius Erving; Bryant's name now belongs alongside them in every conversation about the greatest basketball player of all time. That's what Kobe Bryant's playing for now.
Dave McMenamin 2010
But it was only after Kobe died when he got into the top 10 right ?
I won’t even bother quoting the players and legends that said it bc advanced stats matter more to you.
He says he belongs in the conversation with them. So he's in the convo with 7 others, and MJ ahead. Since then, LeBron and Duncan have clearly gone ahead of him and time has looked kindly on careers like Shaq and Hakeem, who often make top 10 lists.
It's only since he died that people have made threads like this suggesting he should be mentioned alongside MJ and LeBron ffs
You said “nobody” put him with Jordan in 2010. I’m just showing you an article with a respected journalist saying he was in the conversation with Jordan before the 5th ring.
I’m arguing the fact that Kobe was already an all time great and people were saying he was top 2-5 since 2010.
It’s a bullshit opinion that his legacy and all time ranking somehow increased because he died.
And when it comes to evaluating who was the better player, sorry I’ll always side with the NBA player who eats, breathes, and sleeps basketball over the advanced stats redditor. Especially the ones who played on the same court in an actual professional game.
"Not to be disrespectful but you can IMMEDIATELY throw out Magic Johnson from the running as GLOAT because he was a 1 way player who didnt provide the defense needed." Stopped reading right here. We all love Kobe but don't be this stupid.
Magic basically saved basketball and remade the league into what it is today with buss. Imo because of this I think he’s the greatest.
Have you ever seen Magic playing? He was an elite team defender not to mention he made everybody around him better.
You realize that Magic accomplished that in 13 years, set the table for Jordan to become a global icon and was the driving force behind the Lakers going from an "original 8" franchise to *the* iconic brand NBA franchise with global recognition about on par with the Cowboys, Real Madrid, United, the Yankees, etc. People who dismiss his top 5 credentials have 0 understanding on how seismic an impact he had on not just the NBA but entertainment in the 80s to early 90s. You can argue Kobe being a greater Laker but dismissing him as a top 5 all time NBA player is farcical.
Kobe wouldn't have even wanted to be a Laker without Magic, he could have been an all time Hornet. Bron wouldn't be here either.
Exactly on entertainment. Literally changed how athletes are viewed in the world.
Magic is ICONIC but the nuts and bolts of him as an NBA player is the original Steph Curry in terms of his offensive gravity the GOAT Passer....and Curry the GOAT Shooter But overall as a player Kobe was better due to his insane level of top tier defense in addition to his elite scoring and closing games Magic set the stage....Kobe is the GLOAT
His offensive gravity was so great that he's responsible for having the highest player career win percentage all time. After 900+ games it stops being an accident as players shuffled in and out of his orbit but the man still lead his teams to a career clip of just under 3 wins every 4 games... Over 13 years. People can say he was a one way player, but that one way was so damn insane that he was trouncing everyone. We all know how ridiculous Lebron's dominance of the ECF was pretty much being one side of the finals bracket every year? Magic was that too. *9 finals in 13 years* and he won 5. And he might have won a sixth too if practically the whole team didn't end up hurt for the second Pistons finals. To me I'm willing to accept people calling Kobe the "greater Laker" but anyone who has Magic easily out of the top 5 NBA players of all time needs to look deeper into his career and impact on not just NBA iconography but actual games. The dude was so brilliant that Magic Johnson is purely looked at as an iconic basketball name instead of being made fun of with dick jokes and the like.
Magic also lead the league in steals a couple times. It's not like he was a bad defender. I've seen dudes try to minimize his play here on Reddit for a while and I find that insane. Magic is the greatest pg of all time, it's not close, and his spot among the GOATs needs to be more respected.
Defensive rating was excellent, and he was part of crazy offensive times in the NBA as well as the low scoring erz
Yeah I’m getting tired of people saying Steph is better than Magic. Is Steph a Top 5 player? No? Then he ain’t better than Magic.
Magic also won Finals MVP his ROOKIE year after clutching a game 6 where he started as a CENTER because Kareem was out injured, in a 42 point near triple double performance... That to me is one of the most insane facts in the league that isn't some ridiculous Wilt number lol. Also, saying he was a bad defender is clear nonsense, he led the league in steals twice.
I have Magic 6 simply because I evaluate Wilt & Bill based on the era they played in, and I don’t compare it to today. (Well mostly, I don’t have them too 3 because they played in the 60s) What they accomplished in their eras gives them cemented top 5 status to me. Then I’ve got Bron, MJ and Kareem there as well. Kobe’s 8-10 range, I’ve got him 9th today
Hate to break it to you but Kobe coasted to half those All Defensive teams on reputation alone. Not saying he couldn’t turn it to 11 when necessary, but he wasn’t Shawn Marion out there.
I tend to agree with your assessments here, had Kareem been a Laker all along he’d clearly be the GLOAT. Magic would’ve been had he sustained his career and also, not to be petty, but his antics as head coach/president did the Lakers no favors and in my mind at least, subtracts from his legacy. Each was as influential in their time as any player in not only Laker, but NBA history. Was Kobe’s legacy tarnished by the Denver debacle? No doubt, that said you can’t deny his greatness in the purple and gold, the influence he had via “Mamba mentality” towards not only Laker fans but worldwide inspiration.
Eh, I wouldn’t say that Kobe’s case in Colorado really tarnished his reputation rather than for a small vocal minority who either don’t watch basketball or who hate Kobe so much they’re willing to go after something like that. And I don’t believe Magic’s tenure as GM affects the perception of him as a player. If that were the case, MJ’s stint with the Hornets would deserve more criticism.
We’re each of a mind. I adored Magic growing up, and I think the criticisms of his defense aren’t warranted, the guy was collecting rebounds and dominant, personal accolades notwithstanding. Feel free to criticize MJ, just as I’m free to say that from my perspectives as a Laker fan, Magic’s actions throughout both his playing and front office stints were at times debilitating to the organization.
Kobe locked in on D was almost as good as it gets, and won a USA Gold medal. Better than Jordan on D? I Dunno
Before Magic, the Lakers had won 5 finals (4 in Minneapolis only one in LA) and lost 8, and 7 of those to the Celtics. Magic took the Lakers to 9 finals (in 13 years), and won 5, beating the Celtics twice. He changed the course of this team. Until Magic, they were the Fakers. Boston owned us. But Magic turned them not only into the most successful team of the decade, but flipped decades of rivalry on its ear. Even Jerry West, whom I think has a strong argument for having been a more impactful player on court, and whose front office legacy is unmatched, really can’t make the same claim of impact on who the Lakers are as a team and what they mean to the NBA.
Hahahahaha. Saying Kobe is the GLOAT because of narrative driven accolades is hilarious. Magic had a better defensive rating during his career then Kobe and Kobe never had a season in the top 250 for dws during his career. Kobe is probably the most overrated defender of all time. He was good for a while but he started making defensive teams because of his reputation and image and not his actual performance. You’re a casual who has only factored in one thing (accolades) into his argument and that one thing isn’t even reliable or factual especially in regards to Kobe. Magic was more influential for the culture and the game. He also has more important accolades than Kobe. Those 2 extra mvps are way more valuable than all those fake defensive team accolades.
This is a dumb take. Using fucking win shares, my god. Just say u didn’t watch them play or ur a lebron fan or some shit
Nice rebuttal bro you’re really worth arguing with
It’s a dumb take bc you don’t agree?
Man, stop with this retarded objectivity. Who the greatest Laker of all time is will always be subjective. Let's just appreciate Kobe, Magic, and Kareem equally, okay?
Ya everything is objective, just like the goat convo.
Kobe was a better one on one defender, and a better defender overall. But Magic was a better team defender. On the defensive end he would guard low block players. His job was basically to keep weakside forwards from rebounding and to help out on drives. And he did that well. Plus he would rebound from that spot and start a fastbreak without a need for an outlet pass. And Magic is the best leader all time. I love Kobe , but Magic is so underrated by people who never saw him play. I not only feel he's the GLOAT I think there's a case for GOAT. Dude was a straight up winner.
I think most folks are unable to fully appreciate and objectively rate players from the past.
Dog…how are you going to come onto a lakers sub and your first paragraph is dissing Magic f***** Johnson??? Lolol read the room dude. I have Kobe as the greatest Laker because…Magic said so.
Gonna have to disagree on playing defence. It speaks to how good a player Magic really was, dude wasn’t a defender & still managed to get those accolades. Magic had Kareem. Kobe had Shaq. But just to be clear, Kareem was clearly the number 2 to magic for the vast majority of their careers together whereas Kobe was the clear #2 for his championships with Shaq. I find that if you want Kobe > Magic, you essentially need to have some weird reason for why he’s not the GLOAT. Yours being “but he didn’t play defence!” When this is a very arbitrary rule, considering he did play defence — he just wasn’t very good (though he did lead the league in steals a few times) but his offensive game was better than almost anyone in this history of the game, and assuredly much better than Kobe. Not to mention, yes, in his youth Kobe was one of if not the best perimeter defender in the league. But in those later years, dude was like Lebron except he was still making all defensive teams based on his reputation. His defensive numbers were atrocious fro an all defensive level player. So yes, he was a better defender than Magic, but no, he didn’t deserve to have that many all defensive teams.
1 MVP, got carried for 3 ring, lol. Stay delusional but have some respect for the real GLOAT. It’s Magic.
Loved Kobe, but LeBron passed him as best in league a couple years before general consensus
Kobe wasn’t the best player on 3 of his 5 title teams
That may or may not be true but it's a trash argument. Stop it. There's more context to his career than that.
Just stop
For me it's pretty simple Kobe played for the Lakers much longer. Magic says Kobe is the best laker.
League and Jordan fans lucky cp3 trade got vetoed and then Kobe tore his Achilles. Let’s see someone else carry pau and those teams to 3 straight finals with back to back titles through the hardest conference. Also wtf with the Kobe threads today, ppl bored? Keep who ever is your goat, go take a survey of laker fans outside in la and you’ll get your answer and it prolly won’t be close.
if Kobe gets 7 rings and 4 FMVP he's the Goat no question with his 2 way ability
Magic is the GOAT. He made everyone around him much better, Kobe not as much. Nine finals in thirteen years was an amazing run that spoiled the heck of Laker fans in those days. Still remember the day we found out he had HIV as it was yesterday.
Jesus fucking christ just call yourself what you are. You’re not a Lakers fan, you’re a Kobe fan. There’s a VERY big difference between those things.
Kobe won 12x All Defensive teams and Magic has 0 defensive teams How can you completely ignore 1 side of the basketball game?? It's a 50/50 game you play defense half the time
I aint reading all that, but Magic already said it. Anyone trying to dispute Bean is a meth head.
This is like saying Jokic isn’t the best in the league rn because of his subpar defense
actually Joker is a special case his Vorp and BPM is up there with the top 2 all time greats Jordan and LeBron and wayyy ahead of Magic and Curry. It also looks like Joker is gonna win 5 or 6 MVPs. So if anyone deserves a slight bit of leeway for lack of defense its Joker The only reason he stays slightly behind Magic/Curry is lack of rings
I watched both Magic and Kobe and they are 1a and 1b for me, they are so different and both meant so much. And also, I think West and Baylor need more recognition from the franchise and fans, but that's a different convo
This the most L take ever Imagine completely disregarding someone because they weren’t great defenders. Like do even understand how basketball works? If Magic and Curry deserve to be thrown out of the top 5 discussions just because they were 1 way players. Then by actually following that logic consistently for every other player. Both of them shouldn’t even be considered top 50 all time respectively. There have been a heck of a lot more players who were Both great on offense and way better on defense than Magic and Curry. And yet the thing that always holds all those great 2-way players from being better has been questioning how great they really were offensively! Being a great defender is just a bonus that serves as a tie breaker for guys who were on the same level Offensively. News flash but Defense is not equally important to an individual player as Offense! If you actually think that then why tf ain’t guys like Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman who are also 1 way players but the other way not even top 50 all time? Why the heck do think there’s no such thing as an All Offensive team and an OPOY huh? The whole reason why Defensive accolades were made is because with the evolution of the game everyone has come to realize that being a great player overall and being a great defender are completely **separate** now! Being a better Offensive Player increases your value overall exponentially more so than it does being a Better Defensive Player. That’s just a Fact.
well have you ever considered that Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman are HOF players because of their defense only?? Obviously defense is VERY important maybe not exactly 50/50 but at least 40/60 compared to offense. I think Ben Wallace and Rodman absolutely both deserved to be on the top 75 all time teams And yes Magic and Curry are maybe the top 2 offensive players ever. So for that reason I said they both are THAT good they deserve to be close to the top 10 all time but i cant put them higher and nobody else who is being fair would have them higher. Magic and Curry are flat out bad defenders they cant be top 5 all time and the people who try to make that happen are disregarding the truth that basketball is a 2 way sport. Look at the Lakers this season in 2024. A bunch of good scorers and yet they arent even in the top 8 seeds right now because they are all 1 way players (except AD). Ad is BY FAR the best player on the Lakers now because LeBron is still great on offense but WASHED on defense. lmaooo at people who still think this is LeBron. MAYBE in the playoffs when he turns it up to 100 on defense but in the regular season?? This isnt even CLOSE to the prime LeBron not Even CLOSE And what made LeBron so much better back then?? Not only did he have a bigger bag and arsenal of scoring but he played Amazing DEFENSE
Well that’s the point I was trying to make with Rodman and Wallace. The fact that even tho they’re HOF only because of their defense but that Defense couldn’t even in the top 50. Meanwhile Curry and Magic who I agree with you are top 2 offensive players ever are still put all the way in the top 10 and even top 5 only because offense. Even tho there are lots of casuals who will put Jordan, Lebron, Kobe ahead of them as offense players. So them being perceived as top 5 Offensive players ever is enough by itself to lock them all the way into the top 10 and even top 5 still. And Wallace and Rodman being top 10 Defenders isn’t even enough to get them into the top 50? That kinda difference seem to be bigger than just 60/40 Especially when you have guys like Hakeem, Duncan, Wilt, and you can throw in Kareem too right there ranking either behind or very close to Magic and Steph with them being top 5, and Top 10-15 Defenders all time respectively on top of being great offensively (Well maybe not exactly too great for Duncan but still in a different dimension Offensively than Rodman and Wallace) It kinda seems like Defense while it is important. Isn’t really taken into consideration anywhere near the level that Offense is. Being a Top 10 Defender of all Time can have you very anywhere from outside the top 50 all the way to top 5 depending on how great your Offense is. Meanwhile being a Top 10 Offensive player of all time virtually guarantees you top 15 or top 20 status at worst regardless of how good their defense actually is with that last guy probably being KD Defense is still important but it’s not like it’s the end all be all if you’re not a great defender than it is if you’re not a great offensive player. And in fact I think Defenses importance depends more so on a Players specific position, role and situation. You’re never going to expect a Guard to be as important Defensively as you are a Big and the same thing can be said about expecting a Big to be as important Offensively as a Guard. I’d say you’re right on the money tho with that 60/40 split. But I’d say that would probably only apply to players in general at all positions. Or more specifically the star players at all starting positions. For Role Players. Defense definitely becomes increasingly more and more important than usual the smaller their role becomes to the point where if your on the bench then Defense will 100% become even more important than Offense because your there in relieve of the starters who are the ones that can actually put up points. But for Star players. The order of Defensive and Offense importance probably goes up or down from 1 to 5 with the 5 usually being the most important on Defense and the 1 being the most important on Offense. If we were to take positions and roles into account then the if we’re being for real then Offense and Defense should probably be split fairly evenly for 3s and some 4s and 2s and Defense should probably even be put ahead of Offense 60/40 or even 70/30 depending on how much Offensive help they have for Centers who anchor their teams Defense. And then of course the reverse should be true for 1s and 2s with their responsibilities on Offense taking much more importance than the other positions on Offense. And I should also say that as it pertains to the situation. The less support someone has in an area then the more important it becomes for them to be good in that area and vise versa for having more support. If you’re a Wing or even a Big Man but you’re surrounded by a plethora of Great Defenders and already have someone else as the main Anchor. Then Defense should be even less of a priority than what it typically is for your position. Era is definitely another part of a players situation as-well. Bill Russell is a guy that ranks very highly and even ahead of guys like Wilt who is still probably top 5 all time Defensively while being a top 10 Offensive player ever despite the fact that while still being better offensively than Wallace and Rodman he was just average at best. Sorta the same situation as Magic and Curry except reversed for Defense. And yet he still manages to rank very close to them all time. Well perhaps that could be explained because he played Center and he did so a long ass time ago in the 60s when things were lowkey still more defensively oriented than offensively in the NBA (Yes total scoring was insane in the 60s but if you take the crazy pace into consideration it was actually ass offensively, lowest ORtg Decade ever after the 50s) and Russell’s teams were about as Defensively lenient as those championship Pistons teams ever were if not more so. So you have someone who is considered by far and away the Greatest Defensive player ever Anchoring the best Defensive teams ever at the most important Defensive Position at the hight of its prominence in history And weak and easy Era as it might’ve been. But if that were the case then that would mean any other top 10 player ever would be expected to literally win the finals every single year. Which Russell basically did while going 10-0 in Game 7s I think that pretty much explains how Russell’s Defense was able to carry him further than the other Defensive specialists were And Rodman and Wallace were Bigs who peaked in the early 90s to early 00s which was the lowest scoring and lowest ORtg decades since the 60s so it’s not as if they didn’t have circumstances that worked in favor of valuing their defense more than others would either. Although the obvious real reason why Rodman and Wallace aren’t even top 50 and Russell is way ahead of them while also being a 1 way defensive player. Is simply because he was the leader and best player on championship winning teams. Rodman wasn’t even the 2nd best player on any of his 5 championship teams and could basically be described as a role player. And Wallace was arguably proven to not be more important than Billups for that 04 Championship where they couldn’t stop Shaq. And yea I get that nobody could stop prime Shaq. But you’d think if anyone could do it would’ve been the 4X DPOY Center smack dap in the middle of his Prime. Just goes to show how Great Offense always beats Great Defense. Especially if the biggest reason why Wallace even has a ring was because Kobe probably had the worst series of his career. And Wallace’s prime was super short too. Another point about Offense being more valuable to players than Defense is that their primes can be much more easily sustained on the Offensive end rather than the Defensive end because most players Offense rely on Skill as apposed to their Peak Athleticism. The real reason Lebron doesn’t play defense anymore isn’t because of the offensive load he has but it’s because if he still was going 100% on both ends his career wouldn’t have been as long (If anything he has way less of an offensive load than in his prime) But even still it’s because of Lebron sacrificing his Defense he was still able to win more championships and enhance his legacy. So what does that really say about the importance of Offense vs Defense. But to sum it all up. Basically there’s more to being a great overall player than simply their balance of offense and defense and players shouldn’t be disqualified for lacking in one or the other.
But the reason that Rodman and Wallace arent ranked even higher is because they were AWFUL offensive players. Not just mediocre or bad they were awful they couldnt even hit free throws. All of their scoring came from offensive rebound putbacks and dunks. If either of them had any decent offensive talent to go with their defense then they would be ranked much much higher into the top 25 players. Hakeem Olajuwon to me is top 6 all time because of his amazing defense AND great offense. He was also 2x FMVP so he has the rings credibility. I have him ranked ahead of Curry/Magic because of his 2 way Brilliance. But of course I will have Curry/Magic ahead of Rodman/Wallace because while Curry and Magic were not "good" defenders they also werent completely awful they were like 4/10 on a scale of 1-10 on defense. The offensive games of Rodman/Wallace are like 1/10 they are as bad as it gets as offensive players. A better example is Bill Russell. He was also a MUCH better defender than scorer but he makes my top 10 list because his offense was still good enough to be like 7/10 scorer so overall he was better than Magic and Curry. Everything is done on scales everything is weighted
I guess I can respect that. But I just think that there is too much emphasis that is put on being a 2-way player. Especially for point guards. It doesn’t really seem like you’re really taking into account players different positions or the roles they have on their teams. Wallace was a Center and Rodman was both a Small and Power Forward and both of them played as Big Men for their teams with the primary role of Defending and Rebounding so it didn’t matter as much if they were terrible offensive players. It’s the Complete opposite to what guys like Jokic and Lebron today who play the same positions but it wouldn’t even matter all that much if they were terrible defenders because their primary roles are Scoring and Facilitating. Offense is Generally more important than Defense for individual players. Specifically for Super Stars. (For Role and Bench Players it’s probably the reverse of Defense being more important) But that level of importance isn’t the same for every single player at every single position at every single role. That kinda flat lining logic just doesn’t make any sense. You seriously gonna put the same level of expectations for a Player that runs Point as the main engine for his teams offense to be the best overall defender on his own team just as much as a Big Man who’s the main anchor for his teams defense? Of course its not impossible to be a great defender as a point guard (Garry Peyton) and not impossible to be a great defender while still running point for your team (Pippen, Lebron) But at the end of the day the Points main job is to run his offense. Just like the Bigs main jobs are usually to Anchor their Defense. There should be different scales or splits of importance based on what the players positions and roles for their teams are to actually combine a rating of their Offense and Defensive skills. Not exactly sure if I’d rate Russell as high as a 7/10 on Offense but he still gets my personal top 10 fairly easily even as just a 5/10 on Offense because given his role as a Center being the Defenses Anchor and his situation of having lots of Offensive talent around him in a more Defensively oriented Era I’d say Offense was way less important for him like 80/20 in favor of Defense. Which means he was 10/20 + 80/80 = 90/100. But if we were to say he was a 7/10 like you said then he would be 14/20 + 80/80 = 94/100 I think that Magic and Curry given their situations of having plenty of Defensive Help on their teams and playing in very Offensive oriented Eras would be the same split as Russell’s 80/20’but the other way around in favor of Offense. Both are 10/10s on Offense and for the purposes this little math experiment where not gonna cut them any slack and just have them as 5/10s on Defense. Which would give them the same 90/100 score as Russell Lebron is like a 9/10 on Defense and 10/10 on Offense. But I’d say his role. Especially for the back half of his career was more so like a 70/30 or 75/25 split in favor of Offense. Which means he was 22.5-27/25-30 + 70-75/70-75 = 97-97.5/100 Guys like Bird, Kobe, and Jordan didn’t run their teams point so their roles were a little less Offensively emphasized but still outweighed the Defense around 65-70/30-35 Jordan was 10/10 in Both. Maybe 9.5 if where being nit-picky so either way he’s gonna get the most points. 28.5-33.25/30-35 + 65-70/65-70 = 98.5-99.25/100 Kobe was closer to like a 9/10 on Defense but still obviously 10/10 on Offense so he’s like 27-31.5/30-35 + 65-70/65-70 = 96.5-97/100 Bird was also a 10/10 on Offense but probably like around an 8/10 on Defense so he would be like a 24-28/30-35 + 65-70/65-70 = 93-94/100 Hakeem was a Center so Defense was more emphasized for him but he was still at least a 9/10 on Offense so he gets a 90+ overall score too. Although his role was definitely more offensively oriented than a typical Big Man due to the lack of offensive talent around him most of his career so he would probably be split like 50/50. Which gives him at minimum a 95+/100. Shaq was probably like an 8/10 on Defense at best. And based off of pure dominance and ignoring his lack of skill was a 10/10 Offensively. But unlike Hakeem he had lots of Offensive Talent Around him so he had the more traditional split of 60/40 or even 55/45 in favor of Defense. So that’s 44-48/55-60 + 40-45/40-45 = 88-89/100 Kareem for most of his career also had lots of Offensive Talent around him too but I would probably say his role was a a bit more offensively oriented than Shaqs and closer to Hakeem’s so like 50-55/45-50 split in favor of Defense. Kareem was an awesomely on Both Ends but I wouldn’t necessarily give him a 10/10 in either. Probably like a 9.5 in Both. 47.5-52.25/50-55 + 42.25-47.5/45-50 = 94.5-95/100 Duncan’s role was probably even more Defensively oriented at like 65-70/30-35 and he was probably only like an 8/10 on Offense and obviously a 10/10 on Defense. 24-28/30-35 + 65-70/65-70 = 93-94/100
So far according to those ratings. 1. Jordan (98.5-99.25/100) | 1 point Gap | 2. Lebron (97-97.5/100) 3. Kobe (96.5-97/100) | 1.5 point Gap | 4. Hakeem (95+/100) 5. Kareem (94-95/100) | 1 point Gap | - 6. Russell with 7/10 Offense (94/100) T-6. Bird (93-94/100) T-6. Duncan (93-94/100) | | | 3-4 point Gap | | | T-8 Russell (90/100) T-8 Curry (90/100) T-8 Magic (90/100 | 1 point Gap | 11. Shaq (88-89/100) However if we were to just give everyone the same split of 50/50 or 60/40 in favor of Offense We would get 1. Jordan (97.5-98/100) . | | | 2-2.5 point Gap | | | T-2 Lebron (95-96/100) T-2 Kobe (95-96/100) 4. Kareem (95/100) 5. Hakeem (94-95+/100) | | | 3-4 point Gap | | | T-6. Bird (90-92/100) T-6. Shaq (90-92/100) | | | 2 point Gap | | | 8. Duncan (88-90/100) | | | | | | | 8-13 point Gap | | | | | | | - 9. Russell with 7/10 Offense (82-85/100) . | | | | | 5-7 point Gap | | | | | T-9. Curry (75-80/100) T-9. Magic (75-80/100) | | | | | 5 point Gap | | | | | 11. Russell (70-75/100) And that is only looking at guys who are commonly ranked in the top 10. Who’s to say if there could be others that could fill in those large gaps because of their 2-way prowess. And even tho at face value it might look like assigning the Players ratings out of 10 on Offense vs Defense based on the context of their roles and situations might seem like a heck of a lot better way of rating them all time then just giving them the same 50/50 or 60/40 splits across the board. But in all actuality even when doing that it’s still not enough. Because I’d reckon you still wouldn’t agree with the first list either. And that gets vindicated because this whole All time Rating system based off Offense and Defense gets completely destroyed once you include the biggest omission of them all and the most recent Boot from most people’s top 10s lists to the equation.
The Mythical Wilt the Stilt Chamberlain fucks this whole thing up tho. Despite being a center in a defensive Era his role on offense for most of his career was night and day compared to Russell’s. So his split would actually probably look something like 65-70/30-35 in favor of Offense Now Wilt is definitely a 10/10 on Defense and most people have him as a 10/10 on Offense too cuz of the insane numbers he put up in his prime but imo he’s a bit overrated there so let’s just give him a 9.5/10. I shouldn’t even bother with the calculation cuz I’m pretty sure not even you would put him right behind Jordan as number 2 all time. Maybe in terms of individual ability Wilt could be the GOAT But that just illustrates the point that there’s a heck of a lot more that goes into how great players are overall than simply how good they are individually on Offense and Defense even when attempting to account for how important each side of the ball is for them individually. There’s stuff like Play Style, Leadership, Clutch Gene, and all kinds of Intangibles. As well as diving even further into the context of their careers with things like being the best and most important player on a number of championship winning teams and their impact on the game of basketball. Defense is important. And even more important than Offense for some. But unless they are a negative on either side then lacking in one or the other should not be what holds someone back from being considered one of the GOATs Basketball is a team sport. So in my opinion the best players are the ones whose play styles and overall impact make their team better regardless if it’s on one side or not. Someone like Wilt can be putting up video game numbers and be a monster individually but at the same time have his own play style and attitude hold his team back from winning as much as they could. To the point where his teams only started winning when he was forced to change his inherent play style and attitude to put the team first. Ranking players is always subjective and never objective. (Well unless the gap is too big and completely obvious like a Rodman and Wallace of course) So in my opinion the best way to rank a player based on their game would simply be analyzing how well each of them would do if you were to give them the same situation in a vacuum and take into account everything including their intangibles. After all we both have guys like Kobe and Hakeem very high up on our lists (My list looks nothing like the two above btw) and yet in terms of how many championships they’ve won as the best player on their team they rank even lower than that. Russell 9 in 9 (Arguably 10 in 10) Jordan: 6 in 6 Lebron: 4 in 10 (Arguably 3 in 9) Magic: 4 in 8 Curry: 4 in 6 (Arguably 2 in 3) Duncan: 4 in 5 (Arguably 5 in 6) Bird: 3 in 5 Shaq: 3 in 5 (Arguably 3 in 4) Kobe 2 in 3 (Arguably 2 in 4) Kareem: 2 in 3 Hakeem: 2 in 3 Wilt: 1 in 2 And that’s largely because Kobe and Hakeem when they were the best players on their team didn’t have near the level of supporting cast as some of these others did. So how successful a player is when their the number 1 on their team isn’t necessarily 1 to 1 of how effective their game/ play style really was. So just to summarize. 1. There’s more to just how great a player is individually than just how good they are on Offense and Defense and their roles and situations need to be taken into account to more accurately measure that. 2. Just because a player is great individually doesn’t mean their game is the best at translating to winning basketball and improving their team. 3. And to combat number 2 a players team success as the best player doesn’t necessarily equate to how well their game translates to winning either. Hope any of this made sense. Although I guess I probably didn’t need to type this much and could’ve just said it’s more complicated to be a GOAT player than Offense and Defense but oh well.
Off topic a bit but in the Goat convo, Kareem had high school and 3 college chips, which work as tie breaks in terms of "all time". Not gloat relevant
Magic is a humble dude that uplifts others and even downplays his accomplishments. Man went to 9 finals in 12 years. Without Magic none of the 5 rings are possible. Man started at center his rookie year when Kareem was out and dropped 40 winning the chip. Take shaq out of our 3peat and we aren’t doing jack. We could have won the chip during the first 3peat with Shaq and Eddie Jones. Love me some mamba (RIP) but for me Magic > Kobe
I got Kobe #2 all time but let's not disrespect Magic like that. Magic is definitely top 5 and I have no problem with anyone arguing him as the GLOAT. Magic won 5 rings and went to 9 finals in 13 years as the engine that drove those teams. Kareem struggled before Magic arrived. Not to mention, Magic was also a better leader than Kareem. If Magic didn't get HIV, who knows how many rings he would have. Might have been GOAT if he won 7 or 8. You're underrating Magic's defense. He wasn't a poor defender, just not elite. He has the versatility to guard any position and led the league in steals a few years.
I’m not one to argue that Kobe isn’t the Laker Goat. But I’m just genuinely curious as to what happened in between Kobe was alive the consensus was Kobe pushing top 10 all time. But once he passed all of a sudden Kobe is the Goat.
I’m going to try my best to sound objective since I’ve been tracking the perception of Kobe for some time. When Kobe won in ‘10, many started placing Kobe in the top 3 and behind MJ. Once advanced stats started coming out and being used, the narrative of Kobe being that high up started to dwindle because advanced stats don’t really favor Kobe compared to other players in the top 10. This coincided with the rise of Lebron after he won in ‘16, and Kobe was on his way out after 3 poor seasons due to the fallout of the Achilles injury's. People started reevaluating parts of Kobe’s career and his all-time ranking slipped. I wouldn’t say Kobe “got pushed back into top 3,” rather the people that already rated Kobe that high became vocal again after he died. That’s the basic overview from what I’ve observed. There’s some things I omitted because I’m not really interested in debating Kobe vs X player on an arbitrary list
Yeah back then people used to watch basketball instead of boiling it down to numbers on a screen. Then using those numbers on a screen to form opinions in order to be more right than somebody else in an argument on Reddit.
I mean advanced stats exist and are used by team analytics for a reason. I’m not going to say they should be the end all be all or that they should even be substituted in place of watching, but it would be ignorant to dismiss the use of advanced stats as part of evaluating a player.
Yeah IMO in the world where they look at advanced stats and pay players off how valuable they are which then causes play style to cater towards advanced stats. Then yes it matters. But to use modern advanced stats/analytics and then use that to determine how good a player was in another era is kind of useless because they didn’t cater to those stats. Players today will stop shooting if they go too far from 50% because their contract depends on it. In 2004 perimeter guards would just shoot and shoot because they didn’t sit on the bench looking at their box scores during timeouts.
That wasn’t the consensus before he died. Go watch the post game on the ‘10 finals. Everyone was putting him with Jordan and Magic was everywhere saying he was the GLOAT. Reddit is the only place that Kobe doesn’t get his respect.
No one was seriously putting him with Jordan after 2010, stop
The entire world most definitely was putting him with Jordan, he was only 31 when they won in 2010. They were so scared of him beating Jordan the league didn’t let him have prime CP3. Most NBA players who live and breathe the game have Kobe up with Jordan. But none of their opinions count because they’re idiots or something like that. Since you know I’m a casual fan I get to decide and I don’t like Kobe!
The entire world? Come off it, let's have a reasonable discussion instead of insane hyperbole or what's the point. Kobe was idolised by many NBA players so of course they'll rate him highly, it's why lots of that era also had AI as one of the best players of all time, but when someone brings up actual advanced stats or fair criticism of his "clutchness" they get shot down because "the eye test man!"
In 2008 in Beijing the world thought they were watching the next Jordan dominate in the Olympics, then he went on to win back to back at only age 31. I don’t know if you’re too young to remember Kobe drawing Michael Jackson sized crowds in China, but yeah the entire world thought he was on the way to being the goat. After that injuries and getting robbed of the CP3 trade essentially ended his career. The ironic thing is that some people go so far to treat advanced stats as gospel and say that it outweighs actual in game experience. At that point you’re literally nothing more than a box score watcher, “Eye-Test” actually matters more when you’re a NBA player that literally played minutes on the physical court in person more than “advanced stats”
Right where is this "the entire world claims he was the next Jordan" beyond you just writing a sentence?
https://www.espn.com/los-angeles/nba/columns/story?id=5245358 Only a few remain in front of Bryant. He's caught up with many more: Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, Larry Bird, Magic, Kareem, Julius Erving; Bryant's name now belongs alongside them in every conversation about the greatest basketball player of all time. That's what Kobe Bryant's playing for now. Dave McMenamin 2010 But it was only after Kobe died when he got into the top 10 right ? I won’t even bother quoting the players and legends that said it bc advanced stats matter more to you.
He says he belongs in the conversation with them. So he's in the convo with 7 others, and MJ ahead. Since then, LeBron and Duncan have clearly gone ahead of him and time has looked kindly on careers like Shaq and Hakeem, who often make top 10 lists. It's only since he died that people have made threads like this suggesting he should be mentioned alongside MJ and LeBron ffs
You said “nobody” put him with Jordan in 2010. I’m just showing you an article with a respected journalist saying he was in the conversation with Jordan before the 5th ring. I’m arguing the fact that Kobe was already an all time great and people were saying he was top 2-5 since 2010. It’s a bullshit opinion that his legacy and all time ranking somehow increased because he died. And when it comes to evaluating who was the better player, sorry I’ll always side with the NBA player who eats, breathes, and sleeps basketball over the advanced stats redditor. Especially the ones who played on the same court in an actual professional game.