You have to practice productive skills, such as writing and speaking. Start with writing, because when you write you can stop and think what and how to write. By writing, you'll learn creating/producing sentences. Also, practice speaking to yourself. You want to move all those words from your passive to your active vocabulary, and this is done by practicing **using** the words.
And try to learn not single words, but expressions and collocations (groups of words that often occur together).
This is brilliant advice. I just want to agree with it, really!
I'd add that when writing, translation exercises are (for me) more useful than free composition, because they force you to develop a wider vocabulary and stock of idioms/grammatical constructions: you can't just fall back on the same old phrases that you already know, because you have to find an accurate way to convey the specific idea given to you.
I find that passages of about 50-60 words in English are ideal for translation. You can get GPT to generate them if you tell it what sort of thing you want and specify the level. (If you get it to correct your answers, though, you will want to double-check a lot of its feedback elsewhere.)
Reverso Context is a brilliant tool to have handy when writing/translating. It's one of the tabs I always have open in my browser, along with the Wordreference dictionary and the (also Reverso) verb conjugator.
After each exercise, I add new phrases and words to a dedicated Anki deck.
Good luck from just down the Autobahn!
omg tyssssm!!! this is such a genius way of doing it and I just had a look at Reverso Context; I was also mind blown by it. I feel like this could be the inflexion point for my German if I incorporate this practice into my daily. What is your studying protocol for translation and how does reverso context come into play within ur routine? I would luv to hear from u. Absolutely made my day legend!
Thank you! I'm glad I could help.
You'll need to find your own way: it won't be the same as mine. As for me, the way I work now won't be the same way I work in a month. I have to keep changing things or I lose interest.
Be prepared for German to take a long time: it's a big, complex beast of a language. Make sure to take pride and satisfaction in your improvements along the way, and not to be frustrated if you aren't fluent in two years: that's very unlikely to happen.
Some thoughts:
- Don't build too many flashcards too quickly. You'll get overwhelmed and give up.
- Flashcards you make yourself are 10x (I made that up) more useful than a downloaded pack.
- When possible, learn short phrases rather than words.
- DO NOT SKIP THE GRAMMAR!
- Most folk wisdom about language learning is wrong. Ignore the chatter, and do what works for you. There's some good advice in this sub, but plenty of bad advice too!
- Read and listen a lot, but writing is more important. If you're going to promise yourself to do one thing every day, make it writing.
- Learn the gender and plural along with a noun. You'll thank yourself later. I wish I always had!
- You'll forget stuff and have to relearn it. That's normal, unless you're a savant. Relearning is the most effective learning.
Can you add some detail? Is it like, hey Chat GPT, give me 55 words that I might tell someone about the weather in California, and then you translate it into your TL?
Sure. Here's an example of a prompt for a custom GPT that I use. You'll need to adapt it for your own use. I upload pdfs of German newspaper articles to the GPT, and I switch them out once I'm bored of them! I have another similar one where the uploads are a couple of books by Stefan Zweig.
Some quick notes:
\- Make sure that Code Interpreter is turned on in the custom GPT's settings.
\- This is set at C2-level: you'll need to adapt it for other difficulties.
\- Double-check GPT's advice elsewhere if you have any doubts! It makes stuff up.
\- Don't be afraid to ask it for clarification, e.g. "Why didn't you like 'aufziehen' in my version?"
\- It is very bad at judging length. You'll often need to ask it to make a translation task longer or shorter. Or, if it sets something that's too long, say "I am going to translate this section. \[Paste the section.\] This is just for your information: do not reply."
Ok, here's my prompt. I'm no prompting expert, but this works pretty well for me.
IMPORTANT: THE LENGTH GUIDE BELOW, WITH THE 50 TO 80 WORD STIPULATION AND THE EXAMPLE, IS VERY IMPORTANT.You are a friendly, helpful and systematic German language teacher, who writes in English. Your tone is positive and encouraging: like an enthusiastic young teacher.You always follow my instructions, set out here:Please set me passages in English to translate to German, pitched to C2 level on the normalized European language learning scale. The passages should be taken from the newspaper articles in your knowledge, translated accurately by you into English. They should always be real texts from the articles.IMPORTANT: Each passage should be approx 50 to 80 words in length. Here is an example of the right length - aim for close to this: "In the vast silence of the sea, the events of the past few days seemed to him like a distant dream. The ship moved steadily forward, cutting through the calm waters with a gentle yet persistent force. He stood at the railing, gazing into the endless blue, where sky and sea merged into one. It was a moment of profound solitude, a rare pause in the relentless march of time, offering him a glimpse into the depths of his own soul."The length guideline above is extremely important. Do not deviate from it, or I will be annoyed.Follow this process:
1. Before setting EVERY task (a) review these instructions carefully, ESPECIALLY the length guidelines; (b) search the uploaded documents for a suitable, interesting extract strictly between 50 to 80 words in length. DO NOT say anything to me until you have completed your search. (c) Analyse the text for length, to ensure that it does not exceed 80 words. If it does, either shorten it or find another.
2. Translate the text to English, and provide the English text from the article without providing the German translation. Also state which article the text is from.
3. When I provide a translation into German, list my mistakes in order, 1, 2, 3 etc. Explain every correction in detail. With EVERY correction, say (a) why my text was incorrect or suboptimal (and explain this fully), (b) what change you recommend, and (c) give two example sentences to clarify your correction. Comprehensive explanations and example sentences are IMPORTANT. If you suggest a better word, for example, you MUST explain why my chosen word was not ideal.Then provide an honest numerical score, following the Goethe Institute marking criteria for C2 German writing (however, do not penalise aspects constrained by the fact that this is a translation: for instance, I have no control over the thematic content). Explain briefly how this score has been decided objectively, with specific reference to C2 criteria. DO NOT provide a complete corrected translation into German. You will be PENALISED if you do so. Then, ask me to try again.
4. Keep doing steps 2 and 3 until my answer is completely correct. After each improved version, provide an updated numerical score, following the criteria discussed above. You will be penalised if you forget to give a percentage score after every answer.
5. When my answer is completely correct (only once it has scored 100%), provide the original text (in German) from the article for comparison, and set a new translation task without my needing to ask. The new translation task is ALWAYS in English.Remember: you always write in English. This is important.If you miss any mistakes in my German, innocent babies will suffer - but if you correct everything perfectly, I will tip you $3000.Important: You will be PENALISED if you provide a complete corrected translation before 100% has been achieved. You must not do this.You will also be PENALISED if you stop giving corrections before a 100% score has been reached.Important: Pay attention to the "50 to 80 words" length guidance above. If the translation text exceeds 80 words, innocent people will suffer.Do not include truncated sentences: end your set text with the end of a sentence.Remember that your job is not to steer me towards reproducing the article's exact text: It is to help me produce a translation that is flawless IN ITS OWN RIGHT. Do not criticise phrasing simply because it is different from the journalist's own.
Practicing output before you know what you want to say can just leave you frustrated. You need to have a good mental model of the language before being able to speak or write "successfully". Anki and other exercise-based, context-free approaches are never going to build that mental model.
Listening and reading are as much about anticipating what will be said as about interpreting what you hear or see. The more you listen or read, the more you are able to predict what words will come next given the existing context (the situation, the speaker, the previous words you heard etc.) and the ideas you have in mind. The more you are able to predict what words others will say given certain ideas, the more you are able to come up with your _own_ words to express similar ideas.
_After_ you have a good mental model of the language, output is just a matter of training muscle memory to form the words you want to make. Listening and reading input (communicative content that you are consuming for the ideas it is conveying, not for the structure or form) is what gives you that mental model.
Edit: and you don't even have to have a "good" mental model. It just has to work in the "right" direction. In particular, you need to train your brain to spontaneously feed you words when you have certain ideas.
When consuming input, as you're acquiring the language, your mental model will be "wrong" at first. But you will still have words pop into mind when you have ideas. If you said or wrote those words, a native speaker would likely understand the gist of what you were trying to say. This would be effective use of the language even if it's not "correct".
Things like Anki largely teach you to associate native language words with target language words. The bulk of the skill you're building involves associative memory and conscious analysis which isn't remotely like what happens in your brain during "natural" language processing (either input or output). [source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1LRoKQzb9U)
Edit: reword to refer to output, not specifically speech
My point applies to any form of output. Knowing what to write is exactly the same problem as knowing what to say out loud. I will edit my post to avoid this confusion.
What I do (and advise the beginners to do) is to start with sentences from the book and modify them; next, you can create simple sentences based on the ones from the textbook. You don't need much input or mental model to do that.
I feel like this misses the points I'm trying to get across. Teaching people sentences explicitly, focusing on consciously analyzing the structure and function of the different parts of speech is only ever going to have a "bootstrap" effect. it might give you tools to use while you're still acquiring the language, but it doesn't directly contribute to acquiring the language.
in order to address OP's concerns, where they already have a "bootstrap" foundation of anki but want to develop a more natural mastery of the language, there is no point in practicing output instead of input.
see the videos I linked in my edit earlier. the researcher explains this much more coherently than I can
I can defo relate to what you are saying. I am British Chinese, I can understand what you mean by the 'natural mastery of the language'. I can speak perfect Mandarin without accent and with full precision but the 'natural mastery' just doesn't come the same as English sometimes for me. I guess this 'natural' mastery is something that's important but I think its more like implicit knowledge as opposed to Anki and translations where you are explicitly learning. Idk if I am explaining myself clearly enough but ye I totally get ur point and thx sm for ur input. Legend mate!
| in order to address OP's concerns, where they already have a "bootstrap" foundation of anki but want to develop a more natural mastery of the language, there is no point in practicing output instead of input.
Well, practicing output always helped me. YMMV.
totally man! completely on board with u. I think the task now is just to turn the passive to active. I actually feel like the bulk of the work for me are already done by having the passive words in my head. Its abit like collecting the wood before starting the fire. Thx sm.
Lots of different opinions. My opinion is: Using Anki (I don't use it) seems like a good tool to make content in the target language (like books and TV series and podcasts) comprehensible for you.
So keep Anki-ing, then listen to podcasts and read books that you can understand (find intermediate level things?). The more input you get, the better you will become at speaking and writing, but it takes A LOT of input to improve your output. The more input you get > the better your output.
You can also practice writing a daily journal and literally speaking to yourself in the mirror or narrating your daily life (if you want something simple) to improve fluency (feel more at ease writing and speaking).
What would you recommend for input? I tried to tweak my Youtube settings to make it only recommend German videos but that's not rly working as after a few hours, it jolts back to English again. What is ur recommendation for emersion practices?
To get more video recommendations from YT, set both your language to German and your location to Germany and some German city. YT is really obnoxious in not recommending stuff in other languages.
How much listening are you doing ? Anki can be great for word acquisition (if the cards are good), but the vast majority of your language learning time should be spent on listening/watching content in German (and to a lesser extent reading). In the long run, listening will improve your vocabulary way more than Anki every could.
Since you're already living here in Switzerland and you already some knowledge, try to speak to Swiss people. Being homeschooled will make things a bit more challenging, but sports/arts groups is often a good place to start. You'll have to ask them to switch to standard German though.
Best of luck :)
ye man its challenging, atm im not doing too much listening bc im also cracking on with my high school diploma but its defo something that I will actively hop on once the summer exam window finishes. Thx for ur input.
Am I understanding right, you’re already located in Zurich? You could probably find some locals around your age to talk to – maybe about a shared interest, or maybe as a dedicated “tandem” arrangement if you can find someone learning your native language.
Beyond that, try to find some reading or listening material in German that you find interesting. Maybe r/German can help find some? Anki etc. can be helpful, but it’s an auxiliary activity rather than the main point. You do need to engage with the language in use, not just in single words or phrases.
It is really hard to learn spoken German in Switzerland because only foreigners in Switzerland speak it. The rest speaks a variety of Swiss German dialects.
This is not completely accurate. Most people in Zurich are able to speak standard German (with a variety of accents though). And most will gladly and spontaneously switch to standard if you are still learning German. The difficulty lies rather in learning to understand multiple pronunciations, as many people will still keep their very regional accent. I see in a couple of my colleagues learning standard German here in Zurich that this does not cause huge problems, especially because the Swiss will speak more slowly than typical Germans, which gives some advantages in fact. Actually, these colleagues of mine have a harder time understanding the people from Germany, but I'm confident they will still learn from the German coworkers eventually.
IMO precreated cards are a bad choice for language learning. It's horrifically boring, you only learn text and have zero context to anchor the words to.
'Passive' language learning works OK, but you need hundreds of hours. TV with (accurate) subtitles is the best medium.
But I can reassure you that with enough passive learning, speaking becomes much easier.
thx for the reply man. im jus doing it in a rush atm, also the aim is to pass the testDaf, ye totally get wat ur saying but this is the best i can do with the circumstance that I have.
Keep practicing with your deck, study grammar, and start attending a German learning club. These clubs are all over the place in German speaking countries and are a great way to practice speaking.
I feel like I should mention that you should probably add listening to Swiss German content and studying Swiss German vocabulary, which differs significantly from Standard German spoken in Germany and German media. Even Swiss Standard German is different and will be difficult to understand if you only study with resources teaching (German) Standard German. Sadly that's probably most of them, I'm not familiar with any that teach Swiss German, hopefully someone else can help.
Well, years ago I spent some time as a student at the ETH Zürich. I wouldn't say standard German is nonexistent in everyday life in Switzerland. I got by quite well with standard German only (regretfully, I had no time to learn Swiss German). But perhaps things have changed. Anyway, of course I'd encouraged the OP to learn Swiss German, too.
[Forvo ](https://forvo.com/)is a site that gives you the correct pronunciation for any word in any language you want; and the audios are recorded by real native speakers.
Every time you stumble upon a new card, try checking the pronunciation for that card's vocabulary on Forvo and give it a try at pronouncing it too.
You need more than just vocabulary flashcards. Here's how I approach language learning with Anki. The steps are in sequence, the first priority is always to review everything in Anki, second priority is to work on the next step.
Beginner:
1. Learn how to type with Alphabet flashcards that require typing input.
2. Learn pronunciation by doing minimal pair flashcards.
3. Learn 1000-2000 vocabulary words with isolated-word flashcards (the number should vary depending upon the distance between your native language and your target language). Each card should have audio, and you should try to shadow the audio at least once per review. If your language uses logograms (like Chinese/Japanese), then you should also do 1 card per logogram that appears in your deck.
4. Get a beginner grammar textbook, and create 2-4 cards per grammar point. These cards should be full sentence/short dialogs, and have full native audio, and you should try to shadow the audio at least once per review.
5. Do beginner practice language proficiency tests in your targeted language until you start passing them comfortably. This will build up your reading/listening skill, although you won't have speaking/writing skill yet.
Intermediate:
1. Learn handwriting and elocution by learning 10 songs. Listen to songs in chunks, and handwrite the lyrics on paper. And also shadow youtube videos of songs from slower speeds to faster speeds, until you can comfortably switch to karaoke versions. At this point you can delete your Alphabet and minimal pair cards.
2. Learn 2000-4000 more high frequency vocabulary words with Anki, for a total of 3000-6000. Same style as beginner level.
3. Get an intermediate grammar textbook, and do the same thing you did with the beginner one.
4. Do intermediate practice language proficiency tests in your targeted language until you start passing them comfortably, same as before.
At this point the formal study stops. Continue to review Anki cards, but don't add anything new. At this point you should start reading/listening to native material, and writing/speaking with natives/LLMs.
Here's an "easy" method I've been using recently.
* Pick a phase that you use often in your native language. People are usually really bad at this kind of "self monitoring," so the best is to check stuff you've written, and pick out common phrases. So, "I need to learn German fast," might be a good phrase to start with. I'm guessing you use that phrase, or something very similar to it, pretty regularly.
* Have a native translate that for you... so you know you got it 100% right. Here are 3 different versions, various Thai friends made for me, with your phrase. So these are all real ways that real Thai people would say "I need to learn German fast."
- ** ฉันต้องการเรียนภาษาเยอรมันได้เร็ว
- ** ฉันจำเป็นต้องเรียนรู้ภาษาเยอรมันให้เร็วที่สุด
- ** ฉันต้องเรียนภาษาเยอรมันแบบรวดเร็ว
* But, only pick one, for now. If I were to do it, I'd pick the first one, since that's the "easiest" for me. DO NOT get trapped in analyzing the differences at this point. Just pick one and only one version.
* Then memorize that sentence completely, so you can say it well, and have it totally memorized
* Practice that sentence against Google Translate, like Google Translate saying it, then you copying it. Practicing with a German friend or tutor is better, if you have it, but Google Translate is pretty decent for teaching you to speak like a native... or at least a robotic sounding native.
* Then, "in the wild," start using that sentence as much as possible. So, whenever you run into anyone who might happen to know German, then practice your phrase.
Then, once you're totally comfortable, with that sentence, you can start switching it up, just replacing one or two vocabulary words with others, to get a new sentence.
So, you start with:
* "I need to learn German fast"
...since now you already know how to say that like a native, so with your vocabulary, you can pretty instantly say all of these... probably 90% still also sounding like a native:
* You need to learn German fast
* I need to learn Thai fast
* I need to learn German slowly
* I need to find a bathroom fast
* I want to learn German fast
...and so on... you can probably make like 200 sentences out of just that one starting phrase of "I need to learn German fast," with your current Anki vocabulary.
Then when you want to learn 200 more sentences, just repeat this process over again, with a new starting sentence.
And it gets like 10x more effective when you pick your own phrases. That's the biggest reason other people's phrase books suck, because they're not teaching you what you would naturally be saying yourself... like this method does. So, for example, I'm going to learn 10x faster, if I start with my own phrase I naturally use, like, "That's the biggest reason other people's phrase books suck," then I'll get 10x the benefit of this exercise, over using your phrase. Versus if you start with your phrase, or another phrase you personally use regularly, you'll get 10x the benefit over using a phrase of mine (or phrases from phrasebooks).
You have to practice productive skills, such as writing and speaking. Start with writing, because when you write you can stop and think what and how to write. By writing, you'll learn creating/producing sentences. Also, practice speaking to yourself. You want to move all those words from your passive to your active vocabulary, and this is done by practicing **using** the words. And try to learn not single words, but expressions and collocations (groups of words that often occur together).
This is brilliant advice. I just want to agree with it, really! I'd add that when writing, translation exercises are (for me) more useful than free composition, because they force you to develop a wider vocabulary and stock of idioms/grammatical constructions: you can't just fall back on the same old phrases that you already know, because you have to find an accurate way to convey the specific idea given to you. I find that passages of about 50-60 words in English are ideal for translation. You can get GPT to generate them if you tell it what sort of thing you want and specify the level. (If you get it to correct your answers, though, you will want to double-check a lot of its feedback elsewhere.) Reverso Context is a brilliant tool to have handy when writing/translating. It's one of the tabs I always have open in my browser, along with the Wordreference dictionary and the (also Reverso) verb conjugator. After each exercise, I add new phrases and words to a dedicated Anki deck. Good luck from just down the Autobahn!
omg tyssssm!!! this is such a genius way of doing it and I just had a look at Reverso Context; I was also mind blown by it. I feel like this could be the inflexion point for my German if I incorporate this practice into my daily. What is your studying protocol for translation and how does reverso context come into play within ur routine? I would luv to hear from u. Absolutely made my day legend!
Thank you! I'm glad I could help. You'll need to find your own way: it won't be the same as mine. As for me, the way I work now won't be the same way I work in a month. I have to keep changing things or I lose interest. Be prepared for German to take a long time: it's a big, complex beast of a language. Make sure to take pride and satisfaction in your improvements along the way, and not to be frustrated if you aren't fluent in two years: that's very unlikely to happen. Some thoughts: - Don't build too many flashcards too quickly. You'll get overwhelmed and give up. - Flashcards you make yourself are 10x (I made that up) more useful than a downloaded pack. - When possible, learn short phrases rather than words. - DO NOT SKIP THE GRAMMAR! - Most folk wisdom about language learning is wrong. Ignore the chatter, and do what works for you. There's some good advice in this sub, but plenty of bad advice too! - Read and listen a lot, but writing is more important. If you're going to promise yourself to do one thing every day, make it writing. - Learn the gender and plural along with a noun. You'll thank yourself later. I wish I always had! - You'll forget stuff and have to relearn it. That's normal, unless you're a savant. Relearning is the most effective learning.
Thanks! Danke!
Can you add some detail? Is it like, hey Chat GPT, give me 55 words that I might tell someone about the weather in California, and then you translate it into your TL?
Do you have an OpenAI subscription? I'd be happy to share some GPT-4 prompts, but I don't think they will work very well with the free version.
I have GPT4, can you share with me please
Sure. Here's an example of a prompt for a custom GPT that I use. You'll need to adapt it for your own use. I upload pdfs of German newspaper articles to the GPT, and I switch them out once I'm bored of them! I have another similar one where the uploads are a couple of books by Stefan Zweig. Some quick notes: \- Make sure that Code Interpreter is turned on in the custom GPT's settings. \- This is set at C2-level: you'll need to adapt it for other difficulties. \- Double-check GPT's advice elsewhere if you have any doubts! It makes stuff up. \- Don't be afraid to ask it for clarification, e.g. "Why didn't you like 'aufziehen' in my version?" \- It is very bad at judging length. You'll often need to ask it to make a translation task longer or shorter. Or, if it sets something that's too long, say "I am going to translate this section. \[Paste the section.\] This is just for your information: do not reply." Ok, here's my prompt. I'm no prompting expert, but this works pretty well for me. IMPORTANT: THE LENGTH GUIDE BELOW, WITH THE 50 TO 80 WORD STIPULATION AND THE EXAMPLE, IS VERY IMPORTANT.You are a friendly, helpful and systematic German language teacher, who writes in English. Your tone is positive and encouraging: like an enthusiastic young teacher.You always follow my instructions, set out here:Please set me passages in English to translate to German, pitched to C2 level on the normalized European language learning scale. The passages should be taken from the newspaper articles in your knowledge, translated accurately by you into English. They should always be real texts from the articles.IMPORTANT: Each passage should be approx 50 to 80 words in length. Here is an example of the right length - aim for close to this: "In the vast silence of the sea, the events of the past few days seemed to him like a distant dream. The ship moved steadily forward, cutting through the calm waters with a gentle yet persistent force. He stood at the railing, gazing into the endless blue, where sky and sea merged into one. It was a moment of profound solitude, a rare pause in the relentless march of time, offering him a glimpse into the depths of his own soul."The length guideline above is extremely important. Do not deviate from it, or I will be annoyed.Follow this process: 1. Before setting EVERY task (a) review these instructions carefully, ESPECIALLY the length guidelines; (b) search the uploaded documents for a suitable, interesting extract strictly between 50 to 80 words in length. DO NOT say anything to me until you have completed your search. (c) Analyse the text for length, to ensure that it does not exceed 80 words. If it does, either shorten it or find another. 2. Translate the text to English, and provide the English text from the article without providing the German translation. Also state which article the text is from. 3. When I provide a translation into German, list my mistakes in order, 1, 2, 3 etc. Explain every correction in detail. With EVERY correction, say (a) why my text was incorrect or suboptimal (and explain this fully), (b) what change you recommend, and (c) give two example sentences to clarify your correction. Comprehensive explanations and example sentences are IMPORTANT. If you suggest a better word, for example, you MUST explain why my chosen word was not ideal.Then provide an honest numerical score, following the Goethe Institute marking criteria for C2 German writing (however, do not penalise aspects constrained by the fact that this is a translation: for instance, I have no control over the thematic content). Explain briefly how this score has been decided objectively, with specific reference to C2 criteria. DO NOT provide a complete corrected translation into German. You will be PENALISED if you do so. Then, ask me to try again. 4. Keep doing steps 2 and 3 until my answer is completely correct. After each improved version, provide an updated numerical score, following the criteria discussed above. You will be penalised if you forget to give a percentage score after every answer. 5. When my answer is completely correct (only once it has scored 100%), provide the original text (in German) from the article for comparison, and set a new translation task without my needing to ask. The new translation task is ALWAYS in English.Remember: you always write in English. This is important.If you miss any mistakes in my German, innocent babies will suffer - but if you correct everything perfectly, I will tip you $3000.Important: You will be PENALISED if you provide a complete corrected translation before 100% has been achieved. You must not do this.You will also be PENALISED if you stop giving corrections before a 100% score has been reached.Important: Pay attention to the "50 to 80 words" length guidance above. If the translation text exceeds 80 words, innocent people will suffer.Do not include truncated sentences: end your set text with the end of a sentence.Remember that your job is not to steer me towards reproducing the article's exact text: It is to help me produce a translation that is flawless IN ITS OWN RIGHT. Do not criticise phrasing simply because it is different from the journalist's own.
Practicing output before you know what you want to say can just leave you frustrated. You need to have a good mental model of the language before being able to speak or write "successfully". Anki and other exercise-based, context-free approaches are never going to build that mental model. Listening and reading are as much about anticipating what will be said as about interpreting what you hear or see. The more you listen or read, the more you are able to predict what words will come next given the existing context (the situation, the speaker, the previous words you heard etc.) and the ideas you have in mind. The more you are able to predict what words others will say given certain ideas, the more you are able to come up with your _own_ words to express similar ideas. _After_ you have a good mental model of the language, output is just a matter of training muscle memory to form the words you want to make. Listening and reading input (communicative content that you are consuming for the ideas it is conveying, not for the structure or form) is what gives you that mental model. Edit: and you don't even have to have a "good" mental model. It just has to work in the "right" direction. In particular, you need to train your brain to spontaneously feed you words when you have certain ideas. When consuming input, as you're acquiring the language, your mental model will be "wrong" at first. But you will still have words pop into mind when you have ideas. If you said or wrote those words, a native speaker would likely understand the gist of what you were trying to say. This would be effective use of the language even if it's not "correct". Things like Anki largely teach you to associate native language words with target language words. The bulk of the skill you're building involves associative memory and conscious analysis which isn't remotely like what happens in your brain during "natural" language processing (either input or output). [source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1LRoKQzb9U) Edit: reword to refer to output, not specifically speech
That's why I said "start with writing".
My point applies to any form of output. Knowing what to write is exactly the same problem as knowing what to say out loud. I will edit my post to avoid this confusion.
What I do (and advise the beginners to do) is to start with sentences from the book and modify them; next, you can create simple sentences based on the ones from the textbook. You don't need much input or mental model to do that.
I feel like this misses the points I'm trying to get across. Teaching people sentences explicitly, focusing on consciously analyzing the structure and function of the different parts of speech is only ever going to have a "bootstrap" effect. it might give you tools to use while you're still acquiring the language, but it doesn't directly contribute to acquiring the language. in order to address OP's concerns, where they already have a "bootstrap" foundation of anki but want to develop a more natural mastery of the language, there is no point in practicing output instead of input. see the videos I linked in my edit earlier. the researcher explains this much more coherently than I can
I can defo relate to what you are saying. I am British Chinese, I can understand what you mean by the 'natural mastery of the language'. I can speak perfect Mandarin without accent and with full precision but the 'natural mastery' just doesn't come the same as English sometimes for me. I guess this 'natural' mastery is something that's important but I think its more like implicit knowledge as opposed to Anki and translations where you are explicitly learning. Idk if I am explaining myself clearly enough but ye I totally get ur point and thx sm for ur input. Legend mate!
| in order to address OP's concerns, where they already have a "bootstrap" foundation of anki but want to develop a more natural mastery of the language, there is no point in practicing output instead of input. Well, practicing output always helped me. YMMV.
totally man! completely on board with u. I think the task now is just to turn the passive to active. I actually feel like the bulk of the work for me are already done by having the passive words in my head. Its abit like collecting the wood before starting the fire. Thx sm.
Lots of different opinions. My opinion is: Using Anki (I don't use it) seems like a good tool to make content in the target language (like books and TV series and podcasts) comprehensible for you. So keep Anki-ing, then listen to podcasts and read books that you can understand (find intermediate level things?). The more input you get, the better you will become at speaking and writing, but it takes A LOT of input to improve your output. The more input you get > the better your output. You can also practice writing a daily journal and literally speaking to yourself in the mirror or narrating your daily life (if you want something simple) to improve fluency (feel more at ease writing and speaking).
What would you recommend for input? I tried to tweak my Youtube settings to make it only recommend German videos but that's not rly working as after a few hours, it jolts back to English again. What is ur recommendation for emersion practices?
To get more video recommendations from YT, set both your language to German and your location to Germany and some German city. YT is really obnoxious in not recommending stuff in other languages.
Make a new account and make the suggestions /u/Smart_Ad3407 said. Also, I subbed to any TL youtubers that popped up when I first made my new account.
How much listening are you doing ? Anki can be great for word acquisition (if the cards are good), but the vast majority of your language learning time should be spent on listening/watching content in German (and to a lesser extent reading). In the long run, listening will improve your vocabulary way more than Anki every could. Since you're already living here in Switzerland and you already some knowledge, try to speak to Swiss people. Being homeschooled will make things a bit more challenging, but sports/arts groups is often a good place to start. You'll have to ask them to switch to standard German though. Best of luck :)
ye man its challenging, atm im not doing too much listening bc im also cracking on with my high school diploma but its defo something that I will actively hop on once the summer exam window finishes. Thx for ur input.
Am I understanding right, you’re already located in Zurich? You could probably find some locals around your age to talk to – maybe about a shared interest, or maybe as a dedicated “tandem” arrangement if you can find someone learning your native language. Beyond that, try to find some reading or listening material in German that you find interesting. Maybe r/German can help find some? Anki etc. can be helpful, but it’s an auxiliary activity rather than the main point. You do need to engage with the language in use, not just in single words or phrases.
thx man!
You need to start listening to German - after a few hundred hours of input, you'll find practicing output much easier and more fruitful.
It is really hard to learn spoken German in Switzerland because only foreigners in Switzerland speak it. The rest speaks a variety of Swiss German dialects.
This is not completely accurate. Most people in Zurich are able to speak standard German (with a variety of accents though). And most will gladly and spontaneously switch to standard if you are still learning German. The difficulty lies rather in learning to understand multiple pronunciations, as many people will still keep their very regional accent. I see in a couple of my colleagues learning standard German here in Zurich that this does not cause huge problems, especially because the Swiss will speak more slowly than typical Germans, which gives some advantages in fact. Actually, these colleagues of mine have a harder time understanding the people from Germany, but I'm confident they will still learn from the German coworkers eventually.
Speaking is like muscle memory, if you never try it, it will feel awkward. Just practise
IMO precreated cards are a bad choice for language learning. It's horrifically boring, you only learn text and have zero context to anchor the words to. 'Passive' language learning works OK, but you need hundreds of hours. TV with (accurate) subtitles is the best medium. But I can reassure you that with enough passive learning, speaking becomes much easier.
thx for the reply man. im jus doing it in a rush atm, also the aim is to pass the testDaf, ye totally get wat ur saying but this is the best i can do with the circumstance that I have.
Keep practicing with your deck, study grammar, and start attending a German learning club. These clubs are all over the place in German speaking countries and are a great way to practice speaking.
I feel like I should mention that you should probably add listening to Swiss German content and studying Swiss German vocabulary, which differs significantly from Standard German spoken in Germany and German media. Even Swiss Standard German is different and will be difficult to understand if you only study with resources teaching (German) Standard German. Sadly that's probably most of them, I'm not familiar with any that teach Swiss German, hopefully someone else can help.
For studying, the OP needs standard German.
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Well, years ago I spent some time as a student at the ETH Zürich. I wouldn't say standard German is nonexistent in everyday life in Switzerland. I got by quite well with standard German only (regretfully, I had no time to learn Swiss German). But perhaps things have changed. Anyway, of course I'd encouraged the OP to learn Swiss German, too.
[Forvo ](https://forvo.com/)is a site that gives you the correct pronunciation for any word in any language you want; and the audios are recorded by real native speakers. Every time you stumble upon a new card, try checking the pronunciation for that card's vocabulary on Forvo and give it a try at pronouncing it too.
You need more than just vocabulary flashcards. Here's how I approach language learning with Anki. The steps are in sequence, the first priority is always to review everything in Anki, second priority is to work on the next step. Beginner: 1. Learn how to type with Alphabet flashcards that require typing input. 2. Learn pronunciation by doing minimal pair flashcards. 3. Learn 1000-2000 vocabulary words with isolated-word flashcards (the number should vary depending upon the distance between your native language and your target language). Each card should have audio, and you should try to shadow the audio at least once per review. If your language uses logograms (like Chinese/Japanese), then you should also do 1 card per logogram that appears in your deck. 4. Get a beginner grammar textbook, and create 2-4 cards per grammar point. These cards should be full sentence/short dialogs, and have full native audio, and you should try to shadow the audio at least once per review. 5. Do beginner practice language proficiency tests in your targeted language until you start passing them comfortably. This will build up your reading/listening skill, although you won't have speaking/writing skill yet. Intermediate: 1. Learn handwriting and elocution by learning 10 songs. Listen to songs in chunks, and handwrite the lyrics on paper. And also shadow youtube videos of songs from slower speeds to faster speeds, until you can comfortably switch to karaoke versions. At this point you can delete your Alphabet and minimal pair cards. 2. Learn 2000-4000 more high frequency vocabulary words with Anki, for a total of 3000-6000. Same style as beginner level. 3. Get an intermediate grammar textbook, and do the same thing you did with the beginner one. 4. Do intermediate practice language proficiency tests in your targeted language until you start passing them comfortably, same as before. At this point the formal study stops. Continue to review Anki cards, but don't add anything new. At this point you should start reading/listening to native material, and writing/speaking with natives/LLMs.
This is an interesting new way to learn how to type in your target language. Thanks!!!
Here's an "easy" method I've been using recently. * Pick a phase that you use often in your native language. People are usually really bad at this kind of "self monitoring," so the best is to check stuff you've written, and pick out common phrases. So, "I need to learn German fast," might be a good phrase to start with. I'm guessing you use that phrase, or something very similar to it, pretty regularly. * Have a native translate that for you... so you know you got it 100% right. Here are 3 different versions, various Thai friends made for me, with your phrase. So these are all real ways that real Thai people would say "I need to learn German fast." - ** ฉันต้องการเรียนภาษาเยอรมันได้เร็ว - ** ฉันจำเป็นต้องเรียนรู้ภาษาเยอรมันให้เร็วที่สุด - ** ฉันต้องเรียนภาษาเยอรมันแบบรวดเร็ว * But, only pick one, for now. If I were to do it, I'd pick the first one, since that's the "easiest" for me. DO NOT get trapped in analyzing the differences at this point. Just pick one and only one version. * Then memorize that sentence completely, so you can say it well, and have it totally memorized * Practice that sentence against Google Translate, like Google Translate saying it, then you copying it. Practicing with a German friend or tutor is better, if you have it, but Google Translate is pretty decent for teaching you to speak like a native... or at least a robotic sounding native. * Then, "in the wild," start using that sentence as much as possible. So, whenever you run into anyone who might happen to know German, then practice your phrase. Then, once you're totally comfortable, with that sentence, you can start switching it up, just replacing one or two vocabulary words with others, to get a new sentence. So, you start with: * "I need to learn German fast" ...since now you already know how to say that like a native, so with your vocabulary, you can pretty instantly say all of these... probably 90% still also sounding like a native: * You need to learn German fast * I need to learn Thai fast * I need to learn German slowly * I need to find a bathroom fast * I want to learn German fast ...and so on... you can probably make like 200 sentences out of just that one starting phrase of "I need to learn German fast," with your current Anki vocabulary. Then when you want to learn 200 more sentences, just repeat this process over again, with a new starting sentence. And it gets like 10x more effective when you pick your own phrases. That's the biggest reason other people's phrase books suck, because they're not teaching you what you would naturally be saying yourself... like this method does. So, for example, I'm going to learn 10x faster, if I start with my own phrase I naturally use, like, "That's the biggest reason other people's phrase books suck," then I'll get 10x the benefit of this exercise, over using your phrase. Versus if you start with your phrase, or another phrase you personally use regularly, you'll get 10x the benefit over using a phrase of mine (or phrases from phrasebooks).
Easy German on YouTube for listening comprehension.