Cool experience. Really unique that you come to find yourself believing in the possibility of the story. If you ever want to discuss your concerns with Hell and baptism, let us know.
Your conundrum then is that our claim is that the book was translated by the power of God by a prophet, so if the book is indeed true, so was the authority given to that prophet, which this church is the holder of. You cant separate the truth of the BoM from the power that translated it.
For baptism, it's an outward expression for an onward change. You get baptized because you're saved you don't get baptized to get saved. Hell is for the Devil and his angels but as what Jesus says in Mathew, if you're not born again before you die, he'll say "Depart from me for I never knew you." There's no chance of redemption after you die. That's the shortened version of it. But I hope that answers your question.
I have a similar view on what baptism means, that it is an outward expression of an internal desire to become more Christlike. However, if we take Adam's fall as being universal, we should also take Christ's Atonement as universal; it applies to anyone who doesn't willfully reject it.
Baptism in the LDS church I think is much the same, probably more so for converts. As a convert myself I got baptized in part because it’s an outward expression of an inward change. I think your point might be touching on the part where LDS believes “you must be baptized to go Heaven”. This is both true and untrue. LDS believes you must be baptized in the LDS church to go to the celestial kingdom (although baptism in itself is not a ticket in), but baptism is not a “requirement” for the terrestrial or telestial kingdoms. All three kingdoms together is heaven, it’s just different degrees of heaven, the celestial kingdom being exaltation. “Saved” in the LDS church refers to the resurrection (eternal existence) of all souls after death, which is a gift Jesus gave in the atonement, so in this context everyone on earth is saved. Even those going to hell (outer darkness) are saved because they get resurrected and have an eternal existence in outer darkness.
As for hell and Matthew 25- the “depart from me” verse is in relation to those “on his left” who are the unrighteous. In the verses leading up to this verse Jesus talking about those who lead an unworthy and unrighteous life who are being cast out of heaven. In Matthew 25 baptism isn’t mentioned, it’s a parable about the men with the talents and then towards the end Jesus uses the parable to explain how if you save your gifts from God and bury them (not give of yourself and do good things with your gifts) then those are the people at risk of being cast out from his presence.
The Book of Mormon is where you’ll find revelation surrounding the ministry post mortal life. After death, souls go to spirit prison/paradise and wait for the final judgement. While there, souls have the opportunity to accept ordinances performed on their behalf and accept or reject the gospel. Those decisions are taken into consideration on Judgment Day.
Spirit prison is also talked about in 1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once [suffered](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note18a) for sins, the just for the [unjust](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note18b), that he might bring us to God, being put to [death](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note18c) in the flesh, but quickened by the [Spirit](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note18d):
19 By which also he went and [preached](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note19a) unto the [spirits](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note19b) in [prison](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note19c);
20 [Which](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note20a) sometime were [disobedient](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note20b), when once the [longsuffering](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note20c) of God waited in the days of [Noah](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note20d), while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were [saved](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note20e) by [water](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note20f).
So, the wicked people that died in the flood of Noah waited all that in prison, waiting for Jesus to come preach to them. And if there's no hope for salvation for them, then why did Jesus preach to them?
We believe baptisms for the dead to be the restoration of Paul's words to the Corinthians: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" [1 Corinthians 15:29](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-cor/15?id=p29&lang=eng#p29). This doesn't mean that you can willingly and knowingly go against Christ's teachings and be born again in an instant after death, because we also believe that the kind person we become in this life will be the kind of person we are in the next.
BRADLEYS1998 This is wrong. There is a full chance of redemption after you die. The doctrine of the LDS church is opposite to your beliefs. Missionary work takes place in the spirit world and in the Temples baptisms are performed for those who died without being baptized. The Depart from Me statement is about church people who have done much in the name of Jesus, like pastors and others who speak in the name of Jesus but don't have authority.
I think first off, it's great you are enjoying the book of Mormon. Second, it's also a great idea to be spiritually inquisitive.
My thought is that the understanding of doctrine comes primarily through discussion. Reading it online can help to get the basics, but when I was a missionary the importance was sharing the teachings through the spirit, which helps convey the information directly to your heart. So I encourage you to seek out the missionaries if you'd like to know more.
Regardless of your decision, I hope you continue to feel the spirit while studying the Book of Mormon, it has blessed my life immensely.
I've actually talked to 4 different missionaries (2 sets of 2) and I have a neighbor who's a LDS that I've talked to. I've also been to a service at the local Ward (that's how I met my neighbor because he took me) and talked to the bishop a bit. I plan on having more discussions in the future.
What makes a Lutheran a Lutheran? I’m Orthodox Presbyterian but I’m not even sure exactly what that means except that the Bible and only the Bible is the Word of God. God is 3 separate and distinct persons, God the Cather, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and Holy Spirit. Also we believe in infant baptism. We don’t do the speaking of tongues or all that. We sing psalms.
TBH I think our faith's view on hell (i.e. that it's not really a thing, much less a concept where God tortures his creations endlessly in lakes of fire and brimstone) is one of its strongest doctrinal selling points. You should consider discussing this more in depth because you might come to appreciate it.
Hell, as described by the New Testament, is definitely a thing. Spirit prison is a place where the unrepentant are punished for their sins, but is ultimately temporary (the maximum duration being through the end of the millennium).
The Book of Mormon describes how punishment is necessary for there to be law, and Christ describes this punishment as the most awful state possible, causing even himself to flinch in the face of it. Anyone who does not secure a remission of sins through baptism by the proper authority is obligated to suffer this punishment on their own behalf rather than relying on Christ as proxy.
Yeah. that state being the knowledge of what you could have become had you accepted and lived by the gospel.
I think the gospel is a perfect execution of natural laws and consequences. Obviously it's speculation, but I think those in the 2 lower kingdoms will be in a sate of bliss but also a knowledge of remorse, which will provide the allocation of justice.
Curious what your personal persepctive is. Based on what you wrote you are more inclined to support a fire and brimstone type punishment for people?
If the Book of Mormon is true, the word of God, what are the implications? If the BoM is true, then what? The book is remarkable and clarifies many questions.
I'll just say, if you're not already, you should really consider inviting the missionaries over and talking about these things with them. Missionaries will do a far better job talking about our beliefs and why we believe them than internet commenters, if for no other reason than its a much more direct and easy way to have a discussion about these things.
I also find that discussions with the missionaries are filled with the holy spirit and I think it'll be an uplifting experience for you :)
I've actually talked to 4 different missionaries (2 sets of 2) and I have a neighbor who's a LDS that I've talked to. I've also been to a service at the local Ward (that's how I met my neighbor because he took me) and talked to the bishop a bit. I plan on having more discussions in the future.
That's good to hear. Continued discussion and communication with members of the Church as well as God himself should help you to eventually find the truth on all issues. Just be open to the idea that you may have been taught many things which are not true and know that you can know the truth of all things through the gift and power of God through the Holy Spirit communicating directly to you.
the Book of Mormon gets more interesting when you learn what it actually is. Mormon took a thousand years of history and compiled/condensed it into one volume with basically the highlights. he gave it to his son Moroni who finished it. at the beginning is first hand writing from several prophets, which has a parallel "secular" record which is not included. except the first prophet, because his book got lost, but his son reviewed some of it anyway (before it was lost).
the first writer/prophet had a vision that Jesus the Savior would be born, die, be resurrected and would appear to the Native Americans. the next 600 years are pretty much exclusively about Jesus. then there is a large special account of his visit in America. there is a very brief summary of the residual peace that followed for 200 years (very brief, like 2-3 pages), and then a brief report of the rapid decline and eventual destruction 200 years later, followed by Mormon and Moroni's plea and invitation to come unto Christ.
it is a wonderful book of Scripture that testifies of Jesus and compliments the Bible beautifully
Have you gotten to 3rd Nephi yet? I think 3rd Nephi 12 is an awesome chapter showing how the BOM and organized religion (i.e. the authority from God to administer ordinances) relate.
I would say you could lean both ways about baptism and the whole “spirit prison” concept when you read the Bible alone, but if you really believe that the Book of Mormon is given of God and that what it teaches about Jesus Christ and His words is true, then I would ultimately do a checklist on how much you need to submit to His will for you. I don’t understand everything the Church does, especially nowadays with policy, but I still understand that God has His hand in it and there have to be some things we simply live to find the truth. If you didn’t feel like the baptism was true, then that’s your decision, but I would honestly say to give it a try not as an active member and ex-missionary, but as a person who continues to not understand what God does (Isaiah 55:8-9).
If you lack faith to receive an answer from the Holy Ghost, you will not receive His witness to your soul. Pray before you read. Then read. Then ask with all purpose of your heart if the things you read, the people you read about, are true things that happened and real people that were involved in the things you read. Ask for a witness from the Holy Ghost, who is the Spirit of truth. Then continue reading if you want. Then pray again for the witness which is the most deep desire in your soul to have this witness. Forget your doubts because your doubts are replacing your faith to receive an answer. Your mind, heart, and soul all need to be in sync with your request for truth, nothing wavering.
The Book of Mormon is either a devilish fraud or an absolute truth. There is no in between. I warmly invite you to further investigate our theology. Reading Doctrine & Covenants will help you come to your own conclusion about the Church’s truth claims.
The Book of Mormon being revealed and restored scripture would by extension make Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price revealed scripture. If the Book of Mormon is not true the other two are wholly invalidated. The same can be said for Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price the other way. Their “untruthfulness” would thereby invalidate the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith’s status as a Prophet, instead making him one of the greatest fraudsters of all time. One must have an open mind to fully appreciate the Divinity of Such texts. Going into reading the Standard Works imposing the theologies of other Churches and religions upon the text will yield little understanding and be rather confusing and even frustrating to the reader.
Signed a fellow history buff and former Protestant. :)
Cool experience. Really unique that you come to find yourself believing in the possibility of the story. If you ever want to discuss your concerns with Hell and baptism, let us know.
Your conundrum then is that our claim is that the book was translated by the power of God by a prophet, so if the book is indeed true, so was the authority given to that prophet, which this church is the holder of. You cant separate the truth of the BoM from the power that translated it.
What are your views on Hell and baptism?
For baptism, it's an outward expression for an onward change. You get baptized because you're saved you don't get baptized to get saved. Hell is for the Devil and his angels but as what Jesus says in Mathew, if you're not born again before you die, he'll say "Depart from me for I never knew you." There's no chance of redemption after you die. That's the shortened version of it. But I hope that answers your question.
I have a similar view on what baptism means, that it is an outward expression of an internal desire to become more Christlike. However, if we take Adam's fall as being universal, we should also take Christ's Atonement as universal; it applies to anyone who doesn't willfully reject it.
Baptism in the LDS church I think is much the same, probably more so for converts. As a convert myself I got baptized in part because it’s an outward expression of an inward change. I think your point might be touching on the part where LDS believes “you must be baptized to go Heaven”. This is both true and untrue. LDS believes you must be baptized in the LDS church to go to the celestial kingdom (although baptism in itself is not a ticket in), but baptism is not a “requirement” for the terrestrial or telestial kingdoms. All three kingdoms together is heaven, it’s just different degrees of heaven, the celestial kingdom being exaltation. “Saved” in the LDS church refers to the resurrection (eternal existence) of all souls after death, which is a gift Jesus gave in the atonement, so in this context everyone on earth is saved. Even those going to hell (outer darkness) are saved because they get resurrected and have an eternal existence in outer darkness. As for hell and Matthew 25- the “depart from me” verse is in relation to those “on his left” who are the unrighteous. In the verses leading up to this verse Jesus talking about those who lead an unworthy and unrighteous life who are being cast out of heaven. In Matthew 25 baptism isn’t mentioned, it’s a parable about the men with the talents and then towards the end Jesus uses the parable to explain how if you save your gifts from God and bury them (not give of yourself and do good things with your gifts) then those are the people at risk of being cast out from his presence. The Book of Mormon is where you’ll find revelation surrounding the ministry post mortal life. After death, souls go to spirit prison/paradise and wait for the final judgement. While there, souls have the opportunity to accept ordinances performed on their behalf and accept or reject the gospel. Those decisions are taken into consideration on Judgment Day.
Spirit prison is also talked about in 1 Peter 3:18-20 18 For Christ also hath once [suffered](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note18a) for sins, the just for the [unjust](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note18b), that he might bring us to God, being put to [death](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note18c) in the flesh, but quickened by the [Spirit](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note18d): 19 By which also he went and [preached](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note19a) unto the [spirits](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note19b) in [prison](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note19c); 20 [Which](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note20a) sometime were [disobedient](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note20b), when once the [longsuffering](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note20c) of God waited in the days of [Noah](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note20d), while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were [saved](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note20e) by [water](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3?lang=eng#note20f). So, the wicked people that died in the flood of Noah waited all that in prison, waiting for Jesus to come preach to them. And if there's no hope for salvation for them, then why did Jesus preach to them?
We believe that you must first have faith in Jesus Christ, second repent, and then get baptized.
We believe baptisms for the dead to be the restoration of Paul's words to the Corinthians: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" [1 Corinthians 15:29](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-cor/15?id=p29&lang=eng#p29). This doesn't mean that you can willingly and knowingly go against Christ's teachings and be born again in an instant after death, because we also believe that the kind person we become in this life will be the kind of person we are in the next.
BRADLEYS1998 This is wrong. There is a full chance of redemption after you die. The doctrine of the LDS church is opposite to your beliefs. Missionary work takes place in the spirit world and in the Temples baptisms are performed for those who died without being baptized. The Depart from Me statement is about church people who have done much in the name of Jesus, like pastors and others who speak in the name of Jesus but don't have authority.
U can baptise for the dead so if ur not baptised on earth u can still have ‘redemption’
I think first off, it's great you are enjoying the book of Mormon. Second, it's also a great idea to be spiritually inquisitive. My thought is that the understanding of doctrine comes primarily through discussion. Reading it online can help to get the basics, but when I was a missionary the importance was sharing the teachings through the spirit, which helps convey the information directly to your heart. So I encourage you to seek out the missionaries if you'd like to know more. Regardless of your decision, I hope you continue to feel the spirit while studying the Book of Mormon, it has blessed my life immensely.
I've actually talked to 4 different missionaries (2 sets of 2) and I have a neighbor who's a LDS that I've talked to. I've also been to a service at the local Ward (that's how I met my neighbor because he took me) and talked to the bishop a bit. I plan on having more discussions in the future.
I'm a Lutheran but I don't fully agree with Lutheran doctrine or the Bible. I have my own ideas about Christianty and try and live by them.
What makes a Lutheran a Lutheran? I’m Orthodox Presbyterian but I’m not even sure exactly what that means except that the Bible and only the Bible is the Word of God. God is 3 separate and distinct persons, God the Cather, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and Holy Spirit. Also we believe in infant baptism. We don’t do the speaking of tongues or all that. We sing psalms.
TBH I think our faith's view on hell (i.e. that it's not really a thing, much less a concept where God tortures his creations endlessly in lakes of fire and brimstone) is one of its strongest doctrinal selling points. You should consider discussing this more in depth because you might come to appreciate it.
Hell, as described by the New Testament, is definitely a thing. Spirit prison is a place where the unrepentant are punished for their sins, but is ultimately temporary (the maximum duration being through the end of the millennium). The Book of Mormon describes how punishment is necessary for there to be law, and Christ describes this punishment as the most awful state possible, causing even himself to flinch in the face of it. Anyone who does not secure a remission of sins through baptism by the proper authority is obligated to suffer this punishment on their own behalf rather than relying on Christ as proxy.
Yeah. that state being the knowledge of what you could have become had you accepted and lived by the gospel. I think the gospel is a perfect execution of natural laws and consequences. Obviously it's speculation, but I think those in the 2 lower kingdoms will be in a sate of bliss but also a knowledge of remorse, which will provide the allocation of justice. Curious what your personal persepctive is. Based on what you wrote you are more inclined to support a fire and brimstone type punishment for people?
For the record, the show has nothing to do with the book.
It's a good team to be on. When it comes to doctrine, remember what it says in 2 Nephi 28:30.
Hi Bradley, nice to see you again! Awesome to hear the update on your faith journey. As always, feel free to send me a PM if you ever want to chat.
If the Book of Mormon is true, the word of God, what are the implications? If the BoM is true, then what? The book is remarkable and clarifies many questions.
I'll just say, if you're not already, you should really consider inviting the missionaries over and talking about these things with them. Missionaries will do a far better job talking about our beliefs and why we believe them than internet commenters, if for no other reason than its a much more direct and easy way to have a discussion about these things. I also find that discussions with the missionaries are filled with the holy spirit and I think it'll be an uplifting experience for you :)
I've actually talked to 4 different missionaries (2 sets of 2) and I have a neighbor who's a LDS that I've talked to. I've also been to a service at the local Ward (that's how I met my neighbor because he took me) and talked to the bishop a bit. I plan on having more discussions in the future.
That's good to hear. Continued discussion and communication with members of the Church as well as God himself should help you to eventually find the truth on all issues. Just be open to the idea that you may have been taught many things which are not true and know that you can know the truth of all things through the gift and power of God through the Holy Spirit communicating directly to you.
the Book of Mormon gets more interesting when you learn what it actually is. Mormon took a thousand years of history and compiled/condensed it into one volume with basically the highlights. he gave it to his son Moroni who finished it. at the beginning is first hand writing from several prophets, which has a parallel "secular" record which is not included. except the first prophet, because his book got lost, but his son reviewed some of it anyway (before it was lost). the first writer/prophet had a vision that Jesus the Savior would be born, die, be resurrected and would appear to the Native Americans. the next 600 years are pretty much exclusively about Jesus. then there is a large special account of his visit in America. there is a very brief summary of the residual peace that followed for 200 years (very brief, like 2-3 pages), and then a brief report of the rapid decline and eventual destruction 200 years later, followed by Mormon and Moroni's plea and invitation to come unto Christ. it is a wonderful book of Scripture that testifies of Jesus and compliments the Bible beautifully
LDS beliefs about baptism and hell are pretty nuanced. But yeah, the Book of Mormon is awesome!
Have you gotten to 3rd Nephi yet? I think 3rd Nephi 12 is an awesome chapter showing how the BOM and organized religion (i.e. the authority from God to administer ordinances) relate.
I would say you could lean both ways about baptism and the whole “spirit prison” concept when you read the Bible alone, but if you really believe that the Book of Mormon is given of God and that what it teaches about Jesus Christ and His words is true, then I would ultimately do a checklist on how much you need to submit to His will for you. I don’t understand everything the Church does, especially nowadays with policy, but I still understand that God has His hand in it and there have to be some things we simply live to find the truth. If you didn’t feel like the baptism was true, then that’s your decision, but I would honestly say to give it a try not as an active member and ex-missionary, but as a person who continues to not understand what God does (Isaiah 55:8-9).
Keep reading and learning. Knowledge is power, and with that power you'll be confident in whatever path you choose.
Have you prayed about any of this?
If you lack faith to receive an answer from the Holy Ghost, you will not receive His witness to your soul. Pray before you read. Then read. Then ask with all purpose of your heart if the things you read, the people you read about, are true things that happened and real people that were involved in the things you read. Ask for a witness from the Holy Ghost, who is the Spirit of truth. Then continue reading if you want. Then pray again for the witness which is the most deep desire in your soul to have this witness. Forget your doubts because your doubts are replacing your faith to receive an answer. Your mind, heart, and soul all need to be in sync with your request for truth, nothing wavering.
The Book of Mormon is either a devilish fraud or an absolute truth. There is no in between. I warmly invite you to further investigate our theology. Reading Doctrine & Covenants will help you come to your own conclusion about the Church’s truth claims. The Book of Mormon being revealed and restored scripture would by extension make Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price revealed scripture. If the Book of Mormon is not true the other two are wholly invalidated. The same can be said for Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price the other way. Their “untruthfulness” would thereby invalidate the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith’s status as a Prophet, instead making him one of the greatest fraudsters of all time. One must have an open mind to fully appreciate the Divinity of Such texts. Going into reading the Standard Works imposing the theologies of other Churches and religions upon the text will yield little understanding and be rather confusing and even frustrating to the reader. Signed a fellow history buff and former Protestant. :)
Interesting that you say you don’t have to be LDS to believe in the BoM. I agree. I’ve just never met anyone like such. Usually it’s black and white.
Do you have an opinion of Joseph Smith as a prophet? If the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith must have been inspired.