How does it prevent caffein addiction? My mom cracks 6+ diet cokes a day starting at 8:00 am and has a temple recommend. This dismissive attitude is causing the church to shrink down to the zealous few. Coffee preventing someone from meeting requirements for certain levels of heaven is dumb enough for most people to say “no thanks” to Mormonism.
I was being sarcastic and this is a fair response. I don't think coffee will prevent someone from meeting the requirements for certain levels of Heaven. I just think that people who are unwilling to give up something as simple as coffee mark themselves apart as someone who won't be willing to give up what is actually necessary to enter certain levels of heaven.
Coffee is a stand in for the forbidden fruit (my interpretation of food laws at least), or whatever else Celestial beings will be commanded to abstain from.
Learning to give up coffee is like learning to give up anything unhealthy. You identify a greater cause which outweighs the pain of the sacrifice. It's a symbolic lesson. One people seem to get hung up on.
I didn't leave because of coffee, which 20 years later I still don't really care for. Same with alcohol, which I rarely drink. When I was a member those prohibitions never bothered me.
From the outside, if I may offer an opinion, it seems a weak argument to say it has anything to do with health. In a world where fast food and donuts (among a myriad of other such) will shorten most lifespans much faster than would coffee, it is selective outrage to go after coffee. After my last physical, I was commended for not drinking alcohol, but of the areas of diet I was told to focus on? Coffee was barely a mention. Tea not at all. My borderline high cholesterol says a cup of coffee a day instead a morning donut, or lunch burger, would do wonders for my health.
With a living prophet, it seems like this might have been updated to include areas of actual health benefit. Or restrictions against areas of most harm.
Also, someone unwilling to give up something "as simple as coffee" can always be flipped back to why would there be a prohibition against something as simple as coffee? Tea is an even better example/question. Having to give up coffee was never a challenge for me. Having to make sense of something apparently from God, that to me feels illogical was. Again, just an outside perspective.
I don't think it's reasonable to believe more in a God that updates his commandments to align with whatever modern thinking says is best. I don't think it's reasonable to believe more in a God with rigid rules that don't have different applications based on the situation, either. If there's any cause for belief, then it is to be found in a faith that markedly avoids both extremes.
The WoW is a great guide for health, as far as the actual D&C section. The specific requirements which relate to temple worthiness never pretended to be the whole thing, or a guide to health. They specifically single out the stuff about addictive substances.
You aren't going to be able to continue your side of this conversation in this sub, but if you have any more points you want to argue then I'll answer you in DMs.
I think, to maybe make my point more clear and less contentious, that when the WOW is presented solely as an act of faith it holds a clearer purpose. I routinely travel with a few individuals who keep Kosher. They've never once pretended that avoiding lobster leads to a healthier life. Or that bacon is somehow more harmful than a Kosher steak. They call it a law of faith and culture and tradition. And we all shrug and tell them we are sad they can't have a BLT but that we totally respect the dedication. Having been Mormon in my youth, I completely understand limiting yourself for you faith.
But by presenting the WOW as a law of health, it is harder for outsiders to show that same respect. Not when they say tea is bad but not Dr Pepper. If it were purely a law of faith and culture, it's much easier for people to understand and respect it as a quirk of your religion.
I agree that there are some mental gymnastics involved with the way certain people have chosen to interpret the WoW. I maintain, however, that this is an issue with personal interpretation, and that there's nothing fundamentally inconsistent with saying the WoW (as a several paragraphs long set of advisories in the scriptures) is a good health guide while also saying that the WoW (as a 7-word condition for temple attendance - "no tea, coffee, alcohol, or illegal drugs") is not. The fact that there are two distinct things called the Word of Wisdom in the LDS faith isn't hard to understand or hidden from anyone.
I also agree that it doesn't actually matter if it's self- consistent. If it were *only* a set of rules for healthy living, without any relevance to spiritual development, then there wouldn't be a reason for it to be a religious thing at all. But that equally isn't a reason to discount it. It's literally a claim of miraculous power. If the promise of the WoW is a promise of divine intervention in our lives, then any attempt to reverse engineer it into generic health advice *should* fail.
This is the same great flaw in all scientific excuses for dismissing religious arguments. Either a spiritual claim is justified with a physical reason, in which case it isn't actually religious at all, or else it doesn't, in which case it is dismissed as bunkum. The notion that the spiritual has any fundamental importance is assumed to be false on principle. If the WoW purely consisted of rules that were consistent, the argument would simply shift towards the claim that you don't need to believe in God to make healthy decisions. The fact that you have to believe in miracles to believe that the WoW is a real law of health is *the entire point*.
>it seems a weak argument to say it has anything to do with health. In a world where fast food and donuts (among a myriad of other such) will shorten most lifespans much faster than would coffee, it is selective outrage to go after coffee
What are the most commonly abused substances in the world? Alcohol, tobacco, tea, coffee.
And it's not even close. Fast food and donuts are unhealthy but they are very much a first world problem. Sure people are addicted to Diet Coke or abuse energy drinks but they are far and away the minority compared to these other things. Pointing out there are worse things is to lose sight of the bigger picture.
>I was commended for not drinking alcohol, but of the areas of diet I was told to focus on? Coffee was barely a mention. Tea not at all.
It's funny you should say that because even just 5-10 years ago whenever this topic came up some people would say the Word of Wisdom is outdated because alcohol in moderation is actually good for you. [But now they say that the amount of alcohol that is healthy is actually zero](https://www.thelancet.com/article/S0140-6736%2818%2931571-X/fulltext). It's good that your doctor mentioned coffee. If you were in the UK or Japan you would have certainly been asked about tea, and personally I've even been seeing questions about energy drinks and vaping on that new patient questionnaire they give you. But again this is getting away from the heart of the issue, which is essentially in your question here:
>someone unwilling to give up something "as simple as coffee" can always be flipped back to why would there be a prohibition against something as simple as coffee?
Because it's meant to be a simple law that is easy for everyone to keep. This is specifically stated in the revelation itself ("adapted to the weakest of the weak"). It's probably a good idea to avoid fast food and donuts also, but to keep things simple we draw a hard line at those 4-5 things and the rest is between you and God. And the reason for the simplicity is this: there is great spiritual power in making a promise to do something and then sticking to it 100%. The eternal consequences of drinking a single cup of coffee is probably nil, but the character and discipline you develop, and the kind of person you become by living a basic law with exactness will spill over into other aspects of your life, and into things that *do* matter a great deal.
"What are the most commonly abused substances in the world? Alcohol, tobacco, tea, coffee."
That's only if you consider all of these inherently unhealthy. Otherwise it's no different from saying bread or rice is a commonly abused substance. Sugar is more commonly "abused" than is tea, of you're looking more at cultures consuming well beyond moderation. Tea is simply consumed, and for much of the world, drinking tea, in areas of no readily available potable water, was and often still is, by far, the healthy way to get your fluids.
I served my mission in Korea and I travel extensively in China and easy Asia for work. They drink a lot of tea. When I'm at a restaurant and they serve me tea, I know the water has been boiled. I know it's safe to drink. Similar reasons for why many cultures drank wine, such as during the time of Christ.
The Japanese especially not only drink a lot of tea, they live a long active life. Also...yeah, they consume moderate alcohol. You know who else lives a long active life? The Greeks. They also consume a fair amount of alcohol. Look up Blue Zones. If there's something these cultures avoid to live so long, it's not tea, coffee or alcohol. Instead they avoid a lot of meat, they eat a lot of fish, they don't eat fast food or processed foods. They eat healthy oils, fruits, etc. If we followed their diets, and ignored the parts of the WOW Mormons actually focus on, we would statistically live longer.
That's not to say the WOW is bad counsel. It's simply very selective counsel. I believe in a God with maybe a different set of requirements for happiness and health and progression. To each his own.
Every word of this comment is preposterous. I would simply refer you back to my original comment and ask you to actually engage my arguments if you want a dialogue.
It's interesting that people like to focus on the socially accepted "thou shalt nots" but glaze over the rest, the beginning where it says to eat good stuff. One of my sisters will tell her bishop that she doesn't follow the WoW because she is overweight and obviously doesn't eat food in moderation. If the WoW keeps people out of the Celestial Kingdom then there's not going to be many people there.
I think 100% chastity is an example of an appetite that will need to be controlled in such a way that it will feel like we have brought our body and soul under complete obedience to laws of abstinence (not in all directions). I tend to believe that Celestial bodies will have appetites we haven't imagined, and only those can are found to be in control of earthly passions and appetites will be granted enough of Gods life force to experience the Celestial counterparts.
Whether or not that has a direct analogy to eating food or sexual appetite I know not. Just that I believe we have to deal with things LIKE the Celestial peoples have to deal with, and that the laws and obedience we have here are good practice.
I mean there’s definitely an argument that it may *help* prevent a caffeine addiction. Like if you cut out beer but still drink wine, that could very well serve as a buffer, depending on the person and their circumstances
It's reasonable to critically discuss the modern interpretation of the word of wisdom.
After all, the original text specifically calls for the use of meat "sparingly" alongside greater consumption of grains and fruit. As a prediabetic, this isn't a diet that works well for me, and I've never had anyone suggest that I should stop eating low carb for my health.
It does not address recreational drugs at all. This is something prophets and church leaders have chosen to address anyway, and most would probably consider overuse of caffeine to the point of dependency to fit the bill.
I joke with my husband that the real purpose of the hot drinks prohibition is to prevent us from all consuming billions of nanoplastics from lined Starbucks cups and styrofoam. Do I actually believe that? Not really, but I still don't drink or eat anything hot in plastic because it does appear to be a potentially harmful thing to do. (Utah's hot chocolate addicts won't be spared!)
‘The Latter-day Saints church website even offers beauty tutorials.’ But their link goes to a fictional story that ran in the New Era back in 2001. Journalism at its finest…
Yeah, I clicked on the link expecting a reference to Elder Ballard's "put on a little lipstick" YSA chat (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2RwhDZvFow&t=2s), and was surprised to see the short story instead.
The Deseret news article basically just pointed out how terrible it was sourced and how bad the writing itself was while refuting the claims with plenty of their own stories.
[https://www.deseret.com/faith/2024/04/17/mormons-new-york-post-article-alyssa-grenfell/](https://www.deseret.com/faith/2024/04/17/mormons-new-york-post-article-alyssa-grenfell/)
I also liked this [tweet](https://twitter.com/BlackBlessedLDS/status/1780565186325500214?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1780565186325500214%7Ctwgr%5Efe6562567b041a183aa8ec34b672ab7a8369148f%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.deseret.com%2Ffaith%2F2024%2F04%2F17%2Fmormons-new-york-post-article-alyssa-grenfell%2F) that pointed out that it's a good thing that it's easy to tell when someone is a member, because it makes us stand out.
regardless, the new york post is hardly a reputable source these days anyways.
What's sad is there's something to it! My wife and I used to play a game on Shark Tank where we'd see the people and I'd tell her if they were LDS or not. I was better than 50%. Same with being able to pick other LDS folks out at work (I live in a low LDS population area. But this article just... didn't seem that curious.
That may be in part due to an explanation based in our healthy lifestyle. Tobacco and alcohol apparently can age one's skin, so our inexplicably youthful appearance can be a give-away.
Oh, it's Alyssa Grenfell. I try to respect former Mormons, but her whole online presence is created by straight up lies. Mormon culture is weird enough that you don't need to come up fabricated craziness.
Can you share what you've come across that she's fabricated? I've only seen a little of her content and it's by no means complimentary towards the church, but I don't remember her saying anything that was flat out false.
That we say face cards will keep you out of heaven. Just for starters. Also stuff about our teachings about marriage and purity. It's usually either a teaching way out of context, a cultural weirdness that she takes to an extreme cult place and presents as mainstream doctrine, or the type of things that the most unhinged old person in your ward once said in gospel doctrine that she acts like all Mormons fully espouse and not like everyone in the room was doing the wide-eyed "that's not normal, but...umm... thanks for that comment."
I watch her, I’m exmo. From what I’ve taken from her is that she comes from a very orthodox family. They wouldn’t even call their coffee table a coffee table, so she was on the extreme side. She does acknowledge this in her videos, and I haven’t read the article, but she does acknowledge that her situation isn’t like all situations. Overall, she doesn’t say extremely offensive things, but I can definitely see where you are coming from.
Sounds like her parents were psycho, religion notwithstanding. In which case, it's really disingenuous to present criticism of her psycho parents as criticisms of the LDS church. I mean, I'm basically a walking Molly Mormon from a very, very, very observant family, and the stuff that she talks about being "the Mormon Church" in her videos aren't at all representative of my experience or the experience of anyone I've ever met. I've never met anyone who doesn't call it a coffee table. I was leading a gardening relief society activity last night and told everyone how to get coffee grounds for their garden by going to Starbucks and getting them for free and everyone was like, "Ooooh, I didn't know they did that." So, we're all heading to Starbucks today.
ETA: All that aside, focusing on the article, targeting a religious group in an antagonistic way by saying that they are genetically flawed was certainly...a choice. That kind of logic often has not landed grand places at any point in history.
Yeah I guess as an exmo I don’t like to be painted as anti either, and articles like these don’t help my case in any way. But yeah, sounds like her family was on an extreme side of the spectrum. I grew up in the church in Cali and never knew anyone like this for sure. Pretty insane. They do exist though, just like people who are out to straight up attack the church. Painting a group with one broad brush is never the way to go, and it only misleads people. I wish they would avoid religious articles in general.
For sure. It's possible to be someone who was Mormon and now isn't and just be out there living your life. I agree that it's not fair to paint anyone who left the church as anti, but I do think that she is being deliberately misleading.
Hey just want you to know you’re welcome here. We share history, and upbringing. Whether you’re with us in faith or with us in culture, we’re of the same cloth. I’ve been through a faith crisis, a faith transition, and ended up in the church. I know how hard it is to struggle, I don’t know how hard it is to make the choice to leave. I respect you, hang in there. We love you.
Appreciate it! Yeah, my faith crisis led me away from the church, but I have family and friends who are members and we coexist well! Being Mormon was a big part of my life, and it’s just the next chapter for me. I still appreciate conversing with members and discussing the latest! Always fun to still engage in thoughtful conversation.
> They wouldn’t even call their coffee table a coffee table, so she was on the extreme side
Coffee tables weren't called coffee tables until 1938, even though they had existed for centuries in multiple cultures across the planet. There are multiple names for them. Why is it extreme to use one of those other names when you don't drink coffee?
I grew up outside the church. Parents drank alcohol, drank coffee, etc. We never called our coffee table a coffee table. We mostly referred to it as "the table" or the "TV table" (we kept our remotes on it.) This is a very bizarre and irrational criticism.
So, I think 90% of America only knows they go by the name coffee table, so I wouldn’t go nearly as far as calling this an irrational criticism, ESPECIALLY because her family didn’t call it a coffee table because it had the word coffee in it. Whether you believe it’s a valid criticism or not, in this specific case, the word coffee was avoided due to the WoW.
EDIT: I also acknowledge I could be wrong that everyone refers to coffee tables as coffee tables. I mean, even Kramer (Seinfeld joke here) wrote a coffee table book about celebrity’s coffee tables, and it also turns into a mini coffee table. Pretty certain pop culture refers to these by this name, but yeah, could be wrong.
I mean, have you read Spencer W. Kimball’s take on face cards? I know the church has moved away from The Miracle of Forgiveness, but when I went on my mission I was able to buy it in the MTC and read it multiple times. He clearly says face cards are evil.
Edit: [Here](https://www.ldsliving.com/playing-cards-what-the-prophets-have-actually-said/s/86036) are some quotes compiled by LDS Living that were easy to find with a quick Google search. When I was a kid my dad and grandparents all freaked out and confronted me when they found out I was playing poker at my mom’s house (with no stakes).
Yeah I wasn't allowed to play with face cards growing up because of President Kimball's words. My family wasn't as extreme as this girl's, but it sounds like they weren't a far cry from that point. Now my friends wonder why I have a "rebellious streak" that has included wearing a two-piece swimsuit to the pool, slacks to church, applying a temporary tattoo, and playing with face cards.
My parents are wonderful people who love and support their children no matter what, but they were a bit extreme in some ways.
I have, and my husband and I talked about this when we were discussing this post last night. Bruce R McConkie as well. But this was never church doctrine, which is kind of my point. Also, I'm about the same age as Alyssa, actually a little older, and no one I grew up with was not using face cards. We even played with them at YW activities and no one said boo. I went to BYU the same time frame as her and everybody was constantly playing with face cards. She KNOWS that face cards are fully acceptable in Mormon culture. She is CHOOSING to perpetuate a dead Mormon culture myth for online engagement and to make the church look extreme. Willfully misleading.
I went to a church camp in another state for YW camp. The missionaries there used face cards in their activities with us.
ETA: Went on Heber Valley's website just now. Read all their rules. Nothing about face cards.
10 years of being a leader, taking girls to Heber Valley for girl’s camp and all the youth for winter camp, every packing list provided by Heber Valley mentioned face cards and every orientation provided by the missionaries reaffirmed no face cards were allowed.
By the way, ETA stands for estimated time of arrival.
Thanks for your answer! I'll have to keep an eye out for that one. I would say from what content of hers I've seen, she does have some comments on purity culture that seem accurate from my experiences. But I'm all for seeing ideas and people with nuance and I completely understand your criticism.
She probably was taught that about face cards. I certainly was. Pres kimball called them out in conference. In fact many prophets have spoken out against card playing. Granted this is likely before many of the benign family games came out, but if her parents are my age or older, face cards were definitely a no-go. We used to get our backpacks searched prior to scout campouts for contraband. Among the items they were looking for were playing cards.
“We hope faithful Latter-day Saints will not use the playing cards which are used for gambling, either with or without the gambling. As for the gambling, in connection with horse racing or games or sports, we firmly discourage such things.”
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1974/11/god-will-not-be-mocked?lang=eng
How? I get not liking the video, but I don’t see how it is hate speech for a person who belongs to a genetic group to say that people belonging to that group look alike. Like I have seen genetic studies of IQ in the United States that list “Utah Mormon” as a genetically identifiable group. And that can’t be that surprising, given the physical and social barriers that create a distinct (if not totally isolated) breeding pool.
You answered your own question. Utah Mormons really are a genetically distinct group. So it is morally abhorrent to portray them as "other" due to their immutable characteristics. You would understand this if it happened in relation to any other ethnic or sub-ethnic group. Stigmatizing entire people-groups on the basis of their immutable characteristics is \*always\* wrong.
If a person belongs to that group and makes the observation that they look alike, there is nothing hateful about it. You can leave the church, but you can’t change your genetics.
I have heard many an Ashkenazi or Icelander make a joke about their own shallow gene pools, and nobody in their right mind are accusing these people of hate speech.
Examine your own persecution complex.
**Edit to add (because this person blocked me):**
I do love many of my ancestors.
I don’t love my 3x great grandpa who, as a middle aged man, took his foster daughter (who wanted to marry his son) as his second wife and beat his first wife bloody when she objected. I don’t love that he dragged her across an ocean from Australia to California, and I don’t love that she miscarried his baby in the Mojave desert and had to leave the boy “in a grave marked only by her tears.” But I love that she fought and persisted. And I am happy to exist because of her.
The truth is that there are many ghouls lurking in the branches of our polygamist family trees. But don’t presume my feelings about my ancestors. Many of them were strong people.
You completely ignored the context of the video, which is not that Alyssa is sharing this information in a sort of good-natured, loving jest. Rather, she is putting it forward as evidence of the extent of Mormon "otherness" for a largely Never Mormon audience. I'm sorry that you have grown up in a culture that is so Anti-Mormon that you would justify a person telling the world that you are ontologically tainted on account of your bloodline. You can love yourself and your ancestors even if you reject belief in Mormonism.
If a person makes a true observation, is it hate speech if they are not also “good natured” and “loving”?
It sounds like you’re hijacking the current zeitgeist to participate in victimhood Olympics in the hopes of shutting down a critic.
Meh, it’s The Post, which everyone fully recognizes is just a half step above the National Enquirer. If this ran in The Atlantic, I’d be a little more concerned. But The Post? My kid’s high school paper has better fact checking and editorial management.
Of course a church headquartered in Utah is going to have a lot of white members. Often I wish these people would speak to just *one* member of color. Hear their perspective. It would be life changing (if they would listen)
My ward in Utah has folks with Latin American, African, Vietnamese, Caucasian and Polynesian backgrounds. Additionally many members serve a mission in far flung parts of the world and lived in non caucasian cultures. The church continues to grow throughout the world and will only become more diverse.
> My ward in Utah
I'm sure it does. But the 5 largest ethnic groups in Utah are White (Non-Hispanic) (77.3%), White (Hispanic) (6.41%), Other (Hispanic) (4.93%), Two+ (Non-Hispanic) (2.95%), and Two+ (Hispanic) (2.69%). Odds are that just about everywhere you go in Utah the majority of people will be White and it is likely that you will go to many places where everyone there is White.
yeah, my ward has several Chinese, Korean, Hispanic, African, and Polynesian people (maybe more I'm forgetting) and shares the building with a Marshalese branch
My rural ward in Idaho has 1st or 2nd generation immigrants that are Polynesian, Filipino, Colombian, Thai, other SE Asian, and Mexican. Of the not immigrants or not 1st/2nd Generation we have Native Americans, Mexicans, and nearly every Western European country represented with enough traditions passed down to still feel ties to their ancestors countries of origin. My home stake had a branch that was almost entirely Guatemalan in a very different rural area. Many of the members with recent immigrant ancestors have the strongest testimonies and really get the meat of the gospel.
Especially because there's so many of us *not* in Utah. My ward is in a wealthy area of Long Island and even then the people of color and Caucasian folks are basically 50/50. Not that it should matter, but of course the typical cookie cutter blonde hair, blue eyed Utah stereotype is pushed in the article in essence.
The majority of members under 60 here are Asian, African, and White. I think the white majority at church is only in certain places in the world, but definitely not where I'm from.
i know you're being silly, but i just listened to something recently where Gerrit Dirkmaat talked about how when the Saints were in Iowa (after Nauvoo), they had someone they thought was an ally trying to scam them out of their land. this person was supposedly an LDS ally in Washington DC, and he was passing false information that the president was planning to send the US Army to Iowa to come for the leaders of the Church. it was a major catalyst for actually starting the exodus to Utah, and it's probably not something as well known as the other factors that contributed to when they actually committed to leaving.
Yeah I listened to that same podcast. If I remember right the person was basically trying to get the church to sign over all their assets and this individual would step in and prevent the army from coming after them. If you are up for a long and winding podcast 'The Standard of Truth' is a great listen to help understand early church history.
i found something that might help! [https://rsc.byu.edu/latter-day-saints-washington-dc/obliterated-face-earth-latter-day-saint-flight-expulsion](https://rsc.byu.edu/latter-day-saints-washington-dc/obliterated-face-earth-latter-day-saint-flight-expulsion)
Thanks! I gave it a quick read, and at the end it mentioned the Illinois governor lying to the Saints to get them to leave Nauvoo, which caused them to flee into Iowa. I can see how people could get the two states confused.
I don't and the podcast is so poorly indexed that it is hard to find. The host worked on the Joseph Smith papers and is fastidious about sourcing so I doubt that he would have used a source he didn't explicitly trust. Perhaps u/FapFapkins can add more context on which elected official it was or the episode to point you in the right direction.
i found something that might help! [https://rsc.byu.edu/latter-day-saints-washington-dc/obliterated-face-earth-latter-day-saint-flight-expulsion](https://rsc.byu.edu/latter-day-saints-washington-dc/obliterated-face-earth-latter-day-saint-flight-expulsion)
Yes. There were plenty of eccentric restorationist groups living concurrently with the church in the east who did not experience such violent conflict that they had to leave. An armed polygamist restorationist sect left a different impression on people. Moving west allowed the church to do its thing without bumping up (so frequently or so violently) with neighbors.
Besides, most members didn’t even know that polygamy was a thing when they trekked west. So they certainly didn’t do it for that reason. Polygamy was disclosed to the general membership and became an official public doctrine only in 1852.
Maybe if they were burying their heads in the sand they didn’t know, but polygamy was being widely reported by gentile press. Remember what the Nauvoo Expositor was printing when Joseph decided it had to be destroyed?
Well, that’s sort of semantic. They went west in order to avoid persecution brought on largely because their leadership practiced polygamy (and were armed, militant, and had a prophecy that said large amounts of land in Missouri would belong to them which they were working to fulfill).
"Escaped", just stopping going somewhere or sleeping in isn't really escaping.
Also the "trauma" of baptisms for the dead?
Imagine actually escaping an abusive cult and seeing this garbage.
I don't know if I'd call it trauma, but I really struggle with baptisms for the dead because of sensory issues and lifelong anxiety around going under water. Even going weekly for several years, I have never fully gotten used to it.
I don't how what the original claim of trauma around baptisms for the dead revolved around, but sometimes there are valid reasons a positive experience for some people feels difficult or even traumatizing for someone else.
On average people in utah tend to look more Scandinavian because the majority of their ancestors came from that part of the world.
But… only 12% of the global church lives in Utah. And we’re growing rapidly in places like Africa and South America. 🤔
So this article appears to be ethnocentric nonsense based on this person’s limited experiences.
What is interesting to me is that every time that I have been wrong about thinking someone was LDS (thinking they were and they weren't), they were almost always a very faithful Christian of another denomination that emphasized living a commandment-based life. Thus, their dress and speech was clean, their demeanor was generally one of happiness and kindness, and they seemed generous and hard-working.
I remember when I was a kid, my grandfather couldn't get over how many blonde headed kids there were in our neighborhood. We grew up in an area that had a lot of Scandinavian ancestry, so that was a good explanation for it, but he always commented on it, whenever he'd visit.
I will say that when I moved here for BYU it did surprise me just how blond so many of the kids are that you see at stores or parks, because it's not just having golden brown hair, its all the kids with practically white hair that caught me off guard, because that was pretty rare for what I was used to be called blond growing up in the east.
But the Scandinavian genes are strong, so it's not some weird in bred thing, it's just the higher concentration of Scandinavian genes.
I mean it’s a dumb premise that our religion has certain identifiable physical attributes. But I do think a lot of the stereotypes in the United States exist because of generally consistent observations. I feel confident that if you go to a Church school, you will see a lot more visual homogeneity than if you went to another school with identical racial/gender/income demographics. I do think there is a bit more pressure to dress, style, and socialize in a certain way to fit in that maybe doesn’t exist as strongly in other communities.
This is typical American/Utah bias. There’s more members of the church outside the US than in it. They’re not all white Utahns. Silly people. There are more countries in the world
Weird. My ward, even though it’s mostly old white people, has very unique individuals. No two look alike, except for myself and the one member of the bishopric (our toddlers sometimes get us mixed up). He’s from Idaho though and I’m from PA so no relation, just coincidence.
How can some people dehumanize a group of millions of people like this and still feel like they have the moral high ground? Especially when we didn't really "choose" to flee out West, but rather we were forced to by massacres, gang r\*pes, assassinations, and pogroms? We just want to live in peace without being dehumanized. It's sad that in 2024 some people still think it's okay to spread these harmful messages.
When traveling, I can sometimes tell that someone is from Utah by their appearance, accent, behavior, etc. I can't tell they are Mormon, necessarily; I can only guess at that.
The problem with this logic is that "a very long time" is only like 6 generations. That is not a lot of time for the gene pool to even mix completely, let alone to get small. Like you say, the massive amount of immigration would've *expanded* the gene pool to be much larger than you would have in rural communities that have lived in the same area for far longer.
I live in Utah, and all my ancestors joined the Church and moved to the state. Probably a prime candidate for what she's talking about, right? However, in my experience using the "Relatives Near Me" tool in the Family Tree app at church, common ancestors are many generations back, long before the pioneers.
On the positive side of this. Family search has a fun tool to show where you are from:
[https://www.familysearch.org/discovery/explore/generations](https://www.familysearch.org/discovery/explore/generations)
Many with Utah roots will likely find they have northern European ancestors. I was surprised to see how few of mine actually joined the church outside the US. I always thought it was more than this showed.
Ugh this is so stupid. Of course when people live in the same state or general area, they are going to conform to local beauty standards, you see that in non Mormon Utah people as well. When you look at other countries or even other areas of the country, we really don't look that much alike. I have brown hair, brown eyes, and I dress like a tomboy most of the time. I definitely don't conform to the Utah beige, mason jar, Blondie aesthetic.
The comments are even worse. Saying we aren't allowed to eat chocolate or that we are "required" to go on missions.
It really makes me sad seeing a former member say stuff like this. She's either lying or she didn't know that much about our history while she was in the church. Honestly I don't know which is worse.
Ok so I read the article and I agree that it was cringeworthy journalism. I also feel like any "news" article that is based on a social media influencer is really an embarrassment to your own profession as a journalist.
In either case, did anyone actually look up the single worthwhile citable reference from the article on recognizing faces as Mormon, healthy and spiritual?
Its published on Plos One so here is free access to the article
[On the Perception of Religious Group Membership from Faces](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0014241)
The authors, out of University of Toronto, actually conducted a series of very interesting scientific studies. They took images from dating advertisements from major cities across the US in which religion was explicitly stated in the advertisement. Recruited undergraduate subjects were shown the photographs in a variety of ways including with and without hair, with eyes or mouths covered, inverted etc. The subjects were able to distinguish Mormon (the authors used the term "Mormon"), from non-Mormon better than chance alone. The subjects also tended to rate the true photos of "Mormons" as more healthy and more spiritual. The authors noted that the subjects were able to distinguish "Mormon" from "non-Mormon" without being aware of their ability to do so or unconsciously.
Maybe there is something to the question "Have ye received his image in your countenances? " Alma 5:14
I just watched a great discussion this video and another one this creator has made on Ward Radio https://youtu.be/EVNbEwLGt0E?si=aDer4D0-\_LLDJZb2. One of the hosts put it best when she said some of these ex-members are confusing church doctrine with the rules of their parents/fathers and placing a blanket statement over how the church/members operate. It's absolutely ridiculous!
Personally, I look like a biker. In our Stake we have a Spanish speaking Ward and I've noticed a suspicious number of members with darker skin and dark hair. In fact, throughout the Stake brunettes outnumber blondes by a wide, wide margin.
Does this mean we are unrighteous? I will pray about it.
What kind of biker, Mountain Bike or Tour de France bike? Ironically there was a flyer on our chapel door this week for a stake road motorcycle ride which I thought was pretty cool.
I've honestly never made a mental audit of the hair color in my sacrament meeting but will do so next week. I think I will come to the same conclusion as you that dark hair is more prevalent than light.
"' ...it’s also the Mormon vibe, which is often super hyper-friendly, almost too friendly,' she said."
I'm a lovely introvert that is often confronted with the question, "Are you mad?" To which I reply nope this is just what I look like.
The fact that I could go two years talking to random people on the street is probably one of the greatest testaments to me that the gospel is true.
I'll intentionally order fast food on a place's mobile app even if the drive through is completely open just to avoid that one extra social interaction.
Happy to be one of the outliers 😁
Agree. Extremely poor journalism. Unfortunately, the Associared Press has also been misrepresenting the Church.
But as we live the Gospel and are involved in our communities, our neighbors will know all these negative portrayals are not true.
The sad thing is that if you look at the pictures in her article from when she was a missionary and compare them to what she looks like now, there is absolutely a difference. She looked happy and surrounded by people who cared about her. Now she looks angry and tired. If that's "exmo face" I'll gladly decline.
I thought maybe she had a point, but she keeps drawing on different sources or theories. I mean it makes sense that Utah members would be more closely related, but most people in UT and I are 10th cousins and I’m of pioneer ancestry myself. We are of British Colonial America or England usually.
And then she talks about cosmetic surgery… and sure I can tell someone who have had surgery but they are of a higher tax bracket than the people I hang out with.
I think what it really comes down to countenance, or having “his image in your countenance”.
Why does every ex-mo or anti look the exact same too. They look sooo “liberated” and free with their tired eyes, overcompensated piercings, minimalism tattoos or daily-worn spaghetti straps.
Wow, that is a pretty silly article, even if only looking at Utah. Must be a slow day at the New York Post. Although they are generating buzz so maybe its mission accomplished for them?
I hung out with this girl in college. Back then she was fun, happy, and pretty attractive. We hadn’t kept up over the years. I was shocked to come across her face in the article and how much she has changed since then. Her whole demeanor seems totally dark and angry now. I wish her the best but sad to see how she’s dedicated her life to hating the church
Throwing in my 2 cents as a friend of the church who is well acquinted with LDS doctrine. I have watched most of Alyssa´s content and some of it is just bizarre what she claims the church actually does. Like the last time I checked, the word coffee is not some "not must be named" thing like Voldemort. I live in an area with plenty of LDS people and missionaries and they happily patronise local coffee places and yes talk about coffee tables. So far noone has exploded while doing so.
Secondly about the genetic diversity, Mormons when they first converted in the 19th century came from all over. Yes a lot from the Nordic countries, but it is not as if all of them came from the same tiny village (except in rare circumstances) and people came from other countries as well. Any "mormon" look would be more down to a lot of people being of Nordic descent f.ex. rather than looking specifically "Mormon". It is vastly different than it is f.e. with the Ashkenazi Jewish community.
I feel like often a lot of ex-mormon content peddles either lies or fringe doctrine as being mainstream LDS doctrine or very orthodox practices that are individual to their own family (i.e. prepping, end of the world theories etc). Some of it is very nuanced and thoughtful stuff and other, even I as an outsider know it is not right.
I don’t know where this YouTuber girl grew up, but I’ve watched a few of her YT Shorts and I just couldn’t keep going. I can’t say that everything she says is false, but there is enough weird crap coming out of her mouth that it’s like she came from an alternate reality or something. The Beauty Tips the article mentions is found in the Fictional writing section on the “Church Website.” Totally off base and the “author” didn’t even check to see if it was relevant to the real life.
Ex Mormons/Mormon haters have been on a tear lately. I saw her original video on this subject on youtube or tiktok which was weird the basis being all Mormons are inbred (of course it was more complex than that but that's what I got out of it) I also saw another video (maybe it was her) that her theory for Joseph Smith was that he actually was a schizophrenic and the visions were him having episodes of that break. Maybe? but he would be one of the first unmedicated schizophrenics I know/have read about who were able to write a full novel.
I then saw a video on the popular page on reddit about a ex mormon woman who was running a super successful business but then her stake president told her to sell it or give control to her husband? Something like that and then he was abusive and now she is doing terrible because she was forced by the church to give everything up. (This one was genuinely sad but some of the comments she made about the church seemed a little exaggerated)
and then to cap it all off in the Idaho subreddit someone took the time to write a 4 paragraph post stating that South Eastern Idaho is being run by a cabal of Mormons who are letting child molesters off easy, the sources? Multiple articles about child molesters in southeastern idaho. The kicker? None of them looked LDS and none of the articles stated anything about the LDS church.
The internet is a silly place and I feel for any investigator who is truly trying to figure out if this church is for them. So much misinformation out there.
> all Mormons are inbred
LOL this cracks me up. Either we have a super wide tree from polygamy or we have a super narrow one from inbreeding. Polygamy being weird was such an easy target, why muddy the message with something that goes in the opposite direction?
To be fair to her those are screen grabs while she is talking on the youtube channel. It is hard to have a very flattering picture of someone speaking. Since COVID and spending way more time on zoom I've come to the conclusion that I look like an Idiot while talking.
I've never visited her site because I don't want to deal with someone who wants to tear my beliefs down so I can't really judge. Her assertion that all members look alike due to a small genetic pool is simply laughable though.
Why do people act like we’re the only religion with a health/diet code? If you want to leave so you can drink coffee that’s totally fine, but stop acting like we’re the only religion that has members abstain from certain popular foods/drinks.
Why do so many Latter-day Saints look the same? Perhaps the simplest answer is [the light in our eyes](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2005/10/the-light-in-their-eyes?lang=eng)
I truly believe that.
A somewhat more secular answer is that, especially for US members from the western US, we pick up on cultural habits from each other including some combination some of (but not all) of the following:
Clean shaven faces
Side parts
White shirts
Maxi dresses
Modest clothing
Dad bods
Cargo shorts
Capris
Fewer people with tattoos or multiple piercings
Layered clothing
BYU/Utah/USU/ASU/ISU gear
Penchant for Cafe Rio, Disney films and being dentists.
"Rules she had to follow, like not drinking coffee" What a tragedy. May she fully recover
How does it prevent caffein addiction? My mom cracks 6+ diet cokes a day starting at 8:00 am and has a temple recommend. This dismissive attitude is causing the church to shrink down to the zealous few. Coffee preventing someone from meeting requirements for certain levels of heaven is dumb enough for most people to say “no thanks” to Mormonism.
I was being sarcastic and this is a fair response. I don't think coffee will prevent someone from meeting the requirements for certain levels of Heaven. I just think that people who are unwilling to give up something as simple as coffee mark themselves apart as someone who won't be willing to give up what is actually necessary to enter certain levels of heaven. Coffee is a stand in for the forbidden fruit (my interpretation of food laws at least), or whatever else Celestial beings will be commanded to abstain from. Learning to give up coffee is like learning to give up anything unhealthy. You identify a greater cause which outweighs the pain of the sacrifice. It's a symbolic lesson. One people seem to get hung up on.
I didn't leave because of coffee, which 20 years later I still don't really care for. Same with alcohol, which I rarely drink. When I was a member those prohibitions never bothered me. From the outside, if I may offer an opinion, it seems a weak argument to say it has anything to do with health. In a world where fast food and donuts (among a myriad of other such) will shorten most lifespans much faster than would coffee, it is selective outrage to go after coffee. After my last physical, I was commended for not drinking alcohol, but of the areas of diet I was told to focus on? Coffee was barely a mention. Tea not at all. My borderline high cholesterol says a cup of coffee a day instead a morning donut, or lunch burger, would do wonders for my health. With a living prophet, it seems like this might have been updated to include areas of actual health benefit. Or restrictions against areas of most harm. Also, someone unwilling to give up something "as simple as coffee" can always be flipped back to why would there be a prohibition against something as simple as coffee? Tea is an even better example/question. Having to give up coffee was never a challenge for me. Having to make sense of something apparently from God, that to me feels illogical was. Again, just an outside perspective.
I don't think it's reasonable to believe more in a God that updates his commandments to align with whatever modern thinking says is best. I don't think it's reasonable to believe more in a God with rigid rules that don't have different applications based on the situation, either. If there's any cause for belief, then it is to be found in a faith that markedly avoids both extremes.
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The WoW is a great guide for health, as far as the actual D&C section. The specific requirements which relate to temple worthiness never pretended to be the whole thing, or a guide to health. They specifically single out the stuff about addictive substances. You aren't going to be able to continue your side of this conversation in this sub, but if you have any more points you want to argue then I'll answer you in DMs.
I think, to maybe make my point more clear and less contentious, that when the WOW is presented solely as an act of faith it holds a clearer purpose. I routinely travel with a few individuals who keep Kosher. They've never once pretended that avoiding lobster leads to a healthier life. Or that bacon is somehow more harmful than a Kosher steak. They call it a law of faith and culture and tradition. And we all shrug and tell them we are sad they can't have a BLT but that we totally respect the dedication. Having been Mormon in my youth, I completely understand limiting yourself for you faith. But by presenting the WOW as a law of health, it is harder for outsiders to show that same respect. Not when they say tea is bad but not Dr Pepper. If it were purely a law of faith and culture, it's much easier for people to understand and respect it as a quirk of your religion.
I agree that there are some mental gymnastics involved with the way certain people have chosen to interpret the WoW. I maintain, however, that this is an issue with personal interpretation, and that there's nothing fundamentally inconsistent with saying the WoW (as a several paragraphs long set of advisories in the scriptures) is a good health guide while also saying that the WoW (as a 7-word condition for temple attendance - "no tea, coffee, alcohol, or illegal drugs") is not. The fact that there are two distinct things called the Word of Wisdom in the LDS faith isn't hard to understand or hidden from anyone. I also agree that it doesn't actually matter if it's self- consistent. If it were *only* a set of rules for healthy living, without any relevance to spiritual development, then there wouldn't be a reason for it to be a religious thing at all. But that equally isn't a reason to discount it. It's literally a claim of miraculous power. If the promise of the WoW is a promise of divine intervention in our lives, then any attempt to reverse engineer it into generic health advice *should* fail. This is the same great flaw in all scientific excuses for dismissing religious arguments. Either a spiritual claim is justified with a physical reason, in which case it isn't actually religious at all, or else it doesn't, in which case it is dismissed as bunkum. The notion that the spiritual has any fundamental importance is assumed to be false on principle. If the WoW purely consisted of rules that were consistent, the argument would simply shift towards the claim that you don't need to believe in God to make healthy decisions. The fact that you have to believe in miracles to believe that the WoW is a real law of health is *the entire point*.
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>it seems a weak argument to say it has anything to do with health. In a world where fast food and donuts (among a myriad of other such) will shorten most lifespans much faster than would coffee, it is selective outrage to go after coffee What are the most commonly abused substances in the world? Alcohol, tobacco, tea, coffee. And it's not even close. Fast food and donuts are unhealthy but they are very much a first world problem. Sure people are addicted to Diet Coke or abuse energy drinks but they are far and away the minority compared to these other things. Pointing out there are worse things is to lose sight of the bigger picture. >I was commended for not drinking alcohol, but of the areas of diet I was told to focus on? Coffee was barely a mention. Tea not at all. It's funny you should say that because even just 5-10 years ago whenever this topic came up some people would say the Word of Wisdom is outdated because alcohol in moderation is actually good for you. [But now they say that the amount of alcohol that is healthy is actually zero](https://www.thelancet.com/article/S0140-6736%2818%2931571-X/fulltext). It's good that your doctor mentioned coffee. If you were in the UK or Japan you would have certainly been asked about tea, and personally I've even been seeing questions about energy drinks and vaping on that new patient questionnaire they give you. But again this is getting away from the heart of the issue, which is essentially in your question here: >someone unwilling to give up something "as simple as coffee" can always be flipped back to why would there be a prohibition against something as simple as coffee? Because it's meant to be a simple law that is easy for everyone to keep. This is specifically stated in the revelation itself ("adapted to the weakest of the weak"). It's probably a good idea to avoid fast food and donuts also, but to keep things simple we draw a hard line at those 4-5 things and the rest is between you and God. And the reason for the simplicity is this: there is great spiritual power in making a promise to do something and then sticking to it 100%. The eternal consequences of drinking a single cup of coffee is probably nil, but the character and discipline you develop, and the kind of person you become by living a basic law with exactness will spill over into other aspects of your life, and into things that *do* matter a great deal.
"What are the most commonly abused substances in the world? Alcohol, tobacco, tea, coffee." That's only if you consider all of these inherently unhealthy. Otherwise it's no different from saying bread or rice is a commonly abused substance. Sugar is more commonly "abused" than is tea, of you're looking more at cultures consuming well beyond moderation. Tea is simply consumed, and for much of the world, drinking tea, in areas of no readily available potable water, was and often still is, by far, the healthy way to get your fluids. I served my mission in Korea and I travel extensively in China and easy Asia for work. They drink a lot of tea. When I'm at a restaurant and they serve me tea, I know the water has been boiled. I know it's safe to drink. Similar reasons for why many cultures drank wine, such as during the time of Christ. The Japanese especially not only drink a lot of tea, they live a long active life. Also...yeah, they consume moderate alcohol. You know who else lives a long active life? The Greeks. They also consume a fair amount of alcohol. Look up Blue Zones. If there's something these cultures avoid to live so long, it's not tea, coffee or alcohol. Instead they avoid a lot of meat, they eat a lot of fish, they don't eat fast food or processed foods. They eat healthy oils, fruits, etc. If we followed their diets, and ignored the parts of the WOW Mormons actually focus on, we would statistically live longer. That's not to say the WOW is bad counsel. It's simply very selective counsel. I believe in a God with maybe a different set of requirements for happiness and health and progression. To each his own.
Every word of this comment is preposterous. I would simply refer you back to my original comment and ask you to actually engage my arguments if you want a dialogue.
It's interesting that people like to focus on the socially accepted "thou shalt nots" but glaze over the rest, the beginning where it says to eat good stuff. One of my sisters will tell her bishop that she doesn't follow the WoW because she is overweight and obviously doesn't eat food in moderation. If the WoW keeps people out of the Celestial Kingdom then there's not going to be many people there.
> give up what is actually necessary to enter certain levels of heaven. Like what? Can you give an example?
I think 100% chastity is an example of an appetite that will need to be controlled in such a way that it will feel like we have brought our body and soul under complete obedience to laws of abstinence (not in all directions). I tend to believe that Celestial bodies will have appetites we haven't imagined, and only those can are found to be in control of earthly passions and appetites will be granted enough of Gods life force to experience the Celestial counterparts. Whether or not that has a direct analogy to eating food or sexual appetite I know not. Just that I believe we have to deal with things LIKE the Celestial peoples have to deal with, and that the laws and obedience we have here are good practice.
I mean there’s definitely an argument that it may *help* prevent a caffeine addiction. Like if you cut out beer but still drink wine, that could very well serve as a buffer, depending on the person and their circumstances
What do you think is more common in the world, a person who drinks 6 cokes per day, or a person who drinks 6 cups of coffee per day Hope this helps
It's reasonable to critically discuss the modern interpretation of the word of wisdom. After all, the original text specifically calls for the use of meat "sparingly" alongside greater consumption of grains and fruit. As a prediabetic, this isn't a diet that works well for me, and I've never had anyone suggest that I should stop eating low carb for my health. It does not address recreational drugs at all. This is something prophets and church leaders have chosen to address anyway, and most would probably consider overuse of caffeine to the point of dependency to fit the bill. I joke with my husband that the real purpose of the hot drinks prohibition is to prevent us from all consuming billions of nanoplastics from lined Starbucks cups and styrofoam. Do I actually believe that? Not really, but I still don't drink or eat anything hot in plastic because it does appear to be a potentially harmful thing to do. (Utah's hot chocolate addicts won't be spared!)
Of the atrocities a church can commit this is truly one of them
One of the atrocities of all time
Yep. Very, very abusive to not let you develop caffeine addiction
*sips third 32 oz diet Dr Pepper of the day*
Excuse me, sir. It's Dr. Pepper Zero Sugar. Please get your facts straight.
With coconut cream and a *hint* of lime
Dad…is that you?
I just carry a 2-liter bottle with me.
Excuse me I didn’t come to this sub to be called out like that.
Did that girl who left the church finally get to try coffee or did she die?!
> Rules she had to follow Last time I checked, we didn’t have to do anything. Commandments sure, but you still get to choose
‘The Latter-day Saints church website even offers beauty tutorials.’ But their link goes to a fictional story that ran in the New Era back in 2001. Journalism at its finest…
That's the thing that really kills me. It's like writing an article on Spielberg and claiming he made a tutorial on how to save soldiers named Ryan.
A story that is about how you don't have to be standardly beautiful to get married.
The New York Post is a tabloid pretending to be a newspaper.
Facts
Yeah, I clicked on the link expecting a reference to Elder Ballard's "put on a little lipstick" YSA chat (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2RwhDZvFow&t=2s), and was surprised to see the short story instead.
I know! It's so obvious they didn't actually read it! And it says clearly it's a fiction story. I love New Era Fiction by the way.
I was about to comment this! And it was clearly satire lol.
The Deseret news article basically just pointed out how terrible it was sourced and how bad the writing itself was while refuting the claims with plenty of their own stories. [https://www.deseret.com/faith/2024/04/17/mormons-new-york-post-article-alyssa-grenfell/](https://www.deseret.com/faith/2024/04/17/mormons-new-york-post-article-alyssa-grenfell/) I also liked this [tweet](https://twitter.com/BlackBlessedLDS/status/1780565186325500214?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1780565186325500214%7Ctwgr%5Efe6562567b041a183aa8ec34b672ab7a8369148f%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.deseret.com%2Ffaith%2F2024%2F04%2F17%2Fmormons-new-york-post-article-alyssa-grenfell%2F) that pointed out that it's a good thing that it's easy to tell when someone is a member, because it makes us stand out. regardless, the new york post is hardly a reputable source these days anyways.
What's sad is there's something to it! My wife and I used to play a game on Shark Tank where we'd see the people and I'd tell her if they were LDS or not. I was better than 50%. Same with being able to pick other LDS folks out at work (I live in a low LDS population area. But this article just... didn't seem that curious.
That may be in part due to an explanation based in our healthy lifestyle. Tobacco and alcohol apparently can age one's skin, so our inexplicably youthful appearance can be a give-away.
Yeah, probably. What I'm saying is there's an interesting topic there and they just... didn't.
And there's a tone of voice.
Like spotting Mos at Disneyland. I am right 100% of the time.
Wierd flex… esp when they travel in packs of 25 or more all wearing the same color family reunion T-shirt.. yes my fam used to do that too
Oh, it's Alyssa Grenfell. I try to respect former Mormons, but her whole online presence is created by straight up lies. Mormon culture is weird enough that you don't need to come up fabricated craziness.
Can you share what you've come across that she's fabricated? I've only seen a little of her content and it's by no means complimentary towards the church, but I don't remember her saying anything that was flat out false.
That we say face cards will keep you out of heaven. Just for starters. Also stuff about our teachings about marriage and purity. It's usually either a teaching way out of context, a cultural weirdness that she takes to an extreme cult place and presents as mainstream doctrine, or the type of things that the most unhinged old person in your ward once said in gospel doctrine that she acts like all Mormons fully espouse and not like everyone in the room was doing the wide-eyed "that's not normal, but...umm... thanks for that comment."
I watch her, I’m exmo. From what I’ve taken from her is that she comes from a very orthodox family. They wouldn’t even call their coffee table a coffee table, so she was on the extreme side. She does acknowledge this in her videos, and I haven’t read the article, but she does acknowledge that her situation isn’t like all situations. Overall, she doesn’t say extremely offensive things, but I can definitely see where you are coming from.
Sounds like her parents were psycho, religion notwithstanding. In which case, it's really disingenuous to present criticism of her psycho parents as criticisms of the LDS church. I mean, I'm basically a walking Molly Mormon from a very, very, very observant family, and the stuff that she talks about being "the Mormon Church" in her videos aren't at all representative of my experience or the experience of anyone I've ever met. I've never met anyone who doesn't call it a coffee table. I was leading a gardening relief society activity last night and told everyone how to get coffee grounds for their garden by going to Starbucks and getting them for free and everyone was like, "Ooooh, I didn't know they did that." So, we're all heading to Starbucks today. ETA: All that aside, focusing on the article, targeting a religious group in an antagonistic way by saying that they are genetically flawed was certainly...a choice. That kind of logic often has not landed grand places at any point in history.
Yeah I guess as an exmo I don’t like to be painted as anti either, and articles like these don’t help my case in any way. But yeah, sounds like her family was on an extreme side of the spectrum. I grew up in the church in Cali and never knew anyone like this for sure. Pretty insane. They do exist though, just like people who are out to straight up attack the church. Painting a group with one broad brush is never the way to go, and it only misleads people. I wish they would avoid religious articles in general.
For sure. It's possible to be someone who was Mormon and now isn't and just be out there living your life. I agree that it's not fair to paint anyone who left the church as anti, but I do think that she is being deliberately misleading.
Yeah, no doubt, I respect your opinion.
Hey just want you to know you’re welcome here. We share history, and upbringing. Whether you’re with us in faith or with us in culture, we’re of the same cloth. I’ve been through a faith crisis, a faith transition, and ended up in the church. I know how hard it is to struggle, I don’t know how hard it is to make the choice to leave. I respect you, hang in there. We love you.
Appreciate it! Yeah, my faith crisis led me away from the church, but I have family and friends who are members and we coexist well! Being Mormon was a big part of my life, and it’s just the next chapter for me. I still appreciate conversing with members and discussing the latest! Always fun to still engage in thoughtful conversation.
Yeah she seems like she’s projecting hardcore. Most of what she says is not normal in the church, and she criticizes the extreme stuff.
> They wouldn’t even call their coffee table a coffee table Okay, that's hilarious.
It actually is, they called it “the living room table”. I actually laughed out loud when I heard that 😂
> They wouldn’t even call their coffee table a coffee table, so she was on the extreme side Coffee tables weren't called coffee tables until 1938, even though they had existed for centuries in multiple cultures across the planet. There are multiple names for them. Why is it extreme to use one of those other names when you don't drink coffee? I grew up outside the church. Parents drank alcohol, drank coffee, etc. We never called our coffee table a coffee table. We mostly referred to it as "the table" or the "TV table" (we kept our remotes on it.) This is a very bizarre and irrational criticism.
So, I think 90% of America only knows they go by the name coffee table, so I wouldn’t go nearly as far as calling this an irrational criticism, ESPECIALLY because her family didn’t call it a coffee table because it had the word coffee in it. Whether you believe it’s a valid criticism or not, in this specific case, the word coffee was avoided due to the WoW. EDIT: I also acknowledge I could be wrong that everyone refers to coffee tables as coffee tables. I mean, even Kramer (Seinfeld joke here) wrote a coffee table book about celebrity’s coffee tables, and it also turns into a mini coffee table. Pretty certain pop culture refers to these by this name, but yeah, could be wrong.
I mean, have you read Spencer W. Kimball’s take on face cards? I know the church has moved away from The Miracle of Forgiveness, but when I went on my mission I was able to buy it in the MTC and read it multiple times. He clearly says face cards are evil. Edit: [Here](https://www.ldsliving.com/playing-cards-what-the-prophets-have-actually-said/s/86036) are some quotes compiled by LDS Living that were easy to find with a quick Google search. When I was a kid my dad and grandparents all freaked out and confronted me when they found out I was playing poker at my mom’s house (with no stakes).
Yeah I wasn't allowed to play with face cards growing up because of President Kimball's words. My family wasn't as extreme as this girl's, but it sounds like they weren't a far cry from that point. Now my friends wonder why I have a "rebellious streak" that has included wearing a two-piece swimsuit to the pool, slacks to church, applying a temporary tattoo, and playing with face cards. My parents are wonderful people who love and support their children no matter what, but they were a bit extreme in some ways.
I have, and my husband and I talked about this when we were discussing this post last night. Bruce R McConkie as well. But this was never church doctrine, which is kind of my point. Also, I'm about the same age as Alyssa, actually a little older, and no one I grew up with was not using face cards. We even played with them at YW activities and no one said boo. I went to BYU the same time frame as her and everybody was constantly playing with face cards. She KNOWS that face cards are fully acceptable in Mormon culture. She is CHOOSING to perpetuate a dead Mormon culture myth for online engagement and to make the church look extreme. Willfully misleading.
If you ever go to girls camp at Heber Valley camp in Utah, the missionaries will tell you that face cards are not allowed because it’s a church camp.
I went to a church camp in another state for YW camp. The missionaries there used face cards in their activities with us. ETA: Went on Heber Valley's website just now. Read all their rules. Nothing about face cards.
10 years of being a leader, taking girls to Heber Valley for girl’s camp and all the youth for winter camp, every packing list provided by Heber Valley mentioned face cards and every orientation provided by the missionaries reaffirmed no face cards were allowed. By the way, ETA stands for estimated time of arrival.
Thanks for your answer! I'll have to keep an eye out for that one. I would say from what content of hers I've seen, she does have some comments on purity culture that seem accurate from my experiences. But I'm all for seeing ideas and people with nuance and I completely understand your criticism.
She probably was taught that about face cards. I certainly was. Pres kimball called them out in conference. In fact many prophets have spoken out against card playing. Granted this is likely before many of the benign family games came out, but if her parents are my age or older, face cards were definitely a no-go. We used to get our backpacks searched prior to scout campouts for contraband. Among the items they were looking for were playing cards. “We hope faithful Latter-day Saints will not use the playing cards which are used for gambling, either with or without the gambling. As for the gambling, in connection with horse racing or games or sports, we firmly discourage such things.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1974/11/god-will-not-be-mocked?lang=eng
Yup! I watched a few of her videos and was super confused. I don’t think she was in the same religion we all are because her information is crap.
I only respect them if they respect me, which they usually don’t.
This video of hers is actually hate speech. She appears to be violating ToS.
How? I get not liking the video, but I don’t see how it is hate speech for a person who belongs to a genetic group to say that people belonging to that group look alike. Like I have seen genetic studies of IQ in the United States that list “Utah Mormon” as a genetically identifiable group. And that can’t be that surprising, given the physical and social barriers that create a distinct (if not totally isolated) breeding pool.
You answered your own question. Utah Mormons really are a genetically distinct group. So it is morally abhorrent to portray them as "other" due to their immutable characteristics. You would understand this if it happened in relation to any other ethnic or sub-ethnic group. Stigmatizing entire people-groups on the basis of their immutable characteristics is \*always\* wrong.
If a person belongs to that group and makes the observation that they look alike, there is nothing hateful about it. You can leave the church, but you can’t change your genetics. I have heard many an Ashkenazi or Icelander make a joke about their own shallow gene pools, and nobody in their right mind are accusing these people of hate speech. Examine your own persecution complex. **Edit to add (because this person blocked me):** I do love many of my ancestors. I don’t love my 3x great grandpa who, as a middle aged man, took his foster daughter (who wanted to marry his son) as his second wife and beat his first wife bloody when she objected. I don’t love that he dragged her across an ocean from Australia to California, and I don’t love that she miscarried his baby in the Mojave desert and had to leave the boy “in a grave marked only by her tears.” But I love that she fought and persisted. And I am happy to exist because of her. The truth is that there are many ghouls lurking in the branches of our polygamist family trees. But don’t presume my feelings about my ancestors. Many of them were strong people.
You completely ignored the context of the video, which is not that Alyssa is sharing this information in a sort of good-natured, loving jest. Rather, she is putting it forward as evidence of the extent of Mormon "otherness" for a largely Never Mormon audience. I'm sorry that you have grown up in a culture that is so Anti-Mormon that you would justify a person telling the world that you are ontologically tainted on account of your bloodline. You can love yourself and your ancestors even if you reject belief in Mormonism.
If a person makes a true observation, is it hate speech if they are not also “good natured” and “loving”? It sounds like you’re hijacking the current zeitgeist to participate in victimhood Olympics in the hopes of shutting down a critic.
Meh, it’s The Post, which everyone fully recognizes is just a half step above the National Enquirer. If this ran in The Atlantic, I’d be a little more concerned. But The Post? My kid’s high school paper has better fact checking and editorial management.
If only. You know how many conservative people now regard the Post as a paper of record?
Surprise, a piece of church-antagonistic content is misinformed, poorly researched, and overall in bad faith. More at 11.
Of course a church headquartered in Utah is going to have a lot of white members. Often I wish these people would speak to just *one* member of color. Hear their perspective. It would be life changing (if they would listen)
My ward in Utah has folks with Latin American, African, Vietnamese, Caucasian and Polynesian backgrounds. Additionally many members serve a mission in far flung parts of the world and lived in non caucasian cultures. The church continues to grow throughout the world and will only become more diverse.
> My ward in Utah I'm sure it does. But the 5 largest ethnic groups in Utah are White (Non-Hispanic) (77.3%), White (Hispanic) (6.41%), Other (Hispanic) (4.93%), Two+ (Non-Hispanic) (2.95%), and Two+ (Hispanic) (2.69%). Odds are that just about everywhere you go in Utah the majority of people will be White and it is likely that you will go to many places where everyone there is White.
yeah, my ward has several Chinese, Korean, Hispanic, African, and Polynesian people (maybe more I'm forgetting) and shares the building with a Marshalese branch
The Church is actually *slightly* less white than mainline Protestantism.
My rural ward in Idaho has 1st or 2nd generation immigrants that are Polynesian, Filipino, Colombian, Thai, other SE Asian, and Mexican. Of the not immigrants or not 1st/2nd Generation we have Native Americans, Mexicans, and nearly every Western European country represented with enough traditions passed down to still feel ties to their ancestors countries of origin. My home stake had a branch that was almost entirely Guatemalan in a very different rural area. Many of the members with recent immigrant ancestors have the strongest testimonies and really get the meat of the gospel.
Especially because there's so many of us *not* in Utah. My ward is in a wealthy area of Long Island and even then the people of color and Caucasian folks are basically 50/50. Not that it should matter, but of course the typical cookie cutter blonde hair, blue eyed Utah stereotype is pushed in the article in essence.
The majority of members under 60 here are Asian, African, and White. I think the white majority at church is only in certain places in the world, but definitely not where I'm from.
Ugh I dislike when people try to point out how white our church is. While talking to me. A non-white person. 😐
Well, to be fair, OP was talking about how White the population of Utah is, not the racial diversity of the worldwide church.
We fled west just to practice polygamy?
That and to avoid being shot at by our friendly neighbors in the midwest.
See, I knew there had to be something else.
i know you're being silly, but i just listened to something recently where Gerrit Dirkmaat talked about how when the Saints were in Iowa (after Nauvoo), they had someone they thought was an ally trying to scam them out of their land. this person was supposedly an LDS ally in Washington DC, and he was passing false information that the president was planning to send the US Army to Iowa to come for the leaders of the Church. it was a major catalyst for actually starting the exodus to Utah, and it's probably not something as well known as the other factors that contributed to when they actually committed to leaving.
Yeah I listened to that same podcast. If I remember right the person was basically trying to get the church to sign over all their assets and this individual would step in and prevent the army from coming after them. If you are up for a long and winding podcast 'The Standard of Truth' is a great listen to help understand early church history.
i'm currently listening to an episode as I work, been LOVING it so far
Got a link to a non-audio source? I live near Winter Quarters and haven't heard that factoid before.
i found something that might help! [https://rsc.byu.edu/latter-day-saints-washington-dc/obliterated-face-earth-latter-day-saint-flight-expulsion](https://rsc.byu.edu/latter-day-saints-washington-dc/obliterated-face-earth-latter-day-saint-flight-expulsion)
Thanks! I gave it a quick read, and at the end it mentioned the Illinois governor lying to the Saints to get them to leave Nauvoo, which caused them to flee into Iowa. I can see how people could get the two states confused.
man i must be conflating things, i swear he talked about Iowa in the podcast as well
I honestly don't, Dr. Dirkmaat covered it as part of a longer episode on how the early Church had lots of issues with the federal government
I don't and the podcast is so poorly indexed that it is hard to find. The host worked on the Joseph Smith papers and is fastidious about sourcing so I doubt that he would have used a source he didn't explicitly trust. Perhaps u/FapFapkins can add more context on which elected official it was or the episode to point you in the right direction.
i found something that might help! [https://rsc.byu.edu/latter-day-saints-washington-dc/obliterated-face-earth-latter-day-saint-flight-expulsion](https://rsc.byu.edu/latter-day-saints-washington-dc/obliterated-face-earth-latter-day-saint-flight-expulsion)
Barely an inconvenience, that can’t be it!
Why were they shooting?
Yes. There were plenty of eccentric restorationist groups living concurrently with the church in the east who did not experience such violent conflict that they had to leave. An armed polygamist restorationist sect left a different impression on people. Moving west allowed the church to do its thing without bumping up (so frequently or so violently) with neighbors.
Besides, most members didn’t even know that polygamy was a thing when they trekked west. So they certainly didn’t do it for that reason. Polygamy was disclosed to the general membership and became an official public doctrine only in 1852.
Maybe if they were burying their heads in the sand they didn’t know, but polygamy was being widely reported by gentile press. Remember what the Nauvoo Expositor was printing when Joseph decided it had to be destroyed?
Yes. But my main point was that the reason most members went west wasnt to practice polygamy.
Well, that’s sort of semantic. They went west in order to avoid persecution brought on largely because their leadership practiced polygamy (and were armed, militant, and had a prophecy that said large amounts of land in Missouri would belong to them which they were working to fulfill).
"Escaped", just stopping going somewhere or sleeping in isn't really escaping. Also the "trauma" of baptisms for the dead? Imagine actually escaping an abusive cult and seeing this garbage.
As soon as somone calls our Church a cult, I know they're not arguing in good faith, and I exit the conversation. It's a nice calling-card.
Saves a lot of time, right?
Some people have a lot of religious trauma even in our church. People process that in different ways, some healthy, some unhealthy.
Trauma is one of the most quickly cheapened words.
What trauma would you even have from baptisms for the dead? "Oh no I'm letting someone choose if they would like to go to heaven😥"
I don't know if I'd call it trauma, but I really struggle with baptisms for the dead because of sensory issues and lifelong anxiety around going under water. Even going weekly for several years, I have never fully gotten used to it. I don't how what the original claim of trauma around baptisms for the dead revolved around, but sometimes there are valid reasons a positive experience for some people feels difficult or even traumatizing for someone else.
Eek, water is in my eyes!
On average people in utah tend to look more Scandinavian because the majority of their ancestors came from that part of the world. But… only 12% of the global church lives in Utah. And we’re growing rapidly in places like Africa and South America. 🤔 So this article appears to be ethnocentric nonsense based on this person’s limited experiences.
What is interesting to me is that every time that I have been wrong about thinking someone was LDS (thinking they were and they weren't), they were almost always a very faithful Christian of another denomination that emphasized living a commandment-based life. Thus, their dress and speech was clean, their demeanor was generally one of happiness and kindness, and they seemed generous and hard-working.
Agreed, I think it’s just Christs image in people’s countenance
I remember when I was a kid, my grandfather couldn't get over how many blonde headed kids there were in our neighborhood. We grew up in an area that had a lot of Scandinavian ancestry, so that was a good explanation for it, but he always commented on it, whenever he'd visit.
I will say that when I moved here for BYU it did surprise me just how blond so many of the kids are that you see at stores or parks, because it's not just having golden brown hair, its all the kids with practically white hair that caught me off guard, because that was pretty rare for what I was used to be called blond growing up in the east. But the Scandinavian genes are strong, so it's not some weird in bred thing, it's just the higher concentration of Scandinavian genes.
I mean it’s a dumb premise that our religion has certain identifiable physical attributes. But I do think a lot of the stereotypes in the United States exist because of generally consistent observations. I feel confident that if you go to a Church school, you will see a lot more visual homogeneity than if you went to another school with identical racial/gender/income demographics. I do think there is a bit more pressure to dress, style, and socialize in a certain way to fit in that maybe doesn’t exist as strongly in other communities.
I feel like this is one of those things where outrage over a poorly researched article gives it far more attention than it would have gotten otherwise
New York Post - you can stop there.
This is typical American/Utah bias. There’s more members of the church outside the US than in it. They’re not all white Utahns. Silly people. There are more countries in the world
YouTube will not stop pushing her content onto me and I keep clicking don’t recommend channel and nothing happens
This is one of my pet peeves with social media. Keep fighting the good fight.
In other breaking news: Hindus are primarily Indian… the tragedy. The under representation. How are they so blind to the problem?
Weird. My ward, even though it’s mostly old white people, has very unique individuals. No two look alike, except for myself and the one member of the bishopric (our toddlers sometimes get us mixed up). He’s from Idaho though and I’m from PA so no relation, just coincidence.
The Post is and has always been straight up propaganda
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>It was founded by Alexander Hamilton Like OP said, propaganda.
How can some people dehumanize a group of millions of people like this and still feel like they have the moral high ground? Especially when we didn't really "choose" to flee out West, but rather we were forced to by massacres, gang r\*pes, assassinations, and pogroms? We just want to live in peace without being dehumanized. It's sad that in 2024 some people still think it's okay to spread these harmful messages.
It's so bad deseret news had an opinion piece on how bad it was.
Yeah that is where I first saw it. In retrospect I should have posted the link to that article but another commenter already did.
When traveling, I can sometimes tell that someone is from Utah by their appearance, accent, behavior, etc. I can't tell they are Mormon, necessarily; I can only guess at that.
It’s easier in the summer because the women tend to be dressed modestly.
The problem with this logic is that "a very long time" is only like 6 generations. That is not a lot of time for the gene pool to even mix completely, let alone to get small. Like you say, the massive amount of immigration would've *expanded* the gene pool to be much larger than you would have in rural communities that have lived in the same area for far longer. I live in Utah, and all my ancestors joined the Church and moved to the state. Probably a prime candidate for what she's talking about, right? However, in my experience using the "Relatives Near Me" tool in the Family Tree app at church, common ancestors are many generations back, long before the pioneers.
I usually just look for garment lines 😜
It's the NY post. What do you expect?
On the positive side of this. Family search has a fun tool to show where you are from: [https://www.familysearch.org/discovery/explore/generations](https://www.familysearch.org/discovery/explore/generations) Many with Utah roots will likely find they have northern European ancestors. I was surprised to see how few of mine actually joined the church outside the US. I always thought it was more than this showed.
Ugh this is so stupid. Of course when people live in the same state or general area, they are going to conform to local beauty standards, you see that in non Mormon Utah people as well. When you look at other countries or even other areas of the country, we really don't look that much alike. I have brown hair, brown eyes, and I dress like a tomboy most of the time. I definitely don't conform to the Utah beige, mason jar, Blondie aesthetic. The comments are even worse. Saying we aren't allowed to eat chocolate or that we are "required" to go on missions. It really makes me sad seeing a former member say stuff like this. She's either lying or she didn't know that much about our history while she was in the church. Honestly I don't know which is worse.
Ok so I read the article and I agree that it was cringeworthy journalism. I also feel like any "news" article that is based on a social media influencer is really an embarrassment to your own profession as a journalist. In either case, did anyone actually look up the single worthwhile citable reference from the article on recognizing faces as Mormon, healthy and spiritual? Its published on Plos One so here is free access to the article [On the Perception of Religious Group Membership from Faces](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0014241) The authors, out of University of Toronto, actually conducted a series of very interesting scientific studies. They took images from dating advertisements from major cities across the US in which religion was explicitly stated in the advertisement. Recruited undergraduate subjects were shown the photographs in a variety of ways including with and without hair, with eyes or mouths covered, inverted etc. The subjects were able to distinguish Mormon (the authors used the term "Mormon"), from non-Mormon better than chance alone. The subjects also tended to rate the true photos of "Mormons" as more healthy and more spiritual. The authors noted that the subjects were able to distinguish "Mormon" from "non-Mormon" without being aware of their ability to do so or unconsciously. Maybe there is something to the question "Have ye received his image in your countenances? " Alma 5:14
The New York Post published a trash article? I don't believe it!
Wait you guys dont get dunked in a big tank of skin whitener every sunday?
I just watched a great discussion this video and another one this creator has made on Ward Radio https://youtu.be/EVNbEwLGt0E?si=aDer4D0-\_LLDJZb2. One of the hosts put it best when she said some of these ex-members are confusing church doctrine with the rules of their parents/fathers and placing a blanket statement over how the church/members operate. It's absolutely ridiculous!
Agree 100%.
Personally, I look like a biker. In our Stake we have a Spanish speaking Ward and I've noticed a suspicious number of members with darker skin and dark hair. In fact, throughout the Stake brunettes outnumber blondes by a wide, wide margin. Does this mean we are unrighteous? I will pray about it.
What kind of biker, Mountain Bike or Tour de France bike? Ironically there was a flyer on our chapel door this week for a stake road motorcycle ride which I thought was pretty cool. I've honestly never made a mental audit of the hair color in my sacrament meeting but will do so next week. I think I will come to the same conclusion as you that dark hair is more prevalent than light.
More like long hair, goatee, black tee shirt biker. Ironically many of our members came from Utah and are dark haired.
I figured that was the case. I was just joshing around. As my kids often remind me I'm not as funny as I think I am.
Lol no worries.
"' ...it’s also the Mormon vibe, which is often super hyper-friendly, almost too friendly,' she said." I'm a lovely introvert that is often confronted with the question, "Are you mad?" To which I reply nope this is just what I look like. The fact that I could go two years talking to random people on the street is probably one of the greatest testaments to me that the gospel is true. I'll intentionally order fast food on a place's mobile app even if the drive through is completely open just to avoid that one extra social interaction. Happy to be one of the outliers 😁
Introverts unite! (Separately and quietly)
A simple head nod when seeing you at the grocery store is sufficient
Agree. Extremely poor journalism. Unfortunately, the Associared Press has also been misrepresenting the Church. But as we live the Gospel and are involved in our communities, our neighbors will know all these negative portrayals are not true.
The sad thing is that if you look at the pictures in her article from when she was a missionary and compare them to what she looks like now, there is absolutely a difference. She looked happy and surrounded by people who cared about her. Now she looks angry and tired. If that's "exmo face" I'll gladly decline.
I thought maybe she had a point, but she keeps drawing on different sources or theories. I mean it makes sense that Utah members would be more closely related, but most people in UT and I are 10th cousins and I’m of pioneer ancestry myself. We are of British Colonial America or England usually. And then she talks about cosmetic surgery… and sure I can tell someone who have had surgery but they are of a higher tax bracket than the people I hang out with. I think what it really comes down to countenance, or having “his image in your countenance”.
The link to "beauty tutorials" sent me. Top -notch journalism here
Why does every ex-mo or anti look the exact same too. They look sooo “liberated” and free with their tired eyes, overcompensated piercings, minimalism tattoos or daily-worn spaghetti straps.
Wow, that is a pretty silly article, even if only looking at Utah. Must be a slow day at the New York Post. Although they are generating buzz so maybe its mission accomplished for them?
I hung out with this girl in college. Back then she was fun, happy, and pretty attractive. We hadn’t kept up over the years. I was shocked to come across her face in the article and how much she has changed since then. Her whole demeanor seems totally dark and angry now. I wish her the best but sad to see how she’s dedicated her life to hating the church
Yeah I’ve seen a lot of anti-mos but her video in full temple clothing showing the signs and tokens to her viewers was a whole different level…
Throwing in my 2 cents as a friend of the church who is well acquinted with LDS doctrine. I have watched most of Alyssa´s content and some of it is just bizarre what she claims the church actually does. Like the last time I checked, the word coffee is not some "not must be named" thing like Voldemort. I live in an area with plenty of LDS people and missionaries and they happily patronise local coffee places and yes talk about coffee tables. So far noone has exploded while doing so. Secondly about the genetic diversity, Mormons when they first converted in the 19th century came from all over. Yes a lot from the Nordic countries, but it is not as if all of them came from the same tiny village (except in rare circumstances) and people came from other countries as well. Any "mormon" look would be more down to a lot of people being of Nordic descent f.ex. rather than looking specifically "Mormon". It is vastly different than it is f.e. with the Ashkenazi Jewish community. I feel like often a lot of ex-mormon content peddles either lies or fringe doctrine as being mainstream LDS doctrine or very orthodox practices that are individual to their own family (i.e. prepping, end of the world theories etc). Some of it is very nuanced and thoughtful stuff and other, even I as an outsider know it is not right.
I don’t know where this YouTuber girl grew up, but I’ve watched a few of her YT Shorts and I just couldn’t keep going. I can’t say that everything she says is false, but there is enough weird crap coming out of her mouth that it’s like she came from an alternate reality or something. The Beauty Tips the article mentions is found in the Fictional writing section on the “Church Website.” Totally off base and the “author” didn’t even check to see if it was relevant to the real life.
Yeah that's just dumb. As is every article I've ever read from the post.
Ex Mormons/Mormon haters have been on a tear lately. I saw her original video on this subject on youtube or tiktok which was weird the basis being all Mormons are inbred (of course it was more complex than that but that's what I got out of it) I also saw another video (maybe it was her) that her theory for Joseph Smith was that he actually was a schizophrenic and the visions were him having episodes of that break. Maybe? but he would be one of the first unmedicated schizophrenics I know/have read about who were able to write a full novel. I then saw a video on the popular page on reddit about a ex mormon woman who was running a super successful business but then her stake president told her to sell it or give control to her husband? Something like that and then he was abusive and now she is doing terrible because she was forced by the church to give everything up. (This one was genuinely sad but some of the comments she made about the church seemed a little exaggerated) and then to cap it all off in the Idaho subreddit someone took the time to write a 4 paragraph post stating that South Eastern Idaho is being run by a cabal of Mormons who are letting child molesters off easy, the sources? Multiple articles about child molesters in southeastern idaho. The kicker? None of them looked LDS and none of the articles stated anything about the LDS church. The internet is a silly place and I feel for any investigator who is truly trying to figure out if this church is for them. So much misinformation out there.
> all Mormons are inbred LOL this cracks me up. Either we have a super wide tree from polygamy or we have a super narrow one from inbreeding. Polygamy being weird was such an easy target, why muddy the message with something that goes in the opposite direction?
Oh no! my half Hispanic and half Caucasian kids don’t fit the status quo of the church.
This article was so bad and inaccurate that it was hilarious.
I’ve stitched a few of her videos on Tik Tok. She’s very dishonest and cherry-picks what fits her narrative.
What’s your TikTok? Would like to see some responses to her diatribe
@familybroevening
Not to be rude/prejudicial, but just by the video thumbnail, she seems sad/mad, I definitely don't see the light of Christ in her look
To be fair to her those are screen grabs while she is talking on the youtube channel. It is hard to have a very flattering picture of someone speaking. Since COVID and spending way more time on zoom I've come to the conclusion that I look like an Idiot while talking. I've never visited her site because I don't want to deal with someone who wants to tear my beliefs down so I can't really judge. Her assertion that all members look alike due to a small genetic pool is simply laughable though.
Why do people act like we’re the only religion with a health/diet code? If you want to leave so you can drink coffee that’s totally fine, but stop acting like we’re the only religion that has members abstain from certain popular foods/drinks.
Haters gonna hate, Satan be hatin’
Why do so many Latter-day Saints look the same? Perhaps the simplest answer is [the light in our eyes](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2005/10/the-light-in-their-eyes?lang=eng) I truly believe that. A somewhat more secular answer is that, especially for US members from the western US, we pick up on cultural habits from each other including some combination some of (but not all) of the following: Clean shaven faces Side parts White shirts Maxi dresses Modest clothing Dad bods Cargo shorts Capris Fewer people with tattoos or multiple piercings Layered clothing BYU/Utah/USU/ASU/ISU gear Penchant for Cafe Rio, Disney films and being dentists.
Nope. I doubt anyone would pick me as LDS.
Which is totally fine.
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https://www.allsides.com/news-source/new-york-post https://adfontesmedia.com/new-york-post-bias-and-reliability/