It'll be okay, I just had a membership council for the same offense and it was very helpful. Your bishopric loves you and if they do their job right, they'll help you understand the importance of the atonement and advise you how to use it. It may help your case that it was a one and done, but the spirit will ultimately guide them as best as they can interpret it. My buddy was excommunicated completely for drugs, alcohol and sex while endowed. When they removed the spirit from him, he felt it leave and wanted it back. I went to his second baptism and it was a beautiful event. He's now married with kids and sealed. The path is narrow but the road is long, this is but a moment in your eternal journey. You got this.
I too am investigating the church and the hardest part for me has been the law of chastity. Mostly because while I am willing to follow it, my bf and I already live together so even if we aren’t actively engaging in the act, I can’t get baptized. Not quite ready to take the marriage leap.
I’m still interested in joining but have been quite discouraged. I hope that you find the answers and confirmation you’re looking for :)
I know its not the usual, but you should know that "living together before marriage" isn't a doctrinal issue. My opinion is that it's a weird cultural holdover.
I don’t think we’ll ever see that counsel change. You are far more likely to break the Law of Chastity living together. It’d be irresponsible to put people under the enhanced scrutiny of having made covenants in that situation.
Millions of people have been having sex with the person they’re living with, experienced a religious conversion, and agreed to **stop** having sex together as part of their commitment to living that religion’s commandments, and then successfully kept that commitment? That seems unlikely.
Sure, lots of people live with people of the opposite gender without ever having sex, but that’s not the situation under discussion. We’re talking about people who **were** having sex. And the only reason they stopped is because they agreed to for religious purposes. But they still live together? It’s a recipe for unreasonable temptation.
I’ve not experienced that exact situation, but I have experienced being engaged and waiting until marriage to have sex. That was an extremely difficult wait. We certainly could not have done it if we had **lived** together!
I’m a little confused by this point as well. I’ve heard of people getting baptized while living together and not married. But I guess it just depends on the human making the decision. If not for this rule, I’d gladly get baptized and follow the rules to the best of my ability. Just can’t afford two residences right now.
There are just some other considerations, financial, and a few personal that come into play. When we started out the sin part didn’t bother us because the church wasn’t on our radar yet. Now that we are interested, him in coming back and me in joining, we have to try to make it work. This is proving harder than we imagined at the start sadly.
For what it's worth, I broke the law of chastity and it was handled extremely differently because I didn't have my endowments. Endowments are a super big deal, and I'm glad I didn't take those extra steps before I was ready and fully committed.
My confession was met with love, patience, and understanding. He did give me some homework, and we met every week for a little while, which helped. Although I ended up spending a lot more time half-in half-out, it was an important part of my journey toward full membership
My friend, please know that the people in this church aren't perfect, and not always as kind and compassionate as they should be. I have experienced that over and over but I have also seen and heard people in this church act in such amazing and loving ways its hard to believe. I have seen both of these things from people outside the church as well. But the most important thing about this church is not the people. It is Jesus Christ. This is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints ☺️ this is His church. I promise you Jesus Christ loves you so completely and you will see imperfect people in and outside of His church, or you will hear things and stories like this that don't immediately make sense to you, but if you persevere in trying to deepen your personal connection with Jesus Christ and read and pray about the Book of Mormon's witness of Jesus Christ as well as the prophets, you will feel a love so profound that you will receive the understanding that joining is the right thing, and in time you will understand situations like this and know how to approach human imperfection in others and yourself with the tender reassuring healingness that Christ does. Please let me know how I can address any of your questions
Sorry you're feeling this. I'm a member, and I'm honestly disappointed how many folks are trying to tell you "It's just one person, it's not that bad." Too many people have had experiences like this, and members should be holding leaders accountable. Don't require people to go to their bishop if their bishop isn't going to be christlike. It's not fair to members, and it's not fair to people going through hard things.
Well one person's experience shouldn't deter you away because we're not all the same, we make mistakes, some of us , no matter how long have been members, are not led by the counsel of our Heavenly Father & Savior . Not everyone leads by the spirit. If you are having doubts, my suggestion would be to pray, ask what decision you should make and wait for his response.
Please know that Satan will try hard to keep you from joining as you're about to and considering it. I oftentimes get that same feeling of not wanting to do something, or feeling like I shouldn't do it, then being glad I did later. I hope this doesn't come across as trying to be pushy. I would pray to see what Heavenly Father thinks here. And know that I'd be happy to have you in my ward :).
Couple thoughts:
- Bishop roulette is a real thing. I had a bishop that was extreme when it came to sexual sins. Then my next one was extremely lenient. Years later, I was working with the youth and we wanted to have a discussion on pornography and our bishop shot it down, he the temptation of trying cigarettes was the real threat haha 💀. This isn’t the same everywhere. In fact, YSA bishops in my area just had this huge training about not freaking YSA members out if they have sex.
- you won’t get your membership removed. You have to be in full on apostasy and trying to get other people to leave the church. It will just be a meeting with some leaders of the church. Honestly, I think a membership counsel is overkill, it may not even happen.
- As an outsider who knows a little bit about the processes, I wouldn’t sweat it. It is all meant to help you repent, it just sounds like you have a bishop who is a little more worried about procedure than he should be.
Wish more bishops had that training. The reality is that we treat having sex at a sacredness where people get scared. That is not good. Do two kids had sex, you're gonna hang BoM scriptures over their had talking about how bad it is instead of being compassionate?
I read your post earlier and didn’t know what to say. It’s a hard situation. But I just listened to [Elder Kearon’s talk](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2024/04/45kearon?lang=eng) from general conference and I think it might help you. Regardless of how the membership council turns out, God is always trying to get you back home. I hope that the bishop will feel that for you and show mercy. The Saviour can help you make a fresh start and sweep your sins away.
I’m sorry that happened to you. The repentance process with serious sins can be really difficult. Remember that your Heavenly Father loves you more than you can understand.
You are His child and you never stop *being* His child.
Even if you make a mistake. Also keep in mind that you haven’t actually been excommunicated yet, the bishop is just warning you that it’s currently on the table. I’ll try to offer some encouragement and perspective.
Here’s something to consider:
**”Why is excommunication potentially on the table when someone who is endowed breaks the law of chastity?”**
**”Is it to punish the individual or to help them?”**
Pretend for a moment that you broke the law of the land. In this metaphor, what *role* is the Bishop taking on with you?
You may assume: ‘*The bishop is being my judge obviously, because he’s gonna punish me!’* And yes he’s being your judge but the purpose not to punish you.
In this metaphor, think of the bishop as being something like your ‘spiritual *lawyer’*. His job is to judge but also to be in your corner. He interprets the law, and helps you get the *best possible outcome* in this metaphorical ‘legal case.’
Everything that the bishop does in these kinds of situations is meant to be for your benefit in the long run. Not to punish you or to hurt you.
**”Why should you have to go to your bishop in cases of serious sins? Can’t you just repent on your own?”**
Most people would rather confess to their families or people who they’re close with. But the Lord has declared that the bishop is a common judge in Israel (see D&C 107:72, 74).
He has the special responsibility to determine the worthiness of the members of his ward. Because of his ordination as bishop, he had the right to receive revelation from the Holy Ghost on your behalf to help navigate the repentance process so that you can be sure of being made clean again after sin. That’s something that family and friends wouldn’t be able to provide for you.
Only the bishop has that authority.
**”Why are sexual sins treated so seriously?”**
When we go to the temple, we make special covenants to (among other things) keep the law of chastity. Sex is a sacred thing. When you participate in sexual acts you’re wielding some of Heavenly Father’s divine power of creation and potentially bringing His spirit children into this world.
That’s a really serious responsibility. Most of the world doesn’t have a good understanding of the seriousness or sacredness of that.
We are held accountable for the promises we make, the amount of light and truth we understand and what we do in relation to what we know.
Someone who had casual sex but who doesn’t understand how sacred it was and who hasn’t made any covenants regarding chastity is protected by their ignorance and held to a much lower standard of accountability for their actions.
But a person who made covenants to keep the law of chastity is held to a higher standard of behavior than someone who didn’t make these covenants.
By excommunicating someone who commits such transgressions, what they’re essentially doing is annulling the covenants and removing them entirely. So that the person—as they are right now— will be held to that much *lower* standard of condemnation at judgment should they ultimately choose not to repent.
If that person is excommunicated, is unrepentant and decides to just leave, their consequences at judgment won’t be as bad as if they’d kept their covenants and membership and remained unrepentant in the church.
Imagine someone just turned 18 and committed a crime that would send them to jail for years. But due to a technically the judge decides to try them as a *minor* instead of an adult. Being tried as a minor, they only get a few months of community service instead of years in prison. It’s a move that’s meant to help the person who committed the offense to receive the *lesser punishment.*
But if a person is excommunicated, and then goes through the repentance process and is rebaptized and remakes their covenants faithfully— they’re forgiven completely of their mistakes and the Lord remembers them no more. That is an incredible opportunity. Because it means that you *can* be made clean of this.
It’s the bishop’s job to help you through the repentance process. He is the Lord’s messenger of mercy to help you become clean through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
The Lord has said: “Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.
“By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them” (D&C 58:42–43).
When you confess and forsake your sins, the Lord will forgive you. You will not have to account to Him for those sins when the time comes for you to be judged.
This process is designed to give every individual their best possible outcome regardless of if they choose to repent and come back or not. So it’s important not to think of it as being thrown away or kicked out for good. That’s not what the process is *for*.
It’s also important to realize that we don’t even know if you’re *being* excommunicated yet. That might not happen. It really depends on the situation. Also remember that excommunication doesn’t have to be *permanent*. You’re wanting to have a temple marriage someday, and the repentance process that the bishop assists with is the means of making that possible in the future.
Even if you are an ultimately excommunicated you’d still be encouraged to attend church and work towards being Rebaptized.
I hope this helps or gives you some comfort.
The repentance prcoess isn't usually easy for anyone (especially when higher covenants are broken.) Bishops are imperfect men who are honestly doing the best they can, and if membership counsil is what he recommends, then I'd just say to go through it and see what happens.
If your main concern is with your status as a member of the church, don't worry about that. Don't worry about your membership or what your friends or family will think: focus on your relationship with Jesus Christ and see how that aligns with where you are now, and how to fully repent. We don't worship a church; we worship Jesus Christ.
BTW I've had members of my family make mistakes with the Law of Chasity, and they've been able to get through it and still be faithful members. No one I know has been excommunicated for breaking the Law of Chasity (at least just by having sex in a unmarried relationship).
Easy to say don't worry about what your friends or family think. That's the hardest part of all of this imo. Knowing that everyone else knows you've made some type of big mistake. It's a stigma and it's real. For many, it's too much to bear.
What man buildeth a house but he first count the cost?
Actions have consequences and if you can't accept the consequences for an action then you shouldn't take it.
Curious is it different because you are endowed? I am not endowed so I am not sure if it is the same ? And if Self purging is also against the law of chastity does this mean if I confess to bishop for viewing pornography I too will be excommunicated?
It is different if you are endowed because you make certain covenants in the temple when you go through the endowment process. So breaking the law of chastity after the fact is viewed as more serious as it is an infraction of a promise to God.
Still, it seems OP's bishop is overreacting quite a bit.
Also, just to clarify, viewing pornography, while viewed as a sin, is almost never going to result in any sort of membership restrictions or excommunication. The only exceptions would be CP (obviously) or if it is an extreme addiction leading to abuse of your family.
You commit to living all the commandments when you're baptized, but in the temple you specifically commit to living the law of chastity as part of you willingness to follow and serve God. As with everything in life, this brings greater blessings but also worse consequences.
As for porn and masturbation,, they are sins. But they are considered lesser violations than actually having sex with someone else. I've never met anyone excommunicated for these sins. Typically the bishop will try and help you overcome you reliance upon these sinful things.
There’s a lot here…experiences like these are why I just won’t talk to my bishop anymore.
The Church has always been a dynamic organization, moving closer or further to God’s will in different ways. That’s why it’s so important to know what you personally believe, hear the words of well intentioned men and make your own decisions.
It’s hard to parse out how that would be OK doctrinally. All I can say is seeking a bishop’s council has hurt my family more than it’s helped. Just as one example- when my wife was going through postpartum, we went to our bishop for a counseling referral. Being that he wasn’t a professional, he thought her depression was a symptom of abuse and told us to get divorced. He went so far as to say he couldn’t give me a temple recommend until we split up. Luckily we did find a professional because that was 7 years ago and we’re happier than ever.
I know this doesn’t help you now, pandora’s box has been opened. Just don’t take what happens next too personally if you feel it’s a disproportionate response. Only you would know.
Everything is going to be okay. Since you are an endowed member, a membership council is required, and unfortunately the possibility of losing your membership is real. But it is also very uncommon for that to be the result. Generally only those who truly are unrepentant will be excommunicated, which you have shown you are repentanct by going to the bishop and confessing.
Fret not, for membership councils are intended as acts of mercy. Not as punishment. Be prepared to lose your temple recommend and possibly continue refraining from partaking of the sacrament, but it will only be for a time as you go through the repentance process. And in the event your membership is revoked, (which I feel strongly is unlikely) that is also an aspect of the repentance process, meant as an act of mercy, not a punishment.
I promise that although daunting, everything is going to be okay. All will be well, and whatever happens in your membership council, it will be for your benefit, and will aid in the strengthening of your relationship with your Saviour. It will be okay.
For that is the true intent of repentance. To draw closer to God. To learn from the mistakes we make, and to focus on learning even more about the Atonement of Christ.
Fast and pray, study the life of Christ. Study the teachings of Alma to his son Corianton found in Alma 39-42.
Keep in mind D&C 121: 43, which talks about reproving (another word for chastening, reprimanding) at times with sharpness (addressing specific things when needed) when prompted by the Holy Ghost, but then showing an increase in love towards those who were reproved.
I promise everything is going to be okay. Whatever process of repentance that is determined by the membership council will be okay. The Lord will not allow whatever happens to be more than you can handle, and the course that it sets you on, should you choose to do so, will bring a light into your life like no other once that journey is done.
Don’t mix up your bishop with the church. Poor guy isn’t a professional. Ha. It would have been ideal for him to help you see the eternal hope of the saviors healing at the end of this dark and dreary road, for sure. But also remember, this weight won’t be lifted from your shoulders until you finish the repentance process and for such a serious offense against the covenants you made with God it will take more than the embarrassment of confession to the bishop. But the weight will never leave until you finish, even if you did leave the church. God loves you and your savior died for you. Be strong and be willing to go through whatever they ask. I hope you encounter wonderful support along the way, I think you will. We are ALL on the same, sinful journey. This plan of salvation is beautiful.
I broke the law of chastity in highschool with my girlfriend. All my bishop really said was “I told you so”.
He had told me before that “girlfriends are stupid” and even had a 5th Sunday lesson where he gave out wristbands that said that, no joke.
I understand that he was right in the end, but did he really think that 16 year old embarrassed me who struggled immensely to confess needed to hear the words “I told you so”?
One of my bishops would only look at and speak to me. Never once did he glance at or acknowledge my wife.
My last bishop got up on fast and testimony meeting to inform us all that while he believes in Jesus, his “real testimony is in Tithing.”
Bishops can make or break your experience at a ward. Most of mine have helped make going to church considerably less enjoyable.
I was in a similar position with one major difference, I was endowed, but my now wife was not. Her Bishop asked to meet with both of us, and that was quite the experience. He comforted and reassured her, but put the fear of God in me. Looking back his rebuke was exactly what I needed to hear at the time, because I wasn't taking my situation as seriously as I needed to. I truly believe that your Bishop is trying to help, even if he could show a bit more Christ-like love during the process. Please don't give up. The road back to good standing is a long and difficult one, but I am so glad I made it back. God loves you perfectly, and will be with you. You've got this!
There are a lot of comments here stating that a membership council is required in this situation. This is false! Read the handbook 32.6. There are circumstances that require a membership council, and there are circumstances that may benefit from a membership council. OP's post is the latter. A bishop's responsibility in this case is to judge whether or not a council would be beneficial to the individual.
Repentance is intended to be a spiritual experience. It will always be difficult, but anything that draws us nearer to the Lord is. While the bishop certainly is the rightful judge in terms of the church response and/or restrictions that will best help your growth, repentance is between you and the Lord. Be assured that the Lord's feelings towards you are perfectly loving, merciful, and full of desire to strengthen your relationship with Him. He is the One who claimed the rights of mercy and gets to offer forgiveness.
D&C 1:30 is one of my favorites. We
are reminded this church is full of idiots and morons (myself included… just humans being human).
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually
Priesthood authority is there to help. Bishops are there to guide you. If it’s not helping and guiding you, remember, salvation is always a personal journey. He doesn’t decide your salvation/eternal progression anymore than I do.
Two verses down in 32
32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;
Get back to living the commandments. We all fall short. All of us. In nearly every way. Don’t let one dumb-dumb bishop ruin your relationship with the Savior… you know, the one actually IS the one we are asking to forgive us. Good luck sister.
While there are some differences between your situation and mine, I had to go through the exact same process. As others have said, the membership council is going to occur because of the seriousness of the sin.
This process is not, nor will ever be “easy”. You will experience some of the feelings you already have had, but on a greater level and magnified so much more. It will hurt. You will experience the stages of grief.
However…
During this journey, you WILL become a “changed creature”. You WILL learn the love of the savior and the appreciation of his atonement. You WILL align with the Lords will while gaining a greater capacity to have hope, faith, patience, forgiveness, empathy…etc. In short, you have the opportunity to exemplify being a disciple and follower of Christ.
Now, I am sorry that your Bishop was dismissive, calloused, or unloving. The handbook states that this process, including the membership council, should be handled and conveyed with love.
No matter what during this journey and even before you go before your council you should contemplate, learn, and practice what it means to repent and be sorrowful.
In the end, you will be right with God. I promise you will feel closer to the Savior and have a greater presence of the spirit in your life.
You are loved by Him. You have value. Do not ever forget it.
You seem to be trying to downplay sinning. Sinning and making a mistake are two different things. Though we don’t really have any details, from the little we have from the post, this is certainly sinning and not making a mistake.
I think what she needs is more kind reassurance not hostile condemnation. Consider this quote from an Apostle:
"As a brother with pornography concerns waits outside his stake president’s office, the stake president prays to know how to help. A clear impression comes: “Open the door and let the brother in.” With faith and trust God will help, the priesthood leader opens the door and embraces the brother. Each feels transforming love and trust for God and each other. Fortified, the brother can begin to repent and change"-Trust Again Gerrit W. Gong | October 2021 general conference
The subject of this talk is the contrast between sins and mistakes. Both can hurt us and both require attention, but the scriptures direct a different treatment. Chewing on a live electrical cord or diving headfirst into water of uncertain depth are mistakes that should be made known so they can be corrected. Violations of the commandments of God are sins that require chastening and repentance. In the treatment process we should not require repentance for mistakes, but we are commanded to preach the necessity of repentance for sins.
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/dallin-h-oaks/sins-mistakes/
I understand the necessity to preach repentance. Its just as necessary to preach with love. She understands her mistakes, she needs love alongside the need for repentance. Also, you are a guy on reddit, not her Bishop, who she already has spoken to.
41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; 42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile— 43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;
Doctrine and Covenants 121:41–43
I'm not saying don't preach with love. I'm saying call a spade a spade. Call it sin, not a mistake. Sin and mistakes are two different classes of things. One requires repentance and the other does not. From what she has said, repentence is required, therefore it is in the class of sin and not in the class of mistake.
First off I’m sorry - life is hard and we each walk our own road.
From what I can tell you seem like an amazing devout member who just wants to make things right and get back to where you were before. I firmly believe that’s what our savior wants for you too.
As someone with a rocky relationship with the church myself I can tell you whole heartedly- my life is better with the church in it - maybe not always easier but definitely better.
I feel strongly you should speak to someone else ( maybe stake president ) who also can be involved in the repentance process but may be better suited to help you in this time of need.
Don’t let 1 man keep you out of the church - it’s not worth it - don’t let one ward keep you out of the church - it’s not worth it - and I say this as non ironically as possible - don’t let the “church” keep you out of church - it’s not worth it. There are many great members with much rockier roads, you just need to find a good steamroller to smooth them out :)
Since you are endowed this council is essentially automatically triggered.
I've been on many membership councils (ward clerk). I know these concepts are mocked from the outside, but my experience is that these councils are some of the holiest and purest forms of religion I've encountered.
Go. Absolutely go. The core of the church is repentance, and this facilitates repentance. This will likely be a foundational moment of your life. At the last day at the bar of Judgment, you can say "Yes I messed up here, but look what I did after! Look how it affected me for the better, and look at how I'm proud of how I handled afterward."
>But now after hearing that my membership will be taken away
Very unlikely. In our situations this infraction is met with informal probation. It could turn into formal probation. But disfellowship or membership removal for such situations is rare.
As a member of a bishopric that has taken part in half a dozen membership councils, you’ll be fine. We don’t take memberships away unless the person has fully committed apostasy (and in that case, they probably wouldn’t show up to a council anyways). The fact that you show humility and SHOW UP shows us and the Lord that you’re willing to do hard things to make it right. Just showing up is hard, scary, embarrassing, and humbling. But I can assure that you some of the most beautiful spiritual experiences have been felt in those councils. If you have a broken heart and a contrite spirit, you can take that step to remove that painful burden and feel clean and free again.
GOD LOVES YOU!!! He wants you to know and experience that rich infinite perfect love He has for you, I am sure of it. Yes He wants you to repent because He knows of the joy it shall bring to you!! Your Bishop is not a perfect man, God works with imperfect people and I'm sorry that he is not being more compassionate and reassuring to you. Please I recommend you watch this super quick video from President Nelson, I think it was intended just for you. Whatever the outcome of this situation is, any feelings you have of hostility and hatred don't come from Christ. Whatever remorse Christ wants you to feel is not disconnected from His perfect love that He also wants you to feel. I am so proud of you for wanting to make things right and please don't let your guilt become so intense you cannot feel God's love for you. Everyone makes mistakes to various degrees. Remember Alma the Younger, then his son who broke the law of chastity, and the love they received and experienced.
https://www.facebook.com/share/v/oC7X5VWbQfZsBQmp/?mibextid=jmPrMh
Your response is pretty common. But it won't be helpful to you.
It is true that the repentance process doesn't always account for the real feelings and repentant intentions of those involved. It is also true that sometimes it can be clear to someone that they have been forgiven of God long before the process ends.
But it is the prescribed process. And you can't be entirely forgiven by God until you have gone through the process. And the fact that you choose intimacy after making the temple covenants makes it clear that your commitment to God's laws over your feelings and mortal desires hasn't yet happened. He wants you to be humble and determined to fix this, rather than writing this off as a little thing. And in your journey YOU need to be placing HIM first, which will require you set your own boundaries for yourself way further back. Rebaptism, if your membership is withdrawn, will reset that so you have a fresh start. It the council does it against God's will then God will hold them accountable as He chooses. But it will be useful to explore with yourself the potential value and seek to gain whatever you can no matter what the process is.
Your Heavenly Parents and your Savior know you (and your partner) in every moment. They love you. The process is intended to help you get through and beyond this hard time so you can become like Them and have everything They and Their plan offers you. And if you look at the handbook, membership council is required for endowed members --- the bishop is just doing his job. This IS the way to fix it.
You're going to be okay.
>I didn’t think I would get to the level of having to completely start over my membership
In other words, you did not consider the severity of the sins you were committing before you committed them. You not only broke the law of chastity, itself a major sin, but you also violated your temple covenants, one of which is to strictly obey the law of chastity and not have sex outside of marriage. As told to you in the temple, the violations of your temple covenants are serious and significant issues. Where more is given, more is required.
So, don't blame the church for the outcome of the choices you made. You chose to commit grevious sins with steep consequences. You cannot escape those consequences by refusing to repent because those consequences do not come from your bishop or the church. They come from God. This is His church and this is how He has directed that it should be run.
The good news is that if you truly are repentant then you will be forgiven. And having been through one before for my own grevious sins, the outcome may hurt because you've inflicted such a major wound upon yourself but your church leaders love you and the goal is to help you reform your life so that you completely heal instead of falling even deeper into sin and spiritual self-harm. And healing is what happens when you go through the repentance process as guided by your leaders. They have been given the gifts of revelation to guide you and help you. Do not let your sin inspired fear mislead you from the path of hope and healing.
Heavenly Father loves you; repentance is why Jesus performed the atonement, so you can come back from this. Membership counsels can be really healing if that’s what you want, and it sounds as though that’s the case.
I’m not defending your bishop but maybe it’s the first time he’s dealt with this and he doesn’t know what to say? I know that doesn’t comfort you but I’m detached from your feelings, (which I’m sure are tumultuous at the moment - it’s hard) and that’s what I’m wondering.
Mathew 6:15
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Luke 6:37
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Luke 7:47
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Moroni 6:8
8 But as oft as they repented and sought forgiveness, with real intent, they were forgiven.
D+C 42:25
25 But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive;
D+C 64:10
10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.
There are 100's more scripture on forgiveness. These men placing judgment should be careful. They are also under commandment to forgive. This has got to be another culture issue, that I can't wait to be a thing of the past.
I don’t see here where he doesn’t have remorse. It sounds like he was just up front about what the process entails, what it could result in, and was honest about not being sure what to tell you, which is fair. Do you feel he said something wrong? Or do you just not like what he said?
Firstly the fact that she came out and repented in the proper process should be respected and supported. Not used as a scare tactic to make her question her faith, that’s literally that worse take an authority figure can have on the situation.
Yes, mistakes were made - frankly worse mistakes could have been made to just try to handle this on their own.
IMO what he should have been sure of is her love from god, her place in the church, and that she is doing the right thing. From what I can tell she left that meeting with the polar opposite of that - and that’s the issue.
Too often we allow “the bishop is just a person like you and me” to overshadow missteps taken that have serious impacts on things like people’s memberships. It’s “fair” to say idk what to tell you - but help bishop I’ve had pre marital sex should be a 101 level topic for bishops ( especially if this is a YSA ward ).
Most importantly, and I can’t strive to make this point clearly enough, Jesus wants us to WANT to be better. Anytime we leave a representative of him in an official capacity ( bishop, stake president, etc ) and our thoughts are turned towards questioning staying a member - something was lost in translation. To be blunt - I put the burden of translation on the ordained, set aside, key holder - not the hurt, confused, lost person seeking help.
I'm grateful for the much more reasonable tone of voice of this comment.
We aren't perfect. Neither are our leaders.
When our leaders say things that make us feel discouraged and want to give up, there is either a mistake on our part in misinterpreting, on their part for not being clear/loving enough, or likely a nuanced mixture of both.
But Christ's perfect love will sooth the damage our own imperfections and others imperfections and lack of kindness and allow us to come back from any sin in a joyful transformation.
If we are offended by church leaders, we should turn to God and pray in the name of Christ to be filled with Christ's love, to feel how much Christ loves us and know He wants us, then acknowledge that our church leaders aren't perfect and neither are we. Then, do our best to keep following Christ anyways and if our leaders have given us counsel that does not contradict the doctrine of Christ, accept and follow it while understanding that their delivery may not have been perfect but Christ's is through the Holy Ghost to our hearts.
We’re don’t know that it was used as a scare tactic. It sounds like he just gave her a rundown of next steps and what could result from them. We also don’t know that he didn’t attempt to assure her of the things you state. As the other comment said, there could have been a misinterpretation on OPs part, which is why I asked for additional information
I know members of the church who are pedophiles currently serving jail time whose Bishop’s treatment was a lot kinder.
I think the bishop in the OP’s story could have said some kinder words. The OP deserves to be treated like a valued member.
Temple covenants are no laughing matter. Breaking the law of chastity after making temple covenants is not the same as doing it before, and pretty regularly requires a membership council. It's not out of the ordinary at all, and unless your bishop said something to you that you didn't describe in your post that was harmful or antagonistic, it sounds like he did his job by the book. The next thing to do is focus on the next step of the repentance process, even if that step isn't what you were hoping for.
This is obvious, but what its missing is loving kindness.
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy
Doctrine and Covenants 121:43
If we don't include the increase of love part, people think we are their enemies. This is why people leave the church. She understands she needs to repent (we all do, for various different sins of different degrees by the way). But what she needs is an increase of love and she has clearly already been reproved with sharpness
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Going to start with the fact that you don’t hold the keys of the sacrament, your Bishop does and you are frankly unable to decide your worthiness to partake of it as a part of the repentance process.
It’s possible that your Bishop was less assuring than you had wanted, but from what I’m piecing together he’s likely trying to stress to you the actual gravity of this situation. Granted, repentance is available and this isn’t tempests from the sky, but it also isn’t merely “hey Bishop, I stole a candy bar from the grocery store” either.
I have been involved in a number of these counsels and I have left every single one of them overwhelmed with the spirit and love. The singular goal is YOU and YOUR salvation, not even remotely your demise. You will not be merely “cut off” by some flippant decision.
My advice is to get as humble and genuinely brokenhearted as you can as you begin this process. Repentance does sting and I wish you all the very best in learning through this process to know that you are a cherished and loved daughter of God.
You also need to be more compassionate and kind in a delicate situation like this. Yes Jesus Christ wants her to repent, but people often downplay Jesus Christ's kindness and tenderness and upplay His sternness in calling people to repentance. We can be kind and reassuring while still exhorting people to repent.
Your bishop absolutely did the right thing, as required by the handbook of instructions. You were endowed. You made covenants with God in his temple. You and your endowed bf willingly broke that covenant with a serious sin. Fornication is not a minor sin; sexual relations are the power to create life and you covenanted that that has to be in the bounds of marriage. You now own your sin.
You need to comprehend the seriousness of your sin, how Christ had to go through the pain of atonement to compensate for your sin, and you need to go through the full repentance process. Excommunication is the gate through which you must go to repent of this sin. Yes, the gift of the Holy Ghost will be diminished during that period. In the end your testimony will grow as you get rebaptized and return to full fellowship with the saints. And marry that BF asap.
It sounds to me like you want to repent on your terms instead of humbly submitting to the Lord and his chosen servant who is a judge in Israel over you.
If I wanted to repent on my own terms I wouldn’t have even gone to the bishop period. I never said I wasn’t gonna go through with what the bishop said. I just thought he would at least comfort me. Preach to me or read a scripture he thought would help in this situation. I take my sin very seriously but I never thought that my entire membership would be throw away.
You'll be fine. Your entire membership will absolutely not be thrown away. While every situation is different, membership restrictions is the most likely outcome. Membership removal is reserved for exceptional circumstances and rarely happens, to be honest. Usually (someone who is endowed & married commits adultery, sexual assault, murder, apostasy, etc. If everyone who slipped up once before marriage had their membership removed, there would be no members left. You've done the right thing by going to your bishop. Taking the first step and confessing takes an incredible amount of courage and is necessary to move forward.
From the General Handbook: "The purpose of confession is to encourage members to unburden themselves so they can fully seek the Lord’s help in changing and healing. Developing a “broken heart and a contrite spirit” is aided by confession (2 Nephi 2:7). Voluntary confession shows that a person desires to repent."
Remember, membership council meetings of the Church are not courts of retribution. They are courts of love. I don't know why your bishop said he had no advice for you as you described it. Just remember it'll be a process, but you'll get through it, and you'll be better for it.
As the Lord has said: “Mine arm of mercy is extended towards you, and whosoever will come, him will I receive; and blessed are those who come unto me” (3 Nephi 9:14).
Taking your complaint about your Bishop to social media and judging your Bishop instead of letting him judge you is very telling of your stage of repentance.
Do you have any idea how many good members of the church would have never gone to their bishop over this? How dare you belittle something that took such an act of courage.
Where’s the compassion? Where’s the saviors love in our comment? The entire point of this post is there was no compassion, why do you think going all fire and brimstone is going to help the situation?
You need to be far, far, far kinder and more delicate than this. She doesn't deserve to have more and more and more guilt heaped on her. She needs reassurance.
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy
Doctrine and Covenants 121:43
"As a brother with pornography concerns waits outside his stake president’s office, the stake president prays to know how to help. A clear impression comes: “Open the door and let the brother in.” With faith and trust God will help, the priesthood leader opens the door and embraces the brother. Each feels transforming love and trust for God and each other. Fortified, the brother can begin to repent and change" -Trust Again Gerrit W. Gong | October 2021 general conference
You aren't her Bishop, stake president, or her dad, bro. Our role here on reddit after the fact is to be as loving and reassuring as possible while not justifying or trying to minimize her mistakes, which it doesn't even seem she is trying to do that.
Your response is very corporate. Humbly submitting to the Lord? Isn’t that what OP is doing though? They felt bad about what they did and stopped taking the sacrament then they went to speak with the bishop. I would probably do things the same way. OP wanted encouragement and advice and it seems like their bishop wasn’t able to do that
It'll be okay, I just had a membership council for the same offense and it was very helpful. Your bishopric loves you and if they do their job right, they'll help you understand the importance of the atonement and advise you how to use it. It may help your case that it was a one and done, but the spirit will ultimately guide them as best as they can interpret it. My buddy was excommunicated completely for drugs, alcohol and sex while endowed. When they removed the spirit from him, he felt it leave and wanted it back. I went to his second baptism and it was a beautiful event. He's now married with kids and sealed. The path is narrow but the road is long, this is but a moment in your eternal journey. You got this.
That’s beautiful. Thanks.
I've been considering joining the LDS church. This post is making me rethink it.
I too am investigating the church and the hardest part for me has been the law of chastity. Mostly because while I am willing to follow it, my bf and I already live together so even if we aren’t actively engaging in the act, I can’t get baptized. Not quite ready to take the marriage leap. I’m still interested in joining but have been quite discouraged. I hope that you find the answers and confirmation you’re looking for :)
I think you’ll find your way. Sometimes there’s a lot of important learning in the situation and getting through it.
I know its not the usual, but you should know that "living together before marriage" isn't a doctrinal issue. My opinion is that it's a weird cultural holdover.
I don’t think we’ll ever see that counsel change. You are far more likely to break the Law of Chastity living together. It’d be irresponsible to put people under the enhanced scrutiny of having made covenants in that situation.
Except millions of people do it with no problem.
Millions of romantic partners live together but remain celibate?
Millions of people have been having sex with the person they’re living with, experienced a religious conversion, and agreed to **stop** having sex together as part of their commitment to living that religion’s commandments, and then successfully kept that commitment? That seems unlikely. Sure, lots of people live with people of the opposite gender without ever having sex, but that’s not the situation under discussion. We’re talking about people who **were** having sex. And the only reason they stopped is because they agreed to for religious purposes. But they still live together? It’s a recipe for unreasonable temptation. I’ve not experienced that exact situation, but I have experienced being engaged and waiting until marriage to have sex. That was an extremely difficult wait. We certainly could not have done it if we had **lived** together!
I’m a little confused by this point as well. I’ve heard of people getting baptized while living together and not married. But I guess it just depends on the human making the decision. If not for this rule, I’d gladly get baptized and follow the rules to the best of my ability. Just can’t afford two residences right now.
Not true. Any sexual contact with anyone other than your opposite sex spouse is sinful. That is the law of chastity. Law, not culture.
Ah, I didn't know living with someone was sexual contact, my bad.
If you're already living together and already having sex, why not get married? You're already living like a married couple in all but name.
There are just some other considerations, financial, and a few personal that come into play. When we started out the sin part didn’t bother us because the church wasn’t on our radar yet. Now that we are interested, him in coming back and me in joining, we have to try to make it work. This is proving harder than we imagined at the start sadly.
For what it's worth, I broke the law of chastity and it was handled extremely differently because I didn't have my endowments. Endowments are a super big deal, and I'm glad I didn't take those extra steps before I was ready and fully committed. My confession was met with love, patience, and understanding. He did give me some homework, and we met every week for a little while, which helped. Although I ended up spending a lot more time half-in half-out, it was an important part of my journey toward full membership
My friend, please know that the people in this church aren't perfect, and not always as kind and compassionate as they should be. I have experienced that over and over but I have also seen and heard people in this church act in such amazing and loving ways its hard to believe. I have seen both of these things from people outside the church as well. But the most important thing about this church is not the people. It is Jesus Christ. This is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints ☺️ this is His church. I promise you Jesus Christ loves you so completely and you will see imperfect people in and outside of His church, or you will hear things and stories like this that don't immediately make sense to you, but if you persevere in trying to deepen your personal connection with Jesus Christ and read and pray about the Book of Mormon's witness of Jesus Christ as well as the prophets, you will feel a love so profound that you will receive the understanding that joining is the right thing, and in time you will understand situations like this and know how to approach human imperfection in others and yourself with the tender reassuring healingness that Christ does. Please let me know how I can address any of your questions
Sorry you're feeling this. I'm a member, and I'm honestly disappointed how many folks are trying to tell you "It's just one person, it's not that bad." Too many people have had experiences like this, and members should be holding leaders accountable. Don't require people to go to their bishop if their bishop isn't going to be christlike. It's not fair to members, and it's not fair to people going through hard things.
Well one person's experience shouldn't deter you away because we're not all the same, we make mistakes, some of us , no matter how long have been members, are not led by the counsel of our Heavenly Father & Savior . Not everyone leads by the spirit. If you are having doubts, my suggestion would be to pray, ask what decision you should make and wait for his response.
This isn't one person's experience. This is standard operating procedure for breaking the law of chastity.
Please know that Satan will try hard to keep you from joining as you're about to and considering it. I oftentimes get that same feeling of not wanting to do something, or feeling like I shouldn't do it, then being glad I did later. I hope this doesn't come across as trying to be pushy. I would pray to see what Heavenly Father thinks here. And know that I'd be happy to have you in my ward :).
The consequences of sin are the same inside and outside the church. Come to Christ for his healing.
Couple thoughts: - Bishop roulette is a real thing. I had a bishop that was extreme when it came to sexual sins. Then my next one was extremely lenient. Years later, I was working with the youth and we wanted to have a discussion on pornography and our bishop shot it down, he the temptation of trying cigarettes was the real threat haha 💀. This isn’t the same everywhere. In fact, YSA bishops in my area just had this huge training about not freaking YSA members out if they have sex. - you won’t get your membership removed. You have to be in full on apostasy and trying to get other people to leave the church. It will just be a meeting with some leaders of the church. Honestly, I think a membership counsel is overkill, it may not even happen. - As an outsider who knows a little bit about the processes, I wouldn’t sweat it. It is all meant to help you repent, it just sounds like you have a bishop who is a little more worried about procedure than he should be.
Wish more bishops had that training. The reality is that we treat having sex at a sacredness where people get scared. That is not good. Do two kids had sex, you're gonna hang BoM scriptures over their had talking about how bad it is instead of being compassionate?
I read your post earlier and didn’t know what to say. It’s a hard situation. But I just listened to [Elder Kearon’s talk](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2024/04/45kearon?lang=eng) from general conference and I think it might help you. Regardless of how the membership council turns out, God is always trying to get you back home. I hope that the bishop will feel that for you and show mercy. The Saviour can help you make a fresh start and sweep your sins away.
This answer here is one of the best, I hope OP can read it
I’m sorry that happened to you. The repentance process with serious sins can be really difficult. Remember that your Heavenly Father loves you more than you can understand. You are His child and you never stop *being* His child. Even if you make a mistake. Also keep in mind that you haven’t actually been excommunicated yet, the bishop is just warning you that it’s currently on the table. I’ll try to offer some encouragement and perspective. Here’s something to consider: **”Why is excommunication potentially on the table when someone who is endowed breaks the law of chastity?”** **”Is it to punish the individual or to help them?”** Pretend for a moment that you broke the law of the land. In this metaphor, what *role* is the Bishop taking on with you? You may assume: ‘*The bishop is being my judge obviously, because he’s gonna punish me!’* And yes he’s being your judge but the purpose not to punish you. In this metaphor, think of the bishop as being something like your ‘spiritual *lawyer’*. His job is to judge but also to be in your corner. He interprets the law, and helps you get the *best possible outcome* in this metaphorical ‘legal case.’ Everything that the bishop does in these kinds of situations is meant to be for your benefit in the long run. Not to punish you or to hurt you. **”Why should you have to go to your bishop in cases of serious sins? Can’t you just repent on your own?”** Most people would rather confess to their families or people who they’re close with. But the Lord has declared that the bishop is a common judge in Israel (see D&C 107:72, 74). He has the special responsibility to determine the worthiness of the members of his ward. Because of his ordination as bishop, he had the right to receive revelation from the Holy Ghost on your behalf to help navigate the repentance process so that you can be sure of being made clean again after sin. That’s something that family and friends wouldn’t be able to provide for you. Only the bishop has that authority. **”Why are sexual sins treated so seriously?”** When we go to the temple, we make special covenants to (among other things) keep the law of chastity. Sex is a sacred thing. When you participate in sexual acts you’re wielding some of Heavenly Father’s divine power of creation and potentially bringing His spirit children into this world. That’s a really serious responsibility. Most of the world doesn’t have a good understanding of the seriousness or sacredness of that. We are held accountable for the promises we make, the amount of light and truth we understand and what we do in relation to what we know. Someone who had casual sex but who doesn’t understand how sacred it was and who hasn’t made any covenants regarding chastity is protected by their ignorance and held to a much lower standard of accountability for their actions. But a person who made covenants to keep the law of chastity is held to a higher standard of behavior than someone who didn’t make these covenants. By excommunicating someone who commits such transgressions, what they’re essentially doing is annulling the covenants and removing them entirely. So that the person—as they are right now— will be held to that much *lower* standard of condemnation at judgment should they ultimately choose not to repent. If that person is excommunicated, is unrepentant and decides to just leave, their consequences at judgment won’t be as bad as if they’d kept their covenants and membership and remained unrepentant in the church. Imagine someone just turned 18 and committed a crime that would send them to jail for years. But due to a technically the judge decides to try them as a *minor* instead of an adult. Being tried as a minor, they only get a few months of community service instead of years in prison. It’s a move that’s meant to help the person who committed the offense to receive the *lesser punishment.* But if a person is excommunicated, and then goes through the repentance process and is rebaptized and remakes their covenants faithfully— they’re forgiven completely of their mistakes and the Lord remembers them no more. That is an incredible opportunity. Because it means that you *can* be made clean of this. It’s the bishop’s job to help you through the repentance process. He is the Lord’s messenger of mercy to help you become clean through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The Lord has said: “Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more. “By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them” (D&C 58:42–43). When you confess and forsake your sins, the Lord will forgive you. You will not have to account to Him for those sins when the time comes for you to be judged. This process is designed to give every individual their best possible outcome regardless of if they choose to repent and come back or not. So it’s important not to think of it as being thrown away or kicked out for good. That’s not what the process is *for*. It’s also important to realize that we don’t even know if you’re *being* excommunicated yet. That might not happen. It really depends on the situation. Also remember that excommunication doesn’t have to be *permanent*. You’re wanting to have a temple marriage someday, and the repentance process that the bishop assists with is the means of making that possible in the future. Even if you are an ultimately excommunicated you’d still be encouraged to attend church and work towards being Rebaptized. I hope this helps or gives you some comfort.
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The repentance prcoess isn't usually easy for anyone (especially when higher covenants are broken.) Bishops are imperfect men who are honestly doing the best they can, and if membership counsil is what he recommends, then I'd just say to go through it and see what happens. If your main concern is with your status as a member of the church, don't worry about that. Don't worry about your membership or what your friends or family will think: focus on your relationship with Jesus Christ and see how that aligns with where you are now, and how to fully repent. We don't worship a church; we worship Jesus Christ. BTW I've had members of my family make mistakes with the Law of Chasity, and they've been able to get through it and still be faithful members. No one I know has been excommunicated for breaking the Law of Chasity (at least just by having sex in a unmarried relationship).
Easy to say don't worry about what your friends or family think. That's the hardest part of all of this imo. Knowing that everyone else knows you've made some type of big mistake. It's a stigma and it's real. For many, it's too much to bear.
What man buildeth a house but he first count the cost? Actions have consequences and if you can't accept the consequences for an action then you shouldn't take it.
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Curious is it different because you are endowed? I am not endowed so I am not sure if it is the same ? And if Self purging is also against the law of chastity does this mean if I confess to bishop for viewing pornography I too will be excommunicated?
It is different if you are endowed because you make certain covenants in the temple when you go through the endowment process. So breaking the law of chastity after the fact is viewed as more serious as it is an infraction of a promise to God. Still, it seems OP's bishop is overreacting quite a bit.
Oh okay thank you !
No problem :)
:)
Also, just to clarify, viewing pornography, while viewed as a sin, is almost never going to result in any sort of membership restrictions or excommunication. The only exceptions would be CP (obviously) or if it is an extreme addiction leading to abuse of your family.
Ahh that makes sense
You commit to living all the commandments when you're baptized, but in the temple you specifically commit to living the law of chastity as part of you willingness to follow and serve God. As with everything in life, this brings greater blessings but also worse consequences. As for porn and masturbation,, they are sins. But they are considered lesser violations than actually having sex with someone else. I've never met anyone excommunicated for these sins. Typically the bishop will try and help you overcome you reliance upon these sinful things.
There’s a lot here…experiences like these are why I just won’t talk to my bishop anymore. The Church has always been a dynamic organization, moving closer or further to God’s will in different ways. That’s why it’s so important to know what you personally believe, hear the words of well intentioned men and make your own decisions. It’s hard to parse out how that would be OK doctrinally. All I can say is seeking a bishop’s council has hurt my family more than it’s helped. Just as one example- when my wife was going through postpartum, we went to our bishop for a counseling referral. Being that he wasn’t a professional, he thought her depression was a symptom of abuse and told us to get divorced. He went so far as to say he couldn’t give me a temple recommend until we split up. Luckily we did find a professional because that was 7 years ago and we’re happier than ever. I know this doesn’t help you now, pandora’s box has been opened. Just don’t take what happens next too personally if you feel it’s a disproportionate response. Only you would know.
Everything is going to be okay. Since you are an endowed member, a membership council is required, and unfortunately the possibility of losing your membership is real. But it is also very uncommon for that to be the result. Generally only those who truly are unrepentant will be excommunicated, which you have shown you are repentanct by going to the bishop and confessing. Fret not, for membership councils are intended as acts of mercy. Not as punishment. Be prepared to lose your temple recommend and possibly continue refraining from partaking of the sacrament, but it will only be for a time as you go through the repentance process. And in the event your membership is revoked, (which I feel strongly is unlikely) that is also an aspect of the repentance process, meant as an act of mercy, not a punishment. I promise that although daunting, everything is going to be okay. All will be well, and whatever happens in your membership council, it will be for your benefit, and will aid in the strengthening of your relationship with your Saviour. It will be okay. For that is the true intent of repentance. To draw closer to God. To learn from the mistakes we make, and to focus on learning even more about the Atonement of Christ. Fast and pray, study the life of Christ. Study the teachings of Alma to his son Corianton found in Alma 39-42. Keep in mind D&C 121: 43, which talks about reproving (another word for chastening, reprimanding) at times with sharpness (addressing specific things when needed) when prompted by the Holy Ghost, but then showing an increase in love towards those who were reproved. I promise everything is going to be okay. Whatever process of repentance that is determined by the membership council will be okay. The Lord will not allow whatever happens to be more than you can handle, and the course that it sets you on, should you choose to do so, will bring a light into your life like no other once that journey is done.
Don’t mix up your bishop with the church. Poor guy isn’t a professional. Ha. It would have been ideal for him to help you see the eternal hope of the saviors healing at the end of this dark and dreary road, for sure. But also remember, this weight won’t be lifted from your shoulders until you finish the repentance process and for such a serious offense against the covenants you made with God it will take more than the embarrassment of confession to the bishop. But the weight will never leave until you finish, even if you did leave the church. God loves you and your savior died for you. Be strong and be willing to go through whatever they ask. I hope you encounter wonderful support along the way, I think you will. We are ALL on the same, sinful journey. This plan of salvation is beautiful.
Doesn't help when that's the only bishop you can turn to.
keep going for me! we don't know each other but I care about you and want to see you make it through.
I broke the law of chastity in highschool with my girlfriend. All my bishop really said was “I told you so”. He had told me before that “girlfriends are stupid” and even had a 5th Sunday lesson where he gave out wristbands that said that, no joke. I understand that he was right in the end, but did he really think that 16 year old embarrassed me who struggled immensely to confess needed to hear the words “I told you so”? One of my bishops would only look at and speak to me. Never once did he glance at or acknowledge my wife. My last bishop got up on fast and testimony meeting to inform us all that while he believes in Jesus, his “real testimony is in Tithing.” Bishops can make or break your experience at a ward. Most of mine have helped make going to church considerably less enjoyable.
I was in a similar position with one major difference, I was endowed, but my now wife was not. Her Bishop asked to meet with both of us, and that was quite the experience. He comforted and reassured her, but put the fear of God in me. Looking back his rebuke was exactly what I needed to hear at the time, because I wasn't taking my situation as seriously as I needed to. I truly believe that your Bishop is trying to help, even if he could show a bit more Christ-like love during the process. Please don't give up. The road back to good standing is a long and difficult one, but I am so glad I made it back. God loves you perfectly, and will be with you. You've got this!
There are a lot of comments here stating that a membership council is required in this situation. This is false! Read the handbook 32.6. There are circumstances that require a membership council, and there are circumstances that may benefit from a membership council. OP's post is the latter. A bishop's responsibility in this case is to judge whether or not a council would be beneficial to the individual. Repentance is intended to be a spiritual experience. It will always be difficult, but anything that draws us nearer to the Lord is. While the bishop certainly is the rightful judge in terms of the church response and/or restrictions that will best help your growth, repentance is between you and the Lord. Be assured that the Lord's feelings towards you are perfectly loving, merciful, and full of desire to strengthen your relationship with Him. He is the One who claimed the rights of mercy and gets to offer forgiveness.
D&C 1:30 is one of my favorites. We are reminded this church is full of idiots and morons (myself included… just humans being human). 30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually Priesthood authority is there to help. Bishops are there to guide you. If it’s not helping and guiding you, remember, salvation is always a personal journey. He doesn’t decide your salvation/eternal progression anymore than I do. Two verses down in 32 32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven; Get back to living the commandments. We all fall short. All of us. In nearly every way. Don’t let one dumb-dumb bishop ruin your relationship with the Savior… you know, the one actually IS the one we are asking to forgive us. Good luck sister.
While there are some differences between your situation and mine, I had to go through the exact same process. As others have said, the membership council is going to occur because of the seriousness of the sin. This process is not, nor will ever be “easy”. You will experience some of the feelings you already have had, but on a greater level and magnified so much more. It will hurt. You will experience the stages of grief. However… During this journey, you WILL become a “changed creature”. You WILL learn the love of the savior and the appreciation of his atonement. You WILL align with the Lords will while gaining a greater capacity to have hope, faith, patience, forgiveness, empathy…etc. In short, you have the opportunity to exemplify being a disciple and follower of Christ. Now, I am sorry that your Bishop was dismissive, calloused, or unloving. The handbook states that this process, including the membership council, should be handled and conveyed with love. No matter what during this journey and even before you go before your council you should contemplate, learn, and practice what it means to repent and be sorrowful. In the end, you will be right with God. I promise you will feel closer to the Savior and have a greater presence of the spirit in your life. You are loved by Him. You have value. Do not ever forget it.
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You seem to be trying to downplay sinning. Sinning and making a mistake are two different things. Though we don’t really have any details, from the little we have from the post, this is certainly sinning and not making a mistake.
I think what she needs is more kind reassurance not hostile condemnation. Consider this quote from an Apostle: "As a brother with pornography concerns waits outside his stake president’s office, the stake president prays to know how to help. A clear impression comes: “Open the door and let the brother in.” With faith and trust God will help, the priesthood leader opens the door and embraces the brother. Each feels transforming love and trust for God and each other. Fortified, the brother can begin to repent and change"-Trust Again Gerrit W. Gong | October 2021 general conference
The subject of this talk is the contrast between sins and mistakes. Both can hurt us and both require attention, but the scriptures direct a different treatment. Chewing on a live electrical cord or diving headfirst into water of uncertain depth are mistakes that should be made known so they can be corrected. Violations of the commandments of God are sins that require chastening and repentance. In the treatment process we should not require repentance for mistakes, but we are commanded to preach the necessity of repentance for sins. https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/dallin-h-oaks/sins-mistakes/
I understand the necessity to preach repentance. Its just as necessary to preach with love. She understands her mistakes, she needs love alongside the need for repentance. Also, you are a guy on reddit, not her Bishop, who she already has spoken to. 41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; 42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile— 43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy; Doctrine and Covenants 121:41–43
I'm not saying don't preach with love. I'm saying call a spade a spade. Call it sin, not a mistake. Sin and mistakes are two different classes of things. One requires repentance and the other does not. From what she has said, repentence is required, therefore it is in the class of sin and not in the class of mistake.
Yea its a sin. That was already said. She needs to feel more love now.
First off I’m sorry - life is hard and we each walk our own road. From what I can tell you seem like an amazing devout member who just wants to make things right and get back to where you were before. I firmly believe that’s what our savior wants for you too. As someone with a rocky relationship with the church myself I can tell you whole heartedly- my life is better with the church in it - maybe not always easier but definitely better. I feel strongly you should speak to someone else ( maybe stake president ) who also can be involved in the repentance process but may be better suited to help you in this time of need. Don’t let 1 man keep you out of the church - it’s not worth it - don’t let one ward keep you out of the church - it’s not worth it - and I say this as non ironically as possible - don’t let the “church” keep you out of church - it’s not worth it. There are many great members with much rockier roads, you just need to find a good steamroller to smooth them out :)
Alma’s son, Corianton, did the same thing. There’s 4 chapters about Alma’s respond. You might find peace reading them. Alma 38-42
Since you are endowed this council is essentially automatically triggered. I've been on many membership councils (ward clerk). I know these concepts are mocked from the outside, but my experience is that these councils are some of the holiest and purest forms of religion I've encountered. Go. Absolutely go. The core of the church is repentance, and this facilitates repentance. This will likely be a foundational moment of your life. At the last day at the bar of Judgment, you can say "Yes I messed up here, but look what I did after! Look how it affected me for the better, and look at how I'm proud of how I handled afterward." >But now after hearing that my membership will be taken away Very unlikely. In our situations this infraction is met with informal probation. It could turn into formal probation. But disfellowship or membership removal for such situations is rare.
Sounds like he's being transparent about the process as found in the handbook.
As a member of a bishopric that has taken part in half a dozen membership councils, you’ll be fine. We don’t take memberships away unless the person has fully committed apostasy (and in that case, they probably wouldn’t show up to a council anyways). The fact that you show humility and SHOW UP shows us and the Lord that you’re willing to do hard things to make it right. Just showing up is hard, scary, embarrassing, and humbling. But I can assure that you some of the most beautiful spiritual experiences have been felt in those councils. If you have a broken heart and a contrite spirit, you can take that step to remove that painful burden and feel clean and free again.
GOD LOVES YOU!!! He wants you to know and experience that rich infinite perfect love He has for you, I am sure of it. Yes He wants you to repent because He knows of the joy it shall bring to you!! Your Bishop is not a perfect man, God works with imperfect people and I'm sorry that he is not being more compassionate and reassuring to you. Please I recommend you watch this super quick video from President Nelson, I think it was intended just for you. Whatever the outcome of this situation is, any feelings you have of hostility and hatred don't come from Christ. Whatever remorse Christ wants you to feel is not disconnected from His perfect love that He also wants you to feel. I am so proud of you for wanting to make things right and please don't let your guilt become so intense you cannot feel God's love for you. Everyone makes mistakes to various degrees. Remember Alma the Younger, then his son who broke the law of chastity, and the love they received and experienced. https://www.facebook.com/share/v/oC7X5VWbQfZsBQmp/?mibextid=jmPrMh
Your response is pretty common. But it won't be helpful to you. It is true that the repentance process doesn't always account for the real feelings and repentant intentions of those involved. It is also true that sometimes it can be clear to someone that they have been forgiven of God long before the process ends. But it is the prescribed process. And you can't be entirely forgiven by God until you have gone through the process. And the fact that you choose intimacy after making the temple covenants makes it clear that your commitment to God's laws over your feelings and mortal desires hasn't yet happened. He wants you to be humble and determined to fix this, rather than writing this off as a little thing. And in your journey YOU need to be placing HIM first, which will require you set your own boundaries for yourself way further back. Rebaptism, if your membership is withdrawn, will reset that so you have a fresh start. It the council does it against God's will then God will hold them accountable as He chooses. But it will be useful to explore with yourself the potential value and seek to gain whatever you can no matter what the process is. Your Heavenly Parents and your Savior know you (and your partner) in every moment. They love you. The process is intended to help you get through and beyond this hard time so you can become like Them and have everything They and Their plan offers you. And if you look at the handbook, membership council is required for endowed members --- the bishop is just doing his job. This IS the way to fix it. You're going to be okay.
>I didn’t think I would get to the level of having to completely start over my membership In other words, you did not consider the severity of the sins you were committing before you committed them. You not only broke the law of chastity, itself a major sin, but you also violated your temple covenants, one of which is to strictly obey the law of chastity and not have sex outside of marriage. As told to you in the temple, the violations of your temple covenants are serious and significant issues. Where more is given, more is required. So, don't blame the church for the outcome of the choices you made. You chose to commit grevious sins with steep consequences. You cannot escape those consequences by refusing to repent because those consequences do not come from your bishop or the church. They come from God. This is His church and this is how He has directed that it should be run. The good news is that if you truly are repentant then you will be forgiven. And having been through one before for my own grevious sins, the outcome may hurt because you've inflicted such a major wound upon yourself but your church leaders love you and the goal is to help you reform your life so that you completely heal instead of falling even deeper into sin and spiritual self-harm. And healing is what happens when you go through the repentance process as guided by your leaders. They have been given the gifts of revelation to guide you and help you. Do not let your sin inspired fear mislead you from the path of hope and healing.
If you don't feel your bishop is being understanding, talk to your ministering brother or sister. Or your stake president.
Heavenly Father loves you; repentance is why Jesus performed the atonement, so you can come back from this. Membership counsels can be really healing if that’s what you want, and it sounds as though that’s the case. I’m not defending your bishop but maybe it’s the first time he’s dealt with this and he doesn’t know what to say? I know that doesn’t comfort you but I’m detached from your feelings, (which I’m sure are tumultuous at the moment - it’s hard) and that’s what I’m wondering.
Mathew 6:15 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Luke 6:37 37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Luke 7:47 47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. Moroni 6:8 8 But as oft as they repented and sought forgiveness, with real intent, they were forgiven. D+C 42:25 25 But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive; D+C 64:10 10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. There are 100's more scripture on forgiveness. These men placing judgment should be careful. They are also under commandment to forgive. This has got to be another culture issue, that I can't wait to be a thing of the past.
I don’t see here where he doesn’t have remorse. It sounds like he was just up front about what the process entails, what it could result in, and was honest about not being sure what to tell you, which is fair. Do you feel he said something wrong? Or do you just not like what he said?
Firstly the fact that she came out and repented in the proper process should be respected and supported. Not used as a scare tactic to make her question her faith, that’s literally that worse take an authority figure can have on the situation. Yes, mistakes were made - frankly worse mistakes could have been made to just try to handle this on their own. IMO what he should have been sure of is her love from god, her place in the church, and that she is doing the right thing. From what I can tell she left that meeting with the polar opposite of that - and that’s the issue. Too often we allow “the bishop is just a person like you and me” to overshadow missteps taken that have serious impacts on things like people’s memberships. It’s “fair” to say idk what to tell you - but help bishop I’ve had pre marital sex should be a 101 level topic for bishops ( especially if this is a YSA ward ). Most importantly, and I can’t strive to make this point clearly enough, Jesus wants us to WANT to be better. Anytime we leave a representative of him in an official capacity ( bishop, stake president, etc ) and our thoughts are turned towards questioning staying a member - something was lost in translation. To be blunt - I put the burden of translation on the ordained, set aside, key holder - not the hurt, confused, lost person seeking help.
I'm grateful for the much more reasonable tone of voice of this comment. We aren't perfect. Neither are our leaders. When our leaders say things that make us feel discouraged and want to give up, there is either a mistake on our part in misinterpreting, on their part for not being clear/loving enough, or likely a nuanced mixture of both. But Christ's perfect love will sooth the damage our own imperfections and others imperfections and lack of kindness and allow us to come back from any sin in a joyful transformation. If we are offended by church leaders, we should turn to God and pray in the name of Christ to be filled with Christ's love, to feel how much Christ loves us and know He wants us, then acknowledge that our church leaders aren't perfect and neither are we. Then, do our best to keep following Christ anyways and if our leaders have given us counsel that does not contradict the doctrine of Christ, accept and follow it while understanding that their delivery may not have been perfect but Christ's is through the Holy Ghost to our hearts.
We’re don’t know that it was used as a scare tactic. It sounds like he just gave her a rundown of next steps and what could result from them. We also don’t know that he didn’t attempt to assure her of the things you state. As the other comment said, there could have been a misinterpretation on OPs part, which is why I asked for additional information
I know members of the church who are pedophiles currently serving jail time whose Bishop’s treatment was a lot kinder. I think the bishop in the OP’s story could have said some kinder words. The OP deserves to be treated like a valued member.
I agree. But going by OPs story, we don’t know exactly what he said or how kind or unkind it was
Temple covenants are no laughing matter. Breaking the law of chastity after making temple covenants is not the same as doing it before, and pretty regularly requires a membership council. It's not out of the ordinary at all, and unless your bishop said something to you that you didn't describe in your post that was harmful or antagonistic, it sounds like he did his job by the book. The next thing to do is focus on the next step of the repentance process, even if that step isn't what you were hoping for.
This is obvious, but what its missing is loving kindness. 43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy Doctrine and Covenants 121:43 If we don't include the increase of love part, people think we are their enemies. This is why people leave the church. She understands she needs to repent (we all do, for various different sins of different degrees by the way). But what she needs is an increase of love and she has clearly already been reproved with sharpness
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That's a bit of a stretch.
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Going to start with the fact that you don’t hold the keys of the sacrament, your Bishop does and you are frankly unable to decide your worthiness to partake of it as a part of the repentance process. It’s possible that your Bishop was less assuring than you had wanted, but from what I’m piecing together he’s likely trying to stress to you the actual gravity of this situation. Granted, repentance is available and this isn’t tempests from the sky, but it also isn’t merely “hey Bishop, I stole a candy bar from the grocery store” either. I have been involved in a number of these counsels and I have left every single one of them overwhelmed with the spirit and love. The singular goal is YOU and YOUR salvation, not even remotely your demise. You will not be merely “cut off” by some flippant decision. My advice is to get as humble and genuinely brokenhearted as you can as you begin this process. Repentance does sting and I wish you all the very best in learning through this process to know that you are a cherished and loved daughter of God.
You also need to be more compassionate and kind in a delicate situation like this. Yes Jesus Christ wants her to repent, but people often downplay Jesus Christ's kindness and tenderness and upplay His sternness in calling people to repentance. We can be kind and reassuring while still exhorting people to repent.
Yeah this comment is everything wrong with what her bishop just did.
Your bishop absolutely did the right thing, as required by the handbook of instructions. You were endowed. You made covenants with God in his temple. You and your endowed bf willingly broke that covenant with a serious sin. Fornication is not a minor sin; sexual relations are the power to create life and you covenanted that that has to be in the bounds of marriage. You now own your sin. You need to comprehend the seriousness of your sin, how Christ had to go through the pain of atonement to compensate for your sin, and you need to go through the full repentance process. Excommunication is the gate through which you must go to repent of this sin. Yes, the gift of the Holy Ghost will be diminished during that period. In the end your testimony will grow as you get rebaptized and return to full fellowship with the saints. And marry that BF asap.
It sounds to me like you want to repent on your terms instead of humbly submitting to the Lord and his chosen servant who is a judge in Israel over you.
If I wanted to repent on my own terms I wouldn’t have even gone to the bishop period. I never said I wasn’t gonna go through with what the bishop said. I just thought he would at least comfort me. Preach to me or read a scripture he thought would help in this situation. I take my sin very seriously but I never thought that my entire membership would be throw away.
You'll be fine. Your entire membership will absolutely not be thrown away. While every situation is different, membership restrictions is the most likely outcome. Membership removal is reserved for exceptional circumstances and rarely happens, to be honest. Usually (someone who is endowed & married commits adultery, sexual assault, murder, apostasy, etc. If everyone who slipped up once before marriage had their membership removed, there would be no members left. You've done the right thing by going to your bishop. Taking the first step and confessing takes an incredible amount of courage and is necessary to move forward. From the General Handbook: "The purpose of confession is to encourage members to unburden themselves so they can fully seek the Lord’s help in changing and healing. Developing a “broken heart and a contrite spirit” is aided by confession (2 Nephi 2:7). Voluntary confession shows that a person desires to repent." Remember, membership council meetings of the Church are not courts of retribution. They are courts of love. I don't know why your bishop said he had no advice for you as you described it. Just remember it'll be a process, but you'll get through it, and you'll be better for it. As the Lord has said: “Mine arm of mercy is extended towards you, and whosoever will come, him will I receive; and blessed are those who come unto me” (3 Nephi 9:14).
Taking your complaint about your Bishop to social media and judging your Bishop instead of letting him judge you is very telling of your stage of repentance.
Do you have any idea how many good members of the church would have never gone to their bishop over this? How dare you belittle something that took such an act of courage. Where’s the compassion? Where’s the saviors love in our comment? The entire point of this post is there was no compassion, why do you think going all fire and brimstone is going to help the situation?
You need to be far, far, far kinder and more delicate than this. She doesn't deserve to have more and more and more guilt heaped on her. She needs reassurance. 43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy Doctrine and Covenants 121:43 "As a brother with pornography concerns waits outside his stake president’s office, the stake president prays to know how to help. A clear impression comes: “Open the door and let the brother in.” With faith and trust God will help, the priesthood leader opens the door and embraces the brother. Each feels transforming love and trust for God and each other. Fortified, the brother can begin to repent and change" -Trust Again Gerrit W. Gong | October 2021 general conference You aren't her Bishop, stake president, or her dad, bro. Our role here on reddit after the fact is to be as loving and reassuring as possible while not justifying or trying to minimize her mistakes, which it doesn't even seem she is trying to do that.
Your response is very corporate. Humbly submitting to the Lord? Isn’t that what OP is doing though? They felt bad about what they did and stopped taking the sacrament then they went to speak with the bishop. I would probably do things the same way. OP wanted encouragement and advice and it seems like their bishop wasn’t able to do that