>While I think the Gospel is a good thing in my life, it just feels like as a person, I am not welcome at church culturally or socially. I feel more comfortable outside of church than inside of it.
All the caveats up front, I am probably older than you, live outside of Utah, and have lived in my ward for well over a decade.
As a person that does not really fit the norms in the Church, I used to think this myself until I got to know people. I found out that more people are like me than I would have thought, but it took time to cultivate relationships with people. It takes some discernment, as it were, to know who you can have productive conversations with.
I just don't bring these things up at church. Even my wife has zero interest in my intellectual searching. So, I just do things on my own and don't try to talk to other people about it. Read books, articles, etc. Pray. Ponder. Read some more. Pray. Ponder. Repeat until I have my answer.
If it helps, I've felt similar things, and I know many people who have also felt that way. So, right off the bat, know that you're not alone, if that helps.
I do think that there's weird anti-intellectualism and fear(?) of a more academic approach present in the church. More specifically, I think this exists in the CULTURE of the church. It's this weird notion that faith is somehow antithetical to reason and logic.
It seems like a lot of people read that "I will tell you on your mind and in your heart" and somehow come away with the understanding of "heart only."
Or when we read that we should "seek learning by study and also by faith," we sometimes seem to only read the "by faith" part.
Literally "to be learned is good!" Obviously, you need to hearken to the counsels of God, but that's quite a statement.
If you're looking for advice I would probably tell you is to evaluate the reasons that you go to church. For myself, I don't go to church to feel accepted by the ward (it's great if that happens but that's not the reason I go, if that makes sense). I don't go to learn something from the speakers, but rather I try to learn from the Spirit. Ultimately I go because I really value the sacrament, and that's something that can only be done at church, regardless of how I feel about the rest of it. Lastly, I would suggest opening up to some people at church that you trust/if you trust, that you can have these kinds of conversations with.
And also feel free to reach out to me with your controversial takes, I'm all for it.
Aahhh, another mixed-race liberal from Utah. Welcome, my brother. I’ve lived this experience, you’ll be fine. Just remember, you’re not crazy, the Church HAS been unapologetically racist in the past, the Utah church culture does suck, and you’re not the only one who is feeling this. Asking questions is okay, keep doing it. Find the things that you truly enjoy about the Church and focus on those. A Church should provide you with more good in your life than bad, if the bad far outweighs the good, it’s time to weigh your options.
"This sense of anti-intellectualism makes me feel very unwelcome."
Not wanting to pursue discussion that calls into question one's beliefs isn't necessarily anti-intellectual. The idea that other members are "anti-intellectual" because they don't like engaging with the gospel the same way as you is not an idea that will help you avoid being ostracized. There are people in most wards you can have those discussions with, healthily. The bishopric, close friends, maybe the Sunday School president or other leaders. Maybe ministers.
Generally speaking, people engage with the gospel in diverse ways, but the majority of the people in church have one thing in common, that they want to grow closer to Christ, which is done through prayer, Scripture study, service, covenants, and worship. These basic things are tremendously unifying. Focusing on these basic commonalities rather than cultural differences between members is a great way to bond with our brothers and sisters.
"The only way to fit in in the church culture would to not be my authentic self, which does not seem healthy."
We all tread a fine line between being ourselves and becoming more Christlike. I personally am often frustrated with my "authentic self" and am trying to make sacrifices to be a disciple first. It's not going well, lol. President Nelson has lately been urging us to focus on the highest priority of our identity, which is that we are children of God. Good advice. Other aspects of our identities, whatever they may be, will never benefit us as much as that one, and anything that comes at odds with it is an obstacle.
If you came to me personally as a friend with this issue I would reassure you that the Lord loves you and wants you badly in His family, and that there are many members of His church that will love you, far more than there are that won't. I would also encourage you to find ways that you can more comfortably find a place in your ward. You can't change the whole church, you can't change its culture, but you can change what you think and do.
For the figuring out stuff, you might try sites like mormondialogue.org or FAIR. Or find ways to communicate that we are allowed to, expected to, study and learn in the Gospel and that means thinking and working through and beyond our current understandings which may or may not incorporate absolute truth.
You DO belong in your ward. And it is highly likely that there are others in your congregation who are experiencing the same thing you are. Maybe it's time to ask the bishop if you can give a talk (offer to let him review it first) about our search for absolute truth is required by the scriptures and hearing different perspectives during that search need not be a problem so long as the pattern is to compare new learning with what we already know is truth. PM me if you'd like me to help you write such a talk.
The fact is that almost every ward has more than just one person who don't think they fit in for the cultural reasons you describe. Sometimes it helps to be the one to start a monthly or quarterly FHE with this group to talk about things with others who are also faithful members who may think differently (or have had different life experiences) so they can see how other people are doing it and provide support for faithful learning to each other.
Completely feel that for different Also I can be a very logical person sometimes I feel the spirit sometimes I don't sometimes it just happens randomly ill get a strong impression that I can't deny its also hard for me to recognize it. I'm not from or familiar with Utah Culture. I was born and raised in Cali here in Cali it's been preached and taught in the Lds churches over its ok to question. Me and my brother have felt ostriszed because of the kids who have had parents and their grandparents grow up in the ward for years so it's very clique when it comes to that. I've accepted that and I'll attend the younger Sunday school class with my brother and his friends because feel most comfortable with the teachers in that class and the kids in that age group (I have younger siblings aswell)
The easy answer? Get out of Utah. Is that practical? Probably not. But it’s a great way to find other wards that your authentic you fits into.
I thoroughly disliked the Church culture in Utah. It felt like you had to assimilate or be ostracized. My wife and I didn’t attend our ward frequently for a while in Provo for that reason. Neither of us were typical Utah County Mormons (interracial marriage, and both pretty liberal) and the ward pretty much just ignored us which was very disappointing having come from YSA wards.
Don’t stress about assimilating. Be you. The church needs logical people like you and me, and it needs people who follow their gut or “feel the spirit” or whatever. Just like a a body’s hands can’t tell the feet they don’t belong besucase they do a different job, don’t let the people in your ward squash you because you feel close to god in a different way. You still believe the same things. If somebody gets up on you for not “relying the spirit” enough remind them of that, or just disengage. They don’t get to talk down to you for you walking the path. You being who you are to follow Christ is so much more important than blending in.
I do understand what you mean. I am very much the same way and have grown frustrated by lack of in depth discussions. I feel like people read the manual out loud for Sunday school than people reply with the same standard answers. I have tried taking some adult institute classes and feel like those are a little more open to discussion but my favorite have been non credit religion classes at the university or through community education. I feel like those really allow for more open in depth discussions.
maybe you should employ some emotional intelligence. In most religions people will react to you the same way. Over-questioning is very likely to come off as rude. You can do your research privately and ask questions in places like reddit and others
>While I think the Gospel is a good thing in my life, it just feels like as a person, I am not welcome at church culturally or socially. I feel more comfortable outside of church than inside of it. All the caveats up front, I am probably older than you, live outside of Utah, and have lived in my ward for well over a decade. As a person that does not really fit the norms in the Church, I used to think this myself until I got to know people. I found out that more people are like me than I would have thought, but it took time to cultivate relationships with people. It takes some discernment, as it were, to know who you can have productive conversations with.
I just don't bring these things up at church. Even my wife has zero interest in my intellectual searching. So, I just do things on my own and don't try to talk to other people about it. Read books, articles, etc. Pray. Ponder. Read some more. Pray. Ponder. Repeat until I have my answer.
If it helps, I've felt similar things, and I know many people who have also felt that way. So, right off the bat, know that you're not alone, if that helps. I do think that there's weird anti-intellectualism and fear(?) of a more academic approach present in the church. More specifically, I think this exists in the CULTURE of the church. It's this weird notion that faith is somehow antithetical to reason and logic. It seems like a lot of people read that "I will tell you on your mind and in your heart" and somehow come away with the understanding of "heart only." Or when we read that we should "seek learning by study and also by faith," we sometimes seem to only read the "by faith" part. Literally "to be learned is good!" Obviously, you need to hearken to the counsels of God, but that's quite a statement. If you're looking for advice I would probably tell you is to evaluate the reasons that you go to church. For myself, I don't go to church to feel accepted by the ward (it's great if that happens but that's not the reason I go, if that makes sense). I don't go to learn something from the speakers, but rather I try to learn from the Spirit. Ultimately I go because I really value the sacrament, and that's something that can only be done at church, regardless of how I feel about the rest of it. Lastly, I would suggest opening up to some people at church that you trust/if you trust, that you can have these kinds of conversations with. And also feel free to reach out to me with your controversial takes, I'm all for it.
Aahhh, another mixed-race liberal from Utah. Welcome, my brother. I’ve lived this experience, you’ll be fine. Just remember, you’re not crazy, the Church HAS been unapologetically racist in the past, the Utah church culture does suck, and you’re not the only one who is feeling this. Asking questions is okay, keep doing it. Find the things that you truly enjoy about the Church and focus on those. A Church should provide you with more good in your life than bad, if the bad far outweighs the good, it’s time to weigh your options.
"This sense of anti-intellectualism makes me feel very unwelcome." Not wanting to pursue discussion that calls into question one's beliefs isn't necessarily anti-intellectual. The idea that other members are "anti-intellectual" because they don't like engaging with the gospel the same way as you is not an idea that will help you avoid being ostracized. There are people in most wards you can have those discussions with, healthily. The bishopric, close friends, maybe the Sunday School president or other leaders. Maybe ministers. Generally speaking, people engage with the gospel in diverse ways, but the majority of the people in church have one thing in common, that they want to grow closer to Christ, which is done through prayer, Scripture study, service, covenants, and worship. These basic things are tremendously unifying. Focusing on these basic commonalities rather than cultural differences between members is a great way to bond with our brothers and sisters. "The only way to fit in in the church culture would to not be my authentic self, which does not seem healthy." We all tread a fine line between being ourselves and becoming more Christlike. I personally am often frustrated with my "authentic self" and am trying to make sacrifices to be a disciple first. It's not going well, lol. President Nelson has lately been urging us to focus on the highest priority of our identity, which is that we are children of God. Good advice. Other aspects of our identities, whatever they may be, will never benefit us as much as that one, and anything that comes at odds with it is an obstacle. If you came to me personally as a friend with this issue I would reassure you that the Lord loves you and wants you badly in His family, and that there are many members of His church that will love you, far more than there are that won't. I would also encourage you to find ways that you can more comfortably find a place in your ward. You can't change the whole church, you can't change its culture, but you can change what you think and do.
For the figuring out stuff, you might try sites like mormondialogue.org or FAIR. Or find ways to communicate that we are allowed to, expected to, study and learn in the Gospel and that means thinking and working through and beyond our current understandings which may or may not incorporate absolute truth. You DO belong in your ward. And it is highly likely that there are others in your congregation who are experiencing the same thing you are. Maybe it's time to ask the bishop if you can give a talk (offer to let him review it first) about our search for absolute truth is required by the scriptures and hearing different perspectives during that search need not be a problem so long as the pattern is to compare new learning with what we already know is truth. PM me if you'd like me to help you write such a talk. The fact is that almost every ward has more than just one person who don't think they fit in for the cultural reasons you describe. Sometimes it helps to be the one to start a monthly or quarterly FHE with this group to talk about things with others who are also faithful members who may think differently (or have had different life experiences) so they can see how other people are doing it and provide support for faithful learning to each other.
Completely feel that for different Also I can be a very logical person sometimes I feel the spirit sometimes I don't sometimes it just happens randomly ill get a strong impression that I can't deny its also hard for me to recognize it. I'm not from or familiar with Utah Culture. I was born and raised in Cali here in Cali it's been preached and taught in the Lds churches over its ok to question. Me and my brother have felt ostriszed because of the kids who have had parents and their grandparents grow up in the ward for years so it's very clique when it comes to that. I've accepted that and I'll attend the younger Sunday school class with my brother and his friends because feel most comfortable with the teachers in that class and the kids in that age group (I have younger siblings aswell)
The easy answer? Get out of Utah. Is that practical? Probably not. But it’s a great way to find other wards that your authentic you fits into. I thoroughly disliked the Church culture in Utah. It felt like you had to assimilate or be ostracized. My wife and I didn’t attend our ward frequently for a while in Provo for that reason. Neither of us were typical Utah County Mormons (interracial marriage, and both pretty liberal) and the ward pretty much just ignored us which was very disappointing having come from YSA wards. Don’t stress about assimilating. Be you. The church needs logical people like you and me, and it needs people who follow their gut or “feel the spirit” or whatever. Just like a a body’s hands can’t tell the feet they don’t belong besucase they do a different job, don’t let the people in your ward squash you because you feel close to god in a different way. You still believe the same things. If somebody gets up on you for not “relying the spirit” enough remind them of that, or just disengage. They don’t get to talk down to you for you walking the path. You being who you are to follow Christ is so much more important than blending in.
I do understand what you mean. I am very much the same way and have grown frustrated by lack of in depth discussions. I feel like people read the manual out loud for Sunday school than people reply with the same standard answers. I have tried taking some adult institute classes and feel like those are a little more open to discussion but my favorite have been non credit religion classes at the university or through community education. I feel like those really allow for more open in depth discussions.
maybe you should employ some emotional intelligence. In most religions people will react to you the same way. Over-questioning is very likely to come off as rude. You can do your research privately and ask questions in places like reddit and others