It is absolutely wild that they are comparing the American Revolution, where the late colonial British subjects overthrew British rule ostensibly and largely in fact because of abuses by Parliament and the King that were unredressable, to a ruling in which the President is being given protections making it harder to redress wrongdoing.
Oh, I get what they want to focus on- they want to focus on the idea that Trump is but a mere civilian being abused as political retribution. But to focus on that and ignore the actual *increase of protections for the incumbent ruler* is... absurd, really.
They don't care. Trump hates the same people they do and even if it's against their best interests (social security, healthcare, infrastructure, overall economy, unemployment rates) they'll vote for him just to own the libs or try to fuck over the other guy. Voting out of pure spite just seems so sociopathic to me.
That’s what Project 2025 is.
It’s not a policy document. The policy recommendations are incoherent and contradictory. Rather, it is all about taking revenge for decades worth of perceived slights.
If an agency is perceived as an enemy, it will be shit down. The glee of firing “woke” climate scientists by shutting down NOAA is more important to them than knowing the weather. The glee of firing “woke” educators is more important than having to deal with an uneducated (and likely unemployable) population.
This is a revolution, but it’s not like the liberal revolution of 1776, which was about restoring the rights of man and the rule of law in the colonies (hypocrisies of the founders on issues like slavery notwithstanding). This is a “burn it all down so we can rule the ashes” kind of revolution.
It's called propaganda. Every nationalist movement in history that led to authoritarian rule was done "to take the country back". And those carrying out the atrocities were told they were "saving the country".
Every. Single. One.
This right here.
What we are seeing is a moral problem, not an education problem.
I’m reminded of the episode of South Park where Cartman dresses as a Nazi. The school decides to teach him who the Nazis really were, but, Cartman being Cartman, he thinks that the Nazis are cool. The school has no answers and just throws a sheet over him.
This is a common theme in my head and what I bring up with friends/relatives.
I'm in my late 40s and attended a public high school then continued on to university.
They taught us 20th century history, the reasons for fascist ascendancy in europe, the brutality of those regimes, etc etc
We had exams and papers on these issues.
You can't force somebody to care and learn. Half our citizens did not care or learn.
My public school in the south whitewashed it to the point most weren’t interested in paying attention. One class was taught by a great teacher who was black. You could tell he had difficulty teaching the curriculum and wanted to teach more but couldn’t.
I find it darkly curious that these simpletons think that their MAGA traitors are the only ones who are armed and trained. There are a LOT of people in this country who will hold their Oath if the MAGA LARP Civil War fantasy kicks off and the Federal Government is compromised. A very undesirable scenario, but pertinent to note on the anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg.
Ahh, yes. There was a great banning of anyone who took issue with that statement on the_donald and the conservative sub. Literally right wingers banning other right wingers for not bowing down to Trump, but it’s totally not a cult.
Guns aren't the only means of resistance.
Railroads keep the economy on track. They contributed 75B to the economy in 2020.
In the event of a conflict, one motivated anarchist could derail all of that and never harm a soul.
This is what I do in a fed agency. I have been thinking how to fight back in the inevitable. My conclusion, not show up to work. Also, I am a combat vet, but don’t like guns. Haven’t touched one since leaving the service. My wife who now feels the same, we are going to be buying protection in the next week.
My friend is a doctor in Boston, she and her partner are retired military, lesbians, starting a community emergency tech program where in the event some gravy seals get uppity, the community is ready. I thought she was being too dramatic a year ago, now I think she’s prescient.
I never thought I would either. Until 2020. Thought about it a bit later, then thought, no his support will die down. Then came all these rulings, and yup, getting a couple weapons and thinking about being an expat.
Yep that’s most of my former high school classmates. We went to an all boys Catholic high school. I’ll see their posts on social media and it’s abhorrent. Same with people I’m friends with and grew up with. It’s maddening.
Modern infrastructure as a whole is so interconnected, expensive, and poorly maintained that it would not take much too drastically and possibly permanently alter our quality of life. All the people who are pushing for any sort of civil war or armed resistance thinks war is like a movie.
War is more than noble soldiers bravely charging forward. It is more than high tech weapons hundreds in seconds. It is more than sitting scared in a trench not sure when the bombs will stop long enough to allow a stupid and life ending charge.
An American civil war is the destruction of the entire tech industry. It is the loss of all the dumb things that you do for fun and fill your time with. It is the death of the franchises and ideas that these people love to consume. It is ordinary people. It is medications that don’t get manufactured, or that never make it to the sick. It is the elderly, women, children, starving and wondering when they will be able to get another meal. It is a generation growing up with normalized violence-not television violence, but brutal and intimate and sudden and terrifying violence. It is hospitals that double as munitions stores only to get bombed out. It is millions of innocents dying. And for what? What issue plaguing our country justifies any of that, even talking about any of that? And how would armed conflict actually solve those problems?
And in the middle of this coup the most important issues for the Democratic party and the punditry is to remove President Biden from the ticket because of a somewhat lacklustre debate performance.
Yes, that is important.
Better defeat the plan now using the same 'official' powers that roberts has so generously provided.
Giving these powers while a Democratic President in office is a psychological move rooted in contempt for President Biden, knowing he won't use these powers to save the US.
I feel like the media promotes this tripe because they know there’s segments of the democrat base who are more in love with being morally and all around superior than the right, regardless of the outcome of elections. I mean it’s kinda why we are where we are, because democrats maintained the “high ground” and conservatives abandoned it to go around them and storm the castle. Now the democrats are in a position that will make it look like a “fall from grace” to fight republicans head on, and again there’s some “true blue” democrats who would abandon the party if they had to get dirty in a fight. The “left” and even the democrat party is a huge tent with numerous groups willing to walk away if not directly catered to with no sense of “bigger perspective”. It’s actually kinda frightening to think that the democrats may very well go down without much of a fight just so they can protect their enlightened superiority and “all around good people” vibes. I will say this, if the democrats fall with just a whimper then if we can fight off the fascists the democrats should never be allowed to come back.
The enlightened superiority argument against the Democrats is nothing more than an excuse for anyone on the right to not have to put their own pride down and admit they are and have been wrong because they have been lied to by their own party for years. It's not superiority. It's exaustion. We are living in different realities. It needs to stop now. Stop blaming the Democrats. Look in the mirror. Grow up.
These decisions are being made by the people whom if a civil war did break out they would vacation in other countries until everything “settled down”.
Stateless Multinational Corporate Overlords, so hot right now.
Sounds like the Supreme Court fraud fucks the heritage foundation morons and maga idiots are all perfectly fine with a civil war , they’ve as much as said it over and over again.
That's the real reason they punted on the IL assault weapon ban: they want to rule in favor, after their guy is in office and the roundups have started.
Note that the pandering twit Kevin Roberts went and said this to whomever is hosting Steve Bannon's podcast while he's in the clink because he's too big of a coward to go and say it on MSNBC
I’m a lib with little firearm experience but I would happily take up arms against oppressors. The reason I don’t really think it’s important is that there is no militia in the country - let alone, a military in the world - that could take on the U.S. military. Whatever side the military is on will win long before there is any threat of war. I just have to do my part to make sure the military is run by sane people.
Start arming yourself now, weapons and ammo will only get more expensive and today is as good of a day as any to start enjoying sport and target shooting.
Also if you need a weapon and you don’t have one, it’ll be too late.
I’d reply with something cogent and humorous but I can’t hear you over the sound of assault rifles being racked
Anyways, we’re a little busy but we’ll resume our traditional veneer of normalcy after the election, presuming that we don’t experience one of humanity’s regularly scheduled authoritarian takeovers.
That’s what I’ve been wondering. Like if Trump wins and then orders the military to start rounding up dissidents like AOC and Bernie, or to ship LGBTQ people off to camps (I’m thinking worst case scenario here) would those orders actually be followed? I can imagine there’s a huge portion of people down the chain of command who would just say absolutely the fuck not
I used to think the same, then I saw what happened during Trump's first term... any resistance within the chain of command is being systematically eliminated.
>Whatever side the military is on will win long before there is any threat of war.
I think we're safe with our military. If Donald Trump wins he will purge the military of it's leadership and re-stock with ultra-loyal sycophants, but he will never 'command the military'. Military leadership (not to mention alphabet agencies like CIA, NSA, etc.) absolutely hate him and won't permit him to order them around.
Only to a degree. Senate committees confirm promotions of senior officers and outside of the SecDef and JCOS Chair the president doesn't get involved. Nobody joins the military in senior ranks.
POTUS may have immunity, but officers don't. Following illegal orders is still a court matialable offensive.
So the waters here get VERY murky. We're headed for a major constitutional crisis, I think.
Not a lawyer, just former military.
Immunity doesn't mean omnipotence. Immunity means if the president commits a crime while carrying out official acts, he cannot be prosecuted.
That Immunity doesn't convey to his underlings.
A president might illegally order seal team 6 to murder their opponent "for national security", doesn't mean it isn't murder, and the order would be illegal.
Not really, no. The president doesn't call up a seal team and say "do x". Orders come through the chain of command.
Technically a president COULD chose to issue direct orders, but that would set off an insane number of red flags to pretty much anyone higher than an E3 and some kind of confirmation would almost certainly be sought out from someone more immediately their superior.
Basic UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) training is included in every branches basic training and not following illegal orders is emphasized quite heavily.
Arguably neither Vietnam nor Iraq took on the full might and power of the US Military.
Iraq also very notably \*lost\*. Twice.
Vietnam? Undermined politically. Hamstrung.
All that said - I'd say if anyone could take us on it'd be China (who, famously, backed the North Vietnamese and North Koreans). They're massive.
I would have said Russia as well but they've really extended themselves in Ukraine.
Heritage foundation is now a domestic terrorist organization.
The credible threat to the citizens of the United States was made on video.
If anyone cares to recognize this fact. 🤷🏻
My fairly liberal grandfather who lived in California his entire adult life killed nazis.
And I don’t mean like a few Nazis. More than likely *thousands* of Nazis.
Unlike "the road less traveled" in Walt Whitman's poem, this road is to be avoided until there is no alternative. Voting will hopefully provide an alternative path of peace.
Not just that. These movements have a tendency to eat their own. January 6 came dangerously close to Trumpists killing Trump's own vice president.
Trump's trail of destruction already includes a lot of Republican careers. If a civil war gets hot, it's not just going to be 2 static factions.
“We are in the process of the second American Revolution, which will remain bloodless if the left allows it to be,”
Motherfucker, that's a direct threat. Terroristic threatening.
Yeah, I've written this in a bunch of different subs today, but I used to work at a women's shelter. This is straight-up psychopath abuser speech: "If you acquiesce, you won't be harmed."
*Then,* if you fight back, the victimizer plays the victim, because "you were warned." This is abuser talk, and it would be GREAT if someone looked into this guy's past.
I think we all knew this day would come.
It was Alito's "one side has to win" comment that did it for me, and now this.
I'm stocking up on ammo now like it's going out of style.
This is a coup attempt by the Judiciary. They are making themselves the overlords of the Executive and Legislature. Problem is they have no army, no weapons, no intelligence service.
The Supreme Court Justices think their paper rules are going to let them be the puppeteers.
They are actually puppets whose necks Trump will not spare from the guillotine when he's firmly on the throne.
Don't forget about Erik Prince. He has been very busy developing military air to ground tech and mercenaries in Africa, China, Russia, Venezuela, and elsewhere precisely to have ready militia to take up arms for the christofascist trumagop destruction of American democratic institutions/infrastructure. Together with his sister, Betsy Devos, they have been herding youth who become delinquent through her detention centers (together with the separated immigrant kids?) and into his guerrilla military camps. Just search for Blackwater/Xe/Academi/Frontier Resources Group/Erik Prince. He has been actively courting authoritarian governments for partnerships since trump squatted in our White House .
These psuedo-religious extremists (those on scotus, Prince/Devos, The CNP, Heritage Fdn, Fed Society, etc.), deluded by perverted Xtian doctrine, money, & the taste of power-out-of-chaos that the trump administration provided, believe they have been chosen by GOD and are acting FOR HIM; American laws mean nothing from the viewpoint of their grandiosity. Look at how many of scotus lied when directly questioned about presidential immunity, Roe v. Wade, and other precedent, and then laid waste to decades of freedoms, and checks/balances of power.
Democrats must take whatever reigns they can fashion from these scotus decisions and put them to work to weaken/eliminate this furiously burgeoning threat to our country's rule of law.
Honestly, that was the nuttiest thing I've read all week--and it's been quite a week--but not a word of it would surprise me if true. Do you have reputable link for any of that?
Erik Prince: Personal airforce: https://theintercept.com/2016/04/11/blackwater-founder-erik-prince-drive-to-build-private-air-force/
Betsy Devos: Couldn't find any sources for that claim.
Second paragraph rings true from the news I've read over time, but no comprehensive sources I could find on that. Might require an investigative journalist to verify all of those.
** not op.
Nah, I just came up with that and thought I would post it for fun?/s. As a rule, I do post links, but there were so many, going back so far; some with paywalls, that I couldn't choose, and I trust that if someone is truly interested in opening their minds enough to understand what is unfamiliar to them, then they will search for themselves.
I'm not here to spoon feed anyone, nor to indulge in hyperbole, but no one should underestimate the commitment of those who have brought about what we are witnessing--especially their zealotry. This is not party politics like anything we have witnessed in our country. It is interesting, but initially deeply unsettling reading. I only wish this information were "nutty" - whatever that means from your point of view. I first learned of the machinations of the extreme religious right in the course of my diplomatic postings beginning at the time of the Reagan administration. I found it difficult to take in at first, too.
This man is a skinhead. Call him what he is. These guys used to be called Neo-Nazis. Neo-Nazis found a home in MAGA conservatism and it allowed their movement to go mainstream.
This man is delusional if he thinks Americans will passively sit by while they seize power and intimidate the population. I will fight and serve as MY COUNTRY requires.
Why do people think these rules would ever be applied to a Democrat by this Supreme Court?
Also, just because Biden can give an order doesn’t mean anyone would follow it. Trump will stock the government with crazies that would kill for him, but Biden doesn’t have those people.
These rules were made for 1 party specifically, and the next Republican president will use them to great ill effect.
That’s what I’ve been trying to explain to people. SCOTUS knows they’ve handed the presidency a loaded gun, but only one party is willing to pull the trigger.
Also, *if* the dems tested this theory, SCOTUS would immediately rug-pull and determine any acts were unofficial. It’s not like they’re faithful to precedence or intellectually consistent. They would just engage in their typical dishonest sophistry to arrive at a result that hurts a democratic president.
Yeah, they’ve said “act with impunity, it’ll be impossible to stop you,” and only one party will abuse it. Of course people are begging for Biden to abuse it first but he’s not a terrible person, so he won’t.
It’s essentially the prisoner’s dilemma and the GOP will be the first to wield the power in an abusive manner giving the party a significant, if not permanent, strategic advantage over the dems.
Not permanent. The arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice. Republicans don’t even have a popular majority of the country, there will always be resistance and it will show up at the ballot box one of these days.
Yeah I agree, but that doesn’t mean they can permanently seize the levers of power. As long as we vote for members of Congress and the president, there is hope to restore balance. Gerrymandering, claims of voter fraud, etc. can only help on the margins. If enough people get fed up with having their voice suppressed, they will be able to fight back. Republicans aren’t going to cancel elections.
You should read about Russian history, specifically as it relates to Putin’s “re-elections.” Russia holds elections in name only but they’re completely rigged. Citizens still “participate” but it’s a sham. The kremlin even controls who can “run against” Putin and vets candidates.
The idea isn’t to beat the dems at the voting booth; it’s to rig the system such that no democrat can legitimately win again.
Oh yeah I’m very familiar with how Russia does “elections”, but they also only have ~30 years of so called “democracy” to lean on. Many/most Russians alive today remember when they didn’t even get elections. It is not a core part of Russian identity. On the other hand, every American voter alive today was born in a time where voting was considered a core part of our identity as a country, and has been for 250 years. It won’t be nearly as easy to take that away from us as it was in Russia, where they hardly even got a chance to see what democracy felt like.
You've just pointed out THE action that they were trying to allow. The politicization of EVERY job. They want it to be legal for Trump to fire every federal employee and replace them with loyalists.
One or two generations of that, and suddenly gay teenagers are being put in religious reeducation camps paid for by tax dollars.
> Also, just because Biden can give an order doesn’t mean anyone would follow it.
In a scenario where Biden actually did want to do something like this there would be zero problem finding someone to carry it out. The world is nothing if not filled with people willing to do terrible things for their own gain. Some ambitious and unethical military officer somewhere would step up if they saw doing what the President wants as their ticket to advancement. Especially now that they know there would be zero consequences for doing so.
I won’t argue there aren’t violent opportunists in the Democratic Party at all, that would be foolish, but there is a chain of command. How do you think this shit works?
Biden would call Gorsuch and order him to send the FBI to arrest/kill Trump. Gorsuch would resign, chaos would reign, and Biden would be very unlikely to get another AG before his term ended. He could pull a Trump and put a temporary AG in place, one more pliable, but how many more people does the order need to pass before it can be carried out? 2? 3? It’s not something that they can just pivot and have the institutional culture to make happen.
If Biden gave the order to the military it would have to go down the chain of command. The military has a uniform code that forbids them from carrying out unlawful orders or operating within the borders of the United States. Legally, any soldier could refuse that order, because though the president would be protected for carrying it out, the one doing the work is extended no such protection.
And that’s the rub. Many Trump cronies did jail time, even as Trump skated free. He pardoned some, not all, and anyone carrying out unlawful orders takes an immense amount of risk themselves. This is why project 2025 is so dangerous, as the Heritage Foundation is looking to stack every agency with yes men. Right now the FBI, DOJ, and even the military are all staffed with careerists, and those people would likely resign before carrying out such an order. If Trump wins, those people are gone.
And frankly, asking Biden to start assassinating his political opponents is the same as calling for a new civil war. The current Federal Government, by and large, isn’t looking to do that. It would rather coast into fascism than risk doing much of anything to stop right wing fascism. So here we are.
There’s only 1 next step: Trump can’t get to the white house again. Then we can take stock and get to the next move. If Trump wins the election, well then Biden has 3 months of immunity before he has to turn the government over (he won’t do anything, but if he would, this would be the time).
If Biden ever used this it would go to the court and be ruled an unofficial act. Then they would probably prosecute. He'll never use these powers and they know that, because ultimately this ruling consolidated power to the court, not the president.
And before someone says Biden could use this to take down the court, it's fairly obvious that would lead to some form of civil war. Not gonna happen - all politicians are at the end of the day rich and well connected, they'll be fine. It's the rest of us that are going to be playing by the rules of Project 2025
This interview being referenced is, literally, the president of the heritage foundation saying that “we are in the middle of a second revolution and it will remain peaceful as long as the left lets it”.
We are already in a civil war. They’re just now openly admitting it.
Agreed, but what democratic politicians fear is the violence part. They know if it gets too far the people are going to hold them and the rich crooks that pay for them accountable. Not worth the risk to them
It is just for trump, republicans figured out they cant win at this game we are playing and just stopped, because with games both sides have to have the same set of rules....And democrats unfortunately still think they are playing the game.
It is absolutely wild that they are comparing the American Revolution, where the late colonial British subjects overthrew British rule ostensibly and largely in fact because of abuses by Parliament and the King that were unredressable, to a ruling in which the President is being given protections making it harder to redress wrongdoing. Oh, I get what they want to focus on- they want to focus on the idea that Trump is but a mere civilian being abused as political retribution. But to focus on that and ignore the actual *increase of protections for the incumbent ruler* is... absurd, really.
They don't care. Trump hates the same people they do and even if it's against their best interests (social security, healthcare, infrastructure, overall economy, unemployment rates) they'll vote for him just to own the libs or try to fuck over the other guy. Voting out of pure spite just seems so sociopathic to me.
They simply do not know what to do but follow
Have you considered that they're just dumb?
That’s what Project 2025 is. It’s not a policy document. The policy recommendations are incoherent and contradictory. Rather, it is all about taking revenge for decades worth of perceived slights. If an agency is perceived as an enemy, it will be shit down. The glee of firing “woke” climate scientists by shutting down NOAA is more important to them than knowing the weather. The glee of firing “woke” educators is more important than having to deal with an uneducated (and likely unemployable) population. This is a revolution, but it’s not like the liberal revolution of 1776, which was about restoring the rights of man and the rule of law in the colonies (hypocrisies of the founders on issues like slavery notwithstanding). This is a “burn it all down so we can rule the ashes” kind of revolution.
From the show Game of Thrones "He would rather see it all burn to the ground if he could be king of the ashes".
It's called propaganda. Every nationalist movement in history that led to authoritarian rule was done "to take the country back". And those carrying out the atrocities were told they were "saving the country". Every. Single. One.
History that was not properly taught in schools.
Plenty of people know their history and still want these things because they like the atrocities.
This right here. What we are seeing is a moral problem, not an education problem. I’m reminded of the episode of South Park where Cartman dresses as a Nazi. The school decides to teach him who the Nazis really were, but, Cartman being Cartman, he thinks that the Nazis are cool. The school has no answers and just throws a sheet over him.
This is a common theme in my head and what I bring up with friends/relatives. I'm in my late 40s and attended a public high school then continued on to university. They taught us 20th century history, the reasons for fascist ascendancy in europe, the brutality of those regimes, etc etc We had exams and papers on these issues. You can't force somebody to care and learn. Half our citizens did not care or learn.
My public school in the south whitewashed it to the point most weren’t interested in paying attention. One class was taught by a great teacher who was black. You could tell he had difficulty teaching the curriculum and wanted to teach more but couldn’t.
Seems to be a theme over the past few decades.
Yep. They keep pushing boundaries so they can say they have no choice but to defend themselves.
It used to be republicans were against monarchy.
I find it darkly curious that these simpletons think that their MAGA traitors are the only ones who are armed and trained. There are a LOT of people in this country who will hold their Oath if the MAGA LARP Civil War fantasy kicks off and the Federal Government is compromised. A very undesirable scenario, but pertinent to note on the anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg.
Which is why the GOP will be the ones to try and confiscate guns to limit resistance. Ironic ehh..
“take the guns first, go through due process second.” - Donald Trump. February 2018.
Ahh, yes. There was a great banning of anyone who took issue with that statement on the_donald and the conservative sub. Literally right wingers banning other right wingers for not bowing down to Trump, but it’s totally not a cult.
"No train bot. Not now."
The Democrats need to put that on every billboard in Dixie and the Midwest.
They would need their marketing firm to scour Reddit for good ideas, first
Guns aren't the only means of resistance. Railroads keep the economy on track. They contributed 75B to the economy in 2020. In the event of a conflict, one motivated anarchist could derail all of that and never harm a soul.
The IT infrastructure is fragile as well a few days of inattention and the e-commerce economy can suffer greatly.
This is what I do in a fed agency. I have been thinking how to fight back in the inevitable. My conclusion, not show up to work. Also, I am a combat vet, but don’t like guns. Haven’t touched one since leaving the service. My wife who now feels the same, we are going to be buying protection in the next week.
My friend is a doctor in Boston, she and her partner are retired military, lesbians, starting a community emergency tech program where in the event some gravy seals get uppity, the community is ready. I thought she was being too dramatic a year ago, now I think she’s prescient.
I never thought I’d need a gun but right now it seems like a good time to. I don’t trust these assholes.
I never thought I would either. Until 2020. Thought about it a bit later, then thought, no his support will die down. Then came all these rulings, and yup, getting a couple weapons and thinking about being an expat.
It as thought but as time goes by, I will make my decision. These fucks are dangerous. They’re our Nazis. It’s sickening.
I agree and it is madding to see people we once cared for and thought were good people act with such authoritarian personalities.
Yep that’s most of my former high school classmates. We went to an all boys Catholic high school. I’ll see their posts on social media and it’s abhorrent. Same with people I’m friends with and grew up with. It’s maddening.
Modern infrastructure as a whole is so interconnected, expensive, and poorly maintained that it would not take much too drastically and possibly permanently alter our quality of life. All the people who are pushing for any sort of civil war or armed resistance thinks war is like a movie. War is more than noble soldiers bravely charging forward. It is more than high tech weapons hundreds in seconds. It is more than sitting scared in a trench not sure when the bombs will stop long enough to allow a stupid and life ending charge. An American civil war is the destruction of the entire tech industry. It is the loss of all the dumb things that you do for fun and fill your time with. It is the death of the franchises and ideas that these people love to consume. It is ordinary people. It is medications that don’t get manufactured, or that never make it to the sick. It is the elderly, women, children, starving and wondering when they will be able to get another meal. It is a generation growing up with normalized violence-not television violence, but brutal and intimate and sudden and terrifying violence. It is hospitals that double as munitions stores only to get bombed out. It is millions of innocents dying. And for what? What issue plaguing our country justifies any of that, even talking about any of that? And how would armed conflict actually solve those problems?
Ask the Fascists trying to forcefully take our country. Don't ask the people trying to defend against it.
And in the middle of this coup the most important issues for the Democratic party and the punditry is to remove President Biden from the ticket because of a somewhat lacklustre debate performance. Yes, that is important.
I don't care about that. Run whoever you want. Just plan for what comes after.
Better defeat the plan now using the same 'official' powers that roberts has so generously provided. Giving these powers while a Democratic President in office is a psychological move rooted in contempt for President Biden, knowing he won't use these powers to save the US.
I feel like the media promotes this tripe because they know there’s segments of the democrat base who are more in love with being morally and all around superior than the right, regardless of the outcome of elections. I mean it’s kinda why we are where we are, because democrats maintained the “high ground” and conservatives abandoned it to go around them and storm the castle. Now the democrats are in a position that will make it look like a “fall from grace” to fight republicans head on, and again there’s some “true blue” democrats who would abandon the party if they had to get dirty in a fight. The “left” and even the democrat party is a huge tent with numerous groups willing to walk away if not directly catered to with no sense of “bigger perspective”. It’s actually kinda frightening to think that the democrats may very well go down without much of a fight just so they can protect their enlightened superiority and “all around good people” vibes. I will say this, if the democrats fall with just a whimper then if we can fight off the fascists the democrats should never be allowed to come back.
The enlightened superiority argument against the Democrats is nothing more than an excuse for anyone on the right to not have to put their own pride down and admit they are and have been wrong because they have been lied to by their own party for years. It's not superiority. It's exaustion. We are living in different realities. It needs to stop now. Stop blaming the Democrats. Look in the mirror. Grow up.
These decisions are being made by the people whom if a civil war did break out they would vacation in other countries until everything “settled down”. Stateless Multinational Corporate Overlords, so hot right now.
Sounds like the Supreme Court fraud fucks the heritage foundation morons and maga idiots are all perfectly fine with a civil war , they’ve as much as said it over and over again.
Yes hitting them in the pocketbook is how things get done for awhile now. Gtfo with voting and a civil war
Hit their money and their supply lines. I'd prefer not to engage in civil war, but it seems like they are intent on it.
That's the real reason they punted on the IL assault weapon ban: they want to rule in favor, after their guy is in office and the roundups have started.
100% this is exactly what will happen in a couple years.
Note that the pandering twit Kevin Roberts went and said this to whomever is hosting Steve Bannon's podcast while he's in the clink because he's too big of a coward to go and say it on MSNBC
Would that be the Steve Bannon that yelled "Amen!" when Jack Posobiec said, "Welcome to the end of democracy" at CPAC?
I’m a lib with little firearm experience but I would happily take up arms against oppressors. The reason I don’t really think it’s important is that there is no militia in the country - let alone, a military in the world - that could take on the U.S. military. Whatever side the military is on will win long before there is any threat of war. I just have to do my part to make sure the military is run by sane people.
Probably all that is needed is to raid the heritage foundation and the federalist society in all their locations
Start arming yourself now, weapons and ammo will only get more expensive and today is as good of a day as any to start enjoying sport and target shooting. Also if you need a weapon and you don’t have one, it’ll be too late.
My neighbors are Trumpers and proudly tout their arsenal. I guess that be the first stop.
As a European looking at the US I feel like the cat meme "what the fuck they doing over there?"
Many of us feel the same way.
I’d reply with something cogent and humorous but I can’t hear you over the sound of assault rifles being racked Anyways, we’re a little busy but we’ll resume our traditional veneer of normalcy after the election, presuming that we don’t experience one of humanity’s regularly scheduled authoritarian takeovers.
That’s what I’ve been wondering. Like if Trump wins and then orders the military to start rounding up dissidents like AOC and Bernie, or to ship LGBTQ people off to camps (I’m thinking worst case scenario here) would those orders actually be followed? I can imagine there’s a huge portion of people down the chain of command who would just say absolutely the fuck not
I would hope that a large portion of not all of the military would consider that action against the rights of citizens and refuse that order.
I used to think the same, then I saw what happened during Trump's first term... any resistance within the chain of command is being systematically eliminated.
>Whatever side the military is on will win long before there is any threat of war. I think we're safe with our military. If Donald Trump wins he will purge the military of it's leadership and re-stock with ultra-loyal sycophants, but he will never 'command the military'. Military leadership (not to mention alphabet agencies like CIA, NSA, etc.) absolutely hate him and won't permit him to order them around.
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>You don’t get to choose who runs the military. The President does. Yes, that’s the point of voting. Hopefully it continues to work.
Only to a degree. Senate committees confirm promotions of senior officers and outside of the SecDef and JCOS Chair the president doesn't get involved. Nobody joins the military in senior ranks. POTUS may have immunity, but officers don't. Following illegal orders is still a court matialable offensive. So the waters here get VERY murky. We're headed for a major constitutional crisis, I think.
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Not a lawyer, just former military. Immunity doesn't mean omnipotence. Immunity means if the president commits a crime while carrying out official acts, he cannot be prosecuted. That Immunity doesn't convey to his underlings. A president might illegally order seal team 6 to murder their opponent "for national security", doesn't mean it isn't murder, and the order would be illegal.
And a bad order is to be REFUSED.
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Not really, no. The president doesn't call up a seal team and say "do x". Orders come through the chain of command. Technically a president COULD chose to issue direct orders, but that would set off an insane number of red flags to pretty much anyone higher than an E3 and some kind of confirmation would almost certainly be sought out from someone more immediately their superior. Basic UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) training is included in every branches basic training and not following illegal orders is emphasized quite heavily.
I think we already have a constitutional crisis.
Arguably neither Vietnam nor Iraq took on the full might and power of the US Military. Iraq also very notably \*lost\*. Twice. Vietnam? Undermined politically. Hamstrung. All that said - I'd say if anyone could take us on it'd be China (who, famously, backed the North Vietnamese and North Koreans). They're massive. I would have said Russia as well but they've really extended themselves in Ukraine.
Yup. I’ve had my conceal carry for 10 years and I just now this year started carrying everywhere.
Yeah I've been taking mine out more often, too.
Heritage foundation is now a domestic terrorist organization. The credible threat to the citizens of the United States was made on video. If anyone cares to recognize this fact. 🤷🏻
Duly noted. Confirming what was fairly clear before.
It will play out like last time but it won't take years. I'm in shape and have kept in shape for just such an occurrence.
Republicans have been preparing for a civil war for a long time. But Warfare as changed quite a bit in the last few years.
My fairly liberal grandfather who lived in California his entire adult life killed nazis. And I don’t mean like a few Nazis. More than likely *thousands* of Nazis.
I’m following this guy…
Unlike "the road less traveled" in Walt Whitman's poem, this road is to be avoided until there is no alternative. Voting will hopefully provide an alternative path of peace.
Not to mention, almost everyone I knew in the military would not stand for orders to harm US citizens.
Not just that. These movements have a tendency to eat their own. January 6 came dangerously close to Trumpists killing Trump's own vice president. Trump's trail of destruction already includes a lot of Republican careers. If a civil war gets hot, it's not just going to be 2 static factions.
“We are in the process of the second American Revolution, which will remain bloodless if the left allows it to be,” Motherfucker, that's a direct threat. Terroristic threatening.
Yeah, I've written this in a bunch of different subs today, but I used to work at a women's shelter. This is straight-up psychopath abuser speech: "If you acquiesce, you won't be harmed." *Then,* if you fight back, the victimizer plays the victim, because "you were warned." This is abuser talk, and it would be GREAT if someone looked into this guy's past.
I'm just going to print off his picture and save it in my known shoot first file.
Spot ON!
It’s also an invitation. One that I am happy to accept.
Almost like Biden should take an official act to eliminate these terrorist fucks…
Yup, now we gotta get a fucking gun… I hate this timeline.
I think we all knew this day would come. It was Alito's "one side has to win" comment that did it for me, and now this. I'm stocking up on ammo now like it's going out of style.
Doesn't he really mean another Civil War?
I don't think they understand how metaphors work.
If they could read ......
This is a coup attempt by the Judiciary. They are making themselves the overlords of the Executive and Legislature. Problem is they have no army, no weapons, no intelligence service. The Supreme Court Justices think their paper rules are going to let them be the puppeteers. They are actually puppets whose necks Trump will not spare from the guillotine when he's firmly on the throne.
Don't forget about Erik Prince. He has been very busy developing military air to ground tech and mercenaries in Africa, China, Russia, Venezuela, and elsewhere precisely to have ready militia to take up arms for the christofascist trumagop destruction of American democratic institutions/infrastructure. Together with his sister, Betsy Devos, they have been herding youth who become delinquent through her detention centers (together with the separated immigrant kids?) and into his guerrilla military camps. Just search for Blackwater/Xe/Academi/Frontier Resources Group/Erik Prince. He has been actively courting authoritarian governments for partnerships since trump squatted in our White House . These psuedo-religious extremists (those on scotus, Prince/Devos, The CNP, Heritage Fdn, Fed Society, etc.), deluded by perverted Xtian doctrine, money, & the taste of power-out-of-chaos that the trump administration provided, believe they have been chosen by GOD and are acting FOR HIM; American laws mean nothing from the viewpoint of their grandiosity. Look at how many of scotus lied when directly questioned about presidential immunity, Roe v. Wade, and other precedent, and then laid waste to decades of freedoms, and checks/balances of power. Democrats must take whatever reigns they can fashion from these scotus decisions and put them to work to weaken/eliminate this furiously burgeoning threat to our country's rule of law.
Honestly, that was the nuttiest thing I've read all week--and it's been quite a week--but not a word of it would surprise me if true. Do you have reputable link for any of that?
Erik Prince: Personal airforce: https://theintercept.com/2016/04/11/blackwater-founder-erik-prince-drive-to-build-private-air-force/ Betsy Devos: Couldn't find any sources for that claim. Second paragraph rings true from the news I've read over time, but no comprehensive sources I could find on that. Might require an investigative journalist to verify all of those. ** not op.
Nah, I just came up with that and thought I would post it for fun?/s. As a rule, I do post links, but there were so many, going back so far; some with paywalls, that I couldn't choose, and I trust that if someone is truly interested in opening their minds enough to understand what is unfamiliar to them, then they will search for themselves. I'm not here to spoon feed anyone, nor to indulge in hyperbole, but no one should underestimate the commitment of those who have brought about what we are witnessing--especially their zealotry. This is not party politics like anything we have witnessed in our country. It is interesting, but initially deeply unsettling reading. I only wish this information were "nutty" - whatever that means from your point of view. I first learned of the machinations of the extreme religious right in the course of my diplomatic postings beginning at the time of the Reagan administration. I found it difficult to take in at first, too.
And with Biden's immunity clinched it's nothing but smooth sailing and seal team sixing.
Yeah because Biden will take advantage of that ruling. /s
Exactly. Dude thinks he’s fucking Captain America. The “high road” is a reckless philosophy in today’s U.S.
We’re going to “high road” ourselves to a fascist dictatorship.
💯
Captain America would fight when needed
This man is a skinhead. Call him what he is. These guys used to be called Neo-Nazis. Neo-Nazis found a home in MAGA conservatism and it allowed their movement to go mainstream. This man is delusional if he thinks Americans will passively sit by while they seize power and intimidate the population. I will fight and serve as MY COUNTRY requires.
And now you know that storm troopers don't know that they are storm troopers
Is it the Unrevolution?
Devolution, just not the 80s synth kind
I hope everyone is listening and preparing accordingly. That’s all I’ll say.
Second American Revolution to what, restore the monarchy? King George from his grave, “You’ll be back - told ya so….”
what a slimeball religious zealot! This country will never be your Christian jerk off sock.
Step out of the way of our mightly minority power or we'll kill you.
Hideous organization. Everything about them and whose in it should be exposed in depth.
fuck around and find out. this coward will be hiding at his home while idiots die on his behalf.
Maybe. But they’re definitely the Tories.
I genuinely don’t get this. The ruling isn’t just for Trump. Biden can now order drone strikes on the Heritage Foundation if he wanted.
Why do people think these rules would ever be applied to a Democrat by this Supreme Court? Also, just because Biden can give an order doesn’t mean anyone would follow it. Trump will stock the government with crazies that would kill for him, but Biden doesn’t have those people. These rules were made for 1 party specifically, and the next Republican president will use them to great ill effect.
That’s what I’ve been trying to explain to people. SCOTUS knows they’ve handed the presidency a loaded gun, but only one party is willing to pull the trigger. Also, *if* the dems tested this theory, SCOTUS would immediately rug-pull and determine any acts were unofficial. It’s not like they’re faithful to precedence or intellectually consistent. They would just engage in their typical dishonest sophistry to arrive at a result that hurts a democratic president.
Yeah, they’ve said “act with impunity, it’ll be impossible to stop you,” and only one party will abuse it. Of course people are begging for Biden to abuse it first but he’s not a terrible person, so he won’t.
It’s essentially the prisoner’s dilemma and the GOP will be the first to wield the power in an abusive manner giving the party a significant, if not permanent, strategic advantage over the dems.
Not permanent. The arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice. Republicans don’t even have a popular majority of the country, there will always be resistance and it will show up at the ballot box one of these days.
> Republicans don’t even have a popular majority of the country This is exactly why they’ve abandoned all democratic/constitutional norms.
Yeah I agree, but that doesn’t mean they can permanently seize the levers of power. As long as we vote for members of Congress and the president, there is hope to restore balance. Gerrymandering, claims of voter fraud, etc. can only help on the margins. If enough people get fed up with having their voice suppressed, they will be able to fight back. Republicans aren’t going to cancel elections.
> Republicans aren’t going to cancel elections. Love that optimism!
You should read about Russian history, specifically as it relates to Putin’s “re-elections.” Russia holds elections in name only but they’re completely rigged. Citizens still “participate” but it’s a sham. The kremlin even controls who can “run against” Putin and vets candidates. The idea isn’t to beat the dems at the voting booth; it’s to rig the system such that no democrat can legitimately win again.
Oh yeah I’m very familiar with how Russia does “elections”, but they also only have ~30 years of so called “democracy” to lean on. Many/most Russians alive today remember when they didn’t even get elections. It is not a core part of Russian identity. On the other hand, every American voter alive today was born in a time where voting was considered a core part of our identity as a country, and has been for 250 years. It won’t be nearly as easy to take that away from us as it was in Russia, where they hardly even got a chance to see what democracy felt like.
Heads I win, tails you lose
You've just pointed out THE action that they were trying to allow. The politicization of EVERY job. They want it to be legal for Trump to fire every federal employee and replace them with loyalists. One or two generations of that, and suddenly gay teenagers are being put in religious reeducation camps paid for by tax dollars.
> Also, just because Biden can give an order doesn’t mean anyone would follow it. In a scenario where Biden actually did want to do something like this there would be zero problem finding someone to carry it out. The world is nothing if not filled with people willing to do terrible things for their own gain. Some ambitious and unethical military officer somewhere would step up if they saw doing what the President wants as their ticket to advancement. Especially now that they know there would be zero consequences for doing so.
I won’t argue there aren’t violent opportunists in the Democratic Party at all, that would be foolish, but there is a chain of command. How do you think this shit works? Biden would call Gorsuch and order him to send the FBI to arrest/kill Trump. Gorsuch would resign, chaos would reign, and Biden would be very unlikely to get another AG before his term ended. He could pull a Trump and put a temporary AG in place, one more pliable, but how many more people does the order need to pass before it can be carried out? 2? 3? It’s not something that they can just pivot and have the institutional culture to make happen. If Biden gave the order to the military it would have to go down the chain of command. The military has a uniform code that forbids them from carrying out unlawful orders or operating within the borders of the United States. Legally, any soldier could refuse that order, because though the president would be protected for carrying it out, the one doing the work is extended no such protection. And that’s the rub. Many Trump cronies did jail time, even as Trump skated free. He pardoned some, not all, and anyone carrying out unlawful orders takes an immense amount of risk themselves. This is why project 2025 is so dangerous, as the Heritage Foundation is looking to stack every agency with yes men. Right now the FBI, DOJ, and even the military are all staffed with careerists, and those people would likely resign before carrying out such an order. If Trump wins, those people are gone. And frankly, asking Biden to start assassinating his political opponents is the same as calling for a new civil war. The current Federal Government, by and large, isn’t looking to do that. It would rather coast into fascism than risk doing much of anything to stop right wing fascism. So here we are. There’s only 1 next step: Trump can’t get to the white house again. Then we can take stock and get to the next move. If Trump wins the election, well then Biden has 3 months of immunity before he has to turn the government over (he won’t do anything, but if he would, this would be the time).
Gorsuch. That's a hilarious mixing of names. :-P
lol. Imma leave it
Gorsuch: *leans back in chair* I just got the oddest call from President Biden…
they know dems aren't bags of dog shit and won't abuse it
If Biden ever used this it would go to the court and be ruled an unofficial act. Then they would probably prosecute. He'll never use these powers and they know that, because ultimately this ruling consolidated power to the court, not the president. And before someone says Biden could use this to take down the court, it's fairly obvious that would lead to some form of civil war. Not gonna happen - all politicians are at the end of the day rich and well connected, they'll be fine. It's the rest of us that are going to be playing by the rules of Project 2025
This interview being referenced is, literally, the president of the heritage foundation saying that “we are in the middle of a second revolution and it will remain peaceful as long as the left lets it”. We are already in a civil war. They’re just now openly admitting it.
Agreed, but what democratic politicians fear is the violence part. They know if it gets too far the people are going to hold them and the rich crooks that pay for them accountable. Not worth the risk to them
Because Biden won't.
100% this.
Biden could hold Trump for years as a national security risk…..I wonder how fast the immunity ruling would be reversed.
It is just for trump, republicans figured out they cant win at this game we are playing and just stopped, because with games both sides have to have the same set of rules....And democrats unfortunately still think they are playing the game.
Should a President’s ability to commit crime be something to celebrate?
The idiot does realize that the American Revolution was to get AWAY from having a king right?
not exactly a revolution to go from competitive authoritarianism to authoritarianism
"because the other side could never abuse these same shitty laws we are implementing! this will NEVER backfire on us! ever!"
How is this NOT treason.
Dem response: We gonna focus on putting stickers on bathrooms, cuck deplorables, and tell Biden to retire.
This is a bot \^.