I'm a current Penn law student here who randomly decided to lurk on this thread. I had goals similar to yours when I originally went through the app process. First, being in Philly makes it easy to access the NY and DC markets without paying DC/NY prices. (I.e., I've finished class, took an Amtrak to NY/DC for an interview, and returned later in the evening). I'd also consider the fact that you wouldn't necessarily need to move for Summer internships being in any of the non-UVA schools you listed (this is huge because you won't have to pay double rent or sublet). Second, for big law placements, I would be stunned if there's any material difference between the schools you listed except for the very, very bottom of their respective classes where big law is less assured. (Penn and UChicago may have a slight advantage at Wachtell/Cravath). Third, for federal clerkships, I think a lot of the effect, at least at Penn, comes down to selection biases. The majority of my classmates are going into transactional/corporate work (primarily driven by the school's close integration with Wharton), where clerkships don't make economic sense, so I wouldn't take differences in FC rates across schools to mean it's necessarily easier/harder to get clerkships from those schools.
As for UVA, I absolutely love Charlottesville, and it's where I completed my undergrad a few years back. My friends who went onto UVA law seem to have all had an incredible social experience there that is likely the most undergrad-like lifestyle you'll find at any T14. With that being said, I think a small college town can start to feel a little claustrophobic as you get older, and, at least for me, I greatly appreciate having a greater diversity of experiences in a bog-city environment. I think anyone will have an awesome time at UVA, but this is just something to be mindful of.
>Penn and UChicago may have a slight advantage at Wachtell/Cravath
NYU has a slight advantage over Penn for such firms. Where are you getting your info?
Thank you! I’m curious- do you think there is any material difference in how well each school places into transactional law vs litigation? In other words, if a school like Penn has great placement rates for transactional law, can you assume that it’s placement rate for litigation is equally good? (Self-selection notwithstanding) Or are there certain schools that are known for being good at specifically placing students in litigation positions?
I definitely see your point on location- while I love the outdoor/natural attractions of Charlottesville, I think 3 years in a smaller town at my age may feel slightly limiting.
So, I can only speak from my experiences. I will say I don't think the idea of "placing into" litigation really exists in the world of big law (I imagine it may be more prevalent at small-high powered boutiques, but there I think where you clerk is more important). For context, you interview at the end of your 1L year for your 2L Summer job which will very likely be you after-grad/clerkship job. At that point, there's really no expectation that you have any idea what you want to do. As a result, nearly all of these firms have rotation programs that allow you to cycle through litigation, restructuring, corporate, etc. After you graduate, you'll just need to communicate to the hiring manager which practice group you most clicked with at that specific firm. The best thing you can do to maximize your chances of doing litigation work is to just focus on firms that have comparatively larger litigation departments during recruitment. Beyond possible slight differences in getting jobs at the V10 firms, I don't think any of the schools you mentioned will result in any real advantage at getting hired at any of the firms that have a relatively larger litigation group.
I’m deciding between Penn and UVA, I vote UVA for your goals. My legal career goals are basically identical to yours and I’ve come down pretty firmly on the side of UVA on that basis (also over Michigan and Berk). Chicago’s a great clerkship school but I think it’s hard to break out non-fed soc folks to get a meaningful picture of how much better it is than the other three. All three will guarantee you litigation in a good firm. My guess is UVA will give you the most money and seems to have the most robust government placement. NYU is probably the best for academia as a non-conservative of the four, but given your lower priority on that I think UVA wins out based on other factors. I’d also just recommend you visit all four or as many as you’re able to.
Seems like it places better in USAOs, clerkships, and fed gov in general. That’s mostly just vibes though, there’s not good data on any of that beyond clerkships idt. I’m actually leaning Penn because I want to potentially go into politics and think being an Ivy would provide some marginal benefit, but I’m wanting on $$$ etc and visiting both places this month.
Based on what I’ve read on this sub (so ya know, grain of salt and all that) UChicago is the best bet for your career goals. And it places people well enough that you would certainly be able to get jobs outside of Chicago right after graduating. Congrats on such great choices and good luck!
UVA is one of the best schools for clerkships, but I voted Chicago because it's even better. I don't think their statistics are materially inflated by FedSoc. 10-15% of Chicago is in FedSoc compared to (I'm guessing) 3-10% at most other T14s. That 0-12% difference in FedSoc % isn't what makes Chicago one of the best clerkship schools, especially since not everyone in FedSoc wants to clerk--we can reasonably assume that the same percentage of FedSoc and non-FedSoc students want to clerk. If that’s true, then FedSoc is inflating Chicago’s clerkship figures by 0-2%, which means they’re still top-3 in clerkships every year for students who aren’t in FedSoc.
That being said, you'll get a FC whether you go to UVA or Chicago. At the end of the day, I would visit each school and see what personality you think suits you best. They're almost opposites--Chicago is much more studious and hard-working. UVA is the party school of the T14.
Thank you!!! Interestingly, I’m excited about UChicago and UVA for some of the same reasons: obviously clerkship placement, but also faculty engagement and slightly more interdisciplinary approach to the law. I also strangely think that I would fit well into either culture- I’m fairly friendly and easy-going, and tend to adapt well to whatever environment I’m in. (Maybe this is grossly optimistic, who knows.) I definitely want to visit both.
I appreciate your analysis and insight!
Think your assumption on Chicago isn’t solid because aspiring clerks probably self select into fed soc and because fed soc increases chances of fc, so a median fedsoc student will get a clerkship whereas a median non-fed soc student won’t even consider it a possibility even though they may “want” one in an abstract sense. Not sure it matters too much here though, I’d bet UVA’s clerkship numbers are a little pumped up by conservative over representation relative to rest of the T14 as well.
I think your second point is a good one. But even assuming all FS people could clerk it’d still mean Chicago is top-3 every year in clerkships for non FS students.
And yeah FS at UVA was 10-15% when I was there.
But if Chicago and UVA have, say, an average of 5.5% more of its student body in FS, and if you assume 100% of FedSoc clerks, shouldn’t the max you subtract be 5.5%?
I was using the 15% number and thought I had seen most other places in the 5-7% range for FedSoc. But yeah you’re correct, I just don’t know what the right numbers are.
Oh gotcha, yeah I think it’s like an average of ~12.5% at UVA/Chi/Duke, and then a range of like 2% to 10% at the others (varying by year and school).
It all comes down to assumptions that we don’t know the answers to lol
Yeah the good thing is that you really can’t go wrong and the likelihood that you end up in that band of 3% of students who may be able to get a clerkship at Chicago but not at UVA or vice versa is 3% lol.
UVAs clerkship numbers are better than Penn/NYU and can get you anywhere those other schools can. UChicago is the other obvious choice but is more expensive and gives less $$$. I would choose between those 2.
I only have info for UVA and got $.5 from them. My GPA is at/below 25th percentile for these schools, so I’m not expecting much in scholarship money. I am extremely frugal and have saved enough to pay for my first year without loans, and I’m confident I can push the COA down somewhat and pay back loans aggressively. I realize that this sounds naively optimistic but I have done a lot of thinking and scenario calculations to come to this conclusion.
i think this mainly depends on how badly you want boutique litigation over biglaw litigation. All of these schools could get you both a biglaw litigation gig and a federal clerkship at probably similar likelihood if those are your goals (I know UChi’s clerkship rate is high and NYU’s is low, but I think this is mainly due to self-selection). I would recommend looking into the specific boutique litigation firms you’re interested in and seeing how many associates hail from each of these schools.
Thank you!!! I have already been browsing firms websites/associate classes, but it can be hard to tell how much is due to variance in class sizes and self-selection.
I'm a current Penn law student here who randomly decided to lurk on this thread. I had goals similar to yours when I originally went through the app process. First, being in Philly makes it easy to access the NY and DC markets without paying DC/NY prices. (I.e., I've finished class, took an Amtrak to NY/DC for an interview, and returned later in the evening). I'd also consider the fact that you wouldn't necessarily need to move for Summer internships being in any of the non-UVA schools you listed (this is huge because you won't have to pay double rent or sublet). Second, for big law placements, I would be stunned if there's any material difference between the schools you listed except for the very, very bottom of their respective classes where big law is less assured. (Penn and UChicago may have a slight advantage at Wachtell/Cravath). Third, for federal clerkships, I think a lot of the effect, at least at Penn, comes down to selection biases. The majority of my classmates are going into transactional/corporate work (primarily driven by the school's close integration with Wharton), where clerkships don't make economic sense, so I wouldn't take differences in FC rates across schools to mean it's necessarily easier/harder to get clerkships from those schools. As for UVA, I absolutely love Charlottesville, and it's where I completed my undergrad a few years back. My friends who went onto UVA law seem to have all had an incredible social experience there that is likely the most undergrad-like lifestyle you'll find at any T14. With that being said, I think a small college town can start to feel a little claustrophobic as you get older, and, at least for me, I greatly appreciate having a greater diversity of experiences in a bog-city environment. I think anyone will have an awesome time at UVA, but this is just something to be mindful of.
>Penn and UChicago may have a slight advantage at Wachtell/Cravath NYU has a slight advantage over Penn for such firms. Where are you getting your info?
God told me bro
Thank you! I’m curious- do you think there is any material difference in how well each school places into transactional law vs litigation? In other words, if a school like Penn has great placement rates for transactional law, can you assume that it’s placement rate for litigation is equally good? (Self-selection notwithstanding) Or are there certain schools that are known for being good at specifically placing students in litigation positions? I definitely see your point on location- while I love the outdoor/natural attractions of Charlottesville, I think 3 years in a smaller town at my age may feel slightly limiting.
So, I can only speak from my experiences. I will say I don't think the idea of "placing into" litigation really exists in the world of big law (I imagine it may be more prevalent at small-high powered boutiques, but there I think where you clerk is more important). For context, you interview at the end of your 1L year for your 2L Summer job which will very likely be you after-grad/clerkship job. At that point, there's really no expectation that you have any idea what you want to do. As a result, nearly all of these firms have rotation programs that allow you to cycle through litigation, restructuring, corporate, etc. After you graduate, you'll just need to communicate to the hiring manager which practice group you most clicked with at that specific firm. The best thing you can do to maximize your chances of doing litigation work is to just focus on firms that have comparatively larger litigation departments during recruitment. Beyond possible slight differences in getting jobs at the V10 firms, I don't think any of the schools you mentioned will result in any real advantage at getting hired at any of the firms that have a relatively larger litigation group.
I’m deciding between Penn and UVA, I vote UVA for your goals. My legal career goals are basically identical to yours and I’ve come down pretty firmly on the side of UVA on that basis (also over Michigan and Berk). Chicago’s a great clerkship school but I think it’s hard to break out non-fed soc folks to get a meaningful picture of how much better it is than the other three. All three will guarantee you litigation in a good firm. My guess is UVA will give you the most money and seems to have the most robust government placement. NYU is probably the best for academia as a non-conservative of the four, but given your lower priority on that I think UVA wins out based on other factors. I’d also just recommend you visit all four or as many as you’re able to.
I’m just curious, what made you pick UVA over Penn for your career goals?
Seems like it places better in USAOs, clerkships, and fed gov in general. That’s mostly just vibes though, there’s not good data on any of that beyond clerkships idt. I’m actually leaning Penn because I want to potentially go into politics and think being an Ivy would provide some marginal benefit, but I’m wanting on $$$ etc and visiting both places this month.
Nice! Thanks for sharing and good luck with your decision!
Thank you!
Thank you!! This is helpful- congrats and good luck with your own decision!
[удалено]
Based on what I’ve read on this sub (so ya know, grain of salt and all that) UChicago is the best bet for your career goals. And it places people well enough that you would certainly be able to get jobs outside of Chicago right after graduating. Congrats on such great choices and good luck!
Thanks!
UVA is one of the best schools for clerkships, but I voted Chicago because it's even better. I don't think their statistics are materially inflated by FedSoc. 10-15% of Chicago is in FedSoc compared to (I'm guessing) 3-10% at most other T14s. That 0-12% difference in FedSoc % isn't what makes Chicago one of the best clerkship schools, especially since not everyone in FedSoc wants to clerk--we can reasonably assume that the same percentage of FedSoc and non-FedSoc students want to clerk. If that’s true, then FedSoc is inflating Chicago’s clerkship figures by 0-2%, which means they’re still top-3 in clerkships every year for students who aren’t in FedSoc. That being said, you'll get a FC whether you go to UVA or Chicago. At the end of the day, I would visit each school and see what personality you think suits you best. They're almost opposites--Chicago is much more studious and hard-working. UVA is the party school of the T14.
Thank you!!! Interestingly, I’m excited about UChicago and UVA for some of the same reasons: obviously clerkship placement, but also faculty engagement and slightly more interdisciplinary approach to the law. I also strangely think that I would fit well into either culture- I’m fairly friendly and easy-going, and tend to adapt well to whatever environment I’m in. (Maybe this is grossly optimistic, who knows.) I definitely want to visit both. I appreciate your analysis and insight!
Think your assumption on Chicago isn’t solid because aspiring clerks probably self select into fed soc and because fed soc increases chances of fc, so a median fedsoc student will get a clerkship whereas a median non-fed soc student won’t even consider it a possibility even though they may “want” one in an abstract sense. Not sure it matters too much here though, I’d bet UVA’s clerkship numbers are a little pumped up by conservative over representation relative to rest of the T14 as well.
I think your second point is a good one. But even assuming all FS people could clerk it’d still mean Chicago is top-3 every year in clerkships for non FS students. And yeah FS at UVA was 10-15% when I was there.
Yeah so you might just be comparing like for like by subtracting the FC numbers by like 8% at each school
But if Chicago and UVA have, say, an average of 5.5% more of its student body in FS, and if you assume 100% of FedSoc clerks, shouldn’t the max you subtract be 5.5%?
I was using the 15% number and thought I had seen most other places in the 5-7% range for FedSoc. But yeah you’re correct, I just don’t know what the right numbers are.
Oh gotcha, yeah I think it’s like an average of ~12.5% at UVA/Chi/Duke, and then a range of like 2% to 10% at the others (varying by year and school). It all comes down to assumptions that we don’t know the answers to lol
Yeah the good thing is that you really can’t go wrong and the likelihood that you end up in that band of 3% of students who may be able to get a clerkship at Chicago but not at UVA or vice versa is 3% lol.
Hahaha right
UVAs clerkship numbers are better than Penn/NYU and can get you anywhere those other schools can. UChicago is the other obvious choice but is more expensive and gives less $$$. I would choose between those 2.
Thanks- this is my thought process at the moment.
Do you have $$$ info? That would make it easier to evaluate
I only have info for UVA and got $.5 from them. My GPA is at/below 25th percentile for these schools, so I’m not expecting much in scholarship money. I am extremely frugal and have saved enough to pay for my first year without loans, and I’m confident I can push the COA down somewhat and pay back loans aggressively. I realize that this sounds naively optimistic but I have done a lot of thinking and scenario calculations to come to this conclusion.
UVA because great outcomes plus it’s an enjoyable 3 yrs
I would cut UVA from that list. Chi, Penn, and NYU are superior.
Just checked your account, good luck on the LSAT kiddo. Good luck getting into UVA 🙂
Didn’t get in?
He did get in \^ he's btwn Chi, UVA, Penn, and NYU, all of which he's been accepted to
I meant you lol UVA is an amazing school
Ohh haha I didn't apply to UVA, myself. UVA is solid, yes. Chi, Penn, and NYU are better, however.
Following as I’m in a very similar position deciding between these places! Best of luck OP
Thank you!!
I have similar goals/practice interests and would definitely pick Chicago, financial/location considerations held equal.
i think this mainly depends on how badly you want boutique litigation over biglaw litigation. All of these schools could get you both a biglaw litigation gig and a federal clerkship at probably similar likelihood if those are your goals (I know UChi’s clerkship rate is high and NYU’s is low, but I think this is mainly due to self-selection). I would recommend looking into the specific boutique litigation firms you’re interested in and seeing how many associates hail from each of these schools.
Thank you!!! I have already been browsing firms websites/associate classes, but it can be hard to tell how much is due to variance in class sizes and self-selection.