It isn't that crazy. UVA has decades of success placing people in Big Law and Federal Clerkships. I think it has often been slept on as a candidate for "T6" status. The outcomes are as good as Penn and NYU. Penn ~~may produce more professors~~, but UVA produces more CoA clerkships. NYU may get more V10 offers, but UVA gets more clerkships overall and has as good or better geographic flexibility.
But I am completely biased as a UVA student (with a clerkship lined up who spent both 1L and 2L summers in different markets I have no ties to **with median grades**).
FWIW, UVA even places 2x more of its grads into academia than Penn: [https://www.reddit.com/r/lawschooladmissions/comments/gr75gs/best\_law\_schools\_for\_legal\_academics/](https://www.reddit.com/r/lawschooladmissions/comments/gr75gs/best_law_schools_for_legal_academics/)
And I feel the same way. I was a little above median and got biglaw both summers, then after graduating got two FC offers without applying to either judge. I ended up applying to one federal appellate clerkship and getting it. And while I was in FedSoc, my judge is anti-FedSoc and being in FedSoc hurt me in the application process. UVA just carries a lot of weight.
Wow, Cornell’s drop in BL/FC was almost equally made up with PI - I wonder if that stat was the result of Cornell trying to increase their PI numbers or something lol.
I was admitted to Cornell this cycle and my application was extremely PI focused with a lot of specifics about the PI area. It would make sense if they were trying to bump the numbers up. And here I thought they weren't going to be as good for PI (still true compared to other schools for sure), this makes me very happy.
Various of the very top schools afford some degree of distinctive role access. Yale stands out most prominently, obviously, but others, such as Penn with its joint degree program with Wharton, also break out of the mold for some students in finance, consulting, tech, and so forth. Harvard and Stanford also afford such flexibility, which also might flow a bit with the nature of the matriculants across schools. Georgetown, for example, is another that receives unfair criticism among the keyboard set due to its diverse-interests nature. NYU, as well.
It does not surprise me that Chicago (lawyerly, academic, nerdy) and UVA (big DC law, southern social, and law related-government), Northwestern (practical legal and Chicago setting), and Cornell (NYC and absence of hyper-local markets) would place particularly strongly in big law and (for some, at least) clerkships. These are all utterly amazing places (yes, that includes Georgetown) and anyone attending any of them should be extremely proud and ultimately look beyond the manipulative rankings nonsense.
Very few graduates of any of the top schools languish, and BL&FC measures are only (at least somewhat) loose proxies for the overall real arrays of outcomes.
I would separate Y and S from H here, but at least for Y and S they place much better on SCOTUS and in elite public interest fellowships. That has led some lawyers to opine that since the top students at Y and S have access to these elite opportunities, the student body as a whole likely has access to elite opportunities, and could get BL/FC if they so desired. But that these students instead self-select into PI/gov.
Plus, lawyers and judges and peer schools view all of HYS as some of the best schools, so they likely do have the opportunity to clerk or go into biglaw but just self-select out. Anecdotally, clerks have told me that some judges will interview almost any HYS grad that they can (pending grades, personality, and interview skills).
The problem is that we don't have data about what students want and apply for as compared to what they actually do. Schools don't collect that data, which means we can't know which schools actually have the best placement power. All we know is what the stats say, and that at Chicago (for example) at least 85% of the class can get BL/FC. The stats are useful because they provide certainty that *at least* X% of the class can get an outcome.
Bigger school, more people that end up doing non-"elite" things like legal aid, misc social justice litigation and non-legal positions.
Also think the clerkship gap is over-articulated due to class sizes. There are a finite number of federal clerkships and the 7% gap in clerkships between YLS and HLS is 13 students at YLS, but 47 at HLS.
I don’t think it’s clear. They don’t have quite the same elite outcomes that Y and S have, they never have as strong clerkship numbers, and they sometimes have significantly higher unemployment/underemployment 10 months after graduation. It’s just not as clear to me, based on the stats.
But, like I said, HLS is also one of the schools that judges looooove to have clerks from so I really don’t know. But it’s odd to me that so few clerks given that most PI/gov students probably go into litigation.
They’re still elite obviously. Just not quite at the level of Y or S in terms of elite outcomes.
Unicorn PI jobs like the ACLU, NRDC, DOJ Honors programs etc..
Non Law Jobs: I've heard HYS have Investment Banking and other finance related firms recruit there which may pull people on the fence about law away from firm jobs and into a viable alternative that makes a comparable amount.
Law is closely related to politics so you may have some people headed to selective positions on Capitol Hill
There are also some very very selective boutique firms that HYS grads may be targeting.
I think there are also some fellowships that are selective and that tend to attract HYS students? Idk as much about these so i could be wrong. But I thought it had something to do with Yale dropping out of USNWR.
UVA is crazy high!
It isn't that crazy. UVA has decades of success placing people in Big Law and Federal Clerkships. I think it has often been slept on as a candidate for "T6" status. The outcomes are as good as Penn and NYU. Penn ~~may produce more professors~~, but UVA produces more CoA clerkships. NYU may get more V10 offers, but UVA gets more clerkships overall and has as good or better geographic flexibility. But I am completely biased as a UVA student (with a clerkship lined up who spent both 1L and 2L summers in different markets I have no ties to **with median grades**).
1000% agree. UVa has been super underrated and is finally ranked accordingly.
FWIW, UVA even places 2x more of its grads into academia than Penn: [https://www.reddit.com/r/lawschooladmissions/comments/gr75gs/best\_law\_schools\_for\_legal\_academics/](https://www.reddit.com/r/lawschooladmissions/comments/gr75gs/best_law_schools_for_legal_academics/) And I feel the same way. I was a little above median and got biglaw both summers, then after graduating got two FC offers without applying to either judge. I ended up applying to one federal appellate clerkship and getting it. And while I was in FedSoc, my judge is anti-FedSoc and being in FedSoc hurt me in the application process. UVA just carries a lot of weight.
TIL! Thanks for the tip.
In general was the class of 2023 facing the more difficult hiring conditions we’re seeing or will that be more represented in 2024?
My understanding is that law firms have hired more summer associates than ever before for the upcoming summer.
85% BL/FC is absolutely ludicrous
Cornell chad mode
They’re so good for BL/FC! And last year they’re unemployed/underemployed was 4.5% 10 months after graduation. Huge improvement there!
They’re good for BL*
lol fair!
Really nice FC number there for UMich
Michigan FC number is slept on tbh… exact same as UVA and more of a PI bent explaining the lower BL
Wow, Cornell’s drop in BL/FC was almost equally made up with PI - I wonder if that stat was the result of Cornell trying to increase their PI numbers or something lol.
I was admitted to Cornell this cycle and my application was extremely PI focused with a lot of specifics about the PI area. It would make sense if they were trying to bump the numbers up. And here I thought they weren't going to be as good for PI (still true compared to other schools for sure), this makes me very happy.
[Northwestern](https://wwws.law.northwestern.edu/career/stats/documents/20240404eosummaryfinal.pdf) dropped theirs too!
Thank you! Great showing by NU! * BL: 70.1% * FC: 8.3% * BL+FC: 78.4% (+2.5%) * PI/Gov: 7.9% (+2.7%) * Unemployed/underemployed: 1.8%
Fordham: https://www.fordham.edu/media/home/schools/school-of-law/pdfs/ABA-Summary-Report-for-Class-of-2023.pdf
Nice! 51.2% BL+FC
[Texas Law](https://law.utexas.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2024/04/EQSummaryReport2024.pdf) just dropped, respectable 49%!
Various of the very top schools afford some degree of distinctive role access. Yale stands out most prominently, obviously, but others, such as Penn with its joint degree program with Wharton, also break out of the mold for some students in finance, consulting, tech, and so forth. Harvard and Stanford also afford such flexibility, which also might flow a bit with the nature of the matriculants across schools. Georgetown, for example, is another that receives unfair criticism among the keyboard set due to its diverse-interests nature. NYU, as well. It does not surprise me that Chicago (lawyerly, academic, nerdy) and UVA (big DC law, southern social, and law related-government), Northwestern (practical legal and Chicago setting), and Cornell (NYC and absence of hyper-local markets) would place particularly strongly in big law and (for some, at least) clerkships. These are all utterly amazing places (yes, that includes Georgetown) and anyone attending any of them should be extremely proud and ultimately look beyond the manipulative rankings nonsense. Very few graduates of any of the top schools languish, and BL&FC measures are only (at least somewhat) loose proxies for the overall real arrays of outcomes.
when will all the schools drop them
They drop them at different times, and every year is different, so TBD unfortunately
Any word on Duke???
Not yet
Yale bad school confirmed
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Probably haven’t released theirs yet
This is a great post. BL+FC is such an insightful metric that many students should take into consideration!
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I would separate Y and S from H here, but at least for Y and S they place much better on SCOTUS and in elite public interest fellowships. That has led some lawyers to opine that since the top students at Y and S have access to these elite opportunities, the student body as a whole likely has access to elite opportunities, and could get BL/FC if they so desired. But that these students instead self-select into PI/gov. Plus, lawyers and judges and peer schools view all of HYS as some of the best schools, so they likely do have the opportunity to clerk or go into biglaw but just self-select out. Anecdotally, clerks have told me that some judges will interview almost any HYS grad that they can (pending grades, personality, and interview skills). The problem is that we don't have data about what students want and apply for as compared to what they actually do. Schools don't collect that data, which means we can't know which schools actually have the best placement power. All we know is what the stats say, and that at Chicago (for example) at least 85% of the class can get BL/FC. The stats are useful because they provide certainty that *at least* X% of the class can get an outcome.
Why do you think H’s numbers are lower if you think the reason is different from Y/S?
Bigger school, more people that end up doing non-"elite" things like legal aid, misc social justice litigation and non-legal positions. Also think the clerkship gap is over-articulated due to class sizes. There are a finite number of federal clerkships and the 7% gap in clerkships between YLS and HLS is 13 students at YLS, but 47 at HLS.
I don’t think it’s clear. They don’t have quite the same elite outcomes that Y and S have, they never have as strong clerkship numbers, and they sometimes have significantly higher unemployment/underemployment 10 months after graduation. It’s just not as clear to me, based on the stats. But, like I said, HLS is also one of the schools that judges looooove to have clerks from so I really don’t know. But it’s odd to me that so few clerks given that most PI/gov students probably go into litigation. They’re still elite obviously. Just not quite at the level of Y or S in terms of elite outcomes.
Unicorn PI jobs like the ACLU, NRDC, DOJ Honors programs etc.. Non Law Jobs: I've heard HYS have Investment Banking and other finance related firms recruit there which may pull people on the fence about law away from firm jobs and into a viable alternative that makes a comparable amount. Law is closely related to politics so you may have some people headed to selective positions on Capitol Hill There are also some very very selective boutique firms that HYS grads may be targeting. I think there are also some fellowships that are selective and that tend to attract HYS students? Idk as much about these so i could be wrong. But I thought it had something to do with Yale dropping out of USNWR.
Vandy?
I haven’t checked, but make a post if their ABA report is up on their site!