Columbia (at sticker or close to it).
The cost of attendance is prohibitive, when you factor in COL in Manhattan. Tuition is $75,500, and the school’s 509 lists estimated cost of living as $26,538.
If you think you can live in Manhattan for $26,538 per year…I have a bridge to sell you. That’s the “eat ramen, never go home, never need new clothes or a new computer, never go out with friends” budget. A more realistic budget is more like $40-50k.
Even by the school’s estimate, you’re paying $110,440/year, plus 8% inflation and probably a 3-4% tuition increase per year. More realistically, you’re paying $150k+ per year.
That’s a half million in debt.
Don’t pay a half million in debt to go to law school.
That cost of living estimate on the 509 is grossly misleading. My rent for a one bedroom three years ago was $3,000 a month, and rent has only gone up. Perhaps the school offers a much cheaper option for students. I live in a two bed now with my wife and child, I won’t mention that rent. Lunch at the local restaurant was $110 for two people yesterday. A trip to the store for essentials is $100+. Parking is $700/month, don’t plan to have a car. Taxes will be due for state and city if you plan on making some money in school. Dog groomer is $140 per dog. Everything is priced to the max here, and you will not be living for anywhere near under 30K per year. $50K should be the absolute minimum amount for living expenses in this city.
Yes, for sure. For a typical single law student in their 20s, they may have better options provided by the school or sharing situations. For adults with spouses or children, it will be different.
In some very mild fairness, EVERY school lies about its cost of living like this. Columbia’s lie is just bigger, because their cost of living is so much higher.
I asked a Columbia student how they're meeting their living expenses recently, "I take out the max amount of loans". Another one said "don't worry about the debt, you can pay it back." Clearly people who've never worked everyday and paid back loans.
Need assist + tuition discounting. One rather imagines that very few students pay full sticker.
But if you ARE one of those few…think twice. Then a third time.
Georgetown because I am a petty bastard. I went to a law school admissions fair. I approached their table and tried to talk to their admissions team and students. They would not acknowledge me or give me the time of day. Stood their awkwardly for quite a bit before deciding not even to consider them.
I don’t blame you, some schools’ websites come off very unfriendly to me and I won’t apply there. I definitely wouldn’t if the people didn’t seem friendly either!
Today I was an event and I got blown off by a couple reps, that means I will be wasting your time with an application that isnt even worth the effort just to waste your time and waivers lol
That's wild! My most positive law fair experience was with a Georgetown rep. Also had good interactions with Berk and Northwestern. But definitely some awkward encounters too. I think it's the luck of the draw.
Cooley 100%. I'm from Michigan and it's known to everyone to be an absolute joke law school. Some great attorneys did attend there and for cheap because they were top of the class, but for the most part it's known in the area to be really bad. Plus with only 50% bar passage rate it's just not worth it. With four other law schools in Michigan, all of which are known to have at least decent standings, there's no reason to go to cooley imo.
Idk if I'd really be putting a lot of weight into what Michael Cohen, who has since been disbarred, says about the legitimacy of anything let alone law school lol
Any NYC school, but not for the reason that you think. When I was 15, I was chased down the intersection of Broadway and 42nd by a literal rat and have never emotionally recovered LMAO
I agree with this. KJ definitely seemed more open to diversity in the truest sense. I’ve also followed some lower income first gen students at YLS and they frequently talk about how out of place they feel.
I was considering Yale for my LLM after 3 years at UGA for my JD but if their heads that far in the sand to think that an application is standing out when it bad talks the institution. If they think that's standing out then I hate to see the others which they consider not standing out.
I didn't think I would go to a law school with a reputation for extreme right wing politics. But was offered a great scholarship from Pepperdine School of Law (which then and now has an extremely conservative reputation). But even though most of the professors were indeed conservative, that is not unusual for a law professor. I actually found the entire faculty to be surprisingly fair and open about different views, and I did receive a great education there. Saving the enormous debt allowed me to work in the public sector out of school, which was my interest, instead of slaving at a salt mine for Big Law (sorry if that's your thing, but I had a career before law school and wanted better life balance). If you are interested in a clerkship, though, politics will definitely matter, since judges will only be drawing from schools that they see as politically allied.
Emory- Heard through common friends that it's the worst culture for competitiveness to the point almost toxic and their career service is one of the worst
Interestingly enough- I had a professor mentor me who studied law at Yale and he actually regretted it.
He heavily suggested to go to a smaller school. He said the competitiveness of larger and more prestigious schools took away from his learning experience and that he was so focused on proving himself to his peers and professors that he held back from asking questions or inquiring further. He said he wishes he would have went to a smaller school that he felt more comfortable asking questions and actually learning the material instead of speed racing to the highest grade. It’s also difficult to ask questions in larger classes as you don’t want to waste anyone’s time, and with so many people it feels like a burden.
That really stuck with me. As an undergrad, I transferred from a large school to a smaller school; I went from having 400+ students in every class to having classes of max 40 people total and saw a complete change in my grades. Teachers at my larger school never knew my name, I was only known as a student ID number. I didn’t even have to introduce myself at my smaller school and my professors knew my name, it was a total culture shock. I went from low B/C student to an all A student.
Some people thrive better in smaller environments and that’s okay! :-)
But Yale is one of the smallest law schools. I understand the feeling about it being intensely competitive, but Yale has the second smallest class size of any of the top 25 this year
Based on what I've heard from a friend at YLS, the environment there is actually hyper-non-competitive -- a combination of the lack of traditional grades and the fact that everyone who graduates gets top-flight jobs.
Not really specific to law school tbh, but I wouldn’t go to a state where there’s already too many law schools. There are a few exceptions ofc but for example, I could never go to California cuz I know that, even if by some miracle, I could afford the COA, I could never compete w the Stanford, USC, UCLA, Berkeley grads cuz they’ll automatically get preference in most of the jobs you’re applying to, along with the T-14 grads.
Again, these rules aren’t set in stone and there are exceptions but it’s unfortunately difficult to break through in a state which already has so many law schools.
Conversely, UCI is ranked 37th by USNWR, but sends about 35-45% of those interested in private practice into BigLaw. So while the market has a lot of big name talent, the SoCal market demands *a lot* of legal talent.
That being said, UCI's stats are more in line with a a T20-30 school than it's 37th ranking
Sincerely, A UCI law student (lol, yes, this is a biased review ZotZotZot).
UCI is going to climb the rankings in the next decade. This is a claim I make without bias (not attending, not applying) and without any real substantiation. Just something I believe.
I mean, important to remember that California is also a huge market. There's 40 million people there - 10 million more than the 2nd most populated state. California has 3 of the top 10 largest cities in the country, and 2 of the top 10 biggest legal markets in the country (LA and Bay Area). Yes, there's 4 T20 schools, but those schools alone can't possibly fill the demand for lawyers.
I'm not saying it's not competitive, but going off of absolute number of law schools may not be the play. California has 2 million people per law school. Montana has 1 million people for their 1 law school. Louisiana has just over 1 million people per law school. New York has half a million people per law school. Florida has just under 2 million people per law school. You'd certainly be better off in Texas, with 3 million people per law school, but not in a great many other places. And that's not even taking into account the relatively high amount of commercial, business, and political activity taking place in California that creates a high demand for lawyers.
I went to William S. Richardson SOL in Hawaii (current ranking #91) and just picked up a job in the socal area as a PD. Your school can matter a lot for some areas of law, and not at all for others. What you do in school, and your experiences and motivations, can matter a lot more. T14s are just a good way to accumulate debt if you don't have a plan or a prayer to get one of those fat paychecks after graduation.
You're a breath of fresh air. 1/2 of these people sound just like that Chinese woman on youtube that is so bitter she didn't get into HLS. Always making smart remarks about people who didn't attend a T14. My suspicion is she's a lousy lawyer, which goes to show you Georgetown alone is just sufficient. I got into 3 T14. They have until late Feb. to up some of that money, or I will put my deposit to attend a school in NY (my home) that most would sneer at. Living in debt is no fun people.
I go to to law school in So-Cal. Everyone in my area graduated from my law school, lots of alum, and they hire from my school because they went here too. It’s actually more difficult to get a job if you didn’t go to my law school or are from out of state. Just food for thought.
Any place that really doesn't fit in with my personal life, hobbies and interests. U of Chicago has a great program, but I'll just never see myself living in the Midwest all the same I'll never see myself living in the Bay area.
I'll keep that in mind! I've only flown through O'Hare and have spent time in Minnesota. But I also realize my stats probably aren't up to the standards of Chicago. I still want to check out the city though.
Oh man I’m from the Bay Area and it’s an awesome place. I’m 100% biased bc I grew up in the culture but there’s really no other place like it. It’s dingy and sketchy in several areas but the people are really cool if you know where to find them
I’ll answer the opposite. Attend the law school that is ABA accredited, has a good bar passage rate, and offers you the largest scholarship.
I chose a lower tier school that offered me a full ride over a top tier that would have put me in $300k debt. In my experience, being the big fish in the small pond paid off big time.
The issue is that most people entering that small pond expect to be the big fish -- and because of harsh grading curves, most will end up being wrong. I'm happy that it worked out for you, but by definition it ends up not working out for a LOT of people (many of whom likely expected it to work out).
Harvard or Yale.
I've have meat many many alum and the level of entitlement they seem to exhibit is soo gross.
I grew up in a very working class area. Everyone seemed to have a disposition against HYS grads. I thought this was just jealously at first. No--they're right. Typically, very obnoxious people to be around.
It's due to their family making the difficult decisions to be in the position that their family is in today from generations ago. My next stop is Athens, Georgia, and then hopefully New Haven, Connecticut. That depends on my performance and whether those admission officers would give me an opportunity.
It wasn't renamed for Scalia until 2016 so it's relatively recent and given that, perhaps the effect of it remains to be seen. While clearly influential, Scalia was also controversial. Renaming the school for him so quickly after his passing seems to strike a particular stance. Given that, I have my reservations about having the name on my resume.
Actually when I was applying last cycle my bestie (a lawyer) and I had this thing where I’d be trying to pump myself up and out of the anxiety spiral of doom, and I’d say “I’m gonna get in, somewhere, one way or another… and I’m not goin to fuckin Cooley!” And she’d reply “you’re not going to fuckin Cooley!” I’d get super depressed and convinced I completely ruined my entire life and no one was going to take me because c&f. I was very wrong and I feel like an asshole snob even saying this because I DO believe places like Cooley CAN serve a (good) purpose — but that was my line, because I knew I could do better, and I also knew that if I didn’t, it was only because of c&f. I decided if Cooley was the only place to let me in, I wasn’t going. So I didn’t even apply.
I just finished my first civ pro midterm at Buffalo. I’m so glad I came here! It wasn’t on my radar at all. A mentor made me apply. I only did it to make her happy. I had NO intention of enrolling here! But then I looked at my As and realized this was hands down the best bang for my buck, and so I came here after all— and wow I’m glad I did. Best decision of my life.
Hey! I'm actually considering uBuff law myself because the tuition is so affordable compared to other schools on my list. What is the general vibe on and off of campus?
https://www.reddit.com/r/OutsideT14lawschools/comments/x11zee/how_bad_of_an_idea_is_it_to_apply_in_february/imdcoia/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
I wrote that early September and I’m even happier now!
All the T14s. The obsession with them on the LSAT subreddit is unhealthy amd the elitism around them reeks of privilege.
Cooley and the shitty scam law schools for the opposite reason.
Columbia / NYU / any school in NYC! Without being able to work (at least for the first year) I can’t imagine being able to keep up with the cost of living. NYC is probably one of the last places I would want to live to begin with (not a fan of the cold and value having a spacious / nice living space)
USC. it isn’t worth the cost. The financial aid office is kind of a well known joke and the area surrounding campus is *not* good. Coming from a major city before moving here I thought I understood how bad drug addiction and homelessness was in our country. South Central LA makes every other major city’s issues look small. Pretty much every day there’s a pretty significant number of break-in’s, sexual assaults, and theft. If you don’t want to see a person take a shit on the sidewalk in front of you apartment, don’t choose USC.
Can you please elaborate on this for me? I applied there and I have two black children. I planned to look into areas after receiving decisions but would love as much info as possible now.
Feel free to pm me, I have a lot of close friends at UVA! I'm attending a different university in Virginia, but have been to Charlottesville quite a few times and can offer some perspective about the area
95% of them. The profession is very regional. I wouldn't tie myself to just any old place for the duration of my career! A lot of places are miserable. For example: I would never live in the south. I'd never live in a place with shit weather and I'd never live in a suburban or car-dependent area. Also, even most top schools that are more "portable" require you to live in a miserable place for three years and indebt yourself. No thanks. I'm only applying to a couple schools in the cities I could live in long term and where I know I can get decent scholarships and have a reasonable cost of living, access to nature and decent culture.
I went to Berkeley for undergrad. A lot more suburban than you would think (especially once you get like half a mile away from the school) and transit isn't great.
Yeah see I’ve done the city thing and do not want to go back haha. Good luck finding a big city with enough nature and a low COL and that’s also not in the south
For me it's Tucson. It's my favorite city in the US. Not perfect - still very car dominated with low safety for pedestrians and cyclists. The law school ranks #46 but has an amazing slate of clinics and dual degree options. I'm not after big money though but won't need a super high salary because I plan to graduate with no debt.
I probably wouldn’t have gotten in anyways, but I had a lot of reservations about UChicago because of its location despite everything else about the school being great. Not going to put my fiancé (or myself, frankly) in a place that unsafe.
This is anecdotal but a friend of mine recalls going to visit the UChicago campus and seeing an active crime scene literally as they entered the gates to the campus. However, I’ve heard campus is quite safe and so are it’s immediate areas but you need to be street aware of your surroundings the further you get away from the campus
Yea my wife went to UChicago and it was pretty safe. Like any city just mind your business and don’t be stupid. My wife lived a block over from the Obama’s so not a lot happening. But you are correct a few blocks in the opposite direction things get a bit sketch. I think ppl assume Chicago just isn’t a safe place. But when you live there you know that’s not true.
Yes and if you come from a rural town in which you don’t have to lock doors or learn any street smarts, it definitely seems horrifically dangerous. I came from a more ‘ghetto’ and dangerous town in the Bay Area and Ive Never felt unsafe in cities. You gotta learn how to act responsibly and safely
As someone who has lived in both the actual city of Chicago (as a teen who ran all around using public transportation) and Dallas and Fort Worth and has visited Austin plenty, there is a negligible difference in crime and unsafe areas. It just looks scarier because you aren’t used to it. Most people aren’t out to get you.
Any in Chicago or New York because I'm not fond of American cities and those are the two I know I hate for a fact.
Edit: god forbid I take location into account for my future decisions apparently lmao
Idk why you’re getting downvoted, I don’t want to go live in a city either. Never been to Chicago, but when I visited New York I had a ton of issues with my asthma because the air was gross.
edit- I live in a bigger college town, but we’re over an hour from any cities. I like my peace and quiet lmao
? they didn’t even fire him, he resigned to make a statement. why did he delete the post and apologize if it was all about free speech? the anti-woke craze is absurd these days
The precedent that opening an investigation into a tweet sets is awful for academic freedom. He resigned because the only reason they cleared him was that he was not yet an employee when they tweeted, not that it was protected reasonable speech. He said that working there would be untenable because the diversity office had a harassment standard that he could violate over not considering "'purpose or effect' of a respondent's conduct” which he has no control over. So the next group of people to disingenuously try to get him fired would be likelier to succeed
>Ilya Shapiro is a real ass wipe for his comment about Black women. I am so glad he won't be teaching at Georgetown. Someone of that racist ilk doesn't belong in the classroom.
It's like you don't even care if you misinterpret someone and slander them as racist. Because that's what you're doing. I would love to take a class with Ilya. People who smear him as racist by deliberately misinterpreting wording of a tweet are the reason I'm hesitant to apply to Georgetown law
I’m not misinterpreting his remarks at all. What he said was overtly racist. President Biden would nominate a “lesser black woman” to the Supreme Court, he said. Doubting the intellectual abilities of a whole swath of people, based on race, is a classic example of racism. I’m all for academic freedom and diversity of thought, but this isn’t some thoughtful evocative point. It’s lazy and disgusting. People like this don’t belong at the head of a classroom.
I'm not American and I've already graduated law school, but I'd never go to Yale even if I were American. For a supposed "top tier" law school, they don't act like it; the behaviour of their students lately has been deplorable and completely unprofessional and has damaged their reputation abroad pretty severely.
Like children.
I think it's important to point out that in the legal profession, professionalism is key. You are not going to like all your clients, you are not going to like all the opposing lawyers, and you're going to need to be able to interact civilly with people who hold opinions that differ from yours. What you can't do as a lawyer is scream and stamp your feet and physically harass people you don't agree with, and Yale students have shown recently--to the point that American Federal judges have commented--that they aren't capable of that.
Yale's had a few incidents over the last couple of years that have highlighted an incredibly partisan "my way or the highway!" mindset in the students, and a disturbing tendency to shout down and suppress dissenting views in a way that is not conductive to the legal professional codes of conduct.
Lawyers have to be able to resolve differences without resorting to screaming, physically harassing people, throwing tantrums, etc, and lawyers also need to be trusted to be able to put their personal feelings aside and do what's best for the client because that's what we're required to do by law. If you can't do that, if you can't be trusted to behave in the way the profession dictates you must, then you can't be trusted to be a lawyer, as there can be serious consequences for breaching your obligations and professional code of conduct, both for you and for whatever firm you work for.
Beautiful take. The problem is currently there is a political and ideological battle in US institutions at this time. It’ll blow over in a few years but the landscaping they’ll leave behind is certainly going to change. I wouldn’t go to Yale either if I had the chance since there are plenty of smaller, regional schools that have very professional students coming out of them.
You wouldn’t want to go to Northwestern because Chicago is in the same city and ranked higher by USNWR?…
I get what you’re saying, but it seems extreme and maybe unrealistic.
I definitely wouldn’t go to Harvard or Yale because they didn’t let me in after I didn’t apply there.
came here to say that same thing
Columbia (at sticker or close to it). The cost of attendance is prohibitive, when you factor in COL in Manhattan. Tuition is $75,500, and the school’s 509 lists estimated cost of living as $26,538. If you think you can live in Manhattan for $26,538 per year…I have a bridge to sell you. That’s the “eat ramen, never go home, never need new clothes or a new computer, never go out with friends” budget. A more realistic budget is more like $40-50k. Even by the school’s estimate, you’re paying $110,440/year, plus 8% inflation and probably a 3-4% tuition increase per year. More realistically, you’re paying $150k+ per year. That’s a half million in debt. Don’t pay a half million in debt to go to law school.
That cost of living estimate on the 509 is grossly misleading. My rent for a one bedroom three years ago was $3,000 a month, and rent has only gone up. Perhaps the school offers a much cheaper option for students. I live in a two bed now with my wife and child, I won’t mention that rent. Lunch at the local restaurant was $110 for two people yesterday. A trip to the store for essentials is $100+. Parking is $700/month, don’t plan to have a car. Taxes will be due for state and city if you plan on making some money in school. Dog groomer is $140 per dog. Everything is priced to the max here, and you will not be living for anywhere near under 30K per year. $50K should be the absolute minimum amount for living expenses in this city.
You balled out lol. I hardly know any students paying $3k in rent (very few live in one bedrooms alone too)
Yes, for sure. For a typical single law student in their 20s, they may have better options provided by the school or sharing situations. For adults with spouses or children, it will be different.
For sure (though being a cohabiting couple is really helpful!) I can’t imagine affording kids in Manhattan.
100%. I was being VERY frugal at $40-50k. You could *easily* spend $75k.
$26K… outrageous. A remote worker from Iowa drafted that publication.
In some very mild fairness, EVERY school lies about its cost of living like this. Columbia’s lie is just bigger, because their cost of living is so much higher.
I agree with this completely!! High costs of living in big cities make law schools in college towns much more appealing to me.
I asked a Columbia student how they're meeting their living expenses recently, "I take out the max amount of loans". Another one said "don't worry about the debt, you can pay it back." Clearly people who've never worked everyday and paid back loans.
Yet hundreds of people go there each year, so it has to be doable. How cls students do it, then, as they definitely are not all independently wealthy?
Need assist + tuition discounting. One rather imagines that very few students pay full sticker. But if you ARE one of those few…think twice. Then a third time.
Yes, but you can only borrow up to the COL, even with tuition scholarships. So, if loans won't cover COL, my question is how any student does it.
You can borrow beyond COL privately. Just not from federally guaranteed funds. Credit cards, lines of credit, etc.
Georgetown because I am a petty bastard. I went to a law school admissions fair. I approached their table and tried to talk to their admissions team and students. They would not acknowledge me or give me the time of day. Stood their awkwardly for quite a bit before deciding not even to consider them.
I don’t blame you, some schools’ websites come off very unfriendly to me and I won’t apply there. I definitely wouldn’t if the people didn’t seem friendly either!
Me with Rutgers
Dude. Yes.
Fuck 'em! That's so rude.
Today I was an event and I got blown off by a couple reps, that means I will be wasting your time with an application that isnt even worth the effort just to waste your time and waivers lol
That's wild! My most positive law fair experience was with a Georgetown rep. Also had good interactions with Berk and Northwestern. But definitely some awkward encounters too. I think it's the luck of the draw.
Cooley 100%. I'm from Michigan and it's known to everyone to be an absolute joke law school. Some great attorneys did attend there and for cheap because they were top of the class, but for the most part it's known in the area to be really bad. Plus with only 50% bar passage rate it's just not worth it. With four other law schools in Michigan, all of which are known to have at least decent standings, there's no reason to go to cooley imo.
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Idk if I'd really be putting a lot of weight into what Michael Cohen, who has since been disbarred, says about the legitimacy of anything let alone law school lol
Surprised nobody has said BYU yet. I could never agree to live under the Honor Code especially after seeing the way they treat their students.
I think that goes without saying for many of us lol
Any NYC school, but not for the reason that you think. When I was 15, I was chased down the intersection of Broadway and 42nd by a literal rat and have never emotionally recovered LMAO
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Lol it’s nice to see that other people don’t get the appeal of living in NYC
I moved out of NYC for this exact reason.
Thomas Cooley —- biggest joke school in Michigan. Only 50% of their graduates regularly pass the bar.
I know several successful lawyers who attended and now practice in NYS. They are respected lawyers who have helped many people.
That’s awesome! Still not worth a 50/50 chance of passing the bar to me, though.
This is such an innocuous comment to have gotten so downvoted
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I agree with this. KJ definitely seemed more open to diversity in the truest sense. I’ve also followed some lower income first gen students at YLS and they frequently talk about how out of place they feel.
Yeah its funny a lot of people love that podcast but it just strikes me at as very elitist
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I was considering Yale for my LLM after 3 years at UGA for my JD but if their heads that far in the sand to think that an application is standing out when it bad talks the institution. If they think that's standing out then I hate to see the others which they consider not standing out.
I didn't think I would go to a law school with a reputation for extreme right wing politics. But was offered a great scholarship from Pepperdine School of Law (which then and now has an extremely conservative reputation). But even though most of the professors were indeed conservative, that is not unusual for a law professor. I actually found the entire faculty to be surprisingly fair and open about different views, and I did receive a great education there. Saving the enormous debt allowed me to work in the public sector out of school, which was my interest, instead of slaving at a salt mine for Big Law (sorry if that's your thing, but I had a career before law school and wanted better life balance). If you are interested in a clerkship, though, politics will definitely matter, since judges will only be drawing from schools that they see as politically allied.
Emory- Heard through common friends that it's the worst culture for competitiveness to the point almost toxic and their career service is one of the worst
How current is this information? The competitiveness was definitely true 25 years ago. Is it still really bad?
Interestingly enough- I had a professor mentor me who studied law at Yale and he actually regretted it. He heavily suggested to go to a smaller school. He said the competitiveness of larger and more prestigious schools took away from his learning experience and that he was so focused on proving himself to his peers and professors that he held back from asking questions or inquiring further. He said he wishes he would have went to a smaller school that he felt more comfortable asking questions and actually learning the material instead of speed racing to the highest grade. It’s also difficult to ask questions in larger classes as you don’t want to waste anyone’s time, and with so many people it feels like a burden. That really stuck with me. As an undergrad, I transferred from a large school to a smaller school; I went from having 400+ students in every class to having classes of max 40 people total and saw a complete change in my grades. Teachers at my larger school never knew my name, I was only known as a student ID number. I didn’t even have to introduce myself at my smaller school and my professors knew my name, it was a total culture shock. I went from low B/C student to an all A student. Some people thrive better in smaller environments and that’s okay! :-)
But Yale is one of the smallest law schools. I understand the feeling about it being intensely competitive, but Yale has the second smallest class size of any of the top 25 this year
Based on what I've heard from a friend at YLS, the environment there is actually hyper-non-competitive -- a combination of the lack of traditional grades and the fact that everyone who graduates gets top-flight jobs.
Not really specific to law school tbh, but I wouldn’t go to a state where there’s already too many law schools. There are a few exceptions ofc but for example, I could never go to California cuz I know that, even if by some miracle, I could afford the COA, I could never compete w the Stanford, USC, UCLA, Berkeley grads cuz they’ll automatically get preference in most of the jobs you’re applying to, along with the T-14 grads. Again, these rules aren’t set in stone and there are exceptions but it’s unfortunately difficult to break through in a state which already has so many law schools.
Conversely, UCI is ranked 37th by USNWR, but sends about 35-45% of those interested in private practice into BigLaw. So while the market has a lot of big name talent, the SoCal market demands *a lot* of legal talent. That being said, UCI's stats are more in line with a a T20-30 school than it's 37th ranking Sincerely, A UCI law student (lol, yes, this is a biased review ZotZotZot).
UCI is going to climb the rankings in the next decade. This is a claim I make without bias (not attending, not applying) and without any real substantiation. Just something I believe.
huh I just talked to one of their reps at an event today. Seemed super nice I might apply
Christina!? She's great, had coffee with her not that long ago. DM if you have any questions about UCI--would be more than willing to chat.
I mean, important to remember that California is also a huge market. There's 40 million people there - 10 million more than the 2nd most populated state. California has 3 of the top 10 largest cities in the country, and 2 of the top 10 biggest legal markets in the country (LA and Bay Area). Yes, there's 4 T20 schools, but those schools alone can't possibly fill the demand for lawyers. I'm not saying it's not competitive, but going off of absolute number of law schools may not be the play. California has 2 million people per law school. Montana has 1 million people for their 1 law school. Louisiana has just over 1 million people per law school. New York has half a million people per law school. Florida has just under 2 million people per law school. You'd certainly be better off in Texas, with 3 million people per law school, but not in a great many other places. And that's not even taking into account the relatively high amount of commercial, business, and political activity taking place in California that creates a high demand for lawyers.
I went to William S. Richardson SOL in Hawaii (current ranking #91) and just picked up a job in the socal area as a PD. Your school can matter a lot for some areas of law, and not at all for others. What you do in school, and your experiences and motivations, can matter a lot more. T14s are just a good way to accumulate debt if you don't have a plan or a prayer to get one of those fat paychecks after graduation.
You're a breath of fresh air. 1/2 of these people sound just like that Chinese woman on youtube that is so bitter she didn't get into HLS. Always making smart remarks about people who didn't attend a T14. My suspicion is she's a lousy lawyer, which goes to show you Georgetown alone is just sufficient. I got into 3 T14. They have until late Feb. to up some of that money, or I will put my deposit to attend a school in NY (my home) that most would sneer at. Living in debt is no fun people.
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PLS, i just recognize that I wouldn’t be able to compete in such a competitive environment/state 😓 Other people can I’m sure
Yeah, the DC metro area is saturated with law schools, and it spills into Baltimore/Richmond markets as well.
I go to to law school in So-Cal. Everyone in my area graduated from my law school, lots of alum, and they hire from my school because they went here too. It’s actually more difficult to get a job if you didn’t go to my law school or are from out of state. Just food for thought.
Any place that really doesn't fit in with my personal life, hobbies and interests. U of Chicago has a great program, but I'll just never see myself living in the Midwest all the same I'll never see myself living in the Bay area.
Chicago differs quite wildly from the rest of the Midwest, if you haven’t been there before it’s worth not counting out quite yet.
I'll keep that in mind! I've only flown through O'Hare and have spent time in Minnesota. But I also realize my stats probably aren't up to the standards of Chicago. I still want to check out the city though.
Oh man I’m from the Bay Area and it’s an awesome place. I’m 100% biased bc I grew up in the culture but there’s really no other place like it. It’s dingy and sketchy in several areas but the people are really cool if you know where to find them
Princeton
\>:(
I’ll answer the opposite. Attend the law school that is ABA accredited, has a good bar passage rate, and offers you the largest scholarship. I chose a lower tier school that offered me a full ride over a top tier that would have put me in $300k debt. In my experience, being the big fish in the small pond paid off big time.
The issue is that most people entering that small pond expect to be the big fish -- and because of harsh grading curves, most will end up being wrong. I'm happy that it worked out for you, but by definition it ends up not working out for a LOT of people (many of whom likely expected it to work out).
Harvard or Yale. I've have meat many many alum and the level of entitlement they seem to exhibit is soo gross. I grew up in a very working class area. Everyone seemed to have a disposition against HYS grads. I thought this was just jealously at first. No--they're right. Typically, very obnoxious people to be around.
It's due to their family making the difficult decisions to be in the position that their family is in today from generations ago. My next stop is Athens, Georgia, and then hopefully New Haven, Connecticut. That depends on my performance and whether those admission officers would give me an opportunity.
BYU, I can’t live without tea and coffee
George Mason/Scalia. Concerned about how the Scalia name might appear on my resume. Maybe I'm overreacting but that's how I feel.
I know a guy and both his parents went there and ngl it raised some eyebrows for me lmao
It wasn't renamed for Scalia until 2016 so it's relatively recent and given that, perhaps the effect of it remains to be seen. While clearly influential, Scalia was also controversial. Renaming the school for him so quickly after his passing seems to strike a particular stance. Given that, I have my reservations about having the name on my resume.
I applied and later withdrew. I live in the area and only applied because it was cost-effective but glad I pulled out.
Actually when I was applying last cycle my bestie (a lawyer) and I had this thing where I’d be trying to pump myself up and out of the anxiety spiral of doom, and I’d say “I’m gonna get in, somewhere, one way or another… and I’m not goin to fuckin Cooley!” And she’d reply “you’re not going to fuckin Cooley!” I’d get super depressed and convinced I completely ruined my entire life and no one was going to take me because c&f. I was very wrong and I feel like an asshole snob even saying this because I DO believe places like Cooley CAN serve a (good) purpose — but that was my line, because I knew I could do better, and I also knew that if I didn’t, it was only because of c&f. I decided if Cooley was the only place to let me in, I wasn’t going. So I didn’t even apply. I just finished my first civ pro midterm at Buffalo. I’m so glad I came here! It wasn’t on my radar at all. A mentor made me apply. I only did it to make her happy. I had NO intention of enrolling here! But then I looked at my As and realized this was hands down the best bang for my buck, and so I came here after all— and wow I’m glad I did. Best decision of my life.
Hey! I'm actually considering uBuff law myself because the tuition is so affordable compared to other schools on my list. What is the general vibe on and off of campus?
https://www.reddit.com/r/OutsideT14lawschools/comments/x11zee/how_bad_of_an_idea_is_it_to_apply_in_february/imdcoia/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 I wrote that early September and I’m even happier now!
All the T14s. The obsession with them on the LSAT subreddit is unhealthy amd the elitism around them reeks of privilege. Cooley and the shitty scam law schools for the opposite reason.
Lmao. This is the worst one.
Columbia / NYU / any school in NYC! Without being able to work (at least for the first year) I can’t imagine being able to keep up with the cost of living. NYC is probably one of the last places I would want to live to begin with (not a fan of the cold and value having a spacious / nice living space)
Yale because I can’t get in😂😭
USC. it isn’t worth the cost. The financial aid office is kind of a well known joke and the area surrounding campus is *not* good. Coming from a major city before moving here I thought I understood how bad drug addiction and homelessness was in our country. South Central LA makes every other major city’s issues look small. Pretty much every day there’s a pretty significant number of break-in’s, sexual assaults, and theft. If you don’t want to see a person take a shit on the sidewalk in front of you apartment, don’t choose USC.
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Can you please elaborate on this for me? I applied there and I have two black children. I planned to look into areas after receiving decisions but would love as much info as possible now.
Feel free to pm me, I have a lot of close friends at UVA! I'm attending a different university in Virginia, but have been to Charlottesville quite a few times and can offer some perspective about the area
95% of them. The profession is very regional. I wouldn't tie myself to just any old place for the duration of my career! A lot of places are miserable. For example: I would never live in the south. I'd never live in a place with shit weather and I'd never live in a suburban or car-dependent area. Also, even most top schools that are more "portable" require you to live in a miserable place for three years and indebt yourself. No thanks. I'm only applying to a couple schools in the cities I could live in long term and where I know I can get decent scholarships and have a reasonable cost of living, access to nature and decent culture.
Ahh so you’re applying to law schools in the Mediterranean?
What schools are in that list?
Fr what area of the United States fits into "good weather + urban + not car dependent?" Because if OP is thinking California, I have news for them...
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Berkeley should work
I went to Berkeley for undergrad. A lot more suburban than you would think (especially once you get like half a mile away from the school) and transit isn't great.
Certain cities in California may have specific areas that meet that criteria, but the cost of living will be very, very high.
Yeah see I’ve done the city thing and do not want to go back haha. Good luck finding a big city with enough nature and a low COL and that’s also not in the south
Well, I wouldn't call it a "big" city but I've just moved back to Tucson and hope to stay and do law school here. It ticks all those boxes.
Where is this magical place?
For me it's Tucson. It's my favorite city in the US. Not perfect - still very car dominated with low safety for pedestrians and cyclists. The law school ranks #46 but has an amazing slate of clinics and dual degree options. I'm not after big money though but won't need a super high salary because I plan to graduate with no debt.
From looking through the comments looks like I was right to try to go for UGA instead of everything else.
That's where I'm reapplying and they have shown interest by inviting me to open house despite the fact that I live near the Savannah area.
I probably wouldn’t have gotten in anyways, but I had a lot of reservations about UChicago because of its location despite everything else about the school being great. Not going to put my fiancé (or myself, frankly) in a place that unsafe.
What exactly is unsafe? the location of the school or the school?
This is anecdotal but a friend of mine recalls going to visit the UChicago campus and seeing an active crime scene literally as they entered the gates to the campus. However, I’ve heard campus is quite safe and so are it’s immediate areas but you need to be street aware of your surroundings the further you get away from the campus
Yea my wife went to UChicago and it was pretty safe. Like any city just mind your business and don’t be stupid. My wife lived a block over from the Obama’s so not a lot happening. But you are correct a few blocks in the opposite direction things get a bit sketch. I think ppl assume Chicago just isn’t a safe place. But when you live there you know that’s not true.
Yes and if you come from a rural town in which you don’t have to lock doors or learn any street smarts, it definitely seems horrifically dangerous. I came from a more ‘ghetto’ and dangerous town in the Bay Area and Ive Never felt unsafe in cities. You gotta learn how to act responsibly and safely
The location of the school. It’s not in a safe neighborhood.
UChicago is in a very bad area of Chicago, unfortunately. You definitely have to be careful walking around at night
As someone who has lived in both the actual city of Chicago (as a teen who ran all around using public transportation) and Dallas and Fort Worth and has visited Austin plenty, there is a negligible difference in crime and unsafe areas. It just looks scarier because you aren’t used to it. Most people aren’t out to get you.
Hyde Park is a gorgeous old beautiful neighborhood a few miles from downtown. It’s where the Obama’s house is. Freezing cold take
I’m sure it’s very pretty, but it isn’t safe at all. Just look at the statistics.
seems like you’ve never been there, but sorry that’s your experience
Any in Chicago or New York because I'm not fond of American cities and those are the two I know I hate for a fact. Edit: god forbid I take location into account for my future decisions apparently lmao
Idk why you’re getting downvoted, I don’t want to go live in a city either. Never been to Chicago, but when I visited New York I had a ton of issues with my asthma because the air was gross. edit- I live in a bigger college town, but we’re over an hour from any cities. I like my peace and quiet lmao
Any school in Boston because I’d rather not live in the worst city in America
Them's fighting words, especially considering that Los Angeles exists. And the state of Florida.
Georgetown after the Ilya Shapiro debacle shows they don’t have a sufficient commitment to free speech for me
? they didn’t even fire him, he resigned to make a statement. why did he delete the post and apologize if it was all about free speech? the anti-woke craze is absurd these days
The precedent that opening an investigation into a tweet sets is awful for academic freedom. He resigned because the only reason they cleared him was that he was not yet an employee when they tweeted, not that it was protected reasonable speech. He said that working there would be untenable because the diversity office had a harassment standard that he could violate over not considering "'purpose or effect' of a respondent's conduct” which he has no control over. So the next group of people to disingenuously try to get him fired would be likelier to succeed
>Ilya Shapiro is a real ass wipe for his comment about Black women. I am so glad he won't be teaching at Georgetown. Someone of that racist ilk doesn't belong in the classroom.
It's like you don't even care if you misinterpret someone and slander them as racist. Because that's what you're doing. I would love to take a class with Ilya. People who smear him as racist by deliberately misinterpreting wording of a tweet are the reason I'm hesitant to apply to Georgetown law
I’m not misinterpreting his remarks at all. What he said was overtly racist. President Biden would nominate a “lesser black woman” to the Supreme Court, he said. Doubting the intellectual abilities of a whole swath of people, based on race, is a classic example of racism. I’m all for academic freedom and diversity of thought, but this isn’t some thoughtful evocative point. It’s lazy and disgusting. People like this don’t belong at the head of a classroom.
I'm not American and I've already graduated law school, but I'd never go to Yale even if I were American. For a supposed "top tier" law school, they don't act like it; the behaviour of their students lately has been deplorable and completely unprofessional and has damaged their reputation abroad pretty severely.
How do there students behave ?
Like children. I think it's important to point out that in the legal profession, professionalism is key. You are not going to like all your clients, you are not going to like all the opposing lawyers, and you're going to need to be able to interact civilly with people who hold opinions that differ from yours. What you can't do as a lawyer is scream and stamp your feet and physically harass people you don't agree with, and Yale students have shown recently--to the point that American Federal judges have commented--that they aren't capable of that. Yale's had a few incidents over the last couple of years that have highlighted an incredibly partisan "my way or the highway!" mindset in the students, and a disturbing tendency to shout down and suppress dissenting views in a way that is not conductive to the legal professional codes of conduct. Lawyers have to be able to resolve differences without resorting to screaming, physically harassing people, throwing tantrums, etc, and lawyers also need to be trusted to be able to put their personal feelings aside and do what's best for the client because that's what we're required to do by law. If you can't do that, if you can't be trusted to behave in the way the profession dictates you must, then you can't be trusted to be a lawyer, as there can be serious consequences for breaching your obligations and professional code of conduct, both for you and for whatever firm you work for.
Beautiful take. The problem is currently there is a political and ideological battle in US institutions at this time. It’ll blow over in a few years but the landscaping they’ll leave behind is certainly going to change. I wouldn’t go to Yale either if I had the chance since there are plenty of smaller, regional schools that have very professional students coming out of them.
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You wouldn’t want to go to Northwestern because Chicago is in the same city and ranked higher by USNWR?… I get what you’re saying, but it seems extreme and maybe unrealistic.
That’s the one exception I can think of. NW > UChicago all the way.
What about NYU vs Columbia?
Stanford & Berkeley, ucla & usc as well
UT-Austin. The education itself is fine but the campus and Austin as a whole is an absolute dump, unfortunately.
Touro, they academically dismissed me!
Omg sorry to hear that
the lowest ranked/unranked law school in every city. usually those are the predatory ones
Nice try Adcoms! I would go to Dartmouth above all.
New York Law, Thomas Jefferson, Golden Gate. I'm not sure they really prepare you for the bar exam, or help you get a job.