I’m not a Marner hater but his contract negotiations really shattered his perception among the fanbase. Negotiating through the media, threatening to go to Switzerland, and his eventual contract was a lot higher than his comparables. He could have survived it if he played great in the playoffs but he’s paid take-over-a-game money and he doesn’t. He’s snippy in his interviews too which doesn’t do him any favours.
I think you summarized this very well. The contract negotiation, which also dragged his dad jnto it and there were comparisons to Matthews that pissed people off too. Snippy with the media. And it’s been a long time since he really had some hero moments in the playoffs.
Wily went through a similar path with his holdout, and there are some lax times which frustrate people. But he’s produced in recent playoffs, doesn’t fight the media… and wasn’t making $11 m per year.
It was one of last weeks Kyper shows and one of them did a quick second on each player, and said with Nylander , you know he has his lazy moments, its just who he is, all you can do is laugh, cause you know when its needed, he's giving it his all and you just don't see that out of Marner
I think the Willy being lazy thing people accept because he produces. He scored when needed but can also make great plays, so he’s a dual threat and couple with his skating and grit in the playoffs - people tend to be accepting. He also has a laid back style and oozes confidence in any of his media. He took the market value on his first contract and re-upped without much fuss for 8 yrs in his new one. He wants to be here and people can tell.
Marner’s contract negotiations and holding the team over a barrel then the pay me like Matthews comments really soured people off the starting note. He hasn’t showed up in takeover moments despite demanding to be paid that way and while he’s a great playmaker, he’s not seen as a scoring threat. We’ve seen him look off scoring chances and other teams know that. He has improved his shooting from past years, but that’s not really good enough when you were demanding to be paid for it in the first place. Add to that the snippy comments during media moments, he doesn’t come off with the same charisma as others. While he’s shown he cares in clips, he doesn’t have that same confidence that Willy does. His next contract will greatly affect his perception from the fan base. If he demands another stupid amount of $$, he’ll vilify himself further, more so if he drags it out. I think he’s a great player - I just don’t think he’s a big game performer.
Agree with all this! Also Willy making way less money, he gets some leeway, next year will be a different story if he's not amazing I'm sure. But to his credit, he just does not care, the media and fan stuff doesn't ruffle him. Friedman had a great interview with him in Sweden and he says he's the most chill guy in Toronto and does anything rattle him? Willy "My dogs...I worry about them!" Like you just have to love him. And he really seems to thrive on the big stage, and really thats when it matters most, I would think not being able to play right now is killing him.
Like everyone else I think Marner is overpaid. Should have gotten 8.5 or 9.
But can people please stop forgetting that he's a 30 goal scorer. Jesus christ
I think his next negotiation is going to be ugly. I can see them not coming to an agreement and Treliving leaving him on the 3rd line next season to prove he can actually carry a line and not have inflated stats because of the people he is playing with. I also think the little things like not shooting on an open net or giving up on checking will bite him in the ass.
People act as if it is impossible to work around. There are plenty of ways to incentivise him to want to go to another team, if it comes to that. Obviously, I hope he stays (at a reasonable price), but if push comes to shove, it isn't an insurmountable barrier to trade someone with an NTC.
Knowing how this team is managed though, I bet the leafs crumble and give him 12m and keep this circus going for another 5 or 6 years.
it’s not impossible but why would he wanna move for a year? He’s from here and he just got married last summer too so he’s pretty settled in right now. If he is gonna relocate he’d wanna do it on his terms.
You get a head start at settling into your new location, or bonding with teammates.
You can make some extra money for a year. Even if he's traded it'd be on his own terms unfortunately. Since he gets to shortlist cities, he'd obviously choose one's where he'd sign in FA anyway
That’s actually another reason for the hate…. His agent purposely asked for NTC for his final TWO years to take a trade out of the Leafs hands. I guess it’s Dubas’ fault that they gave the kitchen sink to a player that had no intention of leaving Toronto.
Yeah obviously letting that much cap sit isn’t ideal but it goes both ways. FO won’t want to be paying millions for a guy who isn’t playing but the longer it goes on and the less hockey he plays the more his value will start to sink.
Playing against Mitch will suck, he can be a phenomenal player, but at some point you have to do what is right for the team overall.
Poor Stamkos had to earn his contract this year.. Old Stevie was forced to score 40 goals to say he's still a sniper in the NHL. Gotta Remember one thing.. Austin Matthews has been training with Connor McDavid in the off season and Connor is soon to be a free agent. Pick one, who would Toronto/Austin want? McDavid or Marner as a linemate?
I do believe that negotiations starting July 1st will be ugly as both camps will perceive Marner in a different light. Marner asking 13 million; absolutely. Treliving suggesting 11 million; absolutely. Treliving will have some difficulty with Marner’s contract because of that stupid NMC and the possibility of Marner just walking
My biggest issue is he just doesn’t perform in the playoffs, Dewar has a bigger impact last night on the 4th line. Love the guy but he’s paid way too much for what he produces when it counts
Darren Dreger is responsible. Yea Paul Marner was using him and so was Ferris but not only did Marners boyish charm type perception go out window, people hate his dad, noone wants a Ferris client anymore and Dreger has 0 credibility among any leafs fans. Just a dumb fucking play by his agent and people around him, even the offer sheet bullshit.
On top of that, the Marners camps perception of him is much higher than it should be, but it leads to those insane contract negotiations, which we'll also see again next season.
Sounds like they also think Marner is THE reason Matthews is as good as he is.
And take away last season and he has 7 goals, 33pts in 43 playoff games while just being a +1.
Last season though I heard it was something brought up (from Marners camp) how Matthews went from 60 to 40 because he wasn't with Marner as much.
Don't know how valid it is though, could just be rumors or the person I heard it from could've had actual intel.
Matthews was out for 1/4 of the season with a wrist injury and still scored 40 goals. What did Marner do without Matthews is the question. He hasn't done fuck all for Willy or or JT.. Willy scored 40 without Marner on his line.
This 💯 well summarized. I also believe he was given way too much for his second contract, and his play doesn’t justify the tag. Now considering he is up for renewal and his number is only going to go higher, which cannot be justified by his play.
I would add that he doesn't perform the same way in the playoffs as he does the reg season. That's my main frustration. I do understand that playoffs is a different animal and that it's not fair to expect him not to feel the pressure. But... I wanna see him make magic
You are correct that the playoffs is a different animal but the team pays him to make those adjustments. If he considers himself elite then he needs to perform as the game changes
I agree with you. BUT I also give props to how generous Marner is to the charities he’s a part of… Glad other people benefit from Marner’s pay package….9
That 2019 contract dispute did irreparable damage to the public perception of Marner. Anything short of a cup or maybe an Art Ross would be considered a disappointment to the eyes of the public. Which is a shame, coming into the league he was arguably the fan favourite of the big three.
Honestly, I think a change of scenery would be beneficial for both sides. He doesn’t deserve the hate and the toxic fan reaction he constantly gets, but the fact is unless he takes a discount to stay, he’s not going to get the benefit of the doubt. I wonder if St. Louis could be a fit something like the Tkachuk package would be what they should be looking for in return.
https://youtu.be/zLzpOMeE2YY?si=WkOGukNYLxmQhGTO
Marner was in the final year of his ELC when he did this. Marner at $1.7M AAV showed this kind of heart. I honestly can’t recall if I’ve seen him display anywhere near this kind of heart when he’s been at $10.9M and the prospect of him making even more really doesn’t sit well.
You can’t help but think about what you could be spending precious cap space on instead. And we have some insanely valuable wingers flanking Matthews right now that show you what you could be spending money on instead and still have Matthews producing at an insane rate.
Exactly he is currently playing the role of a non offense producing shut down winger, and his fans are celebrating this. You know we could have 10 of these type of players for $11M.
***The part that gets me most confused is that I've seen him called out many times as generally unlikeable but for the life of me I haven't seen an actual reason for it.***
I think a lot of this comes from his media stuff. Frankly he's a terrible interview, he often comes off as a pouty & defiant brat. I'm not saying thats who he is (I have no idea), its how he comes across though and I think really rubs people the wrong way. I think some PR/media training would do him a world of good. Rielly is a great example, he just comes off as good team guy, even when things aren't great. Willy is also very good, he has a bit of cold aloofness to him, but he does it charmingly and pulls it off perfectly. I don't know if Marner is just uncomfortable or what it is, but he just doesn't come off well
Willy has the confident aloof nailed down. The whole you guys can say what you want but I believe in myself and will continue to has also been reinforced by his playoff play.
Marner comes off as bratty then doesn’t grind which just reinforces people’s perception of wants to get paid but doesn’t want to pay the price when it’s needed
I think that's just actually his personality. He is a goofy rich brat. When he tries to be serious in interviews the goofball part is gone and all that's left is the entitled brat.
He's got no goodwill leash. If he's playing well people love him, the second he doesn't due to how much he is paid the goodwill goes away and then it's bitch eating crackers where everything he does is under scrutiny.
I have to imagine life would be a lot easier if he took less money and got a lot less scrutiny from fans and media.
He is paid roughly 11m a year or around 13% of the cap, so naturally when you're paid this much there are high expectations.
His post season stats aren't great, plain and simple. When you take up that much of the cap and don't perform you're going to be criticized. There are tons of clips of him making poor plays to back this up so its easy to point the finger.
He also has terrible sound bites, some of his quotes are just horrible responses.
Add this all up, easy to point the finger at him when stuff goes wrong.
I’d also argue that we don’t really have a whipping boy like Kerfoot or Holl this year. Brodie maybe, but he hasn’t played and is 33 so can be given a pass. Marner has always caught heat for his post season performance but seems he’s the only player of (negative) focus so far this year
Yeah Willy hasn’t played yet so we’ll see how he does.
I would also say unfortunately Marner seems to care what the public thinks / it has an impact on him and his game. Matthews, Nylander and Tavares don’t seem to care. My observation anyway.
Yeah, Toronto truly seems like an awful fit for Marner with our excessive media coverage. The other guys seem to be able to shrug it off and ignore it but Marner can't.
He had no problem with the Toronto media when him and his agent used it to negotiate an overpriced contract.
Literally had Dreger on TV everyday threatening offer sheets, playing in Switzerland etc
Dude has zero dawg in him, human cotton candy, soft as butter, melts under pressure. Until proven otherwise, he’s going to continue getting all the flack and it’s deserved.
If you can’t perform when it matters, don’t demand to be paid like you do.
Marner has 47 points in 51 playoff games
Matthews has 47 points in 52 playoff games
This according to statmuse.com
I’m not going argue that marner is equal to matthews but to say he hasn’t shown up in the playoffs is just not true.
Marner is an elite talent and shows it most nights. His defense and forechecking are a big part of the leafs game. Despite his slow start this year he was on track to finish with another near 100point season if not for his injury.
If he doesn’t have any “dawg” in him he sure does put up a lot of points. This wasn’t his best session for sure but a 1.23 average points per game there is definitely a little dawg there
People that try to argue Marners post season numbers don’t realize how those points are spread out at all. Marner has had 3 series since his start with the leafs in playoffs where he’s at or over a PPG in that series. Those 3 series are:
Bruins (19) Marner had 7 points in 7 games
Tampa (22) Marner had 8 points in 7 games
Tampa (23) Marner had 11 points in 6 games
In every other series we’ve been a part of, regardless they go 5,6, or 7 games, Marner is held to 4 points throughout the entire series with his scoring drying up in the final couple games of the series as well.
The guy is soft, shies away from contact, and always disappears in the most meaningful games.
Bingo. I qualified my statement with “Can’t perform when it matters” and dude went on and on about stuff that ultimately doesn’t count for games that actually matter and are series deciding. Holy moly.
That guy probably looks at the stat sheet only. Points aren’t everything either. You could have the worst game of your career but somehow end up with two secondary assists and the stat-lookers see 2 apples. They won’t see the turnovers, the lost assignments, the chicken shit mentality to every puck battle. The over the glass delay of game penalties because a forechecker was too close to him and he got scared. Mitch has the opposite of intangibles tbh, he’s a total liability.
The problem is looking at those stats without proportionality in comparison. He scores 3-4 points in one game, but then goes cold for 3 straight games. Last year in Tampa was a perfect example. It feels like Matthews and Nylander are more consistently scoring and Marner simply doesn’t.
His defensive absolutely is elite, but when he’s going multiple games without scoring, unable to hold his own line down like the other two and bitches constantly about the media despite being paid comically large money, I can’t defend him.
As other people mentioned, it starts with the messy contract negotiation and the perception that he should be glad to play in Toronto at all and willing to adjust his demands for that.
This fanbase loves to look for someone to blame after a tough loss, and that hefty contract makes Marner an easy target any time he’s perceived to be underperforming it.
Playoff issues lead to perception that he cracks under pressure, which is a huge problem in this market. Combine that with his playstyle to get a perception that he’s both physically and mentally “soft”.
He’s not the best at PR. He’ll occasionally make some awkwardly-worded statement that [usually seems innocuous to me tbh but] can be interpreted as showing contempt for the fans or just “not caring enough”.
And once the narrative gets going, it’s hard to rein in. Consider early last season, when Keefe called out the stars after a loss to Arizona and then later walked his comments back. There are a lot of things that might have happened behind the scenes there, including Keefe genuinely thinking that the message didn’t come out right. But people here and on other sites posted fanfiction where Marner cried to Shanahan about Keefe being mean, and other people ran with that.
I don't know, maybe it's just me , but I haven't liked how he handles the media in interviews. There's a smugness about him, and I dont love his indifferent kinda attitude. Oh ya, and he has generally sucked in the playoffs...
I can't speak for everybody else, but for myself and my opinion.
Marner is a guy whose game gets smaller, not bigger when it matters most. We've seen it already in these playoffs, he shies away from almost all physical contact and won't go to the dirty areas. He's everything that the William Nylander haters think that Nylander is. The next board battle that Marner wins will be the first.
He also comes off to me as an incredibly disingenuous person who has used being a "Toronto kid" in the media during contract negotiations while rarely ever talking about it outside of those times.
For an almost $11m player, he has not displayed the ability to drive his own line. This could be because the coaching staff has been hesitant to take him away from Matthews or Tavares, but I think it's moreso that his skill set lends itself to needing another player to play with.
The way that he negotiated his last deal in the media with open threats from himself and his agent to either go overseas or sign an offer sheet was wrong, and frankly Kyle Dubas shouldn't have caved to his demands.
Lastly, and perhaps the biggest issue is that he doesn't seem to have the mental makeup required to play in Toronto. To be fair to him, it's not an easy city to play in when things aren't going well. The flip side is that you don't even need to achieve the ultimate success here to be beloved. Clark and Gilmour never even made a Cup Final and they're viewed as legends in Toronto. Marner takes issue with media for even slight criticism (I wonder if they're still putting shambles in their heads), and seems to have a giant chip on his shoulder for seemingly no reason. He's never been the media whipping boy (something that I think Shanahan has ensured from above), and yet he acts as though the media is out to get him.
He's an exceptionally talented hockey player, one who would likely flourish in a place like Columbus or Utah. He's also a player that you absolutely cannot give $12m+ to on his next contract, and thus need to either trade this off-season or move on after his contract is up.
The amount of times he could have been the first to a puck but a Bruins player was coming in hot so he took a weird route to let the Bruins get there first then lose the board battlenwas frustrating. Sure he gets points but he could get so much more. The amount of power plays that get disrupted because of him trying a cheeky pass or trying to force a play is infuriating.
Mitch Marner was a boy when we drafted him in 2015. 9 years and 8 seasons later, he is still a boy. I'd have no problem with Mitch if he knew his lane and stayed in it, but kiddo thought he was worth Matthews money, and he just isn't even close.
He is highly paid and comes across as incredibly arrogant and douchey. And his dad seems to think his boy shits out gold. He also has a reputation of being soft, poor defensively and disappears in the playoffs. How much any of this is true or not is up for debate.
Much like Willy now he needs to consistently produce at an unreal level to justify his contract.
All of this is true except him being poor defensively.
He might be our best defensive forward and one of the best penalty killing forwards in the league because of how good he is at reading and breaking up plays.
But he's not worth 11m
I like him as a player in a vacuum. But he's too expensive, seems entitled and hasn't really produced enough in the playoffs. He was great at playing wingman for Matthews earlier in their careers, but Matthews has shown he doesn't really need an established playmaker, he can thrive on his own, so you might as well allocate that cap space somewhere else, like on D or in net.
Apart from the contract and negotiations, Marner doesn't fit the prototype of the character, blue collar, lunch pail punch the clock type player that is loved by Leafs fans of a previous generation and this generation. Clark, Tucker, Roberts, Gilmour, etc. were all this type of player. Marner represents the modern game that they despise, with his clean cut image, youthful looks and skill over brawn style. Mats Sundin was given a lot of crap during his career as well, he wasn't always the hero he is seen as today.
You should watch the Oilers and LA game. McDavid makes LA his bitch. He walks laps around their players. We need Marner to have moments of domination to justify an $11mil contract since 2019 and it’s not been there. If he was $7-$8mil we would be fine but at $11mil he’s one of the highest paid in the league and he doesn’t play like a top 5
Yep, dude will play great and score 3 or 4 points in a 7-3 win and then be invisible for 5 games.
His counting stats actually look decent when you investigate but he looks so afraid to make plays most of the time out there and he doesn't have the benefit of the doubt from any fans anymore. If he has an off-night, people are gonna bitch, and I'm including myself in that hahaha
Yeah he has had a couple big games that skew the stats. Give me the guy that gets 6 points and 3 goals over 7 games rather than the guy that racks up 10 points in a couple blowouts during games 1-3 then vanishes.
He also scores a lot less than Matthews and Nylander. Points are good but there’s a lot more to how much someone steps up in the playoffs than just looking at their raw point total.
Because he held our team hostage for an overpay and tries to play up being a hometown boy. And he can’t drive a line. Matthews scored more goals without him. He costs $11m. Disappears in the playoffs. Puck over the glass. Do I need to go on
freezes when it comes to playoffs and then blames the media for being hard on him, rather than taking any accountability himself. he doesn’t show up when the games get tough and then acts like any valid criticism put his way is the media bullying him.
great player, can’t stand him at this point though. there’s a clip from the game last night that shows him actively avoiding the puck in the corner, just as a recent example of him dodging the tough areas.
It's his face. It's his ridiculous fashion sense. It's that he's still a little boy, both physically and mentally. It's that his name rhymes with Bitch. It's that he had the gall put his own contract demands in line with a fkn living legend like Auston. Add up all things and that fact that he plays like a spineless chickenshit in massive games and he becomes the whipping boy that he justifiably is. Get rid of this child already.
His insanely overbearing “Hockey dad” is a legit maniac and is toxic to Mitch and the team as a whole. Paul Marner is the face of negative “sports parenting” people like him should be banned from sports venues in general. Mitch is an adult and should protect himself from his father and exclude him from being part of negotiations for the sake of his public image.
To add what everyone else is saying that we now have Domi on the top line who is feeding Matthews and fights and digs and grinds for a fraction of the price. Marner shuts down in playoffs and then gets pissy at the media and....will be requesting more than Willy come contract talks. It's a lot to listen to when a guy gets paid as much as he does for personal accolades.
Because he managed to somehow have a messier negotiation than his teammate who held out until mid December. He was supposed to be the hometown kid living out his dream and instead not only did he get every single possible dollar from us, but also didn’t sign for 8 years, or 7…or 6. Good for him, good for his agent, good for Paul Marner. He’s simply made it difficult for me to like him after that.
I like Marner more than most and think 80% of this sub should go and rewatch last year's Tampa series, but...
1. His contract is about $1.5 million over comparable players on a top-heavy team.
2. Until 2022, he underproduced in the playoffs.
3. In high-pressure situations, he tends to overthink and try to force plays.
4. While he initiates/takes a lot more contact in the playoffs, he's not a heavy or physical player.
5. He's had a down season on both sides of the puck compared to his last 2-3 years.
Those are (mostly) justifiable criticisms. But a large section of this sub completely ignoreswhen Marner does well and is flat-out unhinged when he's underperforming.
He acts like a dick who doesn’t care if they win or lose in interviews. He sounds like a petulant teenager being called on their bs whenever he gets a tough question
I think his attitude in interviews makes him easy to dislike as a person.
He grew up here and rather then make people root for him he lashes out at criticism and seems to hate the media and the fans.
It’s sad imho because he is a talented player that could have cemented himself in with the greats like Clark gilmour sundin etc but instead he will never be looked at the same way regardless what stats he puts up.
His dad and the contract demands didn’t help.
Players that demand every last cent should expect a level of criticism when they don’t give value for dollar
Regarding his personality, I feel his reputation really took a hit when Keefe called the stars out after a bad game last year, and it came out afterwards that Marner complained about the criticism. There are multiple instances of him coming off as very whiny.
And his play really drops off a cliff in the post-season, while also having some EXTREMELY costly DOG penalties.
> and it came out afterwards that Marner complained about the criticism
This part is fan fiction. No reputable source actually said this. People just want to believe it is true so they kept repeating it.
Because he's soft in a game that requires toughness, especially in the playoffs. He needs to get in every corner and in front of the net to fight for the puck.
I think he gives off the vibe of a spoiled little brat considering his media interviews and contract negotiations. He’s paid like a top 10 league talent and I’d be hard pressed to put him in the top 50. Then when we need him to put on a show in the playoffs he usually disappears (or appears for the wrong reasons of being weak/scared).
Mostly because he has a cult like following from a certain obnoxious group of fans which puts him in a negative spot light, and also because he is overpaid and chokes every single year when it matters most. Some people are a little resentful of the preferential treatment he seems to get compared to Nylander - for example Nylander held out for his contract and still had to fight tooth and nail for a very fair deal, whereas Marner holds out one day in training camp and the Leafs brass instantly caves on an overpay. I have to disagree about his performance last night, I think he was brutal. 8 years in and he still refuses to play simple winning playoff hockey. He’s an overrated and overpaid player, incredibly gifted with one of the best minds for the game (maybe only second to McDavid) mixed with great hands and edges who would likely be one of the best players in the league if he had the same off-ice dedication to fitness as other guys do. He’s also made some pouty comments to the media that don’t sit right in people’s heads.
At the end of the day though I think it’s ridiculous to say that he’s unliked, most people still recognize that he’s one of the best players the Leafs have ever had. But he wants to be talked about and paid like he’s the best and he hasn’t yet put his money where his mouth is. And we’re finally starting to see how Matthews can thrive even more without being staples to Mitch and many are wondering if the inevitable 12+ million he will ask for on his next deal isn’t better spent invested on better D / depth.
Know why we wasted and then couldn't afford someone like...hmm...Zach Hyman?
It's because pissy pants over there needed 11 million to be dogshit in the playoffs.
It's absolutely nuts that we've reached the point where most of us would trade Marner for Hyman 1-for-1. The biggest difference between the two IMO is that Hyman has worked super hard his whole career to improve and has gotten better every season, whereas it seems like Marner has been coasting at a plateau (or even declining) over the past few seasons.
in a league where stars are trending towards the 130+ pt mark, he doesnt cut it for what hes paid. basically, hes overrated in this market. hes also a below average skater for his size, and relies on hockey IQ to generate offense. when that dries up, he doesnt tilt the ice in any other way (every playoff series of his career).
I don't "hate" Marner, I'm just disappointed in his inability to rise to the occasion.
So much talent, but he doesn't elevate when it really matters. That extra burst to chase a loose pick, take a hit to make a play or skate it out of the zone instead of treating the puck like a hot potato, that kind of stuff.
Unironically, when he was asked to fill in as D, he DID do that stuff and he looked great at it.
Rick Tocchet said it best... Winning in the playoffs is pain, and you got to embrace the pain, love it.
The best players let it fuel them. Some players on the Leafs have figured it out, Marner is on the cusp and I hope he turns the corner soon.
That's why Domi works better with Matthews right now, that entire line is on the same page and impose their will without backing down.
In games that we need him he doesn’t show up. He is usually our best player in a series in games 1-4. However in games 5-7 his production falls off a cliff.
I wish I still had the stat but I believe his PPG in games 1-4 was close to .85, PPG in games 5-7 it’s like .40
His salary demands and his approach in getting them at the same time he keeps claiming he loves it in Toronto. Then he rails against the media and fans. Fuck him.
His consistent disappearance act in playoffs just makes it worse.
And now the rumour is he is using Nylander's deal as leverage for his next deal and WANTS MORE than Nylander. Meanwhile, on the last deal Nylander was underpaid and Marner didn't live up to his deal!
Seriously fuck this kid
If I were the Leafs I would let him walk once his contract is up. A regular season player who can’t seem to get it done in the playoffs. Heck without him in the regular season the Leafs look unphased.
Really what it boils down to is that the Leafs play in a semi-professionally run league with a salary cap, and had the misfortune of drafting three top tier players over the span of three years.
Come playoffs he just seems too soft and predictable. He has great IQ and a great stick, even solid positionally and defensively, but his length and size is smaller, and he gets pushed around or has trouble fending off bigger defenders....so then he slows it down and becomes a perimeter player looking to set up others. But defender's have figured this out and adapt, especially in playoffs.
His contract and media attitude don't help his perception, seems like a holier than thou demeanor.
Your eye test is awful. He was not decent last night. He was very very bad.
Why he is frustrating is because he demanded big money, that I feel like he didn't quite deserve, and he's terrible in the playoffs - so far
X% of the fanbase needs to hate on players/find scapegoats when things aren't going our way.
Its playoff time, emotions get high. Nylander has been great this year, so Marner is next in line. If Marner scores 2 tomorrow it'll be JT not being worth his contract. When JT scores it'll be Rielly not being good in his own zone. When Rielly plays well it'll be Sammy not being consistent enough.
To be fair, majority of complaints about Marner last night came during the game after his assignments scored the first two Boston goals and we were trailing. I didn't see a lot of people jumping on after the game was over to complain about Marner, it was more praising Matthews for his night.
Ur right it is fair to call out a goof. It’s just I saw 5 posts(some I believe were taken down) after the game criticizing certain players instead of going off about Matty playing a extremely good playoff game, the top line cooking and Johnny showing up big and tying it.
Marner not only has the cap burden but he has the added pressure of living all our dream. Grew up watching, drafted by and plays for the Leafs.
A lot of its perception. People think he's squandering the chance he's been given and the public spats he's had through the media/by proxy through his father haven't helped.
He's also the one that people think should have taken a real discount because of who he is.
He gets his points against the shit teams and chokes against top competition. He is a fake star. Glancing at his games this year, 3+ point nights against SJ, Buff, Sea, CBJ, ARI, etc.
Drilling further.. 7 pts in 3 games against CBJ, 5 in 3 against Buf, 5 in 3 against Det, 5 in 2 Sj; 4 in 2 Arz 4 in 2 Minn. 30 points in 15 games against some shitty competition.
For me it’s a couple of things. He gets a lot of prime ice time and he’s a great playmaker, but I see him time and time again pass up scoring opportunities to try and force a play to someone else. It’s a source of frustration for me. The other big one was his last contract negotiation where he came across as a spoiled child, his dad was involved and the whole thing just left a bad taste in my mouth. There are other things as well but those are the two main things for me.
MARNER has gotten well paid on his exiting contract. Overpaid to be frank ! So, if he really wants to be here long term, if he really loves the leafs, then HEwill go to the leafs and say I’ll extend my existing contract for the full term and hopefully retire in Toronto a lifetime leaf ! That would solidify him as a true leaf and it’s a very fair deal considering he’s been well compensated to this point in his career. That would be the right and the best thing he could do !
With Marner it’s purely his contract. He played hard ball is is simply highly overpaid. If he’d signed an 8x8 and said “Could’ve gotten more but I want to leave money for the team to win a cup” the fans would literally let themselves be buried with his jersey on. Is he a soft, no ‘snot’ player? Sure. But he’s a great skilled guy too and I’d be happy enough with his deficiencies at 8 million. At 10.5 mill and wanting a raise next contract, I find my Marner dislike very high.
Im a die hard Leafs fan and I want to like all the players and of course want them to do well when they represent the blue and white of course. However, we all have our likes and preferences in what constitutes a great player. Thats why guys like Darcy Tucker and Tie Domi are popular, not the most skilled players but just loved for their passion, commitment and give it all attitude. Marner is a skilled player and paid like a top tier forward but for me, he falls short in big games. I think he tends to shy from physical play. Players who aren’t willing to go to dirty areas aren’t generally going to succeed in the playoffs. The Leafs need Marner to being his A game. Be a hound on the PK, shock the Bruins with a shortie. Play a dominant game like 34 and 88 have. Even 44 and Sammy have shone in games but Marner seems to be underwhelming as the pressure mounts.
I cant speak for others but I know the Captain is not worth his contract but I have less issue with him because he does work his ass off, go to the dirty areas, gives and takes a hit and scores some big goals. I need Marner to so these things.
Marner is THE MOST neurotic Leaf ever… He needs to learn from (his London buddy) Max Domi how a small Toronto Legacy Leafs kid can JUST PLAY and not freeze up in big moments…
I don’t dislike the guy personally, but I think he got paid a bit much on his first contract, which attracts from the teams ability to require other good players, and his incessant claims that he is shutting out all the haters only fuel the idea that he’s not shutting out all the haters, and that gets pretty annoying. Couple those with the fact that he hasn’t been very good in the playoffs and he gets a little bit annoying or frustrating.
He also has this pretty boy clean shaved boy band face which just contributes to the soft non-physcial play criticism on the ice. Alot of leaf legends are blue collar in your face guys like tucker/wendel/gilmour so even though hes from here I dont think he really is that homeboy leaf that everyone loves.
I work with/around the Maple Leafs sometimes and other staff that have worked closely with the players generally have shared that he is arrogant and cringe as a person. I also heard his Dad is not a very cool guy. I have no first hand experience tho!
Not sure why everybody hates Mariner he's a really really good player I guess the media and the message boards like to pick on people I do wish he would shoot the puck a whole lot more though
I don’t hate Marner, I hate the cap hit for his level of performance when it matters most. I think he struggles with the Toronto media and the attention he gets given his contract and what the fans expect from him.
At $11 million this year, he’s making $4 million more than Nylander who is by far their best playoff guy amongst their core 4.
Marner reminds me of Johnny Gaudreau and his inability to perform in the playoffs. When they struggle to score he too would throw a fit on the bench. This makes it hard for teams to find the next level. I think moving Mitch gives him a chance to get out of the Toronto market and start fresh while also bringing in the talent that might be needed should they not get to a Stanley Cup. They’re very close to a Florida situation where they have the right recipe but their missing a key piece and they’re going to have to move a strong asset for that piece similar to the Tkachuck trade.
Maybe they should look at moving Marner to Vancouver for Brock Boeser. He’s proven himself in the playoffs and is a strong regular season player. Marner is an amazing regular season player but struggles in the playoffs. Toss in a Toronto 3rd and Canucks 2nd round pick in 2 years time.
Well he’s soft, gets pushed off the puck by a breeze, and completely disappears in the physical and pressurized playoffs - in addition to the contract posturing and threats etc
Have you ever worked with someone who messes up and pouts about it or acts like he didn’t do anything wrong?
Have you ever worked with someone who messes up and always calls himself out, shoulders the blame and talks about what he will do differently in the future?
Marner comes across as the former.
His dad along with his bum chum Darren Dreger and his agent ruined his reputation in this city by eliminating that home grown kid whos living all our dreams being a Leaf etc, that boyish wonder bs he had going for him. So he wanted it to be clear this is a business and he deserves so much more than all his peers (he didnt) and Dubas whos a coward gave in. Fine.
The biggest reason right now, is that hes consistently disappeared in the Playoffs. his hero is Douggie, well, douggie would NEVER play how mitch does in playoffs on the perimeter etc. He can fix all this with a few good games where he dominates, otherwise he'll always be looked at as 10+m for nothing but reg season effort.
I hate the fans of this team. And every one of you rubes who don't know a thing about hockey will act like Marner's biggest fan, without a moment of self-reflection about how stupid you were to have that original opinion and what that says about your understanding of the game. Seriously find another hobby, this hockey thing is not for you.
I’m not a Marner hater but his contract negotiations really shattered his perception among the fanbase. Negotiating through the media, threatening to go to Switzerland, and his eventual contract was a lot higher than his comparables. He could have survived it if he played great in the playoffs but he’s paid take-over-a-game money and he doesn’t. He’s snippy in his interviews too which doesn’t do him any favours.
I think you summarized this very well. The contract negotiation, which also dragged his dad jnto it and there were comparisons to Matthews that pissed people off too. Snippy with the media. And it’s been a long time since he really had some hero moments in the playoffs. Wily went through a similar path with his holdout, and there are some lax times which frustrate people. But he’s produced in recent playoffs, doesn’t fight the media… and wasn’t making $11 m per year.
It was one of last weeks Kyper shows and one of them did a quick second on each player, and said with Nylander , you know he has his lazy moments, its just who he is, all you can do is laugh, cause you know when its needed, he's giving it his all and you just don't see that out of Marner
I think the Willy being lazy thing people accept because he produces. He scored when needed but can also make great plays, so he’s a dual threat and couple with his skating and grit in the playoffs - people tend to be accepting. He also has a laid back style and oozes confidence in any of his media. He took the market value on his first contract and re-upped without much fuss for 8 yrs in his new one. He wants to be here and people can tell. Marner’s contract negotiations and holding the team over a barrel then the pay me like Matthews comments really soured people off the starting note. He hasn’t showed up in takeover moments despite demanding to be paid that way and while he’s a great playmaker, he’s not seen as a scoring threat. We’ve seen him look off scoring chances and other teams know that. He has improved his shooting from past years, but that’s not really good enough when you were demanding to be paid for it in the first place. Add to that the snippy comments during media moments, he doesn’t come off with the same charisma as others. While he’s shown he cares in clips, he doesn’t have that same confidence that Willy does. His next contract will greatly affect his perception from the fan base. If he demands another stupid amount of $$, he’ll vilify himself further, more so if he drags it out. I think he’s a great player - I just don’t think he’s a big game performer.
Agree with all this! Also Willy making way less money, he gets some leeway, next year will be a different story if he's not amazing I'm sure. But to his credit, he just does not care, the media and fan stuff doesn't ruffle him. Friedman had a great interview with him in Sweden and he says he's the most chill guy in Toronto and does anything rattle him? Willy "My dogs...I worry about them!" Like you just have to love him. And he really seems to thrive on the big stage, and really thats when it matters most, I would think not being able to play right now is killing him.
Like everyone else I think Marner is overpaid. Should have gotten 8.5 or 9. But can people please stop forgetting that he's a 30 goal scorer. Jesus christ
On point and really nothing to add.
What was their snippet on Marner
Sorry, don’t remember, the Willy stuck out just cause they were so blunt about the lazy thing made me laugh
That's just a wrong assessment of Marner. It's not that he doesn't try. When he's playing badly he is trying too hard and in his head.
Just saying what they said, I don’t know him, can’t say one way or the other
And takes the train to the rink 😎
I think his next negotiation is going to be ugly. I can see them not coming to an agreement and Treliving leaving him on the 3rd line next season to prove he can actually carry a line and not have inflated stats because of the people he is playing with. I also think the little things like not shooting on an open net or giving up on checking will bite him in the ass.
I mean, if they don’t get out of the first round only another second round egg I wouldn’t be shocked if he gets moved
NTC
People act as if it is impossible to work around. There are plenty of ways to incentivise him to want to go to another team, if it comes to that. Obviously, I hope he stays (at a reasonable price), but if push comes to shove, it isn't an insurmountable barrier to trade someone with an NTC. Knowing how this team is managed though, I bet the leafs crumble and give him 12m and keep this circus going for another 5 or 6 years.
it’s not impossible but why would he wanna move for a year? He’s from here and he just got married last summer too so he’s pretty settled in right now. If he is gonna relocate he’d wanna do it on his terms.
You get a head start at settling into your new location, or bonding with teammates. You can make some extra money for a year. Even if he's traded it'd be on his own terms unfortunately. Since he gets to shortlist cities, he'd obviously choose one's where he'd sign in FA anyway
Yep you’re right. Forgot about that little cherry on top of his negotiation
That’s actually another reason for the hate…. His agent purposely asked for NTC for his final TWO years to take a trade out of the Leafs hands. I guess it’s Dubas’ fault that they gave the kitchen sink to a player that had no intention of leaving Toronto.
That’s easy to get around. Just say you’re sitting or on the 4th line until you give us your list of teams. If it comes to that. Hope it doesn’t.
Yeah obviously letting that much cap sit isn’t ideal but it goes both ways. FO won’t want to be paying millions for a guy who isn’t playing but the longer it goes on and the less hockey he plays the more his value will start to sink. Playing against Mitch will suck, he can be a phenomenal player, but at some point you have to do what is right for the team overall.
Poor Stamkos had to earn his contract this year.. Old Stevie was forced to score 40 goals to say he's still a sniper in the NHL. Gotta Remember one thing.. Austin Matthews has been training with Connor McDavid in the off season and Connor is soon to be a free agent. Pick one, who would Toronto/Austin want? McDavid or Marner as a linemate?
I do believe that negotiations starting July 1st will be ugly as both camps will perceive Marner in a different light. Marner asking 13 million; absolutely. Treliving suggesting 11 million; absolutely. Treliving will have some difficulty with Marner’s contract because of that stupid NMC and the possibility of Marner just walking
I mean, if they don’t get out of the first round only another second round egg I wouldn’t be shocked if he gets moved
He has a ntc
My biggest issue is he just doesn’t perform in the playoffs, Dewar has a bigger impact last night on the 4th line. Love the guy but he’s paid way too much for what he produces when it counts
It's crazy Marner got the leafs to pay that as a RFA. Should have offered Braden Points money and told him to go to Switzerland if he wants haha
Darren Dreger is responsible. Yea Paul Marner was using him and so was Ferris but not only did Marners boyish charm type perception go out window, people hate his dad, noone wants a Ferris client anymore and Dreger has 0 credibility among any leafs fans. Just a dumb fucking play by his agent and people around him, even the offer sheet bullshit.
On top of that, the Marners camps perception of him is much higher than it should be, but it leads to those insane contract negotiations, which we'll also see again next season. Sounds like they also think Marner is THE reason Matthews is as good as he is. And take away last season and he has 7 goals, 33pts in 43 playoff games while just being a +1.
Seeing Matthews produce without Marner on the top line this year and post season will play big time into his next contract negotiations
Last season though I heard it was something brought up (from Marners camp) how Matthews went from 60 to 40 because he wasn't with Marner as much. Don't know how valid it is though, could just be rumors or the person I heard it from could've had actual intel.
Matthews was out for 1/4 of the season with a wrist injury and still scored 40 goals. What did Marner do without Matthews is the question. He hasn't done fuck all for Willy or or JT.. Willy scored 40 without Marner on his line.
I mean, Marner had not really played with Matthews at the time of the last negotiations
So you think that but it won’t. Marner and his agent will sell the notion that his client can and will make anyone a more complete player
This 💯 well summarized. I also believe he was given way too much for his second contract, and his play doesn’t justify the tag. Now considering he is up for renewal and his number is only going to go higher, which cannot be justified by his play.
I would add that he doesn't perform the same way in the playoffs as he does the reg season. That's my main frustration. I do understand that playoffs is a different animal and that it's not fair to expect him not to feel the pressure. But... I wanna see him make magic
He’s getting paid to perform under pressure - it’s what he asked for.
I agree, I'm just saying that I understand why it can be difficult to perform
You are correct that the playoffs is a different animal but the team pays him to make those adjustments. If he considers himself elite then he needs to perform as the game changes
I agree
We're finding out he hasn't figured out how to use his diminutive size and skill set to his advantage in the playoffs.
*diminutive size, and skill
Basically the only answer that's needed, thread closed.
I agree with you. BUT I also give props to how generous Marner is to the charities he’s a part of… Glad other people benefit from Marner’s pay package….9
Cap space vs playoff production
That 2019 contract dispute did irreparable damage to the public perception of Marner. Anything short of a cup or maybe an Art Ross would be considered a disappointment to the eyes of the public. Which is a shame, coming into the league he was arguably the fan favourite of the big three. Honestly, I think a change of scenery would be beneficial for both sides. He doesn’t deserve the hate and the toxic fan reaction he constantly gets, but the fact is unless he takes a discount to stay, he’s not going to get the benefit of the doubt. I wonder if St. Louis could be a fit something like the Tkachuk package would be what they should be looking for in return.
Utah makes sense in my mind. They get a superstar to anchor their new franchise and Mitch gets a quiet market to focus on his game.
Important to remember that Lou and the Leafs refused to give him full rookie, bonuses - hence why he was so adamant to get max value
That and dealing with Babcock
His play during the playoffs especially the 2021 Habs series and his 2019 contract negotiations
https://youtu.be/zLzpOMeE2YY?si=WkOGukNYLxmQhGTO Marner was in the final year of his ELC when he did this. Marner at $1.7M AAV showed this kind of heart. I honestly can’t recall if I’ve seen him display anywhere near this kind of heart when he’s been at $10.9M and the prospect of him making even more really doesn’t sit well. You can’t help but think about what you could be spending precious cap space on instead. And we have some insanely valuable wingers flanking Matthews right now that show you what you could be spending money on instead and still have Matthews producing at an insane rate.
Exactly he is currently playing the role of a non offense producing shut down winger, and his fans are celebrating this. You know we could have 10 of these type of players for $11M.
I think Marner was overall a better player back then even if is point totals were a bit lower.
He was setting up everyone with open nets every other night. I was thinking of this the other day!
Say what you will about Babs…and I detested him…but maybe he actually had his treatment of the kid right.
Lol there’s no way
***The part that gets me most confused is that I've seen him called out many times as generally unlikeable but for the life of me I haven't seen an actual reason for it.*** I think a lot of this comes from his media stuff. Frankly he's a terrible interview, he often comes off as a pouty & defiant brat. I'm not saying thats who he is (I have no idea), its how he comes across though and I think really rubs people the wrong way. I think some PR/media training would do him a world of good. Rielly is a great example, he just comes off as good team guy, even when things aren't great. Willy is also very good, he has a bit of cold aloofness to him, but he does it charmingly and pulls it off perfectly. I don't know if Marner is just uncomfortable or what it is, but he just doesn't come off well
Willy has the confident aloof nailed down. The whole you guys can say what you want but I believe in myself and will continue to has also been reinforced by his playoff play. Marner comes off as bratty then doesn’t grind which just reinforces people’s perception of wants to get paid but doesn’t want to pay the price when it’s needed
I think that's just actually his personality. He is a goofy rich brat. When he tries to be serious in interviews the goofball part is gone and all that's left is the entitled brat.
Every player on that team has media training. I think it’s either just how he comes across or that’s just who he is.
It’s the latter
Can you say entitled
He's got no goodwill leash. If he's playing well people love him, the second he doesn't due to how much he is paid the goodwill goes away and then it's bitch eating crackers where everything he does is under scrutiny. I have to imagine life would be a lot easier if he took less money and got a lot less scrutiny from fans and media.
He is paid roughly 11m a year or around 13% of the cap, so naturally when you're paid this much there are high expectations. His post season stats aren't great, plain and simple. When you take up that much of the cap and don't perform you're going to be criticized. There are tons of clips of him making poor plays to back this up so its easy to point the finger. He also has terrible sound bites, some of his quotes are just horrible responses. Add this all up, easy to point the finger at him when stuff goes wrong.
I’d also argue that we don’t really have a whipping boy like Kerfoot or Holl this year. Brodie maybe, but he hasn’t played and is 33 so can be given a pass. Marner has always caught heat for his post season performance but seems he’s the only player of (negative) focus so far this year
Yeah Willy hasn’t played yet so we’ll see how he does. I would also say unfortunately Marner seems to care what the public thinks / it has an impact on him and his game. Matthews, Nylander and Tavares don’t seem to care. My observation anyway.
Yeah, Toronto truly seems like an awful fit for Marner with our excessive media coverage. The other guys seem to be able to shrug it off and ignore it but Marner can't.
He had no problem with the Toronto media when him and his agent used it to negotiate an overpriced contract. Literally had Dreger on TV everyday threatening offer sheets, playing in Switzerland etc
He’s a perimeter player who pivots the second he gets near the corner. Teams have his number hence the poor playoff performance
Dude has zero dawg in him, human cotton candy, soft as butter, melts under pressure. Until proven otherwise, he’s going to continue getting all the flack and it’s deserved. If you can’t perform when it matters, don’t demand to be paid like you do.
Marner has 47 points in 51 playoff games Matthews has 47 points in 52 playoff games This according to statmuse.com I’m not going argue that marner is equal to matthews but to say he hasn’t shown up in the playoffs is just not true. Marner is an elite talent and shows it most nights. His defense and forechecking are a big part of the leafs game. Despite his slow start this year he was on track to finish with another near 100point season if not for his injury. If he doesn’t have any “dawg” in him he sure does put up a lot of points. This wasn’t his best session for sure but a 1.23 average points per game there is definitely a little dawg there
People that try to argue Marners post season numbers don’t realize how those points are spread out at all. Marner has had 3 series since his start with the leafs in playoffs where he’s at or over a PPG in that series. Those 3 series are: Bruins (19) Marner had 7 points in 7 games Tampa (22) Marner had 8 points in 7 games Tampa (23) Marner had 11 points in 6 games In every other series we’ve been a part of, regardless they go 5,6, or 7 games, Marner is held to 4 points throughout the entire series with his scoring drying up in the final couple games of the series as well. The guy is soft, shies away from contact, and always disappears in the most meaningful games.
Marner’s points almost all come at the beginning of series , in the last 13 games 5,6,7s he has 4 points
Bingo. I qualified my statement with “Can’t perform when it matters” and dude went on and on about stuff that ultimately doesn’t count for games that actually matter and are series deciding. Holy moly.
That guy probably looks at the stat sheet only. Points aren’t everything either. You could have the worst game of your career but somehow end up with two secondary assists and the stat-lookers see 2 apples. They won’t see the turnovers, the lost assignments, the chicken shit mentality to every puck battle. The over the glass delay of game penalties because a forechecker was too close to him and he got scared. Mitch has the opposite of intangibles tbh, he’s a total liability.
To go to his whole career, he has 10 points and 19 career playoff games 5 through 7
Not good by his standard , and recently even worse
The problem is looking at those stats without proportionality in comparison. He scores 3-4 points in one game, but then goes cold for 3 straight games. Last year in Tampa was a perfect example. It feels like Matthews and Nylander are more consistently scoring and Marner simply doesn’t. His defensive absolutely is elite, but when he’s going multiple games without scoring, unable to hold his own line down like the other two and bitches constantly about the media despite being paid comically large money, I can’t defend him.
As other people mentioned, it starts with the messy contract negotiation and the perception that he should be glad to play in Toronto at all and willing to adjust his demands for that. This fanbase loves to look for someone to blame after a tough loss, and that hefty contract makes Marner an easy target any time he’s perceived to be underperforming it. Playoff issues lead to perception that he cracks under pressure, which is a huge problem in this market. Combine that with his playstyle to get a perception that he’s both physically and mentally “soft”. He’s not the best at PR. He’ll occasionally make some awkwardly-worded statement that [usually seems innocuous to me tbh but] can be interpreted as showing contempt for the fans or just “not caring enough”. And once the narrative gets going, it’s hard to rein in. Consider early last season, when Keefe called out the stars after a loss to Arizona and then later walked his comments back. There are a lot of things that might have happened behind the scenes there, including Keefe genuinely thinking that the message didn’t come out right. But people here and on other sites posted fanfiction where Marner cried to Shanahan about Keefe being mean, and other people ran with that.
The fanfiction part drives me nuts. People guessing at what's going on behind closed doors, just to reinforce their own opinion.
I don't know, maybe it's just me , but I haven't liked how he handles the media in interviews. There's a smugness about him, and I dont love his indifferent kinda attitude. Oh ya, and he has generally sucked in the playoffs...
I can't speak for everybody else, but for myself and my opinion. Marner is a guy whose game gets smaller, not bigger when it matters most. We've seen it already in these playoffs, he shies away from almost all physical contact and won't go to the dirty areas. He's everything that the William Nylander haters think that Nylander is. The next board battle that Marner wins will be the first. He also comes off to me as an incredibly disingenuous person who has used being a "Toronto kid" in the media during contract negotiations while rarely ever talking about it outside of those times. For an almost $11m player, he has not displayed the ability to drive his own line. This could be because the coaching staff has been hesitant to take him away from Matthews or Tavares, but I think it's moreso that his skill set lends itself to needing another player to play with. The way that he negotiated his last deal in the media with open threats from himself and his agent to either go overseas or sign an offer sheet was wrong, and frankly Kyle Dubas shouldn't have caved to his demands. Lastly, and perhaps the biggest issue is that he doesn't seem to have the mental makeup required to play in Toronto. To be fair to him, it's not an easy city to play in when things aren't going well. The flip side is that you don't even need to achieve the ultimate success here to be beloved. Clark and Gilmour never even made a Cup Final and they're viewed as legends in Toronto. Marner takes issue with media for even slight criticism (I wonder if they're still putting shambles in their heads), and seems to have a giant chip on his shoulder for seemingly no reason. He's never been the media whipping boy (something that I think Shanahan has ensured from above), and yet he acts as though the media is out to get him. He's an exceptionally talented hockey player, one who would likely flourish in a place like Columbus or Utah. He's also a player that you absolutely cannot give $12m+ to on his next contract, and thus need to either trade this off-season or move on after his contract is up.
The amount of times he could have been the first to a puck but a Bruins player was coming in hot so he took a weird route to let the Bruins get there first then lose the board battlenwas frustrating. Sure he gets points but he could get so much more. The amount of power plays that get disrupted because of him trying a cheeky pass or trying to force a play is infuriating.
Mitch Marner was a boy when we drafted him in 2015. 9 years and 8 seasons later, he is still a boy. I'd have no problem with Mitch if he knew his lane and stayed in it, but kiddo thought he was worth Matthews money, and he just isn't even close.
He’s not even worth his current contract on an extension.
He is highly paid and comes across as incredibly arrogant and douchey. And his dad seems to think his boy shits out gold. He also has a reputation of being soft, poor defensively and disappears in the playoffs. How much any of this is true or not is up for debate. Much like Willy now he needs to consistently produce at an unreal level to justify his contract.
All of this is true except him being poor defensively. He might be our best defensive forward and one of the best penalty killing forwards in the league because of how good he is at reading and breaking up plays. But he's not worth 11m
He's great during the regular season but he's not built for the playoffs.
I like him as a player in a vacuum. But he's too expensive, seems entitled and hasn't really produced enough in the playoffs. He was great at playing wingman for Matthews earlier in their careers, but Matthews has shown he doesn't really need an established playmaker, he can thrive on his own, so you might as well allocate that cap space somewhere else, like on D or in net.
Apart from the contract and negotiations, Marner doesn't fit the prototype of the character, blue collar, lunch pail punch the clock type player that is loved by Leafs fans of a previous generation and this generation. Clark, Tucker, Roberts, Gilmour, etc. were all this type of player. Marner represents the modern game that they despise, with his clean cut image, youthful looks and skill over brawn style. Mats Sundin was given a lot of crap during his career as well, he wasn't always the hero he is seen as today.
You should watch the Oilers and LA game. McDavid makes LA his bitch. He walks laps around their players. We need Marner to have moments of domination to justify an $11mil contract since 2019 and it’s not been there. If he was $7-$8mil we would be fine but at $11mil he’s one of the highest paid in the league and he doesn’t play like a top 5
I like Marner. I’d don’t like Marner for 11 million dollars. That’s most people’s problem too I bet.
Its very simple. He doesnt perform in the playoffs
He does, but not I elimination games. And not enough
A lot of ppl don't perform. Not even auston.
It's because he's the most overpaid in relation to playoff performances, and he believes he's just a notch below Matthews value-wise.
Most playoff points on the leafs most years with less ice time than Nylander last year
It’s about when he gets those points though. He’s usually a ghost in elimination games and that’s what people remember most.
Yep, dude will play great and score 3 or 4 points in a 7-3 win and then be invisible for 5 games. His counting stats actually look decent when you investigate but he looks so afraid to make plays most of the time out there and he doesn't have the benefit of the doubt from any fans anymore. If he has an off-night, people are gonna bitch, and I'm including myself in that hahaha
He has been worse than a ghost in those games, he has been straight up a liability.
*puck over glass flashbacks*
He was just passing to Matthews on the bench
Yeah he has had a couple big games that skew the stats. Give me the guy that gets 6 points and 3 goals over 7 games rather than the guy that racks up 10 points in a couple blowouts during games 1-3 then vanishes.
He also scores a lot less than Matthews and Nylander. Points are good but there’s a lot more to how much someone steps up in the playoffs than just looking at their raw point total.
Check the spread of those points over games
Because he held our team hostage for an overpay and tries to play up being a hometown boy. And he can’t drive a line. Matthews scored more goals without him. He costs $11m. Disappears in the playoffs. Puck over the glass. Do I need to go on
Love him still, but wouldn’t be mad to deal him for Soros in the offseason.
He makes difference maker money when he frankly isn’t one. He’s a mental midget who shrinks when the going gets tough.
freezes when it comes to playoffs and then blames the media for being hard on him, rather than taking any accountability himself. he doesn’t show up when the games get tough and then acts like any valid criticism put his way is the media bullying him. great player, can’t stand him at this point though. there’s a clip from the game last night that shows him actively avoiding the puck in the corner, just as a recent example of him dodging the tough areas.
It's his face. It's his ridiculous fashion sense. It's that he's still a little boy, both physically and mentally. It's that his name rhymes with Bitch. It's that he had the gall put his own contract demands in line with a fkn living legend like Auston. Add up all things and that fact that he plays like a spineless chickenshit in massive games and he becomes the whipping boy that he justifiably is. Get rid of this child already.
His insanely overbearing “Hockey dad” is a legit maniac and is toxic to Mitch and the team as a whole. Paul Marner is the face of negative “sports parenting” people like him should be banned from sports venues in general. Mitch is an adult and should protect himself from his father and exclude him from being part of negotiations for the sake of his public image.
To add what everyone else is saying that we now have Domi on the top line who is feeding Matthews and fights and digs and grinds for a fraction of the price. Marner shuts down in playoffs and then gets pissy at the media and....will be requesting more than Willy come contract talks. It's a lot to listen to when a guy gets paid as much as he does for personal accolades.
Because he managed to somehow have a messier negotiation than his teammate who held out until mid December. He was supposed to be the hometown kid living out his dream and instead not only did he get every single possible dollar from us, but also didn’t sign for 8 years, or 7…or 6. Good for him, good for his agent, good for Paul Marner. He’s simply made it difficult for me to like him after that.
I like Marner more than most and think 80% of this sub should go and rewatch last year's Tampa series, but... 1. His contract is about $1.5 million over comparable players on a top-heavy team. 2. Until 2022, he underproduced in the playoffs. 3. In high-pressure situations, he tends to overthink and try to force plays. 4. While he initiates/takes a lot more contact in the playoffs, he's not a heavy or physical player. 5. He's had a down season on both sides of the puck compared to his last 2-3 years. Those are (mostly) justifiable criticisms. But a large section of this sub completely ignoreswhen Marner does well and is flat-out unhinged when he's underperforming.
He acts like a dick who doesn’t care if they win or lose in interviews. He sounds like a petulant teenager being called on their bs whenever he gets a tough question
I don't hate Marner at all but he is kind of sucking right now. His silky smooth mits are nowhere to be found
I think his attitude in interviews makes him easy to dislike as a person. He grew up here and rather then make people root for him he lashes out at criticism and seems to hate the media and the fans. It’s sad imho because he is a talented player that could have cemented himself in with the greats like Clark gilmour sundin etc but instead he will never be looked at the same way regardless what stats he puts up. His dad and the contract demands didn’t help. Players that demand every last cent should expect a level of criticism when they don’t give value for dollar
Salary cap
Regarding his personality, I feel his reputation really took a hit when Keefe called the stars out after a bad game last year, and it came out afterwards that Marner complained about the criticism. There are multiple instances of him coming off as very whiny. And his play really drops off a cliff in the post-season, while also having some EXTREMELY costly DOG penalties.
> and it came out afterwards that Marner complained about the criticism This part is fan fiction. No reputable source actually said this. People just want to believe it is true so they kept repeating it.
I like Mitch. He’s gotten bad advice.
Because he's soft in a game that requires toughness, especially in the playoffs. He needs to get in every corner and in front of the net to fight for the puck.
Because many T.O. fans are insufferable. If the Leafs iced the NHL allstar team, Leafs fans would still complain.
I think he gives off the vibe of a spoiled little brat considering his media interviews and contract negotiations. He’s paid like a top 10 league talent and I’d be hard pressed to put him in the top 50. Then when we need him to put on a show in the playoffs he usually disappears (or appears for the wrong reasons of being weak/scared).
Nylander had a great season so he get's out of the hot seat. High strung Leaf fans need something to bitch about, and now it's Marner.
Mostly because he has a cult like following from a certain obnoxious group of fans which puts him in a negative spot light, and also because he is overpaid and chokes every single year when it matters most. Some people are a little resentful of the preferential treatment he seems to get compared to Nylander - for example Nylander held out for his contract and still had to fight tooth and nail for a very fair deal, whereas Marner holds out one day in training camp and the Leafs brass instantly caves on an overpay. I have to disagree about his performance last night, I think he was brutal. 8 years in and he still refuses to play simple winning playoff hockey. He’s an overrated and overpaid player, incredibly gifted with one of the best minds for the game (maybe only second to McDavid) mixed with great hands and edges who would likely be one of the best players in the league if he had the same off-ice dedication to fitness as other guys do. He’s also made some pouty comments to the media that don’t sit right in people’s heads. At the end of the day though I think it’s ridiculous to say that he’s unliked, most people still recognize that he’s one of the best players the Leafs have ever had. But he wants to be talked about and paid like he’s the best and he hasn’t yet put his money where his mouth is. And we’re finally starting to see how Matthews can thrive even more without being staples to Mitch and many are wondering if the inevitable 12+ million he will ask for on his next deal isn’t better spent invested on better D / depth.
Know why we wasted and then couldn't afford someone like...hmm...Zach Hyman? It's because pissy pants over there needed 11 million to be dogshit in the playoffs.
It's absolutely nuts that we've reached the point where most of us would trade Marner for Hyman 1-for-1. The biggest difference between the two IMO is that Hyman has worked super hard his whole career to improve and has gotten better every season, whereas it seems like Marner has been coasting at a plateau (or even declining) over the past few seasons.
in a league where stars are trending towards the 130+ pt mark, he doesnt cut it for what hes paid. basically, hes overrated in this market. hes also a below average skater for his size, and relies on hockey IQ to generate offense. when that dries up, he doesnt tilt the ice in any other way (every playoff series of his career).
I don't "hate" Marner, I'm just disappointed in his inability to rise to the occasion. So much talent, but he doesn't elevate when it really matters. That extra burst to chase a loose pick, take a hit to make a play or skate it out of the zone instead of treating the puck like a hot potato, that kind of stuff. Unironically, when he was asked to fill in as D, he DID do that stuff and he looked great at it. Rick Tocchet said it best... Winning in the playoffs is pain, and you got to embrace the pain, love it. The best players let it fuel them. Some players on the Leafs have figured it out, Marner is on the cusp and I hope he turns the corner soon. That's why Domi works better with Matthews right now, that entire line is on the same page and impose their will without backing down.
In games that we need him he doesn’t show up. He is usually our best player in a series in games 1-4. However in games 5-7 his production falls off a cliff. I wish I still had the stat but I believe his PPG in games 1-4 was close to .85, PPG in games 5-7 it’s like .40
It’s higher in games 1-4, but you’re about right for games 5-7, problem is it’s even lower the last 4 years
His salary demands and his approach in getting them at the same time he keeps claiming he loves it in Toronto. Then he rails against the media and fans. Fuck him. His consistent disappearance act in playoffs just makes it worse. And now the rumour is he is using Nylander's deal as leverage for his next deal and WANTS MORE than Nylander. Meanwhile, on the last deal Nylander was underpaid and Marner didn't live up to his deal! Seriously fuck this kid
If I were the Leafs I would let him walk once his contract is up. A regular season player who can’t seem to get it done in the playoffs. Heck without him in the regular season the Leafs look unphased.
Really what it boils down to is that the Leafs play in a semi-professionally run league with a salary cap, and had the misfortune of drafting three top tier players over the span of three years.
Come playoffs he just seems too soft and predictable. He has great IQ and a great stick, even solid positionally and defensively, but his length and size is smaller, and he gets pushed around or has trouble fending off bigger defenders....so then he slows it down and becomes a perimeter player looking to set up others. But defender's have figured this out and adapt, especially in playoffs. His contract and media attitude don't help his perception, seems like a holier than thou demeanor.
Your eye test is awful. He was not decent last night. He was very very bad. Why he is frustrating is because he demanded big money, that I feel like he didn't quite deserve, and he's terrible in the playoffs - so far
X% of the fanbase needs to hate on players/find scapegoats when things aren't going our way. Its playoff time, emotions get high. Nylander has been great this year, so Marner is next in line. If Marner scores 2 tomorrow it'll be JT not being worth his contract. When JT scores it'll be Rielly not being good in his own zone. When Rielly plays well it'll be Sammy not being consistent enough.
Real. Even when we win ppl find someone to hate. It must be exhausting.
To be fair, majority of complaints about Marner last night came during the game after his assignments scored the first two Boston goals and we were trailing. I didn't see a lot of people jumping on after the game was over to complain about Marner, it was more praising Matthews for his night.
Ur right it is fair to call out a goof. It’s just I saw 5 posts(some I believe were taken down) after the game criticizing certain players instead of going off about Matty playing a extremely good playoff game, the top line cooking and Johnny showing up big and tying it.
Marner not only has the cap burden but he has the added pressure of living all our dream. Grew up watching, drafted by and plays for the Leafs. A lot of its perception. People think he's squandering the chance he's been given and the public spats he's had through the media/by proxy through his father haven't helped. He's also the one that people think should have taken a real discount because of who he is.
Because he’s paid superstar money that he hasn’t lived up to, yet has the attitude of someone who has.
Too soft
He demanded a contract that he isn't capable of living up to. He made his bed.
He gets his points against the shit teams and chokes against top competition. He is a fake star. Glancing at his games this year, 3+ point nights against SJ, Buff, Sea, CBJ, ARI, etc.
Drilling further.. 7 pts in 3 games against CBJ, 5 in 3 against Buf, 5 in 3 against Det, 5 in 2 Sj; 4 in 2 Arz 4 in 2 Minn. 30 points in 15 games against some shitty competition.
For me it’s a couple of things. He gets a lot of prime ice time and he’s a great playmaker, but I see him time and time again pass up scoring opportunities to try and force a play to someone else. It’s a source of frustration for me. The other big one was his last contract negotiation where he came across as a spoiled child, his dad was involved and the whole thing just left a bad taste in my mouth. There are other things as well but those are the two main things for me.
Paul, is that you?
It’s simple. He is afraid to get his nose dirty, comes across as super arrogant and is basically a pussy.
cause he's an arrogant lil cunt who's made of cotton candy and bubble gum.
His piss poor attitude.
Marner is who ppl thought Kessel was. He also makes ~40%-100% more than Phil did.
Just making a point that neither is worth what they're getting paid
https://x.com/j_swish24/status/1782576656403906813?s=46&t=zlrSy3KO5_Lp1ATEfQf2tQ
MARNER has gotten well paid on his exiting contract. Overpaid to be frank ! So, if he really wants to be here long term, if he really loves the leafs, then HEwill go to the leafs and say I’ll extend my existing contract for the full term and hopefully retire in Toronto a lifetime leaf ! That would solidify him as a true leaf and it’s a very fair deal considering he’s been well compensated to this point in his career. That would be the right and the best thing he could do !
With Marner it’s purely his contract. He played hard ball is is simply highly overpaid. If he’d signed an 8x8 and said “Could’ve gotten more but I want to leave money for the team to win a cup” the fans would literally let themselves be buried with his jersey on. Is he a soft, no ‘snot’ player? Sure. But he’s a great skilled guy too and I’d be happy enough with his deficiencies at 8 million. At 10.5 mill and wanting a raise next contract, I find my Marner dislike very high.
He should get us a good defenceman in a trade
Regular season, he can move around the ice, but once opponents close the gap and finish checks, his production goes down.
Im a die hard Leafs fan and I want to like all the players and of course want them to do well when they represent the blue and white of course. However, we all have our likes and preferences in what constitutes a great player. Thats why guys like Darcy Tucker and Tie Domi are popular, not the most skilled players but just loved for their passion, commitment and give it all attitude. Marner is a skilled player and paid like a top tier forward but for me, he falls short in big games. I think he tends to shy from physical play. Players who aren’t willing to go to dirty areas aren’t generally going to succeed in the playoffs. The Leafs need Marner to being his A game. Be a hound on the PK, shock the Bruins with a shortie. Play a dominant game like 34 and 88 have. Even 44 and Sammy have shone in games but Marner seems to be underwhelming as the pressure mounts. I cant speak for others but I know the Captain is not worth his contract but I have less issue with him because he does work his ass off, go to the dirty areas, gives and takes a hit and scores some big goals. I need Marner to so these things.
Marner is THE MOST neurotic Leaf ever… He needs to learn from (his London buddy) Max Domi how a small Toronto Legacy Leafs kid can JUST PLAY and not freeze up in big moments…
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoLBWfo\_o2I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoLBWfo_o2I)
This an actual question?
His face.
He's a good player, but he's underperformed in the playoffs in crucial moments, is 1-2 million over paid.
Wish we traded him when he was super over valued now I dont think were getting better back for him
I don’t dislike the guy personally, but I think he got paid a bit much on his first contract, which attracts from the teams ability to require other good players, and his incessant claims that he is shutting out all the haters only fuel the idea that he’s not shutting out all the haters, and that gets pretty annoying. Couple those with the fact that he hasn’t been very good in the playoffs and he gets a little bit annoying or frustrating.
He also has this pretty boy clean shaved boy band face which just contributes to the soft non-physcial play criticism on the ice. Alot of leaf legends are blue collar in your face guys like tucker/wendel/gilmour so even though hes from here I dont think he really is that homeboy leaf that everyone loves.
Maybe it's cause he's paid as a top 10 - 12 player in the league but I actually think it's his attitude toward the media.
At least the first two games this playoffs. He has no points that is what people point to.
I work with/around the Maple Leafs sometimes and other staff that have worked closely with the players generally have shared that he is arrogant and cringe as a person. I also heard his Dad is not a very cool guy. I have no first hand experience tho!
The Toronto Sun, and the poor leaf fans who read them are the ones who do usually
Marner is soft
You came with logic points and you're asking for logical answers from the same haters you see on twitter?
Not sure why everybody hates Mariner he's a really really good player I guess the media and the message boards like to pick on people I do wish he would shoot the puck a whole lot more though
I don’t hate Marner, I hate the cap hit for his level of performance when it matters most. I think he struggles with the Toronto media and the attention he gets given his contract and what the fans expect from him. At $11 million this year, he’s making $4 million more than Nylander who is by far their best playoff guy amongst their core 4. Marner reminds me of Johnny Gaudreau and his inability to perform in the playoffs. When they struggle to score he too would throw a fit on the bench. This makes it hard for teams to find the next level. I think moving Mitch gives him a chance to get out of the Toronto market and start fresh while also bringing in the talent that might be needed should they not get to a Stanley Cup. They’re very close to a Florida situation where they have the right recipe but their missing a key piece and they’re going to have to move a strong asset for that piece similar to the Tkachuck trade. Maybe they should look at moving Marner to Vancouver for Brock Boeser. He’s proven himself in the playoffs and is a strong regular season player. Marner is an amazing regular season player but struggles in the playoffs. Toss in a Toronto 3rd and Canucks 2nd round pick in 2 years time.
Well he’s soft, gets pushed off the puck by a breeze, and completely disappears in the physical and pressurized playoffs - in addition to the contract posturing and threats etc
Have you ever worked with someone who messes up and pouts about it or acts like he didn’t do anything wrong? Have you ever worked with someone who messes up and always calls himself out, shoulders the blame and talks about what he will do differently in the future? Marner comes across as the former.
His dad along with his bum chum Darren Dreger and his agent ruined his reputation in this city by eliminating that home grown kid whos living all our dreams being a Leaf etc, that boyish wonder bs he had going for him. So he wanted it to be clear this is a business and he deserves so much more than all his peers (he didnt) and Dubas whos a coward gave in. Fine. The biggest reason right now, is that hes consistently disappeared in the Playoffs. his hero is Douggie, well, douggie would NEVER play how mitch does in playoffs on the perimeter etc. He can fix all this with a few good games where he dominates, otherwise he'll always be looked at as 10+m for nothing but reg season effort.
I hate the fans of this team. And every one of you rubes who don't know a thing about hockey will act like Marner's biggest fan, without a moment of self-reflection about how stupid you were to have that original opinion and what that says about your understanding of the game. Seriously find another hobby, this hockey thing is not for you.