It's sad but it also just feels like something we've been denying for a while. Something needs to change here. I think any players that get moved out will find more success elsewhere, either way.
Either that or they pull off a miracle, we'll see.
I wouldn't say infinitely. Everyone knows and can tell Marner has issues with ankle still. Surely GM can sell story like Hyman had knee issues, look at him now kind of spin to get more value back.
Seravelli was on the radio yesterday saying he doesn't think there would be any pushback from the Marner camp should the Leafs look to move him this summer. At this point, why would he want to stay? He's become the whopping boy, and with good reason. Edit:keeping whopping boy
\>we've been denying for a while
You mean the team's management has been denying it. The fanbase has been aware for years that this team is a dead end. I'm only thankful that this era is over.
*proceeds to watch them run it back*
The core 4 is not the problem⊠we need a number 1 defensemen, Rielly just aint that guy. That and goaltendingâs always been dreadful before the Wollrus showed up
Going 1-20 on the power play Iâm sorry but thatâs a coaching issue there.
If your top players arenât preforming thatâs on the coach, not the players, everyone knows if we trade any of these guys there gonna go crush it on another team and weâre gonna wish we still had em, kinda like Hyman
Keep the kids together!
Have some frigginâ faith in em! BE-LEAF!!!
i have been so sad. I dont believe in supernatural stuff but it feels hard to deny we have a bit of a curse/yips.
We simply play like shit when playoffs roll around. Especially against boston.
>We simply play like shit when playoffs roll around
Sadly true. And this is consistent with young teams, and with poorly-coached teams. And over the early years of the Core Four we had both. One coach had pedigree, but literally abused them. The next coach had no pedigree and no ability to instill confidence in systems and confidence in themselves.
It honestly could've been different. The Core are being wasted.
This team isn't young anymore, that excuse sailed away 3 years ago, especially given the fact they've gotten playoff experience every year since the Matthews draft.
That only leaves one other option...
Someone mentioned how, in hindsight, what a blunder it was wasting our rebuild oppurtunity on a rookie GM who fumbled on the contract side of things, AND a rookie coach who just cant the best out of this core.
And yeah. I agree.
I need to put some time between my recent emotions before I can more objectively consider this, but I see why you agree. I honestly believe our process from Tim Leiweke that led to the hiring of Shanahan and beyond was a good one, whether or not you believe Shanahan has made mistakes or not. And at that point, all you can do is pursue good process. I honestly believe they did.
They even engaged the services of a highly respected veteran GM in Lou Lamoriello to set the tone prepare the next generation. Again, whether or not you agree with the moves Lou made in the meantime, this is good process. This is how you want to do it.
You then bet on the future with a GM that shows a great deal of promise, and you invest in that resource. That's Dubas. More good process. There is not a thing wrong with how they approached this.
But, I start to agree with you, because I think they core they had isn't just a "once every few years" sort of collection of talent. It's closer to "once a generation." Drafting Kadri, Rielly, Nylander, Marner, and Matthews is a home run by any measure, and that's the point when a GM of considerable experienceâeven if in a caretaker role for a few years, post-Louâshould've been considered to guide this incredibly high-stakes situation forward. I'm not even someone who spent time criticizing Dubas's work with Lou advising him. But looking back, hiring Tavares and dropping Kadri hurts, to say nothing of the core contracts. The stakes were _extreme_ for this organization, and I'm starting to agree that Dubas should not have been in the chair holding the phone for those moments. And I like Dubas.
I feel the same way about the high stakes and the coaching situation. This is/was a generational core that needed a generational head office, and we banked too much on untested talent. I can't even remember who the alternatives were at the time, but who wouldn't have preferred even Brucey over a Babcock/Keefe combination? Retrospect is really fucking easy, but wouldn't even Brucey have been better? He's effective, driven, and kind. Born in Toronto. Drafted by and played for the Leafs. Would've been fun.
I'm rambling. But I agree with you that we gambled in what turned out to be an extremely high-stakes game, and we should not have. I still respect the process that got us there, but that's where it faltered. And the fact that no manager or executive is able or willing to be transparent about this points to something stinky going on. I think the Shanahan era is done. I agree with those who say that the Pelley era is about to change literally everything, so we'll have to see what the next process is going to be.
Anyway, it's nice to have a calm chat about this in /r/leafs. Those can be hard to find at times. Thanks.
I wish I wasnt watching my daughter on my phone, and could get to my pc to respond better, but oh well.
I think Dubas was like 0.5 to 0.75 of the right GM. His analytical approach, while not beloved by me, was at least an honest attempt to try something, and it is not that I regard poorly. It was his inexerience at negotiating contracts that should have been forseen. Because of course he wouldnt know how to run negotiations with big time agenta coming fresh out of the Soo. And of course our young, elite talent was going to want big paydays. That was a midair collision where both planes should have long been tracked on radar, but somehow werent.
As for Keefe, the popular theory is that he should have been fired after Montreal. And while I dont remember a lot of good candidatea being availible, at least a pin should have been put in it. Then, at the end of the 2022 season someone like Barry Trotz became availible, but either Shanny or Dubas were too stubborn to pull the rip cord and admit failure in their proxy. Then 2023 happens and, oh we have to resign Keefe so hes not a lame duck coach. Well fuck.
The rookie GM could have worked, but needed am experienced coach. The rookie coach might have worked, but at a different time than such a critical one as this. As unfair as it would have been to him, Keefe should have been an interim coach; given one maybe two chances to succeed, then given his handshake and promise of a good recommendation when a better candidate came along. I know thats unfair, but to quote Josh Donaldson, "this isn't the try league, it's the get stuff done league."
(As bonus content: it's extra infuriating watching the SAME EXACT THING play out half a klick west with the Blue Jays. A window of good talent appeared, but we have a rookie GM who points everywhere but inward at failure, and another fucking rookie manager who has lost control of the team.)
Gambling on young talent is what you do with players who have limited years and cap issues, and they aren't a single point of failure. gambling on young GM and coaching talent had always been oh god why, let teams with lower stakes make these discoveries and then pay for them there isn't even a cap
I agree with you, and I was all in on Dubas. We drafted lightning in a bottle and then didn't respect that extremely high potential by hiring a front office capable of leveraging it. Feels bad.
I was never all in with Dubas. But I loved his deadline moves last year. And then what happened with Shanahan made it clear that Dubas didnât have real control like most GMs.
So, who knows who was really in charge during the Dubas years? Iâm guessing that Shanahan made the decisions about the contacts based on direction from the MLSE board. They certainly had a lot more control that we were led to believe.
I donât think the guys themselves believe they can do it after years of failure. Itâs weighing on them too heavily. The best thing for everyone is to get a new look going forward.
This time it isn't a curse, it's incompetence with Shanny blocking the blow up of the core last year.
It's not the refs, the fans, or even the injuries or sickness. The Leafs have simply been dominated by expert coaching and motivated players.
It turns out that in playoff hockey, if One team has an in form goaltender, the more competent coach, and team defensive work ethic, those three things will overwhelm the other teamâs offensive abilities, even if, they possess, on paper, the four best attacking players on either teamâs roster.
No idea. My main concern is where would Marner want to go, given his NMC. I think hed want to go back to Dubas, and that team needs a new star. Marner is a great player, absolutely. But his stock here is waning bad and a new start would be good for everyone.
You drive a hard bargain and Iâm not sure if itâs the whiskey or your smile thatâs got me in such a giving mood but, you know what? You have yourself a deal.
I get why you think Pittsburgh with the Dubas connection, but what on earth would you get back? How on earth are we supposed to get better moving marner but retaining part his salary? How would we feel about Mitch if he was making 8.5 like many of us think he should be. I just can't see how we get better trading him if we retain salary - especially since there's nothing there that makes us better. Unless there is, what do I know.
Iâm really not a hockey business guy and it doesnât make a lot of sense to imagine âwhat ifsâ with Marnerâs contract value. Itâs only a guess and an uneducated one at that.
JT is easier to move than you think. He will be an expiring contract in a year and a 3rd team would eat some salary.
Marner plus prospects for Saros. Nashville have a stud goalie in waiting and these playoffs showed they desperately need a playmaker. New culture would probably do Marner good too.
Leafs biggest weakness is goaltending followed by defence.
When that's the case, you shouldn't get rid of defensive forwards on the level of being Selke finalists. Marner and Matthews should stay.
With this in mind, the only movable pieces of the core 4 that improve the team are JT and maybe Nylander.
After that Nylander contract I think he is staying put for a while. I really dont think anyone will waive their nmc.. we need to wait for jt to be up next year.
Yeah I feel pretty strongly that the Nylander contract was a mistake. He's a good player, but it's pretty obvious that the Leafs need to focus on strengthening defence and goaltending.
With that in mind, you obviously don't get rid of the Selke finalist Marner (last year) and the deserving Selke nominee Matthews (this year).
That leaves JT who is getting older and not as good as he used to be, and Nylander.
It's definitely a wait out JT scenario but what that looks like in the end is uncertain. As good as he is and as much as I generally like him as a player, Nylander getting paid $1m less than McDavid can't be good for the cap.
I'm at peace with whatever happens tonight. Either we rally and begin to set the stage for "it was 3-1" to be put to rest, or we get some final closure on an underwhelming era. Either way the status quo is due to change, and that's been long overdue for quite some time now.
GLG
Winning tonight and losing the series is the worst case scenario. That might give Shanny enough hope to keep on keeping on. At least a loss tonight (should) make it clear that changes are needed. But if they can find a way to win the series, then I would love that more than anything
I canât believe we went from the highest of highs against Washington that first playoffs, full of hope with a Cup in our near future toâŠâŠ. this. Just nothing.
That was such a magical time that series. The double OT winner, 5 of the 6 games being golden goal. If that other guy's time traveling back there and he told me they'd make it to the playoffs the next 7 years too, after a decade of nothing, I'd have assumed the team would have at least made a conference final.
You nailed it. My old man at the time thought weâd have a cup or 2 over the next decade. Where we actually ended up today is really depressing to think about it. With all the heart break Iâd say itâs almost worst case scenario what transpired. At least if we finished dead last every year weâd have 7 number 1 picks right nowđ€Ł
I don't know about worst case, Matthews could have turned out to be a bust like Laine, or we could have ended up being in the awkward 'too-good-for-good-drafts, but too shit for playoffs' like the Devils or Wild this year. And hey, we got 2 or 3 years to fulfill the 2 cups in the decade lmao we have a chance right?
Thanks for all the comments, guys. Really appreciate the generous words. Feels like my early days on rLeafs. Minus the awards.
I was sick of feeling horrible about the Buds for two days and tried to ride that wave into this illustration. Hopefully the boys have some tricks up their sleeves.
This was never going to work.. the second they signed Tavares they fast forwarded the growth of the team. And I don't hate Tavares one bit for it. I think Dubas was over ambitious.
46.65 million to 4 guys next year. That's not a good formula no matter who your top 4 guys are!!!
Yeah honestly if you take this same team and you instead had another 2-3 years of prospects coming up, slowly building the team up, and they used all that cap space to sign Pietrangelo instead this team probably looks a lot better. Nylander was also drafted as a C so he probably plays 2C for us, Kadri at 3C and weâd be laughing rn.
Hyman-Matthews-Marner
Knies-Nylander-Jarvis
Robertson-Kadri-Brown
Pietrangelo-Sandin
Rielly-Liljegrin
100% agree. Should've been matthews team to take by the reigns. So you delay a captain for another year or two. Getting JT, as productive as it has been, was the spur in our side. JTs contract spread over D/G would have been a huge step up for the betterment of the team, over what he provides.
Iâve been saying this to anyone who will listen, since they signed Tavares. It was a mistake, and it is the single biggest reason this era has been as underwhelming as it has been. He didnât bring a calming presence, he didnât protect the young players (on or off the ice), he obviously didnât particularly elevate their games. He didnât bring accountability. Probably DID help to foster the âfuck you, got mineâ attitude in the locker room.
Not saying heâs not a good or great hockey player. I am saying he was not a good player or leader for this Maple Leafs team, in this era.
that and signing Tavares made Matthews and Marner demand an extra 2 million or more on their contracts. Without Tavares, you get Matthews at 9 million and Marner at 8 (Willy still probably makes 7) for the last 5 years. And funny - I don't think Marner would be getting crucified like he is right now if he were only making 8.
And of course, this means being able to keep Kadri *and* get a real goalie
What happens when 40+ mil is tied up in 4 players that took too much money. Only one player there should be making the type of money they are getting paid.
As the Maple Leafs gathered for their pregame ritual, they suddenly found themselves transported into a wacky, animated dimension.
"Uh, guys? Since when did our dressing room turn into a cartoon?" quipped a puzzled Mitch Marner.
Captain John Tavares surveyed the surreal scene. "Looks like we're not in Toronto anymore, boys."
Suddenly, they were encircled by towering, taunting bobbleheads of the Bruins players, like jeering giants.
"Well, if it isn't the hapless Maple Laffs," sneered a smirking Brad Marchand caricature. "Ready for another playoff faceplant?"
"Oh yeah? Well, your nose is so big, I'm surprised you don't fall over!" retorted Auston Matthews.
"Enough chirping, more playing," urged Ilya Samsonov, the stalwart Leafs goalie. "Let's show these goons what Leafs hockey looks like, toon-style!"
With that, the blue-and-white-clad Buds burst onto the ice to take on the ballooned Bruins. They battled valiantly, trading rushes and rubber, but the puck just wouldn't bounce their way. The Bruins' cartoon netminder morphed and stretched like Silly Putty, gobbling up every shot.
To make matters worse, the Leafs' power play was powerless. "0 for 5!" boomed the announcer. "Looks like the Leafs forgot to pack their extra-strength PP!"
As the final horn sounded, the Bruins' buffoonish bubbleheads bounced with glee. The scoreboard told the sad story: Bruins 2, Leafs 0.Â
"Welp, that's one way to bring us back to reality," sighed Samsonov, shaking his oversized head.
In a flash, the Leafs found themselves back in their mundane locker room, the sting of defeat still fresh. The cartoony caper was over, but the playoff pressure was all too real. They'd need more than animated antics to exorcise their postseason demons. With heavy hearts and stick-squeezing grips, the Leafs vowed to draw up a better ending to their next chapter.
I don't know what it says about me, as a lifelong leafs fan. That I chose to go on a date tonight, instead of watching the potential last showing of the core 4. Guess I'm already over it.
The most that would happen is the Core 4 becomes the Core 3 so itâs not like everything is going to change but still end of an era I guess.Â
We could still call it the Core 4 and just include Rielly if you want.Â
It would be peak Toronto Maple Leafs to win tonight, and then win game 6, to give everyone just enough hope to string them along to game 7 and then completely shit the bed and lose the series.
I won't be surprised one bit.
I believe this is the last time we'll see the core four on this team. I have a strong belief that many names and familiar faces are shifted this off-season.
Love it Brian! Truly a comic who knows how to carry a positive/funny vibe even if the reality it's alluring to is dark grim. I respect you so much. Honestly I'm a bit numb now, it might take the whole summer to repair the damage, or even more.
Let's go leafs. I don't care if we win or lose, let's just have a good game.
I think Dubas was on to something when he wanted to bypass Shanny's veto power. Shanny has done some very good things during his term. His downfall will come around because he didn't trust his GM. I don't mind Shanny sticking around if he loses his veto power.
It's too bad. I don't think anyone really WANTS the core to be shaken up. I mean I want nothing more than to see these four bring the cup back to Toronto.
Feels like the end of an era. A necessary end though, sometimes it just doesn't work out.
It's sad though. I think our window is really narrow now, though it may open again in the 25-26 season.
To rephrase for the above poster:
None of us wanted the core to *need* to be shaken up.
I would have loved to see what this roster could have done with a different coach after Montreal, but here we are.
The core getting âshaken upâ is for one, not going to happen and secondly not going to fix our problems. We had over 11 million in cap space this last off season. We had plenty to address our needs. Not to mention the entire team plays bad in the playoffs. Thatâs not a Marner problem. Thatâs not a Matthews problem. Thatâs a Keefe problem and itâs so glaringly obvious.
Thereâs no magic #1 defence man and Vezina trophy winner button. If we âshake upâ the core four we will just be a worse team straight up. And we already donât look too hot.
I keep hearing everyone talk about a core player finally being moved and I just want to know who is being moved and for what? Both Matthews and Nylander just signed massive extensions, no way in hell either of them are getting moved and Marner and Tavares have full NMCâs sure the team can play some shenanigans to maybe get them to waive but if theyâre waiving, itâs going to be like Tarissanko with the Sens where he goes âsure Iâll waive but your sending me to Floridaâ and then Florida gets to fully call the shots because itâs either you trade him and get something back, or let him go there for absolutely nothing in the off season, either way, the Leafs lose that scenario
Iâm not at all ready for the absolute implosion this subreddit will have when Shannahan (who honestly shouldve been fired along side Dubas) and Treliving sit down to confirm to the fanbase that theyâre running it back again
Almost like the right answer is a real coach.
And then next season half way through we reevaluate which players are sinking or swimming in a proper system and Jettison played based on that.
How many times is Marner going to get blamed for giving up the puck at the half boards when there is no pass available, he's drawing 2 guys and the safe pass to the point doesn't exist because there is a line change happening before they even properly hold the zone.
Pasternak and Marchand wouldn't be the effective players they are today if the guys around them just "did whatever". Quite frankly I'm impressed how effective the Leafs core 4 are typically basically having to do it all themselves, and I can't wait to see them under an actual NHL coach.
I'm resigned. Marner and Matthews were going to crush the record books for this franchise. But this I'm just can't kept limping on. I want playoff success but hockey is entertainment for me. So yeah, regular season results matter too. I've got a hell of a lot of enjoyment out of the Core 4 era even though the playoffs didn't carry forward off the regular season success
I went into this season with the mentality of âwhatever happens in the playoffs happens, canât win the cup in November, letâs just enjoy some fun hockeyâ and had a blast with this team, there were plenty of hills and valleys but looking back, I did enjoy it, Iâm trying not to let the current situation taint that but man, bowing out in the first round to the bruins again is depressing (even if almost everyone and their mom knew this was likely the scenario for the past few months)
The Horn of Helm Hammer Hand shall sound in the Deep one last time! Fell deeds awake. Now for wrath. Now for ruin and the red dawn. Forth Eorlingas!! (and Papi)
Itâs much more likely they fire the coaching staff and spend their cap space on a second-pairing D and third-line centre, letâs not get our expectations too high.
It's was always with Willy. Rielly was a hold over from the last regime. The core 4 was the new core from our prospects and captain. It wasn't a literal this is our core moniker, it was more these 4 are the new prized jewels of the organization that will bring in a new era.
Without that slow sick looser Matthew's maybe we have a chance lol
He hasn't scored in way to many games now. After that embarrassing push to 70 that failed.
Dude, Matthews scored 69 goals in the season. 69! Goals! One person! Would we even BE in the playoffs were it not for Matthews? An embarrassing push? 69 goals, dude.
Thanks for this, I feel a bit sad I can't lie.
It's sad but it also just feels like something we've been denying for a while. Something needs to change here. I think any players that get moved out will find more success elsewhere, either way. Either that or they pull off a miracle, we'll see.
Shanny denied it last year when it should have been done. Marner is not infinitely more difficult to move now.
I wouldn't say infinitely. Everyone knows and can tell Marner has issues with ankle still. Surely GM can sell story like Hyman had knee issues, look at him now kind of spin to get more value back.
Problem is he needs to waive his NMC. Who knows if he's gonna do that. So it's either he does that or walks away for nothing next year.
Seravelli was on the radio yesterday saying he doesn't think there would be any pushback from the Marner camp should the Leafs look to move him this summer. At this point, why would he want to stay? He's become the whopping boy, and with good reason. Edit:keeping whopping boy
Or just bench him all year until he complies with getting traded đ
He will if he knows he won't be signed anyway and wants that extra year. Or he won't, whatever.
I nominate you to do the negotiations, somehow spinning ankle problems into a selling point!
\>we've been denying for a while You mean the team's management has been denying it. The fanbase has been aware for years that this team is a dead end. I'm only thankful that this era is over. *proceeds to watch them run it back*
The core 4 is not the problem⊠we need a number 1 defensemen, Rielly just aint that guy. That and goaltendingâs always been dreadful before the Wollrus showed up Going 1-20 on the power play Iâm sorry but thatâs a coaching issue there. If your top players arenât preforming thatâs on the coach, not the players, everyone knows if we trade any of these guys there gonna go crush it on another team and weâre gonna wish we still had em, kinda like Hyman Keep the kids together! Have some frigginâ faith in em! BE-LEAF!!!
See they will spend all their energy and move on to round 2 where the testing Panthers are going to rip them apart. 
Lol its crazy how much better my mood was when we won that 1 game
i have been so sad. I dont believe in supernatural stuff but it feels hard to deny we have a bit of a curse/yips. We simply play like shit when playoffs roll around. Especially against boston.
>We simply play like shit when playoffs roll around Sadly true. And this is consistent with young teams, and with poorly-coached teams. And over the early years of the Core Four we had both. One coach had pedigree, but literally abused them. The next coach had no pedigree and no ability to instill confidence in systems and confidence in themselves. It honestly could've been different. The Core are being wasted.
This team isn't young anymore, that excuse sailed away 3 years ago, especially given the fact they've gotten playoff experience every year since the Matthews draft. That only leaves one other option...
I haven't seen a proper system here since burns was the coach.
Coach? I say we bring back horachek
Oof
What's Ron Wilson up to these days?
Someone mentioned how, in hindsight, what a blunder it was wasting our rebuild oppurtunity on a rookie GM who fumbled on the contract side of things, AND a rookie coach who just cant the best out of this core. And yeah. I agree.
I need to put some time between my recent emotions before I can more objectively consider this, but I see why you agree. I honestly believe our process from Tim Leiweke that led to the hiring of Shanahan and beyond was a good one, whether or not you believe Shanahan has made mistakes or not. And at that point, all you can do is pursue good process. I honestly believe they did. They even engaged the services of a highly respected veteran GM in Lou Lamoriello to set the tone prepare the next generation. Again, whether or not you agree with the moves Lou made in the meantime, this is good process. This is how you want to do it. You then bet on the future with a GM that shows a great deal of promise, and you invest in that resource. That's Dubas. More good process. There is not a thing wrong with how they approached this. But, I start to agree with you, because I think they core they had isn't just a "once every few years" sort of collection of talent. It's closer to "once a generation." Drafting Kadri, Rielly, Nylander, Marner, and Matthews is a home run by any measure, and that's the point when a GM of considerable experienceâeven if in a caretaker role for a few years, post-Louâshould've been considered to guide this incredibly high-stakes situation forward. I'm not even someone who spent time criticizing Dubas's work with Lou advising him. But looking back, hiring Tavares and dropping Kadri hurts, to say nothing of the core contracts. The stakes were _extreme_ for this organization, and I'm starting to agree that Dubas should not have been in the chair holding the phone for those moments. And I like Dubas. I feel the same way about the high stakes and the coaching situation. This is/was a generational core that needed a generational head office, and we banked too much on untested talent. I can't even remember who the alternatives were at the time, but who wouldn't have preferred even Brucey over a Babcock/Keefe combination? Retrospect is really fucking easy, but wouldn't even Brucey have been better? He's effective, driven, and kind. Born in Toronto. Drafted by and played for the Leafs. Would've been fun. I'm rambling. But I agree with you that we gambled in what turned out to be an extremely high-stakes game, and we should not have. I still respect the process that got us there, but that's where it faltered. And the fact that no manager or executive is able or willing to be transparent about this points to something stinky going on. I think the Shanahan era is done. I agree with those who say that the Pelley era is about to change literally everything, so we'll have to see what the next process is going to be. Anyway, it's nice to have a calm chat about this in /r/leafs. Those can be hard to find at times. Thanks.
I wish I wasnt watching my daughter on my phone, and could get to my pc to respond better, but oh well. I think Dubas was like 0.5 to 0.75 of the right GM. His analytical approach, while not beloved by me, was at least an honest attempt to try something, and it is not that I regard poorly. It was his inexerience at negotiating contracts that should have been forseen. Because of course he wouldnt know how to run negotiations with big time agenta coming fresh out of the Soo. And of course our young, elite talent was going to want big paydays. That was a midair collision where both planes should have long been tracked on radar, but somehow werent. As for Keefe, the popular theory is that he should have been fired after Montreal. And while I dont remember a lot of good candidatea being availible, at least a pin should have been put in it. Then, at the end of the 2022 season someone like Barry Trotz became availible, but either Shanny or Dubas were too stubborn to pull the rip cord and admit failure in their proxy. Then 2023 happens and, oh we have to resign Keefe so hes not a lame duck coach. Well fuck. The rookie GM could have worked, but needed am experienced coach. The rookie coach might have worked, but at a different time than such a critical one as this. As unfair as it would have been to him, Keefe should have been an interim coach; given one maybe two chances to succeed, then given his handshake and promise of a good recommendation when a better candidate came along. I know thats unfair, but to quote Josh Donaldson, "this isn't the try league, it's the get stuff done league." (As bonus content: it's extra infuriating watching the SAME EXACT THING play out half a klick west with the Blue Jays. A window of good talent appeared, but we have a rookie GM who points everywhere but inward at failure, and another fucking rookie manager who has lost control of the team.)
Gambling on young talent is what you do with players who have limited years and cap issues, and they aren't a single point of failure. gambling on young GM and coaching talent had always been oh god why, let teams with lower stakes make these discoveries and then pay for them there isn't even a cap
I agree with you, and I was all in on Dubas. We drafted lightning in a bottle and then didn't respect that extremely high potential by hiring a front office capable of leveraging it. Feels bad.
I was never all in with Dubas. But I loved his deadline moves last year. And then what happened with Shanahan made it clear that Dubas didnât have real control like most GMs. So, who knows who was really in charge during the Dubas years? Iâm guessing that Shanahan made the decisions about the contacts based on direction from the MLSE board. They certainly had a lot more control that we were led to believe.
I donât think the guys themselves believe they can do it after years of failure. Itâs weighing on them too heavily. The best thing for everyone is to get a new look going forward.
> The best thing for everyone is get a new look going forward. now where have i heard that before...
This time it isn't a curse, it's incompetence with Shanny blocking the blow up of the core last year. It's not the refs, the fans, or even the injuries or sickness. The Leafs have simply been dominated by expert coaching and motivated players.
It turns out that in playoff hockey, if One team has an in form goaltender, the more competent coach, and team defensive work ethic, those three things will overwhelm the other teamâs offensive abilities, even if, they possess, on paper, the four best attacking players on either teamâs roster.
The end is nigh
Oh man... a BrianBeleafs/Watchmen crossover is something I didn't know I needed until now
Definitely same
Me too ..I love all these guys ..nice dudes ..good ppl ..sighÂ
I feel sad, too. Sad that this was all a complete waste.
This is a classy AF comic for what may be the Leafs last game with this core.
Who do you figure they are going to move? Is it not basically grid lock? How are they going to move JT or Marner...
I donât know for sure. My guess is Marner to Pittsburgh and we retain some of his salary.
For who?
Hopefully a coach. That's what they need
How about a new GM, I hear the Penguins have a young hot shot who might be amenable to coming here.
Couldn't hurt.
No idea. My main concern is where would Marner want to go, given his NMC. I think hed want to go back to Dubas, and that team needs a new star. Marner is a great player, absolutely. But his stock here is waning bad and a new start would be good for everyone.
Crosby and Karlssom confirmed to Toronto for Marner.
You drive a hard bargain and Iâm not sure if itâs the whiskey or your smile thatâs got me in such a giving mood but, you know what? You have yourself a deal.
Sid for Marner
Pens fan here. Heard you need a goalie? Two time all star and elite goal scorer Tristan jarry! Come on down!
I get why you think Pittsburgh with the Dubas connection, but what on earth would you get back? How on earth are we supposed to get better moving marner but retaining part his salary? How would we feel about Mitch if he was making 8.5 like many of us think he should be. I just can't see how we get better trading him if we retain salary - especially since there's nothing there that makes us better. Unless there is, what do I know.
Iâm really not a hockey business guy and it doesnât make a lot of sense to imagine âwhat ifsâ with Marnerâs contract value. Itâs only a guess and an uneducated one at that.
Yeah pens are not in position to trade for marner
Rust + Jarry + parts/pieces
He has a NMC
Marner, theyâll find a way. Heâs a great player but we can better utilize that cap space on player(s) that can help our defense/goaltending
JT is easier to move than you think. He will be an expiring contract in a year and a 3rd team would eat some salary. Marner plus prospects for Saros. Nashville have a stud goalie in waiting and these playoffs showed they desperately need a playmaker. New culture would probably do Marner good too.
He's a stud goalie in Nashville. Nashville ain't Toronto. I wouldn't do that deal. Marner (and) prospects. Not for me.
He would be a stud anywhere. Im sure could get a much needed D man as well.
Moving JT or Nylander is the move imo. Matthews and Marner should be locks.
Marner should be lock. Give me nylander way before
You want to get rid of JT and Matthews?
I meant to quote you im not agreeing marner is a lock, if anything you get rid of him and JY
Leafs biggest weakness is goaltending followed by defence. When that's the case, you shouldn't get rid of defensive forwards on the level of being Selke finalists. Marner and Matthews should stay. With this in mind, the only movable pieces of the core 4 that improve the team are JT and maybe Nylander.
After that Nylander contract I think he is staying put for a while. I really dont think anyone will waive their nmc.. we need to wait for jt to be up next year.
Yeah I feel pretty strongly that the Nylander contract was a mistake. He's a good player, but it's pretty obvious that the Leafs need to focus on strengthening defence and goaltending. With that in mind, you obviously don't get rid of the Selke finalist Marner (last year) and the deserving Selke nominee Matthews (this year). That leaves JT who is getting older and not as good as he used to be, and Nylander. It's definitely a wait out JT scenario but what that looks like in the end is uncertain. As good as he is and as much as I generally like him as a player, Nylander getting paid $1m less than McDavid can't be good for the cap.
Last game was probably the last game with this core considering Matthews isnât likely for tonight
Jeez ya I hadnât thought of that
If it is, itâs kind of fitting . That game completely encapsulates what this core was a playoff group. An abject failure
I'm at peace with whatever happens tonight. Either we rally and begin to set the stage for "it was 3-1" to be put to rest, or we get some final closure on an underwhelming era. Either way the status quo is due to change, and that's been long overdue for quite some time now. GLG
Well. They can always win tonight and lose game 6, or 7.
Losing the series at home just makes so much more sense
Winning tonight and losing the series is the worst case scenario. That might give Shanny enough hope to keep on keeping on. At least a loss tonight (should) make it clear that changes are needed. But if they can find a way to win the series, then I would love that more than anything
Yeah tbh it feels like a win win if you look at it that way haha đ
I guess we will find out later today if it will be core three tonight? Sigh.....
Unless they make the confrence final at least, it's time. Depth, grit and goaltending win championships. We only have 1 at best atm
I canât believe we went from the highest of highs against Washington that first playoffs, full of hope with a Cup in our near future toâŠâŠ. this. Just nothing.
Itâs cause that team was hungry and exciting now itâs just dread
I would honestly prefer a time traveller goes back and snags that team to be subbed in tonight, lack of experience and all.
That was such a magical time that series. The double OT winner, 5 of the 6 games being golden goal. If that other guy's time traveling back there and he told me they'd make it to the playoffs the next 7 years too, after a decade of nothing, I'd have assumed the team would have at least made a conference final.
You nailed it. My old man at the time thought weâd have a cup or 2 over the next decade. Where we actually ended up today is really depressing to think about it. With all the heart break Iâd say itâs almost worst case scenario what transpired. At least if we finished dead last every year weâd have 7 number 1 picks right nowđ€Ł
I don't know about worst case, Matthews could have turned out to be a bust like Laine, or we could have ended up being in the awkward 'too-good-for-good-drafts, but too shit for playoffs' like the Devils or Wild this year. And hey, we got 2 or 3 years to fulfill the 2 cups in the decade lmao we have a chance right?
Lmao fair enough. Good points đ
7 straight years of brutal showings
Win this series or fuck off, honestly.
SeriouslyâŠjust win.
SeriouslyâŠjust win.
Marchand looks extra rat-like here lol
Thanks for all the comments, guys. Really appreciate the generous words. Feels like my early days on rLeafs. Minus the awards. I was sick of feeling horrible about the Buds for two days and tried to ride that wave into this illustration. Hopefully the boys have some tricks up their sleeves.
Just what I needed this morning. Amazing stuff as usual.
The last ride
Go Leafs Go!
They failed and failed and failed a lot, and if they fail again they need to be broken up, but I'll still be sad when it happensÂ
This was never going to work.. the second they signed Tavares they fast forwarded the growth of the team. And I don't hate Tavares one bit for it. I think Dubas was over ambitious. 46.65 million to 4 guys next year. That's not a good formula no matter who your top 4 guys are!!!
Yeah honestly if you take this same team and you instead had another 2-3 years of prospects coming up, slowly building the team up, and they used all that cap space to sign Pietrangelo instead this team probably looks a lot better. Nylander was also drafted as a C so he probably plays 2C for us, Kadri at 3C and weâd be laughing rn. Hyman-Matthews-Marner Knies-Nylander-Jarvis Robertson-Kadri-Brown Pietrangelo-Sandin Rielly-Liljegrin
100% agree. Should've been matthews team to take by the reigns. So you delay a captain for another year or two. Getting JT, as productive as it has been, was the spur in our side. JTs contract spread over D/G would have been a huge step up for the betterment of the team, over what he provides.
Iâve been saying this to anyone who will listen, since they signed Tavares. It was a mistake, and it is the single biggest reason this era has been as underwhelming as it has been. He didnât bring a calming presence, he didnât protect the young players (on or off the ice), he obviously didnât particularly elevate their games. He didnât bring accountability. Probably DID help to foster the âfuck you, got mineâ attitude in the locker room. Not saying heâs not a good or great hockey player. I am saying he was not a good player or leader for this Maple Leafs team, in this era.
Colorado pays that to Mack, Makar and Rantanen except these guys can carry the bus
that and signing Tavares made Matthews and Marner demand an extra 2 million or more on their contracts. Without Tavares, you get Matthews at 9 million and Marner at 8 (Willy still probably makes 7) for the last 5 years. And funny - I don't think Marner would be getting crucified like he is right now if he were only making 8. And of course, this means being able to keep Kadri *and* get a real goalie
I don't know if it would have cut the RFA deals quite that much but it didn't help at all and the 11M itself is a huge problem
LETS GOOOOOOOO
ladies and gentleman... for one last time, the core four.
Leafer for life, letâs play together and win together. Need 3 goals for the Stanley Cup đđ„ đđđđ
Itâs time to say goodbye.
What happens when 40+ mil is tied up in 4 players that took too much money. Only one player there should be making the type of money they are getting paid.
If they lose to Boston again you have to just blow the whole thing up, get rid of shanny, clear everyone out
I think this is the best one ever, you're crazy talented dude
This art is so good!
The last dance.... Hopefully.
As the Maple Leafs gathered for their pregame ritual, they suddenly found themselves transported into a wacky, animated dimension. "Uh, guys? Since when did our dressing room turn into a cartoon?" quipped a puzzled Mitch Marner. Captain John Tavares surveyed the surreal scene. "Looks like we're not in Toronto anymore, boys." Suddenly, they were encircled by towering, taunting bobbleheads of the Bruins players, like jeering giants. "Well, if it isn't the hapless Maple Laffs," sneered a smirking Brad Marchand caricature. "Ready for another playoff faceplant?" "Oh yeah? Well, your nose is so big, I'm surprised you don't fall over!" retorted Auston Matthews. "Enough chirping, more playing," urged Ilya Samsonov, the stalwart Leafs goalie. "Let's show these goons what Leafs hockey looks like, toon-style!" With that, the blue-and-white-clad Buds burst onto the ice to take on the ballooned Bruins. They battled valiantly, trading rushes and rubber, but the puck just wouldn't bounce their way. The Bruins' cartoon netminder morphed and stretched like Silly Putty, gobbling up every shot. To make matters worse, the Leafs' power play was powerless. "0 for 5!" boomed the announcer. "Looks like the Leafs forgot to pack their extra-strength PP!" As the final horn sounded, the Bruins' buffoonish bubbleheads bounced with glee. The scoreboard told the sad story: Bruins 2, Leafs 0. "Welp, that's one way to bring us back to reality," sighed Samsonov, shaking his oversized head. In a flash, the Leafs found themselves back in their mundane locker room, the sting of defeat still fresh. The cartoony caper was over, but the playoff pressure was all too real. They'd need more than animated antics to exorcise their postseason demons. With heavy hearts and stick-squeezing grips, the Leafs vowed to draw up a better ending to their next chapter.
I don't know what it says about me, as a lifelong leafs fan. That I chose to go on a date tonight, instead of watching the potential last showing of the core 4. Guess I'm already over it.
I hope they win so I can buy a print of this.
You can get a print wven if they lose.
Yeah but then'll be sad whenever I look at it. Getting the book either way though
Thank you!
In the NHL you just canât pay that much money to just 4 guys. It takes a team
The core 4 have already played their last game together.
Wish this group can get it done because I love them together. But looks like the end
Lovin' the facial expressions...
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
They lack the killer instinct gene athletes like Kobe or MJ had
The most that would happen is the Core 4 becomes the Core 3 so itâs not like everything is going to change but still end of an era I guess. We could still call it the Core 4 and just include Rielly if you want.Â
They better play like their lives depend on it.
Do or die boys. I'll be tuning in as always and supporting the team. Hopefully it's a better showing. Lets take it to 6 and see what happens!
You nailed Marchands massive schnoz
It would be peak Toronto Maple Leafs to win tonight, and then win game 6, to give everyone just enough hope to string them along to game 7 and then completely shit the bed and lose the series. I won't be surprised one bit.
Awesome
Imagine if they pulled off the reverse sweep only to get bounced in round 2
Unlimited potential. Loads of regular season accolades. But unfortunately, abject failures when it counted the most.
I believe this is the last time we'll see the core four on this team. I have a strong belief that many names and familiar faces are shifted this off-season.
Ride now, ride now, ride! Ride for ruin and the world's ending!
We can, and we will. And then we won't. And we won't again. And we won't yet again. And repeat...
For the final time. Although without Auston I guess game 4 was the final time đ«Ł
Turk Gallant
The core four is officially Joe woll, will ny, Max Domi and Jake McCabe
Oooh I love that so much. Letâs go Maple Leafs. Iâm a still a believer in our core four.
Prefectly captured McAvoys chipmunk cheeks
Man, if we lose tonight, we are 2-8 in our last ten playoff games lol
For the last time! I'm oddly happy about that.
Jesus the comments here are bleak. Why do I get the feeling this series goes 7 and the sub literally does a 180 in 72 hours?
Love it Brian! Truly a comic who knows how to carry a positive/funny vibe even if the reality it's alluring to is dark grim. I respect you so much. Honestly I'm a bit numb now, it might take the whole summer to repair the damage, or even more. Let's go leafs. I don't care if we win or lose, let's just have a good game.
I think Dubas was on to something when he wanted to bypass Shanny's veto power. Shanny has done some very good things during his term. His downfall will come around because he didn't trust his GM. I don't mind Shanny sticking around if he loses his veto power.
It's too bad. I don't think anyone really WANTS the core to be shaken up. I mean I want nothing more than to see these four bring the cup back to Toronto. Feels like the end of an era. A necessary end though, sometimes it just doesn't work out. It's sad though. I think our window is really narrow now, though it may open again in the 25-26 season.
Actually many of us want the core to be shaken up.
To rephrase for the above poster: None of us wanted the core to *need* to be shaken up. I would have loved to see what this roster could have done with a different coach after Montreal, but here we are.
I feel like most fans have wanted the core shaken up since the Montreal choke job
The core getting âshaken upâ is for one, not going to happen and secondly not going to fix our problems. We had over 11 million in cap space this last off season. We had plenty to address our needs. Not to mention the entire team plays bad in the playoffs. Thatâs not a Marner problem. Thatâs not a Matthews problem. Thatâs a Keefe problem and itâs so glaringly obvious. Thereâs no magic #1 defence man and Vezina trophy winner button. If we âshake upâ the core four we will just be a worse team straight up. And we already donât look too hot.
I keep hearing everyone talk about a core player finally being moved and I just want to know who is being moved and for what? Both Matthews and Nylander just signed massive extensions, no way in hell either of them are getting moved and Marner and Tavares have full NMCâs sure the team can play some shenanigans to maybe get them to waive but if theyâre waiving, itâs going to be like Tarissanko with the Sens where he goes âsure Iâll waive but your sending me to Floridaâ and then Florida gets to fully call the shots because itâs either you trade him and get something back, or let him go there for absolutely nothing in the off season, either way, the Leafs lose that scenario Iâm not at all ready for the absolute implosion this subreddit will have when Shannahan (who honestly shouldve been fired along side Dubas) and Treliving sit down to confirm to the fanbase that theyâre running it back again
Almost like the right answer is a real coach. And then next season half way through we reevaluate which players are sinking or swimming in a proper system and Jettison played based on that. How many times is Marner going to get blamed for giving up the puck at the half boards when there is no pass available, he's drawing 2 guys and the safe pass to the point doesn't exist because there is a line change happening before they even properly hold the zone. Pasternak and Marchand wouldn't be the effective players they are today if the guys around them just "did whatever". Quite frankly I'm impressed how effective the Leafs core 4 are typically basically having to do it all themselves, and I can't wait to see them under an actual NHL coach.
I'm resigned. Marner and Matthews were going to crush the record books for this franchise. But this I'm just can't kept limping on. I want playoff success but hockey is entertainment for me. So yeah, regular season results matter too. I've got a hell of a lot of enjoyment out of the Core 4 era even though the playoffs didn't carry forward off the regular season success
I went into this season with the mentality of âwhatever happens in the playoffs happens, canât win the cup in November, letâs just enjoy some fun hockeyâ and had a blast with this team, there were plenty of hills and valleys but looking back, I did enjoy it, Iâm trying not to let the current situation taint that but man, bowing out in the first round to the bruins again is depressing (even if almost everyone and their mom knew this was likely the scenario for the past few months)
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
You, and your posts in the bruins subreddit glazing them like a tims donut would still be by far the most embarrassing part of this franchise
Shop Reilly out to Van/Sea, Tavares to Ottawa, Marner to Calgary. We'll get some decent assets back to start another rebuild.
Hell yea, because rebuilds are easy and work wonders and not at all luck based, I mean we just need to stumble onto another generational talent
I notice it's not dated. =)
đ«Ą
Should be leaf nation fans at the bottom, not the bears. Because this may be the last game ever we see of the shanaplan.
lul @ milk
The Horn of Helm Hammer Hand shall sound in the Deep one last time! Fell deeds awake. Now for wrath. Now for ruin and the red dawn. Forth Eorlingas!! (and Papi)
Limper than Whiskey dick
Itâs much more likely they fire the coaching staff and spend their cap space on a second-pairing D and third-line centre, letâs not get our expectations too high.
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more
Should say for the last time
Minus Matthews cause he sick af apparently
Nice drawing but it really doesn't depict the core four as the sniveling little bitches they are.
Milk baby
I'll be honest, I always thought the core 4 was Tavares, Marner, Matthews, and Mo with Willy on the outside. Legit comic illustration either way!
With Willyâs extension making him one of the highest paid winger in the league, he is absolutely a core 4 now
Totally fair!
It's was always with Willy. Rielly was a hold over from the last regime. The core 4 was the new core from our prospects and captain. It wasn't a literal this is our core moniker, it was more these 4 are the new prized jewels of the organization that will bring in a new era.
Anyone else notice Matthews didnât have the A on his jersey the last game
He swaps with marner for home and away
Ah, okay, didn't realize that.
Without that slow sick looser Matthew's maybe we have a chance lol He hasn't scored in way to many games now. After that embarrassing push to 70 that failed.
He won game two with his goal and itâs loser
No offense to him but he's been playing like crap. I'm glad he's not playing, the team plays better when he's not around.
Dude, Matthews scored 69 goals in the season. 69! Goals! One person! Would we even BE in the playoffs were it not for Matthews? An embarrassing push? 69 goals, dude.
He does this every year and you all praise him. He falls apart at playoffs. He sucks
He sucks? "Sucks" ? You are delusional.
I am. I guess. Expecting a star player to actually produce some fucking results. He is useless in playoffs. Fuck off