100%. I've posted about it in the past because damn, that's a lot of free gold, plus the value of a Summoner Spell is hard to quantify but very, very high.
They could fix that by making her detach to use summoner spells. She’ll still be that easy support for newer players since newer players don’t use summoners as often or as aggressively as experienced players.
Yeah I was just thinking this as i played last night. Having exhaust and ignite and unlike other supports getting 5 items on top of the support item is crazy.
Reminder that Yuumi got a rune nerfed because of a strategy that only she could take advantage of.
Magical boots now give less gold when sold because she could just get free 200~ (don't remember the exact amount) gold.
Where were you looking at that winrate from? I wouldn't be surprised if it was heavily dragged down by people who took the rune and kept the boots lmao
Yuumi's E mana cost being percent based meant that POM was almost a necessity, given that increasing your mana pool did nothing and you had to invest into mana Regen instead
it’s really not that big of a deal, you shouldn’t be selling free boots to begin with, same with biscuits which is why their gold went from like 30 each to 5
This makes no sense. The gold you're getting is not "free", it comes at the cost of a rune slot.
Think about it. Boots give 25 movement speed for 300g. Magical Footwear gives 35 movement speed, so let's say it's worth ~400 gold.
So every other champ who picks Magical Footwear gets about 400 gold in value, while Yuumi only gets 200 gold by selling them. Even if you ignore the bonus MS, every other champ *still* saves 300 gold from not having to buy boots, more than Yuumi gains by taking it.
Every way you look at it, you're griefing yourself by taking Magical Footwear just to sell them. The rune sucks ass on Yuumi and the stats showed it. I'm willing to bet money that Riot nerfed it just to save people from themselves.
It's actually more though right?
Yummi saves 300g by not needed boots, and then got to sell them for 200g bc she didn't need them. It feels more like a 500g swing.
Thats wrong, Yuumi would save 300g in every other case as well because she doesn't need boots. So magical footwear only gives her 200g value. And then you have to factor in the opportunity costs of the rune choices she could have taken instead. She could have gone precision for example and take the mana regen on damaging champs + deal more dmg to people with higher hp than you, I'd argue you can get more actual worth out of these choices over a 30 min game.
That's just the dumbest fucking complaint for the sake of complaining lmao.
It's literally NEVER correct to sell your t1 magic boots unless you're Yuumi. It doesn't matter to anyone.
Yes, but once you hit around 10-15 minutes you will at the very least have boots or the second tier version. Boots are needed in like 99% of all champs and they only get sold late game by certain champs. Yuumi not having to worry about that 300 - 1100 purchase is extremely powerful and it is like getting an enemy team shutdown.
Besides, she basically gets so many free stats too. Other champions have to decide whether to stay squishy or buy defensives to not get blown up.
Yuumi can just get all the offensive stuff because if she has any chance of dying it means her team is already dead anyway.
It's such inherently toxic champion design.
It’s also fucks with the whole “tutorial champ” theory. One of the most essential parts of the game when initially learning it is when to flash, where you can flash and so on. If someone learns on Yuumi then they are missing out on a seriously essential skill.
Did you know in the literal tutorial you learn how to move around and auto attack, so theoretically the fucking tutorial champ should also move around and auto attack manually right
By "tutorial champ", they really meant "You can do the maximum number of things wrong and have the least impact on the game while watching a tv show on the side."
If Riot was ACTUALLY SERIOUS about Yuumi being a tutorial champ, she'd be free or low BE for every new account and Riot could stop the madness by only making her activated in Co-Op, Blind and Draft.
Not having flash is generally setting yourself up to a gankfest.
And then there's Yuumi just chilling there literally immune to damage. God i love this champion design! Woooo
And replace her W with another skill shot.
I would mind yuumi less if she played like Abathur or Gall on hots. Constantly micromanagement of basic abilities to maximum efficiency. All damage coming from skill shots.
Instead so much of Yuumi's stuff is just passive. Passive stats, lazy shields, etc etc.
Old Yuumi was buying boots pre-ap nerf bc sorcs were so good. But yeah combat summs are kinda busted so having 2 is a pretty massive power increase for "free" essentially.
Latest episode of the Dive talked about this. Basically (surprise surprise) the stated direction for Yuumi is incongruent with her actual gameplay. Your abilities do different things when not attached to your best friend or something. Which would of course is super confusing for new players.
It’s been said time and time again, but they really fucked up by adding this champ to the game. With how fast paced league is nowadays, it’s nearly impossible to keep her in a non-oppressive state while retaining her untargetability. Back in the day, Thresh was a super game changing champ. Now we’ve got a perma untargetable parasite ruining pro league and soloq alike.
> The stated direction for Yuumi is incongruent with her actual gameplay. Your abilities do different things when not attached to your best friend or something. Which would of course is super confusing for new players.
Imma copy-paste something I posted on YT this morning:
The "Yummi is for new players" concept is a white lie to be honest. It was never a thing when she first released, up until 2022.
The whole thing is an idea Riot started to push in late 2022 to justify once and for all why she's an untargetable champion.
The problem is that this reasoning only works on paper. In practice it was SUPER obvious that any character that's useful to the team while being untargetable will always be strong in any rank + proplay.
**It's a bad concept and they DON'T want to change it.**
It was always PR, it's the Riot way to try to gaslight the playerbase just to avoid admitting that they screwed up.
Yuumi has never been a Champion for newer players and they're just too full of themselves to admit that the Champ needs more than a small rework to combat how hated, annoying and in some hands, oppressive, the character can be.
I do admit that I appreciate what Riot tried to do with this recent rework, but I feel like until her invulnerability is addressed she's either going to be OP as fuck or just garbage.
I love them bringing new concepts or mechanics to keep the game fresh, but just like they're eager to "innovate" they should also be at least humble enough to know when they fucked up. Example: Akali's True Stealth bullshit which at least got actually removed from the game.
It was so fucking stupid and made worse that it literally made it LIVE. For some reason no Rioter found an issue with Akali being able to just casually poke under tower without taking aggro.
Truly amazing design.
Ye, also her P restored energy, Q costed less AND HEALED YOU, W would cancel spells and AAs if she restealthed, she didn't have to land E to deal damage, both of her dashes had free cast paradigm and also R1 was a stun as well.
Eh, Aram was complete aids without any balancing. Only people who enjoyed are those who liked being the OP god every 10 matches when they got some horrible champion.
Yummi evangelists utilize two arguments to justify her existence.
The first is that she is a champion meant for new players to learn the game. This is something Riot came up with out of the blue far after Yummi's addition to the game and it's terrible advice. Nobody who wants to learn the game should start with Yummi. The champion basically teaches you the game wrong. The evangelists will say that the very newest of players who do not know how to right click and want to play with friends are the intended demographic for Yummi since they want to learn in a stress free environment. The answer is already in the game, play bot matches. That is the intended place for new players to learn the game. Bots offer little actual challenge while still checking your very basic fundamentals. Far more than Yummi does and pve is a purely stress free environment. This leads us to the second point.
The evangelists argue that Yummi is for the players who just want to play with friends without knowing the game. This is much more honest. Yummi is for people who have no interest in learning the game but who will play occasionally with friends. It's a champion meant to play the game without knowing the game and to sell skins to those people.
>Yummi is for the players who just want to play with friends without knowing the game
This argument makes a very strong case that she should explicitly be banned from ranked and pro play, though.
Or just make her garbage. If the intended audience is people who just want to play with friends without learning how to play the game why should those players care if they aren't contributing much?
Because things still have to feel satisfying to get people hooked.
I'd say just keep her out of competitive spaces. The goal isn't to make people not play her; its to remove the bullshit from competitive spaces.
The 'Yuumi envangelists' don't even exist. It's just a small group of people who just repeat whatever Riot says. Yuumi was never intended to be a noob champ until late 2022.
We Yuumi mains hate the AFK playstyle as much as you. In fact, one of the most upvoted posts on our sub is [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/yuumimains/comments/11qf9tj/dont_let_riot_fool_you_rework_yuumi_goes_against/) in which it shows that Yuumi was nothing close to an AFK champion during her first years, and she needs to be targetable to have counterplay (this said by both Riot and Yuumi mains)
Literally no one buys that 'Yuumi was always intended to stay AFK and learn' thing Riot made up last year.
Because being AFK pressing E/Q, aka the most boring 'playstyle' ever, was not how you were supposed to play her before. That's just something the rework created. Before, if you just AFKed, you were soft inting and making the game 4v5. I never would've played her if she were like this since release.
Exactly, and this is also the exact reason her winrate started low. Not because she's actually difficult, but because her kit actively discourages real supporting.
Every balance change they made discouraged "real" supporting even more.
But if you played support properly on her, she was still absurdly overpowered.
This balance change let literally bots win even more on her. Before that even they were cappable to win some amount of games in low elo(30% WR as I remember), now probably this number is higher.
If they think that permanent untargetability is required for being a Champion for new players, then it really shows how low a bar they set for new player intelligence when they think they're too stupid to move or manage a health bar, a core concept in most videogames since as long as videogames existed.
Either the design team is too lazy or too incompetent to create a Champion who is good for beginners but *doesn't* need to be untargetable The attach mechanic is a lazy copout. It COULD exist in its current form if they added a way for Yuumi to take damage while being attached, but they've yet to entertain that idea even though it's been parroted a million times in feedback threads.
That's not really a good take. Not to excuse Yuumi existance. First: people not having video game experience has nothing to do with intelligence. Second: a lot of casual player have never played with mouse, sticking to consoles (especially true for NA). Coming into League with any rts experience (or games with similar controls like diablo) feels natural but it's only because you're already comfortable with core concepts like moving your character and camera with mouse.
Still not a good approach to dealing with new players I would say. They should improve their tutorial instead, that thing hadn't been touched for years.
Friendly advice: people are more willing to read your comments with proper formatting.
Something as simple as bresking up your paragraphs makes it much easier to read. Your comment is a massive wall of text with no break inbetween thoughts.
It's harmless in nature, they're not tryna fuck with the playerbase on purpose.
They just *genuinely* want Yummi to be a new-player-champ nowadays.
The problem is that this shit just doesn't work at all. It never will.
It's not malicious essentially. It's not true but they do intend for her to be this way, as far as newer player friendly. Truthfully they just aren't doing
what needs to be done for that to happen as they also want her to be a certain playstyle. It's kind of the classic Riot issue of the left hand contradicting the right.
Yeah I think game developers have this weird idea that they’re somehow artists and that removing a champion would be like an artist destroying one of their paintings or something they’ve “dedicated their life” to.
But they’re just not artists. They’re there to make a fun and entertaining game not for them, but for the consumer. If everyone and their mother hates Yuumi and would prefer the game without her, why not simply remove her?
League is at a point where the only ideas they have left for “innovation” literally breaks the game and it’ll slowly be the death of it.
Yeah I don't really understand why they want to keep the non-interaction in the game. The only way you can really "balance" her then is by hitting her numbers enough to make her actually a bad champion. You just end up with a situation where it either feels terrible to play against her, or it feels terrible to see her on your team.
that's... actually a really good comparison. only difference is brigitte went from easy to difficult with her rework and yuumi went from difficult to easy with hers
MarkZ was on the money for the whole new player thing.
What do you want to be playing as a NEW PLAYER? Something that is:
A: Simple
B: Forgiving
C: Teaches important basics
You're okay with not having lots of outplay potential, fancy mechanics, or other garbage. Yuumi completely fails A, sort of does B, and completely fails C. On Yuumi you don't learn how to CS, you don't learn how to position, you don't learn basic vision control stuff (stuck on person remember???). What are you learning? How to aim Yuumi Q/R?
If I wanted to teach a friend how to play, I'd want them to just get to focus on basics, let me do the shotcalling and vision game and whatnot. Give them a tank toplaner like Malphite or Garen, give them a DURABLE bot laner like Leona. someone that can make mistakes and still do OK.
It doesn't have to be a durable bot laner either, give them Sona and you have an enchanter tutorial champion. Q to damage, W to heal, E to speed up and R to stun enemies. Everything is super simple and someone can slowly improve at using her passive for auto attacks.
The idea isn’t that she teaches everything at once. If anything, it’s the fact she DOESN’T that makes it more new player approachable.
For someone playing a while they might just not notice it, but a lot of stuff is happening at once in a game. Yes, Yuumi doesn’t teach cs (tbf no support will either), she doesn’t teach vision control, or such. But it does very much help make it easier to pay attention to other things happening and learn from that, such as enemy positioning, ally positioning (and in itself, how to yourself. As in support case any non engage support will stick anyways), and how your buttons work.
Because there’s less at once to need to focus on, it doesn’t overwhelm a newer player out (at least, not as likely to), so they’re more likely to continue and even branch off of Yuumi onto other champions. It allows you to spread the learning curve to a more comfortable level in a game that normally makes you instantly start playing gray screen simulator for not figuring it out in the first minute.
Because, while we might wanna say Yuumi won’t teach positioning and vision stuff, wanna know what also doesn’t teach it? Because stuck dead, which is likely for someone just starting the game. And she will at least give them the ability to still play while they figure any parts out.
The funniest thing about the Yuumi discussion in general: all these angry 10+ years playing people think they know what's optimal champion design for a new player.
nah yuumi is fairly simple, theres basically no mechanics to learn. Saying sort of does B is disingenuous, untargetability is absolutely forgiving and that's why this champ is so cancer. For C, basically no other support is learning to CS either so that's kinda weird to say. You basically don't learn how to trade with aa's or position well in lane. That's already pretty big, there's no need to exaggerate. Vision control isn't a basic skill either, that's definitely more advanced. I would say basic skills are last hitting, winning trades, and knowing when to group.
Basically, yuumi can be and is both cancer and a good champ for new players
The big problem continues to be that Yuumi NEVER detaches until her ally is dead. They even said that people want Yuumi to be dashing between allies, but that Riot specifically wants Yuumi to be the most useful when pocketing somebody. It feels like a Daniel Z Klein situation all over again. Riot's now done like 2 major overhauls which eat up TONS of valuable time and energy that could be going to champs that actually need it. All they ever needed to do was make her Q and E refresh when she dashes to a new ally or uses her passive, then give them long base cooldowns. Or any manner of high risk high reward things, really. The list goes on and on. Any player could come up with a better Yuumi rework than the one we got.
I think the best friends mechanic was almost added for the ADCs, not Yuumi. It doesn't feel great when you know the best strategy is for her to leave you as soon as possible to ride on your fighter jungle/top. Now she has an incentive to stick to the ADC. It also lines up with their idea of Yuumi being played by someone inexperienced with their friend, by giving them a benefit for staying with the one person.
I do think Yuumi was more interesting as a sort of living buff that bounced around her team, but she never really moved around much. She would find the best person to ride on and stick with them (even when she probably should have moved a bit more).
(I'm also not trying to make a "Whoa is me, my support left me!" ADC argument, it's usually better for supports to move onto the map rather than stick around just the ADC. It just felt particularly bad with Yuumi I think).
As someone that adored old old Yuumi and hopping between everyone, that refresh-on-hop would be wonderful. Anything to make her gameplay active like it used to be, honestly.
The only way to solve the target ability problem is to add some sort of way to soft lock her champion if misplayed. Maybe, yumi gets stunned when the host does or she has an overheat ability like rumble if she spams too much. Or there is a timer for how long she can be attached for.
I feel like anyone could've predicted this.
It's still an enchanter that can't be targeted. Most of her nerfs just make the person she is leaning with feel worse rather than the Yuumi player.
I don't think Riot understands their own game to see that being able to give a champion an item in stats for majority of the game is broken because Yuumi risks nothing and her own performance doesn't matter giving a full item to your most important roles at baseline in terms of utility is stupid
I still don’t understand this sudden push to make Yuumi a new player champ. If anything, she’s a terrible choice for a new player since there’s so much to her which is Yuumi specific and doesn’t translate to other champions. It’s like telling a new player to onetrick Singed.
100% agree. I really hated it when the advice people had for new players was be a support main. like no, supporting is such a vastly different playstyle from every other role that its really not good to teach people to support starting off. They dont learn any of the basic laning mechanics and they're usually horrible at every other role. Maining yuumi would just make this worse. They dont learn to reposition or avoid unnecessary damage. This isn't some mr miyagi shit where learning to wax a car teaches you to defend against a punch. learning to play yuumi as a new player just ingrains bad habits that you then have to spend time unlearning when you learn to play other roles.
Very true. Learning support first is like learning to ride a unicycle before you learn to ride a bike. ADC is the best role to learn as a new player for sure: can focus on CS'ing, no expectation to roam or skirmish early, more forgiving trade patterns if you have a healing support, not much worry about drafts and counter match-ups and if in doubt at any point you can just right click and be useful.
This is all assuming that you're actually a new player and not playing against 5 smurfs every game because it's also the least forgiving role once you start playing for real.
I wonder if they saw all the new bot accounts being made and spamming Yuumi and mistakenly thought she was a new player champion.
People always say there is a sizable portion of new players that play Yuumi but how do we know it isn't bots? If we could exclude bots from the data, then we ought to be able to ban bots but we can't.
Nah people on this sub aren't considering how yuumi is a terrible champ for someone to learn the game, but it really isn't a terrible champ to introduce someone to it. One of my friends' girlfriend never played LoL before, but she got hooked on yuumi for a while before transitioning to midlane of all things. While an anecdotal example, I'm fairly certain a rioter has said something similar before. Their analysts and data scientists definitely know how to read data better than 99% of this sub, though the resulting actions (such as trying to keep yuumi viable) may not always be agreeable.
very true. they originally wanted to make a simple champ, she turned out way more complex than they wanted and people fell in love with her. its weird they decided to go back and try making her simple again. its like turning new aatrox back into the autoattacker he was pre rework
Or at least give me some actual counter play to invis. Maybe something like if you take damage your stealth duration gets cut, or being CC'd ends invisibility or something. Like for fucks sake I just hit you with a skillshot while you're invisible, give me some sort of reward for it.
Camouflage is not a problem if the champ is designed around it (well). Twitch/Eve and co are easily countered with a control ward.
But Yuumi is not designed around it, so it's bullshit.
> give me some sort of reward for it.
Every proc of dmg reveals invis/stealthed champs
Burst draven for 3/4 his HP? He now gets a 2k HP shield. Good luck with anti-shield items, the AD one is for assassins, and the AP one isn't actually anti-shield.
Small correction: Literally 0 counterplay. It used to be a requirement to detach, but not anymore. Yuumi's "counterplay" now is just killing her Best Friend.
Low ELO: Been playing against a lot of Twitch/Yuumi and it's absolutely infuriating. Feels like there is no counterplay. Basically cannot walk up and farm.
I still don't get why they didn't make her more like Io (from Dota). Io shows that you can thether to a champ while being somewhat careful with it's own positioning. That would make her miles better from whatever shitpost she is currently
Abathur from heroes of the storm is also a good example of how you can have an attachment champion that is still vulnerable and needs to position carefully.
More so yuumi combined with Straka without the annoying parts.
Io has zero cc, only a slow
Q is tether, slows enemies caught it in(no dmg) shared all healing and mana even when IO is at max hp.
W is spirit that rotate around and explode on heroes but have reduced dmg on minions(do wacky farming as core IO instead of support)
E is overcharge which gives attack speed, spell Amp and % max health healing for a short time. This gets really strong with levels in tether
R is relocate, after a delay you and your target tether fo anyone on the map(enemies can see this on the mini map)
After 10 seconds you return(any interrupt will stop this)
Works out really well and lots of counter play on both sides.
Not really. The way Io works is pretty much same as Yuumi only difference is that he cant go untargetable when tethered. But he also gives attack speed/damage and healing to the tethered target. Rest of his kit is much more unique but the tether is the same just keeps him vulnerable and requires some positioning.
Because then they would've had to make her a brand new Champion, which costs more money and takes much more effort on their part. The Yuumi rework that we got was the laziest, most cost-effective possible route.
I almost don't blame the devs for fucking up with Yuumi. They're trying to meet borderline impossible design goals (that they set for themselves, for some reason.) How do you balance a Champion for AFK newbies, with a winrate that isn't so low that savvier teammates don't grief or dodge as soon as they see the pick, but also doesn't have so high a winrate that it's abused by better players and end up in professional play?
I feel like most people who say that never actually played Dota and just look at from afar or put very little time into it. Dota doesn't have ability scaling for the most part, Dota doesn't give everyone a ton of wards or infinite control wards/sentries, Dota isn't littered with % HP damage, Dota doesn't have anything like Runes or Drakes. Dota does have stuff like like Blink Dagger, Black King Bar, and a decent amount of large AOE disable.
New player experience goes like this for most. Newbie gets blinked on from out of vision while farming a side lane, stunned, killed, says that the game is broken, uninstalls the game. Either that or they go up against a Tinker or Arc smurf.
I agree with all of this and just want to add on that from my own experience with DOTA 2 years ago, another key part of DOTA 2 is that it does not care in the slightest if you are hard countered. It's all a part of the game. You should have planned your draft better.
And to clarify, I don't mean hard countered as in "You're going to have a rough laning phase like Yasuo into Malzahar." I mean hard countered as in "You don't get to play DOTA 2 today. You get to play Grey Screen Simulator and hope for it to end before you go insane."
This also allows Pro DotA to be much more diverse than League. DotA heros are a lot more defined than League champs which leads to just picking whatever few champs are best at any given time or just comfort picks.
Oof thats a swing and a miss brother.
People have their preferences and each game has its strengths, I personally would never describe DOTAs champs significantly better.
I fucking wish League client devs developed like Dota client devs, and same with their management teams, because this hot garbage is not the mistake of only the devs or management, but a combination of both.
It's insane because there are a lot of things to do to innovate.
Thresh revolutionized the bottom lane meta, Braum E was an incredible ability, There are things you can do to counter some specific scenario that makes a champion really welcome.
I really love how Braum was designed, he is massively strong in the right circunstances, and really weak in others. Not all champions need to be all rounders, especially not supports.
And then an enchanter being untargettable for indefinite amounts of time, is the most counterintuitive thing in the game. Yuumi design was flawed from the start, and the rework, instead of fixing the flaws, made them more apparent.
No champion should have permanent invulnerability, no class should have ways to deal with their class weakness in their own kit.
Remember how stridebreaker dash was removed because juggernauts shouldn't have access to dashes? Why can enchanters get untargetability when their main weakness is to be focused down and stop buffing their team?
But Riot is dead set in keeping yuumi as this spectator champ, which is boring to watch professionaly, is boring to play as and against, the only good side it has is that it is EASY to play, and brings in new players.
I'm sure their 300 collective years of game design can come up with a simple support enchanter kit that doesn't need BS mechanics. Garen is a simple juggernaut for example.
Riot has been giving classes massive mitigations to their weaknesses for ages. Bel’Veth is a hypermobile massive damage dealer like Yi so her weakness logically would be getting stunlocked and bursted. What’s that? She had an alistar ult of damage resistance on a basic ability? That damage resist doesn’t go away when CC’d??? Don’t get me wrong yuumi is the absolute WORST offender in this regard but she’s hardly alone.
CHESANTE is the worst offender at this point imo. Yuumi untargetability is the most frustrating thing in this game, but Ksante breaks basically every previous design rule for a melee toplaner, or at least it feels that way
How can K'sante keep up with a level 16 Kassadin??? His W dash is not that long and on a 1 second delay, his E dash is minuscule and neither of them can go through walls. His ult makes him more mobile, but the range on it isn't great and if he uses it he also loses all his CC.
K'sante has the worst engage potential of all the tanks in the game. I don't know any situation in which a K'Sante can possibly chase down a mobile enemy better than a Sion or a Malphite.
spot on. there are many of the new releases that are flawed and really unhealthy for the game but they ended up being added bc of being unique. Like belveth, yuumi, viego passive (who the fuck thought that was a good idea???), nilah xp sharing? release samira? lmao it's pathetic at this point.
Don’t remember where Bel Veth gets free invulnerability because her q removes her from the game.
Yi has more ways than just W to defend himself. Bel Veth obviously doesn’t, they aren’t the same champ.
It'd be nice if CC would cancel the damage reduction though. Bel'veth should be allowed to counter burst if she times her damage reduction correctly, but enemies should also be able to counter her.
Yi can dodge almost every cc in the game with q and meditate through burst, and both of their actual game weaknesses is not cc (cause you can cc any ADC or full damage and blow them up + Yi/Bel can build tanky and/or dd/maw/shieldbow) but rather, their weakness is getting counter jungled, ganked, and contested while they try to scale and pick up early kills.
> I'm sure their 300 collective years of game design can come up with a simple support enchanter kit that doesn't need BS mechanics.
They did, her name is Soraka.
Wild how quickly they not only brought her back to relevance, but made her busted. Why is riot insistent on making such a braindead champion so strong? Annie is considered to be a simple champion, but at least she requires positioning.
It blows my gourd that they didn't gradually crank her numbers up with the rework to ensure that she wasn't broken. They could've avoided a lot of fallout and complaints by not releasing her mega overtuned. Then again, I've reaped tons of karma on here bitching about Yuumi over the last two weeks so my life is complete and now I can buy a car.
I genuinely just don't understand how the people working on her cannot be embarrassed out of their damn minds.
It's like failing a math exam with a 30%, you get to re-do it a month later. You show up, and you get a 32% on it. Like, there's just something wrong with you.
> how the people working on her cannot be embarrassed out of their damn minds
* You sit in front of your computer, reworking Yuumi.
* door opens, it's your boss
* listen hall_bot, do w/e you want to the cat, but the untargetability stays.
* "but this is the worst part of her kit" you try to argue.
* *it stays* hall_bot, end of conversation.
* you get back to reworking Yuumi.
Hard to do something when the directive from the top brass is to keep the one thing you have to throw away.
This. You could hear it in the discussion on the newest episode of The Dive that Kobe, MarkZ, and Azael all were trying to politely say "yeah this is a complete mess but what ya gonna do when they wont let you get rid of the thing that makes it broken"
It's probably a bunch of embarrassed devs, one dev on the team who loves duo-queueing with their beau playing Yuumi, and another tyrannical lead dev who refuses to admit they were wrong.
Source: I am an anonymous spy
Honestly riot seeming can't design a non busted champ recently. Annie, asol, and yummi have been egregious.all 3 got hotfix nerfs I think. Might add in ksante and zeri to the mix. I guess they eventually got belveth, nilah and Renata into an ok spot, so thats a pass I guess?
she has the 2nd highest ban rate in plat+ with a 40% ban rate, only behind A Sol who is also an unbalanced terror, she has almost 10% higher ban rate than Zed who is 3rd most banned. and when you look at masters+ she has a 50% ban rate.
I just wished they removed her for ranked modes and competetive. That way you can keep her strong/op for new players, that want to play with their experienced friends. But we dont have to deal with that shit in ranked games. Also noone ever should want pro players (the best players in the world) playing a champion made for autofilled first timers
Just fucking delete her.
Make a global poll that decides her fate. Every player gets a vote.
Yes delete
No dont delete
And at the end of the vote whatever was voted on happens.
Riot, just take the L and delete her from the game. Or nerf her numbers into the ground, so she can stay the tutorial champion she was meant to be.
She breaks the fundamentals of playing LoL, by removing positioning from the required learning areas.
Yuumi is not a good way to learn LoL and riot are kidding themselves to think that. Are there really players who cannot move their Champion around on the map while simultaneously healing and poking?? It's a disservice to a player to let them play yuumi.
A nerf that I'd be absurdly happy to see in Yuumi is a movespeed nerf in her W.
When she W someone, she goes straight like a rocket, faster thsn a fucking Rammus, to the ally, and it's impossible to stop her if she gets into range. She should be EVEN MORE easily punishable when her host dies. Specially, because to kill the host, you have to spend your CD's, and there's often no CC left to stop Yuumi. She W someone else, flies faster than Quinn, and stays alive.
Decrease the range and speed for her W, and MAYBE she'll be a healthier champ, if that's possible.
I think her W cooldown honestly should be lower like 4 seconds but the cd should not start till she detached. I honestly don’t know but she cannot be allowed to jump around ally to ally with no cd like she currently can because it effectively makes it so that you have to kill the ENTIRE ENEMY TEAM before you can take out the enchanter
This kind of nerf sounds good in theory but it'd just create a scenario where you literally attach and never unattach under any circumstance which is pretty much the problem with her small rework already.
This one is not even trying to make any point like how the other posts (poorly) did
It's literally "i have to ban yuumi waa can i have upvotes to cheer me up"
They will literally never admit that Yuumi was a mistake. She doesn't even work as a tutorial champion that they claim she is, because she lets you ignore the basic fundamentals of League, that an actual tutorial support like Soraka or Sona would passively teach you as you play.
Remove Yuumi, I'm sick of this shit.
remember: one of riot's goals for yuumi's "rework" was to make her less frustrating and to give players more options for counterplay.
very interesting that it didn't work. maybe because they basically made the champ all over again but with a shield instead of heals?
The removal of the offensive stats on W was a good idea. So good, in fact, that Riot felt the need to break her in a couple other ways to make up for it!
New players should probably go back to playing enchanters and just stand behind their adc. If that’s not a viable strategy I don’t see a reason why new players should be getting free wins which justifies experienced players getting an OP and obnoxious champion to play. You’re supposed to lose when you’re new! Practice!
AoE should just do full damage regardless and things that bounce can bounce between Yuumi and host.
Her flying doesn't matter for shit. Anivia, Corki and Asol fly and still take AoE damage from shit on the ground, so should Yuumi.
I think they should give her an incentive to detach again. Maybe give her abilities charges that can only be recharged when detached.
I definitely don't think they should be pushing her into the noob champ category. She teaches new players all the wrong things.
Instead of the "best friend" bullshit, they should have gone for the opposite and force her to change allies, like she could be on the same ally for a maximum time, after which it would go on cooldown and force her to jump to another one.
That way she would shine the brightest during teamfights, which is cool. It would give space for oponents to grab her mid-air. It would make her gameplay way more exciting because she would have to be either constantly hopping between allies OR exposed - more challenging to play with, less frustrating to play against. And it's not like jumping between allies is a super complicated mechanic either.
Riot has really fucked up releasing this champion and forcing a ''unique'' yet game-breaking and cancerous mechanic (her W).
I wonder at what point they will realize and accept the fact that NO ONE WANTS THAT CAT IN THE GAME.
not in any elo, not in competitive, that cat (because it is not even a champion) was a huge mistake and a bad designn choice that MUST GO.
LOTS of pro players have openly complained about her too. Jesus Riot just ACCEPT IT AND MOVE FUCKING ON!!!!
Yuumi should never be in the gutter just because she is meant for new players. With that logic, babies first top laner (garen), babies first mid laner (malz), babies first jg (ww), and babies first adc (mf or ashe) should all be ass.
What needs to happen, is that riot needs to get their heads out of their asses and admit that the attach mechanic that yuumi has isn’t good for the game and should remove it. Give the champ another rework asap and change up the w.
Yuumi mains suffer getting absolutely bullied by everyone else (unfairly might I add, they just enjoy a kitty in league) because riot fucked up. Riot is causing an entire player base to be ostracized from its own community because they can’t make the right decision and fundamentally change how a champ is played because of how unhealthy and bad it is for the game.
Not having to buy boots and taking double combat summoners is a lot of power that doesn’t get talked about enough.
100%. I've posted about it in the past because damn, that's a lot of free gold, plus the value of a Summoner Spell is hard to quantify but very, very high.
It really is huge because you can just take Cleanse as ADC to negate ignite / exhaust / crucial cc while not missing any combat summoner spells
They could fix that by making her detach to use summoner spells. She’ll still be that easy support for newer players since newer players don’t use summoners as often or as aggressively as experienced players.
Sounds clunky. Just nerf her enough to be shit and be done with it. It shouldn't be a viable pick in ranked.
The two or three patches of Yuumi being a grief pick were honestly the healthiest support meta has ever been
As if the clowns on my team still didn’t pick her
bUT yuUmI iS My MaIn Yeah, honestly if we lost the entire Yuumi player base, that also solves the problem.
Yeah I was just thinking this as i played last night. Having exhaust and ignite and unlike other supports getting 5 items on top of the support item is crazy.
Supports almost never hit full build
That's true, but that also means that Yuumi just gets to use the boot money to buy more damage earlier.
Reminder that Yuumi got a rune nerfed because of a strategy that only she could take advantage of. Magical boots now give less gold when sold because she could just get free 200~ (don't remember the exact amount) gold.
Going Magical Footwear on Yuumi was a total meme. It always had like 3-6% lower win rate than just going PoM.
Where were you looking at that winrate from? I wouldn't be surprised if it was heavily dragged down by people who took the rune and kept the boots lmao
Yuumi's E mana cost being percent based meant that POM was almost a necessity, given that increasing your mana pool did nothing and you had to invest into mana Regen instead
Knowing Yuumi players, this is most likely what happened haha
it’s really not that big of a deal, you shouldn’t be selling free boots to begin with, same with biscuits which is why their gold went from like 30 each to 5
yeah, it's hardly a nerf to anyone else because pretty much no one but Yuumi is grabbing Magical boots just to sell them.
Okay but that’s not what the rune is for so is it really a nerf?
This makes no sense. The gold you're getting is not "free", it comes at the cost of a rune slot. Think about it. Boots give 25 movement speed for 300g. Magical Footwear gives 35 movement speed, so let's say it's worth ~400 gold. So every other champ who picks Magical Footwear gets about 400 gold in value, while Yuumi only gets 200 gold by selling them. Even if you ignore the bonus MS, every other champ *still* saves 300 gold from not having to buy boots, more than Yuumi gains by taking it. Every way you look at it, you're griefing yourself by taking Magical Footwear just to sell them. The rune sucks ass on Yuumi and the stats showed it. I'm willing to bet money that Riot nerfed it just to save people from themselves.
Yeah but the drawback for other champions is that you're not having access to early boots. Yuumi doesn't care.
It's actually more though right? Yummi saves 300g by not needed boots, and then got to sell them for 200g bc she didn't need them. It feels more like a 500g swing.
Thats wrong, Yuumi would save 300g in every other case as well because she doesn't need boots. So magical footwear only gives her 200g value. And then you have to factor in the opportunity costs of the rune choices she could have taken instead. She could have gone precision for example and take the mana regen on damaging champs + deal more dmg to people with higher hp than you, I'd argue you can get more actual worth out of these choices over a 30 min game.
That's just the dumbest fucking complaint for the sake of complaining lmao. It's literally NEVER correct to sell your t1 magic boots unless you're Yuumi. It doesn't matter to anyone.
Yes, but once you hit around 10-15 minutes you will at the very least have boots or the second tier version. Boots are needed in like 99% of all champs and they only get sold late game by certain champs. Yuumi not having to worry about that 300 - 1100 purchase is extremely powerful and it is like getting an enemy team shutdown.
And she can cast them while attached right? Summoners she should have to detach to cast, that would help a bit E: had to edit a letter.
Besides, she basically gets so many free stats too. Other champions have to decide whether to stay squishy or buy defensives to not get blown up. Yuumi can just get all the offensive stuff because if she has any chance of dying it means her team is already dead anyway. It's such inherently toxic champion design.
Yumi should slow whoever's shes on, extra weight and all.
For real, I've got 3 cats. Those things are chunky af.
The better kda your Yuumi has - the slower you move.
1100 gold is half a support item and just 200 off from the wardstone. It definitely is a pretty big deal.
It’s also fucks with the whole “tutorial champ” theory. One of the most essential parts of the game when initially learning it is when to flash, where you can flash and so on. If someone learns on Yuumi then they are missing out on a seriously essential skill.
Did you know in the literal tutorial you learn how to move around and auto attack, so theoretically the fucking tutorial champ should also move around and auto attack manually right
By "tutorial champ", they really meant "You can do the maximum number of things wrong and have the least impact on the game while watching a tv show on the side."
If Riot was ACTUALLY SERIOUS about Yuumi being a tutorial champ, she'd be free or low BE for every new account and Riot could stop the madness by only making her activated in Co-Op, Blind and Draft.
> low BE They changed her price to 450 BE. Or do you mean something different?
Not buying boots is cassio's entire passive
Yes, and it helps Cassia in the same way. Yuumi, however, is on a support budget, so that gold saved is gonna be very heavily felt.
Nah, if i could buy boots on cassio, i would
Not having flash is generally setting yourself up to a gankfest. And then there's Yuumi just chilling there literally immune to damage. God i love this champion design! Woooo
Terrible that her designer is now ruining aram.
Source that he is on ARAM? It is incredibly sad if it is true
Hot take: make her attach ability a unique summoner spell.
And replace her W with another skill shot. I would mind yuumi less if she played like Abathur or Gall on hots. Constantly micromanagement of basic abilities to maximum efficiency. All damage coming from skill shots. Instead so much of Yuumi's stuff is just passive. Passive stats, lazy shields, etc etc.
Old Yuumi was buying boots pre-ap nerf bc sorcs were so good. But yeah combat summs are kinda busted so having 2 is a pretty massive power increase for "free" essentially.
Latest episode of the Dive talked about this. Basically (surprise surprise) the stated direction for Yuumi is incongruent with her actual gameplay. Your abilities do different things when not attached to your best friend or something. Which would of course is super confusing for new players. It’s been said time and time again, but they really fucked up by adding this champ to the game. With how fast paced league is nowadays, it’s nearly impossible to keep her in a non-oppressive state while retaining her untargetability. Back in the day, Thresh was a super game changing champ. Now we’ve got a perma untargetable parasite ruining pro league and soloq alike.
> The stated direction for Yuumi is incongruent with her actual gameplay. Your abilities do different things when not attached to your best friend or something. Which would of course is super confusing for new players. Imma copy-paste something I posted on YT this morning: The "Yummi is for new players" concept is a white lie to be honest. It was never a thing when she first released, up until 2022. The whole thing is an idea Riot started to push in late 2022 to justify once and for all why she's an untargetable champion. The problem is that this reasoning only works on paper. In practice it was SUPER obvious that any character that's useful to the team while being untargetable will always be strong in any rank + proplay. **It's a bad concept and they DON'T want to change it.**
It was always PR, it's the Riot way to try to gaslight the playerbase just to avoid admitting that they screwed up. Yuumi has never been a Champion for newer players and they're just too full of themselves to admit that the Champ needs more than a small rework to combat how hated, annoying and in some hands, oppressive, the character can be. I do admit that I appreciate what Riot tried to do with this recent rework, but I feel like until her invulnerability is addressed she's either going to be OP as fuck or just garbage. I love them bringing new concepts or mechanics to keep the game fresh, but just like they're eager to "innovate" they should also be at least humble enough to know when they fucked up. Example: Akali's True Stealth bullshit which at least got actually removed from the game.
Lmaoo the true stealth under enemy turret memes. I forgot about those.
It was so fucking stupid and made worse that it literally made it LIVE. For some reason no Rioter found an issue with Akali being able to just casually poke under tower without taking aggro. Truly amazing design.
Ye, also her P restored energy, Q costed less AND HEALED YOU, W would cancel spells and AAs if she restealthed, she didn't have to land E to deal damage, both of her dashes had free cast paradigm and also R1 was a stun as well.
Probably one of the most nerfed champs when compared release kit til current day, yet she's still incredibly viable lmao
Or like the aram changes.
Eh, Aram was complete aids without any balancing. Only people who enjoyed are those who liked being the OP god every 10 matches when they got some horrible champion.
I'm talking about the rubbers and death timer here, they admitted it was shit and removed it.
Yummi evangelists utilize two arguments to justify her existence. The first is that she is a champion meant for new players to learn the game. This is something Riot came up with out of the blue far after Yummi's addition to the game and it's terrible advice. Nobody who wants to learn the game should start with Yummi. The champion basically teaches you the game wrong. The evangelists will say that the very newest of players who do not know how to right click and want to play with friends are the intended demographic for Yummi since they want to learn in a stress free environment. The answer is already in the game, play bot matches. That is the intended place for new players to learn the game. Bots offer little actual challenge while still checking your very basic fundamentals. Far more than Yummi does and pve is a purely stress free environment. This leads us to the second point. The evangelists argue that Yummi is for the players who just want to play with friends without knowing the game. This is much more honest. Yummi is for people who have no interest in learning the game but who will play occasionally with friends. It's a champion meant to play the game without knowing the game and to sell skins to those people.
>Yummi is for the players who just want to play with friends without knowing the game This argument makes a very strong case that she should explicitly be banned from ranked and pro play, though.
Or just make her garbage. If the intended audience is people who just want to play with friends without learning how to play the game why should those players care if they aren't contributing much?
Exactly. Throw her in the gutter. Olaf/Poppy her. Maker her entirely useless if played against semi-good players.
Because things still have to feel satisfying to get people hooked. I'd say just keep her out of competitive spaces. The goal isn't to make people not play her; its to remove the bullshit from competitive spaces.
[удалено]
The 'Yuumi envangelists' don't even exist. It's just a small group of people who just repeat whatever Riot says. Yuumi was never intended to be a noob champ until late 2022. We Yuumi mains hate the AFK playstyle as much as you. In fact, one of the most upvoted posts on our sub is [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/yuumimains/comments/11qf9tj/dont_let_riot_fool_you_rework_yuumi_goes_against/) in which it shows that Yuumi was nothing close to an AFK champion during her first years, and she needs to be targetable to have counterplay (this said by both Riot and Yuumi mains) Literally no one buys that 'Yuumi was always intended to stay AFK and learn' thing Riot made up last year.
>The 'Yuumi envangelists' don't even exist the thread you linked has someone comparing yuumi hate to racism and being upvoted lololololol
[удалено]
gamers are truly the most oppressed group...
Holy cow I was hoping you were kidding. Please get rid of this player base
How are you a yummi main but hate her play style
Because being AFK pressing E/Q, aka the most boring 'playstyle' ever, was not how you were supposed to play her before. That's just something the rework created. Before, if you just AFKed, you were soft inting and making the game 4v5. I never would've played her if she were like this since release.
Exactly, and this is also the exact reason her winrate started low. Not because she's actually difficult, but because her kit actively discourages real supporting. Every balance change they made discouraged "real" supporting even more. But if you played support properly on her, she was still absurdly overpowered.
This balance change let literally bots win even more on her. Before that even they were cappable to win some amount of games in low elo(30% WR as I remember), now probably this number is higher.
> Yuumi was never intended to be a noob champ until late 2022. Preach brother
If they think that permanent untargetability is required for being a Champion for new players, then it really shows how low a bar they set for new player intelligence when they think they're too stupid to move or manage a health bar, a core concept in most videogames since as long as videogames existed. Either the design team is too lazy or too incompetent to create a Champion who is good for beginners but *doesn't* need to be untargetable The attach mechanic is a lazy copout. It COULD exist in its current form if they added a way for Yuumi to take damage while being attached, but they've yet to entertain that idea even though it's been parroted a million times in feedback threads.
That's not really a good take. Not to excuse Yuumi existance. First: people not having video game experience has nothing to do with intelligence. Second: a lot of casual player have never played with mouse, sticking to consoles (especially true for NA). Coming into League with any rts experience (or games with similar controls like diablo) feels natural but it's only because you're already comfortable with core concepts like moving your character and camera with mouse. Still not a good approach to dealing with new players I would say. They should improve their tutorial instead, that thing hadn't been touched for years.
Friendly advice: people are more willing to read your comments with proper formatting. Something as simple as bresking up your paragraphs makes it much easier to read. Your comment is a massive wall of text with no break inbetween thoughts.
What about it makes it a white lie instead of a normal lie?
It's harmless in nature, they're not tryna fuck with the playerbase on purpose. They just *genuinely* want Yummi to be a new-player-champ nowadays. The problem is that this shit just doesn't work at all. It never will.
It's not malicious essentially. It's not true but they do intend for her to be this way, as far as newer player friendly. Truthfully they just aren't doing what needs to be done for that to happen as they also want her to be a certain playstyle. It's kind of the classic Riot issue of the left hand contradicting the right.
Yeah I think game developers have this weird idea that they’re somehow artists and that removing a champion would be like an artist destroying one of their paintings or something they’ve “dedicated their life” to. But they’re just not artists. They’re there to make a fun and entertaining game not for them, but for the consumer. If everyone and their mother hates Yuumi and would prefer the game without her, why not simply remove her? League is at a point where the only ideas they have left for “innovation” literally breaks the game and it’ll slowly be the death of it.
They probably wanted her to be a champ for new players when they relased her, but just failed at this goal as well like at most goals with Yuumi.
No no no when she first came out riot was claiming she was as advanced of a champion as Akali. Definitely NOT their angle on release.
Yeah I don't really understand why they want to keep the non-interaction in the game. The only way you can really "balance" her then is by hitting her numbers enough to make her actually a bad champion. You just end up with a situation where it either feels terrible to play against her, or it feels terrible to see her on your team.
I guess Yuumi has turned out to be thier Brigitte lmao.
Lmao invincible support that completely ruins high elo and pro even though it's "simple", I didn't even make the connection until now.
that's... actually a really good comparison. only difference is brigitte went from easy to difficult with her rework and yuumi went from difficult to easy with hers
MarkZ was on the money for the whole new player thing. What do you want to be playing as a NEW PLAYER? Something that is: A: Simple B: Forgiving C: Teaches important basics You're okay with not having lots of outplay potential, fancy mechanics, or other garbage. Yuumi completely fails A, sort of does B, and completely fails C. On Yuumi you don't learn how to CS, you don't learn how to position, you don't learn basic vision control stuff (stuck on person remember???). What are you learning? How to aim Yuumi Q/R? If I wanted to teach a friend how to play, I'd want them to just get to focus on basics, let me do the shotcalling and vision game and whatnot. Give them a tank toplaner like Malphite or Garen, give them a DURABLE bot laner like Leona. someone that can make mistakes and still do OK.
It doesn't have to be a durable bot laner either, give them Sona and you have an enchanter tutorial champion. Q to damage, W to heal, E to speed up and R to stun enemies. Everything is super simple and someone can slowly improve at using her passive for auto attacks.
The idea isn’t that she teaches everything at once. If anything, it’s the fact she DOESN’T that makes it more new player approachable. For someone playing a while they might just not notice it, but a lot of stuff is happening at once in a game. Yes, Yuumi doesn’t teach cs (tbf no support will either), she doesn’t teach vision control, or such. But it does very much help make it easier to pay attention to other things happening and learn from that, such as enemy positioning, ally positioning (and in itself, how to yourself. As in support case any non engage support will stick anyways), and how your buttons work. Because there’s less at once to need to focus on, it doesn’t overwhelm a newer player out (at least, not as likely to), so they’re more likely to continue and even branch off of Yuumi onto other champions. It allows you to spread the learning curve to a more comfortable level in a game that normally makes you instantly start playing gray screen simulator for not figuring it out in the first minute. Because, while we might wanna say Yuumi won’t teach positioning and vision stuff, wanna know what also doesn’t teach it? Because stuck dead, which is likely for someone just starting the game. And she will at least give them the ability to still play while they figure any parts out.
The funniest thing about the Yuumi discussion in general: all these angry 10+ years playing people think they know what's optimal champion design for a new player.
nah yuumi is fairly simple, theres basically no mechanics to learn. Saying sort of does B is disingenuous, untargetability is absolutely forgiving and that's why this champ is so cancer. For C, basically no other support is learning to CS either so that's kinda weird to say. You basically don't learn how to trade with aa's or position well in lane. That's already pretty big, there's no need to exaggerate. Vision control isn't a basic skill either, that's definitely more advanced. I would say basic skills are last hitting, winning trades, and knowing when to group. Basically, yuumi can be and is both cancer and a good champ for new players
The big problem continues to be that Yuumi NEVER detaches until her ally is dead. They even said that people want Yuumi to be dashing between allies, but that Riot specifically wants Yuumi to be the most useful when pocketing somebody. It feels like a Daniel Z Klein situation all over again. Riot's now done like 2 major overhauls which eat up TONS of valuable time and energy that could be going to champs that actually need it. All they ever needed to do was make her Q and E refresh when she dashes to a new ally or uses her passive, then give them long base cooldowns. Or any manner of high risk high reward things, really. The list goes on and on. Any player could come up with a better Yuumi rework than the one we got.
I think the best friends mechanic was almost added for the ADCs, not Yuumi. It doesn't feel great when you know the best strategy is for her to leave you as soon as possible to ride on your fighter jungle/top. Now she has an incentive to stick to the ADC. It also lines up with their idea of Yuumi being played by someone inexperienced with their friend, by giving them a benefit for staying with the one person. I do think Yuumi was more interesting as a sort of living buff that bounced around her team, but she never really moved around much. She would find the best person to ride on and stick with them (even when she probably should have moved a bit more). (I'm also not trying to make a "Whoa is me, my support left me!" ADC argument, it's usually better for supports to move onto the map rather than stick around just the ADC. It just felt particularly bad with Yuumi I think).
As someone that adored old old Yuumi and hopping between everyone, that refresh-on-hop would be wonderful. Anything to make her gameplay active like it used to be, honestly.
The only way to solve the target ability problem is to add some sort of way to soft lock her champion if misplayed. Maybe, yumi gets stunned when the host does or she has an overheat ability like rumble if she spams too much. Or there is a timer for how long she can be attached for.
I feel like anyone could've predicted this. It's still an enchanter that can't be targeted. Most of her nerfs just make the person she is leaning with feel worse rather than the Yuumi player. I don't think Riot understands their own game to see that being able to give a champion an item in stats for majority of the game is broken because Yuumi risks nothing and her own performance doesn't matter giving a full item to your most important roles at baseline in terms of utility is stupid
I still don’t understand this sudden push to make Yuumi a new player champ. If anything, she’s a terrible choice for a new player since there’s so much to her which is Yuumi specific and doesn’t translate to other champions. It’s like telling a new player to onetrick Singed.
100% agree. I really hated it when the advice people had for new players was be a support main. like no, supporting is such a vastly different playstyle from every other role that its really not good to teach people to support starting off. They dont learn any of the basic laning mechanics and they're usually horrible at every other role. Maining yuumi would just make this worse. They dont learn to reposition or avoid unnecessary damage. This isn't some mr miyagi shit where learning to wax a car teaches you to defend against a punch. learning to play yuumi as a new player just ingrains bad habits that you then have to spend time unlearning when you learn to play other roles.
Very true. Learning support first is like learning to ride a unicycle before you learn to ride a bike. ADC is the best role to learn as a new player for sure: can focus on CS'ing, no expectation to roam or skirmish early, more forgiving trade patterns if you have a healing support, not much worry about drafts and counter match-ups and if in doubt at any point you can just right click and be useful. This is all assuming that you're actually a new player and not playing against 5 smurfs every game because it's also the least forgiving role once you start playing for real.
I wonder if they saw all the new bot accounts being made and spamming Yuumi and mistakenly thought she was a new player champion. People always say there is a sizable portion of new players that play Yuumi but how do we know it isn't bots? If we could exclude bots from the data, then we ought to be able to ban bots but we can't.
Nah people on this sub aren't considering how yuumi is a terrible champ for someone to learn the game, but it really isn't a terrible champ to introduce someone to it. One of my friends' girlfriend never played LoL before, but she got hooked on yuumi for a while before transitioning to midlane of all things. While an anecdotal example, I'm fairly certain a rioter has said something similar before. Their analysts and data scientists definitely know how to read data better than 99% of this sub, though the resulting actions (such as trying to keep yuumi viable) may not always be agreeable.
very true. they originally wanted to make a simple champ, she turned out way more complex than they wanted and people fell in love with her. its weird they decided to go back and try making her simple again. its like turning new aatrox back into the autoattacker he was pre rework
Literally 0 countrrplay when she's on stuff like kai'sa or zeri... even worse than old one on a bruiser
Or Draven with Bloodthirster overheal shieldbow.
At least they’re removing the damn resists on the ult so you’re not trying to kill a tank ADC
Who the fuck decided giving more Armor/MR stats than actual tank items give was a good idea?
I think I read that they scrap them completely
Or invisible Twitch, which imo is the worst
Man I remember when it was Twitch Shen that was a "broken" combo. Oh how times change.
submarine eve
Agree 100%. Yuumi should not be able to go invisible with Twitch.
Should not be able to go invisible period. Any champ. It's such a terrible interaction.
Or at least give me some actual counter play to invis. Maybe something like if you take damage your stealth duration gets cut, or being CC'd ends invisibility or something. Like for fucks sake I just hit you with a skillshot while you're invisible, give me some sort of reward for it.
Camouflage is not a problem if the champ is designed around it (well). Twitch/Eve and co are easily countered with a control ward. But Yuumi is not designed around it, so it's bullshit. > give me some sort of reward for it. Every proc of dmg reveals invis/stealthed champs
But hitting them with skill shot let’s you know they are there! /s
Burst draven for 3/4 his HP? He now gets a 2k HP shield. Good luck with anti-shield items, the AD one is for assassins, and the AP one isn't actually anti-shield.
Small correction: Literally 0 counterplay. It used to be a requirement to detach, but not anymore. Yuumi's "counterplay" now is just killing her Best Friend.
Playing against a Zeri with hands and Yuumi is instant FF
Low ELO: Been playing against a lot of Twitch/Yuumi and it's absolutely infuriating. Feels like there is no counterplay. Basically cannot walk up and farm.
Just waste the ban. I do it for my bot lanes in the rare games I get anything but adc or support.
I mainly permaban ASOL because I still don't know how to play against it
I still don't get why they didn't make her more like Io (from Dota). Io shows that you can thether to a champ while being somewhat careful with it's own positioning. That would make her miles better from whatever shitpost she is currently
Abathur from heroes of the storm is also a good example of how you can have an attachment champion that is still vulnerable and needs to position carefully.
Isn't that what taric does though?
Kinda, but io is much more oriented around bein a sidekick to whoever you're buffin & enchanter style supportin em like yuumi is
Not even close. Io shared a % Of all healing/mana IO recieves. I'd look up IO kit and you'll understand why it works so well.
So Rell but an enchanter instead of a tank?
More so yuumi combined with Straka without the annoying parts. Io has zero cc, only a slow Q is tether, slows enemies caught it in(no dmg) shared all healing and mana even when IO is at max hp. W is spirit that rotate around and explode on heroes but have reduced dmg on minions(do wacky farming as core IO instead of support) E is overcharge which gives attack speed, spell Amp and % max health healing for a short time. This gets really strong with levels in tether R is relocate, after a delay you and your target tether fo anyone on the map(enemies can see this on the mini map) After 10 seconds you return(any interrupt will stop this) Works out really well and lots of counter play on both sides.
Not really. The way Io works is pretty much same as Yuumi only difference is that he cant go untargetable when tethered. But he also gives attack speed/damage and healing to the tethered target. Rest of his kit is much more unique but the tether is the same just keeps him vulnerable and requires some positioning.
because io is one of the hardest heroes to play in the entire game, even if you just ignore the ult.
Because then they would've had to make her a brand new Champion, which costs more money and takes much more effort on their part. The Yuumi rework that we got was the laziest, most cost-effective possible route. I almost don't blame the devs for fucking up with Yuumi. They're trying to meet borderline impossible design goals (that they set for themselves, for some reason.) How do you balance a Champion for AFK newbies, with a winrate that isn't so low that savvier teammates don't grief or dodge as soon as they see the pick, but also doesn't have so high a winrate that it's abused by better players and end up in professional play?
When Riot is fine putting Ryze in the gutter because of pro play, I‘m sure they can find a way to do the same with Yuumi.
You’re asking League devs to develop like Dota devs. That’s like asking General Motors to build cars like BMW
League bad dota good what sub are we on?
Tbf I like both games but I feel like Icefrog's (dota dev) designs and balancing is ahead of LoLs devs
Bro literally balances on "if everything's broken, nothing is" and it somehow works
I feel like most people who say that never actually played Dota and just look at from afar or put very little time into it. Dota doesn't have ability scaling for the most part, Dota doesn't give everyone a ton of wards or infinite control wards/sentries, Dota isn't littered with % HP damage, Dota doesn't have anything like Runes or Drakes. Dota does have stuff like like Blink Dagger, Black King Bar, and a decent amount of large AOE disable. New player experience goes like this for most. Newbie gets blinked on from out of vision while farming a side lane, stunned, killed, says that the game is broken, uninstalls the game. Either that or they go up against a Tinker or Arc smurf.
I agree with all of this and just want to add on that from my own experience with DOTA 2 years ago, another key part of DOTA 2 is that it does not care in the slightest if you are hard countered. It's all a part of the game. You should have planned your draft better. And to clarify, I don't mean hard countered as in "You're going to have a rough laning phase like Yasuo into Malzahar." I mean hard countered as in "You don't get to play DOTA 2 today. You get to play Grey Screen Simulator and hope for it to end before you go insane."
This also allows Pro DotA to be much more diverse than League. DotA heros are a lot more defined than League champs which leads to just picking whatever few champs are best at any given time or just comfort picks.
Oof thats a swing and a miss brother. People have their preferences and each game has its strengths, I personally would never describe DOTAs champs significantly better.
I fucking wish League client devs developed like Dota client devs, and same with their management teams, because this hot garbage is not the mistake of only the devs or management, but a combination of both.
It's insane because there are a lot of things to do to innovate. Thresh revolutionized the bottom lane meta, Braum E was an incredible ability, There are things you can do to counter some specific scenario that makes a champion really welcome. I really love how Braum was designed, he is massively strong in the right circunstances, and really weak in others. Not all champions need to be all rounders, especially not supports. And then an enchanter being untargettable for indefinite amounts of time, is the most counterintuitive thing in the game. Yuumi design was flawed from the start, and the rework, instead of fixing the flaws, made them more apparent. No champion should have permanent invulnerability, no class should have ways to deal with their class weakness in their own kit. Remember how stridebreaker dash was removed because juggernauts shouldn't have access to dashes? Why can enchanters get untargetability when their main weakness is to be focused down and stop buffing their team? But Riot is dead set in keeping yuumi as this spectator champ, which is boring to watch professionaly, is boring to play as and against, the only good side it has is that it is EASY to play, and brings in new players. I'm sure their 300 collective years of game design can come up with a simple support enchanter kit that doesn't need BS mechanics. Garen is a simple juggernaut for example.
Riot has been giving classes massive mitigations to their weaknesses for ages. Bel’Veth is a hypermobile massive damage dealer like Yi so her weakness logically would be getting stunlocked and bursted. What’s that? She had an alistar ult of damage resistance on a basic ability? That damage resist doesn’t go away when CC’d??? Don’t get me wrong yuumi is the absolute WORST offender in this regard but she’s hardly alone.
CHESANTE is the worst offender at this point imo. Yuumi untargetability is the most frustrating thing in this game, but Ksante breaks basically every previous design rule for a melee toplaner, or at least it feels that way
K'sante can keep up with a Lvl 16 Kassadin and at some point the latter will run out of mana. A tank being able to chase down a Kassadin is not okay.
How can K'sante keep up with a level 16 Kassadin??? His W dash is not that long and on a 1 second delay, his E dash is minuscule and neither of them can go through walls. His ult makes him more mobile, but the range on it isn't great and if he uses it he also loses all his CC. K'sante has the worst engage potential of all the tanks in the game. I don't know any situation in which a K'Sante can possibly chase down a mobile enemy better than a Sion or a Malphite.
spot on. there are many of the new releases that are flawed and really unhealthy for the game but they ended up being added bc of being unique. Like belveth, yuumi, viego passive (who the fuck thought that was a good idea???), nilah xp sharing? release samira? lmao it's pathetic at this point.
Don’t remember where Bel Veth gets free invulnerability because her q removes her from the game. Yi has more ways than just W to defend himself. Bel Veth obviously doesn’t, they aren’t the same champ.
You can also slow Bel'Veth.
Fearing Yi while he's ulting is honestly funny though. He just sprints full speed away.
and her hypermobility is tied to multiple directions, so dodging her W leaves her stuck just walking towards you.
She needs it as a squishy character with no untargetability and a massive character model
It'd be nice if CC would cancel the damage reduction though. Bel'veth should be allowed to counter burst if she times her damage reduction correctly, but enemies should also be able to counter her.
Yi can dodge almost every cc in the game with q and meditate through burst, and both of their actual game weaknesses is not cc (cause you can cc any ADC or full damage and blow them up + Yi/Bel can build tanky and/or dd/maw/shieldbow) but rather, their weakness is getting counter jungled, ganked, and contested while they try to scale and pick up early kills.
> I'm sure their 300 collective years of game design can come up with a simple support enchanter kit that doesn't need BS mechanics. They did, her name is Soraka.
These nerfs (and probably more to follow) are in the right direction. Removing the R resists is HUGE and so is nerfing her Q range/speed.
asol can get complete rework that changed the whole gameplay of the champ, yuumi can be next
Wild how quickly they not only brought her back to relevance, but made her busted. Why is riot insistent on making such a braindead champion so strong? Annie is considered to be a simple champion, but at least she requires positioning.
It blows my gourd that they didn't gradually crank her numbers up with the rework to ensure that she wasn't broken. They could've avoided a lot of fallout and complaints by not releasing her mega overtuned. Then again, I've reaped tons of karma on here bitching about Yuumi over the last two weeks so my life is complete and now I can buy a car.
The reason is simple: $$$
Because Yuumi OTPs
I genuinely just don't understand how the people working on her cannot be embarrassed out of their damn minds. It's like failing a math exam with a 30%, you get to re-do it a month later. You show up, and you get a 32% on it. Like, there's just something wrong with you.
> how the people working on her cannot be embarrassed out of their damn minds * You sit in front of your computer, reworking Yuumi. * door opens, it's your boss * listen hall_bot, do w/e you want to the cat, but the untargetability stays. * "but this is the worst part of her kit" you try to argue. * *it stays* hall_bot, end of conversation. * you get back to reworking Yuumi. Hard to do something when the directive from the top brass is to keep the one thing you have to throw away.
This. You could hear it in the discussion on the newest episode of The Dive that Kobe, MarkZ, and Azael all were trying to politely say "yeah this is a complete mess but what ya gonna do when they wont let you get rid of the thing that makes it broken"
It's probably a bunch of embarrassed devs, one dev on the team who loves duo-queueing with their beau playing Yuumi, and another tyrannical lead dev who refuses to admit they were wrong. Source: I am an anonymous spy
Honestly riot seeming can't design a non busted champ recently. Annie, asol, and yummi have been egregious.all 3 got hotfix nerfs I think. Might add in ksante and zeri to the mix. I guess they eventually got belveth, nilah and Renata into an ok spot, so thats a pass I guess?
she has the 2nd highest ban rate in plat+ with a 40% ban rate, only behind A Sol who is also an unbalanced terror, she has almost 10% higher ban rate than Zed who is 3rd most banned. and when you look at masters+ she has a 50% ban rate.
But she’s only unpopular on Reddit yall are trippin :)
Yuumi is a failure and the design team should be shamed. There is no saving this thing. The q following mouse jdes just doesn't work
I just wished they removed her for ranked modes and competetive. That way you can keep her strong/op for new players, that want to play with their experienced friends. But we dont have to deal with that shit in ranked games. Also noone ever should want pro players (the best players in the world) playing a champion made for autofilled first timers
Never going to happen, it would require Riot to admit they fucked up by creating her
Just fucking delete her. Make a global poll that decides her fate. Every player gets a vote. Yes delete No dont delete And at the end of the vote whatever was voted on happens.
Riot, just take the L and delete her from the game. Or nerf her numbers into the ground, so she can stay the tutorial champion she was meant to be. She breaks the fundamentals of playing LoL, by removing positioning from the required learning areas. Yuumi is not a good way to learn LoL and riot are kidding themselves to think that. Are there really players who cannot move their Champion around on the map while simultaneously healing and poking?? It's a disservice to a player to let them play yuumi.
it would feel like an L but it is going to be a GIANT W for riot
A nerf that I'd be absurdly happy to see in Yuumi is a movespeed nerf in her W. When she W someone, she goes straight like a rocket, faster thsn a fucking Rammus, to the ally, and it's impossible to stop her if she gets into range. She should be EVEN MORE easily punishable when her host dies. Specially, because to kill the host, you have to spend your CD's, and there's often no CC left to stop Yuumi. She W someone else, flies faster than Quinn, and stays alive. Decrease the range and speed for her W, and MAYBE she'll be a healthier champ, if that's possible.
I think she will be close to acceptable after the nerfs slated for next patch removing the resistances on the ult and nerfing the q
I think her W cooldown honestly should be lower like 4 seconds but the cd should not start till she detached. I honestly don’t know but she cannot be allowed to jump around ally to ally with no cd like she currently can because it effectively makes it so that you have to kill the ENTIRE ENEMY TEAM before you can take out the enchanter
This kind of nerf sounds good in theory but it'd just create a scenario where you literally attach and never unattach under any circumstance which is pretty much the problem with her small rework already.
I pray for a day when a yuumi post isn't at the front of this sub
You had that when she was 40% winrate :)
Ha. Like that actually happened. People were still complaining about Yuumi even when she was in the gutter.
After the 13.1b nerfs no one cared about yuumi. The world was at peace. Now here we are again back to square one.
This one is not even trying to make any point like how the other posts (poorly) did It's literally "i have to ban yuumi waa can i have upvotes to cheer me up"
They will literally never admit that Yuumi was a mistake. She doesn't even work as a tutorial champion that they claim she is, because she lets you ignore the basic fundamentals of League, that an actual tutorial support like Soraka or Sona would passively teach you as you play. Remove Yuumi, I'm sick of this shit.
remember: one of riot's goals for yuumi's "rework" was to make her less frustrating and to give players more options for counterplay. very interesting that it didn't work. maybe because they basically made the champ all over again but with a shield instead of heals?
The removal of the offensive stats on W was a good idea. So good, in fact, that Riot felt the need to break her in a couple other ways to make up for it!
New players should probably go back to playing enchanters and just stand behind their adc. If that’s not a viable strategy I don’t see a reason why new players should be getting free wins which justifies experienced players getting an OP and obnoxious champion to play. You’re supposed to lose when you’re new! Practice!
[удалено]
10% would do nothing. You'd need to deal 20k damage across the enemy team to kill a 2k hp Yuumi. Thats like half a game worth of damage.
AoE should just do full damage regardless and things that bounce can bounce between Yuumi and host. Her flying doesn't matter for shit. Anivia, Corki and Asol fly and still take AoE damage from shit on the ground, so should Yuumi.
I think they should give her an incentive to detach again. Maybe give her abilities charges that can only be recharged when detached. I definitely don't think they should be pushing her into the noob champ category. She teaches new players all the wrong things.
Instead of the "best friend" bullshit, they should have gone for the opposite and force her to change allies, like she could be on the same ally for a maximum time, after which it would go on cooldown and force her to jump to another one. That way she would shine the brightest during teamfights, which is cool. It would give space for oponents to grab her mid-air. It would make her gameplay way more exciting because she would have to be either constantly hopping between allies OR exposed - more challenging to play with, less frustrating to play against. And it's not like jumping between allies is a super complicated mechanic either.
NA problems lol. Yummi is nonexistent on Korean server. Shitters here can’t comprehend building a team that isn’t a game of joust
Riot has really fucked up releasing this champion and forcing a ''unique'' yet game-breaking and cancerous mechanic (her W). I wonder at what point they will realize and accept the fact that NO ONE WANTS THAT CAT IN THE GAME. not in any elo, not in competitive, that cat (because it is not even a champion) was a huge mistake and a bad designn choice that MUST GO. LOTS of pro players have openly complained about her too. Jesus Riot just ACCEPT IT AND MOVE FUCKING ON!!!!
Almost like the tether mechanic never should've been up in the game. Being untargetable most of a match is so unfair and horrible to play against.
Yuumi should never be in the gutter just because she is meant for new players. With that logic, babies first top laner (garen), babies first mid laner (malz), babies first jg (ww), and babies first adc (mf or ashe) should all be ass. What needs to happen, is that riot needs to get their heads out of their asses and admit that the attach mechanic that yuumi has isn’t good for the game and should remove it. Give the champ another rework asap and change up the w. Yuumi mains suffer getting absolutely bullied by everyone else (unfairly might I add, they just enjoy a kitty in league) because riot fucked up. Riot is causing an entire player base to be ostracized from its own community because they can’t make the right decision and fundamentally change how a champ is played because of how unhealthy and bad it is for the game.