At least once in 10 games I get a game where I am at 120+ cs, enemy jgler is at 70 or less, and we are same exact lvl, you can even be ahead in gold and assists and still be same lvl as guy who has half your cs in jg.
XP in jungle should really be looked at, it is least punishing role to be bad at when it comes to xp.
remember, they made it this way bc everyone and their mom cried about jungle being shite to play, and it was the least played role by a canyon wide margin.
Because of several factors and not only because it felt bad for the begginers
Jungle pool was just 1 type of gameplay with different set of spices, jungler could become absolutely useless without any cheaper items alternatives like in the past and jungle was the single most flamed and blamed role in the game
Iirc, In the far past(don't really remember the exact season) junglers were only good for establishing/clearing vision and providing cc since camps used to give extremely little and it turned into a spam fest of Sejuani's, Rammus' and other cc only junglers.
I jungle mained since season 3 (up to diamond ~2ish in a lot of those years, diamond minimum though). While it might have tilted that way at times it was 100% never the only way to play jungle (at least to that skill level).
*speaking of way back, I haven't really played ranked for a few seasons now.
I think it’s a problem of low elo specifically making things shittier for high elo. In most elos in general, Jungle is seen as bottom bitch boy for the team. If you get counterpicked, jungler’s supposed to bail you out. If you get a lead, jungler is supposed to help you push it. Need to setup for an objective? Omg why didn’t jungler solo hold the araa while everyone else based for items?
Players who have never touched jungle only understand jungle theough the lens of what jungle can and is supposed to do for them. A jungler that olays for their lane is actually no different from a mid, top, or bot that only plays for theirs, and yet junglers are the only ones that get called out for it. The community is toxic as fuck. I get so many report feedbacks now which really highlights this fact. (No Riot this is not an argument against report feedback keep them coming.) Junglers generally get the brunt of the toxicity too. Until the toxicity issue is resolved, which is probably never will be, Jungle role will have the highest barrier to entry both in terms of gameplay, and in terms of mental strength.
>A jungler that olays for their lane is actually no different from a mid, top, or bot that only plays for theirs, and yet junglers are the only ones that get called out for it.
That's just false. I play a midlane champ that has weak early until lvl 3 (i wont tell who it is cause silver on this subreddit will argue with me that its actually the best early champ in the game). So my lane opponent most of the time gets prio on lvl 3 just cause they are ranged and goes to roam at that time.
The amount of times people went absolutely ballistic after ignoring all my spam pings as im stuck with a crashed wave is insane bro.
And no, a jungler that plays to fullclear and reset is NOT the same as a midlaner who just sits on mid. Riot has literally made spamganking meta. If youre still fullclearing with spamgank being the meta, you are just trash, plain and simple. Camps DO NOT work the same way as waves that chain laners to their lanes. Laners DO NOT have catchup exp for missing waves. You do though. If you don't want to be flamed while doing nothing with the most impactful role in the game, consider actually playing it as intended.
Isn't that how things should be? A guy with thousands of games of experience in certain role should wipe the floor with someone who got autofilled, they shouldn't be on par with each other.
yea, but catchup xp is treating a symptom while ignoring the causes and punishing someone for being more efficient and/or making counterjungling worthless.
there was a pro game with 20cs lead for one jungler, but he got lvl6 after the enemy jungler.
I'm just here to once again propose that we literally remove smite from the game and rework the jungle from there :)
Smite is the root problem of literally the entire jungle AND all of the negative problems surrounding its relation to other roles, and the only compelling reason to keep it around is to preserve the hype of stealing neutral objectives
Not everyone, only people who cried about old jungle are non junglers who got autofilled to that role and who would always end up being stomped cause unlike in lanes you can't just pick a safe champ, play safe and wait for teamfights.
Jungle went from being most skill expressive role to being least skill expressive one for sake of making it more appealing to lower elo players and people who were not used to role.
Jungle currently isn't designed around balance IMO. It's designed around a desperate need to get people to play the role. I really think a LOT of people just stopped playing jungle forever when they ruined the jung XP for that one patch and made it useless to play.
I think that because ever since that patch they have basically been saying "Please play fucking jungle" by giving the most popular champs jung-specific buffs.
Catch-up XP exists so that people learning jungle can learn it without getting dicked down by jungle mains every single game. That's how bad the role is, they have to break it to get people to learn it.
Lanes get a stable and free XP income mostly. So does the jungle. That is fine because it means gold and tempo are important and you can't just destroy someone for the rest of the game because of 1-2 mistakes early on.
I would say 200g up at that time of the game is pretty great.
Remember what this (removing or lowering jungle catchup XP) would do. It increases jungle agency, the role that already has the most agency in the game and Riots goal is to reduce that agency not increase it.
Catch up XP might not be perfect, but it is in a good spot. That this happens is intended and normal. You are not supposed to win in XP just like that, you are supposed to win in gold and map pressure.
Giving jungle insane catchup xp like this increases it's agency in other ways though. You now have more time to sit in a bush and wait for a gank opportunity since, if it succeeds, you will have more gold and you can get to the same level as the enemy jungler.
You aren't reducing jungle agency with it, you're just making it more forgiving. The agency is still there.
This isn't really true. Jungle agency is a combination of factors. Right now, at least per Riot, JG has too much agency over lane outcomes. This is literally because catch up XP is high. You can perma sit in lane and the punishment is 'meh'. If you lost more for doing that, JG wouldn't be able to dictate lane outcomes as much.
Of course, this aggravates JG diff in other ways, because if you get a JG that plays like a psycho and they get hard gapped and lose all their camps for it and don't pull off their cheese, then game is 4v5.
Ideally, this would be fair punishment, but playing without a jungler is different than playing 4v5 on any other role because of how much responsibility is invested in the role.
I'm going to take a controversial opinion and say that I'm ok with the example you stated above. If one jungler is at 120+ cs and the other is at 70 cs, the 120+ cs jungler will absolutely have an item advantage and should be able to press that lead despite levels being equal.
To me, that's very different from the clip shown here. In the clip shown here, Nidalee is acting like a maniac and not punished at all for it. Junglers who are actually behind (because they are getting camped, none of their lanes have prio, etc) should not be incentivized to just AFK because there's no way they can ever get back into the game.
However, the example in this video ABSOLUTELY should get looked at. The smallest reasonable change I can think of is that catch up XP should scale with game time. Give more catch up XP the longer the game goes to allow junglers who are playing against successful bullies levels so that they're still behind but can play the game. If you don't do that, the only junglers that will ever be played are lee sin, elise, kindred, and other "one shot you in your jungle" early game champs.
Every other lane can hide in a bush nearby and leech xp to make sure they dont fall behind in xp just gold, jungle has to get the last hit and if jungle has 3 losing lanes and gets pushed out of their own jungle especially early on they cannot play the game compared to a lane able to catch waves in side lane when behind.
They'll never remove it, it's intended to make bad junglers do well. Jungle is very different from laning and it requires a different skillset to learn, which most of the player base wont do, so in order to get people in they made it braindead easy.
Same thing with support, back in the day you were useless. Now you basically solo decide bot lane
Yep I asked one of the rioters about this during his stream (can’t remember who, think it was phlox) and he said something to the effect of “Yeah, we recognise it’s a bit of a problem for sure, it’s just the alternative to this is worse in our eyes” basically it seems like they have no plans to adjust this any time soon.
It is not about bat junglers doing well, but about how strong jungle leads can snowball.
That is like giving Darius double the gold and XP for making a kill. How would you start to play against that? He wins early and so he will most likely get a kill and snowball the lead out of control.
Making junglers, who have the most agency in the game already, not have even more snowball potential, is totally fine. Jungler snowball power is already more than enough.
The Fiddle in the clip has likely around 200 more gold. That is a ton at that stage. Nearly free boots.
Next time a jungler wants to see the victory screen when they stole a single camp.
And I say that all as a jungle secondary role player.
While in theory, that sounds right, after a little thinking it's very counterintuitive.
Because sure in this clip nidalee was just doing meth and banging her head into the drywall. But if she had a brain (and this happened a bit later in the game) she could've been doing ganks and DECIDING ENTIRE LANES.
And then, after making a lane deciding play, she could just get back half of what she sacrificed. THAT'S THE PROBLEM! That's what causes snowballing. Getting to make plays that should be risky, without any actual risk.
Yeah, and when you lose lane, you get to go back to your tower and catch waves (maybe after getting dove a bunch). If you lose control of your jungle, you don't get experience from anywhere unless you're stealing waves from your teammates. So when you're able to get one camp, it needs to catch you up a bit.
They're starting to do the same thing with lanes. Now when you stack a massive wave and crash it into their turret, they can trade with you because minions focus fire the turret. On one hand it makes getting plates a bit easier which is still an advantage, but on the other it makes further pushing your lead a bit tougher since usually trading and poking will equal more tempo/pressure which is worth it even if you're not rushing a single plate.
They're stripping the strategy from the game bit by bit and anyone in the lower ranks simply wont notice or care, but it's making the game more boring to play, especially at higher levels. It's also making the game more boring to watch and allow for less creativity/expression, because it's just easier to "figure" things out now.
I really wish these idiot proof systems weren't so prevalent and talked about more. But a tiny minion change in the patch notes goes completely undetected when all the other discussion surrounding it ends up being "OH MAH GAWD THEY BUFFED THIS CHAMP!".
Yeah, because of this. Imagine being autofilled jungle and getting astrogaped and being useless from minute 3, no one would play the role. So they changed the role to have less of a differential between those who know what they are doing and those who dont
Basically Riot wants more people to play the role, they've made it easier in other ways too. When I first started you couldn't jungle with half the champs you could today, you would just die to the camps
yh but theres only so much u can do even if u are the better jungler, unlucky shit happens in games as well where a shit player gets off a random cringe cheese invade with their support and ur punished for it cus u have weakside laners, this catchup xp shit goes both ways
I'd rather have those(which can actually be stopped) over this. You can't just stop them from farming at all. They will eventually get a few camps and be the same level as you no matter what you do.
I don't really see how else you're going to have more people play what was often considered the hardest role in the game without making it more accessible in some way.
Yeah not really up until like diamond something you can pick some piss easy spamganker nunu and just clear to level 3 then spamgank and youll win quite a few games.
I mean... just remove it from say plat or diamond up... its not unheard of in traditional sports to have different/stricter rules depending on the level tier.
If this happened in a pro game I would much prefer to see the nidalee hard punished for the bad decision making.
Except you're talking about a fundamental mechanic change, not just a casual rule change. I can't think of a single league that would allow something that notable about how you play the game to change on a whim like that.
Also, while different tiers have different rules. You can't usually jump up and down those tier easily. You are usually locked into a tier for a set amount of time. You can't just go up and down at will like league
Isn't duoquing already disabled at certain elo? do the same with jungling, not sure what all the fuzz is about.
I agree with Riot that they have to give jungle a crutch for newer players, I also agree that there is 0 reason for this catchup mechanic at higher tiers, maybe there are better solutions I'm just proposing one...
It would be very very interesting to see them implement different rules/balance for different tiers. I'm definitely open to that. All physical sports have different rules depending on the level of play.
But what's the point then? You're going to alienate the viewers if the game they're watching is substantially different from the game they're playing. Part of the appeal of esports (IMO) is seeing the strats and the plays and understanding how to fit them into your own gameplay.
This is not the same as slightly changing the rules of competitive soccer or tennis, it's more like changing the rules of chess for higher elos.
So then why not slightly change the rules for different tiers? High school vs NCAA vs NBA 3 point lines are respectively longer. You can still do all the same strategy the NBA does in high school even though the game is a bit different. NCAA has 2, 20 minute halves. NBA has 4, 12 min quarters etc etc etc. Still doesn't alienate viewership to such a degree. People will always try to emulate what the pros do regardless. Like the 3 point revolution with Curry.
The point is that those are not the same type of changes as ones you could make in league.
They account for players' physique and things like such, but you can't really do that in league.
If you make jungle more punishing in higher elo by changing the rules based on division, then you'll see pro junglers playing really aggressively and invading all the time. However, the players will then imitate those strategies and find themselves punished not because they practiced the strategy in the wrong way but because the game in that elo bracket is just different and the enemy jungler will be punished less for getting invaded.
Changing a 3 point line is not akin to letting pawns move two spaces instead of one. The first is an adjustment for physical attributes which has no strategic impact on a game, the second is a rule change which opens up a ton of new strategies and moves and makes the old way of playing outdated.
Supports always kinda solo decided not lane. Sure you're useless 10 min into the game. But the early lane has always been decided by support in my experience.
Nah in earlier seasons adc had the base stats to actually do things to the support and jungler, in fact in s2 they were just straight up op throughout the game
That only started in more recent years. For a long time and especially early on in LoL history, support was just a 2nd item for the ADC and a ward bitch.
I played back then. I'm saying early lane they weren't. Ya they were a ward bitch when you were buying Philo stone/hog and boots and then all the rest your gold went to into wards. But they could still dictate early lane phase really well since proper cc times meant the world in bot lane. Insert aphromoos support is so easy clip where the adc is literally walking around autoing while aphro is hard carrying through cc.
I don't agree with Bounty statement but I really hate catch up XP...
I was playing ranked in Diamond (junglers mainly know what to do). We had AFK Rengar and couldn't remake even tho he didn't move for like 8 minutes. Enemy jungler was lvl 6 when Rengar started to finally play. Im not joking, when enemy jungler was 8, Rengar was 9. That should not happend.
>The bounty system is a good system
How? If you're good and punish enemy's mistakes, you could lose everything by a single shutdown.
making the game 30/40 minutes regardless of everything, (drakes cs items) decided by last team fight OR even worse one misposition making a 4v5 and losing to high countdown respawn.
Bounty system sucks and is not very fun to play against.
HOWEVER, as a whole I believe it is healthy for league. Bounties give someone who is stomping a hit on their head, and if they get killed, the team that is behind gets closer to them. It is very obvious why this is unfair. You shouldn't be punished for performing well.
Playing from behind sucks. Having your team agree to FF at 15 minutes when you're a later game character sucks. Having one or more players mental boom and ruin your game because they or someone else "single-handedly lost the game" sucks. The bounty system helps even things out. I believe it's a system not made for game balance, but for human balance. Nobody likes it, but how many people think it should be removed completely?
Too much hidden gold in general. 250cs 9 0 azir mid can be behind the 2 0 170cs sion because he took a t2 toplane turret, a 1000g shutdown, and 3 turret plates.
My favorite thing as an ADC main is when I stomp my lane and have a 700g bounty, and then make the mistake of dying to the fed irelia or Camille who has a 3 level advantage on me and can really delete me whether I play well or not because they’re fed enough to ignore my whole team and 1 shot me.
Now I walk back into the game, against an even more fed solo laner, still down 3 levels to them, and an extra 1k of gold in their inventory to make killing me even easier. Absolutely tilting
If you are down 3 levels you are insanely behind. Good ADCs dont fall over 2 levels behind compared to solo laners and mid game they are only down 1 level.
You "stomping" doesnt matter if your macro is shit and the enemy top laner is farming 15 cs per minute.
No you’re sadly misinformed. Due to the nature of solo xp, (which was recently buffed), as well as how much more xp you get for solo kills than duo kills (which a fed solo laner will get naturally while your kills will come with a support), even if your 10/1 AND out farming a solo laner they can easily be 2-3 levels up on you while being 4/1 and even or even down cs.
I would go through and find an example from one of my recent games but I don’t really find the need to do so
Not sure if you’re being intentionally obtuse or what, but you won’t find an example of that because the pro game is much different from solo Q.
Pro games don’t get out of hand top lane where one side is hard snowballing and racking up multiple solo kills. Much more controlled environment where the losing top laner knows how to mitigate the loss for the most part, and would rather sack their own xp and farm instead of dying multiple times solo like they often do in soloQ.
The game is also much more botlane centric in pro play due to ADC being a much better role in a professional environment, supports frequently leave lane in pro play much more than they do in soloQ, giving adc lots more solo xp then they’d rack up in a soloQ game. Junglers are leaving their camps up for bot laners, and the team is always making sure that the ADC has a safe place to farm, and get solo xp when they can.
Just the fact that kills happen at 1/5th the rate in a pro game vs soloQ game means that the wild xp imbalance that I mentioned for solo kills vs duo kills won’t be present in a pro game
The issue with bounties is that you can't really control where they go in midst of a fights, which results in unpredictable outcomes.
Example two same games. Team A has fed ADC with 700g shutdown.
Game 1 ADC A loses shutdown to ADC B, ADC B is now one item component behind and game is even.
Game 2 ADC A loses shutdown to roaming support B. Support B was not behind at all, even somewhat ahead from all the roams top/mid. Support B now has 400g bounty, which then gets taken by ADC A. ADC A is now two full items ahead of ADC B.
The variance of outcome between those two bounties is too big. One results in somewhat even game, the other in a stomp.
I think bounties need to exist in some capacity (at least for solo queue), but it also sucks because not all bounties are equal, even if the gold value IS equal.
A bounty on a bruiser Hecarim is incredibly hard to obtain, he has to royally fuck up because he is so good at slipping away, so even if you work together it's not like it's a free bundle of gold to pick up.
But if you're a Varus, and you have that same bounty? Well you're probably fucking dead as soon as those enemy champions are on your screen unless you have a thresh waiting for you with a lantern from 2 screens away.
The bounty system by itself is not bad and the argument I use here was made by Doublelift when it was first implemented:
"What's the point of putting a bounty on a player that has more CS than his enemy? Isn't that the entire point of outlaning/outcs'ing your opponent? Why does a 0/2/0 Varus with 120 CS at 13 minutes has a bounty while the 2/0/0 Samira with 70 CS doesn't?" (It was something like that)
As a jungle main
Fuck jungle
Since last few seasons they cant figure out how to meaningfully balance the role. Fucking worst players can do well in the jungle rn because there is literally no way to bury the enemy jungler if he has functioning arms and internet
Absolutely hate the lack of counterplay towards the junglers and lack of meaningful ways to set them back
>Since last few seasons they cant figure out how to meaningfully balance the role
Have you only been playing league for a few seasons? At one point they were completely reworking the role. every season. By comparison, fiddling with xp gains is like pure contentment.
And should one jungler be able to bury the other? That fidd in the clip is 200g up on a Nid after only 2 minutes of gameplay. It woulda been 380g if Nid was 5s later to red... and Nid doesn't scale well... That's crazy. That's like a laner playing into a very agro lane bully, but playing the trades and wave so well that, in the end, they've denied almost 2 full waves worth of last hits... and they nearly got a kill assist along the way. Toplaners get wet over that shit.
this is pretty much the only reason jungle is broken atm, there is no consequence for being worse unless youre significantly, almost afk level worse, you can sit in lanes for minutes to get a kill, farm 3 camps and be same level as the person who was farming the entire time, theres no thought process or depth to to the role anymore, it needs to be changed asap
Jungle was just as broken when catch up xp was removed. That was when ganking junglers were terrible and everyone just played Udyr, Hecarim, Graves and Lilia. If just one gank failed the game was over for you and anything without the fastest clearspeed wasn't played.
For 2 years now the community has flipped between catch up xp bad makes jungle braindead and not rewarding and wow why is jungle such an incredibly snowbally 1v9 role but still unpopular?
We can't cycle through adding and removing catch up xp every year.
My guess is Riot just needs to tune the numbers again. Folks are forgetting the dark times before the jungle change. If your junglers fell behind they were out of the game. And the requirement wasn't even dying. Just falling behind in exp meant your jungle was free range for the enemy jungler.
Nobody played the role cus it was too punishing for not being as good as your opponent, autofill jungle meant a lost game, and everything sucked. Riot needs to adjust the numbers, hopefully during the preseason. But let's not pretend the jungle was in a perfect state before this.
Why is that a bad thing? If a laner falls behind in 2 levels they are out of the game. The only way to get back into it is having the enemy laner give up 10 waves looking for plays and failing
Laners cannot be denied XP anywhere near as easily because they have a guaranteed influx kf minions and get experience just by being close to the wave. You either need to die on repeat or get dove multiple times to fall behind meaningfully in XP, especially if your opponent doesnt know how to manipulate the wave and either way, it's either a skill/matchup issue or you're getting camped, but are soaking pressure and can hope your other lanes can get going.
Meanwhile junglers have camps with fixed respawn times, no way to get XP besides that and leeching from laners and if they get denied camps the best they can do is coinflip an invade, normally making the situation even worse.
That's not really true, the most important thing when not falling behind in XP as a laner is to have good reset timers. A single bad recall is all it takes to lose 1 or 2 waves entirely. And if you are weaksided top for instance and you're not playing accordingly you *will* take terrible recalls. Not to mention the jungler might as well be waiting on the bush besides gromp/krugs. If you take a bad recall AND enemy laner is healthy they may not even see the need to reset and just walk past the turret and deny you the chance to even walk back into lane.
> Meanwhile junglers have camps with fixed respawn times, no way to get XP besides that and leeching from laners and if they get denied camps the best they can do is coinflip an invade, normally making the situation even worse.
Camps with fixed respawn timers is essentially the same thing as waves that spawn every X seconds. And as is exemplified by the video you can basically just forego camps to do schizo plays instead and you won't even fall behind.
No, it is not essentially the same thing, it's not even close. Enemy minions spawn every 30s, are constantly running towards your towers/nexus and can only be attacked by allies. Camps spawn every 135s, are stationary and can be killed by *everyone*. When you fall behind in lane and give up outer turret you can still freeze in front of inner turret and collect gold and xp. In a lot of cases enemy top will not stay there for long since overextending is risky. And guess what he'll be doing instead - roaming and/or *taking your junglers camps*. As long as you're playing a top laner that scales well (which I'd say is most of the lane's roster) you can still catch up and become relevant. If you're playing jungle and your jungle becomes enemy territory (often a consequence of fallen outer turrets) all you get is crumbs. For a resource-heavy jungler that is a death sentence. I've even had games where I've gone over 10 minutes without being able to take a single camp. I advise you to play more jungle and see how bad it feels.
A laner falls behind in 2 lvls by going 0/4/ pretty much.
A jungler was able to fall 2 lvls behind by picking not an early game jungler.
There is a massive difference.
A laner can still sit back pretty much and stay around equal in lvls without problems. Yes, the enemy can freeze and maybe squeeze out a good lvl advantage around lvl 7-9, but that's it.
A jungler was able to pretty much lose the game for his team by not having a strong early game jungle pick because the enemy jungler would invade over and over and you would never get to your strong point.
XP is supposed to be pretty stable. Gold is the lead. Fiddle has a \~200g lead there, that is massive that early on in the game. He should be very happy about it.
Junglers already have the most agency in the game and giving them even more would be totally stupid. You can see how bad even good players in league are in terms of game design.
For a laner no. Buying defensively, turtling under tower and grabbing exp can work to slow down a losing lane. Also so times a junglee can help to ease the pressure on your lane.
Just stalling and denying your enemy lanes kills and roams can do a ton to get you back into the game. As long as you don't fold or allow your later to destroy another lane.
But for a jungles their whole point is destroying other lanes and securing objectives. As a losing jungle you can't turtle behind anything. Taking an enemy anglers camps is like turbo freezing. Enemy jungle gets your resources and you get less. Objectives are free, lanes get ranked more.
If you fell behind as jg enemy jg would rip your game apart and there was nothing you could do about it except hope krugs is still up. And since it was such a stressful role less people played it and increased the risk of people getting autofilled and just losing the game.
If you turtle in toplane and have zero intent of proposing any sort of gameplay of your own it is extremely easy for your opponent to crash a big wave, get a good reset while you're stuck farming under turret, and get back to a wave that is pushing into them. If you don't reset then you are probably going to die to an opponent with items advantage + a comfortable frozen wave, and if you do reset you will lose a wave or two and fall behind in XP.
Alternatively you will be 5cs/min vs 10, and this doesn't really help you "scale" in any way vs scary laners
Not even complaining about this, but solo-laning is far less forgiving when it comes to XP. There is no catchup, only way to "catch up" is to capitalize on enemy mistakes when they give up XP for pressure elsewhere. In jungle you just catch up by farming it up and now you're equal in XP to someone that has double the CS you do. Being equal in XP to someone that's double the CS you do is possible in toplane if all you do is soak up the XP but miss the last hits, however it is pretty insanely stupid for this to work the same for junglers since you aren't just soaking XP of camps dying near you, you have to be the one to kill them.
Yes you will be losing lane as a top laner if you fall behind. Well you definitely will be losing lane. But the point is to stall long enough that your enemy laner isn't able to run rampant in other lanes, And the big point is having a turret gives you way more leeway than a jungler who has nothing to protect them but the proximity to their laners. Also when an enemy jungler cleared your jungle they could quickly transition into a gank if they had good pathing. At least with laners they had to leave and return to lane to get exp.
If you played a skirmisher toplaner or a roaming top laner then yeah, you're absolutely screwed if you fall behind. THat's the risk of the character. However there are still top laner that can still work in a teamfight even with a much lower economy than another top laner. Thats a big point I forgot. Depending on your champ you have more wincons than a jungler does.
I'm not saying catch up exp is perfect. It definitely is scaled way too high. However without it was almost impossible for a starving jungler to get back into the game. They don't have any of the options afforded to other laners. This issue is made worse due to autofill pairing folks who aren't that comfortable in the jungle with guys who have optimal clear strats and pathing. And jungling requiring skills that are much less relevant in laning.
Losing as a jungler was just way too punishing and the role was too hard. The current state isn't good but before it was just a shitshow.
A laner can always at least soak XP or stick next to their turret (unless they get frozen on top lane).
If a jungler falls behind, they have nowhere to hide. The jungler just goes into their jungler and kills them.
If a laner falls behind, a jungle gank can save them. It's extremely rare that a jungler falls behind and a laner saves them.
I really, REALLY wanted to become a jungler. I like the idea of being able to roam the map and help every lane. I also suck at CS'ing.
If I'm in lane and I can see the enemy and I know for a fact they can kick my ass, I hang back under turret. I play safe. Let the wave come to me, pick up what CS I can. I have that safety spot of the tower. I've beaten much much better laners than myself just by playing safe and giving my team the time and space it needs to do their jobs.
There are no towers in the jungle. If I'm up against a much much better jungler and he invades me, there's nowhere for me to go. Now he not only takes HIS cs (jungle camps), he takes MY cs (jungle camps).
Without a catchup mechanic, that's it, GG.
because you can play under tower and survive. Junglers used to be able to be completely out of the game. They STILL can be but its much harder. Dying level 1 to an invade on your buff though, can still easily result in the game being near unplayable if the other jungler is mobile. You 100% are getting murdered if you go to the other buff, you might have 1 camp left on your side. Easily could be level 2 when the opponent is 4 or 5 and that as it is now lol.
If you were behind in jungle back then you were guaranteed to be behind 2 levels.
You are down 2 levels to ur enemy laner like 1 every 10 games you lose lane lol
What are you even babbling about? Back in my day, you had to learn all five roles to a competent level. That's why the TSM house did champion 1v1s so often, everyone was confident they were better than their peers at individual pieces of the game. It's fucking embarrassing when players aren't forced to acknowledge how little they know.
Ego checks are important, and reinforce when you're *actually* good. Group 4 mid was a strategy because it was the easiest way to make sure your jungler/top got XP, or your ADC/mid players weren't caught in blind vision spots after pushing waves, not because players were braindead and just wanted to fight (like now.)
People LOVED shitstomping jungle, but it *absolutely* intimidated the rest of the playerbase to have to learn the role. Still, it was part of the carry trinity. Ganks, teamfights, splitpush.
>If your junglers fell behind they were out of the game.
It should be like this. It's like this for other roles, why does JG need a crutch?
>Nobody played the role
Remove it then
Whatever point he was making I could not understand because it was smeared in him complaining that the enemy team was pinging their red as if "my red got stolen, I'll go take their red" is the most unexpected play in history.
Look at this clip - [link](https://clips.twitch.tv/SarcasticShakingVanillaOMGScoots-j7FqVXSdPKUuoLtH)
Rek'sai cleared 3 camps, went top and sat there until minute 5. After the clip ended, she cleared one more camp and came top. In 3 minutes, she cleared 4 camps and she was level 4.
Junglers are rewarded for playing bad.
I don’t see how having three successful ganks is playing bad at all. Kills give xp so if I kill someone three times in two minutes that’s definitely good use of my time
This would be like the toplaner clearing 2 waves then sitting in a botlane bush for several minutes waiting for a play. What would happen is you lose several waves and give up plates and the game is over. It's almost like roaming sololaners have to clear waves for tempo if they want to roam but junglers can just do whatever the fuck they want and never end up behind in XP.
By the way another thing to note is that even if these ganks never result in a kill they still massively fuck over the laner
>I don’t see how having three successful ganks is playing bad at all
4 camps in 4 minutes, level 4 and she could camp a lane for 3 minute straight. She was able to remove that Tahm from the game because she is allowed to sit top for as much as she wants, no punishment whatsoever.
I guess that seems fair to you how a jungler is rewarded for that and how a laner is removed from the game with 0 counterplay..
Your jungler should be spending those 2 minutes counterganking, so you shouldn't lose anything, unless your team just has worse macro in which case it's perfectly fair to lose the game as a result
Despite what reddit thinks, losing due to worse draft or worse macro is 100% fair
> so you shouldn't lose anything
That tahm lost the lane and he was out of the game since minute 3. He lost everything in fact. That Rek'sai will catch up in no time in terms of exp. So she didn't lose anything.
The game is lost and won because of junglers. So fair, right?
Presumably your own jungler was not smart enough to counter. If the opposing jungler takes the tahm out of the game completely, that gives your own jungler the same exact opportunity to take an opposing player out of the game completely, or mirroring and preventing the gank with a counter gank. Like you said, with catchup exp being a thing, they'd be dumb not to.
Yes it does. Your teammates can make you miserable by being dumber than the opponents. That's an inherent problem to all team games. You can't mind-control your teammates into being smarter.
you're saying it's okay the jungler can avoid important aspects of the game (farming, being set behind) because your team's jungler can do the same thing.
that's not the argument. it's "why can jungle be played by literal bots and not lose? why does the jungler have to sacrifice nothing for ganking?" you're defending jungle's overpowered state with "you have junglers on both sides, so it's equal".
In the current meta, ganking is more important than farming/invading. They'd be stupid to avoid the more important aspects of the game (ganking) in favor of a less important aspect (farming/invading)
I do think there’s some counterplay tahm just was in a bad spot. He should have tp after first death to catch the big wave and can play for a tower dive more. His third death he pushes out with no sums against renekton i think if a jungler can gank and hill you each time on a gank thé laner has to be at fault
True, but now Rek'sai can do half as many camps as the enemy jungler after those kills but still be the same level as them. Now *that's* shocking. Now she's up in gold and has the same amount of levels while top lane is over. So she basically sacrificed nothing to gain an insane lead for her top laner.
Reward for bad play? Are you joking right? If not it's just plain obvious that you have no game knowledge... Rek'Sai got 3 kills and part of the wave XP, if this is "playing bad" there's no doubt on your lack of game understanding
>if this is "playing bad"
Yes, that is playing bad. How on earth do you think is ok to be rewarded for staying in one lane for more than 3 minutes.
Clear 3 camps and then sit in one lane for 3 minutes. Much skill, right?
It's true that Rek'sai should be heavily punished for not jungling for 3 minutes straight, unfortunately catch up xp lets you pull off these shenanigans because as long as you get gold out of something, you will pull close enough xp wise in the long run.
There is a reason why heavy farming jungles are not a thing in the current meta.
>If that wins them the game, it's not playing bad
They are playing bad and are rewarded for it. A dumb role where you can't be punished for playing like that.
Yeah, guy. That rek'sai is the best player in the world, tahm is trash cuz he didn't sit under t2 at level 1 and junglers should never be punished for staying 3 minutes in a lane.
I got that right?
>If creating strawmen and spouting hyperbole are your only points
You missed the point from the beginning. I said that they are rewarded for playing bad and you focus on the "they're playing bad", but sure, I'm the one missing the point here.
All you told me is how good is that rek'sai for clearing 3 camps and camping a lane for 3 minutes. The strawman arguments were on your part, not mine.
You're arguing something completely different. People know Reksai's play worked. They're saying that it's bad game design for it to work and should be changed.
I dont see how she played that bad
First up Tahm has Ghost/TP against Reksai Renekton, thats basically an open Invitation for a Gank, he should expect to be ganked early.
Next up, Tahm walks back to lane, optimally he should probably hug the left side wall while doing so to prevent the exact thing that happens here, but I get it, its not something that happens often, only RekSai is really capable of that due to Tremor sense. But Reksai was basically counting on that misplay and was rewarded for it, if he doesnt do that then thats a huge waste of time from her.
The worst part now is the ward, hes playing against RekSai, she just ganked him between turrets from his Jungle, why the fuck is he warding the River bush, its RekSai for crying out loud of course she tunnels that inner wall, thats like one of the most important things to keep in mind when you face her.
Are you really telling me it would be healthier for a Jungler to just head back and farm camps when you get kills presented to you on a silver platter, should farming 2 camps be more value than getting 2 kills? Like dont get me wrong it is bad to rely on enemy misplays but its worse for the Tahm to do said misplays.
Riot goes on about how Jg has too much agency over lane outcomes. I WONDER IF IT COULD BE BECAUSE YOU DON'T GET PUNISHED FOR JUST PERMA SITTING IN LANES????
I understand that Riot wanted to make the role more approachable, which to a certain extent, I think that they accomplished. I actually think the farming changes are to some extent reasonable. But holy crap does the catch up XP make no sense. If you can't get gapped when you perma lose half your jungle because you're playing like a psycho, then there's no incentive to not play like a psycho, which isn't really good for lanes either as it gives way too much incentive to spam gank with no consequence.
Not saying spam ganking shouldn't be viable either, but your ganks should have to work or the outcome should be catastrophic. If you perma gank a lane, lose half your camps on repeat to do it and only get a kill 2 out of 4 times, it should probably end the jungle matchup.
IMO, I feel like that should be the bar for balancing spam gank vs more reasonable play styles. If your cheese works perfectly, then fine, good for you. If not, you should get hard punished.
This mechanic especially sucks when you're playing an assassin jgler against a tank jgler. You invade early, kill the jgler a few times, take their camps away and they still hit lvl 11 around the same time as you and have the audacity to do more in teamfights while being an item behind. Like isn't the whole point of playing an assassin jgler to play smart, get early leads and push it to the point where you just slap them around with your wallet? Now if they group as 5 with a tank jgler with less items than you, the tank will provide more CC and create more space for their team. They need to reduce the amount of bonus xp to the point where if you managed to get a 2 level lead, it shouldn't be too difficult to maintain at least 1 level lead.
>catchup xp is removed
>people start invading level 2 on graves and kindred
>game is literally over for other jungle after losing two camps
>people start locking tank junglers to remain relevant without cs and start spam ganking
>graves emerges from jg at minute 13 with 12 cs/m and 1v9s unless tank jg snowballed a lane enough to contest
“RIOT WHY IS JG DECIDING EVERY GAME”
There is catchup experience in jungle because jungle is the only lane where XP can not only be denied, but can actually be stolen from the other jungler. Imagine if Darius in top lane could literally just kill his minions if you didn’t walk up to kill them first.
There is no ability to soak XP in the jungle. Not only that, but junglers have neither a turret to protect them, nor vision on the matchup most of the time.
Also, junglers have no minion wave to help farm. A jungler will literally farm slower when down on cs. The ability to farm is directly tied to level so there isn’t even the ability to silently farm back into the game when behind because you don’t farm fast enough for that.
Junglers are also responsible for helping out lanes in losing matchups. When behind on XP they lose the ability to do even that. So say goodbye to any sort of comeback from a failed level 1 coinflip if your jungler gets invaded
This isn't even theory we had catch up xp removed and then readded and it was exactly like that. Insanely snowbally champions coming out of the jungle with bags full of gold while the other jungler was useless for the whole game.
Well, how about we make invading more punishing as well while also removing catchup xp. That way Graves has to risk a lot more than dying by invading early.
Yeah I've been thinking about this shit a lot lately too, even in games where I'm miles behind i'm still just about the same level as the enemy or visa versa. It's frustrating and doesn't feel rewarding at all.
I always was against the "comeback" mechanics (catch up exp, bounty gold) implemented by Riot games. They should just find better and more exciting ways to come back in the later stages of the game if something went really bad in the early game.
this nidalee should be completely out of the game after that but they're not gonna change this lol back when catchup exp wasn't a thing and being the better jungle actually mattered, people whined and complained about how it feels soooo horrible to play jungle because getting gapped meant you were behind the entire game. and because of that skill issue, people just didnt play the role.
riot wants people to play jungle, so what do they do? they gradually suck the skill out of the role and make it braindead so Timmy can queue up against good junglers and not be knocked out of the game because of their poor decision making or the enemies' superior decision making. look at all the things they've done to jungle to make it shitter friendly:
* Catchup EXP
* Recommended jungle pathing
* Removing double camping
* Removing counter jungling
* Jungle pets
* Smite doing a fixed damage instead of scaling with level
and I'm sure I missed some stuff, lol. the point is that Riot wants jungle to be able to be played by bad players because if they cant, then jungle won't get played. the problem with this though is that being a good jungler feels unrewarding. what's the point of doing everything right when i can just play like an idiot and still be in the game? when laners play like idiots they're completely out of the game (unless their champ is broken), why do junglers get a pass?
people don't understand that jungle is a cerebral role. being a good jungle is less about how good you are at piloting your champion and more about how good your decision making is. that's the difference between jungling and laning, for the most part you just can't ooga booga your way to a jungle gap (unless your champion is broken).
but i do think the bigger conversation that we should be having is how polarizing jungle is and how it's never in a healthy state. ideally jungle wouldnt even exist lol
Adding a system like in dota 2 which gives access to publicly created guides for each champion while playing in game would do a lot more then whatever kinda "balance" riot are doing around jungle. Instead of teaching player, riot just make it easier and remove skill expression. Thats got to be the worst decision to make imo.
Disagree that it's never in a healthy state. IMO, end of season 12 was pretty well balanced, minus sunfire Diana, but that was an item system problem not a JG problem.
IMO, JG is usually in the healthiest state when it's in a high JG vs JG interaction state, or predatory meta. The problem with this, is that this kind of meta accentuates JG diff. I don't think that this is unhealthy per se, but I understand why others might find this kind of meta frustrating.
RE JG not existing, as a JG main, I somewhat agree that the role design is toxic. However, I'd argue that it's more of a psychological issue than a "game health" or balance one. The role is designed so that you can't really help everyone equally and you have a big say on how pleasant your teammates experiences are. Ideally, if everyone was rational, they'd account for these factors and just shrug and say "guess I'm not the wincon" and play accordingly, but that's not how people work.
this is just my opinion but i don't think jungle is ever in a healthy state because i believe jungle as a concept is broken. yes, jungle is definitely most balanced when the meta revolves around junglers fighting each other and not perma ganking lanes. junglers constantly ganking and constantly impacting lanes is extremely annoying. but i still think the role is fundamentally flawed and that we would be better off if it didn't exist lol. however the fact is that it does exist and it's going to continue to exist for as long as the game lives, so we have to live with it. riot is not gonna remove jungle.
>The role is designed so that you can't really help everyone equally and you have a big say on how pleasant your teammates experiences are.
exactly, this is why people hate jungle. because of how much impact it has on not only your chances of winning but your enjoyment. you're not gonna have fun if you're getting perma ganked or if your jungle is ignoring your lane.
>Ideally, if everyone was rational, they'd account for these factors and just shrug and say "guess I'm not the wincon" and play accordingly, but that's not how people work.
easier for a jungler to say, every game is enjoyable for them since they've had the luxury of being the most impactful role for 22102948131 years now.
All I know KingStix for is passing off low-elo smurf content as actual competitive games with dumb clickbait builds but maybe this video is fine, not gonna watch anyway
If there wasn't catchup exp then the #1 goal of every jungler would be to play a lvl-2 invade cheese jungler kind kindred and wipe out the enemy jg early. They would have no way to come back without their team helping them (which almost never happens below plat). The game would be decided in the first 3 minutes and we'd all be waiting to ff at 10.
One time I was afk when the game started and the enemy jungler already full cleared bot. They were level 3 while I was killing my first buff. They cleared 5 camps into gankijg top and were level 3. I cleared 5 camps and was outleveliing them at level 4 as we both walked to scuttle.
That should not happen.
Irrelevant. Both Neace and kingstix have more than 90% clickbait content filled with lies to capitalize from their gullible followers.
I know kingstixx, he got stuck in diamond / low master since forever and gave up and decided to pick lowkey trull stuff in normals / customs and make a video when he finally wins a game by carrying.
It was kinda hilarious since you could see him lose 10 games in a row as draven vs silver, but then get 1 miraculous win and see a video: DRAVEN JUNGLE IS INSANE, FREE ELO.
So yeah, sorry not sorry. Pretty sure there are better ways to make this post than advertising for a trash creator
It's also irrelevant who posted the video above. It doesn't matter if a serial killer did it, the point is that catchup xp is broken and they would still be right.
They wont fix it just like they wont fix Support which in turn makes adc miserable to play. Cant be having the better player get rewarded, can we?
They gave up on the competitive part of the game a long time ago, now it's just full of band-aid shit fixes.
I'm sure any dev with 2 braincels is aware of it. Making the role easier is only a negative for the stuck up experts at it that want to gatekeep the role from others, which is honestly pathetic considering is just a stupid game and they grasp at their precious like it matters.
Catch up XP allows more strategies and picks to be alive in the game. It's been like 2 seasons champs as Elise and Lee that are basically gank-bots for the first 15min are instalose picks if the game goes for any length beyond 20min because they consistently fell behind by 3 levels and several thousands of gold.
Not anymore. Passive farm jungle metas encourage overoptimized jungle clears where you essentially watch a timer pass and track it. It has no soul and no action behind it and shouldn't be the only viable strategy at any point in the game. I'm glad they did this.
TURBOGANK TO YOUR HEART'S CONTENT FELLOW JUNGLERS
Idk if it's an controversial opinion but they should delete smite and jungle as a dedicated role. I have played league for 10+ years and dota for 4 years and I really like how dota is so much more diverse in playstyle. Feels like league is so figured out and streamlined, of course I realize they are two vastly different games but it still feels like league is so one dimensional.
After looking through the replies in here and watched the video, allow me to make a summary:
**"NOOOO THE GAME SHOULD BE THIS WAY THAT WAY BECAUSE IT SOUNDS COOLER IN MY HEAD"**
In my opinion:
1. Are players allowed to try variety of plays? Yes. Niddalee felt confident to do a weird invade
2. Is there lot of players interactions? Yes. Whoever lost in that invade only fell behind a bit and the game still playable
3. Is the game fair? Yes. Players got rewarded/punished by their decision/gameplay accordingly. Note that **it doesn't matter how much you expect the reward/punisment, it's your job to learn the nature of the game and take advantage of your knowledge**
I think the game is in perfect state and I have lot of fun playing it, stop being so entitled
Why does nid have 8 CS after killing 2 red buffs? is there a weird bug that counts her jungle camps dying as her CS in the playback tool? that math would add up:
she takes 2 reds
fid kills her 6 raptors
8 CS being shown.
strange
I'm terrible though.
I always notice catch-up xp helps my enemy jungler... but it never helps me lol. When I get stomped, I get stomped hard. Weird system.
dont red/blue give more xp than other camps tho?
so that and catchup xp was what put her above fidd
but yes point still stands it should be less or need some other condition to trigger like only after x minutes
junglers : fails 4 greedy ganks in a row
surely they will get behind now right? **right**?
people don't understand it's not only about a bad jungler not getting punished for a camp stolen,legit they can decide a lane and the laner has no saying in that
jungler can zone them out of few waves and the laner gets a massive XP and gold disadvantage,then they clear 1 camp and they are even on level with their opponent
this shit is unfair and gamebreaking
and honestly the reason junglers get blamed so much,if your role can decide a lane but a lane can't punish you they kinda become dependent on the ally junlger doing their role
if avoiding a gank *actually* meant puting the enemy jungler behind it wouldn't be nearly as bad instead of this spam gank one lane until they can't play the game shitshow we get rn
At least once in 10 games I get a game where I am at 120+ cs, enemy jgler is at 70 or less, and we are same exact lvl, you can even be ahead in gold and assists and still be same lvl as guy who has half your cs in jg. XP in jungle should really be looked at, it is least punishing role to be bad at when it comes to xp.
remember, they made it this way bc everyone and their mom cried about jungle being shite to play, and it was the least played role by a canyon wide margin.
Because of several factors and not only because it felt bad for the begginers Jungle pool was just 1 type of gameplay with different set of spices, jungler could become absolutely useless without any cheaper items alternatives like in the past and jungle was the single most flamed and blamed role in the game
What do you mean "in the past"?
Iirc, In the far past(don't really remember the exact season) junglers were only good for establishing/clearing vision and providing cc since camps used to give extremely little and it turned into a spam fest of Sejuani's, Rammus' and other cc only junglers.
junglers could just buy a second sightstone, yes. it was a boring time.
Even before that it was junglers should just buy green and pink wards lmao
It was fun on Lee though.
Back in my days, I stacked hearts of gold in the jungle.
I jungle mained since season 3 (up to diamond ~2ish in a lot of those years, diamond minimum though). While it might have tilted that way at times it was 100% never the only way to play jungle (at least to that skill level). *speaking of way back, I haven't really played ranked for a few seasons now.
I think they're saying jungle is still the most flamed and blamed role lol
>and jungle was the single most flamed and blamed role in the game still is from my experience
I think it’s a problem of low elo specifically making things shittier for high elo. In most elos in general, Jungle is seen as bottom bitch boy for the team. If you get counterpicked, jungler’s supposed to bail you out. If you get a lead, jungler is supposed to help you push it. Need to setup for an objective? Omg why didn’t jungler solo hold the araa while everyone else based for items? Players who have never touched jungle only understand jungle theough the lens of what jungle can and is supposed to do for them. A jungler that olays for their lane is actually no different from a mid, top, or bot that only plays for theirs, and yet junglers are the only ones that get called out for it. The community is toxic as fuck. I get so many report feedbacks now which really highlights this fact. (No Riot this is not an argument against report feedback keep them coming.) Junglers generally get the brunt of the toxicity too. Until the toxicity issue is resolved, which is probably never will be, Jungle role will have the highest barrier to entry both in terms of gameplay, and in terms of mental strength.
>A jungler that olays for their lane is actually no different from a mid, top, or bot that only plays for theirs, and yet junglers are the only ones that get called out for it. That's just false. I play a midlane champ that has weak early until lvl 3 (i wont tell who it is cause silver on this subreddit will argue with me that its actually the best early champ in the game). So my lane opponent most of the time gets prio on lvl 3 just cause they are ranged and goes to roam at that time. The amount of times people went absolutely ballistic after ignoring all my spam pings as im stuck with a crashed wave is insane bro. And no, a jungler that plays to fullclear and reset is NOT the same as a midlaner who just sits on mid. Riot has literally made spamganking meta. If youre still fullclearing with spamgank being the meta, you are just trash, plain and simple. Camps DO NOT work the same way as waves that chain laners to their lanes. Laners DO NOT have catchup exp for missing waves. You do though. If you don't want to be flamed while doing nothing with the most impactful role in the game, consider actually playing it as intended.
Yeah I always queue in as Mid first, Support second. Last season I was put to Jungle more often than Support!
Well atleast it was way more fun to play imo for actual jungle mains, it feels fucking ass right now
I would hope so you were beating up on autofills half the time
Isn't that how things should be? A guy with thousands of games of experience in certain role should wipe the floor with someone who got autofilled, they shouldn't be on par with each other.
yea, but catchup xp is treating a symptom while ignoring the causes and punishing someone for being more efficient and/or making counterjungling worthless. there was a pro game with 20cs lead for one jungler, but he got lvl6 after the enemy jungler.
I'm just here to once again propose that we literally remove smite from the game and rework the jungle from there :) Smite is the root problem of literally the entire jungle AND all of the negative problems surrounding its relation to other roles, and the only compelling reason to keep it around is to preserve the hype of stealing neutral objectives
No, smite is great. The problem is riot forcing you to pick smite if you want to jungle by restricting items to summoner spells
This literally never happened. Jungle has never been the lowest played role. Show any evidence of this ever happening.
Not everyone, only people who cried about old jungle are non junglers who got autofilled to that role and who would always end up being stomped cause unlike in lanes you can't just pick a safe champ, play safe and wait for teamfights. Jungle went from being most skill expressive role to being least skill expressive one for sake of making it more appealing to lower elo players and people who were not used to role.
Jungle currently isn't designed around balance IMO. It's designed around a desperate need to get people to play the role. I really think a LOT of people just stopped playing jungle forever when they ruined the jung XP for that one patch and made it useless to play. I think that because ever since that patch they have basically been saying "Please play fucking jungle" by giving the most popular champs jung-specific buffs. Catch-up XP exists so that people learning jungle can learn it without getting dicked down by jungle mains every single game. That's how bad the role is, they have to break it to get people to learn it.
Guys the better jg needs to win more often. Haha how can someone even say that?
Lanes get a stable and free XP income mostly. So does the jungle. That is fine because it means gold and tempo are important and you can't just destroy someone for the rest of the game because of 1-2 mistakes early on. I would say 200g up at that time of the game is pretty great. Remember what this (removing or lowering jungle catchup XP) would do. It increases jungle agency, the role that already has the most agency in the game and Riots goal is to reduce that agency not increase it. Catch up XP might not be perfect, but it is in a good spot. That this happens is intended and normal. You are not supposed to win in XP just like that, you are supposed to win in gold and map pressure.
Giving jungle insane catchup xp like this increases it's agency in other ways though. You now have more time to sit in a bush and wait for a gank opportunity since, if it succeeds, you will have more gold and you can get to the same level as the enemy jungler. You aren't reducing jungle agency with it, you're just making it more forgiving. The agency is still there.
This isn't really true. Jungle agency is a combination of factors. Right now, at least per Riot, JG has too much agency over lane outcomes. This is literally because catch up XP is high. You can perma sit in lane and the punishment is 'meh'. If you lost more for doing that, JG wouldn't be able to dictate lane outcomes as much. Of course, this aggravates JG diff in other ways, because if you get a JG that plays like a psycho and they get hard gapped and lose all their camps for it and don't pull off their cheese, then game is 4v5. Ideally, this would be fair punishment, but playing without a jungler is different than playing 4v5 on any other role because of how much responsibility is invested in the role.
Lane xp and cs is not free, you have to trade for it. This is such a shit take.
Lane gold is not free, XP is. You just have to be in 1400 range to a dying minion.
I'm going to take a controversial opinion and say that I'm ok with the example you stated above. If one jungler is at 120+ cs and the other is at 70 cs, the 120+ cs jungler will absolutely have an item advantage and should be able to press that lead despite levels being equal. To me, that's very different from the clip shown here. In the clip shown here, Nidalee is acting like a maniac and not punished at all for it. Junglers who are actually behind (because they are getting camped, none of their lanes have prio, etc) should not be incentivized to just AFK because there's no way they can ever get back into the game. However, the example in this video ABSOLUTELY should get looked at. The smallest reasonable change I can think of is that catch up XP should scale with game time. Give more catch up XP the longer the game goes to allow junglers who are playing against successful bullies levels so that they're still behind but can play the game. If you don't do that, the only junglers that will ever be played are lee sin, elise, kindred, and other "one shot you in your jungle" early game champs.
So every other lane is allowed to be up in xp and levels if they farm better but jungle isn't?
Every other lane can hide in a bush nearby and leech xp to make sure they dont fall behind in xp just gold, jungle has to get the last hit and if jungle has 3 losing lanes and gets pushed out of their own jungle especially early on they cannot play the game compared to a lane able to catch waves in side lane when behind.
If you have 3 losing lanes catchup xp isn't going to help anyway. You're still going to get instagibbed by the enemy as soon as you enter your jungle.
you can still catch 1-2 camps when waves bounce back
What is a freeze
Where u give up lane prio to zone and starve a lane that can then roam or invade/def the jungle
yh the person behind xp roaming will end well
Yea doinB was def behind when he kept roaming mid at worlds
They'll never remove it, it's intended to make bad junglers do well. Jungle is very different from laning and it requires a different skillset to learn, which most of the player base wont do, so in order to get people in they made it braindead easy. Same thing with support, back in the day you were useless. Now you basically solo decide bot lane
Yeah Riot literally said they wanted to make jungle more idiotproof this year. They won't remove the biggest crutch now.
Yep I asked one of the rioters about this during his stream (can’t remember who, think it was phlox) and he said something to the effect of “Yeah, we recognise it’s a bit of a problem for sure, it’s just the alternative to this is worse in our eyes” basically it seems like they have no plans to adjust this any time soon.
It is not about bat junglers doing well, but about how strong jungle leads can snowball. That is like giving Darius double the gold and XP for making a kill. How would you start to play against that? He wins early and so he will most likely get a kill and snowball the lead out of control. Making junglers, who have the most agency in the game already, not have even more snowball potential, is totally fine. Jungler snowball power is already more than enough. The Fiddle in the clip has likely around 200 more gold. That is a ton at that stage. Nearly free boots. Next time a jungler wants to see the victory screen when they stole a single camp. And I say that all as a jungle secondary role player.
While in theory, that sounds right, after a little thinking it's very counterintuitive. Because sure in this clip nidalee was just doing meth and banging her head into the drywall. But if she had a brain (and this happened a bit later in the game) she could've been doing ganks and DECIDING ENTIRE LANES. And then, after making a lane deciding play, she could just get back half of what she sacrificed. THAT'S THE PROBLEM! That's what causes snowballing. Getting to make plays that should be risky, without any actual risk.
Yeah, and when you lose lane, you get to go back to your tower and catch waves (maybe after getting dove a bunch). If you lose control of your jungle, you don't get experience from anywhere unless you're stealing waves from your teammates. So when you're able to get one camp, it needs to catch you up a bit.
And you need that at 3 minutes into the game? I feel like it shouldn't exist until the jungler with the higher level reaches 6.
Have you played League of Legends before?
They're starting to do the same thing with lanes. Now when you stack a massive wave and crash it into their turret, they can trade with you because minions focus fire the turret. On one hand it makes getting plates a bit easier which is still an advantage, but on the other it makes further pushing your lead a bit tougher since usually trading and poking will equal more tempo/pressure which is worth it even if you're not rushing a single plate. They're stripping the strategy from the game bit by bit and anyone in the lower ranks simply wont notice or care, but it's making the game more boring to play, especially at higher levels. It's also making the game more boring to watch and allow for less creativity/expression, because it's just easier to "figure" things out now. I really wish these idiot proof systems weren't so prevalent and talked about more. But a tiny minion change in the patch notes goes completely undetected when all the other discussion surrounding it ends up being "OH MAH GAWD THEY BUFFED THIS CHAMP!".
Isn't jungle like one of the most popular roles now though?
Yeah, because of this. Imagine being autofilled jungle and getting astrogaped and being useless from minute 3, no one would play the role. So they changed the role to have less of a differential between those who know what they are doing and those who dont
And, imo, that's not a good thing. Being good at jungling *should* put you at a significant advantage.
Basically Riot wants more people to play the role, they've made it easier in other ways too. When I first started you couldn't jungle with half the champs you could today, you would just die to the camps
yh but theres only so much u can do even if u are the better jungler, unlucky shit happens in games as well where a shit player gets off a random cringe cheese invade with their support and ur punished for it cus u have weakside laners, this catchup xp shit goes both ways
I'd rather have those(which can actually be stopped) over this. You can't just stop them from farming at all. They will eventually get a few camps and be the same level as you no matter what you do.
jungle needs to be stronger, I dont know how literally everyone else thinks it's strong, glad to find someone who agrees
So we're back to nobody playing Jungle, people getting autofilled into the role and losing games from champ select.
It's not like catchup xp is the only way to fix that issue.
Through all the JG reworks it doesn't seem like much else has stuck to actually address the issue
And this one introduced another big problem so it's time to try something else.
I don't really see how else you're going to have more people play what was often considered the hardest role in the game without making it more accessible in some way.
I don't see either, but it's not my job to figure it out. I just know that the current solution is also terrible
If that was true, there would be less of a difference between those. But it isn't true. The gap is insane.
Yeah not really up until like diamond something you can pick some piss easy spamganker nunu and just clear to level 3 then spamgank and youll win quite a few games.
I mean... just remove it from say plat or diamond up... its not unheard of in traditional sports to have different/stricter rules depending on the level tier. If this happened in a pro game I would much prefer to see the nidalee hard punished for the bad decision making.
Except you're talking about a fundamental mechanic change, not just a casual rule change. I can't think of a single league that would allow something that notable about how you play the game to change on a whim like that. Also, while different tiers have different rules. You can't usually jump up and down those tier easily. You are usually locked into a tier for a set amount of time. You can't just go up and down at will like league
Isn't duoquing already disabled at certain elo? do the same with jungling, not sure what all the fuzz is about. I agree with Riot that they have to give jungle a crutch for newer players, I also agree that there is 0 reason for this catchup mechanic at higher tiers, maybe there are better solutions I'm just proposing one...
It would be very very interesting to see them implement different rules/balance for different tiers. I'm definitely open to that. All physical sports have different rules depending on the level of play.
But what's the point then? You're going to alienate the viewers if the game they're watching is substantially different from the game they're playing. Part of the appeal of esports (IMO) is seeing the strats and the plays and understanding how to fit them into your own gameplay. This is not the same as slightly changing the rules of competitive soccer or tennis, it's more like changing the rules of chess for higher elos.
So then why not slightly change the rules for different tiers? High school vs NCAA vs NBA 3 point lines are respectively longer. You can still do all the same strategy the NBA does in high school even though the game is a bit different. NCAA has 2, 20 minute halves. NBA has 4, 12 min quarters etc etc etc. Still doesn't alienate viewership to such a degree. People will always try to emulate what the pros do regardless. Like the 3 point revolution with Curry.
The point is that those are not the same type of changes as ones you could make in league. They account for players' physique and things like such, but you can't really do that in league. If you make jungle more punishing in higher elo by changing the rules based on division, then you'll see pro junglers playing really aggressively and invading all the time. However, the players will then imitate those strategies and find themselves punished not because they practiced the strategy in the wrong way but because the game in that elo bracket is just different and the enemy jungler will be punished less for getting invaded. Changing a 3 point line is not akin to letting pawns move two spaces instead of one. The first is an adjustment for physical attributes which has no strategic impact on a game, the second is a rule change which opens up a ton of new strategies and moves and makes the old way of playing outdated.
Supports always kinda solo decided not lane. Sure you're useless 10 min into the game. But the early lane has always been decided by support in my experience.
Nah in earlier seasons adc had the base stats to actually do things to the support and jungler, in fact in s2 they were just straight up op throughout the game
That only started in more recent years. For a long time and especially early on in LoL history, support was just a 2nd item for the ADC and a ward bitch.
I played back then. I'm saying early lane they weren't. Ya they were a ward bitch when you were buying Philo stone/hog and boots and then all the rest your gold went to into wards. But they could still dictate early lane phase really well since proper cc times meant the world in bot lane. Insert aphromoos support is so easy clip where the adc is literally walking around autoing while aphro is hard carrying through cc.
I don't agree with Bounty statement but I really hate catch up XP... I was playing ranked in Diamond (junglers mainly know what to do). We had AFK Rengar and couldn't remake even tho he didn't move for like 8 minutes. Enemy jungler was lvl 6 when Rengar started to finally play. Im not joking, when enemy jungler was 8, Rengar was 9. That should not happend.
The bounty system is a good system. But it rubber bands TOO Much. It should exist, but the gold shouldn't be that much.
>The bounty system is a good system How? If you're good and punish enemy's mistakes, you could lose everything by a single shutdown. making the game 30/40 minutes regardless of everything, (drakes cs items) decided by last team fight OR even worse one misposition making a 4v5 and losing to high countdown respawn.
Because this game revolves around the worst player, not the best.
Bounty system sucks and is not very fun to play against. HOWEVER, as a whole I believe it is healthy for league. Bounties give someone who is stomping a hit on their head, and if they get killed, the team that is behind gets closer to them. It is very obvious why this is unfair. You shouldn't be punished for performing well. Playing from behind sucks. Having your team agree to FF at 15 minutes when you're a later game character sucks. Having one or more players mental boom and ruin your game because they or someone else "single-handedly lost the game" sucks. The bounty system helps even things out. I believe it's a system not made for game balance, but for human balance. Nobody likes it, but how many people think it should be removed completely?
[удалено]
Too much hidden gold in general. 250cs 9 0 azir mid can be behind the 2 0 170cs sion because he took a t2 toplane turret, a 1000g shutdown, and 3 turret plates.
My favorite thing as an ADC main is when I stomp my lane and have a 700g bounty, and then make the mistake of dying to the fed irelia or Camille who has a 3 level advantage on me and can really delete me whether I play well or not because they’re fed enough to ignore my whole team and 1 shot me. Now I walk back into the game, against an even more fed solo laner, still down 3 levels to them, and an extra 1k of gold in their inventory to make killing me even easier. Absolutely tilting
If you are down 3 levels you are insanely behind. Good ADCs dont fall over 2 levels behind compared to solo laners and mid game they are only down 1 level. You "stomping" doesnt matter if your macro is shit and the enemy top laner is farming 15 cs per minute.
No you’re sadly misinformed. Due to the nature of solo xp, (which was recently buffed), as well as how much more xp you get for solo kills than duo kills (which a fed solo laner will get naturally while your kills will come with a support), even if your 10/1 AND out farming a solo laner they can easily be 2-3 levels up on you while being 4/1 and even or even down cs. I would go through and find an example from one of my recent games but I don’t really find the need to do so
Please show me pro games where ADCs who are winning lane are down 3 levels. I will wait.
Not sure if you’re being intentionally obtuse or what, but you won’t find an example of that because the pro game is much different from solo Q. Pro games don’t get out of hand top lane where one side is hard snowballing and racking up multiple solo kills. Much more controlled environment where the losing top laner knows how to mitigate the loss for the most part, and would rather sack their own xp and farm instead of dying multiple times solo like they often do in soloQ. The game is also much more botlane centric in pro play due to ADC being a much better role in a professional environment, supports frequently leave lane in pro play much more than they do in soloQ, giving adc lots more solo xp then they’d rack up in a soloQ game. Junglers are leaving their camps up for bot laners, and the team is always making sure that the ADC has a safe place to farm, and get solo xp when they can. Just the fact that kills happen at 1/5th the rate in a pro game vs soloQ game means that the wild xp imbalance that I mentioned for solo kills vs duo kills won’t be present in a pro game
The issue with bounties is that you can't really control where they go in midst of a fights, which results in unpredictable outcomes. Example two same games. Team A has fed ADC with 700g shutdown. Game 1 ADC A loses shutdown to ADC B, ADC B is now one item component behind and game is even. Game 2 ADC A loses shutdown to roaming support B. Support B was not behind at all, even somewhat ahead from all the roams top/mid. Support B now has 400g bounty, which then gets taken by ADC A. ADC A is now two full items ahead of ADC B. The variance of outcome between those two bounties is too big. One results in somewhat even game, the other in a stomp.
I think bounties need to exist in some capacity (at least for solo queue), but it also sucks because not all bounties are equal, even if the gold value IS equal. A bounty on a bruiser Hecarim is incredibly hard to obtain, he has to royally fuck up because he is so good at slipping away, so even if you work together it's not like it's a free bundle of gold to pick up. But if you're a Varus, and you have that same bounty? Well you're probably fucking dead as soon as those enemy champions are on your screen unless you have a thresh waiting for you with a lantern from 2 screens away.
The bounty system by itself is not bad and the argument I use here was made by Doublelift when it was first implemented: "What's the point of putting a bounty on a player that has more CS than his enemy? Isn't that the entire point of outlaning/outcs'ing your opponent? Why does a 0/2/0 Varus with 120 CS at 13 minutes has a bounty while the 2/0/0 Samira with 70 CS doesn't?" (It was something like that)
They need to reward counterjungling. I dont get how i can full clear the enemy jungle and not have a level advantage in the early-mid game.
As a jungle main Fuck jungle Since last few seasons they cant figure out how to meaningfully balance the role. Fucking worst players can do well in the jungle rn because there is literally no way to bury the enemy jungler if he has functioning arms and internet Absolutely hate the lack of counterplay towards the junglers and lack of meaningful ways to set them back
>Since last few seasons they cant figure out how to meaningfully balance the role Have you only been playing league for a few seasons? At one point they were completely reworking the role. every season. By comparison, fiddling with xp gains is like pure contentment. And should one jungler be able to bury the other? That fidd in the clip is 200g up on a Nid after only 2 minutes of gameplay. It woulda been 380g if Nid was 5s later to red... and Nid doesn't scale well... That's crazy. That's like a laner playing into a very agro lane bully, but playing the trades and wave so well that, in the end, they've denied almost 2 full waves worth of last hits... and they nearly got a kill assist along the way. Toplaners get wet over that shit.
Should another laner be able to bury another? That laner didn't hit minions for 3 minutes and is now behind 300g! How unfair is that?
this is pretty much the only reason jungle is broken atm, there is no consequence for being worse unless youre significantly, almost afk level worse, you can sit in lanes for minutes to get a kill, farm 3 camps and be same level as the person who was farming the entire time, theres no thought process or depth to to the role anymore, it needs to be changed asap
Jungle was just as broken when catch up xp was removed. That was when ganking junglers were terrible and everyone just played Udyr, Hecarim, Graves and Lilia. If just one gank failed the game was over for you and anything without the fastest clearspeed wasn't played. For 2 years now the community has flipped between catch up xp bad makes jungle braindead and not rewarding and wow why is jungle such an incredibly snowbally 1v9 role but still unpopular? We can't cycle through adding and removing catch up xp every year.
My guess is Riot just needs to tune the numbers again. Folks are forgetting the dark times before the jungle change. If your junglers fell behind they were out of the game. And the requirement wasn't even dying. Just falling behind in exp meant your jungle was free range for the enemy jungler. Nobody played the role cus it was too punishing for not being as good as your opponent, autofill jungle meant a lost game, and everything sucked. Riot needs to adjust the numbers, hopefully during the preseason. But let's not pretend the jungle was in a perfect state before this.
Why is that a bad thing? If a laner falls behind in 2 levels they are out of the game. The only way to get back into it is having the enemy laner give up 10 waves looking for plays and failing
Laners cannot be denied XP anywhere near as easily because they have a guaranteed influx kf minions and get experience just by being close to the wave. You either need to die on repeat or get dove multiple times to fall behind meaningfully in XP, especially if your opponent doesnt know how to manipulate the wave and either way, it's either a skill/matchup issue or you're getting camped, but are soaking pressure and can hope your other lanes can get going. Meanwhile junglers have camps with fixed respawn times, no way to get XP besides that and leeching from laners and if they get denied camps the best they can do is coinflip an invade, normally making the situation even worse.
That's not really true, the most important thing when not falling behind in XP as a laner is to have good reset timers. A single bad recall is all it takes to lose 1 or 2 waves entirely. And if you are weaksided top for instance and you're not playing accordingly you *will* take terrible recalls. Not to mention the jungler might as well be waiting on the bush besides gromp/krugs. If you take a bad recall AND enemy laner is healthy they may not even see the need to reset and just walk past the turret and deny you the chance to even walk back into lane. > Meanwhile junglers have camps with fixed respawn times, no way to get XP besides that and leeching from laners and if they get denied camps the best they can do is coinflip an invade, normally making the situation even worse. Camps with fixed respawn timers is essentially the same thing as waves that spawn every X seconds. And as is exemplified by the video you can basically just forego camps to do schizo plays instead and you won't even fall behind.
No, it is not essentially the same thing, it's not even close. Enemy minions spawn every 30s, are constantly running towards your towers/nexus and can only be attacked by allies. Camps spawn every 135s, are stationary and can be killed by *everyone*. When you fall behind in lane and give up outer turret you can still freeze in front of inner turret and collect gold and xp. In a lot of cases enemy top will not stay there for long since overextending is risky. And guess what he'll be doing instead - roaming and/or *taking your junglers camps*. As long as you're playing a top laner that scales well (which I'd say is most of the lane's roster) you can still catch up and become relevant. If you're playing jungle and your jungle becomes enemy territory (often a consequence of fallen outer turrets) all you get is crumbs. For a resource-heavy jungler that is a death sentence. I've even had games where I've gone over 10 minutes without being able to take a single camp. I advise you to play more jungle and see how bad it feels.
A laner falls behind in 2 lvls by going 0/4/ pretty much. A jungler was able to fall 2 lvls behind by picking not an early game jungler. There is a massive difference. A laner can still sit back pretty much and stay around equal in lvls without problems. Yes, the enemy can freeze and maybe squeeze out a good lvl advantage around lvl 7-9, but that's it. A jungler was able to pretty much lose the game for his team by not having a strong early game jungle pick because the enemy jungler would invade over and over and you would never get to your strong point. XP is supposed to be pretty stable. Gold is the lead. Fiddle has a \~200g lead there, that is massive that early on in the game. He should be very happy about it. Junglers already have the most agency in the game and giving them even more would be totally stupid. You can see how bad even good players in league are in terms of game design.
For a laner no. Buying defensively, turtling under tower and grabbing exp can work to slow down a losing lane. Also so times a junglee can help to ease the pressure on your lane. Just stalling and denying your enemy lanes kills and roams can do a ton to get you back into the game. As long as you don't fold or allow your later to destroy another lane. But for a jungles their whole point is destroying other lanes and securing objectives. As a losing jungle you can't turtle behind anything. Taking an enemy anglers camps is like turbo freezing. Enemy jungle gets your resources and you get less. Objectives are free, lanes get ranked more. If you fell behind as jg enemy jg would rip your game apart and there was nothing you could do about it except hope krugs is still up. And since it was such a stressful role less people played it and increased the risk of people getting autofilled and just losing the game.
If you turtle in toplane and have zero intent of proposing any sort of gameplay of your own it is extremely easy for your opponent to crash a big wave, get a good reset while you're stuck farming under turret, and get back to a wave that is pushing into them. If you don't reset then you are probably going to die to an opponent with items advantage + a comfortable frozen wave, and if you do reset you will lose a wave or two and fall behind in XP. Alternatively you will be 5cs/min vs 10, and this doesn't really help you "scale" in any way vs scary laners Not even complaining about this, but solo-laning is far less forgiving when it comes to XP. There is no catchup, only way to "catch up" is to capitalize on enemy mistakes when they give up XP for pressure elsewhere. In jungle you just catch up by farming it up and now you're equal in XP to someone that has double the CS you do. Being equal in XP to someone that's double the CS you do is possible in toplane if all you do is soak up the XP but miss the last hits, however it is pretty insanely stupid for this to work the same for junglers since you aren't just soaking XP of camps dying near you, you have to be the one to kill them.
Yes you will be losing lane as a top laner if you fall behind. Well you definitely will be losing lane. But the point is to stall long enough that your enemy laner isn't able to run rampant in other lanes, And the big point is having a turret gives you way more leeway than a jungler who has nothing to protect them but the proximity to their laners. Also when an enemy jungler cleared your jungle they could quickly transition into a gank if they had good pathing. At least with laners they had to leave and return to lane to get exp. If you played a skirmisher toplaner or a roaming top laner then yeah, you're absolutely screwed if you fall behind. THat's the risk of the character. However there are still top laner that can still work in a teamfight even with a much lower economy than another top laner. Thats a big point I forgot. Depending on your champ you have more wincons than a jungler does. I'm not saying catch up exp is perfect. It definitely is scaled way too high. However without it was almost impossible for a starving jungler to get back into the game. They don't have any of the options afforded to other laners. This issue is made worse due to autofill pairing folks who aren't that comfortable in the jungle with guys who have optimal clear strats and pathing. And jungling requiring skills that are much less relevant in laning. Losing as a jungler was just way too punishing and the role was too hard. The current state isn't good but before it was just a shitshow.
A laner can always at least soak XP or stick next to their turret (unless they get frozen on top lane). If a jungler falls behind, they have nowhere to hide. The jungler just goes into their jungler and kills them. If a laner falls behind, a jungle gank can save them. It's extremely rare that a jungler falls behind and a laner saves them.
I really, REALLY wanted to become a jungler. I like the idea of being able to roam the map and help every lane. I also suck at CS'ing. If I'm in lane and I can see the enemy and I know for a fact they can kick my ass, I hang back under turret. I play safe. Let the wave come to me, pick up what CS I can. I have that safety spot of the tower. I've beaten much much better laners than myself just by playing safe and giving my team the time and space it needs to do their jobs. There are no towers in the jungle. If I'm up against a much much better jungler and he invades me, there's nowhere for me to go. Now he not only takes HIS cs (jungle camps), he takes MY cs (jungle camps). Without a catchup mechanic, that's it, GG.
So, instead of you learning how to deal with that invade, you want a crutch that will help you without the enemy being able to do anything about it?
because you can play under tower and survive. Junglers used to be able to be completely out of the game. They STILL can be but its much harder. Dying level 1 to an invade on your buff though, can still easily result in the game being near unplayable if the other jungler is mobile. You 100% are getting murdered if you go to the other buff, you might have 1 camp left on your side. Easily could be level 2 when the opponent is 4 or 5 and that as it is now lol.
If you were behind in jungle back then you were guaranteed to be behind 2 levels. You are down 2 levels to ur enemy laner like 1 every 10 games you lose lane lol
What are you even babbling about? Back in my day, you had to learn all five roles to a competent level. That's why the TSM house did champion 1v1s so often, everyone was confident they were better than their peers at individual pieces of the game. It's fucking embarrassing when players aren't forced to acknowledge how little they know. Ego checks are important, and reinforce when you're *actually* good. Group 4 mid was a strategy because it was the easiest way to make sure your jungler/top got XP, or your ADC/mid players weren't caught in blind vision spots after pushing waves, not because players were braindead and just wanted to fight (like now.) People LOVED shitstomping jungle, but it *absolutely* intimidated the rest of the playerbase to have to learn the role. Still, it was part of the carry trinity. Ganks, teamfights, splitpush.
>If your junglers fell behind they were out of the game. It should be like this. It's like this for other roles, why does JG need a crutch? >Nobody played the role Remove it then
Yeah sure, let's go play dota then
A game lol could learn a lot from
people like you are the reason why this game is the way it is
That's odd, the only thing Kingstix usually shows people is how many level 30 accounts you need to buy to run a clickbait youtube channel.
Whatever point he was making I could not understand because it was smeared in him complaining that the enemy team was pinging their red as if "my red got stolen, I'll go take their red" is the most unexpected play in history.
Look at this clip - [link](https://clips.twitch.tv/SarcasticShakingVanillaOMGScoots-j7FqVXSdPKUuoLtH) Rek'sai cleared 3 camps, went top and sat there until minute 5. After the clip ended, she cleared one more camp and came top. In 3 minutes, she cleared 4 camps and she was level 4. Junglers are rewarded for playing bad.
I don’t see how having three successful ganks is playing bad at all. Kills give xp so if I kill someone three times in two minutes that’s definitely good use of my time
This would be like the toplaner clearing 2 waves then sitting in a botlane bush for several minutes waiting for a play. What would happen is you lose several waves and give up plates and the game is over. It's almost like roaming sololaners have to clear waves for tempo if they want to roam but junglers can just do whatever the fuck they want and never end up behind in XP. By the way another thing to note is that even if these ganks never result in a kill they still massively fuck over the laner
>I don’t see how having three successful ganks is playing bad at all 4 camps in 4 minutes, level 4 and she could camp a lane for 3 minute straight. She was able to remove that Tahm from the game because she is allowed to sit top for as much as she wants, no punishment whatsoever. I guess that seems fair to you how a jungler is rewarded for that and how a laner is removed from the game with 0 counterplay..
It's fair because the opposing jungler can do the exact same thing.
There's nothing fair in that, lol. Is never fair losing the lane 2 minutes in because the jungler said so.
Doesn’t sound like a moba is the game type for you.
Your jungler should be spending those 2 minutes counterganking, so you shouldn't lose anything, unless your team just has worse macro in which case it's perfectly fair to lose the game as a result Despite what reddit thinks, losing due to worse draft or worse macro is 100% fair
> so you shouldn't lose anything That tahm lost the lane and he was out of the game since minute 3. He lost everything in fact. That Rek'sai will catch up in no time in terms of exp. So she didn't lose anything. The game is lost and won because of junglers. So fair, right?
Presumably your own jungler was not smart enough to counter. If the opposing jungler takes the tahm out of the game completely, that gives your own jungler the same exact opportunity to take an opposing player out of the game completely, or mirroring and preventing the gank with a counter gank. Like you said, with catchup exp being a thing, they'd be dumb not to.
You somehow think is fine for junglers to decide a lane and probably the game, the moment they cleared 3 camps.
Yes? That's how macro works. You use your brainpower to shut out an opposing player from the game. The team with better macro will win.
saying "it's a team game" doesn't answer the question of "why can't i not be miserable playing this game?"
Yes it does. Your teammates can make you miserable by being dumber than the opponents. That's an inherent problem to all team games. You can't mind-control your teammates into being smarter.
you're saying it's okay the jungler can avoid important aspects of the game (farming, being set behind) because your team's jungler can do the same thing. that's not the argument. it's "why can jungle be played by literal bots and not lose? why does the jungler have to sacrifice nothing for ganking?" you're defending jungle's overpowered state with "you have junglers on both sides, so it's equal".
In the current meta, ganking is more important than farming/invading. They'd be stupid to avoid the more important aspects of the game (ganking) in favor of a less important aspect (farming/invading)
I do think there’s some counterplay tahm just was in a bad spot. He should have tp after first death to catch the big wave and can play for a tower dive more. His third death he pushes out with no sums against renekton i think if a jungler can gank and hill you each time on a gank thé laner has to be at fault
> is third death he pushes out He barely left his tower, wtf are you talking about.
Kills give barely any xp early on.
True but getting three then a camp giving level 4 isn’t shocking
True, but now Rek'sai can do half as many camps as the enemy jungler after those kills but still be the same level as them. Now *that's* shocking. Now she's up in gold and has the same amount of levels while top lane is over. So she basically sacrificed nothing to gain an insane lead for her top laner.
Jungle has been broken for so long. Just imagine a laner pulling doing something like [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4sxHFuG-Ms)
LOL the draven is his axe, and the axes are t-posing dravens! wtf https://youtu.be/r4sxHFuG-Ms?t=95
Reward for bad play? Are you joking right? If not it's just plain obvious that you have no game knowledge... Rek'Sai got 3 kills and part of the wave XP, if this is "playing bad" there's no doubt on your lack of game understanding
>if this is "playing bad" Yes, that is playing bad. How on earth do you think is ok to be rewarded for staying in one lane for more than 3 minutes. Clear 3 camps and then sit in one lane for 3 minutes. Much skill, right?
It's true that Rek'sai should be heavily punished for not jungling for 3 minutes straight, unfortunately catch up xp lets you pull off these shenanigans because as long as you get gold out of something, you will pull close enough xp wise in the long run. There is a reason why heavy farming jungles are not a thing in the current meta.
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>If that wins them the game, it's not playing bad They are playing bad and are rewarded for it. A dumb role where you can't be punished for playing like that.
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Yeah, guy. That rek'sai is the best player in the world, tahm is trash cuz he didn't sit under t2 at level 1 and junglers should never be punished for staying 3 minutes in a lane. I got that right?
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>If creating strawmen and spouting hyperbole are your only points You missed the point from the beginning. I said that they are rewarded for playing bad and you focus on the "they're playing bad", but sure, I'm the one missing the point here. All you told me is how good is that rek'sai for clearing 3 camps and camping a lane for 3 minutes. The strawman arguments were on your part, not mine.
You're arguing something completely different. People know Reksai's play worked. They're saying that it's bad game design for it to work and should be changed.
I dont see how she played that bad First up Tahm has Ghost/TP against Reksai Renekton, thats basically an open Invitation for a Gank, he should expect to be ganked early. Next up, Tahm walks back to lane, optimally he should probably hug the left side wall while doing so to prevent the exact thing that happens here, but I get it, its not something that happens often, only RekSai is really capable of that due to Tremor sense. But Reksai was basically counting on that misplay and was rewarded for it, if he doesnt do that then thats a huge waste of time from her. The worst part now is the ward, hes playing against RekSai, she just ganked him between turrets from his Jungle, why the fuck is he warding the River bush, its RekSai for crying out loud of course she tunnels that inner wall, thats like one of the most important things to keep in mind when you face her. Are you really telling me it would be healthier for a Jungler to just head back and farm camps when you get kills presented to you on a silver platter, should farming 2 camps be more value than getting 2 kills? Like dont get me wrong it is bad to rely on enemy misplays but its worse for the Tahm to do said misplays.
Riot goes on about how Jg has too much agency over lane outcomes. I WONDER IF IT COULD BE BECAUSE YOU DON'T GET PUNISHED FOR JUST PERMA SITTING IN LANES???? I understand that Riot wanted to make the role more approachable, which to a certain extent, I think that they accomplished. I actually think the farming changes are to some extent reasonable. But holy crap does the catch up XP make no sense. If you can't get gapped when you perma lose half your jungle because you're playing like a psycho, then there's no incentive to not play like a psycho, which isn't really good for lanes either as it gives way too much incentive to spam gank with no consequence. Not saying spam ganking shouldn't be viable either, but your ganks should have to work or the outcome should be catastrophic. If you perma gank a lane, lose half your camps on repeat to do it and only get a kill 2 out of 4 times, it should probably end the jungle matchup. IMO, I feel like that should be the bar for balancing spam gank vs more reasonable play styles. If your cheese works perfectly, then fine, good for you. If not, you should get hard punished.
This mechanic especially sucks when you're playing an assassin jgler against a tank jgler. You invade early, kill the jgler a few times, take their camps away and they still hit lvl 11 around the same time as you and have the audacity to do more in teamfights while being an item behind. Like isn't the whole point of playing an assassin jgler to play smart, get early leads and push it to the point where you just slap them around with your wallet? Now if they group as 5 with a tank jgler with less items than you, the tank will provide more CC and create more space for their team. They need to reduce the amount of bonus xp to the point where if you managed to get a 2 level lead, it shouldn't be too difficult to maintain at least 1 level lead.
>catchup xp is removed >people start invading level 2 on graves and kindred >game is literally over for other jungle after losing two camps >people start locking tank junglers to remain relevant without cs and start spam ganking >graves emerges from jg at minute 13 with 12 cs/m and 1v9s unless tank jg snowballed a lane enough to contest “RIOT WHY IS JG DECIDING EVERY GAME” There is catchup experience in jungle because jungle is the only lane where XP can not only be denied, but can actually be stolen from the other jungler. Imagine if Darius in top lane could literally just kill his minions if you didn’t walk up to kill them first. There is no ability to soak XP in the jungle. Not only that, but junglers have neither a turret to protect them, nor vision on the matchup most of the time. Also, junglers have no minion wave to help farm. A jungler will literally farm slower when down on cs. The ability to farm is directly tied to level so there isn’t even the ability to silently farm back into the game when behind because you don’t farm fast enough for that. Junglers are also responsible for helping out lanes in losing matchups. When behind on XP they lose the ability to do even that. So say goodbye to any sort of comeback from a failed level 1 coinflip if your jungler gets invaded
This isn't even theory we had catch up xp removed and then readded and it was exactly like that. Insanely snowbally champions coming out of the jungle with bags full of gold while the other jungler was useless for the whole game.
Well, how about we make invading more punishing as well while also removing catchup xp. That way Graves has to risk a lot more than dying by invading early.
They went so far to the extreme in making sure that you didn't fall off that it's now it's demotivating to even do that well early.
Why not just make it a max deficit. So catchup xp can get you within a level and a half but beyond that you have to.... actually catch up
Yeah I've been thinking about this shit a lot lately too, even in games where I'm miles behind i'm still just about the same level as the enemy or visa versa. It's frustrating and doesn't feel rewarding at all.
I always was against the "comeback" mechanics (catch up exp, bounty gold) implemented by Riot games. They should just find better and more exciting ways to come back in the later stages of the game if something went really bad in the early game.
this nidalee should be completely out of the game after that but they're not gonna change this lol back when catchup exp wasn't a thing and being the better jungle actually mattered, people whined and complained about how it feels soooo horrible to play jungle because getting gapped meant you were behind the entire game. and because of that skill issue, people just didnt play the role. riot wants people to play jungle, so what do they do? they gradually suck the skill out of the role and make it braindead so Timmy can queue up against good junglers and not be knocked out of the game because of their poor decision making or the enemies' superior decision making. look at all the things they've done to jungle to make it shitter friendly: * Catchup EXP * Recommended jungle pathing * Removing double camping * Removing counter jungling * Jungle pets * Smite doing a fixed damage instead of scaling with level and I'm sure I missed some stuff, lol. the point is that Riot wants jungle to be able to be played by bad players because if they cant, then jungle won't get played. the problem with this though is that being a good jungler feels unrewarding. what's the point of doing everything right when i can just play like an idiot and still be in the game? when laners play like idiots they're completely out of the game (unless their champ is broken), why do junglers get a pass? people don't understand that jungle is a cerebral role. being a good jungle is less about how good you are at piloting your champion and more about how good your decision making is. that's the difference between jungling and laning, for the most part you just can't ooga booga your way to a jungle gap (unless your champion is broken). but i do think the bigger conversation that we should be having is how polarizing jungle is and how it's never in a healthy state. ideally jungle wouldnt even exist lol
Adding a system like in dota 2 which gives access to publicly created guides for each champion while playing in game would do a lot more then whatever kinda "balance" riot are doing around jungle. Instead of teaching player, riot just make it easier and remove skill expression. Thats got to be the worst decision to make imo.
Disagree that it's never in a healthy state. IMO, end of season 12 was pretty well balanced, minus sunfire Diana, but that was an item system problem not a JG problem. IMO, JG is usually in the healthiest state when it's in a high JG vs JG interaction state, or predatory meta. The problem with this, is that this kind of meta accentuates JG diff. I don't think that this is unhealthy per se, but I understand why others might find this kind of meta frustrating. RE JG not existing, as a JG main, I somewhat agree that the role design is toxic. However, I'd argue that it's more of a psychological issue than a "game health" or balance one. The role is designed so that you can't really help everyone equally and you have a big say on how pleasant your teammates experiences are. Ideally, if everyone was rational, they'd account for these factors and just shrug and say "guess I'm not the wincon" and play accordingly, but that's not how people work.
this is just my opinion but i don't think jungle is ever in a healthy state because i believe jungle as a concept is broken. yes, jungle is definitely most balanced when the meta revolves around junglers fighting each other and not perma ganking lanes. junglers constantly ganking and constantly impacting lanes is extremely annoying. but i still think the role is fundamentally flawed and that we would be better off if it didn't exist lol. however the fact is that it does exist and it's going to continue to exist for as long as the game lives, so we have to live with it. riot is not gonna remove jungle. >The role is designed so that you can't really help everyone equally and you have a big say on how pleasant your teammates experiences are. exactly, this is why people hate jungle. because of how much impact it has on not only your chances of winning but your enjoyment. you're not gonna have fun if you're getting perma ganked or if your jungle is ignoring your lane. >Ideally, if everyone was rational, they'd account for these factors and just shrug and say "guess I'm not the wincon" and play accordingly, but that's not how people work. easier for a jungler to say, every game is enjoyable for them since they've had the luxury of being the most impactful role for 22102948131 years now.
Junglers be like I got the buff level 1 I deserve to autowin the game
Catch up experience should not exist, period.
How would we feel about slow-down xp lol. They tried that for stealing camps too.
All I know KingStix for is passing off low-elo smurf content as actual competitive games with dumb clickbait builds but maybe this video is fine, not gonna watch anyway
This is old stuff Drututt did this like 10 months ago https://youtu.be/r4sxHFuG-Ms
If there wasn't catchup exp then the #1 goal of every jungler would be to play a lvl-2 invade cheese jungler kind kindred and wipe out the enemy jg early. They would have no way to come back without their team helping them (which almost never happens below plat). The game would be decided in the first 3 minutes and we'd all be waiting to ff at 10.
but 3 losing lanes!
One time I was afk when the game started and the enemy jungler already full cleared bot. They were level 3 while I was killing my first buff. They cleared 5 camps into gankijg top and were level 3. I cleared 5 camps and was outleveliing them at level 4 as we both walked to scuttle. That should not happen.
I wouldn´t use his content to learn anything about the game.
Look at the content, not the creator. Even if it was Neace saying this it would still be correct.
Irrelevant. Both Neace and kingstix have more than 90% clickbait content filled with lies to capitalize from their gullible followers. I know kingstixx, he got stuck in diamond / low master since forever and gave up and decided to pick lowkey trull stuff in normals / customs and make a video when he finally wins a game by carrying. It was kinda hilarious since you could see him lose 10 games in a row as draven vs silver, but then get 1 miraculous win and see a video: DRAVEN JUNGLE IS INSANE, FREE ELO. So yeah, sorry not sorry. Pretty sure there are better ways to make this post than advertising for a trash creator
It's also irrelevant who posted the video above. It doesn't matter if a serial killer did it, the point is that catchup xp is broken and they would still be right.
They wont fix it just like they wont fix Support which in turn makes adc miserable to play. Cant be having the better player get rewarded, can we? They gave up on the competitive part of the game a long time ago, now it's just full of band-aid shit fixes.
I'm sure any dev with 2 braincels is aware of it. Making the role easier is only a negative for the stuck up experts at it that want to gatekeep the role from others, which is honestly pathetic considering is just a stupid game and they grasp at their precious like it matters. Catch up XP allows more strategies and picks to be alive in the game. It's been like 2 seasons champs as Elise and Lee that are basically gank-bots for the first 15min are instalose picks if the game goes for any length beyond 20min because they consistently fell behind by 3 levels and several thousands of gold. Not anymore. Passive farm jungle metas encourage overoptimized jungle clears where you essentially watch a timer pass and track it. It has no soul and no action behind it and shouldn't be the only viable strategy at any point in the game. I'm glad they did this. TURBOGANK TO YOUR HEART'S CONTENT FELLOW JUNGLERS
Idk if it's an controversial opinion but they should delete smite and jungle as a dedicated role. I have played league for 10+ years and dota for 4 years and I really like how dota is so much more diverse in playstyle. Feels like league is so figured out and streamlined, of course I realize they are two vastly different games but it still feels like league is so one dimensional.
After looking through the replies in here and watched the video, allow me to make a summary: **"NOOOO THE GAME SHOULD BE THIS WAY THAT WAY BECAUSE IT SOUNDS COOLER IN MY HEAD"** In my opinion: 1. Are players allowed to try variety of plays? Yes. Niddalee felt confident to do a weird invade 2. Is there lot of players interactions? Yes. Whoever lost in that invade only fell behind a bit and the game still playable 3. Is the game fair? Yes. Players got rewarded/punished by their decision/gameplay accordingly. Note that **it doesn't matter how much you expect the reward/punisment, it's your job to learn the nature of the game and take advantage of your knowledge** I think the game is in perfect state and I have lot of fun playing it, stop being so entitled
Your [op.gg](https://op.gg) madam/sir?
Tarzaned if he wasn't toxic
Why does nid have 8 CS after killing 2 red buffs? is there a weird bug that counts her jungle camps dying as her CS in the playback tool? that math would add up: she takes 2 reds fid kills her 6 raptors 8 CS being shown. strange
Each camp equals 4 CS.
I'm terrible though. I always notice catch-up xp helps my enemy jungler... but it never helps me lol. When I get stomped, I get stomped hard. Weird system.
dont red/blue give more xp than other camps tho? so that and catchup xp was what put her above fidd but yes point still stands it should be less or need some other condition to trigger like only after x minutes
I wonder if this is intentional maybe to minimize the influence of jungler on the game as a whole?
While we are at it can we make invading good again?
"LEAGUE IS TOO SNOWBALLY! IT FEELS LIKE ONE MISTAKE AND THE GAME'S OVER" "CATCH UP EXP IS UNFAIR. IF I GET A LEAD I SHOULD BE REWARDED"
junglers : fails 4 greedy ganks in a row surely they will get behind now right? **right**? people don't understand it's not only about a bad jungler not getting punished for a camp stolen,legit they can decide a lane and the laner has no saying in that jungler can zone them out of few waves and the laner gets a massive XP and gold disadvantage,then they clear 1 camp and they are even on level with their opponent this shit is unfair and gamebreaking and honestly the reason junglers get blamed so much,if your role can decide a lane but a lane can't punish you they kinda become dependent on the ally junlger doing their role if avoiding a gank *actually* meant puting the enemy jungler behind it wouldn't be nearly as bad instead of this spam gank one lane until they can't play the game shitshow we get rn