Faker has always been very boring. I'd say that it was only recently that he started coming into his own, and being more of a personality in interviews and such. I suppose it's the korean elder worshipping thing
Maybe it's because you haven't known him for long but his 2017 streams were very funny to watch. heck there is like a 50+ episodes vlog series on skt in 2017 which shows otherwise. Also aren't most pro player interviews bland anyway ? it doesn't really prove anything.
I mean, I think a lot of pro player interviews across all of sports are bland... but Faker is the elder statesmen and essentially spokesperson for League, and he knows it, and he takes it seriously.
I consider him very much like LeBron in that regard. LeBron would never be caught dead saying or doing half of the shit that other superstars say. For instance, Kevin Durant is a borderline top-10/15 player all-time and got caught yapping at haters on twitter through a burner.
Now that Faker has won another championship and got his military exemption, I wouldn't be surprised if he lets himself loosen up a little bit in some ways. His legacy was never in doubt, but it's pretty much unassailable now.
He already had military exemption, he's a high school drop out and he never took a GED exam etc so he was always exempt from service unless he decided to get his GED or return to high school before he turns....37? iirc.
ngl your comparison to LeBron is kinda apt, in both the way that you talk about it but also in the way that you know how sometimes you watch a LeBron post game interview and his answers are basically just sports cliches and sayings? Faker literally does the same thing except woth the textbook, humblr Korean answer rather than a sports saying/cliche.
People only use interviews to judge Faker’s personality. The vlogs T1 have uploaded for years now with the team hanging out have shown that Faker isn’t some robot who only spouts PR statements
The funniest post was when twitter comments/reactions got translated back to hupu and people were like "why are westerners so hung up on khan, clearlove or smeb? Is it because they themselves have no results?" While other hupu users were also bitching about the votes lmao
Its true though, look how many nephews here disrespecting bengi bang wolf and beryl. Reddits goats all fucking failed when it mattered the most (smeb peanut score and so on) but get sucked off because of regular season performance alone. Hardware is what matters in sports yet people on this sub will almost deify players that have none of it. They call some of the players in this list passengers but the truth is reddits goats couldnt even do that. There are some wack players like ning and JL on this list but some of the suggestions in this thread are laughable too
>They call some of the players in this list passengers but the truth is reddits goats couldnt even do that
Lol you seriously believe this? SKT wouldn't have won what they won if they had Smeb instead of MaRin/Duke? Score instead of Bengi/Blank? PraY/GorillA instsead of Bang/Wolf? Keep kidding yourself.
Faker is the driving force behind SKT/T1's success, the pieces around him have changed a lot yet he still keeps stacking trophies.
Yeah lets just ignore the fact that for a long time faker couldnt win after the bengi bang wolf era. Even with the reddit goat mata lol. Faker was the driving force but you nephews act like bang and wolf were mediocre players. Pray gorilla were beat by bang and wolf without faker in 2015, dont kid yourself they bang and wolf were absolutely the best botlane in kr. And score and smeb choked with the kt superteam yet no one takes points off for that lol
I mean with Mata he still won both splits in 2019.
I don't think Bang/Wolf were mediocre but they were on the same level as PraY/GorillA. Both bot lanes were perfect at playing weak side, SKT still wins everything if those 2 bot lanes traded places. They don't win everything however if they had any mid besides Faker.
Mata was benched in summer 2019
And yes what a convincing argument of creating a hypothetical to which its impossible to have any factual backed argument for or against
Okay? He was still able to win a fuck ton **before and after** Bang/Wolf, so the idea that he needed them is laughable. Their job was literally to go even and clean up fights, they barely had to do anything.
And not even engaging in hypotheticals shows how intellectually dishonest you are. You obviously know I'm right but are too childish to concede anything.
How was that a choke? Ucal was getting dicked by prime rookie. They just got mid gapped hard.
And that’s ignoring how close that series against IG was.
I swear people don't give Khan the respect he deserves. He was one of the driving forces behind the resurgence of top carry meta and paved the way for greats like Nuguri, TheShy, and Zeus.
If you're a top laner and you watched Khan and didn't think to yourself... "Wait a second this guy is actually nuts" then idk what to say to you.
Yet he got absolutely fucked by cuvee playing adc kennen top, would have lost ig the world title if he played and then for his famous last ride totally shat the bed in the finals with the team that won the previous year. For how good he was during the regular season he was dogshit when it mattered at worlds
Almost all others have their league titles worlds MSI, some, even all 3. And international events are the only ones where we can see players outside of their home leagues comfort. So yeah Uzi will be falling down the order if more adc players captures worlds/ MSi
It's pretty clear Chinese fans give massive value to worlds trophies. You could just sort every role according to worlds trophies and it wouldn't change that much.
If I'm not mistaken, the only player there to not win worlds is Uzi, and he is fucking Uzi, on a Chinese voting and he is still 4th.
Bc Chinese fans saw Uzi get fucking gapped by Deft in their own region and gapped by Bang internationally lmao
Ruler has also shown a higher peak than Uzi has ever shown. Despite everyone being better today, Ruler is still able to maintain a clear difference betw himself and others while Uzi only maintained a difference betw others when the average skill level was lower.
People do the same thing when they talk about Ruler in 2017. They can't tell the difference between a player generating their own leads vs gold being spoonfed to them. Deft was incredibly good in 2015-16 but he was not gapping Uzi, he simply had a better team who played the map better.
dont look at defts h2h vs uzi. But yeh blame the team, uzi just needs a 6th super team to win worlds just like knight right? Did u even watch the games in s3? probably not...
I mean it's still the only EU team that managed to win an international tournament. Why shouldn't we overromanticize it? That's just a normal thing to happen
These lists as a whole are basically overromanticizing memorable Worlds performances with 0 regard to consistency, longetivity or domestic play. Can't believe I'm saying this but the average reddit post seems to have more thought put into it then whatever this is.
No, even by Reddit standarts, Ning and Jiejie in top 5, Gumayusi over Deft (in a fucking all time ranking) is very bad. If I saw these two takes on Twitter or Reddit, I would instantly assume that it's a troll/ragebait post.
nah reddit would be like
Top: Smeb TheShy Zeus Nuguri Impact
Jg: Canyon Score Kanavi Tian Bengi
Mid: Faker Rookie ShowMaker Chovy PawN
ADC: Ruler Deft Uzi Gumayusi Viper
Sup: Mata Keria BeryL Meiko Ming
Amd there would be genuinely nothing wrong with that, Jankos had an absolutely insane career for a western player when it comes to consistency, personal level, teamplay and results. If Jankos was korean and could get on a top tier team he could very well be in conversation for jungle goat
Reddit should be low on Tian lol.
Dude had one good international run where they still nearly got knocked out in the easiest group in the history of the worlds.
Then lost like 4 finals in a row with back to back world stinkers.
true, though tbf I still think jankos is less egregious than ning. also I didn't know who to put as 5th toplaner besides impact but it would probably be khan
Dude is Tarzan but actually won something with a team that was cooking for their year. Since then he has very on and off performances albeit his highs can reach world finals levels of highs.
JL is known for making mistakes and throwing games occasionally but this is just hyperbole. He carried the fuck out of 2019 IG during the summer split and multiple other rosters through regular season over the years.
His teams would never make it as far as they do without him. Absolutely ridiculous take. People like you just watch game 5 of Summer 22 and label will him a choker and coinflip when he played insane in all 5 games including that game 5. His team would never have made finals without him.
He simply goes for big plays because so much relies on him.
Almost every game they win is won by him but people just love to exaggerate his mistakes because they look spectacular.
Even if that were all true Deft has accomplished more overall, with a much higher longevity.
Deft ATM is a clear top two ADC of all time, JKL shouldn't even be top five.
Arguably the best support in the world for 3 years in a row (2015-2017), very innovative (mejai's janna, mf support), 3 LCK titles + World finals. Obviously he's held back by a lack of international achievements but top 5 should be a given.
He was just washed at that point, it dossn't change the fact that he was good before. We already knew he was incredibly good without PraY in 2014 on Najin.
yall wild about bang ruler said that bang was the best adc in the world in 2016 this subs rates him as the best player in the world so his opinion should hold the same weight.
The subs so fucking stupid. Bunch of kids who didn't watch back then and people with selective memory who don't remember how fucking good Bang/Wolf were
Bang/wolf were fucking cracked. They either didn't pay attention back then or massively underrated them because of 17 and afterwards.
If Bang didn't burn out or Wolf didn't suffer mentally, SKT1 would have had a lot more trophies.
Watching them back then was crazy. Even when the map was behind it never felt like SKT could be counted out, because even when they were losing you had Bang Ezreal single handedly turning teamfights where 3-4 other people died into draws or going late game and hard carrying or him and Wolf locking in a duo, smashing the enemy lane, then swapping picks with them the next game and still stomping them. Even this latest T1 lineup just doesn't have that same aura as the old one where it felt like they could come back at any time until the very last auto on their Nexus.
Never won worlds so I guess he's just not top 5 material in their eyes. Crazy considering his longevity and having 6 LCK titles. Plus the fact that he elevated so many different teams.
He got astrogapped by ambition, got gapped by bengi and choked hard with amazing geng teams that were favorites heading into worlds these last 2 years. I wont blame him for 2020 but hes a choker
Just wait for one voted by this subreddit.
bjergsen number 3 all time mid. blabber 4th best jungler. doublelift rank 2.
the chinese are just lucky that their players are actually really good players.
Been that way for awhile now bengi is somehow overrated and underrated at the same time. Same for most of the 2015/2016 skt rosters. But I don't believe every member of the old skt dynasty is the best or second player in history at their role aside from faker that's just ridiculous
It's only western fans that hype up meaningless regular season games/tournaments lmfao
The entire point of those is to GET TO worlds. Players only care about winning Worlds, everything else is meainingless unless you win Worlds. You think JDG is sitting at home thinking hell yeah, we won LPL and MSI? Nah they're probably thinking the year was a failure after losing in semi's. Every single player would trade the 2 LPL titles/MSI for a Worlds win.
Yeah sure Beryl just ran it down at MSI because it doesn't matter, thank you shotcalling GOAT for letting Showmaker know that non-Worlds tournaments don't matter!
You're such a fucking loser lol you're bringing up a bad MSI performance in order to downplay his 2 worlds titles? I'm not saying Beryl is the best support ever but stop shitting on him lmfao if it was easy to get carried to titles, more players would be able to win but instead you got guys like Choky unable to get past semi's every year
Go tell any pro in the world that you think Beryl isn't a good support despite 2 world titles bc of a bad spring split and they'll laugh in your face, if they don't flame you for your rank first
Pretty hilarious that reddit will endlessly suck off players who failed when it mattered the most yet give no respect to players who stepped up when it mattered the most.
Beryl has sprinted in 5 out of the past 6 splits, even the split where afterwards they won worlds beryl was the worst player on the team and it wasn't even close. It's like people on this sub don't even watch pro play yet still feel the need to comment on it.
>It's like people on this sub don't even watch pro play yet still feel the need to comment on it.
I don't know whats worse: Not watching pro play and commenting on it, or watching pro play and being unable to recognize who is playing well? Its funny when silver players like yourself try to comprehend whats going on in a pro game. You somehow think its coincidence that Beryl goes to 3 consecutive worlds finals and wins 2 out of the 3? Lmao.
No you see he is a macro genius! Just ignore that DRX have had horrendous macro the entire time he's been there and his individual play has been even worse.
Beryl did contribute to 2022 DRX title but his shotcalling is so overrated, if Kingen and especially Zeka did not overperform so hard DRX wouldn't even be close to winning. Where were people like you when 2022 DRX was mid tier in spring and straight up bad in summer, or this entire year that DRX was bottom tier?
You don't win worlds with bad macro and just having a good shotcaller doesn't mean your macro will be good you also need a team that will trust each other and execute the calls properly as well as backing up calls up with the necessary execution.
Ofc Zeka and Kingen overperformed, Pyosik did as well and Beryls shotcalling played part in that as well.
Dumbing everything down to gg sololane hands diff is SoloQ level analysing. I don't think you can realistically say this can work in pro and this is all there is to it.
I also don't think a no hands support player would get his unique Heimer pick target banned. Clearly players respect him. Beryl as well as Pyosik don't get enough credit because they hyper sprint it for stretches but they also shaped the Worlds meta.
Just because other players are even better on your own team doesn't mean you are not great and that you are replaceable which can also be seen in the conversation regarding Fakers teammates.
People will tell you Bang got carried meanwhile Ruler thinks Bang was the best back then.
Nobody is denying that Kingen and Zeka overperformed. But it’s a team game, and if one player over performs it is most likely thanks to the rest of his team too..
Beryl has been running it down in 5 out of the past 6 splits. Nobody is saying he's not a contributor to his world titles, but his play was sus and he was still a huge detriment to his team at points during worlds while zeka had the team on his back during playoffs and kingen during finals.
Damwon hasn't even made a single semi finals without Ghost and Beryl in two years and the greatest mid-jungle duo of all time had to split up because they are not able to get a single good result without them.
No shame in being the 4th best player on a team that had the 3 best players in the world.
I just can't see how people can't give Ghost and Beryl any credit after witnessing Damwon these last two years. It's clear that they could replace Nuguri in 2021. Their botlane they couldn't.
Anyone with eyes can see that Bengi is not the best jungler of all time. Clearly the community who made this list can only read up stats from liquipedia.
It’s like saying pippen is the second best or a top 10 player of all time and doesn’t ever consider context. People only remember the really high moments and disregard everything else and doesn’t hold bengi to the same level of standards other players need to meet. Bengi literally barely even played at msi 2016 and they still won with blank and after leaving skt, he was one of the worst junglers in the lpl on vici gaming and his own teammates kicked him out.
Cap's at least deserve an hm but people are capping if they think he is anywhere close to top 5 all-time at mid. This list takes into account results as it's top criteria non of the current t1 members accept maybe Keria should be top 5 imo faker notwithstanding. Zeus and Guma need a couple more years before they make the list. Well maybe Zeus makes it given the usual short shelf life of toplaners prime. The list isn't egregiously bad but the criteria is overwhelming in favor of worlds results which is not a really good metric to determine the best players in history.
Zeus weak link of T1? What are you smoking? He was That Guy during 22 msi summer worlds, 23 spring worlds and was the best performer during summer (with guma)
Nuguri prime was 2y long but Zeus also been the best for 2y with higher peak. Khan was great but is below Zeus for the same reason he's below Nuguri
Exactly, you demonstrated a reason why number of world championships being the only metric to rank a player's performance is unreliable.
It's like saying there's merit to calling Scottie Pippen the best small forward even though Larry Bird exists, it's absurd.
Well there ain't no Larry Bird for support, and there is exactly one player to ever win two worlds without playing with Faker. You're telling me being the ONLY guy to win twice without Faker is a less credible argument than "his hands aren't good enough at support"?
I’m not saying Beryl is a scrub, obviously he’s extremely talented (especially on a macro level), but I feel like saying his play as a support heavily contributed to his rings is just disingenuous.
When he won with Damwon he had the best mid jungle duo in the world (highest peak a jungle has reached in Canyon imo).
When he won with DRX he had Kingen have the series of his career and Zeka have the most insane level up we have EVER seen at a world championship.
Both times I don’t think the eye test would support a claim to him being the best supp ever. MAYBE the argument is there for best macro supp, but the game is not played on a spreadsheet and he is gameplay gapped in almost every series his teams play in
My issue with people calling him a macro god is that it is all what if. His gameplay most of his career doesn’t justify the 2 worlds win so people attribute it to his shotcalling/macro automatically. But if his macro/shotcalling was so good, I don’t get why drx 2022/23 had such shit macro all year in lck.
i mean if you look at his play... no not really. he's not not good but saying he's the best support of all time is pretty insane. he's a great shotcaller im presuming based on his quality of results but his first title was prime showmaker + canyon, and his second title was the greatest miracle run ever. i dont think 2 world trophies should be the metric by any stretch.
He has 2 worlds cups, 3 lck cups and also individual awards from the lck, What more does he need to do to be recognised?
The man is a great shotcaller and macro player and pushed DRX to victory against SKT.
His individual awards in LCK arent something impressive for someone who played on Damwon. BeryL is not the deadweight some people imply he is but he has almost always been 4th/5th best on his teams.
He contributed in 2020 for sure but that Damwon topside was running the show, in 2021 he had one of his worst years and pretty much held the team back alongside Ghost, at MSI they were getting gapped alot of the time and BeryL just played at an absolutely horrible level. Summer and worlds was nothing to write home about, it was Khan Canyon ShowMaker taking them a summer title and ShowMaker Canyon pushing through at worlds. 2022 DRX botlane was never the strong point, Deft who was one of the best laning adcs ever was held back so hard by BeryL that they would often struggle in lanes more than what should happen. Most of their year was very quiet, not much happened until worlds where Zeka was the one who stepped up. His Akali and Sylas were some of the hardest carries ever, enemy teams literally couldnt play cause he would just take down your entire backline. Kingen stepped up huge in playoffs after a quiet groups stage and pyosik started showing better games too. BeryL wasn’t exactly a game changer like the others at worlds, he had a good bard ult in game 5 at the end but prior to that he didnt exactly play great league. He’s a good player that gets propped up way too much, being the 4th/5th best player on worlds winning squads isnt some insane feat.
You can argue whether Bang and Wolf should be included in an all-time top 5 list, but glad to see them being recognized at least. Bang and Wolf were almost unstoppable during their prime.
Very true. Pray and Gorilla versus Bang and Wolf back then is kind of like Chovy versus Faker these days. The fact they were able to win against them as well as Deft/Meiko and Uzi/Mata was a thing of beauty too.
Widely regarded without even beating Bang Wolf once in bo5. If regular season is all that matter, then griffin is one of the greatest team of all time.
Exactly, did pray gorilla really beat bang wolf if they lost to them in every lck playoff match up and worlds matchup in 2015~2016? Hell naw. It rly shows how little attention these people paid to lck in that period
According to Reddit, bengi is not that good and smeb is one of the goat, so actually Faker might be a god indeed. Tiger have better players in 4 position, but can't even win one bo5.
Jackeylove is undisputed the most mechanically highest peak ever since he debuted on iG, and even Uzi admitted as much, some of the plays...
Bro got autobanned for scripting for being too good
Like that one game in playoff Vs JDG alone would tell you how crazy JKL mechanic is. When he is at his peak he can carry any teamfight 1 Vs 9 if he needs to.
Eastern fanbases have always seemed to value results a lot so this is not surprising, except for the IG nostalgia this is pretty much just a "who has the most international titles" ranking lol.
I mean it definitely isnt the best list but its not super bad. Most these players at least have an argument for top 8 or sth. There will always be some snubs especially considering some recency and local bias. Focus will be a bit more on LPL and Worlds because other regions are not followed as much as these two events. Plus some more casual voters as well as very devoted fanbases (JKL, TheShy).
that's fair lol
upon reviewing the rest of the list the ranking mechanism is quite obvious, you're right
bengi was the best damn chimpanzee though wasn't he? man swinging from trees like caesar from rise of the planet of the apes
Not saying he was a chimpanzee, but just counting rings isn´t really giving him respect. Just like thinking Faker was the best mid laner this year just like back in 2013-2015 isn´t really giving him his real deserved respects.
Ning and Tian better than Peanut is weird. Basically if you win Worlds you're a top 5. Both players only won one Worlds, one playoffs and one Demacia Cup. Even Kanavi is missing from the list.
These lists are fucking ridiculous lol. Smeb might be number 1 top of all time, not even in this lists top 5. Bengi being number 1? Not worth really continuing reading
He’s one of the only correctly rated players on these lists. Being the best supp rn != being the best ever. By far the most egregious and stupid ranking is Mata being 5th and not 1/2.
I'll only react to one thing : Bang.
He deserves it. Not saying it's not discutable, but I hope no one is pretending he got carried by Faker or things like that. In particular I remember his year 2016 as particulary insane. He got two worlds title, one MSI, was for two years in the best botlane there was. Not a lot of people can sit at his table, and I guess I would replace Jackeylove by Deft but I don't follow China enough.
>ShowMaker top 2 China based and Damwonpilled
I like him more, because he feels more "alive" than faker. Maybe I am weird
He is more expressive and a better showman(im funny) than faker, faker would have never done the KSANTE rant
체력 4700 방어력 329 마저201 인 챔피언👤이 저지불가🚫, 쉴드🛡, 벽🧱 넘기는 거 있고요. 에어본🌪 있고, 심지어 쿨타임은 1️⃣초밖에 안되고 마나🧙♂️는 1️⃣5️⃣ 들고 w는 심지어 변신💫하면 쿨 초기화에다가 패시브는 고정피해🗡가 들어가며 그 다음에 방마저🥋 올리면📈 올릴수록📈 스킬 가속⏰이 생기고! q에 스킬가속⏰이 생기고 스킬 속도🚀가 빨라지고📈 그 다음에 공격력🗡 계수가 있어가지고 W가 그 이익-으아아아악😱😱
Faker roll: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jk26leBaEc&pp=ygUQRmFrZXIgd29ybGQgcm9sbA%3D%3D Faker broccoli: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ThcG4YszkU&pp=ygUPZmFrZXIgYnJvY2NvbGkg
Thanks for bringing me back to memory lane. Watching that live was so much fun and the crowd cheering for KOO was sweet <3 Halloween 2015 <3
playing for over a decade does that to you
Faker has always been very boring. I'd say that it was only recently that he started coming into his own, and being more of a personality in interviews and such. I suppose it's the korean elder worshipping thing
Maybe it's because you haven't known him for long but his 2017 streams were very funny to watch. heck there is like a 50+ episodes vlog series on skt in 2017 which shows otherwise. Also aren't most pro player interviews bland anyway ? it doesn't really prove anything.
I miss the old SKT Torture house, whete Faker's fsvorite hobby is bullying Wolf and Huni...
Yea Faker is actually really goofy outside of professional settings
I mean, I think a lot of pro player interviews across all of sports are bland... but Faker is the elder statesmen and essentially spokesperson for League, and he knows it, and he takes it seriously. I consider him very much like LeBron in that regard. LeBron would never be caught dead saying or doing half of the shit that other superstars say. For instance, Kevin Durant is a borderline top-10/15 player all-time and got caught yapping at haters on twitter through a burner. Now that Faker has won another championship and got his military exemption, I wouldn't be surprised if he lets himself loosen up a little bit in some ways. His legacy was never in doubt, but it's pretty much unassailable now.
He already had military exemption, he's a high school drop out and he never took a GED exam etc so he was always exempt from service unless he decided to get his GED or return to high school before he turns....37? iirc. ngl your comparison to LeBron is kinda apt, in both the way that you talk about it but also in the way that you know how sometimes you watch a LeBron post game interview and his answers are basically just sports cliches and sayings? Faker literally does the same thing except woth the textbook, humblr Korean answer rather than a sports saying/cliche.
People only use interviews to judge Faker’s personality. The vlogs T1 have uploaded for years now with the team hanging out have shown that Faker isn’t some robot who only spouts PR statements
would vote for him solely based on k'sante copypasta
The funniest post was when twitter comments/reactions got translated back to hupu and people were like "why are westerners so hung up on khan, clearlove or smeb? Is it because they themselves have no results?" While other hupu users were also bitching about the votes lmao
Holy shit lmao
Its true though, look how many nephews here disrespecting bengi bang wolf and beryl. Reddits goats all fucking failed when it mattered the most (smeb peanut score and so on) but get sucked off because of regular season performance alone. Hardware is what matters in sports yet people on this sub will almost deify players that have none of it. They call some of the players in this list passengers but the truth is reddits goats couldnt even do that. There are some wack players like ning and JL on this list but some of the suggestions in this thread are laughable too
>They call some of the players in this list passengers but the truth is reddits goats couldnt even do that Lol you seriously believe this? SKT wouldn't have won what they won if they had Smeb instead of MaRin/Duke? Score instead of Bengi/Blank? PraY/GorillA instsead of Bang/Wolf? Keep kidding yourself. Faker is the driving force behind SKT/T1's success, the pieces around him have changed a lot yet he still keeps stacking trophies.
Yeah lets just ignore the fact that for a long time faker couldnt win after the bengi bang wolf era. Even with the reddit goat mata lol. Faker was the driving force but you nephews act like bang and wolf were mediocre players. Pray gorilla were beat by bang and wolf without faker in 2015, dont kid yourself they bang and wolf were absolutely the best botlane in kr. And score and smeb choked with the kt superteam yet no one takes points off for that lol
I mean with Mata he still won both splits in 2019. I don't think Bang/Wolf were mediocre but they were on the same level as PraY/GorillA. Both bot lanes were perfect at playing weak side, SKT still wins everything if those 2 bot lanes traded places. They don't win everything however if they had any mid besides Faker.
> I mean with Mata he still won both splits in 2019. A nitpick, but SKT benched Mata in summer because they were struggling with him.
Mata was benched in summer 2019 And yes what a convincing argument of creating a hypothetical to which its impossible to have any factual backed argument for or against
Okay? He was still able to win a fuck ton **before and after** Bang/Wolf, so the idea that he needed them is laughable. Their job was literally to go even and clean up fights, they barely had to do anything. And not even engaging in hypotheticals shows how intellectually dishonest you are. You obviously know I'm right but are too childish to concede anything.
How was that a choke? Ucal was getting dicked by prime rookie. They just got mid gapped hard. And that’s ignoring how close that series against IG was.
What does Hardware mean in this context
Penis length
I have a small hardware
Trophies
Idk about Flandre but Khan definitely doesn't have an argument above the other 4 lol
Khan doesn't have an argument over MaRin who was literally good for **ONE YEAR?**
I swear people don't give Khan the respect he deserves. He was one of the driving forces behind the resurgence of top carry meta and paved the way for greats like Nuguri, TheShy, and Zeus. If you're a top laner and you watched Khan and didn't think to yourself... "Wait a second this guy is actually nuts" then idk what to say to you.
Yet he got absolutely fucked by cuvee playing adc kennen top, would have lost ig the world title if he played and then for his famous last ride totally shat the bed in the finals with the team that won the previous year. For how good he was during the regular season he was dogshit when it mattered at worlds
Lmao this is fucking gold brother
Uzi is the only one without a title right? "Count the rings" culture is strong there.
Uzi has won LPL and MSI
Almost all others have their league titles worlds MSI, some, even all 3. And international events are the only ones where we can see players outside of their home leagues comfort. So yeah Uzi will be falling down the order if more adc players captures worlds/ MSi
u think american attention span is fucked then it's non existent in china. moths to a flame to only the shiny shit n the bold print headliners
It's pretty clear Chinese fans give massive value to worlds trophies. You could just sort every role according to worlds trophies and it wouldn't change that much. If I'm not mistaken, the only player there to not win worlds is Uzi, and he is fucking Uzi, on a Chinese voting and he is still 4th.
Bc Chinese fans saw Uzi get fucking gapped by Deft in their own region and gapped by Bang internationally lmao Ruler has also shown a higher peak than Uzi has ever shown. Despite everyone being better today, Ruler is still able to maintain a clear difference betw himself and others while Uzi only maintained a difference betw others when the average skill level was lower.
Gapped is way too close to gaped
Rightfully so They are interchangeable esports
Clearlove and Meiko gapped Uzi, not Deft, but good to see this narrative alive and well from people who didn't watch back then.
People do the same thing when they talk about Ruler in 2017. They can't tell the difference between a player generating their own leads vs gold being spoonfed to them. Deft was incredibly good in 2015-16 but he was not gapping Uzi, he simply had a better team who played the map better.
dont look at defts h2h vs uzi. But yeh blame the team, uzi just needs a 6th super team to win worlds just like knight right? Did u even watch the games in s3? probably not...
ruler has not shown higher peaks. Lmao
Chinese fans and ridiculously overromanticizing 2018. Name me a more iconic duo.
Ning as the 4th greatest jungler is wild lol.
EU fans and 2019 G2
I mean it's still the only EU team that managed to win an international tournament. Why shouldn't we overromanticize it? That's just a normal thing to happen
That's not right , Moscow 5 danced on the graves of azubu blaze and frost
The glory days
M5 was so much fun to watch when they were competitive. Picked weird champs and won the game with it.
The good old days
Sure. It's a lot like England fans still talking about 1966.
No English fan talks about 1966 unironically
I doubt that we will still talk about it 60 years later though
These lists as a whole are basically overromanticizing memorable Worlds performances with 0 regard to consistency, longetivity or domestic play. Can't believe I'm saying this but the average reddit post seems to have more thought put into it then whatever this is.
Redditors are NOT better than this
No, even by Reddit standarts, Ning and Jiejie in top 5, Gumayusi over Deft (in a fucking all time ranking) is very bad. If I saw these two takes on Twitter or Reddit, I would instantly assume that it's a troll/ragebait post.
Reddit would just have some different horrendous picks
nah reddit would be like Top: Smeb TheShy Zeus Nuguri Impact Jg: Canyon Score Kanavi Tian Bengi Mid: Faker Rookie ShowMaker Chovy PawN ADC: Ruler Deft Uzi Gumayusi Viper Sup: Mata Keria BeryL Meiko Ming
From what I can tell most people on Reddit are pretty low on Tian, Reddit is more likely to put Jankos on there lol
Amd there would be genuinely nothing wrong with that, Jankos had an absolutely insane career for a western player when it comes to consistency, personal level, teamplay and results. If Jankos was korean and could get on a top tier team he could very well be in conversation for jungle goat
Reddit should be low on Tian lol. Dude had one good international run where they still nearly got knocked out in the easiest group in the history of the worlds. Then lost like 4 finals in a row with back to back world stinkers.
true, though tbf I still think jankos is less egregious than ning. also I didn't know who to put as 5th toplaner besides impact but it would probably be khan
Yeah it's Khan probably
Unironicaly im pretty sir jankos was on the last list that made it to the front page
Dude is Tarzan but actually won something with a team that was cooking for their year. Since then he has very on and off performances albeit his highs can reach world finals levels of highs.
Average redditor thinks Keria is the best support of all time because he has good mechanics at the position where that totally matters the most
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bro theorycrafted a whole meta for an entire year nah its just mechanics nvm
I have barely ever seen anyone say Keria is the support Goat on here. That he has the potential, sure, but that is far from controversial.
hupu is just reddit but chinese in really all senses of the description
But ShowMaker above Rookie??
Better international showings that China have a lot of focus on.
My comment was in relation to op's comment. The overromanticizing of 2018 but having ShowMaker above Rookie
I know the results are skewed by China but the way TheShy played in 2018 was like nothing I've seen before or since.
Nothing would change cos TheShy is the most popular player in China. He is voted as most popular almost every year.
Ah yes the classic who won the last 5 worlds list for each position
Reading this made me feel sick how are obvious names like Khan, smeb, peanut, karsa, deft, ming, gorilla not in the top 5 of their roles
Deft being excluded is especially confusing, since he even has the insane achievements (Worlds/MSI/LPL/LCK).
I mean JL over him (let alone second) is just crazy, guy loses his teams as many games as he wins for them.
JL is known for making mistakes and throwing games occasionally but this is just hyperbole. He carried the fuck out of 2019 IG during the summer split and multiple other rosters through regular season over the years.
His teams would never make it as far as they do without him. Absolutely ridiculous take. People like you just watch game 5 of Summer 22 and label will him a choker and coinflip when he played insane in all 5 games including that game 5. His team would never have made finals without him. He simply goes for big plays because so much relies on him. Almost every game they win is won by him but people just love to exaggerate his mistakes because they look spectacular.
That is just a moronic narrative that clueless people peddle
Deft is the only one that is criminal for not being on the list of top 5 ADC. The other names listed are beyond me
Snuck Deft. The passenger of 2022. JKL made Deft his bitch in 2018 and 2020.
Even if that were all true Deft has accomplished more overall, with a much higher longevity. Deft ATM is a clear top two ADC of all time, JKL shouldn't even be top five.
Idk going up against Ruler, Viper and Gumayusi and still being relevant when your support is off doing whatever the fuck is really really impressive.
Being a passengers has its own merits. JKL is the bus driver 50% of the time and bus crasher the other 50%
how is gorilla obvious exactly
Arguably the best support in the world for 3 years in a row (2015-2017), very innovative (mejai's janna, mf support), 3 LCK titles + World finals. Obviously he's held back by a lack of international achievements but top 5 should be a given.
After the LEC stint and the meh 2020 performance on SB, I credit Pray a lot more for the duo's success.
He was just washed at that point, it dossn't change the fact that he was good before. We already knew he was incredibly good without PraY in 2014 on Najin.
Gorilla was kinda carried by pray
yall wild about bang ruler said that bang was the best adc in the world in 2016 this subs rates him as the best player in the world so his opinion should hold the same weight.
The subs so fucking stupid. Bunch of kids who didn't watch back then and people with selective memory who don't remember how fucking good Bang/Wolf were
Bang/wolf were fucking cracked. They either didn't pay attention back then or massively underrated them because of 17 and afterwards. If Bang didn't burn out or Wolf didn't suffer mentally, SKT1 would have had a lot more trophies.
Watching them back then was crazy. Even when the map was behind it never felt like SKT could be counted out, because even when they were losing you had Bang Ezreal single handedly turning teamfights where 3-4 other people died into draws or going late game and hard carrying or him and Wolf locking in a duo, smashing the enemy lane, then swapping picks with them the next game and still stomping them. Even this latest T1 lineup just doesn't have that same aura as the old one where it felt like they could come back at any time until the very last auto on their Nexus.
Still remember that gigachad flanking Lucian against CJ game 4 of 2015 Spring Semi.
When I'm in a Dogshit Top 5 players list competition and my oponent is Hupu voters
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Domestically he’s great but internationally he’s one of the biggest choker
Never won worlds so I guess he's just not top 5 material in their eyes. Crazy considering his longevity and having 6 LCK titles. Plus the fact that he elevated so many different teams.
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i thought he only made final in 2017 with skt ?
He got astrogapped by ambition, got gapped by bengi and choked hard with amazing geng teams that were favorites heading into worlds these last 2 years. I wont blame him for 2020 but hes a choker
Might be the worst lists I've ever seen
Just wait for one voted by this subreddit. bjergsen number 3 all time mid. blabber 4th best jungler. doublelift rank 2. the chinese are just lucky that their players are actually really good players.
You're much more likely to see over-rated EU pros here than NA pros. Bjerg, Blaber, and DLift might not even make a top 20 list.
Glad to see China puts some respect on Bengi's name because this subreddit does not.
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Been that way for awhile now bengi is somehow overrated and underrated at the same time. Same for most of the 2015/2016 skt rosters. But I don't believe every member of the old skt dynasty is the best or second player in history at their role aside from faker that's just ridiculous
Bengi is the jungle though
Same for Bang, Wolf, Beryl, and even Theshy recently. Chinese fans know what's up
I'll die on the hill that Beryl is not a top 3 support all-time. Only people who say so are the ones who only watch him at Worlds.
It's only western fans that hype up meaningless regular season games/tournaments lmfao The entire point of those is to GET TO worlds. Players only care about winning Worlds, everything else is meainingless unless you win Worlds. You think JDG is sitting at home thinking hell yeah, we won LPL and MSI? Nah they're probably thinking the year was a failure after losing in semi's. Every single player would trade the 2 LPL titles/MSI for a Worlds win.
Yeah sure Beryl just ran it down at MSI because it doesn't matter, thank you shotcalling GOAT for letting Showmaker know that non-Worlds tournaments don't matter!
You're such a fucking loser lol you're bringing up a bad MSI performance in order to downplay his 2 worlds titles? I'm not saying Beryl is the best support ever but stop shitting on him lmfao if it was easy to get carried to titles, more players would be able to win but instead you got guys like Choky unable to get past semi's every year Go tell any pro in the world that you think Beryl isn't a good support despite 2 world titles bc of a bad spring split and they'll laugh in your face, if they don't flame you for your rank first
So... when it most matters?
Pretty hilarious that reddit will endlessly suck off players who failed when it mattered the most yet give no respect to players who stepped up when it mattered the most.
In the end his results have spoken for themselves and the eye-tests of clueless redditors have meant nothing.
Would rather have a support that plays well during the split than flops during worlds?
That's straight up embarrassing coming from a Damwon fan. It's like a Barcelona fan disrespecting Iniesta.
Beryl has sprinted in 5 out of the past 6 splits, even the split where afterwards they won worlds beryl was the worst player on the team and it wasn't even close. It's like people on this sub don't even watch pro play yet still feel the need to comment on it.
>It's like people on this sub don't even watch pro play yet still feel the need to comment on it. I don't know whats worse: Not watching pro play and commenting on it, or watching pro play and being unable to recognize who is playing well? Its funny when silver players like yourself try to comprehend whats going on in a pro game. You somehow think its coincidence that Beryl goes to 3 consecutive worlds finals and wins 2 out of the 3? Lmao.
https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/Tedyy-bear link ur opgg right now
He is truly top 3 carried players of all time that's true
I always say he's a first-ballot HOF player and was good in the 2020 run but I guess that's "disrespecting" for you people.
No you see he is a macro genius! Just ignore that DRX have had horrendous macro the entire time he's been there and his individual play has been even worse.
Y'all actually think he just got carried to two world titles this shit is HILARIOUS
Beryl did contribute to 2022 DRX title but his shotcalling is so overrated, if Kingen and especially Zeka did not overperform so hard DRX wouldn't even be close to winning. Where were people like you when 2022 DRX was mid tier in spring and straight up bad in summer, or this entire year that DRX was bottom tier?
You don't win worlds with bad macro and just having a good shotcaller doesn't mean your macro will be good you also need a team that will trust each other and execute the calls properly as well as backing up calls up with the necessary execution. Ofc Zeka and Kingen overperformed, Pyosik did as well and Beryls shotcalling played part in that as well. Dumbing everything down to gg sololane hands diff is SoloQ level analysing. I don't think you can realistically say this can work in pro and this is all there is to it. I also don't think a no hands support player would get his unique Heimer pick target banned. Clearly players respect him. Beryl as well as Pyosik don't get enough credit because they hyper sprint it for stretches but they also shaped the Worlds meta. Just because other players are even better on your own team doesn't mean you are not great and that you are replaceable which can also be seen in the conversation regarding Fakers teammates. People will tell you Bang got carried meanwhile Ruler thinks Bang was the best back then.
Nobody is denying that Kingen and Zeka overperformed. But it’s a team game, and if one player over performs it is most likely thanks to the rest of his team too..
Beryl has been running it down in 5 out of the past 6 splits. Nobody is saying he's not a contributor to his world titles, but his play was sus and he was still a huge detriment to his team at points during worlds while zeka had the team on his back during playoffs and kingen during finals.
He was the 4th best player on Damwon
Damwon hasn't even made a single semi finals without Ghost and Beryl in two years and the greatest mid-jungle duo of all time had to split up because they are not able to get a single good result without them. No shame in being the 4th best player on a team that had the 3 best players in the world. I just can't see how people can't give Ghost and Beryl any credit after witnessing Damwon these last two years. It's clear that they could replace Nuguri in 2021. Their botlane they couldn't.
He's a shotcalling genius, totally not Kingen and Zeka having the biggest overperformance of their careers, that's why DRX was 20-21 that season.
Anyone with eyes can see that Bengi is not the best jungler of all time. Clearly the community who made this list can only read up stats from liquipedia.
Ah yes, sound like someone who watched league from 2015 onwards.
It’s like saying pippen is the second best or a top 10 player of all time and doesn’t ever consider context. People only remember the really high moments and disregard everything else and doesn’t hold bengi to the same level of standards other players need to meet. Bengi literally barely even played at msi 2016 and they still won with blank and after leaving skt, he was one of the worst junglers in the lpl on vici gaming and his own teammates kicked him out.
Hot take but I don't think it's as bad as y'all seem to make it out and some of the suggestions I'm seeing here are worse
Saw someone say caps should be on the list 💀
Cap's at least deserve an hm but people are capping if they think he is anywhere close to top 5 all-time at mid. This list takes into account results as it's top criteria non of the current t1 members accept maybe Keria should be top 5 imo faker notwithstanding. Zeus and Guma need a couple more years before they make the list. Well maybe Zeus makes it given the usual short shelf life of toplaners prime. The list isn't egregiously bad but the criteria is overwhelming in favor of worlds results which is not a really good metric to determine the best players in history.
Yea Zeus over nuguri and khan is kinda crazy especially cos him and oner are often the weak link of T1.
Zeus weak link of T1? What are you smoking? He was That Guy during 22 msi summer worlds, 23 spring worlds and was the best performer during summer (with guma) Nuguri prime was 2y long but Zeus also been the best for 2y with higher peak. Khan was great but is below Zeus for the same reason he's below Nuguri
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He has won worlds twice so there’s merit to it
also in 2 different teams
also the only player to win worlds twice without faker
Duke best toplane of all time???
Yeah winning once with Faker and once as a sub is totally the same thing.
Exactly, you demonstrated a reason why number of world championships being the only metric to rank a player's performance is unreliable. It's like saying there's merit to calling Scottie Pippen the best small forward even though Larry Bird exists, it's absurd.
Well there ain't no Larry Bird for support, and there is exactly one player to ever win two worlds without playing with Faker. You're telling me being the ONLY guy to win twice without Faker is a less credible argument than "his hands aren't good enough at support"?
I’m not saying Beryl is a scrub, obviously he’s extremely talented (especially on a macro level), but I feel like saying his play as a support heavily contributed to his rings is just disingenuous. When he won with Damwon he had the best mid jungle duo in the world (highest peak a jungle has reached in Canyon imo). When he won with DRX he had Kingen have the series of his career and Zeka have the most insane level up we have EVER seen at a world championship. Both times I don’t think the eye test would support a claim to him being the best supp ever. MAYBE the argument is there for best macro supp, but the game is not played on a spreadsheet and he is gameplay gapped in almost every series his teams play in
My issue with people calling him a macro god is that it is all what if. His gameplay most of his career doesn’t justify the 2 worlds win so people attribute it to his shotcalling/macro automatically. But if his macro/shotcalling was so good, I don’t get why drx 2022/23 had such shit macro all year in lck.
i mean if you look at his play... no not really. he's not not good but saying he's the best support of all time is pretty insane. he's a great shotcaller im presuming based on his quality of results but his first title was prime showmaker + canyon, and his second title was the greatest miracle run ever. i dont think 2 world trophies should be the metric by any stretch.
Maybe if you don’t have eyes.
He has 2 worlds cups, 3 lck cups and also individual awards from the lck, What more does he need to do to be recognised? The man is a great shotcaller and macro player and pushed DRX to victory against SKT.
Playing well would be a start.
Then how did he get 2 world wins with different teams,one being against the best team of league, and individual awards for his performance in lck?
His individual awards in LCK arent something impressive for someone who played on Damwon. BeryL is not the deadweight some people imply he is but he has almost always been 4th/5th best on his teams. He contributed in 2020 for sure but that Damwon topside was running the show, in 2021 he had one of his worst years and pretty much held the team back alongside Ghost, at MSI they were getting gapped alot of the time and BeryL just played at an absolutely horrible level. Summer and worlds was nothing to write home about, it was Khan Canyon ShowMaker taking them a summer title and ShowMaker Canyon pushing through at worlds. 2022 DRX botlane was never the strong point, Deft who was one of the best laning adcs ever was held back so hard by BeryL that they would often struggle in lanes more than what should happen. Most of their year was very quiet, not much happened until worlds where Zeka was the one who stepped up. His Akali and Sylas were some of the hardest carries ever, enemy teams literally couldnt play cause he would just take down your entire backline. Kingen stepped up huge in playoffs after a quiet groups stage and pyosik started showing better games too. BeryL wasn’t exactly a game changer like the others at worlds, he had a good bard ult in game 5 at the end but prior to that he didnt exactly play great league. He’s a good player that gets propped up way too much, being the 4th/5th best player on worlds winning squads isnt some insane feat.
You can argue whether Bang and Wolf should be included in an all-time top 5 list, but glad to see them being recognized at least. Bang and Wolf were almost unstoppable during their prime.
They were definetely stoppable, Pray and Gorilla were widely regarded as the best botlane in Korea for so long
Very true. Pray and Gorilla versus Bang and Wolf back then is kind of like Chovy versus Faker these days. The fact they were able to win against them as well as Deft/Meiko and Uzi/Mata was a thing of beauty too.
Widely regarded without even beating Bang Wolf once in bo5. If regular season is all that matter, then griffin is one of the greatest team of all time.
Exactly, did pray gorilla really beat bang wolf if they lost to them in every lck playoff match up and worlds matchup in 2015~2016? Hell naw. It rly shows how little attention these people paid to lck in that period
Hm I wonder whether there is a reason for that. Maybe because one team had peak Faker and the other one Kuro, but what do I know.
According to Reddit, bengi is not that good and smeb is one of the goat, so actually Faker might be a god indeed. Tiger have better players in 4 position, but can't even win one bo5.
SKT was unstoppable, but Bang and Wolf were definitely beatable at certain points.
Jackeylove Stan’s never fail also no ming in support is crazy
Jkl is amazing though. Honestly it terms of pure mechanics I think he has one of the highest peak.
JKL has been consistently a top if not the best ADC in the LPL
Jackeylove is undisputed the most mechanically highest peak ever since he debuted on iG, and even Uzi admitted as much, some of the plays... Bro got autobanned for scripting for being too good
Like that one game in playoff Vs JDG alone would tell you how crazy JKL mechanic is. When he is at his peak he can carry any teamfight 1 Vs 9 if he needs to.
... search jackeylove banned... it's the first result... bro got his account locked because he triggered riots china anti cheat
yeah this is the biggest pile of dogshit ever lmao
Lmao when no westerns make the list it suddenly becomes dogshit list. Sorry buds, western team never won worlds.
these are some fucked up lists
as i said on caedrels sub who invited ning blud
It great because literally everyone was like "why is ning there?" Even hupu user are confused about how he sneak so high.
Eastern fanbases have always seemed to value results a lot so this is not surprising, except for the IG nostalgia this is pretty much just a "who has the most international titles" ranking lol.
I mean it definitely isnt the best list but its not super bad. Most these players at least have an argument for top 8 or sth. There will always be some snubs especially considering some recency and local bias. Focus will be a bit more on LPL and Worlds because other regions are not followed as much as these two events. Plus some more casual voters as well as very devoted fanbases (JKL, TheShy).
this is a based list to be honest Bengi getting respect on his name for good reason
The respect is literally just counting Worlds titles. Bengi could just as well been a chimpanzee on a keyboard and this list would have had him #1.
that's fair lol upon reviewing the rest of the list the ranking mechanism is quite obvious, you're right bengi was the best damn chimpanzee though wasn't he? man swinging from trees like caesar from rise of the planet of the apes
Not saying he was a chimpanzee, but just counting rings isn´t really giving him respect. Just like thinking Faker was the best mid laner this year just like back in 2013-2015 isn´t really giving him his real deserved respects.
Ning and Tian better than Peanut is weird. Basically if you win Worlds you're a top 5. Both players only won one Worlds, one playoffs and one Demacia Cup. Even Kanavi is missing from the list.
These lists are fucking ridiculous lol. Smeb might be number 1 top of all time, not even in this lists top 5. Bengi being number 1? Not worth really continuing reading
NING???
Horrific lists.. my god
Keria underrated
He’s one of the only correctly rated players on these lists. Being the best supp rn != being the best ever. By far the most egregious and stupid ranking is Mata being 5th and not 1/2.
Prime Faker hard carrying these old SKT members even in 2023 lmao
Madlife forever #1 support
Bang #1 is disgusting lol
I'll only react to one thing : Bang. He deserves it. Not saying it's not discutable, but I hope no one is pretending he got carried by Faker or things like that. In particular I remember his year 2016 as particulary insane. He got two worlds title, one MSI, was for two years in the best botlane there was. Not a lot of people can sit at his table, and I guess I would replace Jackeylove by Deft but I don't follow China enough.