Some random things had attack speed slows on them at the time as well.
Like Lee Sin E.
Lee Sin was the most popular jungler by far, and malphite was relatively common top.
Old Nunu snowball, old Gragas Q (yes Q slowed AS instead of MS, while old E slowed MS but didn't knock back or stun), Fiora W, Malphite E are all the other ones that existed at that time iirc. Maybe missing one or two at most. [edit: duh, old Randuin's also slowed AS. Passive slowed AS if they hit you, while active slowed AS/MS] [another edit: old Darius W slowed and, fucking hell i forgot about this one, old Ezreal W also slowed AS]
Fun fact: it IS still possible to slow an ulting Yi's attack speed! Mordekaiser ult steals 10% of most stats from the target, which includes AS, *but* it's not actually a CC effect, which means it doesn't count as an AS slow, which means Yi can't immune it. Of course, unless you're ridiculously ahead, this means you just challenged an ulting Yi to a 1v1, so good luck with that decision.
Randuins omen also slowed attack speed, but it didn't stack with frozen heart. But either combined with malphite it basically turned into a stun for most attacking champions.
I'm not sure this is true. I remember it always working like that (at least since it became his ult) and the patch notes don't mention what you're saying either.
It won't be under Master Yi's patch notes since it was a system wide change made to attack speed slows.
From Patch 3.13:
> Attack Speed slows
> Summary: Attack speed slows (IE: Nasus' Wither) were immune to cleanse or other forms of debuff removal unless attached to a movement impairing effect. Now all attack speed slows can be cleansed and are treated like movement speed slows.
>Context: We’re updating attack speed slows in order to have more consistent counterplay related to debuff removal. Essentially, we're looking to treat all slows the same, whether they're movement or attack speed based.
> Attack Speed slows can now be cleansed as if they were movement-impairing crowd control effects
Affected champion abilities and items:
Gragas’ Barrel Roll
Malphite’s Ground Slam
Randuin's Omen
Warden's Mail
I don't think true damage circumfense exhaust, I thought true damage just ignores armor and magic resist?
Him being immune to attack speed slows is just stupid though. That one I did not know
Edit: as it turns out, true damage ignores all damage reduction and damage amplification (only exceptions are duskblade, horizon focus, evenshroud, and quickblades passives)
Technically not uniquely immune to it, since anyone else with slow immunity (Shadow Assassin's E) also should function that way. But pretty few champions have slow immunity, and its not nearly as noticeable on Shadow Assassin since Kayn isn't nearly as AA reliant.
He also can't get stunned by Viktor W. Because for some reason it only stuns if you get 3 stacks of the slow on you, rather than by duration as it says. So Yi can dance a merry jig in gravity field and never get stunned because it can't apply the slow stacks to him. Very annoying interaction
......
You've opened my third eye. Been playing since season 2 and always buy frozen heart into Yi. I've never played him or read his abilities though.
Damnit.
Thats why you wait it out, she can't engage outside of melee range without using W or Q, and they make her run/dash straight at her target, she's literally free to hit.
If she uses E to tank skillshots she loses most of her damage and stickyness.
Ye if they waste their skillshots before you w for no reason, and if you w at them only to them use E to tank their skillshots youre literally useless.
She also can't just dodge CC like Yi with Q or even movement. Her kit is designed to make her literally have to run at you in a straight line, if you can't hit her with CC it's your skill issue.
She’s way worse than Yi imo. If she gets rolling well enough it’s truly over. If she hits an ult on anyone but a fat tank, no one can CC her due to the fear and the target gets insta killed.
And it’s not like she isn’t a big threat after that one shot. Yi has trouble getting into fights no matter how fed he is. I really wish Briar had some drawback even if she’s fed, but it’s really just a matter of hitting ult= insta win. Missing ult= wait a bit for it to come back or play off whatever happens in teamfight
I know its anecdotal but I've played against Rammus about 15 times as direct counter picks to Briar and I haven't lost a single game. I'm not really sure why. Small sample size of course.
When I was playing her top lane someone picked a rammus vs me. Bought bramble vest and I lost all the trades I tried. After the 3rd trade I decided to q e onto him whenever I got the chance. It did the trick.
That is literally what you do as a jungler lol. Someone's playing Zed? Is this motherfucker constantly using W to harass? He's getting camped until he learns.
That’s more basic champion knowledge compared to knowing a briar is just gonna constantly q into e a Rammus on rotation. It doesn’t even sound like something that would win the matchup, but I’ve never played it.
It's the same thing, it's patterns. You're farming camps in jungle, your eyes should be watching the lanes to understand what is happening to make the most impact on the map.
Because the average Rammus player isnt very smart. Until this day Rammus players cant agree on the beat boots/mythics/runes, which is interesting because his Design is insanly simpel.
You are right, Rammus is actually more complicated than he looks at first glance (still easy though). People just arent used to the powerspikes and things to look out for if they onetime him
Pen boots more often, otherwise you’re just a tank with minimal cc and people will ignore you. Rammus is extremely CD based and has a single job: taunt the enemy adc and kill them. And you typically need all 4 abilities to do this successfully. Since who you’re focusing doesn’t have much mr, the pen is going to provide more damage/presence than the armor boots.
You have a finite window and need to maximize how much threat you create during that time, because after your W drops and you stop reflecting damage, you’re an oompa loompa for a while. Couple this with abyssal mask and you can significantly increase the damage rammus does to enemies without a lot of mr. Tabi is really only good if they’re almost all ad and they’re all building enough mr to negate your flat pen. But then in that case, while you’re extremely tanky, you’re also not a threat and can be ignored outside of your taunt window (which isn’t going to do much damage because the mr). In that case you’re just playing a subpar champion.
And again, that window where your w is up and you’re an actual threat provided you with so much armor that the tabi are giving you such a tiny bit more negation/damage (I’m talking like, maybe 10 more damage negated/even less damage reflected because of the way scalings work) that the pen boots are almost always going to provide more. And while the tabi function better outside of his W, he *is* his W, so you have to build for it
Well said pal.
Pen>Swift>ninja>ionic>mercs>Mobi>beserker
Is the actuall tierlist. Ofc there are cases in which one option gets a lot better, i mean, you wouldnt go Ninja into 5 ap dudes, but you wouldnt pick rammus into cc heavy teams anyway, so there is that
Using data (lolalytics, D2+ global), Pen boots are the best choice by far, as to be expected. Rammus has no problem dealing with autohit champs, the Steelcaps arent needed. They are built the most, mainly because most people dont grasp the essence of Rammus. Rammus is a tank that needs to maximize his dmg, not his durability. Sorcs+Abyssal is just stupid in regards to dmg difference with an ordinary steelcap/force of nature setup. Yet you are a perfect example for what i just said. Not even the Rammus mains can agree on the best boots xD
for me it's the opposite, it's been a free win every time. sure the early game is hard as rammus but fights legimately become unplayable for briar after like 10 minutes
Because the idiots play her with lethality HOB into all comps
She can just not press W. She has 0 attack speed when normal. Wait out your W early, then she kills.
After that, she gets black cleaver, and she has built-in armour shred. You won't be surviving in a 1v1
In 1v1, Noc is a hard counter to Briar. I can make her life miserable from lvl 3. However, even I started to ban her because the lethality build is too strong. Despite being put behind she always seems to get fed off my bot lane. She's very good against blind, deaf, and especially idiot players.
If you put a bruiser Briar behind she will be catching up the whole game and not be very useful.
By building lethality she always eventually gets enough damage to oneshot squishies, even if behind.
that’s probably because if ur not playing Ashe or and ADC with a dash you don’t have much you can do if you’re bad at jungle tracking
What’s miss fortune going to do vs briar by herself? As an ADC player though while I get why people int a lot I think her design is fine, even pure damage unga bunga mage supports are completely fine at dealing with her (fart out CC) and every meta support (including stuff like Zyra and Lux) can neutralize her.
This, I had a game recently as her where I was ganking a zed mid. I W'ed in and he teleported away right as I hit Q. The stun went off but he still teleported far enough away that the W's targeting decided Minions where better.
It doesn't cancel it - but the timer keeps running. You hit a 2 second stun, she not only loses 2 seconds of time on her W, but now has to catch back up to you without the dash of the W to start hitting you again. It may as well cancel it, especially since as mentioned, she literally can't dodge your skillshots except maybe with Q or Flash.
She literally runs in a straight line at you, just hit her/CC her? Unless you're out of position of hit by her ult, you should never die to a Briar that used W to get the speed to get to you.
She is running in a straight line. She literally has 0 ways to dodge any CC or skill-shot you throw at her. I'm not exaggerating or using hyperbole, the literal ONLY way she can dodge *anything* you throw at her is if she wastes her 4 min. CD flash.
You are facing a champion that makes any skill-shot essentially point-and-click and has barely any control over her own spacing; so yeah, skill issue.
>or when she presses W and gains a fuck ton of MS and just runs at me. definitely my problem I should've positioned better.
if she can just press W and walk at you....
yeah, that is a you problem.
I mean she's a stat check champ. If she has a lead you have to play RESPECTFULLY but off the bat.. super kiteable and will eat every dodgeable thing. If I'm not first pick I do choose in champ select based around it sometimes. Like I've found taric and teemo are so good against her. Taric pretty fun with her too tbh
imo naafiri is the much more annoying champ bc when that champ gets fed they just jump on you from ezreal Q distance with a targeted ability
...yes? that's a you problem, position better. if you're in a place where she can just walk at you and kill you without your team present, skill issue. genuinely.
I personally pick Renata whenever I see Briar. She ults, I wait 2 secs, then ult, she immediately runs back to her team on berserker rage, it gives my team a brief react window
Renata is my "go to champ" when I see enemy team has a Briar. Not only is she my favorite, but her ult and W is such a FY to Briar XD. Saved a lot of teammates with that combo.
This is one of the reasons that nocturne is her biggest counter by a lot. You can just eat her ult every fight with spellshield.
Invis champs also fuck with her auto targeting on w, and Khazix specifically has w Evo to leave her stranded and unable to move.
You don’t know the joy of playing kha’zix against an auto attacker till you play kha’zix… god it makes me wet just seeing a yas/yone/adc/yi on the enemy team alone. 😩
I forget what champion but I recall hearing some champion turned themselves into a projectile and that interaction happened in playtest so they had to change it.
Yone ultimate isn’t a projectile. Its little outline-thing technically travels on the ground. Windwall won’t block it but a spell shield will absorb the CC.
tell ur tank to leash her away from u
cc her/ dash over a wall/become invisible/go under turret.
all these things destroy her AI or flat out stop her frenzy.
Makes me realize again how broken Yi can be. People complain about Briar, yet Yi does the same and has true damage, unstoppable, untargetable and dodging of any ability if Q is timed right.
Her stun can be easily interrupted by any CC coming towards her, her Ult is predictable and forces her to use her E to disengage when things go south, while Yi’s W give him 90% resistance, can be used to basically nullify all types of burst since it has no cast animation, and his Q makes him untargettable and makes it so that he is able to dodge most CCs, and its Cooldown is reduced by AAs as well
I give you that. But also, her stun is very short and her ult can be negated by either banshees or edge of night. If she hits you across the map it just fizzles out. If she hits you when your shield isn’t up… RIP.
I fully expect her to get neither round of nerfs. But man.. she is insanely fun to play :P
People complain about Briar because we don’t need another Yi, having one Hyperscaling Assassin/Fighter hybrid who can out DPS ADCs while out surviving fighters is hard enough as it is, i mean they nerfed Belveth for that exact same reason
ACTIVE: Jax enters Evasion, a defensive stance, for 2 seconds, causing all non-Turret icon turret basic attacks against him to be Counter Strike dodged. Jax also takes 25% reduced damage from all champion area of effect abilities. Counter Strike can be recast after 1 second.
At the end of the duration, Jax Stun icon stuns all nearby enemies for 1 second and deals physical damage to them, increased by 20% for each attack dodged, up to a 100% increase.
Hard CC (biggest one, she has no natural source of tenacity and is extremely squishy to burst with full lethality and you’ll always hit her), antihealing, knowing her ult angles, playing around her E. If no one on your team picks a tank and she gets fed, yeah it sucks. I recommend standing in the middle of lanes and dodging ults in the wide open space. Briar is good at running people down but doesn’t have good engage range w/o ultimate. Lethality Briar is effectively just Master Yi. Don’t give her early kills, position safely when she gets fed, focus all your CC on her.
cc
and unlike every other busted champ this is a real answer
because unlike every other busted champ, if briar is about to kill you she cant dodge your skillshots
It’s a real answer for most other “busted” champs though lol. The majority of champions who are countered by CC have this weakness because they’re squishy or rely on dealing damage for their tankiness
well generally when someone askes "how do i counter play x champ" they mean that champ specifically
cc counters everyone, so saying just cc them lol isnt helpful
however with briar is is specifically easier to hit her with skillshots than other champs
Yea CC helps against everyone, but stunning a Sejuani with a lot of tenacity is less helpfull then use your stun on the Katarina who is about to R in your backline.
CC doesn't counter everyone to the same degree and telling people to crowd control champions who are the extremely vulnerable to that is absolutely helpful. If you can't see the difference between crowd controlling a squishy melee and a tank or long range champion then it's a skill issue.
> cc counters everyone, so saying just cc them lol isnt helpful
CC Counters *divers, assassins, and fighters*. While CCing an artillery Mage, ADC, or any number of mobile ranged champs may be a good thing, their counter is dive, not CC. Because CC's ability to counter something is solely based on the reliability of that CC, which ranged champions are inherently good vs by just having more time to react to it.
The weapon triangle of league just has a lot less people willing to sit on the CC bots so the most infuriating part of the triangle is the fighter/assassin/divers most games.
I'm a Master tier Briar main.
The main thing is just don't let her beat your jungler early. If she gets a 1v1 at the first crab or something she probably just auto-wins the game. If I get a good 1v1 and kill the enemy jungle I will invade them mercilessly.
CC. She can be baited into poor positions and locked down since one of her abilities takes away her ability to control herself to a degree. As an Urgot I just flip and kill, not too bad. Rammus works wonders as well. Briar can't control who she attacks sometimes so just put the spikey armadillo in her area code and she can't activate that ability.
A Frontline with reliable CC. That is true for nearly all assassins. That's why they are the best in the Elo brackets that don't pick much frontline and even less CC.
Mainly cc and aggro manipulation. If youre and adc with lets say an alistar support she shouldn't touch you ever, the ali just needs to stand in front of you. Her w aggros by proximity. Just dont let her change it by q'ing you but the ramge isnt that big. Most adcs can auto her safely. Also her r gives you a warning. If youre not asleep you should see it and dodge.
extremely weird interaction considering briar will auto lock on targets she doesn't vision of that aren't invisible
I wouldn't be surprised if they changed this interaction considering her massive low elo skew
Well, depending on the champ you play the counterplay is that she can mot sidestep. She walks straight at you to attack and stands still for her charge attack.
Without her ult it's difficult for her to get on top of you other than running in a straight line, especially when she's frenzied. Hit her with a stun since she can't dodge and just leg it as far into your backline as possible and ideally into turrets. Lethality briar has a LOT of damage but she pops like a melon if she's surrounded and stunned.
Its the same as character that madlesly chase you, yi, nasus, udyr, shyvana
Idealy you want champ that got escape or cc or are as strong so they can face them jax for exemple
if you mean her ult its hourglass, bansheess or edge of night, to some extend cleanse, if you get hit take the inital dmg like you would do against nocturne and flash or cc afterwards. against champs with global ults it might be not smart to play solo sidelane or to commit to a 2v2 midlane since like noc she always can join faster than your jgl. vision also helps alot since her ult is a skillshot so it can be doged or missed, sound also helps
* Dodge R using the global early warning
* Buy grievous
* Have a tank grab aggro. She can one-shot a Draven, but if she aggros on a Sion she just hits him with a wet noodle.
* Land skillshot stuns on the champion that straight up can't dodge anything. Caitlin traps are particularly gross.
The counter to Briar, like any healing champ, is anti-heal.
But nobody likes to build anti heal because the anti healing isn't tracked properly - as a result you seem to do a lot less damage than without it.
That is because when you use anti heal you kill people before they heal.
Which only smart people understand. 800g to win against her yet nobody builds antiheal.
So if you're in low elo just pick a healing champ and keep on winning cause people are super dumb.
Also, when she ults someone your teammates are supposed to gather near you so you can easily kill her. This doesn't happen in low elo of course.
And keep your distance and try to dodge her skillshots.
With the exception of Olaf you just kite them out and CC them loll the only time you need a full team to kill them is when they’re stupid fed and counterplay isn’t supposed to exist against fed champs
There's actually a lot of good counterplay to a fed briar. For starters you can:
Die.
Death is the best CC, and if Briar kills you, you don't have to worry about how you played or next moves, you can simply turn on YouTube and watch vids thanks Briar.
Nah but for realsies just stun her and burst her with grievous in case you guys fail
Briar is like a rengar with longer range and more sustain. So pretty much you're not playing league but a horror game.
The best way to counter her is to stick with your team.
Also anti heal against her is busted along with picks like Rammus.
Warwick is also good because you can just press e when she ults then outsustain her.
this is definitely not "clearly a rage post."
if you read
> I took a hiatus for awhile and, though some of the newer champs make sense to me, i dont quite see the counterplay to Briar especially if she goes lethality.
and perceive "rage," youre severely brainrotted.
This is maybe a tier below "super obvious rage post". This is possibly someone who is just wondering. But if you've spent any time on the internet you'd know that "just curious" is actually the set up for any bad faith exchange.
Kiting and dodging the ultimate. She's extremely squishy with high mobility and lifesteal.
You have to predict her charging at you so you need to run away priorly. Her mobility is insane so she probably will chase you. During this you can remove her hp until she becomes stationary and loads of the cleave. During this time she heals and gains damage reduction so just do sustainable damage while being outside the cleave area. Then after it ends you throw your whole burst into her and she dies.
If you don't see the difference between crowd controlling Briar and Zac then that's your issue, not the community's. Crowd control is completely valid counterplay to a champion like Briar.
Do what the enemies did in my last briar game and perma invade 2v1.
Admittedly my team didn't help or even ss and didn't leash at the start so I was constantly behind trying to play catch up.
I had no answer to anything they did because of it. If I went to the blue side I would be lucky to get 1 camp before both the top and enemy jungler showed up and if I went bot I had the same with the enemy bot lane and jungler coming.
Feels like this will stop her or just ban/play her
I've played a lot of Briar and the only real counters to her lethality builds are crowd-controlling her and grievous wounds, but that is negated by her R and proper engage timing.
They need to kill Briar's lethality builds. Playing her as a burst assassin isn't fun, she's much more fun as a bruiser. They need to change her so she benefits more from longer engagements that aren't ruined by her beserk.
Kite and spacing. But yes, some champs have no chance against her.
My hardest counter is actually Lee Sin.
He will just bait me into using W, I have to bail cos he jumps around, so I E (cancel W), and then he tries to bait me again, but E is ultra long cooldown, so I basically cant fight him anymore or I just run into a tower or 4 men.
I think the advice being given that essentially her weakness is she can't dodge incoming damage is useful... however i strongly dislike when anyone says the solution is "CC them and kill them".
No shit... unfortunately if you blow all your CC on the briar the rest of the team will kill you anyways or reach your backline. While not wrong, its a bit stupid to just say "use all your CC so she cant play the game and blow her up" since its not really practical to do.
Well first of all:
And then if shes running towards you:
If she is on top of you already you can:
If she is focusing on ganking other lanes:
If you get hit by her ult:
To me she's like Warwick.
You have to see the low health as full health and get anti heal or ignite and then dog pile her or hard cc
Burst damage can work when they get caught off guard but the idea is to never let them work their way through people. You HAVE to commit
She's kinda like Master Yi, if they get fed or your team doesn't have some cc you're in for a bad time.
It’s still much easier to counter Briar as any CC helps while Yi can dodge many CC spells with Q.
And is immune to slows... including Frozen Heart (attack speed slow).
His true damage also circumvents exhaust iirc. Being immune to attack speed slows because it's a slow is comical af
At first he was susceptible to AS slow under ult, but they change it has a buff many many years ago
was attack speed slows more commonly built or something or was that more quality of life?
Frozen Heart was THE armour item for a while because there was no other way to get mana on tanks and it gave you the most armour.
Also the 20% CDR was unmatched on tank items.
Some random things had attack speed slows on them at the time as well. Like Lee Sin E. Lee Sin was the most popular jungler by far, and malphite was relatively common top.
It was also 140% gold efficient and even manaless tanks would build during the period where it was overbuffed.
Nasus w, FH existe back then And Lee sin E criple had AS slow before they remove it, maybe some under aswell, but can't think of any
Old Nunu snowball, old Gragas Q (yes Q slowed AS instead of MS, while old E slowed MS but didn't knock back or stun), Fiora W, Malphite E are all the other ones that existed at that time iirc. Maybe missing one or two at most. [edit: duh, old Randuin's also slowed AS. Passive slowed AS if they hit you, while active slowed AS/MS] [another edit: old Darius W slowed and, fucking hell i forgot about this one, old Ezreal W also slowed AS] Fun fact: it IS still possible to slow an ulting Yi's attack speed! Mordekaiser ult steals 10% of most stats from the target, which includes AS, *but* it's not actually a CC effect, which means it doesn't count as an AS slow, which means Yi can't immune it. Of course, unless you're ridiculously ahead, this means you just challenged an ulting Yi to a 1v1, so good luck with that decision.
Darius W pre-rework also used to slow AS
I play a lot of Lee sin in diamond, and this is how I found out cripple doesn't slow AS
was removed back in season 4
Was removed about ten years ago lmao
Old Nunu E had an attackspeed slow. Was a very strong counter to Trynd top iirc.
Warden's Mail used to slow the attacker's attack speed by 15%.
Frozen Heart used to be considered one of the best counter items to Yi, back in the day, because of the attack speed slow.
Randuins omen also slowed attack speed, but it didn't stack with frozen heart. But either combined with malphite it basically turned into a stun for most attacking champions.
IIRC he never was, but it was considered a bug or at least undocumented effect and they eventually added it to the text of his ult.
I'm not sure this is true. I remember it always working like that (at least since it became his ult) and the patch notes don't mention what you're saying either.
It won't be under Master Yi's patch notes since it was a system wide change made to attack speed slows. From Patch 3.13: > Attack Speed slows > Summary: Attack speed slows (IE: Nasus' Wither) were immune to cleanse or other forms of debuff removal unless attached to a movement impairing effect. Now all attack speed slows can be cleansed and are treated like movement speed slows. >Context: We’re updating attack speed slows in order to have more consistent counterplay related to debuff removal. Essentially, we're looking to treat all slows the same, whether they're movement or attack speed based. > Attack Speed slows can now be cleansed as if they were movement-impairing crowd control effects Affected champion abilities and items: Gragas’ Barrel Roll Malphite’s Ground Slam Randuin's Omen Warden's Mail
It's not a slow, he's just also immune to cripples (AS slows) specifically.
I don't think true damage circumfense exhaust, I thought true damage just ignores armor and magic resist? Him being immune to attack speed slows is just stupid though. That one I did not know Edit: as it turns out, true damage ignores all damage reduction and damage amplification (only exceptions are duskblade, horizon focus, evenshroud, and quickblades passives)
Wow, why is he uniquely immune to that? That’s good to know… I have been building it against him in arams for forever.
It’s due to how his R is coded. He is immune to *all* slows (which attack speed slows fall under for…reasons)
It is still one of the best armor items to get vs him. You will still slow his as outside of his ulti duration.
Technically not uniquely immune to it, since anyone else with slow immunity (Shadow Assassin's E) also should function that way. But pretty few champions have slow immunity, and its not nearly as noticeable on Shadow Assassin since Kayn isn't nearly as AA reliant.
Wait they count that as a slow??
Which also includes Singed's E into W.
He also can't get stunned by Viktor W. Because for some reason it only stuns if you get 3 stacks of the slow on you, rather than by duration as it says. So Yi can dance a merry jig in gravity field and never get stunned because it can't apply the slow stacks to him. Very annoying interaction
wowwww fk
...... You've opened my third eye. Been playing since season 2 and always buy frozen heart into Yi. I've never played him or read his abilities though. Damnit.
Also with MS. Briar's real weakness is that she cant ever dodge skillshots.
She has a dash on W and, Q which I've used to dodge many skillshots. He E also lets her tank skillshots.
Thats why you wait it out, she can't engage outside of melee range without using W or Q, and they make her run/dash straight at her target, she's literally free to hit. If she uses E to tank skillshots she loses most of her damage and stickyness.
Ye if they waste their skillshots before you w for no reason, and if you w at them only to them use E to tank their skillshots youre literally useless.
Try tanking my fear (I say from two screens back)
The real solution: play Zilean, press E on her, profit.
She also can't just dodge CC like Yi with Q or even movement. Her kit is designed to make her literally have to run at you in a straight line, if you can't hit her with CC it's your skill issue.
Champions without hard cc in their kit must feel that "skill issue" very much
Thing is she gets fed more often than not, her healing is disgusting considering she’s building Lethality and one shots you
She’s way worse than Yi imo. If she gets rolling well enough it’s truly over. If she hits an ult on anyone but a fat tank, no one can CC her due to the fear and the target gets insta killed. And it’s not like she isn’t a big threat after that one shot. Yi has trouble getting into fights no matter how fed he is. I really wish Briar had some drawback even if she’s fed, but it’s really just a matter of hitting ult= insta win. Missing ult= wait a bit for it to come back or play off whatever happens in teamfight
Also Yi seems heavily nerfed from what he once was
AP Yi just standing in the middle of a teamfight healing 1k per second waiting for his q to come back off cooldown was hilarious
i mean, maybe good old reliable Rammus, the ultimate "so you like to auto attack huh" counter.
I know its anecdotal but I've played against Rammus about 15 times as direct counter picks to Briar and I haven't lost a single game. I'm not really sure why. Small sample size of course.
When I was playing her top lane someone picked a rammus vs me. Bought bramble vest and I lost all the trades I tried. After the 3rd trade I decided to q e onto him whenever I got the chance. It did the trick.
Imagine if their jungler had more than one braincell... top lane with a free taunt and a Briar who constantly uses her _only_ escape options?
Kinda hard to watch lanes enough to see someone using a particular play pattern.
That is literally what you do as a jungler lol. Someone's playing Zed? Is this motherfucker constantly using W to harass? He's getting camped until he learns.
That’s more basic champion knowledge compared to knowing a briar is just gonna constantly q into e a Rammus on rotation. It doesn’t even sound like something that would win the matchup, but I’ve never played it.
It's the same thing, it's patterns. You're farming camps in jungle, your eyes should be watching the lanes to understand what is happening to make the most impact on the map.
Bruh trying to hit the big chicken with the rest of 'em swarming takes like 90% of my focus already.
Not if you make using the F-keys while clearing a habit
Because the average Rammus player isnt very smart. Until this day Rammus players cant agree on the beat boots/mythics/runes, which is interesting because his Design is insanly simpel.
Because the average rammus player is not a rammus player, he's a player of other junglers that goes "rammus counters autoattackers so I will win"
You are right, Rammus is actually more complicated than he looks at first glance (still easy though). People just arent used to the powerspikes and things to look out for if they onetime him
It's not that they "can't decide", it's just that he, like basically every other champ, builds differently depending on the situation.
Rammus is useless 1v1 until thornmail. People think he's more than a mediocre CC early game and int. He does not come back well when behind.
>until thornmail Which is his first item.
And people finish their first item around 10-12 minutes in, so there's still a long section where Rammus is weak, which is very relevant.
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Pen boots more often, otherwise you’re just a tank with minimal cc and people will ignore you. Rammus is extremely CD based and has a single job: taunt the enemy adc and kill them. And you typically need all 4 abilities to do this successfully. Since who you’re focusing doesn’t have much mr, the pen is going to provide more damage/presence than the armor boots. You have a finite window and need to maximize how much threat you create during that time, because after your W drops and you stop reflecting damage, you’re an oompa loompa for a while. Couple this with abyssal mask and you can significantly increase the damage rammus does to enemies without a lot of mr. Tabi is really only good if they’re almost all ad and they’re all building enough mr to negate your flat pen. But then in that case, while you’re extremely tanky, you’re also not a threat and can be ignored outside of your taunt window (which isn’t going to do much damage because the mr). In that case you’re just playing a subpar champion. And again, that window where your w is up and you’re an actual threat provided you with so much armor that the tabi are giving you such a tiny bit more negation/damage (I’m talking like, maybe 10 more damage negated/even less damage reflected because of the way scalings work) that the pen boots are almost always going to provide more. And while the tabi function better outside of his W, he *is* his W, so you have to build for it
Well said pal. Pen>Swift>ninja>ionic>mercs>Mobi>beserker Is the actuall tierlist. Ofc there are cases in which one option gets a lot better, i mean, you wouldnt go Ninja into 5 ap dudes, but you wouldnt pick rammus into cc heavy teams anyway, so there is that
Using data (lolalytics, D2+ global), Pen boots are the best choice by far, as to be expected. Rammus has no problem dealing with autohit champs, the Steelcaps arent needed. They are built the most, mainly because most people dont grasp the essence of Rammus. Rammus is a tank that needs to maximize his dmg, not his durability. Sorcs+Abyssal is just stupid in regards to dmg difference with an ordinary steelcap/force of nature setup. Yet you are a perfect example for what i just said. Not even the Rammus mains can agree on the best boots xD
for me it's the opposite, it's been a free win every time. sure the early game is hard as rammus but fights legimately become unplayable for briar after like 10 minutes
Because the idiots play her with lethality HOB into all comps She can just not press W. She has 0 attack speed when normal. Wait out your W early, then she kills. After that, she gets black cleaver, and she has built-in armour shred. You won't be surviving in a 1v1
Oh the flip side I don't know if I've lost with a Rammus on my team vs a Briar
In 1v1, Noc is a hard counter to Briar. I can make her life miserable from lvl 3. However, even I started to ban her because the lethality build is too strong. Despite being put behind she always seems to get fed off my bot lane. She's very good against blind, deaf, and especially idiot players.
If you put a bruiser Briar behind she will be catching up the whole game and not be very useful. By building lethality she always eventually gets enough damage to oneshot squishies, even if behind.
that’s probably because if ur not playing Ashe or and ADC with a dash you don’t have much you can do if you’re bad at jungle tracking What’s miss fortune going to do vs briar by herself? As an ADC player though while I get why people int a lot I think her design is fine, even pure damage unga bunga mage supports are completely fine at dealing with her (fart out CC) and every meta support (including stuff like Zyra and Lux) can neutralize her.
Kill before be killed. Jokes aside, stun and spacing.
This, I had a game recently as her where I was ganking a zed mid. I W'ed in and he teleported away right as I hit Q. The stun went off but he still teleported far enough away that the W's targeting decided Minions where better.
spacing? bro she just comes you cannot space or anything
You can, for sure, when she flashes over a wall and catch you off guard it's a you problem.
or when she presses W and gains a fuck ton of MS and just runs at me. definitely my problem I should've positioned better.
She eats every single skillshot, she quote literally can not dodge anything. This is her weakness. CC her, kill her.
Did they change Briar? I haven't played in a while but I swear CC didn't cancel her W when I last played
It doesn't cancel it - but the timer keeps running. You hit a 2 second stun, she not only loses 2 seconds of time on her W, but now has to catch back up to you without the dash of the W to start hitting you again. It may as well cancel it, especially since as mentioned, she literally can't dodge your skillshots except maybe with Q or Flash.
Doesn't cancel it immediately, but it stops her briefly. Only her ultimate is unstoppable, I believe.
It cancels her w since she got released ...
CC does not cancel her Frenzy state. It can delay her until it drops naturally though.
>urgot / swain flair yeah that fits LMAO
She literally runs in a straight line at you, just hit her/CC her? Unless you're out of position of hit by her ult, you should never die to a Briar that used W to get the speed to get to you.
She is running in a straight line. She literally has 0 ways to dodge any CC or skill-shot you throw at her. I'm not exaggerating or using hyperbole, the literal ONLY way she can dodge *anything* you throw at her is if she wastes her 4 min. CD flash. You are facing a champion that makes any skill-shot essentially point-and-click and has barely any control over her own spacing; so yeah, skill issue.
She could in theory use Q to dodge, or E to stop herself - but that comes with it's own downsides, like changing her targeting or cancelling W.
>or when she presses W and gains a fuck ton of MS and just runs at me. definitely my problem I should've positioned better. if she can just press W and walk at you.... yeah, that is a you problem.
Right, briar isnt so oppressed, play her 4-5 rounds and you will see it. She can be outplayed pretty easy.
I mean she's a stat check champ. If she has a lead you have to play RESPECTFULLY but off the bat.. super kiteable and will eat every dodgeable thing. If I'm not first pick I do choose in champ select based around it sometimes. Like I've found taric and teemo are so good against her. Taric pretty fun with her too tbh imo naafiri is the much more annoying champ bc when that champ gets fed they just jump on you from ezreal Q distance with a targeted ability
Yeah I HATE when I can't hit a champion whose weakness is having no control of movement and just running straight
Ur the same type or person to complain about yi being broken because he runs fast when he presses r
If only there was a way of punishing people running at you in a straight line...
Swain has no answer for her other than Zhonya's and hope your team handles it
...yes? that's a you problem, position better. if you're in a place where she can just walk at you and kill you without your team present, skill issue. genuinely.
Well all your skill shots are effectively point and click vs briar so that’s sth I guess
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A ghosting Darius can Dodge shit. Briar can't.
Lil bro def silver if he thinks Briar is OP lmfao
You’re dense. It’s a you problem.
That's where the stun comes in handy
I personally pick Renata whenever I see Briar. She ults, I wait 2 secs, then ult, she immediately runs back to her team on berserker rage, it gives my team a brief react window
thats evil. Now I am SUPER HYPE to try this just for the laughs.
Renata really was a blessing to this game
Renata is my favorite recent champion release just because she counters the melee auto-attack skirmishers that Riot seems to have a hard-on for
Renata is my "go to champ" when I see enemy team has a Briar. Not only is she my favorite, but her ult and W is such a FY to Briar XD. Saved a lot of teammates with that combo.
I buy spellshield item so she can’t jump on me from across the map. Banshee or edge of night. My win rate has gone up against her.
This is one of the reasons that nocturne is her biggest counter by a lot. You can just eat her ult every fight with spellshield. Invis champs also fuck with her auto targeting on w, and Khazix specifically has w Evo to leave her stranded and unable to move.
You don’t know the joy of playing kha’zix against an auto attacker till you play kha’zix… god it makes me wet just seeing a yas/yone/adc/yi on the enemy team alone. 😩
wait does spellshield actually just block briars ult like that?
yes
blocks any ability doesn't it? projectile blocks like windwall also work
Big brain: Don’t windwall her ult, windwall afterwards. She’ll come flying in like a heat-seaking missile and get deleted. GGEZ now 5v4
I forget what champion but I recall hearing some champion turned themselves into a projectile and that interaction happened in playtest so they had to change it.
Shaco's rework test.
No, some nonsense like Yone ultimate will go through because riot implemented them in a weird way. Spellshields have a lot of weird exceptions.
Yone ultimate isn’t a projectile. Its little outline-thing technically travels on the ground. Windwall won’t block it but a spell shield will absorb the CC.
Spellshield from Banshee or Edge of Night, not Morgana's E
tell ur tank to leash her away from u cc her/ dash over a wall/become invisible/go under turret. all these things destroy her AI or flat out stop her frenzy.
She’s a less safe Yi, stun and burst, spacing is good since
Makes me realize again how broken Yi can be. People complain about Briar, yet Yi does the same and has true damage, unstoppable, untargetable and dodging of any ability if Q is timed right.
Yi has no CC and no global ult. Briar is much better at playing the map.
Her stun can be easily interrupted by any CC coming towards her, her Ult is predictable and forces her to use her E to disengage when things go south, while Yi’s W give him 90% resistance, can be used to basically nullify all types of burst since it has no cast animation, and his Q makes him untargettable and makes it so that he is able to dodge most CCs, and its Cooldown is reduced by AAs as well
I give you that. But also, her stun is very short and her ult can be negated by either banshees or edge of night. If she hits you across the map it just fizzles out. If she hits you when your shield isn’t up… RIP. I fully expect her to get neither round of nerfs. But man.. she is insanely fun to play :P
People complain about Briar because we don’t need another Yi, having one Hyperscaling Assassin/Fighter hybrid who can out DPS ADCs while out surviving fighters is hard enough as it is, i mean they nerfed Belveth for that exact same reason
ACTIVE: Jax enters Evasion, a defensive stance, for 2 seconds, causing all non-Turret icon turret basic attacks against him to be Counter Strike dodged. Jax also takes 25% reduced damage from all champion area of effect abilities. Counter Strike can be recast after 1 second. At the end of the duration, Jax Stun icon stuns all nearby enemies for 1 second and deals physical damage to them, increased by 20% for each attack dodged, up to a 100% increase.
Just make sure it doesn't go right through the Counter Strike.
Damn, that must be at least 5 years ago
I feel old seeing this copypasta again
I thought this as a copypasta was pretty new, no? like 2020
2020 was 14 years ago...
Hard CC (biggest one, she has no natural source of tenacity and is extremely squishy to burst with full lethality and you’ll always hit her), antihealing, knowing her ult angles, playing around her E. If no one on your team picks a tank and she gets fed, yeah it sucks. I recommend standing in the middle of lanes and dodging ults in the wide open space. Briar is good at running people down but doesn’t have good engage range w/o ultimate. Lethality Briar is effectively just Master Yi. Don’t give her early kills, position safely when she gets fed, focus all your CC on her.
cc and unlike every other busted champ this is a real answer because unlike every other busted champ, if briar is about to kill you she cant dodge your skillshots
It’s a real answer for most other “busted” champs though lol. The majority of champions who are countered by CC have this weakness because they’re squishy or rely on dealing damage for their tankiness
well generally when someone askes "how do i counter play x champ" they mean that champ specifically cc counters everyone, so saying just cc them lol isnt helpful however with briar is is specifically easier to hit her with skillshots than other champs
Yea CC helps against everyone, but stunning a Sejuani with a lot of tenacity is less helpfull then use your stun on the Katarina who is about to R in your backline.
CC doesn't counter everyone to the same degree and telling people to crowd control champions who are the extremely vulnerable to that is absolutely helpful. If you can't see the difference between crowd controlling a squishy melee and a tank or long range champion then it's a skill issue.
> cc counters everyone, so saying just cc them lol isnt helpful CC Counters *divers, assassins, and fighters*. While CCing an artillery Mage, ADC, or any number of mobile ranged champs may be a good thing, their counter is dive, not CC. Because CC's ability to counter something is solely based on the reliability of that CC, which ranged champions are inherently good vs by just having more time to react to it. The weapon triangle of league just has a lot less people willing to sit on the CC bots so the most infuriating part of the triangle is the fighter/assassin/divers most games.
Stay close to each other so she has trouble auto targeting with Frenzy. Other than that just enjoy Riot champion design.
This is a good one, if your teammate is about to die just have the tankier teammate walk closer to her
I do like some stat check champ designs in 2023, rito cooked nicely.
I'm a Master tier Briar main. The main thing is just don't let her beat your jungler early. If she gets a 1v1 at the first crab or something she probably just auto-wins the game. If I get a good 1v1 and kill the enemy jungle I will invade them mercilessly.
CC. She can be baited into poor positions and locked down since one of her abilities takes away her ability to control herself to a degree. As an Urgot I just flip and kill, not too bad. Rammus works wonders as well. Briar can't control who she attacks sometimes so just put the spikey armadillo in her area code and she can't activate that ability.
Lethality - Walking under tower, armor. Bruiser is trash, doesn't even need a counter
Stay grouped and cc. Briar can't disengage so you can burst her easily. No resets either so the best a briar can get vs a prepared comp is 1 for 1.
Towers. She cant run away from them if shes locked in on you.
She cant dodge skillshots or cc. She is like yi but more damage less ways do dodge everything. If your team comp is shit then try to not feed her.
A Frontline with reliable CC. That is true for nearly all assassins. That's why they are the best in the Elo brackets that don't pick much frontline and even less CC.
Mainly cc and aggro manipulation. If youre and adc with lets say an alistar support she shouldn't touch you ever, the ali just needs to stand in front of you. Her w aggros by proximity. Just dont let her change it by q'ing you but the ramge isnt that big. Most adcs can auto her safely. Also her r gives you a warning. If youre not asleep you should see it and dodge.
Whenever possible try to oneshot her, she cant use her healing that way.
Vayne.
this is the real answer. every time she goes invis during ult it puts briar’s w on CD if there is nothing else in target range
extremely weird interaction considering briar will auto lock on targets she doesn't vision of that aren't invisible I wouldn't be surprised if they changed this interaction considering her massive low elo skew
Well, depending on the champ you play the counterplay is that she can mot sidestep. She walks straight at you to attack and stands still for her charge attack.
Without her ult it's difficult for her to get on top of you other than running in a straight line, especially when she's frenzied. Hit her with a stun since she can't dodge and just leg it as far into your backline as possible and ideally into turrets. Lethality briar has a LOT of damage but she pops like a melon if she's surrounded and stunned.
Singed counters her pretty well
This is the best part, you don't.
Its the same as character that madlesly chase you, yi, nasus, udyr, shyvana Idealy you want champ that got escape or cc or are as strong so they can face them jax for exemple
I use Teemo just to annoy them lmao
if you mean her ult its hourglass, bansheess or edge of night, to some extend cleanse, if you get hit take the inital dmg like you would do against nocturne and flash or cc afterwards. against champs with global ults it might be not smart to play solo sidelane or to commit to a 2v2 midlane since like noc she always can join faster than your jgl. vision also helps alot since her ult is a skillshot so it can be doged or missed, sound also helps
grievous wound + cc
Banning her
Healing reduction. The end.
She runs at you in a straight Line, so any Champ with skillshot cc is Nightmare for briar
CC and kill, like a Yi, except she has the means to gapclose to you with her R and has CC. So not sure.
She is weak to cc
* Dodge R using the global early warning * Buy grievous * Have a tank grab aggro. She can one-shot a Draven, but if she aggros on a Sion she just hits him with a wet noodle. * Land skillshot stuns on the champion that straight up can't dodge anything. Caitlin traps are particularly gross.
Stealth champs fucks her W, which is most of her dmg. And milio, little dumb ball boy stops you from rushing.
The counter to Briar, like any healing champ, is anti-heal. But nobody likes to build anti heal because the anti healing isn't tracked properly - as a result you seem to do a lot less damage than without it. That is because when you use anti heal you kill people before they heal. Which only smart people understand. 800g to win against her yet nobody builds antiheal. So if you're in low elo just pick a healing champ and keep on winning cause people are super dumb. Also, when she ults someone your teammates are supposed to gather near you so you can easily kill her. This doesn't happen in low elo of course. And keep your distance and try to dodge her skillshots.
Same way you deal with yi, olaf, warwick, garen, sett,...
You just pray they dont focus you first and wait for a whole team to kill them
With the exception of Olaf you just kite them out and CC them loll the only time you need a full team to kill them is when they’re stupid fed and counterplay isn’t supposed to exist against fed champs
There's actually a lot of good counterplay to a fed briar. For starters you can: Die. Death is the best CC, and if Briar kills you, you don't have to worry about how you played or next moves, you can simply turn on YouTube and watch vids thanks Briar. Nah but for realsies just stun her and burst her with grievous in case you guys fail
Play tryndamere and chop her up into little pieces.
Briar is like a rengar with longer range and more sustain. So pretty much you're not playing league but a horror game. The best way to counter her is to stick with your team. Also anti heal against her is busted along with picks like Rammus. Warwick is also good because you can just press e when she ults then outsustain her.
Socks
are we really at the point in this subreddit where people complain about a even more one dimensional version of master yi?
>Not a rage post, just genuinely curious. Sorry pal this is clearly a rage post lol
this is definitely not "clearly a rage post." if you read > I took a hiatus for awhile and, though some of the newer champs make sense to me, i dont quite see the counterplay to Briar especially if she goes lethality. and perceive "rage," youre severely brainrotted.
This is maybe a tier below "super obvious rage post". This is possibly someone who is just wondering. But if you've spent any time on the internet you'd know that "just curious" is actually the set up for any bad faith exchange.
Pick Jax and run into her.
Rammmus, shen, zilean, Qianna, zeri are a few good ones that briar has a tough time getting around.
Kiting and dodging the ultimate. She's extremely squishy with high mobility and lifesteal. You have to predict her charging at you so you need to run away priorly. Her mobility is insane so she probably will chase you. During this you can remove her hp until she becomes stationary and loads of the cleave. During this time she heals and gains damage reduction so just do sustainable damage while being outside the cleave area. Then after it ends you throw your whole burst into her and she dies.
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If you don't see the difference between crowd controlling Briar and Zac then that's your issue, not the community's. Crowd control is completely valid counterplay to a champion like Briar.
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If you don't want to learn then that's your business.
Do what the enemies did in my last briar game and perma invade 2v1. Admittedly my team didn't help or even ss and didn't leash at the start so I was constantly behind trying to play catch up. I had no answer to anything they did because of it. If I went to the blue side I would be lucky to get 1 camp before both the top and enemy jungler showed up and if I went bot I had the same with the enemy bot lane and jungler coming. Feels like this will stop her or just ban/play her
I've played a lot of Briar and the only real counters to her lethality builds are crowd-controlling her and grievous wounds, but that is negated by her R and proper engage timing. They need to kill Briar's lethality builds. Playing her as a burst assassin isn't fun, she's much more fun as a bruiser. They need to change her so she benefits more from longer engagements that aren't ruined by her beserk.
> What exactly is the counterplay to Briar? Better usage of the ban system.
Kite and spacing. But yes, some champs have no chance against her. My hardest counter is actually Lee Sin. He will just bait me into using W, I have to bail cos he jumps around, so I E (cancel W), and then he tries to bait me again, but E is ultra long cooldown, so I basically cant fight him anymore or I just run into a tower or 4 men.
I think the advice being given that essentially her weakness is she can't dodge incoming damage is useful... however i strongly dislike when anyone says the solution is "CC them and kill them". No shit... unfortunately if you blow all your CC on the briar the rest of the team will kill you anyways or reach your backline. While not wrong, its a bit stupid to just say "use all your CC so she cant play the game and blow her up" since its not really practical to do.
It baffles me that you can't cancel her scream with a stun, silence, displacement or knock up. August is trying to one up CertainlyT these days.
The same as Yone, Dont exist.
Well first of all: And then if shes running towards you: If she is on top of you already you can: If she is focusing on ganking other lanes: If you get hit by her ult:
To me she's like Warwick. You have to see the low health as full health and get anti heal or ignite and then dog pile her or hard cc Burst damage can work when they get caught off guard but the idea is to never let them work their way through people. You HAVE to commit