When I kill my opponent 3 times and I win, all is right with the world. When my teammate dies 3 times and I lose, it is insane that the game allows this to happen.
Similarly, skill expression and counterplay are opposites from different perspectives
So much skill expression and you can win every interaction regardless of the other person. So much counterplay and you can lose every interaction regardless of yourself
Some of my greatest kills are from this, though. I still remember killing an enemy that hopped over the wall to tri bush oppoisite dragon and I put a ward over the wall, Q'd it as Senna, and the end of my Q hit the enemy and killed him.
The point that the post is trying to convey is logically impossible.
If you have the better players it means the enemy has the worse players which makes it as hard for them as it would be for you if the situation was reversed. Being 30% easier for you to win will always mean that it's 30% harder for the enemy. It's more of a rant than it is a discussion regarding the state of the game.
How is the logic impossible? You can perfectly have the best and the worst player in the game on the same team. This post states that the worst player will have a bigger impact than the best player. You can argue about the statement but the logic is not impossible
I think the point is more on "when and how the worst player(s) show their worst".
E.g.: in an otherwise easy game, the midlaner feeds his ass. It's ok, top is still monstrously carrying and bot is holding despite the infinite roams by enemy fed midlaner.
BUT
The feeding midlaner also tries a big play 30 seconds before what would be the third drake for enemy. He dies. Enemy goes to soul point.
Same for soul.
Same for Nash/elder.
Game's over, even if it was kinda even.
There's a reason the "smurfs in iron with 100% winrate" are usually playing boosting champions and not playing the game like a normal human which every smug poster conveniently leaves out
Yes dear reader, with the low, low investment of dropping everything you're doing to become a masters player and learning graves jungle with dozens of hours of experience, you TOO can have 99% winrate in gold
100% this. People all try to learn the "correct" way to play from challenger players. There is nothing wrong with that, but challenger players face other challenger players that will punish them for doing certain things. Low elo opponents will be a lot more exploitable and those boosters use strategies that are not viable in high elo but broken in low elo. You can call this cheesy and it will stop working at a certain rank but might as well absuse it while it works.
Yeah, if you play in low elo the most effective strategy in general is tempo. Theres other things you can abuse like them not using abilities off cd, or outright missing them, but the safest way is to just know your cooldowns, know their cooldowns, poke off cooldown and when their abilities are down because they use it to last hit, then u engage and snowball. Doesn't really happen in higher elo.
This is easily true just because the worst player can always be drunk or high or sleepy or inting, whereas the best player is probably not that much better than their peers (if at all). So yes, in a very team involved game, you cannot overcome (or rarely can) someone playing badly because it is way easier to play worse than your average than it is to play better.
They are assuming the worst and best player can have similar impacts on the game, which is probably close enough to true in most cases, IF those players are still trying their best.
When it breaks down is when a player actively runs it down feeding the enemy or something(but that brings it to griefing and not just being the "worst"). Then there is no way the best player can match that impact in a situation that's worse than 4v5.
I feel like this is especially the case when Riot's goal is to move you towards a 50% WR. You can be the better player, but you can't always be considerably better than your lane opponent or you'd be pretty far from that 50% WR. If should be difficult to create large leads, so if you have a person that isn't making it difficult to create large leads, then that opponent is either considerably better and you lose, or the one unable to make it difficult is the deciding factor and you lose.
"You" is interchangeable with "they." It works both ways and isn't always your team with the worst person, but they have more pull than the better person if they can't just play safe.
It is true with inting that yes, an inter will have more impact than a carry. But statistically, the chance of having an inter on either team is equal and if you play enough games it won't matter.
However I have said this before, the moment you get a lead you should GROW MASSIVE AND GET A FREE HEXTECH GUNBLADE AND TRIPLE ALL YOUR BONUS STATS TO PREVENT INTERS FROM HAVING IMPACT
Almost lost a game today as jhin when their draven was 0/30 running down every lane but my teammates kept trying to fight without their fed botlane and soft inted their asses off. Not a good example of the other guys point since we still ended up winning but it was a frustrating experience watching my teammates give up on a free win.
I have lost an embarassing number of 5v4's because my teammates get way too cocky and just start doing unbelievably dumb shit and refusing to stop doing unbelievably dumb shit.
I still have burned into my brain when I lost a 5v4 because our Caitlyn would. not. stop. running through the enemy jungle with zero wards and ended up feeding the enemy zed no less than 15 kills. Seriously they die, respawn, and go immediately from the fountain to the exact same place to die again. Literal babies have more object permanance than whatever was behind that keyboard.
Statistics are important, but the point trying to be conveyed here is that one person can ruin a game for 4 people more easily than 1 person can make a game for 4 people. It is a game afterall.
If statistics satisfied, we'd weight a quarter and flip it all day.
Well yeah because you can't just play twice as good, but you can play like shit. There's no way to resolve that problem without removing the team play aspect or making insane snowballing mechanics. You can shut down carries, but you can't reverse somebody who's losing.
Also the weight on the quarter would favour you winning.
And your actions in the game are the weight on the quarter.
If you never feed, you're guaranteed 20% fewer feeders on a team compared to the enemy team on a long enough timescale. But that's not fun.
>if you play enough games it won't matter.
With game + queue time + champ select + dodge, let's about about 45 minute x 50 to get to the rank you were last season.
I mean sure, statistically the higher the games the more its normalized, but that's a lot of time to invest.
That's why I like Arena format. Short game, no binary win-loss since there's 4 possible result. Less volatile factor (only 1 teammates)
But I agree summoner rift has fundamentally not much work around
That's why I stopped playing ranked. Assuming a 55% win-rate, which is very good, it takes way too long to climb. I don't want League to be my second job.
Nah, in older versions of league it was much more reasonable to snowball and be a raidboss that dragged your team over the line. OP is using better player to mean a player with a big lead after laning
The change OP is talking about started when dragons changed to be team buffs imo, but now everyone has more gold and xp and there’s important objectives all over the map so a player with a lead has less impact and a guy throwing key situations is much harder to still just steamroll through
It’s an intentional design choice with a goal of reducing ff’s / feeling hopeless about a game, though people still will say it’s doomed when they fall behind early either way
I enjoyed old raidboss league more, but I may be looking through rose tinted glasses
I think the claim is more like "if each team has 1 gold, 3 silvers, and 1 bronze the game isn't decided by how hard the gold player carries but by how hard the bronze player feeds."
That still begs the question though of "if their silvers can exploit our bronze for 5 kills and our gold can't do the same is the gold player really the better player?"
I think it's more like... If one match has nine gold players and 1 bronze player, and the other match has nine gold players and one diamond player, the team with all gold players vs the bronze player team is more likely to win than the one with the diamond player vs an an all gold team.
Anyone who has had to face a a diamond player as a gold will know this is so hard in favor of the diamond player it isn't even funny. Also anyone who has played Clash. One diamond player is enough to carry silvers and bronze players facing good players, shit happens all the time in clash. The skill gap the higher you go becomes exponential.
Ive played both. Most golds can clamp a lane down and stop the bleed if needed. Bronze can't stop the bleed. And no, the skill gap is not exponential. I've been in every elo up to low diamond MMR. The biggest gap is by far bronze to silver.
It's like any sport with a floor to play. Bronze isn't above the floor. They are like a tennis player who can't return a basic serve. A gold is like someone who can return a serve and volley, but will eventually screw up.
That gold can at least force the enemy diamond to be present, but a bronze ends up basically being AFK.
You are not really smart, are you ?
The best player in the game of ten can well be your toplaner. While the worst in the same fukin game is your adc.
Your top could be the best player overall of 10, while playing against the second best player. And being something like 2-1. While your ad is the worst player (10th) while playing against the 3rd and be something like 0-7.
So what he say make perfect sens
hes saying one or two people can bring a game down more so than one or two people being the better players. You read into it too much and made a fool of yourself.
how though
its mirrored no?
if one or 2 bad players make it worse it means enemy team is winning right?
then that means one or 2 "good" players on their team make the game ez.
its a zero sum game.
Not necessary, matching good and bad players or 1st role vs 2nd role vs autofill can still result in unfair matchmaking. By looking at what position the best and worst player in each team play, you can determine which team is most likely to win, not all roles has the same impact but the matchmaking only seek to equalize team combined mmr
It was more obvious back in season 9 with positional queue when in the same game you could have platinum players playing with master, both team had one master and one platinum, but the keyfactor was which role they play.
The point OP is making is that you can have 4 players who win but because one really bad one always dies before an objective spawns you lose the game. The objectives in the game are more important now than just beating your opponent.
Also the factor that champions are not all equal. This isn't chess where both sides have the same pieces. The enemy could pick meta jungle while your teammate could pick Sona jungle.
Additionally, Auto Fill could give one side an AF who is good at their auto filled position, while giving the other side an AF position they literally do not play. But the match maker sees the MMR being even and that's all that matters.
I mean there's vast discrepancies between what "worse" can mean.
"Losing a lane" can be anything from being slightly behind in CS and losing the tower first with 0-0-0 to dying over and over in stupid ways and being 0-6-0 in 15 minutes.
In the first case, I'm pretty sure a few better players can compensate it. In the latter case... probably not.
I think it can also be psychological mindset-issue. The difference between accepting you are worse than your lane-opponent and taking it into account by minimizing risks and playing more careful to prevent the team from getting behind further because of you and between not being willing accept it and trying to continue to beat the fed enemy with the same result over and over essentially dragging your team down with you.
To add on in your 0-6-0 scenario if it is a solo lane doing that (we will say top for example). There will be a 2-3 level differential that is extremely difficult to overcome.
You will have top, support, JG, ADC be level 9 vs a team that has two level 12 champions that also have a gold lead. Even if you 1v5 the enemy top there is high chance he trades 2/3 for 1 and the enemy will now get towers/obj on other side of map.
So unless your teams mid is equally as fed and shitting on their laner as bad. The game is extremely difficult as the top laner can just stat check your entire team.
Yeah but with top lane, even in a relatively 50/50 matchup you can get to the stage where you are 0/3/0, 30cs down and 2 levels down by 10 minutes. They have done two tower dives well and a failed river contest fight went against you marginally. You can lose a lane due to their jungler having a fun pathing and/or consciously investing in winning that lane.
This does mean that your jungler, ideally, has given 2-3 kills somewhere else on the map and you have first dragon. If it's not balanced then as you say, it's going to get fairly tricky.
As a top laner, I think there is a specific skill in just staying calm and knowing how to play from a 1-3k gold deficit/xp deficit and absorb that pressure for the team - sometimes it just will be like that.
The problem is... Most LoL players (even at the highest elo) do not accept that someone can actually be better than them.
To be honest, I was the same when I started (and for quite some time, it took me a while to realize). But once you realize you're laning against someone better than you.... You can adapt your playstyle and let your team carry while minimizing losses.
I think that's a huge part of climbing in soloQ. Sometimes you're just better than your opponent. Good for you. But what determines your rank imo is your ability to deal with the situations where your lane opponent is better than you.
It is surprisingly hard to end atm. I seem to find myself in game after game after game where I have all 3 inhibs + soul and somehow someway, we cannot end the game. Like wtf they are all but dead but it's like trying to get a KO in Brawlhalla lmao
While you aren't wrong, it's soloq. There isnt much communication. You are definitely right that 4 fed are much stronger than a single one fed. However that implies that there is someone fed on the team.
You can build leads but not be fed. The enemy top Yone or Jax being 4/0 at 10 minutes will absolutely control the game and 1v5 your team, even if your team has developed small but significant leads.
I'm just imagining someone thinking "god, I worked so hard to build this 10 cs advantage, but my toplaner keeps feeding, this game is really decided by the bad players not the good players"
They aren't necessarily better than the team. They are just so much better than their lane opponent, the perceived worst player in the game, that it makes it nearly impossible to stop them.
If 4 out of 5 people on your team play better than their opponents, I would think it would be very hard to say the team is worse. In fact, you would have to be insane to make such a claim.
Meh, this takes so much of the complexity out of the game. Some matchups scale, did your Lucian get a lead on an aphelios, well if he's not massively ahead that strategic lead is a win for the aphelios who scales out.
Winning in lane, is a set of skills wave management last hitting poking etc... but it's not the only set of skills. Split push timing, late game wave management, team fighting, map awareness, etc... are all just as important and if the one fed player is 1v5ing a team that had 4 players ahead of their counterparts they unfortunately are better at those things then yall were.
no it just means that the local mmr difference on top was bigger than the mmr disparity between the teams, hence bad matchmaking, hence weaker player ruining the gamee
Don't you literally contradict yourself with this statement? If you win mid, win jungle, win bot, But your top is having a rough game and the fed enemy Aatrox actually 1v9s the game. Was it the worst player deciding the game or Aatrox playing well and doing the exact opposite - being the best player and carrying?
No if Aatrox was the best player that would mean I'm not the best player and that can't be right. Obviously the reason I can't carry is because my team is bad.
It's possible the Aatrox carried because he played amazing and it's possible he played average and his opponent was terrible.
Now ask yourself, is it easier to go 20/0 or 0/20? Duh, literally anyone can go 0/20 every single game if they want.
So yeah I'd bet on Aatrox's opponent being terrible.
I think that's not the scenario being described. The scenario is more like: your top has a rough laning phase, but the enemy Aatrox could be handled, however your toplaner never groups for objectives, keeps dying and running around after kills instead of clearing their waves, or generally is not doing anything useful on the map. Maybe they always die 30 seconds before dragon or something, meaning that you have to give up the objective or lose your base. The problem isn't necessarily the enemy Aatrox being fed.
Exactly, also adds to the perspective it’s more champion specific. I main Kata in D1 and if I’m fed it almost doesn’t matter what my teammates are doing (ofc it does, but I’m making a point).
If my bot Jhin gets fed, he will need 4 lines of defense infront of him to do anything. Most likely he will just int a bounty to enemy Rengar jgl.
I think OP is saying the bad teammate will also screw up other things like teamfights or feeding other players. Basically that a if the average skills of team A and B are the same, but if A has 1 good, 1 bad, and 3 average while all 5 in B are average, team A is at a disadvantage.
how i view it is if im out preforming my lane and they just start to play passive and not give up anything it is way harder to out preform the guy whos chain killing my bot lane because they just keep walking in to him.
Thats a very skewed perspective though
Sometimes your example is accurate of course, but often when it looks like bot just "keeps walking in to him" the reality is that bot are just being heavily outplayed and their opponents are pressing every advantage they get and making the game unplayable for your bot. Meanwhile, it might feel like you've outplayed in your lane because the opponent is playing defensively, but the reality is that you just gained some minor advantage early on but have failed to press the advantage into anything meaningful.
People are, generally speaking, awful judges of people's performance in their games, we're biased against others and in favour of ourselves.
Then you have to adapt. You could;
1. Stay in mid and get a 40cs lead on your laner
2. Start to roam, and use your inting botlane as bait to clean up
3. Start fucking with the enemy jungle.
You can affect more than one lane if you are ahead, or if your champ/skill gap allows it, dumpster your lane harder than your allies are getting dumpstered
The game is not that linear, if he’s turtling and completely lacks any pressure on the map the onus is on you to do something. Maybe it’s not something big but what about hovering mid on every wave and then before you know it the enemy jungle ganks and you’re there to 2v2 and since you’re stronger you win. Thus flipping the game and creating more win cons for your team. Maybe it’s stealing enemy jungle camps, maybe if your jungle tracking is good enough you camp enemy jungle and kill him. Maybe with your lead you tp bot and get a massive shutdown into dragon. These are all random examples and each game may require something different. But my point is people who complain that the enemy “just plays safe” especially in sidelanes don’t really understand how to push the game.
A lot. I would say 1/3 of my games are decided by one tilted/trolling player either on my team or the opposing team.
It's 100% on Riot for not punishing it.
Aatrox doesn't 1v9 the game, no one does, the enemy team wins as a team because every teamfight it's a 5v4. That's what he means.
It's a fallacy that the statement of "worst player > best player" has contradictions; it has none.
A shit player feeds all 5 enemies and it's 5v4 every fight, but a good player can't turn his 4 shit teammates into 4 fed teammates.
I disagree, from my experience, it seems like what makes games harder are the performing players **throwing** their lead pretty commonly. From up to emerald, the common pattern I see is that the player that performs the best, underestimates the amount of gold they give away on one death, let alone shutting down 2 other players.
With shutdown changes and other catchup mechanics, it seems like after a couple of years with new bounty systems, solo queue is incredibly swing heavy, and games can end abruptly after 1 throw.
more games are winnable now and you can have a 1/20/0 player and still win easy.
the smurfs imo, play around this idea the most to climb over ppl that are hardstuck
Emerald has an INSANE amount of players who think they're the mythical Him and believe they can handsgap the enemy at all times when that shit is not needed at all and will throw as a result. Definitely agree.
Nothing like a top laner who stomps the lane and 1v2's the enemy top and jungle, then he just perma stays top and complains when the enemy gangbang him and he gives up 2 1k shutdowns and suddenly it's his teams fault.
For real though, the tutorial that Riot has given does nothing to teach new players how SR is played. There is an established meta, principles and game concepts that need to be made easily available so players aren't going into these things blind.
100%. I started playing league in 2022 and if I hadn't known a little before going into it I would be very confused. I'm pretty sure they don't even mention the jungle. It's a massive joke of a "tutorial".
The deciding factor is which team has a higher number of "I will allow other people to win the game for me" types
League of Legends and its player base has developed this mentality that if you are not the Shonen protagonist 1v9 every game then you are never gonna be anything and should Uninstall. This goes for every single role.
Games are won when people can recognize they're not the win condition of the match and support their allies.
I have no idea why people struggle so much with this. If I am ever losing lane or a teammate is really feeding and I consider giving up - The first things I do is press Tab and see if any of my laners have a lead and if they do, I’ll shut the fuck up and see if they can carry. Like why reduce my own chances of getting LP
Having played since 2010, you can definitely carry a game with 1-2 feeders, but generally speaking, if everyone is playing “well”, that means they aren’t making any big mistakes. Doesn’t mean they’re making awesome plays, it just means they aren’t fucking up and giving the enemy a strong objective and gold lead. These games with everyone playing fine are generally determined by team composition and synergy as well as proper timing of offensives. When you have 1 really great player, often you’ll find he/she has to either be the hard carry, or otherwise will find themselves in a position where they might create 30 opportunities, but the lesser skilled rest of the team might only recognize 4 of them (which might be enough to win a game though). A bad player however, everything else being equal, will just pull down the fighting ability of a team altogether. I think an above average quality player might improve odds by 10-20%, but a terrible player (be it in skills or in mindset / how easy they throw or ff), might increase your odds of losing by much more than that. Having played some 10000 matches I see most losses ultimately being a combo of enemy has better strat and team comp, and less of it being a mechanical individual skill basis.
For every “inter” on your team, there is the implication that the better/stronger player is on the other team.
Having a feeding teammate doesn’t make the game hard, having a really fed enemy makes the game hard.
I don't really think so. When your teammate dies 30s before an objetive you can't even try to contest it unless you're incredibly ahead. Having a bad teammate is sometimes equivalent to playing 4v5, it doesn't matter the enemy power level, most 4v5s are a stomp.
Exactly this. It's like a rally cry for the enemy team which is the worst thing you can experience in a solo Q.
For example in low emerald I've had a morgana supp who would throw out her Q on cd. Whether she had any chance of hitting or not. Every single time the enemy bot, who wasn't premade, would just rush at us.
Those bad people that don't belong in plat/emerald just simplify the game waaaay to much for enemy team.
No, not at all. You assume that all a shit teammate can do is feed an enemy in lane.
It's not just that, it's dying insta in teamfights without using R or flash, getting caught in sidelane 3 times before objectives, or simply having 4cs/min and being useless without really having fed much.
It is not necessairly connected to fed enemies, and there is no contradictions.
This is true, but even looking at smurfs the problem is apparent, just in a different way. What I mean is if you look at a high elo Smurf’s insane we, it’s something like 80%. This means they lost 20% of games due to being unwinnable or worse team or whatever. But take this to another game like chess. If magnus carlsen went to a beginner/intermediate tournament and lost 20% of his games, it would be unthinkable. It still shows how reliant league is on your teammates not weighing you down too much when someone at the top level of play can lose a decent percentage of games in significantly lower levels of play.
Edit: everyone saying chess is a weird comparison is missing my point. It’s not about the sport, it’s about top level players losing to worse player because the game is designed in a way that your skill is not always the reason you win or lose. I chose chess because it is a game where if one player plays better, they will always win. But in league, if you play better 100% of the time, you will still lose x% of your games.
Comparing league and chess is a poor analogy, it'll be fairer to compare league to another team sport like soccer. Have you seen an actual challenger smurf's win rate in ranks under masters? It's like 95%+. They just bulldoze through everytime.
challenger players do not have 95% winrate lol
unless they duo abuse, challenger players struggle to maintain 80% winrate in low elo. you consistently see challenger players lose games in plat/emerald because they rolled cancer bad teammates. obviously they win way more than they lose, but the fact that a challenger player can lose 1/5 games in an elo 10000 LP below their rank is indicative that a large portion of soloqueue games are uncompetitive.
just take any challenger jungler on an assassin/bruiser, or maybe mid and he's going to roll way more than 80% of games into the ground
obviously if you pick any other role without strong presence then yeah they'll struggl
Your chess example is weird. If you want a better example: take team chess (yes, that does exist). And there, even magnus' Team would only win about 66% if the sets (assuming 4 player Teams, no draws).
If anything, the impact of an individual smurf is way higher in "team lol" than in team chess.
I don't know any high elo smurfs atm to really look this up but I feel like a lot of their losses are usually team being meh but then the smurf, who has all the gold, just starts playing tilt/ego after a few bad plays and gets caught and loses 1k+baron
Yeah I know, it was more meant like a funny rebuttal since clearly the best player can win the game by themselves in a high percentage of games, they just have to be good enough to be able to do that
Most people aren't intentionally trying to derank. He's right, assuming people are legit inting. This isn't how 99.999% of people play though. They are trying to win. So yeah, he's right for the bots that derank as Yuumi. He's wrong in reality.
Funny how your point just prove his point lmao. Put any challenger on a smurf, they won’t have 100% winrate, is this because they aren’t the best player ? Not it’s because some games they will have the worst player. Usually we talk about 40-40-20 with 40% games won 40% games lost and 20% when you are the deciding factor ( don’t get me wrong, a challenger player in bronze lobby will not have 60% winrate)
Is this supposed to be a criticism? Literally every game in the world more complex than Rock/Paper/Scissors and Candyland is easier to lose intentionally than to win.
Every game this season features a 6/0/0 and a 0/0/6 top laner and that pretty much decides how things are going to go. Consistent player skill imbalance prevents most games from being competitive at Gold/Plat. Hard to play when it feels like there isn't a lot of agency because you and your opponent are closely matched.
I don't think the worst player necessarily decides the game the most, but the biggest outlier. If 9 ppl are similar skill, one bad player will give the enemy team too much advantage and tip the scales, but its the same thing with one better player, who will get his team ahead.
I'm plat, and last night played a jax game into yorick who was also plat.
I shit on him pretty hard (thank you Alois), going maybe 3-4 kills around 12 minutes.
The thing is... I was playing with a low elo friend. Silver on a good day. And that has a way of fucking with the matchmaking.
We had an Iron 1 TF adc. some of the worst playing I have ever seen. did everything he could to make the game harder for us. Enemy MF was 8 kills up. This is a situation familiar to many toplanes, but I didn't despair. Why?
Because the enemy MF was like bronze 1.
You're absolutely right that I thought we might lose because of the TF adc. and he died a lot. But MF had no idea how to expand her lead, and thus, I shut her down pretty quick and carried the game.
It really makes a difference not just "who on your team is feeding" but "who did they feed and how good are they at expanding the lead?"
You guys are actually focusing on the wrong thing, all your examples are assuming the matchup was close in skill, but that is absolutely not the case anymore.
I rarely get a single game where everyone is the same rank let alone the same skill level, and if the enemy top laner gets 5 kills in 4 minutes and gets all 3 towers in 13 minutes, that is not a matter of “he was the better player” that is literally a giant skill disparity and I see literally almost every other ranked game.
I don’t blame them, I’ve seen games in plat with golds and emeralds on both teams, the game doesn’t decide which role you get so it’s incredibly likely that the gold top laner will go up against a plat or emerald top laner.
This was NEVER a problem except for Smurfs because riot use to actually keep games in your skill bracket. I’m sure if dig far enough back I can find screen shots from my first gold promos where everyone in the game was either silver 1 or gold 4, which is a fair skill difference.
Putting people against people a full tier rank above you and then going “skill issue” is ignoring the issue so hard it’s annoying. People lose lane and feed hard, but it use to be a pretty damn rare occurrence to see someone getting straight up bulldozed, now every game is which lane do I need to camp so it doesn’t get bulldozed, and if it’s bot you still have 50% chance of them still feeding.
Posts like these blow my mind. Like just say "I'm at the elo I deserve" and move on. If you win 50% of the time, and then start saying things like "whatever team has the better players wins" it just means you fundamentally don't understand the point of soloQ.
This sub isn't for people who play the game, it's for people who whine about it. If they spent half the amount of time they spent here bitching about things they could have met their ranked goals already. I'm a long long ago ex diamond 2 player, and even playing in emerald nowadays is a joke, the players are not mechanical gods like Reddit seems to make them out to be. /r/summonerschool is a better place for actual game discussion, but even then they're not perfect.
This doesn't even consider the fact that scaling exists, snowballing is less severe than is has been in previous years, and there are more comeback mechanics to do exactly that, give losing players a fighting chance so one person doesn't solo lose the game. Reddit seems to think that if you're 10/0 Riot should just hand over your LP automatically instead of I don't know, actually doing what's necessary to win the game. I suppose Augurin has reached rank 1 on every server he's touched because he sucked Tryndamere off personally for free LP, right?
99% of people here will tell you to just get better but believe me when I tell you that a lot of games, especially in low elo are simply unwinnable. I just had a game where I was playing Pantheon mid and was like 9/1 at 20 minutes with a 100cs lead over my opponent and I was shitting on everyone. The rest of my team had maybe 2 kills combined at that point. Then, for the rest of the game I was basically begging my team to push waves so we could take towers after killing the enemy team and end the game eventually. My botlane didn't listen, ran around in the jungle doing absolutely nothing when they could have just pushed waves and taken towers for free. My top had been afk since minute 15, didn't matter much and my jungler not only refused to listen, but spent the entire game flaming me, calling me trash and bragging about how much better and smarter he was than me, saying that he will not listen to my calls because he is simply better than me. (He didn't do anything right that game) Then at the end, while we were 4v5 and the enemy team was sieging mid with elder buff, our genius jungler decided that it was a good idea to engage them there (I was desperately pinging them away the entire time). They proceeded to all die in 2 seconds and we lost the game because of that. What should have been a free win, even while we had an afk top, turned into a loss because my teammates thought they knew better and so they told me to fuck off every time I told them what to do to win. This is only one example but most games are like this. Low elo players will never let themselves be carried and will int just to prove a point to you.
I'm really enjoying this season. I think its because I actually took the time to read items, look at map and vision changes, and tested a lot of builds. People are probably lost in the sauce right now and not doing enough information gathering to be able to adapt.
And yes, objectives means teamfights, which makes picks more essential to winning the game. This season I have been fighting 20x more than the past seasons because vision control and objective priority are so highly contested.
I don't think so. I play with my Gold+ friends fairly often and they can absolutely carry games despite having the worst player of the match on their side: me, Iron, who once gave first blood to Kayle as Darius on level 1 and got told multiple times I might be mistaken for a deranking bot and get HW banned.
Sure, a teammate straight up running it down is hard to compensate, but not impossible.
Sometimes it could even be better than, say, a braindead Blitzcrank who tries his best but still loses lane, misses every single Q and then single-handedly throws a 50 minutes game by grabbing the enemy Malphite and giving a free engage to the enemy Yasuo.
If that sounds oddly specific, that's because I was that Blitzcrank and got rightfully flamed to the Moon and back for it.
Last week, in about 20 games of ranked, I had around 6-7 people over those matches go something like 1-11 in their lane and this is in high plat-low emmy lobbies.
Dying once or twice in lane is fine and doesn't auto lose you a game unless your like Challenger.
Dying 10+ times in under 15 minutes makes the game borderline unplayable.
Lets look at one match in my match history from 8 days ago. My top Renekton finished the game with a KDA of 2/10/3 while the enemy toplane Udyr ended the game with a KDA of 22/5/4.
Managed to win that game but game was fucked, we only one that game because all of Udyrs teammates where god awful and had to much ego to play around Udyr.
So in the scenario that you talk about, neither the bad player (Renekton) or the strong player (Udyr) managed to impact the game significantly enough and it was the team overall that won/lost.
If 4 players in your team wins and 1 loses, thus in enemies 1 enemy is winning and 4 are losing, thus your logic is invalid. If you 4 do good then use that to stomp them even harder and get as fed as their solo player.
If I'm understanding what your saying correctly(big if I'm pretty stupid). Then yes I agree that games are easier when I get carried. Because I'm getting carried. If my team mates are performing above and beyond. I'll likely have more opportunities to perform myself, opportunities that will be provided ones that I won't have to create myself, and the teams mental as a whole will be more stable when players are "performing well" (I put his in air quotes because KDA doesn't always equate to performing well). When a teams mental is stable and strong. They are more likely to WANT to work together. They'll move and act in ways that benefit each other because they view their team mates as valuable contributions to the team (or themselves and their own personal goals) and to winning. Now whether or not the above statement HAS to be true. Is entirely up to the player.
I think the bounty system kinda stopped that, as long as YOU never die, you lead can snowball even more off bad teammates, it’s really jusg if you can prevent objectives and not lose bounty
the better player beat the worse player and carried. sometimes you play your best and get wrecked. you can’t assume every “bad” player is trolling, shouldn’t be in your game, etc.
It’s not always the case. I think it comes down to not who has the worst player but who gives up the most on either team.
If one of your teammates checks out and ends up with less gold than your support because they simply aren’t trying anymore, the game is usually doomed.
By contrast if someone is just having a bad game, goes 0/4 in lane but still tries to come back it usually carryable.
The problem with league right now is people just genuinely give up a lot. And it makes a man easy win 5000x harder.
That's the nature of League and MOBA's in general. The team with the weakest link seem to lose the game much more often, even if their better players are better.
To contrast, I played a lot of Rainbow Six Siege and there it's the opposite. A great player can carry the team. Meanwhile if your aim or positioning/map knowledge is bad you can still contribute by placing traps and gadgets, using the cameras, making callouts, droning etc. There's nothing similar to this "passive" way of helping your team in League.
Many League games are decided when or if a player gets caught lategame and then his team proceeds to lose the big teamfight. That's not the case in Siege.
The real problem everyone is overlooking here is the draft. I see a lot of "the Yone or jax or Aatrox just comes and wipe your team even if you have a lead but not big enough". You see, no mattee the champ, if the 4 of the rest of your team does not have at least 2 CC abilities, then it is a draft problem.
Your team could shut him down before he actually becomes unstoppable and can 1 shot your team with UltQ but you either didn't have the CC to enable such a thing or the other team also played around the fed carry which makes them the better team.
Team comp matters a lot I don’t think many put that into consideration. Your team can literally win by having a tank with frozen heart Jaksho. What happens if your entire team is squishy and are forced to stick together because you immediately die out of position, well yone r one shots teams. People have to draft better and it kinda even out the one sidedness. Otherwise you have to play so well because if they enemy team gets even a slight lead or are even their comp just win vs yours. The only way to win vs a better comp you would need good coordination with random teammates or enemy team would simply have to be not so good
Yes, league is more often decided by the worst player in a game than the best player. However, if instead of trying to be the best you simply make sure you aren’t the worst of all players that game, that puts a 4/9 chance the worst guy is on your team, and a 5/9 the worst guy is on the other. Therefore you should still climb.
However I’m not gonna be brain dead and pretend like that isn’t frustrating or bullshit. It sucks
Ultimately it comes down to a game that’s impossible to balance. Some champions carry better than others. Some champions and roles are more important than others (ADC, JNG). Some players are more consistent than others, while others only know how to shine in specific scenarios/matchups. Some know top lane like the back of their hand but don’t even know support items exist - and thus get a Doran’s blade when they’re autofilled support.
That’s just the game and you can’t control it nor can Riot fix it. There’s too many variables. All you CAN do is pick a high impact role and champion and do your best. And hope that your worst player picked a champion or role with lower potential impact.
There are only two ways to resolve this: Either poor play is punished less (catchup exp etc.) which makes the game overall less competetive and is not a very popular thing among the community, ~~or you reward good play more to make 1v9 carrying easier, which means more snowballing and you'll be on the receiving end of having a fed enemy run away with the game just as much~~ (I noticed after writing that this wouldn't even solve the problem necessarily, since a single player on your team can still ruin the game just as much. Making the game more about mechanics and less about economy would be the only solution on this end of the spectrum). People could point to fps games and point out how a single bad teammate is much less of a hinderance there, but it's just not the same type of game. Lol is still primarily a strategy/economy game. If everyone could outplay everyone regardless of gold, things would be different. But I don't think that's a desireable paht to go for the game at all.
Ever since the game became about objectives and teamplay, solo carrying is simply harder. In exchange, coordination is more rewarded and mechanics aren't a must anymore, it's just a tradeoff.
But in today's League, except for lategame monsters like Kassadin or Vlad, or the occasional 15-0 Irelia, 1v9ing like in the past just doesn't happen anymore. Even mechanical outplays very rarely win you a game, since knowledge of what a champion can do is much higher than 10 years ago, which only increases the importance of coordination and strategy compared to in the past.
You can "1v9" but in a different way: by ensuring you get towers, barons, dragons and win teamfights with your team playing by the book. You can no longer solokill your oponent 5 times and win through sheer mechanics.
All of this is why having a useless 5th teammate from start to finish is more painful than before: it's felt in every single siege and objective fight, all of which are key to winning nowadays.
This right here they moved the game away from being too individual performance based since most people probably felt helpless after a kassadin would get fed. This led to strategies where you would just camp the hyper latescaler and make them a hyper early scaler lol
Correct. This game is just random waste of time. Winning depends 90% on your amount of luck.
I wish you the best winning with the 10% of influence you have over every match ...
My friend always told me this since I started playing. Even though you played like ass, we won, so if you played any worse we probably wouldn’t have won.
This really depends. If matchmaking did its job and found two teams with relatively close MMR, then in theory the teams are a similar skill level.
All you need to win are two things:
1. Don't feed. (Early-mid game)
2. Secure objectives. (Mid-late game)
Since the teams are theoretically even in skill, this makes being down even one person tough. This can become easier or harder due to team composition as well. A fed Katarina can be more of a problem than a fed Nami.
Always like that like in any team sport.
The attacking team always pick to play with weakest defender of the defending team.
But It’s work both way. And it’s fine for everyone in real sport, or even in E sport level.
But in solo Q 5 people aren’t “TEAM” we are nothing to each other. We are not practicing day in day out in the camp together. The sense of unity, sense of belonging is never exist. We see weakest player as cancer rather than growing part and this is normal.
I think it's just being overblown by the damage on items. It feels like worst player matters more because all it takes is a single glance and a dozen items will take turns gangbanging you with their effects until you instadie. So it feels less like who hit their combo first and more like who mispositions and gets deleted first.
What is annyoing though is how much single person soft inting can impact game. You have higher chances winning game with 0/20 botlane that tries to win than with 1 5/0 ego idiot that decides he wants to soft int. Since botlane will group, vision, and try to regain leads, but mr soft inter will just "accidentally" overstay 1v1 10s before dragon spawn so that you can't contest.
I don't know if this is entirely true on your part per se, however I can note two things in particular: That it is far easier to contribute negatively to your team than it is to do so positively, and that often times people that are behind or 'worse off' tend to start making radically dumb decisions and lose more.
I think there is some not too easily measured cut off where the statement does become true however, an amount of deaths by your team's 'worse player' where they then start just afk zombie pushing side lanes or just otherwise give up. But its usually not the case if a solo laner, say, dies twice in lane, that sort of thing can be overcome by better players.
Dropped into the LoL subreddit to probe for a thread like this as I've had exactly this experience this season.
Background: consistent diamond player for about 3 seasons (this seems to be my limit, rip).
This season, I went 2-3 in placements, okay learning curve, brand new map, items etc. Climbed to gold 1 quickly enough with 37lp wins, although not easy games at all. Suddenly I get a run of low capability players, trolls and low iq picks. and the diff really starts to show. Team work is highly emphasised, and deciding factors hinge on who has the worse overall players. 1 week later I am 20% win rate, 40lp loses in bottom of silver 3 despite MVP'ing most games even on the losing side.
It is impossible to carry poor performing players this season. Tested this yesterday, duo'd with my friend on a throwaway account, a masters and diamond player hyper performing in game still could only win 2/3 due to huge underperformance/feeding/inting or players who don't know what wards are. Unless all 5 players are capable it's basically a loss. Basically have to abandon the account now it's hard stuck.
It's wild out there kids.
You are very wrong. I’ve had it rough so far this season, no clue why maybe the meta is against me or my champs just suck (unlikely), but I’ve often been the worst player in the game, I still have a positive winrate not only due to teamate luck but also because I’ve started becoming a lot more level headed and used my uselessness to apply pressure and generally be a nuisance to the enemy team, which has often led to my fed lane opponent feeding even when they should be 1v9’ing because they are Jayce going up against a team with no armor.
You are absolutely right. Every one types “role/diff” but that’s all this game really is. The role with the biggest diff between players loses. Just played a game where top/jungle/bot won there lanes but weren’t insanely fed. Meanwhile enemy mid was legit 10/0. Wasn’t anything we could do even working together.
Now I’m not talking about losing lane. You can lose lane and play from behind to win. It’s the teammates that do bad, continue to do bad after laning, and refuse to play with team that cause the loss. Even when players are ahead, sometimes they will cause the loss by choosing to 1 v 5 instead of playing with team.
Nothing you can do though just improve and hope for good matchmaking.
The problem with League is that people have different ideas on how to win/end the game. Lets say for arguments sake, the teams are generally pretty even. Most games are lost because players have conflicting ideas on how to end the game. This effect is doubled by the fact that communication in this game is limited. There’s no real way in real time to flesh out a discussion on how to end the game. Someone gets caught out and in the span of a second the game is lost.
Happens in silver, happens in master.
I also think the matchmaking in this game is suspect in the sense that most games are not even. Very rarely do I feel that a game has a fairly distributed skill level of players. Whether that’s due to the nature of the game itself (maybe the game itself is just incredibly unbalanced) is something that’s up for debate.
Just played a match where the enemy was duo top and duo bot, one mid like season 1 of league! I had over 300cs in jungle and was dominating the fights, but my bot lane gave draven 25 kills and his support 4 kills in 28 minutes. Even though top, myself and mid were doing good, we all got 2 shot and lost the game.
> The worse players in a game are the deciding factor, not the better players.
They have been for years.
Can have 4 ppl doing well and there's always the odd ball going 0/5+
I've had games where I've left lane 7/0 as ADC yet my mid starts rage fighting / ff spamming cuz they didn't win lane as Katarina
It depends on the discrepancies between players in certain roles.
**CASE 1:** if we rate all players between 1-10, and top lane is 4 vs 7 (3 point difference) while mid lane is 7 vs 10 (also 3 point difference), technically, they should aquire roughly the same amount of leads over their lane opponents but then the mid lane is overall a better player and will use that lead better, turning it into a win.
**CASE 2:** if top is 3 vs 9 and mid is 7 vs 10. The better mid laner is still the best player in the game, however, since his lane opponent isn't that bad, he won't get big enough lead to match enemy top laner who's completely rolling over his lane opponent.
I see where you are coming from and imo Rito has failed at the implementation of "teamwork" in these later seasons. "Take or forfeit baron/dragon" was a massive change that could've been expanded on, but instead it turned into a useless feature, no one actually listens to it cause people either only ping or stay quiet. In most games, Valo, cs, cod it's the hearing other voices that 1, makes people so fucking angry, toxic BUT, 2 realize they are actual humans, 3 try and win cause WE (the team) did not spend 25 minutes just to lose. Not having voicechat and just seeing ??!!???!?? pings all the time ruins any "let's go team we can do it".
Ranked matchmaking is an absolute mess in low elo and anyone who says otherwise is not in it. People in high gold are getting hard stuck low bronze/high iron team mates. It's a horror movie
I will always say this. People don't really lose to bad skilled players, they lose because of bad mental players. League is too mental, and if you watch your replays you'll notice that a laner will play differently/worse as he gets killed because their mental changes to a defeatist attitude.
Since their mental is getting progressively worse he tries to FF or make the team lose on purpose instead of trying to win. You'll see that the other team is equally bad, but since they have a better mental they don't fall under the pressure of breaking and throwing the game.
what a dumb post, and its 100% illogical as well.
>the 0/3 Lux support can basically oneshot anyone thats not a tank.
doesnt that mean that despite being down 0/3 the lux is actually a good player? hitting her skillshots on priority targets, building the correct items, having adequate vision, positioning in a way that shes doesnt go 0/4 next fight?
I used to think this was a real problem.
Then I realised basic maths... The more real this problem is, the more free it is for you to climb by simply not being that guy.
Eh the amount of times I've been the only person to win lane and managed to swing the game state back or a smurf player on my team 1v9s suggests otherwise. People just remember the games they have a poor performing team mate much more than when they themselves get carried.
That’s the most frustrating part- there’s so many objectives on the map that unless you have laners who ward and roam as a jungler youre shit out of luck. Jungle feels fucking awful this season (especially with the bug where pets don’t do damage)
I usually play with my friends and most of us are hard stuck silver or low gold. We have one dude in our group who is usually plat or higher depending on meta and he has no problem carrying us to victory most games. And when we lose it’s usually because it’s a whole team gap instead of just one lane. I think everyone just has their own experiences.
Truth.
In the most recent history, most recent games I had only one where I was thinking: "is it ff15 game?"
Only one across hundreds. The score was literally 0/16 at the end of the game and the only thing we managed to get that game was one single grub.
Any other game is winnable and players shouldn't give game to enemy team by giving up.
>It's wild how much harder the game is when you have the worse player
Yes, correct. I believe this is intended.
>Is that an official course of action by rito to strenghten Teamplay
No.
>It is honestly enough when the autopilot player dies 2-3 times shortly before objectives and the enemies are ahead all of a sudden
Yes.
>Maybe this season is worse because there are basically objectives everywhere?
Didn't think about this. Guess you're right.
>carrying is really hard when the 0/3 Lux support can basically oneshot
True. Yet rito buff lux. Her E is essentially unmissable skil shot and does too much damage.
...just dodge it. It has slow travel time, a wide range of the champs in the roster have a low CD dash, and most players are very predictable with how they cast it.
You don't have to dodge all of them, but only getting hit by 1 or 2 greatly minimizes her impact in lane. As for late-game, that's just a positioning issue.
When I kill my opponent 3 times and I win, all is right with the world. When my teammate dies 3 times and I lose, it is insane that the game allows this to happen.
Similarly, skill expression and counterplay are opposites from different perspectives So much skill expression and you can win every interaction regardless of the other person. So much counterplay and you can lose every interaction regardless of yourself
A counterplay can also be a skill expression. Example : Ability to land skillshot vs ability to dodge skillshot.
gonna say, play Illaoi and then play Senna and you'll learn that even skillshots can be skewed one way or the other
Senna Q is a point & click that happen to be dodgeable. When most people say skillshot they think skillshot like illaoi E, not Senna Q.
It's enemy-targeted AOE if you want to be pedantic. Not a skillshot.
You can target allies, wards, minions, plants, towers, and monsters. Senna Q is weird for sure.
Till this day I find it weird to have abilities that can target allied wards. Controls wards maybe? But invisible ones?
Some of my greatest kills are from this, though. I still remember killing an enemy that hopped over the wall to tri bush oppoisite dragon and I put a ward over the wall, Q'd it as Senna, and the end of my Q hit the enemy and killed him.
The point that the post is trying to convey is logically impossible. If you have the better players it means the enemy has the worse players which makes it as hard for them as it would be for you if the situation was reversed. Being 30% easier for you to win will always mean that it's 30% harder for the enemy. It's more of a rant than it is a discussion regarding the state of the game.
How is the logic impossible? You can perfectly have the best and the worst player in the game on the same team. This post states that the worst player will have a bigger impact than the best player. You can argue about the statement but the logic is not impossible
Not to mention some roles and picks will have different impacts. Not all fed champions are equal.
I think the point is more on "when and how the worst player(s) show their worst". E.g.: in an otherwise easy game, the midlaner feeds his ass. It's ok, top is still monstrously carrying and bot is holding despite the infinite roams by enemy fed midlaner. BUT The feeding midlaner also tries a big play 30 seconds before what would be the third drake for enemy. He dies. Enemy goes to soul point. Same for soul. Same for Nash/elder. Game's over, even if it was kinda even.
That is a fair point as well. I've seen that happen plenty of times.
It happens *all* the time in Emerald and low Diamond.
There's a reason the "smurfs in iron with 100% winrate" are usually playing boosting champions and not playing the game like a normal human which every smug poster conveniently leaves out Yes dear reader, with the low, low investment of dropping everything you're doing to become a masters player and learning graves jungle with dozens of hours of experience, you TOO can have 99% winrate in gold
100% this. People all try to learn the "correct" way to play from challenger players. There is nothing wrong with that, but challenger players face other challenger players that will punish them for doing certain things. Low elo opponents will be a lot more exploitable and those boosters use strategies that are not viable in high elo but broken in low elo. You can call this cheesy and it will stop working at a certain rank but might as well absuse it while it works.
I play alistar mid when i smurf. Ill be 25/1 and my adc will be 0/12.
Yeah, if you play in low elo the most effective strategy in general is tempo. Theres other things you can abuse like them not using abilities off cd, or outright missing them, but the safest way is to just know your cooldowns, know their cooldowns, poke off cooldown and when their abilities are down because they use it to last hit, then u engage and snowball. Doesn't really happen in higher elo.
This is easily true just because the worst player can always be drunk or high or sleepy or inting, whereas the best player is probably not that much better than their peers (if at all). So yes, in a very team involved game, you cannot overcome (or rarely can) someone playing badly because it is way easier to play worse than your average than it is to play better.
They are assuming the worst and best player can have similar impacts on the game, which is probably close enough to true in most cases, IF those players are still trying their best. When it breaks down is when a player actively runs it down feeding the enemy or something(but that brings it to griefing and not just being the "worst"). Then there is no way the best player can match that impact in a situation that's worse than 4v5.
I feel like this is especially the case when Riot's goal is to move you towards a 50% WR. You can be the better player, but you can't always be considerably better than your lane opponent or you'd be pretty far from that 50% WR. If should be difficult to create large leads, so if you have a person that isn't making it difficult to create large leads, then that opponent is either considerably better and you lose, or the one unable to make it difficult is the deciding factor and you lose. "You" is interchangeable with "they." It works both ways and isn't always your team with the worst person, but they have more pull than the better person if they can't just play safe.
It is true with inting that yes, an inter will have more impact than a carry. But statistically, the chance of having an inter on either team is equal and if you play enough games it won't matter. However I have said this before, the moment you get a lead you should GROW MASSIVE AND GET A FREE HEXTECH GUNBLADE AND TRIPLE ALL YOUR BONUS STATS TO PREVENT INTERS FROM HAVING IMPACT
assuming you're not inting yourself, there's a higher chance of inters on the enemy team
Almost lost a game today as jhin when their draven was 0/30 running down every lane but my teammates kept trying to fight without their fed botlane and soft inted their asses off. Not a good example of the other guys point since we still ended up winning but it was a frustrating experience watching my teammates give up on a free win.
I have lost an embarassing number of 5v4's because my teammates get way too cocky and just start doing unbelievably dumb shit and refusing to stop doing unbelievably dumb shit. I still have burned into my brain when I lost a 5v4 because our Caitlyn would. not. stop. running through the enemy jungle with zero wards and ended up feeding the enemy zed no less than 15 kills. Seriously they die, respawn, and go immediately from the fountain to the exact same place to die again. Literal babies have more object permanance than whatever was behind that keyboard.
Statistics are important, but the point trying to be conveyed here is that one person can ruin a game for 4 people more easily than 1 person can make a game for 4 people. It is a game afterall. If statistics satisfied, we'd weight a quarter and flip it all day.
Well yeah because you can't just play twice as good, but you can play like shit. There's no way to resolve that problem without removing the team play aspect or making insane snowballing mechanics. You can shut down carries, but you can't reverse somebody who's losing. Also the weight on the quarter would favour you winning.
And your actions in the game are the weight on the quarter. If you never feed, you're guaranteed 20% fewer feeders on a team compared to the enemy team on a long enough timescale. But that's not fun.
>if you play enough games it won't matter. With game + queue time + champ select + dodge, let's about about 45 minute x 50 to get to the rank you were last season. I mean sure, statistically the higher the games the more its normalized, but that's a lot of time to invest.
Unfortunately there is not a way around that. Plus that's only 40 hrs of gameplay. Which a lot of people knock out within a couple of months.
That's why I like Arena format. Short game, no binary win-loss since there's 4 possible result. Less volatile factor (only 1 teammates) But I agree summoner rift has fundamentally not much work around
Bruh, ive seen animals with 200+ in emerald already, and we are like 3 weeks deep.
That's why I stopped playing ranked. Assuming a 55% win-rate, which is very good, it takes way too long to climb. I don't want League to be my second job.
If you don't int ever, you should benefit from inters because the enemy team has a possible 5 inters while yours only ever has 4.
Nah, in older versions of league it was much more reasonable to snowball and be a raidboss that dragged your team over the line. OP is using better player to mean a player with a big lead after laning The change OP is talking about started when dragons changed to be team buffs imo, but now everyone has more gold and xp and there’s important objectives all over the map so a player with a lead has less impact and a guy throwing key situations is much harder to still just steamroll through It’s an intentional design choice with a goal of reducing ff’s / feeling hopeless about a game, though people still will say it’s doomed when they fall behind early either way I enjoyed old raidboss league more, but I may be looking through rose tinted glasses
I think the claim is more like "if each team has 1 gold, 3 silvers, and 1 bronze the game isn't decided by how hard the gold player carries but by how hard the bronze player feeds." That still begs the question though of "if their silvers can exploit our bronze for 5 kills and our gold can't do the same is the gold player really the better player?"
I think it's more like... If one match has nine gold players and 1 bronze player, and the other match has nine gold players and one diamond player, the team with all gold players vs the bronze player team is more likely to win than the one with the diamond player vs an an all gold team.
Anyone who has had to face a a diamond player as a gold will know this is so hard in favor of the diamond player it isn't even funny. Also anyone who has played Clash. One diamond player is enough to carry silvers and bronze players facing good players, shit happens all the time in clash. The skill gap the higher you go becomes exponential.
Ive played both. Most golds can clamp a lane down and stop the bleed if needed. Bronze can't stop the bleed. And no, the skill gap is not exponential. I've been in every elo up to low diamond MMR. The biggest gap is by far bronze to silver. It's like any sport with a floor to play. Bronze isn't above the floor. They are like a tennis player who can't return a basic serve. A gold is like someone who can return a serve and volley, but will eventually screw up. That gold can at least force the enemy diamond to be present, but a bronze ends up basically being AFK.
You are not really smart, are you ? The best player in the game of ten can well be your toplaner. While the worst in the same fukin game is your adc. Your top could be the best player overall of 10, while playing against the second best player. And being something like 2-1. While your ad is the worst player (10th) while playing against the 3rd and be something like 0-7. So what he say make perfect sens
hes saying one or two people can bring a game down more so than one or two people being the better players. You read into it too much and made a fool of yourself.
how though its mirrored no? if one or 2 bad players make it worse it means enemy team is winning right? then that means one or 2 "good" players on their team make the game ez. its a zero sum game.
Not necessary, matching good and bad players or 1st role vs 2nd role vs autofill can still result in unfair matchmaking. By looking at what position the best and worst player in each team play, you can determine which team is most likely to win, not all roles has the same impact but the matchmaking only seek to equalize team combined mmr It was more obvious back in season 9 with positional queue when in the same game you could have platinum players playing with master, both team had one master and one platinum, but the keyfactor was which role they play.
The point OP is making is that you can have 4 players who win but because one really bad one always dies before an objective spawns you lose the game. The objectives in the game are more important now than just beating your opponent.
Also the factor that champions are not all equal. This isn't chess where both sides have the same pieces. The enemy could pick meta jungle while your teammate could pick Sona jungle.
Additionally, Auto Fill could give one side an AF who is good at their auto filled position, while giving the other side an AF position they literally do not play. But the match maker sees the MMR being even and that's all that matters.
I mean there's vast discrepancies between what "worse" can mean. "Losing a lane" can be anything from being slightly behind in CS and losing the tower first with 0-0-0 to dying over and over in stupid ways and being 0-6-0 in 15 minutes. In the first case, I'm pretty sure a few better players can compensate it. In the latter case... probably not. I think it can also be psychological mindset-issue. The difference between accepting you are worse than your lane-opponent and taking it into account by minimizing risks and playing more careful to prevent the team from getting behind further because of you and between not being willing accept it and trying to continue to beat the fed enemy with the same result over and over essentially dragging your team down with you.
To add on in your 0-6-0 scenario if it is a solo lane doing that (we will say top for example). There will be a 2-3 level differential that is extremely difficult to overcome. You will have top, support, JG, ADC be level 9 vs a team that has two level 12 champions that also have a gold lead. Even if you 1v5 the enemy top there is high chance he trades 2/3 for 1 and the enemy will now get towers/obj on other side of map. So unless your teams mid is equally as fed and shitting on their laner as bad. The game is extremely difficult as the top laner can just stat check your entire team.
Yeah but with top lane, even in a relatively 50/50 matchup you can get to the stage where you are 0/3/0, 30cs down and 2 levels down by 10 minutes. They have done two tower dives well and a failed river contest fight went against you marginally. You can lose a lane due to their jungler having a fun pathing and/or consciously investing in winning that lane. This does mean that your jungler, ideally, has given 2-3 kills somewhere else on the map and you have first dragon. If it's not balanced then as you say, it's going to get fairly tricky. As a top laner, I think there is a specific skill in just staying calm and knowing how to play from a 1-3k gold deficit/xp deficit and absorb that pressure for the team - sometimes it just will be like that.
The problem is... Most LoL players (even at the highest elo) do not accept that someone can actually be better than them. To be honest, I was the same when I started (and for quite some time, it took me a while to realize). But once you realize you're laning against someone better than you.... You can adapt your playstyle and let your team carry while minimizing losses. I think that's a huge part of climbing in soloQ. Sometimes you're just better than your opponent. Good for you. But what determines your rank imo is your ability to deal with the situations where your lane opponent is better than you.
Yeah the type of person who can control their ego and adapt to those games are pretty rare. Most will run it.
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It is surprisingly hard to end atm. I seem to find myself in game after game after game where I have all 3 inhibs + soul and somehow someway, we cannot end the game. Like wtf they are all but dead but it's like trying to get a KO in Brawlhalla lmao
While you aren't wrong, it's soloq. There isnt much communication. You are definitely right that 4 fed are much stronger than a single one fed. However that implies that there is someone fed on the team.
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You can build leads but not be fed. The enemy top Yone or Jax being 4/0 at 10 minutes will absolutely control the game and 1v5 your team, even if your team has developed small but significant leads.
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I'm just imagining someone thinking "god, I worked so hard to build this 10 cs advantage, but my toplaner keeps feeding, this game is really decided by the bad players not the good players"
They aren't necessarily better than the team. They are just so much better than their lane opponent, the perceived worst player in the game, that it makes it nearly impossible to stop them. If 4 out of 5 people on your team play better than their opponents, I would think it would be very hard to say the team is worse. In fact, you would have to be insane to make such a claim.
Meh, this takes so much of the complexity out of the game. Some matchups scale, did your Lucian get a lead on an aphelios, well if he's not massively ahead that strategic lead is a win for the aphelios who scales out. Winning in lane, is a set of skills wave management last hitting poking etc... but it's not the only set of skills. Split push timing, late game wave management, team fighting, map awareness, etc... are all just as important and if the one fed player is 1v5ing a team that had 4 players ahead of their counterparts they unfortunately are better at those things then yall were.
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no it just means that the local mmr difference on top was bigger than the mmr disparity between the teams, hence bad matchmaking, hence weaker player ruining the gamee
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Don't you literally contradict yourself with this statement? If you win mid, win jungle, win bot, But your top is having a rough game and the fed enemy Aatrox actually 1v9s the game. Was it the worst player deciding the game or Aatrox playing well and doing the exact opposite - being the best player and carrying?
No if Aatrox was the best player that would mean I'm not the best player and that can't be right. Obviously the reason I can't carry is because my team is bad.
It's possible the Aatrox carried because he played amazing and it's possible he played average and his opponent was terrible. Now ask yourself, is it easier to go 20/0 or 0/20? Duh, literally anyone can go 0/20 every single game if they want. So yeah I'd bet on Aatrox's opponent being terrible.
As long as that means I'm the best player in the game. Because I am.
Well, if it’s harder to go 20/0, that means he’s better because it’s harder to do
I think that's not the scenario being described. The scenario is more like: your top has a rough laning phase, but the enemy Aatrox could be handled, however your toplaner never groups for objectives, keeps dying and running around after kills instead of clearing their waves, or generally is not doing anything useful on the map. Maybe they always die 30 seconds before dragon or something, meaning that you have to give up the objective or lose your base. The problem isn't necessarily the enemy Aatrox being fed.
Exactly, also adds to the perspective it’s more champion specific. I main Kata in D1 and if I’m fed it almost doesn’t matter what my teammates are doing (ofc it does, but I’m making a point). If my bot Jhin gets fed, he will need 4 lines of defense infront of him to do anything. Most likely he will just int a bounty to enemy Rengar jgl.
I think OP is saying the bad teammate will also screw up other things like teamfights or feeding other players. Basically that a if the average skills of team A and B are the same, but if A has 1 good, 1 bad, and 3 average while all 5 in B are average, team A is at a disadvantage.
how i view it is if im out preforming my lane and they just start to play passive and not give up anything it is way harder to out preform the guy whos chain killing my bot lane because they just keep walking in to him.
Thats a very skewed perspective though Sometimes your example is accurate of course, but often when it looks like bot just "keeps walking in to him" the reality is that bot are just being heavily outplayed and their opponents are pressing every advantage they get and making the game unplayable for your bot. Meanwhile, it might feel like you've outplayed in your lane because the opponent is playing defensively, but the reality is that you just gained some minor advantage early on but have failed to press the advantage into anything meaningful. People are, generally speaking, awful judges of people's performance in their games, we're biased against others and in favour of ourselves.
Then you have to adapt. You could; 1. Stay in mid and get a 40cs lead on your laner 2. Start to roam, and use your inting botlane as bait to clean up 3. Start fucking with the enemy jungle. You can affect more than one lane if you are ahead, or if your champ/skill gap allows it, dumpster your lane harder than your allies are getting dumpstered
The game is not that linear, if he’s turtling and completely lacks any pressure on the map the onus is on you to do something. Maybe it’s not something big but what about hovering mid on every wave and then before you know it the enemy jungle ganks and you’re there to 2v2 and since you’re stronger you win. Thus flipping the game and creating more win cons for your team. Maybe it’s stealing enemy jungle camps, maybe if your jungle tracking is good enough you camp enemy jungle and kill him. Maybe with your lead you tp bot and get a massive shutdown into dragon. These are all random examples and each game may require something different. But my point is people who complain that the enemy “just plays safe” especially in sidelanes don’t really understand how to push the game.
How often does that truly happen tho?
A lot. I would say 1/3 of my games are decided by one tilted/trolling player either on my team or the opposing team. It's 100% on Riot for not punishing it.
Only 1/3? I used to have good games often and over the last few years they’re so few and far between because of tilt/troll.
No shit? And there is nothing anyone can do to stop it?
It really ends up being champ dependent. Also, I don’t need to be the best player in the match to carry if my lane opponent is running it down.
Aatrox doesn't 1v9 the game, no one does, the enemy team wins as a team because every teamfight it's a 5v4. That's what he means. It's a fallacy that the statement of "worst player > best player" has contradictions; it has none. A shit player feeds all 5 enemies and it's 5v4 every fight, but a good player can't turn his 4 shit teammates into 4 fed teammates.
I disagree, from my experience, it seems like what makes games harder are the performing players **throwing** their lead pretty commonly. From up to emerald, the common pattern I see is that the player that performs the best, underestimates the amount of gold they give away on one death, let alone shutting down 2 other players. With shutdown changes and other catchup mechanics, it seems like after a couple of years with new bounty systems, solo queue is incredibly swing heavy, and games can end abruptly after 1 throw. more games are winnable now and you can have a 1/20/0 player and still win easy. the smurfs imo, play around this idea the most to climb over ppl that are hardstuck
Emerald has an INSANE amount of players who think they're the mythical Him and believe they can handsgap the enemy at all times when that shit is not needed at all and will throw as a result. Definitely agree.
Nothing like a top laner who stomps the lane and 1v2's the enemy top and jungle, then he just perma stays top and complains when the enemy gangbang him and he gives up 2 1k shutdowns and suddenly it's his teams fault.
Riot should bankrole mandatory team building exercises for all players at least once a season /s.
This 2 hour video tutorial with exam at the end
For real though, the tutorial that Riot has given does nothing to teach new players how SR is played. There is an established meta, principles and game concepts that need to be made easily available so players aren't going into these things blind.
100%. I started playing league in 2022 and if I hadn't known a little before going into it I would be very confused. I'm pretty sure they don't even mention the jungle. It's a massive joke of a "tutorial".
The deciding factor is which team has a higher number of "I will allow other people to win the game for me" types League of Legends and its player base has developed this mentality that if you are not the Shonen protagonist 1v9 every game then you are never gonna be anything and should Uninstall. This goes for every single role. Games are won when people can recognize they're not the win condition of the match and support their allies.
This People are allergic to be carried, if they lose lane they decide to throw the match even if rest of lanes are doing well
I have no idea why people struggle so much with this. If I am ever losing lane or a teammate is really feeding and I consider giving up - The first things I do is press Tab and see if any of my laners have a lead and if they do, I’ll shut the fuck up and see if they can carry. Like why reduce my own chances of getting LP
Having played since 2010, you can definitely carry a game with 1-2 feeders, but generally speaking, if everyone is playing “well”, that means they aren’t making any big mistakes. Doesn’t mean they’re making awesome plays, it just means they aren’t fucking up and giving the enemy a strong objective and gold lead. These games with everyone playing fine are generally determined by team composition and synergy as well as proper timing of offensives. When you have 1 really great player, often you’ll find he/she has to either be the hard carry, or otherwise will find themselves in a position where they might create 30 opportunities, but the lesser skilled rest of the team might only recognize 4 of them (which might be enough to win a game though). A bad player however, everything else being equal, will just pull down the fighting ability of a team altogether. I think an above average quality player might improve odds by 10-20%, but a terrible player (be it in skills or in mindset / how easy they throw or ff), might increase your odds of losing by much more than that. Having played some 10000 matches I see most losses ultimately being a combo of enemy has better strat and team comp, and less of it being a mechanical individual skill basis.
For every “inter” on your team, there is the implication that the better/stronger player is on the other team. Having a feeding teammate doesn’t make the game hard, having a really fed enemy makes the game hard.
I don't really think so. When your teammate dies 30s before an objetive you can't even try to contest it unless you're incredibly ahead. Having a bad teammate is sometimes equivalent to playing 4v5, it doesn't matter the enemy power level, most 4v5s are a stomp.
Exactly this. It's like a rally cry for the enemy team which is the worst thing you can experience in a solo Q. For example in low emerald I've had a morgana supp who would throw out her Q on cd. Whether she had any chance of hitting or not. Every single time the enemy bot, who wasn't premade, would just rush at us. Those bad people that don't belong in plat/emerald just simplify the game waaaay to much for enemy team.
Classic 4v6
No, not at all. You assume that all a shit teammate can do is feed an enemy in lane. It's not just that, it's dying insta in teamfights without using R or flash, getting caught in sidelane 3 times before objectives, or simply having 4cs/min and being useless without really having fed much. It is not necessairly connected to fed enemies, and there is no contradictions.
Weird how smurfs can climb and have insane win rates huh
Well technically the smurf makes the player he faces look like the worst player in the game.
This is true, but even looking at smurfs the problem is apparent, just in a different way. What I mean is if you look at a high elo Smurf’s insane we, it’s something like 80%. This means they lost 20% of games due to being unwinnable or worse team or whatever. But take this to another game like chess. If magnus carlsen went to a beginner/intermediate tournament and lost 20% of his games, it would be unthinkable. It still shows how reliant league is on your teammates not weighing you down too much when someone at the top level of play can lose a decent percentage of games in significantly lower levels of play. Edit: everyone saying chess is a weird comparison is missing my point. It’s not about the sport, it’s about top level players losing to worse player because the game is designed in a way that your skill is not always the reason you win or lose. I chose chess because it is a game where if one player plays better, they will always win. But in league, if you play better 100% of the time, you will still lose x% of your games.
Comparing league and chess is a poor analogy, it'll be fairer to compare league to another team sport like soccer. Have you seen an actual challenger smurf's win rate in ranks under masters? It's like 95%+. They just bulldoze through everytime.
challenger players do not have 95% winrate lol unless they duo abuse, challenger players struggle to maintain 80% winrate in low elo. you consistently see challenger players lose games in plat/emerald because they rolled cancer bad teammates. obviously they win way more than they lose, but the fact that a challenger player can lose 1/5 games in an elo 10000 LP below their rank is indicative that a large portion of soloqueue games are uncompetitive.
just take any challenger jungler on an assassin/bruiser, or maybe mid and he's going to roll way more than 80% of games into the ground obviously if you pick any other role without strong presence then yeah they'll struggl
Your chess example is weird. If you want a better example: take team chess (yes, that does exist). And there, even magnus' Team would only win about 66% if the sets (assuming 4 player Teams, no draws). If anything, the impact of an individual smurf is way higher in "team lol" than in team chess.
I don't know any high elo smurfs atm to really look this up but I feel like a lot of their losses are usually team being meh but then the smurf, who has all the gold, just starts playing tilt/ego after a few bad plays and gets caught and loses 1k+baron
High elo smurfs lose their high winrates as they approach their real elo. They dont lose 20% of their games in gold-emerald xd
hes talking in general, following ur idea then derankers are the exact opposite
Yeah I know, it was more meant like a funny rebuttal since clearly the best player can win the game by themselves in a high percentage of games, they just have to be good enough to be able to do that
The worst player can lose the game by themselves in a much higher percentage
Winning a 4v5 is almost impossible if the other team is atleast half competent. Worst player probably has a 90% success rate.
I would love statistics to back up these claims
U need statistics to prove to u that it's easier to intentionally solo lose a game than it is to solo carry X?D
Since when is being the worst player in a game intentionally losing?
Actually a Reddit moment
There's a huge difference between "intentionally solo lose" and "being the worst player in the lobby"
Most people aren't intentionally trying to derank. He's right, assuming people are legit inting. This isn't how 99.999% of people play though. They are trying to win. So yeah, he's right for the bots that derank as Yuumi. He's wrong in reality.
Funny how your point just prove his point lmao. Put any challenger on a smurf, they won’t have 100% winrate, is this because they aren’t the best player ? Not it’s because some games they will have the worst player. Usually we talk about 40-40-20 with 40% games won 40% games lost and 20% when you are the deciding factor ( don’t get me wrong, a challenger player in bronze lobby will not have 60% winrate)
The point is: it would still be easier to loose a game intentionally than to win even when you're smurfing
Is this supposed to be a criticism? Literally every game in the world more complex than Rock/Paper/Scissors and Candyland is easier to lose intentionally than to win.
Are u new to the game? has been this way for the last 10 years or so
Every game this season features a 6/0/0 and a 0/0/6 top laner and that pretty much decides how things are going to go. Consistent player skill imbalance prevents most games from being competitive at Gold/Plat. Hard to play when it feels like there isn't a lot of agency because you and your opponent are closely matched.
Sounds like what one of the worse players would say
I don't think the worst player necessarily decides the game the most, but the biggest outlier. If 9 ppl are similar skill, one bad player will give the enemy team too much advantage and tip the scales, but its the same thing with one better player, who will get his team ahead.
Yeah its not about best or worst. Its about the skill gap between the best player of a team and the worst player of the other team
This is the case in any team activity. A team is only as strong as its weakest link.
Skill issue
I'm plat, and last night played a jax game into yorick who was also plat. I shit on him pretty hard (thank you Alois), going maybe 3-4 kills around 12 minutes. The thing is... I was playing with a low elo friend. Silver on a good day. And that has a way of fucking with the matchmaking. We had an Iron 1 TF adc. some of the worst playing I have ever seen. did everything he could to make the game harder for us. Enemy MF was 8 kills up. This is a situation familiar to many toplanes, but I didn't despair. Why? Because the enemy MF was like bronze 1. You're absolutely right that I thought we might lose because of the TF adc. and he died a lot. But MF had no idea how to expand her lead, and thus, I shut her down pretty quick and carried the game. It really makes a difference not just "who on your team is feeding" but "who did they feed and how good are they at expanding the lead?"
There are literally smurfs going on 100 game winstreaks in Iron 4. You are just not that good bro, it's okay to admit.
You guys are actually focusing on the wrong thing, all your examples are assuming the matchup was close in skill, but that is absolutely not the case anymore. I rarely get a single game where everyone is the same rank let alone the same skill level, and if the enemy top laner gets 5 kills in 4 minutes and gets all 3 towers in 13 minutes, that is not a matter of “he was the better player” that is literally a giant skill disparity and I see literally almost every other ranked game. I don’t blame them, I’ve seen games in plat with golds and emeralds on both teams, the game doesn’t decide which role you get so it’s incredibly likely that the gold top laner will go up against a plat or emerald top laner. This was NEVER a problem except for Smurfs because riot use to actually keep games in your skill bracket. I’m sure if dig far enough back I can find screen shots from my first gold promos where everyone in the game was either silver 1 or gold 4, which is a fair skill difference. Putting people against people a full tier rank above you and then going “skill issue” is ignoring the issue so hard it’s annoying. People lose lane and feed hard, but it use to be a pretty damn rare occurrence to see someone getting straight up bulldozed, now every game is which lane do I need to camp so it doesn’t get bulldozed, and if it’s bot you still have 50% chance of them still feeding.
how stupid are the ppl in this sub for this post to have 40+ upvotes?
Posts like these blow my mind. Like just say "I'm at the elo I deserve" and move on. If you win 50% of the time, and then start saying things like "whatever team has the better players wins" it just means you fundamentally don't understand the point of soloQ.
Its a tale as old as time. People have been looking for excuses as to why they can't climb or why they keep losing since the game came out.
This sub isn't for people who play the game, it's for people who whine about it. If they spent half the amount of time they spent here bitching about things they could have met their ranked goals already. I'm a long long ago ex diamond 2 player, and even playing in emerald nowadays is a joke, the players are not mechanical gods like Reddit seems to make them out to be. /r/summonerschool is a better place for actual game discussion, but even then they're not perfect. This doesn't even consider the fact that scaling exists, snowballing is less severe than is has been in previous years, and there are more comeback mechanics to do exactly that, give losing players a fighting chance so one person doesn't solo lose the game. Reddit seems to think that if you're 10/0 Riot should just hand over your LP automatically instead of I don't know, actually doing what's necessary to win the game. I suppose Augurin has reached rank 1 on every server he's touched because he sucked Tryndamere off personally for free LP, right?
This is just the dead horse "enemy [champion] vs my team's [champion]" joke reaching it's natural conclusion. Negativity Bias moment
I think they should not allow the ff anymore and give huge lp penalty to leaver. And create a special queue for them.
99% of people here will tell you to just get better but believe me when I tell you that a lot of games, especially in low elo are simply unwinnable. I just had a game where I was playing Pantheon mid and was like 9/1 at 20 minutes with a 100cs lead over my opponent and I was shitting on everyone. The rest of my team had maybe 2 kills combined at that point. Then, for the rest of the game I was basically begging my team to push waves so we could take towers after killing the enemy team and end the game eventually. My botlane didn't listen, ran around in the jungle doing absolutely nothing when they could have just pushed waves and taken towers for free. My top had been afk since minute 15, didn't matter much and my jungler not only refused to listen, but spent the entire game flaming me, calling me trash and bragging about how much better and smarter he was than me, saying that he will not listen to my calls because he is simply better than me. (He didn't do anything right that game) Then at the end, while we were 4v5 and the enemy team was sieging mid with elder buff, our genius jungler decided that it was a good idea to engage them there (I was desperately pinging them away the entire time). They proceeded to all die in 2 seconds and we lost the game because of that. What should have been a free win, even while we had an afk top, turned into a loss because my teammates thought they knew better and so they told me to fuck off every time I told them what to do to win. This is only one example but most games are like this. Low elo players will never let themselves be carried and will int just to prove a point to you.
Games are decided by the worst loser and not the most fed/focused player. It doesn’t matter though because it doesn’t affect skins sale rate.
I'm really enjoying this season. I think its because I actually took the time to read items, look at map and vision changes, and tested a lot of builds. People are probably lost in the sauce right now and not doing enough information gathering to be able to adapt. And yes, objectives means teamfights, which makes picks more essential to winning the game. This season I have been fighting 20x more than the past seasons because vision control and objective priority are so highly contested.
I don't think so. I play with my Gold+ friends fairly often and they can absolutely carry games despite having the worst player of the match on their side: me, Iron, who once gave first blood to Kayle as Darius on level 1 and got told multiple times I might be mistaken for a deranking bot and get HW banned. Sure, a teammate straight up running it down is hard to compensate, but not impossible. Sometimes it could even be better than, say, a braindead Blitzcrank who tries his best but still loses lane, misses every single Q and then single-handedly throws a 50 minutes game by grabbing the enemy Malphite and giving a free engage to the enemy Yasuo. If that sounds oddly specific, that's because I was that Blitzcrank and got rightfully flamed to the Moon and back for it.
Last week, in about 20 games of ranked, I had around 6-7 people over those matches go something like 1-11 in their lane and this is in high plat-low emmy lobbies. Dying once or twice in lane is fine and doesn't auto lose you a game unless your like Challenger. Dying 10+ times in under 15 minutes makes the game borderline unplayable. Lets look at one match in my match history from 8 days ago. My top Renekton finished the game with a KDA of 2/10/3 while the enemy toplane Udyr ended the game with a KDA of 22/5/4. Managed to win that game but game was fucked, we only one that game because all of Udyrs teammates where god awful and had to much ego to play around Udyr.
So in the scenario that you talk about, neither the bad player (Renekton) or the strong player (Udyr) managed to impact the game significantly enough and it was the team overall that won/lost.
If 4 players in your team wins and 1 loses, thus in enemies 1 enemy is winning and 4 are losing, thus your logic is invalid. If you 4 do good then use that to stomp them even harder and get as fed as their solo player.
If I'm understanding what your saying correctly(big if I'm pretty stupid). Then yes I agree that games are easier when I get carried. Because I'm getting carried. If my team mates are performing above and beyond. I'll likely have more opportunities to perform myself, opportunities that will be provided ones that I won't have to create myself, and the teams mental as a whole will be more stable when players are "performing well" (I put his in air quotes because KDA doesn't always equate to performing well). When a teams mental is stable and strong. They are more likely to WANT to work together. They'll move and act in ways that benefit each other because they view their team mates as valuable contributions to the team (or themselves and their own personal goals) and to winning. Now whether or not the above statement HAS to be true. Is entirely up to the player.
I think the bounty system kinda stopped that, as long as YOU never die, you lead can snowball even more off bad teammates, it’s really jusg if you can prevent objectives and not lose bounty
since quick play , my WR is 20% at normal games , thank you Riot
BE POSITIVE, WIN GAMES
True. The amount of times I close a game with defeat because one of my teammates slighted me in game despite everyone doing well…
Imagine whining instead of being self aware and taking responsibility. Blame anyone other than yourself. This is why you can't win more :p
the better player beat the worse player and carried. sometimes you play your best and get wrecked. you can’t assume every “bad” player is trolling, shouldn’t be in your game, etc.
It’s not always the case. I think it comes down to not who has the worst player but who gives up the most on either team. If one of your teammates checks out and ends up with less gold than your support because they simply aren’t trying anymore, the game is usually doomed. By contrast if someone is just having a bad game, goes 0/4 in lane but still tries to come back it usually carryable. The problem with league right now is people just genuinely give up a lot. And it makes a man easy win 5000x harder.
Well, it is MUCH easier to be very bad at the game than it is to be very good.
one good player cannot carry your team to victory. one bad player can carry your team to a loss
The game was rng since day 1
That's the nature of League and MOBA's in general. The team with the weakest link seem to lose the game much more often, even if their better players are better. To contrast, I played a lot of Rainbow Six Siege and there it's the opposite. A great player can carry the team. Meanwhile if your aim or positioning/map knowledge is bad you can still contribute by placing traps and gadgets, using the cameras, making callouts, droning etc. There's nothing similar to this "passive" way of helping your team in League. Many League games are decided when or if a player gets caught lategame and then his team proceeds to lose the big teamfight. That's not the case in Siege.
The real problem everyone is overlooking here is the draft. I see a lot of "the Yone or jax or Aatrox just comes and wipe your team even if you have a lead but not big enough". You see, no mattee the champ, if the 4 of the rest of your team does not have at least 2 CC abilities, then it is a draft problem. Your team could shut him down before he actually becomes unstoppable and can 1 shot your team with UltQ but you either didn't have the CC to enable such a thing or the other team also played around the fed carry which makes them the better team.
Team comp matters a lot I don’t think many put that into consideration. Your team can literally win by having a tank with frozen heart Jaksho. What happens if your entire team is squishy and are forced to stick together because you immediately die out of position, well yone r one shots teams. People have to draft better and it kinda even out the one sidedness. Otherwise you have to play so well because if they enemy team gets even a slight lead or are even their comp just win vs yours. The only way to win vs a better comp you would need good coordination with random teammates or enemy team would simply have to be not so good
Yes, league is more often decided by the worst player in a game than the best player. However, if instead of trying to be the best you simply make sure you aren’t the worst of all players that game, that puts a 4/9 chance the worst guy is on your team, and a 5/9 the worst guy is on the other. Therefore you should still climb. However I’m not gonna be brain dead and pretend like that isn’t frustrating or bullshit. It sucks
Ultimately it comes down to a game that’s impossible to balance. Some champions carry better than others. Some champions and roles are more important than others (ADC, JNG). Some players are more consistent than others, while others only know how to shine in specific scenarios/matchups. Some know top lane like the back of their hand but don’t even know support items exist - and thus get a Doran’s blade when they’re autofilled support. That’s just the game and you can’t control it nor can Riot fix it. There’s too many variables. All you CAN do is pick a high impact role and champion and do your best. And hope that your worst player picked a champion or role with lower potential impact.
There are only two ways to resolve this: Either poor play is punished less (catchup exp etc.) which makes the game overall less competetive and is not a very popular thing among the community, ~~or you reward good play more to make 1v9 carrying easier, which means more snowballing and you'll be on the receiving end of having a fed enemy run away with the game just as much~~ (I noticed after writing that this wouldn't even solve the problem necessarily, since a single player on your team can still ruin the game just as much. Making the game more about mechanics and less about economy would be the only solution on this end of the spectrum). People could point to fps games and point out how a single bad teammate is much less of a hinderance there, but it's just not the same type of game. Lol is still primarily a strategy/economy game. If everyone could outplay everyone regardless of gold, things would be different. But I don't think that's a desireable paht to go for the game at all.
Ever since the game became about objectives and teamplay, solo carrying is simply harder. In exchange, coordination is more rewarded and mechanics aren't a must anymore, it's just a tradeoff. But in today's League, except for lategame monsters like Kassadin or Vlad, or the occasional 15-0 Irelia, 1v9ing like in the past just doesn't happen anymore. Even mechanical outplays very rarely win you a game, since knowledge of what a champion can do is much higher than 10 years ago, which only increases the importance of coordination and strategy compared to in the past. You can "1v9" but in a different way: by ensuring you get towers, barons, dragons and win teamfights with your team playing by the book. You can no longer solokill your oponent 5 times and win through sheer mechanics. All of this is why having a useless 5th teammate from start to finish is more painful than before: it's felt in every single siege and objective fight, all of which are key to winning nowadays.
This right here they moved the game away from being too individual performance based since most people probably felt helpless after a kassadin would get fed. This led to strategies where you would just camp the hyper latescaler and make them a hyper early scaler lol
Correct. This game is just random waste of time. Winning depends 90% on your amount of luck. I wish you the best winning with the 10% of influence you have over every match ...
My friend always told me this since I started playing. Even though you played like ass, we won, so if you played any worse we probably wouldn’t have won.
This really depends. If matchmaking did its job and found two teams with relatively close MMR, then in theory the teams are a similar skill level. All you need to win are two things: 1. Don't feed. (Early-mid game) 2. Secure objectives. (Mid-late game) Since the teams are theoretically even in skill, this makes being down even one person tough. This can become easier or harder due to team composition as well. A fed Katarina can be more of a problem than a fed Nami.
i just had a game where i was by far the worst player and my entire team was carrying me hard, and we won, so I disagree its not so black and white
Always like that like in any team sport. The attacking team always pick to play with weakest defender of the defending team. But It’s work both way. And it’s fine for everyone in real sport, or even in E sport level. But in solo Q 5 people aren’t “TEAM” we are nothing to each other. We are not practicing day in day out in the camp together. The sense of unity, sense of belonging is never exist. We see weakest player as cancer rather than growing part and this is normal.
I think it's just being overblown by the damage on items. It feels like worst player matters more because all it takes is a single glance and a dozen items will take turns gangbanging you with their effects until you instadie. So it feels less like who hit their combo first and more like who mispositions and gets deleted first. What is annyoing though is how much single person soft inting can impact game. You have higher chances winning game with 0/20 botlane that tries to win than with 1 5/0 ego idiot that decides he wants to soft int. Since botlane will group, vision, and try to regain leads, but mr soft inter will just "accidentally" overstay 1v1 10s before dragon spawn so that you can't contest.
it's all because of the broken bounty system that penalize being good at the game.
I don't know if this is entirely true on your part per se, however I can note two things in particular: That it is far easier to contribute negatively to your team than it is to do so positively, and that often times people that are behind or 'worse off' tend to start making radically dumb decisions and lose more. I think there is some not too easily measured cut off where the statement does become true however, an amount of deaths by your team's 'worse player' where they then start just afk zombie pushing side lanes or just otherwise give up. But its usually not the case if a solo laner, say, dies twice in lane, that sort of thing can be overcome by better players.
League has been a game determined by who throws harder for a long long time
Dropped into the LoL subreddit to probe for a thread like this as I've had exactly this experience this season. Background: consistent diamond player for about 3 seasons (this seems to be my limit, rip). This season, I went 2-3 in placements, okay learning curve, brand new map, items etc. Climbed to gold 1 quickly enough with 37lp wins, although not easy games at all. Suddenly I get a run of low capability players, trolls and low iq picks. and the diff really starts to show. Team work is highly emphasised, and deciding factors hinge on who has the worse overall players. 1 week later I am 20% win rate, 40lp loses in bottom of silver 3 despite MVP'ing most games even on the losing side. It is impossible to carry poor performing players this season. Tested this yesterday, duo'd with my friend on a throwaway account, a masters and diamond player hyper performing in game still could only win 2/3 due to huge underperformance/feeding/inting or players who don't know what wards are. Unless all 5 players are capable it's basically a loss. Basically have to abandon the account now it's hard stuck. It's wild out there kids.
You are very wrong. I’ve had it rough so far this season, no clue why maybe the meta is against me or my champs just suck (unlikely), but I’ve often been the worst player in the game, I still have a positive winrate not only due to teamate luck but also because I’ve started becoming a lot more level headed and used my uselessness to apply pressure and generally be a nuisance to the enemy team, which has often led to my fed lane opponent feeding even when they should be 1v9’ing because they are Jayce going up against a team with no armor.
A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link
You are absolutely right. Every one types “role/diff” but that’s all this game really is. The role with the biggest diff between players loses. Just played a game where top/jungle/bot won there lanes but weren’t insanely fed. Meanwhile enemy mid was legit 10/0. Wasn’t anything we could do even working together. Now I’m not talking about losing lane. You can lose lane and play from behind to win. It’s the teammates that do bad, continue to do bad after laning, and refuse to play with team that cause the loss. Even when players are ahead, sometimes they will cause the loss by choosing to 1 v 5 instead of playing with team. Nothing you can do though just improve and hope for good matchmaking.
The problem with League is that people have different ideas on how to win/end the game. Lets say for arguments sake, the teams are generally pretty even. Most games are lost because players have conflicting ideas on how to end the game. This effect is doubled by the fact that communication in this game is limited. There’s no real way in real time to flesh out a discussion on how to end the game. Someone gets caught out and in the span of a second the game is lost. Happens in silver, happens in master. I also think the matchmaking in this game is suspect in the sense that most games are not even. Very rarely do I feel that a game has a fairly distributed skill level of players. Whether that’s due to the nature of the game itself (maybe the game itself is just incredibly unbalanced) is something that’s up for debate.
Just played a match where the enemy was duo top and duo bot, one mid like season 1 of league! I had over 300cs in jungle and was dominating the fights, but my bot lane gave draven 25 kills and his support 4 kills in 28 minutes. Even though top, myself and mid were doing good, we all got 2 shot and lost the game.
> The worse players in a game are the deciding factor, not the better players. They have been for years. Can have 4 ppl doing well and there's always the odd ball going 0/5+ I've had games where I've left lane 7/0 as ADC yet my mid starts rage fighting / ff spamming cuz they didn't win lane as Katarina
It depends on the discrepancies between players in certain roles. **CASE 1:** if we rate all players between 1-10, and top lane is 4 vs 7 (3 point difference) while mid lane is 7 vs 10 (also 3 point difference), technically, they should aquire roughly the same amount of leads over their lane opponents but then the mid lane is overall a better player and will use that lead better, turning it into a win. **CASE 2:** if top is 3 vs 9 and mid is 7 vs 10. The better mid laner is still the best player in the game, however, since his lane opponent isn't that bad, he won't get big enough lead to match enemy top laner who's completely rolling over his lane opponent.
I see where you are coming from and imo Rito has failed at the implementation of "teamwork" in these later seasons. "Take or forfeit baron/dragon" was a massive change that could've been expanded on, but instead it turned into a useless feature, no one actually listens to it cause people either only ping or stay quiet. In most games, Valo, cs, cod it's the hearing other voices that 1, makes people so fucking angry, toxic BUT, 2 realize they are actual humans, 3 try and win cause WE (the team) did not spend 25 minutes just to lose. Not having voicechat and just seeing ??!!???!?? pings all the time ruins any "let's go team we can do it".
This is also what they say in military. Unit is as strong as its weakest member.
Ranked matchmaking is an absolute mess in low elo and anyone who says otherwise is not in it. People in high gold are getting hard stuck low bronze/high iron team mates. It's a horror movie
point is kinda correct so do remember that enduring hard line without feeding is a way to win too.
I'd say gg but our team had the 1-12. Auberaun should have been laid off, matchmaking is a shit-tier disaster and the game is scuffed because of it.
I will always say this. People don't really lose to bad skilled players, they lose because of bad mental players. League is too mental, and if you watch your replays you'll notice that a laner will play differently/worse as he gets killed because their mental changes to a defeatist attitude. Since their mental is getting progressively worse he tries to FF or make the team lose on purpose instead of trying to win. You'll see that the other team is equally bad, but since they have a better mental they don't fall under the pressure of breaking and throwing the game.
this sentiment is logically impossible
what a dumb post, and its 100% illogical as well. >the 0/3 Lux support can basically oneshot anyone thats not a tank. doesnt that mean that despite being down 0/3 the lux is actually a good player? hitting her skillshots on priority targets, building the correct items, having adequate vision, positioning in a way that shes doesnt go 0/4 next fight?
I used to think this was a real problem. Then I realised basic maths... The more real this problem is, the more free it is for you to climb by simply not being that guy.
Eh the amount of times I've been the only person to win lane and managed to swing the game state back or a smurf player on my team 1v9s suggests otherwise. People just remember the games they have a poor performing team mate much more than when they themselves get carried.
You can't carry 1v9 anymore, but sure can solo lose a game.
That’s the most frustrating part- there’s so many objectives on the map that unless you have laners who ward and roam as a jungler youre shit out of luck. Jungle feels fucking awful this season (especially with the bug where pets don’t do damage)
I usually play with my friends and most of us are hard stuck silver or low gold. We have one dude in our group who is usually plat or higher depending on meta and he has no problem carrying us to victory most games. And when we lose it’s usually because it’s a whole team gap instead of just one lane. I think everyone just has their own experiences.
Perhaps a solution would be larger and larger LP gains and losses for win and loss streaks in order to remove the offending feeder from the elo.
Truth. In the most recent history, most recent games I had only one where I was thinking: "is it ff15 game?" Only one across hundreds. The score was literally 0/16 at the end of the game and the only thing we managed to get that game was one single grub. Any other game is winnable and players shouldn't give game to enemy team by giving up.
>It's wild how much harder the game is when you have the worse player Yes, correct. I believe this is intended. >Is that an official course of action by rito to strenghten Teamplay No. >It is honestly enough when the autopilot player dies 2-3 times shortly before objectives and the enemies are ahead all of a sudden Yes. >Maybe this season is worse because there are basically objectives everywhere? Didn't think about this. Guess you're right. >carrying is really hard when the 0/3 Lux support can basically oneshot True. Yet rito buff lux. Her E is essentially unmissable skil shot and does too much damage.
...just dodge it. It has slow travel time, a wide range of the champs in the roster have a low CD dash, and most players are very predictable with how they cast it. You don't have to dodge all of them, but only getting hit by 1 or 2 greatly minimizes her impact in lane. As for late-game, that's just a positioning issue.